The Marriage Pyramid with Dr. Danny Purvis

Marriage as a Picture of Christ and the Church

Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is the ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Now I know that many of you who are married have absolutely no problems in your marriage. So this episode will be for a friend of yours because you have no problems whatsoever in your marriage. But if you have a friend who's struggling.

This episode may be for them. I'm sure it's not for you, but we have a special guest. Dr. Danny Purvis with us. He is from Growth Project Radio. We're going to discuss his new book Called The Marriage Pyramid.

So welcome Danny.

Hey, thanks Andrew. It's an honor to be on your show with you. I really appreciate you taking the time to to chat with me here today.

Well, first off it would be proper for me to thank you for your service. And I want to talk about your your Navy career to start. So you were you were a chaplain in the Navy for 20 years. Yep. That's exactly right.

Yep. And. So what what got you into the Navy? Why Navy? Yeah, that's a that's a really good question. I.

I try not to make it sound facetious and and And trying to find a weasley way out of it by saying this is where God want me. But it was completely it was completely up to him. I the the Navy chaplaincy military chaplaincy In general specifically the Navy was not on my radar screen at all coming out of out of seminary.

I went to one of the seminaries. I went to initially went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. I left there when I graduated. Went to work for the home. Well then called the Home Mission Board now called the North American Mission Board.

For two years as that was wrapping up. Uh, I uh, I was wondering what what I was going to do next what God was leading me to and uh, it was really interesting, uh that that the Navy the Military chaplaincy it just came up in a conversation and I wasn't even thinking in terms of the Navy at all.

Because I had when I had to help, you know. As a lot of people do to help serve their country and go to school I had joined the South Carolina Army National Guard. I'd been in the National Guard for six years and had finished my tour there.

And so when I was looking at military chaplaincy my natural Inclination was to go back to a service that I was familiar with which was the army. But it was a completely closed door every single time. I tried to reach out to somebody to talk to them about it.

I never got phone calls back. I never got emails back. It was it was beginning to look like just a completely closed door and then of all people my mom Uh emailed me at one point and said that she had had seen where the Navy was recruiting Military chaplains and that maybe I should take a look at that and I was thinking yeah, right the Navy here I am army guys.

No way in the world. They're going to get me in the Navy. Well, it wasn't long after I made that initial phone call and that's exactly what ended up happening. God was completely in charge of that process from beginning to end.

I made one phone call they initiated A contact back with me got me walked me through the paperwork all the uh. All of the the stuff. That you have to do to become anything having to do with the federal government has a lot of stuff attached to it.

And so it'll walk us all the way through that stuff. And then the next thing, you know Uh, I I get in and and i'm going to chaplain school. Then i'm at my first duty station in 29 palms, california with uh with first marine division out there.

And uh thinking i'll do my one or two tours and i'll go on with my life and this will be kind of a fun chapter to remember uh, and uh 20 years later, uh, I retired from there so it was uh, It's been an interest.

It was an interesting journey. It was god showed me a lot of really neat stuff in there. I enjoyed a lot of it. There's stuff I didn't enjoy too much about it. It you know, it's not not a whole lot of fun being separated from your family for months at a time.

All the moves every few years, uh, but uh, it was it was a great opportunity.

So you started off well in army and then you just you went navy. I had to go to the dark side. Yeah I don't know.

I don't know how that worked out and to this day. It really is interesting to me. I I would have never dreamed in a million years. I would have ended up with the navy. I really didn't. It was not to say it was on my wouldn't on my radar screen would be inaccurate because it wasn't anywhere close to that.

I just shows you how amazing god is that he will work these things out that it was. It was the last thing I saw coming.

Yeah, well, it's it is a thing that Prepared you really for. A lot of what we're going to talk about today with your book.

No, absolutely. The genesis of it came from my very first duty station.

Yeah, well and You described that in the book. Let's actually since that is pertinent to what we're Discussing later, but why don't you talk about that now? And then we'll we'll get to the book in another segment.

But how did that first duty station? Well, I was.

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to jump in there on you. But yeah, it was um, it was really interesting. I was uh, very green as you can probably imagine. Uh had never been a military chaplain before had some had some experience with the military in general.

But not as a not as a chaplain. And so I was assigned to a um an artillery battalion marine corps artillery battalion. A lot of people don't know this but the marine corps is actually part of the department of the navy.

And so they don't have their own marine corps doesn't have their own chaplains. They use navy chaplains. So actually of my 20 years in the navy 10 of it was actually spent with Marine corps units and so my very first duty station was with an artillery battalion out in 29 palms, california uh, marine corps air ground air ground combat center out there and.

The navy at that time, uh had adopted a program a premarital Program called prep. I don't know if you're familiar with that if you've ever heard of prep. But we were actually they adopted that as the formal Uh premarital, uh program that we would use to help get young, uh, Marines and sailors who were getting married.

Integrated into that lifestyle and to make sure they understand to give them a better chance at success. Because it was a force multiplier with the military if if uh, if a uh, if a soldier or marine a sailor or marines um.

Marriage was doing well. That was a good thing for the uh for the for the navy if it wasn't going so well. It's not a good thing. So it had ramifications beyond just the interpersonal relationship between husbands and females.

So the military had a vested interest in seeing these folks really doing well in their marriage. So we had we'd adopted prep. I went through the prep training and at the university of colorado. They sent me out there for uh for a week and went through the prep training.

And so it was it wasn't very long before after I got back that I was inserted into the training Rotation there to to do prep to do sections of prep and I had never I had never engaged with married couples or pre-married couples on that level before I had never had the opportunity to talk to.

A large group of people even though prep was designed specifically For people who were about to get married. It was also open to folks who had been married for a while. So we had a mixture of engaged couples and uh folks who had been married for a while.

And it was really the first time yeah, I would I guess I would have been about 30 at that point. That was really probably the first time in my life where I started being intentional. About thinking about what marriage actually looks like what a successful marriage actually looks like and what does an unsuccessful marriage looks like and?

You know, why are the unsuccessful marriages unsuccessful? Why are the good ones good? How does this all work? And so it they sort of threw me into the into the deep end of the pool and uh I was looking at the prep stuff and I really liked it.

But I thought there was some stuff that could have been added in there that I thought could have been even a little more helpful. And that's where to be honest with you. That's where the marriage page marriage pyramid started.

It was um one of the very first uh Prep classes I did I introduced the marriage pyramid, uh in not in the form that it's in now. It is it has undergone a lot of changes over the last 20 plus years uh, but uh, but that was that was the genesis of it how in the world am I going to Sit out there and uh and and look at these these uh, these couples sitting across from me uh, and and communicate to them how important this is and how um, You just not people are just not do a good marriage.

They're just not you have to work at it. There are things there are landmines all over the place. There are things people don't think about and so how is the how was the? Best way at least I was thinking at the time.

That was the best way that I can communicate to these folks. Kind of where they are. And and where they want to be and what are some of those those obstacles out there? And that was that was the genesis of the whole thing.

Counseling Military Marriages and the Need for Biblical Wisdom

Well The thing that i've noticed in with years of counseling and then specifically with military. Two big things that i've noticed you end up dealing with with military suicide and marriage. Yes and. It really the military life does put a lot of strain on a marriage.

I think after 20 years of military counseling You're gonna learn and you're learning it in a secular environment. So you can't always appeal to them and say this is what the bible says because not all of them care what the bible says.

That that's true. And and that's a great point you bring up and I do want to make sure I clarify something that when when. How it works for lack of a better word with me I mean every chaplain's a little bit different when it comes to these types of things.

One of the things that we are actually were required to sign it was it was a document we were required to sign. Going into the navy as I was going into the navy as a chaplain is that I would not proselytize.

Now here's the interesting thing. It didn't define what proselytizing was. And so I left it to my conscience to decide what that actually meant. And so if it was a if it was a situation where people were forced to be there a change of command.

Um some sort of military function where they were ordered to be in the audience. Uh, then I would not take advantage of that situation. And and try to influence them necessarily overtly with the gospel um, if that makes any sense, but.

But the caveat that the moment they voluntarily walk into my office. And seek out my counsel then I will counsel them from the perspective. That my denomination expected me to have and that my faith tradition and conscience Expected me to have and so every single person every single couple that came into my office.

They got the god stuff now. They didn't always like it. And they didn't always respond to it. But they act but they got it and I didn't. I didn't beat that horse. If I if I got the sense and you know as well as I do you've done counsel.

You've talked to people, you know when people are receptive to what you're saying, and you know when they're not um so they would get the basics of that of what. What a marriage is supposed to look like from a biblical standpoint.

But if their eyes started to glass over and it was clear they were not interested. I gave that to them and then I would move on to other stuff as well. But I always tried my very very best to make sure that.

Anybody who voluntarily walked into my office for any type of counseling got that aspect of it whether they wanted or not. But like I said, I didn't I didn't cram it down their throats. I used the I let the holy spirit guide me in those situations.

There were people who were oftentimes very open to that. They liked it they wanted to hear more and there are those that were completely closed off and I and I and then I addressed those couples, uh, as uh as as I needed to.

But being in military, there are certain things that are required and therefore there were probably Times that you ended up having to counsel someone not by their choice. Not by your choice, but by military's choice because they needed it and yet they really weren't there.

To hear the truths of god's word. They were there. Probably because they're forced to because they were in trouble most of them.

Look, the reality is and and this is this is not hyperbole. I would say of all the people that I counseled whether they were married couples whether they were individuals regardless of the circumstances.

Of all of the people who walked through my door through 20 years and we're talking about hundreds upon hundreds of people I would say a good 80 of them plus had no. They didn't want to hear anything about god.

It had nothing to do with god in any way shape or form. Uh, it was at times to be i'll be honest with you. It was a little discouraging um, but uh, but. You know, I I they always got it. They always got some aspect of it.

Uh, they always understood where I was coming from in my perspective. I would always tell them There were certain things I couldn't help them with. Because the only way I could help them with it is if it came from a christian perspective.

Or specifically a biblical perspective and you don't want to hear that so i'll try to help you over here with this. But this is going to be the better answer. So it was always a little bit of a juggling out.

But I would say well easily 80 maybe more I may be I may be underestimating but easily 80 of the people that came in to see me had no. They didn't want to deal with god in any way shape or form.

Now the reason I bring that up is because as you work in your book on marriage you work on this book. It's called the marriage pyramid. It's not a pyramid structure, by the way. Yes, you know.

It's funny. You should mention that. That never dawned on me. I was talking to our mutual friend colleen sharp on theology gals. I was I was on with her. I think a couple of weeks ago. And she had mentioned it to a friend of hers.

And she said she had to explain to her it wasn't what her friend thought and colleen was just going to let it go. And I was like no, you got to tell me what did she think it was? And and it was that it was that I never crossed my mind that people think of it as a as a like a hierarchical Structure of the of the uh of the marriage relationship.

I never crossed my mind. We'll see now colleen's.

The the woman who had issue with the name thought of it differently than what I thought which colleen had said to me that There was a lady in her group that had an issue with the name of the book and I thought Marriage pyramid the pyramid like so it's a pyramid scheme like that's how where I went like a ponzi type scheme.

And where they had an issue was where they had some folks who are from Some church backgrounds where the men have complete say in marriage. And I have the wives have none. I I was counseling a woman this week.

Um. Her husband controls all the money. He doesn't let her have any friends. She she goes to church, but she's not allowed to talk to anybody. He can he takes vacations on his own and from that structure where they have the idea that Everything is about the mail.

Then yeah, I could see. They have that but you had a totally different reason for the name that we're going to get into drastically.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I didn't even foresee that it was amazing. Like I said when I was talking to colleen She had mentioned this lady and then she was just going to let it go and I said I can't let this go.

You got to tell me what she thought. Uh, and I was I was flummoxed. To be honest with you I never crossed my mind that it would be interpreted that way. But it just shows you the filters that we have which is why I make the book.

And we'll talk about this later as we get more into it. But it's why I made the book as general as I did because I tried to make it Applicable to the filters that we all have in front of us. Every single one of us speaks through a filter and we hear through a filter and our filters are not all the same.

And so I tried to make it general enough that it would be adaptable to all of these different filters. But also specific enough to be helpful regardless of what the filter is if that makes any sense.

Why Christians Need a Biblical View of Marriage

Yeah, and and the thing is and this is why I want to bring this up for folks is to realize that You were approaching this subject whether you thought in the beginning of oh, this is what i'm going to build a lot of my My counseling on but you didn't plan that but over years of counseling mostly to people who don't want to hear.

They're forced to listen. They do not want to hear the bible's perspective on it and yet using biblical principles. To help them in their marriage. Now reason that becomes really helpful for folks is because guess what?

There's a lot of christians who want the bible. But they don't always want to actually listen. Yeah. It's it's one thing to to hear someone say this is what a biblical marriage looks like is another to Actually put it into practice and you had people who don't even want the biblical perspective.

But then are forced to put it into practice. Yeah, and I think that's going to be an encouragement to folks who are struggling in a marriage. Struggling with thinking that this could never be repaired.

Yes.

Andrew here was the here was the thing that was so so demoralizing to me for a long time, uh for years when I first started doing this because People ask, you know, what do military chaplains do? I would say the vast majority of the time.

And at least from my my perspective and the ones the guys that I that I work with folks that I worked with Over the last 20 years will tell you probably the same thing the vast majority of what I did was counsel people.

That was the vast majority of my work was counseling and of that counseling of the vast majority of that was probably uh marriage counseling relationship counseling, so I I would see these couples they would come in.

And we would begin talking and they would be coming in to me. Unfortunately. Usually I was the last resort. By the time they had gotten to me a lot of times and this was this was really too bad. By the time they'd gotten to me not only had the bridges been burned, but the ashes been gathered up and burned again.

So it was really difficult to to be in that spot to try to help them but one of the things that used to Used to really bother me still does but because i'm not as involved with it as I used to but one of the things that used to bother me so much is that I would have these couples and Couples come in and I would know from the beginning that they're on the verge of divorce that this is really kind of uh This is a hail mary.

This is the last one that they're going to try to do to make this thing work. And I would just let them talk. I try to do what a good counselor does and listen way more than I talk. And I would just let them go.

I would pick one and i'd say tell me what's going on. And they would go on for a while and then i'd stop them and say okay. Now you tell me what what do you think is going on? And I would listen to the issues and I would sit there and listen for 45 or 50 minutes at times while these.

While these folks are telling me this and at the end of that i'm thinking to myself I haven't heard one thing that should be leading to these people to divorce not one. I can't hear one single thing. That I would point to and say that's the thing I can understand now while they're on the edge of on the verge of divorce.

Because of this thing that they keep saying you keep bringing up I would hear that over and over and over again. Uh, and yet that so many of them would end up divorced when they didn't have to be. Uh, and so I I knew then I had to start developing My ideas and how to address these situations in a in a more unique way because they think that this is.

That this thing that they're going through these things that they're going through are fatal and they're not. But they think they are and so how in the world do I am? I going to be able to get them to see that they're not as fatal as they think they are and and uh, And it was a very difficult difficult thing to do.

Princeton Seminary and the Value of Being Challenged

So When we get back from this break, you went to a school that would be kind of surprising. Being as conservative as you are and I want to talk about that because you went to a school that you people don't think of as well.

Conservative from a person who as you are quite conservative. So I want to talk about where you went to seminary where you got your doctorate and why after this?

Justification. This theological term is legal in nature, but to understand it. We must first understand our legal predicament. Because we have sinned against god i .e broken his law and thought word indeed.

We are guilty in his court and must be punished as lawbreakers. You see since we have sinned against an infinitely holy god. We deserve an infinite punishment enter justification. This is the one-time event when god declares the lawbreaker us righteous in his court.

It's been said that to be justified means that god sees me just if i'd never send. This is more appropriately stated god sees me just if i'd been jesus. See jesus lived the life. We couldn't live and died the death.

We should have died and was resurrected on the third day. In this jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law and paid the fine for our law breaking. If we repent and believe in him god credits his righteousness to our account.

Only then are we seen just if i'd been jesus. This has been another growing moment with robert houghton. For more information visit growthproject .org. Two two two great books and one website visit strivingforeternity .org.

There are two books that I would like to recommend. You purchase what they meaning people who aren't christians other religions believe and what we believe. Systematic theology made simple both are great resources.

Especially if you plan on witnessing to somebody strivingforeternity .org.

So danny you are a conservative pastor. I I know because i've talked with you off air plenty of times. But you went to well one of the.

Most liberal schools in the country. Yeah. Yeah. How cool is that? Right? Yeah, let me. Let me it's funny again how god works these things out it to me is just amazing. Um, let me take you back a little bit.

I was in uh, the patuxent river naval air station, which was in in southern Was still is uh in southern maryland and uh, I I had a chapel at that point. That was the only time in my career I was actually assigned to a chapel and that was so As in a weird kind of way.

It was the only time my 20-year. A career in the navy where I actually kind of did the the stuff a regular pastor does. At a chapel program. We had sunday school. We had you know anything that that a normal for lack of a better word regular church would have and and I was assigned there for three years, uh preached regularly, obviously since I was the I was the guy there and uh, It was interesting.

I had always sort of made it a um a point not to check my email. I would be in my office before the service started and there's also my work office. Obviously, we're at my office at work. The chaplain was right across the street and I always try to.

I always had a very hard and fast rule that I would not look at my email before I went in. To preach because I would see something I knew I would see something in the email that would throw me off during the service and I didn't want to.

Well, I broke that this one particular time I don't know why I did and I pulled up my email and had gotten a uh an email from uh, The uh, the chief of chaplain's office and that says the chaplain that's either usually really good news or really bad news.

And so I because I had no reason for them to email me. And so I pulled it up and it said, you know, congratulations. You have been selected for the funded graduate education program. I had no idea what the funded graduate education program even was I I I did not know and so um.

The following Monday the next day I went into work, uh, I called the number on there anyway to make a more convoluted story hopefully a lot less so. Uh, I was selected. I was one of three chaplains in the entire navy chaplain corps that year that was selected for a program I didn't sign up for by the way, you usually have to submit a package.

I didn't submit a package to this day. I don't know how I got selected, uh, but got selected to attend um graduate school for a year to get another master's degree a master's of theology and I had there were several schools that the navy had contracts with to to.

For this program and one of them was was princeton theological seminary and that was the seminary. That I chose to go to uh, and it was quite an experience. So I've been it was nice. It was a good gig if you can get it, right?

I got paid my salary and. And I got paid to go to school for a year to get another master's degree and it was it was an amazing experience.

But you're right. There was a reason why I picked uh, I picked princeton. Well, first off you came to Not only a liberal school, but you came to my state then you can't get much more liberal than jersey.

California tries. Yeah, and I was there too but yeah, so.

Obviously you did not get along with your professors. I'm sure I I actually was going to do my phd. I was looking at princeton similar reasons as you did. For going to princeton. I I was thinking of doing my doctorate at princeton because of the fact that.

Especially me doing a lot of ministry on the streets when you get these Unbelievers who think oh, well, you just went to some religious school. If you say princeton it carries some weight to that. Sure with the unbelievers but the big stumbling block that I saw was I was going to have to pair up with a Professor and really be doing researching that of something they're an interest in.

And i'm like going. Yeah, I want to do. If i'm doing my doctorate it would be in like something about hypocrisy. In christianity in the bible and I don't see princeton being a place where they're going to want me to talk about hypocrisy.

Probably not. No, that would be my guess. Yeah, I will tell you I had a little bit of an ulterior motive there. One of my absolute favorite theologians in the history of the world cornelius van till. I don't know if you how much you know about van till but van till actually went to princeton seminary.

And so that was uh, It was when it was a little bit different than it is now uh, but um Yeah, I and we keep talking about the reason but neither one of us have quantified that. The reason that I decided that I wanted To go to princeton seminary is because when I went to get my undergraduate degree I went to a place that believed pretty much like me when I went and got my master of divinity at southwestern I went to a place that pretty much believed like I believe I got my phd from regent university and you know I'm a little not exactly Completely in line with those guys theologically but for the most part especially the important things I believe pretty much like like they do.

I wanted to go to a place where I was going to be challenged in my thinking. And be surrounded by people who did not think like I thought I wanted to be sharpened. I wanted to be Constantly bombarded with the thinking that um that would come from from that perspective.

And it was a great experience Andrew. I loved every second of it. I really did. I had a lot of fun. I had this one professor in particular, by the way, who we could not have been more different. I mean we could not have been more different and we actually got to be very good friends.

He encouraged me to start a blog and he said the stuff you have to say is really important and you need to You need to get that out. That was really interesting coming from him. Since we like I said, we had absolutely nothing in common theologically culturally.

Politically not nowhere. Did we meet in any way shape or form? But we had a respect for each other that superseded that and we were able to talk to each other. Without name calling and without getting into arguments without doing all that other stuff.

It was an absolutely phenomenal experience.

Yeah, and when I went to seminary, I didn't agree completely in the doctrine of soteriology with my seminary um. And it just forced me to have to write my papers a lot stronger and I loved Being a fundamentalist baptist seminary.

I had to do a paper on Ecclesiastical separation. How far do you separate from other churches and I still remember my professor saying because I was supposed to be a complete separatist as a fundamentalist baptist, right?

Right. Um, I still remember I got an a on the class got he gave me a paper where I got an a and his notes said I really don't like your conclusion, but I cannot argue against any of the points that you made.

Yeah that see that was the part that that I found so rewarding. Uh in going to and going to princeton seminary. Um, most of the kids that were there were probably young enough to be my kids pretty close to being.

Young enough to be my kids. And so I didn't care so much about their conclusions as much as I cared how they got there. And so I constantly didn't. I never almost never challenged them on their conclusions.

I always challenged them on their thinking. How did you get there. Show me basically remember when we were kids and in math class. Show your work. Show me how you got there. Because it sounds like to me you're just parroting something that somebody else says and you haven't really thought about this on your own.

What about this. Have you thought about that. And you could hear the crickets chirping most of the time. Because that's exactly even though. They were really bright kids. They were they had not been taught to think.

They'd just been taught to parent. What their professors. What their favorite writers whatever the case may be. And said without giving any sort Of thought to that what they were saying at all. And and so it was it was it was a lot of fun.

I really enjoyed it.

You know, I think I think many of those, uh Students were on my twitter feed this week when I I posted something and you're right. They're just oh, yeah.

Yeah, I saw that post. I thought you were glutton for punishment.

Well, I don't know what twitter has had like a block where I could I could put something and no one ever reads it and all of a sudden I the one post That I put that got a ton of attention was when I just said if you you know If you go to a church where you have a female pastor It's not a church and she's not a pastor and boy did that blow up and it did indeed.

Yeah, I saw that. They're all just parroting the same thing and it's like there's no verse that says that in the bible. And i'm just giving the verse it's like here first timothy 2 2 to 14. I just read it you're reading into that.

No, you're doing isagesis. Uh, all i'm doing is reading the verse. Yeah, i'm not adding anything else in yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's we we are we are. We have more access to information than we have ever had in our entire lives. And we are also stupider than we've ever been in our entire lives because we let other people do our thinking for us.

Yeah, they will make a statement they will they will they will. Some some little sound bite some little clip something that sounds kind of cool or kind of good. And then everybody gloms on to that and then they keep repeating it.

They keep parroting it without ever thinking about what I call, you know, the the top. Specifically what I call it, but it's one of the unchanging uncompromising laws of the universe the law of unintended consequences.

Second third order effects. Nobody ever thinks about that. They just spout this stuff out without ever thinking about the ramifications of what it is to hold. That particular worldview because they've never thought about it.

They just heard it. They liked the way it sounded maybe aesthetically. Uh, but there's there's nothing to it. It's it's like when joe was talking to his friends and he says your proverbs are what did he call your your?