A Pastoral Defense of Theonomy: A Response to Theocast Part II

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When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

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Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

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So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

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Bible, and specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

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Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

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We need to love God with all our hearts, and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

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Lord with all of our souls, and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

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We need to love the Lord with our minds, and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

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We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength, and face the work of building a life -giving, God -honoring culture.

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Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership, as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

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Christian thinking to every area of life. This is the

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Academy. I am Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics, and I will be bringing a six -part series on presuppositional apologetics.

01:33

What is this called, the Apology Academy? It's just called The Academy. Okay. What's up, everybody?

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My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm gonna be interacting with an atheist on TikTok.

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So here we go. Unsupervised and unhinged. Welcome back to Cultus the

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Aftermath. Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything. You are watching Apologia Radio's after show exclusively for all access.

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Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

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We're being delusional. Delusional? Yeah. Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

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You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

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It's hung up on me. What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

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Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded

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Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.

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The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

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That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against him and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

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Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

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For our sake, he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

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That was a lot, and that's 2 Corinthians 5, 16 through 21.

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Amen. Praise the Lord for that verse right there. We will definitely discuss this a little further in this episode.

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I can't wait. I'm excited. What's up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is

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Luke the Bear hosting again today. Pastor Jeff, forgive me, I'm doing everything today, so I'm trying to multitask like a maniac.

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Almost everything. Almost everything. Pastor Jeff's still in his sabbatical, so yeah, be praying for him.

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He's getting a lot of rest, thankfully. Today, I got myself and just old

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Zachary Conover. Holding it down. Just the two of us, we can make it if we try.

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Just the two of us. But we do have a special guest on today, which I'm very excited about. Three's company.

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Let's just, okay, before I bring in our guest, if you saw last week, now

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I got that song in my head. Come and knock on my door. Sorry, man, sorry. We've been waiting for you.

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I used to love that show. If you saw last week's episode, we responded to Theocast.

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They did an episode called A Reformed Response to Theonomy. We responded to their response.

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A lot of responding. Response to response, yes. And so today, we mentioned last week we were going to respond.

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Can't get away from that word. To their second episode they did called

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A Pastoral Response. Is that what it was? A Pastoral Response to Theonomy. And we're going to respond to that.

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And we're going to respond to that. And so, again, I want to thank those brothers, Justin and John, for their charity.

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We're grateful for them and the work they're doing. I will say that in the first episode,

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I thought they did a very fair job. For the most part. There were some issues we brought up. But for the most part,

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I felt like they tried to accurately represent us.

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I think in the second episode, not so much. The tone was a bit more pointed.

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I think it was more direct. And so maybe that will allow us the opportunity to be more direct in our forthcoming response to their video.

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Yep. So we will be responding to that. Again, there's that word. Before we do, though,

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I'm going to bring in our special guest here. I have a special song ready for our guest.

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I'm going to go ahead and play this here. Hold on. Zach and I were very excited about this.

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So we were preparing for this. Sorry, I should have pulled it up a little bit further.

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So our guest is our dear brother. Everybody listening right now has no idea what's happening.

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Nope, we do. Mr. Sandman, bring us a treat.

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Is that going to be my new walk -up song? Yes, please. Yes. I'll tell you real quickly, guys.

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Years ago, some people said that my followers were called. And those of you from the 80s and 90s will remember the

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Sandlanistas. Remember the Sandanistas, of course, in Central America. Yes. Yeah, I'm the

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Sandman. I guess that means, guys, the listeners, I'm going to put them to sleep. And I certainly hope that that is not the case.

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That definitely will not be the case. No, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't mind being considered a Sandlanista. I think that was before my time.

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I don't remember that. No, a Sandlanista. That's a compliment. Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay, I got you.

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Anyways. Sure, I'll go with that. Andrew Sandlin, we love you, brother, and we're grateful to have you back on. What is going on with you?

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You've been super -duper busy. Well, doing a lot of writing, as we'll get into in a minute, and speaking, and so on.

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I just got back from an Esri Institute event with our good mutual friend,

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Joe Boot, in Minnesota. His first U .S. event, or essentially second U .S. event, great event in central

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Minnesota, Christianity and Culture Conference, and going to plan to do an event for high schoolers and Christian worldview in a few weeks in North Carolina, finishing a book on the

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Free and Virtuous Society, and, of course, the book we're talking about today. So extremely busy, just like you guys.

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Let's hear about that. Let's hear about that new book, which I have had the pleasure of reading already, and it's You have?

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Fantastico. You read it already? Yeah, because he asked me for an endorsement. Oh, okay. Sorry. Well, I didn't get asked for that, but I can't wait to read it myself.

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Zach, in defense of myself, when you get him as important as Luke, you will be permitted to...

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I was like, you want an endorsement from me? I was honored, but it's excellent, so tell us about it, brother, because it's necessary.

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All right, so I've been told by the producers, if I put this right in front of my face...

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Hey! There we go. All right, there's the book. You want to see the book instead of me anyway. All right, so it's

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Postmillennial Primer. A primer is just kind of like a basic introductory book. It's an expression.

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A lot of the old schools, back when we used books, hard copies in schools, was like an introduction to something.

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This book is basically designed to lay out the three or four main views of eschatology, postmillennialism, amillennialism, dispensationalism, and then premillennialism, nondispensational premillennialism, and make a positive case for an optimistic approach to eschatology.

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And I do it in, what about... I try to do it in what's like 80 pages, 80, 90 pages, something like that.

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So you'll have to get the book and decide whether I did. The sales have been great thus far and appreciate your endorsement,

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Luke, and that of a number of other fine men of God. But yeah, it's actually designed to give people who don't want to wade into 700 pages, not that there's anything wrong with wading into 700 pages, but this is good to put on like a church book table, give to friends, church leaders, and so on, to explain a position that often is misunderstood.

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So that's basically what the book is all about. That's what I was just thinking. I'm thinking about gentry.

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I'm thinking about the mission of God. I'm thinking about even Bonson's small work on postmillennialism.

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And I don't think that there's been a parallel for just a basic quick hit explanation.

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What is this all about? And so I think that'll be very, very helpful for people. That's basically what my endorsement said, what you just said.

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Okay, well, see? Because I get asked that. Zach should have endorsed it. He should have endorsed it then. Seriously.

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I'm sure Luke did a stellar job. As a pastor, I get asked a lot, explain to me what the difference is in these positions.

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And like you both were saying, there's plenty of exhaustive works out there. But not everyone wants to spend weeks reading a book.

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And so it's perfect. It's like a little quick read. It gives a great breakdown that I thought was very fair to all the positions.

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And so I'm just curious if you had any pushback at all from anyone in the other positions?

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Not yet. It's only been out, I think, four days, three or four days. So I'm sure the pushback will come.

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I was just curious. Another thing I want to mention, guys, is if you believe the Bible, and I hope everybody listening is, it's chock full of the

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Bible, quoting Bible verses. So you might disagree with the interpretation, but no one can say that this position has nothing to do with the

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Bible. So please read it and check out the verses. Exactly right. All right.

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Well, on that note, I wanted to make sure you had an opportunity to promote your book. Oh, by the way, in the description, you can go to Amazon and get it.

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I did put a link in the description. You can go get it. Please do. I think it's only like $10, right? Yeah.

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That's right. I'm actually going to order several copies today. When we get done with the show, I just forgot to do it.

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This is actually perfect. God timed this perfectly because the importance of Andrew's book is going to be on full display in this show today.

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There's a reason why eschatology matters. And as we mentioned last week, our brothers, John and Justin, they'll get into it a little bit in this episode.

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I don't know if we'll get into that part, but they would consider themselves to kingdom on Millennialists.

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1689 Federalists. And it's very clear right off the bat we'll get into it that why eschatology matters, why

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Andrew's book is going to be helpful in this discussion. So all I have to say, we're going to get through as much as we can.

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Again, there's so much to go through. But I got about three main points we're going to try to break down.

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And hopefully we can get through all of them. And if not, we will have an after show where we can get into the other points as well.

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So all that to say, I'm going to go ahead, brothers, and just get right into this. If at any point you want me to stop, just say stop.

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And we'll respond. I know it won't take me very long to hit. I don't imagine we're going to get that far.

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Let's see. Okay, here we go. Full screen. This is where we're going to be a little bit more pointed.

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We would say that theonomy often can overshadow the gospel.

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We'll stop right there. I guess that's enough for a springboard. Yeah. So I think we talked about this a little bit last week.

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And I'm going to say this now because they get into this point later on in the show, but I don't think we're going to get to it. The one thing they say is that theonomists want to change society top down, essentially, and they get into this overshadowing of the gospel.

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And brothers, if you watch this, because I think they've been watching our responses, I plead with you to stop saying that because it's just not true.

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We constantly get accused of this. And I feel like if anyone's actually listening to what we're saying, that's not what we're saying.

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We're saying it starts with the gospel. It starts in the individual. It starts in that governmental sphere and then works outward.

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And the idea is that the more that people come to Christ and love his law, the more that we should want

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God's standard of justice in our society. That's what we're saying. At the same time, we're saying that civil government should uphold judicial laws according to that standard.

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But we're not trying to change things top down. That's the complete opposite of what we're trying to do. I know you're chomping at the bait.

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I think they acknowledge as much later on in the episode. They affirm that this is part of what we believe, that the gospel transforms from the inside out as new hearts are made.

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As people come to the Lord, they desire righteous law and just social public policy.

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I mean, this is part and parcel to the witness of the Christian church, which kind of that's where the heart of the matter lies.

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What is the role of the church in society? And what expectation do we have of the gospel's success in history?

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But even there, we can't even move beyond that point because they've just brought it up. They've said theonomy obscures the gospel.

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So we have to define what the gospel is. Now, from their framework, they're dealing with a two -kingdom framework, and they define salvation.

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They have a reformed soteriology. So they believe in justification by faith. They believe in the new birth.

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They believe in calling upon sinners to turn and to receive the forgiveness that Jesus offers.

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And that's the gospel, which the gospel is that. It's not less than that.

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It's not less than right soteriology. However, if you look at the gospel that the apostles preach and that we find in the prophets and in the

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Psalter, it was about much more than just personal forgiveness. It was about peace and justice for the nations.

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That's what was promised. When the Messiah came, he was going to bring justice in the earth, in the civil sphere, whether or not men believed.

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That was part of his mission, is that the coastlands were going to wait for his law, and that he was going to bring forth his justice in the earth.

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That's part and parcel to his mission in the world. And I would say by extension to the witness of the church as we partner with him in this great work of reconciliation.

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So I'd like to hear that from Andrew maybe. How, if at all, does theonomy obscure the gospel?

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Well, I think you really touched on it there, Zach. The gospel is not identical to soteriology, certainly not individual soteriology.

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Individual soteriology is a vital aspect of the gospel. But the gospel is the good news, literally.

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Well, what is the good news? The God in Christ is undoing and reversing what happened in Genesis 3 with the fall of man.

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And he is restoring God's truth and justice and righteousness in the earth. God's law is one aspect of that gospel.

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And that's why a false law gospel distinction is very dangerous. And it's true that we're saved entirely by grace through faith in Christ and not of our own works.

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But that's not quite what the so -called law gospel distinction wants to say. It wants to keep them very, very far apart.

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Thus, if you talk about the authority of God's law, particularly in society, you somehow undermine the gospel.

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But that's a very truncated and emasculated view of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So that assertion is just false.

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And, Luke, I really appreciate what you said about opposing this top -down approach. Those of us that believe in the authority of God's law in the civil sphere, and by the way, all true historic

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Calvinists should believe that. It's in our confession. That's not something new. We don't believe in simply capturing politics so we can sort of impose

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God's law on everybody. In fact, if we had our way, the civil sphere, the state, would be a lot smaller than it is now.

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It would be radically small. Yes, God's moral law, including how it applies in the judicial sphere, would apply in all areas of life.

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But that's actually, if you read the Bible, very, very narrow. Most of God's law in the

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Bible does not apply in the civil sphere. It does apply there. But the problem is that often our critics, and perhaps those whom we just played, they tend to buy into liberal or leftist premises, which is that if you believe in getting involved in politics, then you obviously must believe in a very large state.

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Well, that's what leftists believe. But when Bible believers, knowledgeable Bible believers, get involved in politics, they're not trying to do that.

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They're wanting to reduce the size of the state to its biblical limits. So this assertion is wrong on several counts.

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That's a great point about that. Maybe just one verse to touch on with that, too. And they quote this, actually, later on in the episode.

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I remember now, 1 Timothy 2, verse 2. The apostle Paul is urging his protégé that, "...for

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kings and all who are in high positions, prayers are to be made, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

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This is good, and it's pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one

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God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." So the apostle is urging Timothy that prayers are to be made for kings and those in high positions.

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Why? So that they'll leave the people of God alone, so that they can propagate the evangel and live in terms of it and proclaim the reality that there is only one mediator between God and men.

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Notice there, the job of the state is not to make people good Christians. The job of the state is to leave the church and the family alone so they can get the gospel so people become

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Christians. That's an important distinction to make. Yes, amen to that. Okay, excellent.

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I'm just going to keep going here because we're just getting started. ...comes the predominant message.

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You know, Justin, I don't want to steal your illustration, so I'm going to just ask you this. If someone were to say to a theonomist, define

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Christianity for me. The way I might frame it, yeah, the gospel ends up being obscured, if theonomy wins the day.

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And here's what I mean. If you were to listen to a theonomist talk about Christianity and what we are called to, and you were to ask a nonbelieving person, sitting and listening to that theonomist talk, what would that nonbeliever conclude

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Christianity is about? Is it about the forgiveness of sins, the imputation of righteousness, and eternal life through Christ alone?

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Or is it about that and something else? That's big for me as a pastor.

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It is. And that's not to say that there's more in the

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Bible than the gospel. There is. Of course. There's church polity. I'll just stop there real quick. So, again, brothers,

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I don't know theonomists. I know none of my friends that hold the theonomy sound like that. And so when

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I hear that, I'm concerned that you're not listening to what we're saying. I'm concerned you're not listening to our sermons and our podcasts.

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I don't know. Maybe you know some people that would claim to be theonomists that sound like that, but I don't know anyone that sounds like that and doesn't sound like anything we're trying to teach.

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So I don't know if you guys want to jump on that. I think it's a minor point. I just wanted to address that quickly. Well, I'd like to jump in.

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What you say is correct. There's another problem, too, historically. Now, while a number of Calvinists historically may not have used that term theonomist, and, of course, there are different variations on how much of the law is applied in society,

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I think they're really writing off a vast majority of the Calvinistic and Reformed tradition.

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Let's take John Calvin in Geneva. Are you saying that he obscured the gospel because he believed in the authority of God's law and society?

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What about the Puritans in England? What about the New England Puritans? What about Kuyper? What about a vast majority before the 20th century and, in some cases, 19th century?

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What about all these Calvinists that did believe in the authority of God's law? Are they in society and not just in the church?

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Are they prepared to say that all of them were obscuring the gospel? I think that that view is embarrassingly stupid.

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I think that maybe just one thing before we press on here to keep coming back to, if you listen to this whole podcast from them, their entire framework, again, this view, unfortunately,

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I believe, conflates the institutional church with the kingdom of God. This is a great point. So, in their view, the only manifestation of the kingdom of God in the earth is the institutional church, which, of course, comes to regional expression in the forms of local churches, but that's where the administration of the sacraments is given, the ministry of the word, the exercise of church discipline, all of that, right?

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The manifestation of the kingdom, where our focus ought to be, is within the walls of the institutional church, and you'll hear them draw the discussion back to that over and over and over and over again.

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What's our responsibility in the church for life in the church? How do we be obedient in the church?

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And I think it just highlights something that we need to put our finger on here is that while these gentlemen, these brothers, remain

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Calvinistic in their soteriology, they do not possess a reformational world and life view.

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Yeah. Yeah, I think, by the way, we ought to point out, too, Zach, the position you described as them holding, that also, for centuries, has been the

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Roman Catholic view, too. It's rather ironic when we hear Reformed brothers champion the equation of the institutional church for the kingdom of God when

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Rome has believed that long before the Reformation. And you're referring to, you know, of course,

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Aquinas' influence and the Greek thought that reality is divided into two stories or two realms.

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You have the upper story, the lower story. The scholastics of Roman Catholicism called it the nature -grace distinction.

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That's right. They believed that in the higher realm was this supernatural, you know, existence.

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And then in the lower realm, you have this common area, which is what they're articulating in their formulation of the common kingdom.

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Right? This area, this neutral sphere where all of us hang out in and do business in and conduct affairs that are common to all of us.

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And then you have the institutional church, which is in the redemptive aspect of reality. Two -kingdom theology is the

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Protestant version of the Roman Catholic nature -grace distinction. I think people really need to understand that. Yes.

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Excellent. And I'm glad you brought that up, Zach. We were talking about this earlier this morning. And they get into this discussion later on, but again,

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I don't think we'll get to it, so it's important to have this now. But you're exactly right. Like, I noticed towards the end, they start to conflate the institutional church with the militant church, essentially.

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Or the kingdom of God, like you're saying. And fail to see a distinction, fail to look at it in different categories, which is what our friend

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Joe Boot calls churchianity. They talk about the mission of the church, which we'll hopefully get into later on.

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Which, by the way, I meant to mention this while we're mentioning Dr. Joe Boot. And Andrew, you probably know this.

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We are officially partnering with the Ezra Institute to bring you

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ReformCon 2024. Oh, wow. So that's in the works. We're trying to lock down location and date right now as we speak.

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Exciting. Spring, probably May -ish of 2024, we will be having

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ReformCon. We are officially partnering with the Ezra Institute and hope to do that as long as we possibly can and bring it to you guys every year.

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So that's in the works. Very excited about that. We want to make it the premier Reform Christian conference.

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Wow. You know my brother, Andrew, will be there as well. You heard it here.

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Yes. I'll be there just to see you guys. Nothing else. Well, you'll be speaking, Lord willing. Okay, let's keep going.

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I'm getting off track here. What ends up happening is the good news gets collapsed into that, that this is the good news.

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There's some clutter thrown on it. Yeah, there's some obscuring of it. That's right. And there's a burden, to use your word,

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Justin, there's a burden that's placed on the believer that the expectation is that there is this heavy expectation that we need to be a part of this social transformation that's happening, that we need to be in the civil sphere and really pressing in on our leaders to make these changes.

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And that's expected of all believers to be a part of that. Like you are obligated as a Christian to be involved in the building of a

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Christian society broadly. And I would argue that really matters for the saints in the pew because that's a burden that we were never meant to bear.

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No. Okay. Man, so much to jump in there. I know, there's like three or four points.

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You bet that it does matter for the saints in the pew. It just might not matter in the exact same way.

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Yes, every single Christian is a missionary. Yes, every single member in the church pew has a responsibility to take part in the restoration and the reconciliation and the recreation of all things in Christ Jesus, which by the way, is the hope of Christianity, right?

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That's the good news of Jesus's kingdom and what he's doing. He is bringing all things and uniting them to himself.

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And that is what he has enlisted us to take part in, the partnership with him, right? As his vice gerants, right?

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Those who are working with him in partnership with him, those who are the co -heirs of his inheritance, that's our responsibility.

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Will that look the same for the mother of six children at home as it will for the pastor going to address city council meetings for trying to make allowance for drag queen story hour?

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No, it won't because there is one body, many parts, there are different roles within, of course, how the church functions, the responsibilities that we have and the unique and various spheres that we occupy, of family and state and church and all of these things.

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So that's what I would say to start off. Andrew, thoughts on that? Yeah, so this is a severe verdict, but it actually is, and I think

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Zach was implying this, a denial of the lordship of Christ in all of life. Yep. I make this point when speaking to audiences a number of times and I say, is

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Jesus Christ Lord of all things? Raise your hand if you believe that. Oh yes, everybody raises their hand. Is there any area of life over which

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Jesus Christ is not Lord? Another hand goes up. Well, if that is the case, then how is it possible to say that it's too heavy a burden to bear to ask

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Christians to press his claims in all areas of life, including in politics?

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Zach, of course, makes the point that not every Christian is called to do that all the time. Not every

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Christian is called to run for office or get involved, but Christianity as a whole is called to relentlessly press the faith in all areas of life and thought.

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Politics is one of them. Education, also music and literature and art and science and technology, all of these other areas.

30:49

So really this is a functional denial of the lordship of Jesus Christ. I would also add very quickly that it's also a denial of the first commission in the

30:57

Bible, and the fundamental commission, and that is the stewardship or dominion commission in Genesis chapter one.

31:04

Now they talk about the great commission, and it is a great commission, but it's not really man's first commission.

31:09

Man's first commission is under God's authority, vicegerent's a good word that Zach used, to steward the earth, to exercise dominion, not in their own name, but as deputies.

31:19

It's as though God has taken the badge, he's taken the badge and put it on man and says, I want you to oversee my earth, my creation.

31:26

It's under my authority, but your job is to oversee it. Well, one aspect of that is politics, and to say, no,

31:32

Lord, we're not going to exercise stewardship in politics, that's getting away from the gospel.

31:38

And the Lord, if I may put words in his mouth reverently, I would say, but that's your job. So really they're asking us to renege and be delinquent, or part of our job that he's given to us.

31:51

And that's a severe denial of obedience. We can't be good disciples of Christ if we're not exercising godly dominion.

31:58

It's such an important point about the garden and Adam, and him being a minister in God's created world.

32:05

I mean, really, when you look at the system that they are operating from, there is a radical discontinuity between creation and recreation.

32:13

Right? They explicitly say that. We're not carrying on the work of Adam. They say that in the episode.

32:20

As if Christ and the redemption that he accomplished at Calvary and his resurrection somehow absolves us of the cultural responsibility.

32:29

When we know that culture is just what man does with God's creation. So somebody's going to do that.

32:35

Somebody's going to inform a cultural view of things, and that's either going to be unguided by God's word, and you get apostate culture, which is clown world that we are currently living in right now, or you're going to get a

32:50

Christ -honoring, faithful -to -God culture, in which we take the structures that God put into the world, which are all very good, the structures, the order, and we take those things, and because of the direction of our hearts, in which

33:05

God has renewed us, given us new life, we change the direction of where those things flow, and we orient them towards a

33:13

God -honoring culture, whereas those who don't know Christ are being deformed, not conformed to the image of Christ, and they're taking the culture away from him, whereas those who are bringing the word of God to bear over all created reality are seeking to conform all things to the image of God in Christ.

33:29

That's the commission. Yes, and so just real quick, before we move on, speaking of how this applies to the people in the pews, so there's a sermon that someone just sent to us, and forgive me,

33:40

I don't remember his name or where it came from, I believe we're going to respond to this when Pastor Jeff gets back, but he's kind of jumping on this bandwagon, you saw it,

33:48

I think, right? He's kind of jumping on the bandwagon, I know you saw it, of this not getting involved in the culture situation.

33:55

And it was actually, it made me sad, because he says at the beginning that he's got, he's in California, in the

34:03

L .A. area, and I think it's Costa Mesa, and essentially he's got people that are coming to him from his church, they've had enough of all the mandates, and the tyranny, and...

34:14

Trans and kids. Commie -fornia, and all this stuff, and they're coming to him saying, what do we do, we've had enough, how do we respond, and they're fired up, they're ready to act, and he essentially just slaps them down and says, it's not your responsibility, it's not your burden.

34:29

Waiting for the final coming. Yeah, and that's why this is so important, so these guys say, you know, they're essentially saying the same thing, it's like, no, that's not your burden, the people in the pew, and we're saying, but it is, it is our responsibility, and we'll get into that more, but did you wanna,

34:44

I'm gonna go on unless you have anything else, Andrew. Just real quick, I would say there's a causal relation between these two things, too.

34:50

It's precisely the refusal to fulfill this dominion commission that creates the vacuum into which all this depravity rushes.

34:58

Yeah. See, that's the point. And so, if we're not responsible in applying Christ's lordship in all of life, then why should we be surprised with the depravity that surrounds us?

35:09

Yeah. We are partly responsible due to our irresponsibility. In other words, when you ecclesiastetize the faith and the

35:15

Bible, you call forth the secularization of the world, right, as you've heard elsewhere. Okay.

35:20

That's right. In terms of the mission of the church, right? Right. Now, when people hear us say this,

35:26

Justin, it's like there's only two sides, right? We talked about this before. There's only red and green.

35:32

There's no other color at all, no other option that's available there. And so, what you guys are saying is that you don't care about holiness, you don't care about the infants who are being murdered.

35:42

You don't care about your neighbor. That's right. It's like, no, it's not at all. No, and it's like God has given us a clear form and way in which we are to interact with the world, and it's not that.

35:53

And to then come over and just put that burden upon someone, and I'll give you some illustrations that, you know, we're getting into this in a little bit,

36:02

Justin, the two kingdoms, but there's this, this is my feedback to my brothers, okay?

36:08

Just my brothers and sisters who are theonomists. Sometimes we use tactics that are just not kind and loving, and we kind of press on people.

36:19

And like, for instance, radical to kingdom is a word that's used. We just throw radical on something. R2K. Right, R2K.

36:26

And so you're saying, because you guys are radical kingdoms, you're just sitting down in your bunkers, and you don't care about society, and you don't care about the innocent.

36:33

You're very insular. You're only inward -looking. You don't care about, yeah. Right, and that's just not true.

36:39

Like, we do care. We do vote. We are called to be a part of this culture and a part of this kingdom, but we aren't the mission of it.

36:47

That's the difference. Our goal is to live peaceably with our government because we have a mission that is outside of that government, and that mission is the advancement of God's kingdom, spiritually speaking, amongst the world.

37:00

But to say that the mission is that every tribe, tongue, and nation will be transformed into a

37:06

Christian nation, this side of Christ's coming is, I think, a misrepresentation of what the good news of the gospel is.

37:15

Okay, so we'll stop right there. I know there's so much I've tried. I'm trying to stick to the main point.

37:21

So I'm really trying to hold off till the end, too, because you know the verse I read at the beginning. I'm trying to hold off because I really want to spend some time on that.

37:29

I'm just going to camp here real quickly on Colossians chapter 1. I think we covered this last week a little bit, but it's clear that Christ came to reconcile all things to himself, all things, heaven on earth, powers, principles, everything.

37:43

Yes. All things Christ came to reconcile, and they seem to be missing that portion of Scripture in a lot of their worlds here.

37:51

But I just want to make that point quickly. I know Zach has a lot to say, and then we'll ask Andrew. Yeah, I'd love to hear what

37:56

Andrew has to say in response to this. I just think that, okay, let's take that thought that the gospel, the good news, the evangel, isn't about the nations coming to Christ, this side of heaven.

38:07

I just, I don't think you can make it work biblically, scripturally speaking. I think that the prophets speak just like Christ speaks, you know, in Isaiah, and Isaiah 60 speaks about, you know, the nations coming to your light and kings to the brightness of your rising.

38:22

All of that is based on what's come before in Isaiah 59 about how God looked upon, you know, the earth, didn't see any justice there, so he donned the breastplate of righteousness himself, and he came down and he did what his people had failed to do, which was to be a light to the nations.

38:38

And then in him, he's going to draw all nations to himself. And that kingdom that he is inaugurating, he did so,

38:48

Isaiah 9, by coming into this world as fully

38:53

God and fully man, the incarnation. That one event right there, when it says in Isaiah 9, chapter 6,

38:59

Isaiah 9, verse 6 and 7 and following, of the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end.

39:07

When did that begin, right? When did the king sit down on his throne and start reigning and all the work that he did and accomplished before that, we're told in the first couple of verses of the chapter, it's when the child was born, when the son was given, right?

39:23

That inauguration of the new heavens and the new earth and the breaking in of that rule of God into history in the incarnation.

39:33

And then from that point forward, what is Christ doing? He sends out his people, his global people, to bring all the nations to him.

39:42

And that's the scope of the Great Commission itself. It's a worldwide evangelization.

39:49

Well, that's why eschatology matters because they hold the position that Christ's kingdom isn't here yet.

39:56

They would say what you just said, they would say it's future. We're not even to that point yet. And that's why it's so important.

40:01

But Andrew, go ahead. I know you're ready to chime in. Well, I mean, I agree with everything Zach said.

40:06

Those texts refute it. I'm sure if you ask these dear brothers, and I would add like you, they are very sincere, and they do believe the word.

40:14

I think they've just severely misunderstood it. But if you were to ask them, what is the job of the church?

40:19

I presume at least they would say, well, to evangelize the world. I mean, that is the Great Commission.

40:25

But to say that we are called to evangelize the world, but we're not called to Christianize the world, really is to speak nonsense because evangelized people become

40:35

Christians and they start reordering all areas of life and thought according to biblical truth.

40:40

This obviously does not happen all at once. The Bible is very clear in the parables and elsewhere in 1 Corinthians 15.

40:46

Christ rules and rules gradually to the end of time and so on. But nonetheless, to evangelize is to Christianize.

40:54

So to say that our job is not to make everything Christian is really to say our job is not to evangelize.

41:01

And that's a severe defect in their worldview. Amen. All right, we'll keep going because there's some more good stuff.

41:08

Sure. I think, last couple of introductory comments before we get to some of our responses to theonomy pastorally,

41:17

I think that, again, not trying to be uncharitable, but I think that theonomy comes across as very this -worldly, if I can put it that way.

41:28

It's very earthbound in terms of its emphases, whereas as confessional guys, one of the things that we embrace is the other -worldliness of confessionalism.

41:38

That we are not, and we'll unpack this more in a minute, our chief concern as pastors is not to turn this world into the new

41:45

Jerusalem, but it is to prepare our people for the world to come. That's right. And we'll talk about that more in a minute.

41:52

I would just say that those two things are not mutually exclusive. Yeah. Those last two points that I made,

41:58

I think that those are one in the same calling. Yeah. And I would also ask if they ever pray the Lord's Prayer, Thy King become,

42:04

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And the fact is that we are other -worldly people, and we are this -worldly precisely because we are other -worldly people.

42:14

I think beneath that, and there is a sort of, and I know that they would deny this, so I want to be very cautious, there is,

42:20

I think, at least, perhaps a Gnostic hint, an intent, that somehow that which is material, that which is visible, that which is seen, that which is tactile, that is somehow inferior to the unseen world.

42:34

But in the Bible, all of these things mesh. Jesus is Lord of both the material and the immaterial world, the seen and the unseen world.

42:43

Ephesians 1 makes that clear, Colossians 1 makes that clear. Jesus Christ is mediator not just of redemption, but He's also mediator of creation.

42:50

And He's mediator of redemption precisely because He's mediator of creation. So when they say, well, you guys are very this -worldly, you bet we are.

42:59

You bet we are. That's what we're called to be. Never back off from that. You read in the

43:04

Dominion Commission and the Gospel Commission, well, don't they believe in the Great Commission? Isn't the Great Commission this -worldly?

43:10

Well, we're supposed to disciple the nations. That's this -worldly. What, we're supposed to disciple angels?

43:16

We're supposed to disciple somebody else? It's nonsense. So I think there is this sort of dualistic hint, and it runs right through modern evangelicalism, and it cuts the nerve of Christian responsibility in this world.

43:28

And it really denies the authority of the Word of God in all of life. Amen. That's good. And again, going back to Colossians 1,

43:35

I already mentioned that. We're going to, again, get into that in 2 Corinthians 5 as well. But I'll just mention this here.

43:41

I don't know if we'll have time to squeeze it in somewhere else, but Proverbs 29, 16 is one of my favorite verses.

43:48

It's where the people, or where there's no prophetic vision, the people cast off restraint. And that's what we're seeing in our culture now because of the church, because of this sort of thinking.

43:57

And brothers, because I know you make this point later, I don't want to blame you for this. I'm not going to say it's your fault. But I will say that it is this theology that has abandoned the culture, that stopped speaking into the culture worldly things, right?

44:10

This world, it stopped having a prophetic vision, a prophetic witness into the culture.

44:16

And what we are witnessing is the people have cast off restraint. That's a biblical principle from Proverbs.

44:23

You can't get around that. And I don't know how you could say we can't think worldly and still try to say that that verse is true.

44:30

I would say in addition to that too, you know, the heavy emphasis here on holy lives, you know, personal piety, personal devotion is great.

44:42

We should all strive for that as Christians. But with this type of view, again, this theology, also,

44:49

I think what you tend to have is you have Christians with this kind of radical line of a secular sacred divide that's running down through their entire framework.

44:59

And so there's a struggle to apply the word of God to every aspect of their lives, right?

45:05

They see the truths of scripture and they're trying to relate them to, you know, their vocation, their education, their family, you know, the life that they live in the public sphere.

45:15

And I think adopting this type of framework prevents that from happening and ultimately produces, you know, believers who might, you know, be living very holy lives in terms of prayer and scripture reading and, you know, prayer meeting attendance and church attendance and all that, but ultimately have an immature view of where this is all going and how to apply these things in their everyday lives because if these things are of lesser value, then the specific content of God's revelation doesn't have anything to say to them other than for the purpose of getting people into heaven one day.

45:49

Amen. And by the way, if that's true, Zach, then God wasted a lot of ink in his Bible, didn't he? I mean, if our only concern is living a holy life and going to heaven, it's truly remarkable that God wrote so much in his book that involved much more than those two things.

46:03

Yeah. And that's why they have, in practice, a very narrow Bible. Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to do something here.

46:11

I know Andrew's getting low on time. I want to make sure we can respond to 2 Corinthians 5. So I'm actually going to jump ahead to the end of their show.

46:18

It's at the 43, 49 minute mark. We're going to address this right now because I want to make sure we get to it.

46:24

And if we have time, we'll come back and finish because there's some gems we've got to get to. But I want to make sure because this is kind of part of the discussion we're having now.

46:31

So, okay, again, this is towards the end of the episode. I'm going to start right here. ...ourselves from it in a wrong way where the world looks at Christ and is drawn towards him because of his love.

46:42

And in this particular world, there's like this ostracizing where we're being vocally,

46:48

I think vulgar at times, towards sinners where we should be drawing them with the light of the gospel.

46:54

We're condemning them only with the law. There you go. I'm done. Yeah. I don't have a lot of pointed things to say other than as you were talking, this maybe is a final thought for me and maybe not a profound one, but the

47:08

New Testament is very optimistic, but it's optimistic from an eternal perspective.

47:14

It's new heavens and new earth optimism. And that in no way is contradictory with the exhortation to love your brothers and sisters and do good to your neighbor.

47:24

And we ought not pit the two against each other. So this charge against guys like us who would not adhere to theonomy, were not post -millennial or post -millenarian in our eschatology, sorry for my stumbling there, but we're not thinking that what we do is of no consequence and we have no desire nor do we feel any impetus to go and serve people.

47:49

Quite the opposite. Because we know that Christ is coming back and that every promise he's ever made he's going to keep, we're going to seek to love our brothers and sisters and do good to all men, especially those in the midst of God.

48:02

Amen. I think so, but we can comment on that. Justin, I know we are on a time cap, so thank you guys for listening.

48:08

I think it was 35 minutes. Okay, I totally clicked the wrong thing. Maybe you can find it while we jump in on that real fast.

48:14

Yeah, go ahead. Every promise that God made will come to pass. I would say, including the promise that all the nations will be discipled in accordance with all that Christ has commanded.

48:26

I think that when Jesus gives us that mission and he gives us that promise, he intends for it to be successful and he intends for it to be fulfilled.

48:34

And the scope of that promise is rather large, rather global in its scope.

48:41

And I think, Andrew mentioned this earlier on when we were talking about this, so much of this discussion hinges on the civil aspect or the judicial aspect of God's law applied to the modern day.

48:54

I think, I gave a definition of theonomy last week, you know, God's ethical rule of men at all times by his word.

49:02

This discussion goes so far beyond just the civil sphere and the judicial realm in terms of applying the moral equity, the general equity of God's law to today.

49:13

This is about applying God's word to every area of created reality. So, I mean, we're talking about the arts, we're talking about politics, we're talking about law, we're talking about medicine, which they actually take a little jab at.

49:26

I'm hoping to get to that. No pun intended. They take a little jab at earlier and talk about how, you know, medicine itself, whereas, you know, theonomists would agree the

49:36

Bible is not an exhaustive textbook for how to bake a cake, right? Nor is it an exhaustive textbook for how to do medicine.

49:43

However, when you have apostate hearts doing medicine, what you're gonna get is what we've had for the last couple years here in this nation.

49:51

And that's one point where I think they were trying to, you know, make a, make a, not a gotcha, but they wanted that to be a highlight in their presentation and say, well, you know, what about medicine?

50:03

What about all these other areas of life? And I would say, yeah, and the worst thing imaginable is for men to occupy all of those different vocations and not be guided by the explicit revelation of God's holy word.

50:15

That is absolutely terrifying to me. And I think we've seen some of the effects of that and hopefully we're getting back to the need for that because what are we saying in all of this?

50:25

It's not just the judicial aspects of God's law. What we're saying is this. You've heard it elsewhere. All of Christ for all of life.

50:33

Every area, right? Every sphere of authority, every subject, all of it belongs to Jesus.

50:39

And so, that's why his word needs to be there explicitly. Yeah. Andrew, do you want anything to that?

50:45

just quickly, I agree entirely. I think what Zach is talking about is precisely what we read.

50:51

These fellows talked about the reformed confessions. Well, in the Westminster 1904 and London Baptist 1904, we read about general equity.

50:57

That's what we're talking about. The Bible, God's law doesn't tell us how to bake a cake. But you know what? The general equity, that is basically the general truth of it, does tell us the godly rules by which we would bake a cake.

51:09

The way of thinking, the way of acting. And that's true of everything else. The oddity, too, I wonder if they would say

51:15

God's law would apply in certain areas outside the church but not others. I mean, presumably,

51:20

I mean, we shouldn't murder, we shouldn't steal, and so on. And they might say, well, that's natural law, which of course is another problem.

51:27

But why do we want to draw the line of judicial sphere? Right. And you're exactly right, Zach. That's a very good point about the obsession with the judicial sphere.

51:36

But we're not the people out there pounding and saying that God's law is mainly or principally about the judicial or civil sphere.

51:42

That is one sphere. But that's not the main sphere we're involved in. And yet I think we're radically misunderstood on that point precisely because we do believe in the authority of God's law everywhere.

51:53

Yeah. Okay. So I, is it 2 Corinthians 5, the 35th minima? Yes, I believe so.

51:59

Okay. I'm just going to, because I think, Andrew, you got about 10 minutes left, brother. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. So let's just,

52:05

I'm not going to play it. I'll just, I'll just say this. He kind of just throws it in there.

52:11

Essentially says, well, I mean, look at 2 Corinthians 5. We're just, we're ambassadors. We're ambassadors for Christ.

52:16

We're foreigners in the land. Heavenly citizens. You know, we have earthly citizenship, but ultimately he lets it slip.

52:24

Like because of our status as ambassadors of Christ, because we're pilgrims, because we're exiles, right?

52:30

I would love to hear you speak to that just a little bit. We don't have authority here.

52:36

He says that. He lets it slip kind of right at the end there where, you know, the other pastor, the other brother there is saying, yeah, we're ambassadors for Christ.

52:44

And he's like, yep. And we, you have no authority here. Right. And that's effectively what this is rendered to all of that talk, you know, about this subject.

52:54

And it, does that really what that means? When, when Paul says that we are ambassadors of a different kingdom, that we don't have authority, we don't have the authority of the

53:05

King, that we don't have Is that what that means? Yeah. So, I'm just going to read the verse here quickly and then I want Andrew to respond before he has to leave.

53:12

And I read it at the beginning, but I'll, again, this is 2 Corinthians 5. I'll start in verse 18.

53:18

All this is from God who through Christ reconciled to us himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

53:26

So we, you know, this is the context of the verse of the ambassador, right? So being ambassadors, what does that look like?

53:33

It's Christ reconciled us to him and now he's given us this ministry of reconciliation. And didn't the text just say he reconciled all things to himself?

53:41

Um... Isn't that what you just read? No. Wait. And gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

53:47

All this is from God who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. But that's 1 Corinthians 1.

53:52

Right. Reconciling all things. But it says in verse 19 then, that is, and Christ God was, here we go,

53:59

Christ God was reconciling the world to himself. Cosmos, right?

54:04

Yes. Not counting their trespasses against him and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Then it says, verse 20, therefore we are ambassadors for Christ.

54:12

God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God. Um... So, if you look at that, the defining ambassador in that context, it's

54:24

Christ came to reconcile the world to himself. Again, Colossians 1. Reconcile all things. It's not just souls.

54:31

It's the world. That is the, the ministry of reconciliation that's been given to us by Christ.

54:37

Andrew, go. Yeah, it's just head -scratching why they would invoke that particular verse when as you guys indicate, that verse refutes the very position.

54:45

I mean, think about it. We are called to be ambassadors. What is the ambassador's job? It's to represent one kingdom, one nation to another.

54:51

We are indeed heavenly people, heavenly citizens that on earth, which by the way belongs to the king that's currently run by rebels in particular places.

55:01

We're called to say be reconciled to God. That is, submit to the Lord. Now think about the Great Commission.

55:07

What does Jesus Christ say? All authority is given to me in heaven and earth. Therefore, well, what is he doing?

55:12

He's vesting his people with his divine lordship. Now, we are not lords.

55:18

There is a creator -creature distinction. And yet, again, he's placing the badge on us and saying, under my authority, you're called to represent me and say bow the knee to King Jesus by grace through faith and obey his word.

55:30

By the way, those texts you mentioned like Ephesians 1 and Colossians 1 are correct. All things must be brought under the authority of Jesus Christ.

55:38

And to limit it and say there are other areas, there are certain areas that are not under his authority or not under his authority until he returns is really a denial of the

55:46

Great Commission. It's a denial of the Dominion Commission in Genesis chapter 1. So that text of itself just undermines the very thing that they're trying to assert.

55:56

I also sent to you guys and just texted you, I deal with this issue of pilgrims and aliens, which is not what they say it is.

56:02

If you're willing to put that in the show notes or whatever, that might be helpful. I actually have done about a 10 minute video on this, the danger of pilgrim theology.

56:11

In Hebrews chapter 11 and other texts, and Peter, when he talks about pilgrims and aliens, he doesn't mean what they're saying.

56:17

He doesn't mean otherworldly. Basically, I'll tell you quickly, what he means is a pilgrim or an alien is somebody who is currently living among hostile people.

56:26

It doesn't mean that we are aliens or pilgrims to the earth itself. We are aliens and pilgrims among an apostate hostile people.

56:34

And our whole goal is to preach the gospel and the truth and bring them under Christ's authority. Let's remember this, guys.

56:39

The earth is the Lord's in all of its fullness. This isn't the devil's world. So we basically are here to help call rebels back to the true king.

56:49

They have attacked the true king, and we're his ambassadors on this earth, which belongs to him. You are called to submit to the true king in every area of life and thought.

56:58

That, in essence, is the great commission. That kind of is the great commission. Those brothers, I think, well -meaning and sincere, greatly misunderstand the calling.

57:07

We ask ourselves the question, what in this world is God doing? He is turning rebels back to the king and restoring true righteousness and justice in the world.

57:16

That is what God is doing in this world, and we're called to be his ambassadors and co -laborers in that.

57:22

Amen. It's a fully -orbed Christian world and life view. It's the fundamental

57:27

Christian confession. Jesus is Lord, and so what's the question? Is there anywhere his lordship is off -limits?

57:34

Yeah. Right? Any sphere, any jurisdiction, any group of people, and on that one note,

57:40

I mean, the purpose of God in the world from that verse in 2 Corinthians 5 till you look at John 3 .16, everybody knows that verse, but it's

57:46

John 3 .17 that a lot of people don't know. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

57:55

Amen. Where is all this going? It's being restored to God. Amen. So one last verse here before we close out, and I actually got this from you,

58:06

Andrew, but this is such an important point that I had missed for most of my life, right?

58:13

First John 3 .8. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil, was to vanquish the works of Satan, I think is how you worded it,

58:23

Andrew. That's right. And of course, how far does the works of Satan extend as far as the curse is found?

58:32

I mentioned this last week, but as far as the curse is found, that's everything. That's everywhere. That's why

58:38

Jesus came, and we miss that so often. I've missed that for so much of my life. The gospel is so much more than just saving souls.

58:47

Jesus didn't come just to save souls. He came to vanquish the works of Satan, to reconcile all things to himself, and if we're not participating in that as in 2

58:55

Corinthians 5, and that ministry of reconciliation he's given us, then we're failing to do everything that he's asked us to do.

59:01

And just that point alone. Jesus said that his ministry was binding the strong man and plundering his house.

59:09

Now is the judgment. The ruler of this world is cast out. Jesus disarmed

59:15

Satan. He put the principalities and powers to open spectacle at the cross, disarming them and casting them to open shame, and he calls us to take part in that plundering of Satan's kingdom.

59:26

And that's really, maybe end on that critical key point right there. There are two kingdoms. There is the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness.

59:34

Amen. And God either has you in one or the other, and for the people of God, he has transferred us out of the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of his beloved son.

59:43

And as Andrew said, our calling is to turn back and herald his crown rights into this fallen, rebellious world and call upon them to enter the kingdom of grace by grace through faith.

59:57

Andrew, any closing thoughts, brother? No, you guys are bright on the money. I appreciate that.

01:00:03

I hope you guys will let me mention that I lead the Center for Culture Leadership. Check it out at ChristianCulture .com,

01:00:08

and I write for Substack and BoxAllen .com, so just check all my books out on Amazon and other

01:00:15

YouTube channels and so on. So you guys are always kind enough to have me on. And here's the book again. I'll hide my face.

01:00:22

Nice. There it is. Pick it up. Thank you so much, guys. Appreciate you. Of course, brother. So I'm going to leave us with one clip real quick.

01:00:31

We don't even need to respond to this. I'm going to just say it quickly. So they did another episode called, what was it?

01:00:39

A Misplaced Zeal of Cultural Transformation. I guess this would probably be the third one in the series. And I'm just going to play.

01:00:46

It's literally, the show is 37 minutes, 41 seconds. It's at 3625. It's in the last minute of the show.

01:00:52

And so what they usually do is they'll have what we're going to do. We're going to have the after show after I close out here for all our

01:00:58

All Access subscribers. So they literally end the show with this. And I'm just going to, I'm like, brothers, really?

01:01:06

Like this, I just feel unfair and just kind of a, like a pot shot taken at us. And I just wanted to just mention it.

01:01:13

Like, I didn't feel like it was very charitable. So here, just real quick. Justin, don't answer this here.

01:01:20

You can answer it in simpler form. But could this movement be a new form of prosperity gospel?

01:01:30

It's an interesting thought. We'll talk about it in the SR. That's it. I'm like, guys, judging by the cliffhanger,

01:01:36

I'm going to guess the answer might be in the affirmative. Like, come on, brothers. I appreciate you guys. But I just feel like that wasn't fair.

01:01:43

Anyways, thank you everyone again for for your support of Apology Studios.

01:01:48

You can go to apologystudios .com sign up for your all access account, which we are continually putting out more and more content, which, by the way,

01:01:55

Dr. Sandlin has an amazing Apology Academy on prayer that you got to hear.

01:02:02

You got to see that. And he also has a really good book on that. What is it?

01:02:08

Sorry, what's the name of that book? Prayer Changes Things. Yeah, Prayer Changes Things. Thank you. Curing Timid Piety. Yeah.

01:02:15

So you can go there, sign up. You also can get your free Bonson You account at apologystudios .com.

01:02:22

Thank you again to the Bonson family for gifting us with that. And you can go to End Abortion Now and sign up your church to get involved with us.

01:02:32

You'll go through Zach, if your church isn't involved, isn't already signed up to join with us in trying to end abortion in this nation.

01:02:40

And that's all I got, Zach. Any closing thoughts?

01:02:46

Nope. This has been educational and hopefully helpful to listeners. So like I mentioned, we will be continuing here in the after show in just a minute.

01:02:55

So if you're an All Access subscriber, just jump on over there and we'll continue to respond to as much as we can in about 30 minutes.

01:03:05

And so I just lost my closing music. So we're just going to act like that. You can sing, right? Can you sing?

01:03:11

Nope. Can you close it out? Yeah, close out with Mr. Sandman. I already closed that out so you don't want to hear me sing.

01:03:19

Andrew, thanks again brother for being on. We love you. God bless you guys. Andrew, love you brother. See you soon. Love you guys so much.