Open Phones After LDS General Conference

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No 2nd Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

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Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

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Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360. That's 602 -274 -1360

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Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

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That's 1 -888 -550 -1360 And now with today's topic, here's

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James White and good afternoon and welcome to the dividing line My name is James White. It's a beautiful Saturday afternoon.

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We have survived Six nights now out in Mesa, Arizona at the

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Easter pageant of the LDS Church And I think the term survived is probably an acceptable term in light of some of the incidents this week

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It has been quite interesting There have been some quiet evenings But there have also been some very interesting evenings as far as conversations go and some of you may have had the opportunity

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Of hearing some of the straight talk live programs that aired live from Mesa the last four evenings

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Marty Minto was out there and I was being told last evening when I was on the air that they had the

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Speakers up so loud that across the street where we do most of our tracting at the corner of Maine and Hobson in Mesa That everything that was being said including the discussion of the

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Mormon Jesus and so on and so forth Was very very easily heard and there were some very interesting reactions from the folks that were listening.

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So It has proved to be an interesting week. And today we are basically going to have open phones, you know

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The Bible answer man comes on the air and then just takes whatever calls come his direction

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So sort of open phones today if you'd like to get online at 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360 you can do that you also if you would like there's two other ways of getting a hold of us and That is on AOL instant message.

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I am online right now In fact, you may hear little dings and dongs going off on my computer next to me

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I'm online as ortho poe de oh now, you know I I think I need a shorter screen name because most people go.

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Yeah, I'd love to contact you However, I can't remember that screen name ortho is o r -t -h -o poe de oh is p -o -d -e -o

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It is one word. It is a Greek verb meaning to walk straight in accordance with the rule and we are at AOL instant message right now, in fact,

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I'm being bothered by a Roman Catholic apologist from Florida right now on AOL instant message who will remain nameless because he'd be very happy if I actually named him on the air, but We're also in our worldwide chat room

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Prasapala Ghian if you want to Ask some questions in there, please realize that I don't sit here staring at that screen

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So if you don't hear an answer or something, you might want to repeat the question but we are available in our online chat room

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Prasapala Ghian in the internet in instructions on how to get in there on our webpage at www .aomin

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.org Now today I have a special guest in studio with me and someone who has been working with us out in in Mesa for the past a couple of evenings and The whole story of how we got together is an is an illustration of the well, how should we call it the the electronic means of ministry,

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I guess Eddie D 'Alcour is with me Eddie is The is it the official title president president president of the

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Department of Christian Defense? Where did you all right? Come on. Where did you where did you come up with the Department of Christian Defense Department of Defense?

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well, I started I wanted to define what my ministry was all about and I think it's all about defending the gospel of Jesus Christ and I wanted a have really impact on my name so I thought

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Department of Christian Defense because I know that there's other departments of Defense in the military, right?

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And so I thought of that for my Christian. Well, I like that that's that's an interesting name and so I would like to Introduce Edina some folks are trying to send me some files and stuff can't accept files on the online right now those are you trying to send me something like that because it could be a bad thing, but Now you deal with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses you're you're especially concerned about the the how do we put it the the encroachment of modalism into mainstream evangelicalism

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But you have a very unique Perspective you've seen this probably a whole lot more than I have

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Because you see a much wider spectrum of what's called evangelicalism or Christianity in the

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United States and around the world You've were just in Australia. You've been in Russia all over the place now

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Have you been there as a part of the Department of Christian Defense or is there something else that brings you to these far -flung?

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Places. Well, there is something else that brings me all around the world and I'm a member of John Jacobs and the power team right, and if you ever seen our show, we're

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Athletes who go around the world we break bricks with our elbows and our hands we kick through things To get people in so we can give our testimonies and give a message of Jesus Christ Right, so that gives us an opportunity to travel all around the world and we go to all kinds of churches

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I'm from the most conservative to the most charismatic. So We see every end of the spectrum and you've seen probably a lot of things in that traveling.

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That's We're not easy to to observe. I would imagine Teaching and things like that.

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I have seen a lot of things particularly make me uncomfortable Particularly what's so pervasive in this country, which is modalism

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For someone who's not familiar with that word They are the Jesus only churches or one of the largest churches

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UPC International It's a heretical view that emerged in the second century and basically what they would assert that God is one person

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They assert a unipersonal God God comes out as different modes or different dimensions or different manifestations

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But to be sure they reject Jesus Christ as a distinct person That's why there yeah, that's why they would be coined

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That's why we would label them as non -christian because they deny the person of Jesus Christ and yet There is a growing acceptance of this type of heresy, especially because many of those who promote it are very popular

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TD Jake's members of Phillips Craig and Dean the singing group as I recall the the

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Rambos came out of a oneness background as well and Quite honestly for most people there's so little specificity in the gospel that is preached in our land that the idea of Well as they put it getting hung up on what sounds like such a

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Difficult little issue regarding well three persons one person acting in three well, you know, what does it really matter as long as you say

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Jesus three times everything is wonderful and Therefore since the idea of knowing the truth about who

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God is is not the first priority Then it's easy to Grasp hands across the aisle shall we say and let's say, you know

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It's sing kumbaya and and go on and do more important things What I what I hear especially when

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I when I deal with modalism is The first response I hear for most Christian is look.

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I mean, aren't you really talking about semantics? I mean manifestation person so on and so forth however, if I Started teaching about their wife or their husband that they were half amphibious.

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They'd be very upset and Half amphibious, you know, and I started put on my website.

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I started Publicly teaching that their wife was half amphibious then they'd be upset right? But anytime someone

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Misrepresents Jesus Christ. It seems like the model in 20th century is don't give up a fight because someone might get upset

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And it is these are distinctive differences. Yes most definitely well now obviously getting to The first question everybody asks when when

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I mentioned for example You're out there with us and you're passing out tracks last evening till oh, I don't know.

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What was it 10 10 30 or so you and one of our folks was in a conversation with a

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Mormon fellow that I had started the conversation with and pry talk with him What about at least an hour hour and a half

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I'd say somewhere around that area The people will ask the question now that come on Does this guy know what you

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James White are all about? I mean, you know, does he know? You know the distinctives that you all folks have and yes, he does and so the question people have is well how do you handle those situations where you're going into a place and the gospel that is that is being presented is not being presented in its

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In its fullest form in the sense of really emphasizing such things as you know The the atonement of Christ the unique character of Christ You had shared with me that one of the things you try to do is is try to get to people and and share those

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Things but that gets you in trouble, doesn't it? Yes, it does I remember I was testifying and when I testify the power team

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I always make sure that I emphasize that Jesus Christ was God and and Distinctions and saved by grace alone these distinctives that are so vacant in the church today

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And I remember I was at this one crusade in in Texas and after I testified the pastor came to us in the back room and he asked the guy who was leading the crusade

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Who will be testifying tomorrow and the leader of the team that week said? Oh, I believe it was a man named

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Andre He said oh good. He looks at me says just leave the theology to us, but I found out that the assistant pastor is

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Adhering is holding to the modalistic dogma and so it all made sense why

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I would not want me to write in fact Somebody you might have to be sent to put more conservative churches, huh?

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Which I found a lot of the crusades that go on now are Baptist churches Well, you know

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You've got it You've got to stand up and and speak the truth and sometimes that gets you into a whole lot of whole lot of trouble

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But we we ran into each other you had seen my email address in the back of which which book was it was a

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Forgotten Trinity or was it Mormon elder? I believe it's King James only talking James only controversy

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Okay, and all of a sudden just like I have AOL instant message up Today all of a sudden this message comes across and I didn't know who who this was and as I recall from your question

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I think I asked you. Well, are you a modalist or something? Background. Yeah. Yeah some along those lines and Then as we

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I think I answered you tried to answer your question we were directed you to some resources or something like that as we

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Were finishing up you mentioned that that you have are on the power team and I was like really

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Is that so and I as I recall I said, you know, we work out on Monday nights forever in Phoenix, you know Yada yada yada and then all of a sudden about What about two months later you happen to be here and and that's how it's all happened.

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And so I'm very thankful. You've had an opportunity to come over because you're not from the Phoenix area From Southern, California to come over and be with us the past couple nights the first night you were there was fairly quiet, but last night a few more conversations and we had one conversation that I think illustrated for everybody who was listening the

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The soul destroying nature of a subjective view of truth Where you and your religious experience determine what truth is and Over and over again,

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I saw some I think some very serious anger toward anyone who would say

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God has revealed his truth and we are Subject to that truth and we have to test our religious experience and feelings by that truth

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That wasn't overly well accepted. No, and it's a very dangerous thing to trust your feelings God tells us in Proverbs chapter 28 that only a fool trust their heart.

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We cannot base truth on our Subjective feelings, you know that would lead us in all as history proves it all kinds of air all kinds of air

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And yet that is so very common in our society And then we've already got some callers online and I'll get to you in just a moment

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But a thing that happened last night was and I think you may have heard a part of this though you may have already been over with the folks tracting when

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I was on straight talk live and we got a phone caller and Somewhere earlier in the program.

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I had mentioned to a Christian lady You remember the Christian lady calling as I knew you were still there at that point the

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Christian lady called in and the the fellow that the lady said

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Well, you know as long as the Mormons confess that Jesus Christ has come to flesh Then they they're my fellow

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Christians and In attempting to explain to her that what the Mormons mean by Jesus coming to flesh is substantially different Than what we believe by Jesus coming in the flesh.

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I had mentioned just in passing Zechariah 12 1 and Zechariah 12 1

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New American Standard says the burden of the word of the Lord and that word Lord is in all capitals which indicates that in the

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Hebrew text that is the name Jehovah or more properly pronounced Yahweh But since we're dealing with Mormons and they use the name

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Jehovah, that's how we will use it the word of Jehovah concerning Israel thus declares

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Jehovah who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and Forms the spirit of man within him

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Now I simply paraphrase that to the fellow and to the lady and said Zechariah 12 1 tells us that Jehovah Creates the spirits of men.

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Well a fellow named Jeff calls in And Jeff is a Mormon and he's saying well you're your theologian fellow there misquoted

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Zechariah, he's trying to deceive people and He says that's not the word for create.

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That is the word for form and It's a different term than create and I said

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Actually, it's the Hebrew term Yatzer and he says yeah Strong's concordance though says that that can be like forming a pot

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And what this means is that Jehovah that's Jesus is Forming us to his image and this has to do with sanctification or something along those lines

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So you're that's not an argument against the LDS position so what I want to do briefly today before we start taking your phone calls is to use that as an illustration of how even

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Biblical information like something like Strong's exhaustive concordance can be used in a way to get around Biblical truth rather than actually dealing with biblical truth

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And then I'm not sure if you saw any of the conversations later that evening Eddie But that came up again in talking with a local apologist

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Who said that I had avoided what this person was saying? And had not dealt with the response that he had given

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Zechariah 12 1 is relevant to Mormonism simply for this reason in Mormonism God the

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Father is Elohim and Jesus the Son is Jehovah Elohim is an exalted man from another planet his firstborn spirit child after his exaltation to godhood

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Was Jesus who is Jehovah so in Mormonism? Jehovah and Elohim are separate gods and in fact

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Elohim was a god before Jehovah became a god and in Mormonism Elohim and Jehovah and Michael are all involved in the organization of this earth and I emphasize the word

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Organization because Mormonism is very clear to deny the idea that God actually creates anything

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They'll use the term create what they mean by that is organization they will organize

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Pre -existing matter into particular forms. They do not create there is no criatio ex nihilo to use the

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Classic Christian term creation out of or into nothing and so the issue of Zechariah 12 1 is

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Jehovah is one of the spirits of men. He is one of those Pre -existent spirits that was begotten by Elohim with one of his heavenly wives

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He's the firstborn, but he is the he is a one of the spirits of men So if he is one of the spirits of men

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Then how can he be the one who forms the spirit of man within him in Zechariah 12 1 and it would not do any good the the caller basically said well this means to form and Still no matter how you interpret form it still would make no sense

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Because you have Jehovah here clearly being Distinguished from man and what is the fundamental affirmation of Mormonism as man?

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Is God once was as God is man may become God and man are of the same species

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And that is a term not only used by modern Mormons for example in the encyclopedia of Mormonism It was used by BH Roberts back at the beginning of the century who was one of the general authorities the church

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It is an LDS teaching God and man are of the same species. God is simply more exalted than man

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In as man lives upon this earth so no matter what you do with the word form it makes no sense because Jehovah here

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Whatever he's doing is to the spirit of man. He is not one of the spirits of men But beyond that the assertion was well

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Yatzer here does not mean create the term does not have any reference to the idea of creation and I attempted to explain to a

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Jeff the caller and then to one of our local apologists a Little bit about biblical languages and especially the

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Hebrew language the Hebrew language Utilizes terms and utilizes turns of the language in such a way as to be able to Parallel terms to one another to expand and explain the way the writer is using the word and I also tried to explain that terms like Yatzer to form or Bara to create can have different meanings depend upon what form they're in and what the subject is for example

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Bara Every time God is the one doing Bara, which means to create has one specific meaning

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When it's used with a man as the subject it has a different meaning And the same thing is true here when we look at the lexical form in regards to Yatzer It can the very first meaning given is of human activity of a potter who forms out of clay a vessel or of a carver

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Of wood or it's even the same term that's used of people who make graven images So of human activity there is a certain realm of meaning but then the second of divine

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Activity and there is a whole list of things that God forms Such things as the servant of Yahweh from the womb

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Jeremiah the eye of man the locust Leviathan the dry land the earth and There is an entire section of passages in Scripture Where this term is used in conjunction with the word to create that is

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Bara and It is the use of those words together that becomes significant.

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For example, let me read some passages of Scripture to you Isaiah 43 1 but now thus says

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Yahweh your creator Bara. Oh Jacob and he who formed you

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Yatzer. Oh Israel do not fear for I have redeemed you I have called you by name here both

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Bara and Yatzer are used in parallel as titles for God It's in that type of context that Yatzer clearly means to make or create

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Not to sanctify or form us into an image of Christ or something like that.

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Listen to Isaiah 43 7 everyone who is called by my name and whom I have Created for my glory whom

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I have formed even whom I have made three terms in a row created formed made obviously each one of these

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Indicating that it is God who is our creator God is the one who makes us and again the the definition of Yatzer that the caller tried to use and the

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LDS Apologist tried to promote it does not fit there either. Isaiah 45 7 is well known the one forming light and creating darkness

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Causing well -being and creating calamity. I am the Lord who does all these that's a famous one because of the use of the term raw evil there and So here we have

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Isaiah 45 18 for thus says the Lord who created the heavens he is the God who formed the earth and made it and Established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited

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I am Yahweh and there is none else now I don't know how you could get a plainer than that basically every single

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Hebrew word that could be used to describe the creative activity of God is Used in Isaiah 45 18 in this very way.

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Now. The point is that in Zechariah 12 1 we have the exact same thing thus declares

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Yahweh who stretches out the heavens lays the foundation of the earth and Forms the spirit of man within him.

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This is obviously referring to the creative activity of Jehovah in creating and sustaining the universe and Therefore the spirit of man is not only differentiated from Jehovah.

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He is not one the spirits of men He is the one who forms the spirits of men any more than Jehovah is

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The earth that he founds or is the heavens that he stretches out. There's obviously

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Jehovah is different than the heavens He's different than the earth and therefore he's different than the spirit of man He's not one the spirits of men and that is the significance of Zechariah 12 1 now

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Just real quickly since I'm going a little bit longer and I want to we do have callers It one other passage.

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It is one of my favorites in regards to Mormonism also uses this term because there are few passages

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I believe that describe Mormon theology better than Isaiah 29 16 You turn things around Isaiah says shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay

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That what is made would say to its maker he did not make me or what is formed say to him who formed it

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He has no understanding Isaiah uses irony to point out that pots are not on the same level as the potter and Yet in Mormonism when

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Mormonism says that we are of the species of God That's exactly what they're saying

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That is the exact assertion of the Mormon Church that we are on the same level that we are of the same species and I've shared with with you

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Eddie. I in fact I gave you a photocopy of the achieving celestial marriage handbook Where right in there you have the direct statement within the very first pages of this manual

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It's used by Mormons to train their people to go through the temple and go through celestial marriage Where the the

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Mormon person explaining celestial marriage to a newer Mormon person says you were never created and you can never be destroyed and Yet listen again to Isaiah 29 16 you turn things around shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay

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That what is made would say to its maker. He did not make me That's what

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Mormons are saying. God did not make me he begat me Joseph Smith said God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all and Isaiah 29 16

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I think is a perfect description of LDS theology and since it is being refuted in the

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Bible, then we must reject it and reject it as well

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So anyways, that was an example Sadly when you're sitting next to a street corner and there are buses going by and at one point a

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Harley Davidson went by and almost destroyed all the radio equipment and microphones And you've got long commercial breaks hitting you between the collars.

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It's really hard to get into a discussion of the meanings of Yatser and Bara and everything else, but for those of you who run into that issue

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Zechariah 12 1 Know your facts present them Mormonism has no response and the more

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I deal with those people who try to formulate responses The more it becomes obvious that there is no response and it was interesting

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After sharing some information with one of those apologists after I left I was informed later by someone who stuck around that instead of dealing with the issue

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The person began to attack me and my credibility Which is pretty normative for those who don't have the truth 602 two seven four thirteen sixty one triple eight five five zero thirteen

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Sixty we have callers on the line for me and also my guest

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Eddie Dalkour Let's talk to Bill in Phoenix. Hi Bill. How are you? Pretty good

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What's your question today? My question is did God predestinate some people for hell?

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All righty, well, let's let's look to the scriptures as our primary response to that I think that is the the only place to go to Answer a question like that and I believe that passage that issue is directly addressed in Romans chapter 9 in the following verses beginning at verse 20

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On the contrary who are you a man who answers back to God the thing molded will not say to the molder

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Why did you make me like this? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for Common use what if God although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known

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Endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for Destruction and he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy

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Which he prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he also called not from among Jews only but also from among Gentiles and I think that the biblical response is that God is the sovereign over all things and that therefore his

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Sovereign hand has determined the outcome of all things that those who are condemned in eternity are

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Condemned justly they are condemned justly because they have sinned

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Because they revel in their sin. They enjoy their sin and The judgment that comes upon them is does not come upon some nice innocent person that was trying his best to do his best

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Instead God's judgment comes upon those who even though God's truth is all around them continue to live in Rebellion against that truth and yet there are some of us

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Then none of us can boast about this none of us can even begin to say that there's something special about us

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But God in his infinite mercy Elects a people unto himself not for anything in us

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But solely in regards to his own choice And if it is not that way then you and I Who it named the name of Christ are somehow better than those that do not and one thing

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Eddie that I've certainly been reminded of This week out there is that But by the grace of God, I could have been raised in a

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Mormon home. I could have heard about Joseph Smith I could have testified that he was a prophet from the time

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I was this tall could have had the exact same emotions the exact same response to the truth of God and I've been reminded over and over again that Grace is a wonderful and free thing and I think you saw the same thing last last evening

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But you can hear the same thing. I do we need to take our break We'll be taking your phone calls at 602 274 1361 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60.

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We'll be right back And welcome back to the dividing line, my name is

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James White we have about half an hour left actually a bit less than that We have three callers online one line open at 602 274 13 60 1 triple 8 5 5 0 1360 my in -studio guest

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Eddie d 'Alcourt from the Department of Christian Defense. Do not argue with me or I will show you how to break a bat and I wish you know

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You have offered to help me learn how to do the brick thing, right? Head breaks.

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No, no, no. No, I like my head exactly where it is. My forehead is flat enough as it is I don't need to flatten it up anymore but we are taking your calls by the way, there is a

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Question from the the chat room that I would like to answer because it is a very common and good question

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I don't want the person who asked it to be overly impressed with himself for having said that but Here's the question if Mormons do not believe in an ex nihilo creation just an endless cycle of God's forming and reforming matter

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What do they believe concerning a point of origin and this of course is one of the key questions,

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I think philosophical black holes in Mormonism and that is if you have today an increasing number of gods then if you go backwards in time logically and rationally you have to have a

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Decreasing number of gods and if you go far enough back in time you eventually come to the first God But according to LDS teaching the first God To become a

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God must be a man. So what is the origin of creation? Where did all this?

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Stuff come from. Well again, you got to remember in Mormonism matters eternal. It has no point of origin

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In fact the the current philosophical argument in essence, and I don't believe that it works at all

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But the current philosophical argument that Mormons use is that there is an infinite number of gods

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Therefore you cannot regress through an infinite number and hence you can't ask the question about the original

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God because there's an infinite Number of gods now, of course you start thinking about that and it begs the question basically, you're just asserting there's an infinite number of gods and that matter as matter basically is infinite and Does not have a point of origin and so that's one of the reasons

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I think that We see a movement toward a little bit more of what's called the minimalist view in Mormonism Where you don't have as much of an emphasis upon some of the things that Joseph Smith said

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But that's more in its apologetic stance not in what it's teaching its own people. In fact, I tried to get this read on the

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Air yesterday on Marty Minto's program But I want to read you something that BH Roberts who is one of the general authorities of the church

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Stated and listen very closely to what he says Man has descended from God In fact, he is the same race as the gods and gods is capitalized

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His descent has not been from a lower form of life but from the highest form of life in other words man is in the most literal sense a capital

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C child of God this is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body Also, this was from the course of study for priests 1910 page 35 and immediately somebody says

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Oh 1910 I mean, come on. That was the last century. It was 90 years ago. However, this is being quoted in the 1992 and currently for sale book

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Published by the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints under the copyright of the presidency of the

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Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints Which is what every Mormon going through the temple to achieve celestial marriage, which is the highest right of Mormonism This is what they have to read and this is what they're being taught

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And I think what a church teaches to its people in the most inner sanctums is

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What is most definitional of what the church actually believes itself and that's what we have coming from those official

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Sources. All right. Let's take some more questions here. Let's talk to Fran in Scottsdale.

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Hi Fran. Hi, how are you doing? Oh great. I really respect you for standing on the street corners Well, no one's run us over yet.

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So I suppose that's a good thing Kind of two different questions with relating to do two totally different things

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Okay, um, I for years understood the Trinity is saying that the Father Son and Holy Spirit with the exact same thing

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Hmm now I'm realizing through listening to Hank Hanegraaff and yourself

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But you're not saying that you're saying they're one in nature and essence and purpose that they are manifested in Three eternally distinct persons, right?

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Okay. Is that correct? Yes The doctrine of the Trinity is that within the one being that is

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God there exists eternally Three divine persons the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

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The Father is not the Son The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father and the primary difficulty that people have is they don't recognize the difference between the words being and Person even though in our everyday life we make that distinction every day

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And what I mean by that is we recognize that anything that exists has being

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The the telephone that you're holding in your hand has being it exists

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Try taking it away about two feet from your head and then very violently Smashing it into your head if you want proof that it does exist

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It's there and it's gonna hurt if you hit yourself with it. It has being however, it is not personal

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You can insult your phone all day long and your phone won't care because it is not personal

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We make those types of distinctions every single day and what the doctrine of the Trinity is saying is that the being of God or to?

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Use Hank's term the what of God is shared by three persons or the who of God The Father the

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Son and the Holy Spirit just as you are a human being on the level of being you exist as a human

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You're also an individual person differentiated from all other human beings Now we as humans are finite

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We're limited in time and space our being is limited to here on Saturday in I believe the

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Phoenix area You're in Scottsdale. Okay, and we're generally in the same area and You're not here with me right now

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You're where you are because you're limited in time and space just like I am God's being is not limited by time and space and therefore can be shared by three persons

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The Father the Son the Spirit the scriptures clearly differentiate between the Father the

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Son the Spirit and yet Through various means for example by using the one named Jehovah of the

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Father and of the Son and of the Spirit We are led to understand that each one participates fully in that divine being

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That there is not one who is before another in the sense of greater in their participation divine being and yet They're differentiated from one another

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Jesus Even when he said the I and the Father are one he used the plural verb you could translate

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I and the Father We are one. Okay, that's okay. Thanks for that's not really my question

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So my question is when he taught us to pray he didn't teach us to pray to himself

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He taught us to pray to his father so when we pray are we What's the appropriate way to address our prayer only to the father or to Jesus?

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You know what I mean, right? I understand the model prayer that Jesus gives us is and the normative prayer is to the

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Father through the Son. However Jesus does in John chapter 14 verse 14 refer to the fact that his believers those who his disciples those who follow him

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Will be able to ask him for anything even after he has left them

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He refers to prayer to himself in John 14 14 and in the early church

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The Christians were known as those who called upon the name of the Lord For example, I believe it's and I'm just going off top of my head here.

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I believe it's 1st Corinthians I believe it's 1st Corinthians chapter 1. I need to look for you real quickly

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Those who call upon the name of the Lord Epikaleo is the Greek term and it is frequently used of prayer and Even Stephen called upon Christ when he was being stoned and it would only be in the context of prayer

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So we do have New Testament examples of individuals calling upon the

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Lord Jesus Christ I think this is proper in the sense that Jesus in John 14 also promises that he will not leave us as orphans but he will come to us and how is it that the

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Father and the Son make their abode with us, but it's in the person of the Holy Spirit and So I I do believe and especially as we look through church history

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But church history, of course is not our source of authority But as we look through church history at those who have studied the

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Word of God and have lived great and glorifying Christian lives That we do see examples there that they likewise understood the

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New Testament to be teaching that a prayer to Jesus Christ is perfectly possible because the fact that he is

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He is fully divine just as just as a father is but it's not appropriate for us to give

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Jesus more praise than the father Well, see we cannot single out any member of the

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Godhead and and in some way shape or form What would be the term over praise or something along that we need to recognize that when we

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Think of the Son We cannot be helped but be drawn back to the unity of the

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Godhead the unity of the Father Son Spirit When we think of anything the Son has done we think of the cross for example well

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Who decreed the cross would take place? Well, the Father did and who has made this real in our lives

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Well the Spirit has so we we can't divide them up and I think that is a danger in Eddie You've probably seen this where the

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Holy Spirit becomes the primary individual in the Godhead that is Dealt with in in particular elements in the church, too

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Absolutely. I think we have to understand to that God when we're talking about the Trinity. We're not talking about separate

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We're not talking Separality you can't like three odds, right? Can't quantify God in the thirds wherever God is all of God is exactly exactly and that is that is the part that we have trouble with is that each one shares fully not one -third of Deity but as Colossians 2 9 says for in Jesus Christ the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form

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So what's hard for us is that term share if we tried to share a pie? We can only do that in having one -third of the pie or however many of us there are

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That's not the case with the being of God because the being of God is not limited and that's where our finite minds run into A problem.

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We want to somehow quantify the being of God Okay, I don't want to take too much time Um, the other question is is there consciousness in the spirit realm?

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It seems like when people pass away, they're given this idea that they're up there walking around talking seeing touching is that Are we asleep?

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Oh, no, we're definitely not asleep but the the Apostle Paul specifically taught to be absent from the body is to be at home with the

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Lord to have communion with him and The last thing the Apostle Paul would have thought would be a good thing was to be in this life now and have sweet communion with Christ and Yet leave this life and no longer have that communion with him

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And so I think that the the biblical teaching is very plain that the issue of soul sleep or things like that Is is not the biblical understanding of the fact that we since we are in Christ already and have

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Already in a in a certain sense been seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus is Ephesians 2 tells us that when we depart this life

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We will be in the presence of the Father in the presence of Jesus Christ and that we will have perfect communion with him the

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Bible isn't quite as full of information regarding how we will have communion with one another the exact nature of that other than it will be perfect and it will not bring us any type of Distress that will not be marked by sin or anything like that.

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Okay. All right. Thank you very much 602 two seven four thirteen sixty one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty

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We have about 12 minutes left to get online now with your questions. We'll be right back And welcome back to dividing line

41:31

My name is James White in studio with Eddie Delcour and we're actually enjoying sitting down doing the talking

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It's a moment. It gets you know you start tracking at six o 'clock and we we got back at the car at 1030 last night and I Wouldn't have wanted to have taken anybody else on at that time of night because I'm not sure that exactly of the orthodox

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He's what I would have been saying And you got admit you were looking a little tired yourself. I was looking a little hungry a little hungry

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Okay, is that what it was? Okay. Well, we're not trying to deprive you of food out there You know, it's not something you want to want to do.

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Let's let's go ahead and and Hi Martin, how are things across the pond?

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They're very well James Oh pretty good beautiful day out here getting ready to head out for the last night for the

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Easter pageant and So what's a question? Do you bring from a jolly old

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England today? It's a question about Greg Boyd. Oh my Now I heard you mentioned before that he's got some some strange views on the openness of God And I was looking at some stuff.

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He's put on the website But I was wondering about the book you read he had written called cynic sage sort of God, is that any good what

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I'm sorry Could you repeat that in English, please? I'm sorry. Could you repeat that in American American English?

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He wrote a book called a cynic sage or son of God. Well the title similar to that or sin about Cynics, I don't understand the first word.

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I'm really sorry sage or son of God Oh cynic sage or son of God okay, there we go of a kind of response to the the

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What's it called the Jesus movement? What's it the? Okay, Eddie's Eddie's familiar with it.

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Now. I'm not right. How old the box is that Eddie? I thought he gave a great response.

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It is a response to the Jesus seminar. Okay, and I thought he he Delivered a lot of excellent points now, isn't he former oneness himself?

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He was a former oneness pastor. Yes, right That's why I thought but he has some very I haven't Sites because It was responded to by John Piper, but he had some very strange views on the openness of God doesn't it?

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Yes, sadly You know, it's sort of like there's there's a very very well -known

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Christian apologist by name of William Lane Craig Constantly on on the air and is doing debates all the time and yet he's a

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Molinist He holds to the the view of the Jesuit theologian Louis de

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Molina who developed the the theory of middle knowledge Which isn't quite as far as the

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Gregory Boyd idea of the openness of God The difference being that the openness of God basically denies to God the concept of having knowledge of future events

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They'll say he is omniscient in the sense that he has all knowledge But it's all possible knowledge and since the future does not yet exist for man or for God in that theory then he can't have knowledge of that which does not yet exist and So if God is open in the sense that he too is experiencing this progression of events that man does

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That's the openness view that Gregory Boyd is teaching which which I just directly say is heretical

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The middle knowledge viewpoint of Molinism is that God has perfect knowledge of all possible

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Scenarios of all possible happenings But that which one actually happens is

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Determined by the free will choices of man. So while God has perfect knowledge of the future

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It's more a theoretical knowledge of all possible futures rather than a perfect knowledge based upon the fact that he decreed what would take place in time and Molinism really

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I'll be very straightforward and open about it Molinism is a Theology developed by the

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Jesuits at the command of Ignatius Loyola Who told his followers to find ways to keep the heretics?

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That's us Protestants from so emphasizing the freedom of God that the quote -unquote freedom of man would be eclipsed and Why Protestants would wish to embrace?

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Well, I know why Protestants wish to embrace a a Jesuit theology Because many who are

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Protestants today agree with Rome Against the Protestant reformers in regards to the freedom of man the freedom of man's will and a semi

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Pelagian nature of grace How widely accepted is this idea of? Boyd because apart from sort of Piper's essays a lot of people who were in in the

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Baptist Organization it was it was a Baptist group. We're just siding with with Boyd.

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Yeah, sadly I Wish I had a little more information on this I know a fellow in a local church here that has kept very abreast on this and and he would be able to answer your

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Question better than I can but my understanding is that the convention meeting attempted to censure

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Boyd and failed to do so so in other words That means a majority of people

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Believed that this viewpoint was not outside the bounds of the confession of faith of that particular organization

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Which is very distressing to me, of course, and I'm sure it was very distressing to John Piper as well

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But I think the reason I think the very same reason you don't see more in regards to this is the same reason that you see people accepting

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TD Jake's books and Distributing them and saying look you people are narrow -minded

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Unloving individuals who are so hung up on these complex issues of truth as if What God has revealed about himself in the issue of modalism

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That is the relationship of father -son spirit or in this issue in regards to God's Creative decree and his knowledge of the future events the whole ground of prophecy itself.

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I would say is washed away in Boyd's Boyd's perspective. It becomes nothing more than what you have in the supermarket tabloids with Jean Dixon.

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She's gone, isn't she? Well, she used to predict it. I don't know if she's gone or not All I know is she knows better now than she did then if she has

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You know that lit that that reduces God's act of inspiring prophecy to a predictive element

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Where God is basically rolling the dice and you know You don't have any basis any longer for even determining what false prophecy is

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So I think it's extremely serious, but I think the reason you don't see more about it is because people are willing to accept a feel -good substitute for challenging biblical

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Christianity Right, but Eddie would say that that the other book cynic station of God was it was a decent book none that weird theology came

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Through that because I haven't bought it, but I was thinking of buying it. Well, it's good in terms of it deals with the

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Jesus seminar Point by point I would recommend that in the response to the Jesus seminar because that's right

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That's specifically what he deals with In fact, you know, here's a here's a good illustration of where you have to take the good and the bad and recognize that people with Whom you'd have fundamental disagreements can sometimes write good things.

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I was mentioning that The name just slipped my mind the

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Molinist William You know has written good things on other issues

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Right and in the same and the exact same vein one of the people who's written some of the most Devastating critiques of the

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Jesus seminar is Luke Timothy Johnson who is a Roman Catholic? Yeah, in fact,

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I've mentioned I mentioned a few weeks ago on the program that one of the best commentaries that I've read on James Chapter 2 is

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Luke Timothy Johnson's commentary on James chapter 2 He even he makes it very clear that James and Paul are not addressing the same issues

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James is not addressing how an individual is made right before God and even his Translation of James 2 says that puts it a man is shown to be righteous by his deeds

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By what he does it's an external demonstration Not the actual means of justification itself, which

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Roman Catholic apologists are so frequently attempting to turn it into so so again it's a matter of You know, we don't want to be the type person says well if if a person writes one thing that I disagree with Therefore I'm gonna throw everything else out the window.

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You have to yeah, you know, you have to exercise with anybody I mean even in reading the Puritans There's there were some

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Puritans who became imbalanced on the issue of justification and fell into an element of legalism

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So, you know, none of us are perfect and none of us get everything, right? So it's a matter of utilizing our sources in a proper way.

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Okay, lovely. All right. Thanks a lot Martin. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye Well, I hear applause in the background.

50:18

It's not Eddie Thanks for being on with me today. And thanks for coming out and passing out tracks with us

50:24

And I hope the someday we'll get to do this up in Salt Lake City. Maybe together sometime

50:30

That would be fun outside the South Gate of the of the temple But God bless you and your ministry and you're getting a website put together.

50:36

How will people get there? www .christiandefense .com Christian defense calm and we'll put a link there once you've got stuff put together and thanks again for being with me and thanks for Listening today.

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I've all of you who have been listening on the internet or here in the local Phoenix area Pray for us one more night out in Mesa and then we're done.