Let's Talk Rapture. Laborers' Podcast

To the cross. Then put both arms around it. Hold to the crucified and never let him go. Come afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever. Then, with the power of God resting upon you, go forth and preach the cross.

Rob is not

Rob's been raptured.

I'm only joking. I'm only joking. I've not been raptured. But we do want to talk about the rapture tonight on Laborer's Podcast. Stick with us.

Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast. We are thankful that you are with us or listening or watching later. The comment line is open. If you would like to give us a shout out, a critique, say hello, a prayer request, whatever it may be, we'd just love to hear from you.

And as you saw at the very beginning, the Laborer's Conference is coming up this April. So go to laborersconference .com and you can register there. We'd love to see you in Newton, North Carolina. Guys, how are you doing?

Good evening and good morning to you, brother Mario.

Well, thank you. I envy your cool studios there. I have a cool studio myself, but I have no access to it two o 'clock in the morning, so I have to do it on my phone. So you have to bear with my very humble background here.

Well, we're humbled that you were able and chose to get up that early in the morning where you are to be with us tonight. I'm truly thankful.

Yeah, I appreciate the invitation. Thanks.

I'm doing good. I'm doing good.

I'm sorry. I heard like overlapping voices. Did you ask me and Troy how we're doing?

I did.

I'm sorry. I did not. I'm doing well. Thank you.

Well, we're thankful to be here together tonight. I appreciate all my brothers. And like I said, tonight we're going to talk about the rapture. And I want to preface this because we had a conversation when I brought up this topic and I generated the questions.

There was some concern amongst some of the guys in our group, and it was a good concern because we strive to seek true biblical unity. I think there are some folks and hopefully the laborers, the Truth and Love Network, the guys in the network, we can begin to maybe produce some videos on true biblical unity.

But I think there may be some misconceptions on what unity may look like. But we want to strive for that. And we want to be respectful and we want to speak truth. We want to speak truth and love and show grace.

So we want to have the proper balance in that conversation. But when it comes to the conversation of the rapture, there are some of us who do not believe in a secret pre-tribulation rapture. There are different takes on the rapture.

But we do not want to come across, for those of us who do not believe in a pre-trib secret rapture from a dispensationalist point of view, we do not want to come across as disrespectful to those who are maybe dispensational theologians who hold to a pre-trib rapture.

We want to be respectful to you guys. There are many great theologians, even in our day, who hold to that view. So we appreciate all their work and their ministry and what the Lord is doing through them.

So we want to just have a conversation on the rapture tonight and see where that leads us. I'll go ahead and start with the first question. These questions, as I told the guys, they read as if they are coming more from the dispensational secret pre-trib rapture view, asking a partial preterist to maybe defend their position.

And I think that's good because the dispensational pre-trib rapture view is probably the most popular and has been for a good while now. But the first question that I want to tackle is, in 1 Thessalonians 4, 16 and 17, which is probably the most popular passage for the rapture, describes believers who are being called up, in the Greek word there is harpazo, to meet the Lord in the air.

How do you interpret this passage if it's not a rapture event? Or if it is not the pre-tribulation rapture? Maybe you could just explain how you interpret 1 Thessalonians 4.

You want me to go first?

Sure. Okay.

So I think we have to clarify that technically we all agree that there is a rapture, or at least I think we all agree that there is a rapture, but not in the way that most Christians would say the rapture is going to take place.

Like most people, because like you were saying, dispensationalism is the predominant view, would say that when we talk about a rapture, what's going to happen is that Jesus is going to come down and rapture the church, take them up to heaven, and basically just rescue them out of here.

Because the tribulation is coming. It's going to be seven years of tribulation. Everything is going to go terribly to the earth for the next seven years. And so Jesus is just saying, hey, let me get my people out of here before this begins.

If we were just talking about being caught up in the air, I think everybody agrees on the rapture. If you just say, well, those who believe in Christ will be caught up in the air. But the reason why he's going to be caught up in the air, or we are going to be caught up in the air, from our perspective, I think everybody's perspective here, as far as I can tell, we were missing one or two, at least more laborers to kind of give us a little bit of pushback, I think.

But most of us here, not all of us here would say, well, yes, because at the second coming of Christ, we will be caught up into the air to meet our coming king, as a triumphant king coming to make all things new.

And what's not going to happen is we're not going to then go up to heaven with him. So does that kind of help set up the conversation, Rob?

Absolutely. And Troy, I know you've changed from where you started. And I think you're currently, are you Amil?

I am.

You're Amil. And then Mario, I'm not sure. We haven't had the time to have a conversation about your eschatology yet.

I'm a post-millennial.

OK.

All right.

Hermeneutics and the Dispensational Framework

But maybe it is helpful to, at the start, clarify what setting at all makes a pre-tribunational rapture. What is the reason why people take it that way? Do you want to maybe talk about that a little?

Absolutely. Go right ahead.

Sure.

Because when we talk about hermeneutics and how this particular passage you quoted is to be understood, there is a set of beliefs which are used to exegete this passage by the people who have a dispensational understanding of a rapture in the sense that people are taken away from the earth and the earth keeps spinning and things on earth keep happening.

Because if we talk about the rapture and the differences between the view we are presenting here and the popular view is that you have a rapture in which clothes are falling down, people are wondering where all the raptured Christians went, and the history of the earth is, in my understanding, if that is correct, continuing for another seven years.

So that is the view which we are talking about, right? So that there is this disappearing of Christians, the world is still spinning, and we would oppose that and say that the rapture is an event that happens at the last coming of Christ in the sense that the church is taken up in the air to meet him there to be kind of a greeting committee, which that Greek word also indicates, like Che pointed out, and that the history of the world is done at the moment of the rapture because Christ has come to make his last but major judgment.

So why do people take passages of scripture like the one you named or like 1 Corinthians 15 as a disappearing of Christians before the world history ends? Maybe we could put it that way. And basically the reason for that, why anyone in church history started to interpret it that way, which is a quite new understanding, is because of dispensationalism.

The only reason why Christians felt the urge to understand it that way is because God needs to make way for his plan A to return, which is, of course, the Israel according to the flesh. So this big framework, this big idea that God has his plan A, Israel, but they reject Christ, so he goes to plan B and gets the church.

And since the church project is done, he raptures the church and gets back to plan A. That is basically the whole framework in which people started to understand these passages as a secret rapture before the coming of Christ.

So maybe that is helpful to understand the bigger picture of why people felt the urge to interpret passages such as 1 Corinthians 15 or the one in Thessalonians in the way they do. So if we want to understand scripture, of course, we need to interpret passages which talk about one and the same subject together, right?

Because scripture gives us much light and sometimes bits of light are found in different places. And if they are talking about the same topic because they were all given by one God, we can take them together and get a bigger picture.

And I think that is what needs to be done in order to understand what the rapture even is.

Absolutely.

And also, by the way, one of the most hilarious jokes I have ever heard of was done on the topic of the rapture. Because John MacArthur once told that he was in Bible school and there were students which were afraid of the rapture that it would happen and they would be missed and then they would be left on earth.

So they got themselves some trumpets and some big old metal plates and they shook it like thunder and blew the trumpet and laid a cloth on their tables. So all the younglings thought that their rapture happened and I found it really hilarious that someone would put off such a hilarious prank.

Is that on video?

Yeah. No, no. But John MacArthur told the story from his seminary days.

Dang it. I would have loved to have seen that on video.

Yeah, exactly.

Also, that was his seminary days. For some reason, I thought you were saying that it happened at his seminary.

No, no, no. When he was still at seminary.

Oh, they didn't have video back then.

Yeah.

Did they even have cars?

I think so.

John MacArthur has been a blessing for a long time. He is one of the theologians that would hold to dispensational pre-tribulation rapture, but is so good. Actually, our church uses his guidebooks for Sunday school and just good stuff.

There is that occasional like, oh, he went full dispensational with that. That is interesting, but good man, good man. You hit it right on the head, Brother Mario. You have to understand the hermeneutics of how someone gets to these types of beliefs, right?

The Timeline of Redemptive History and Eschatological Frameworks

And so whenever we talk about eschatology in any form or fashion, whether you're postmill or all mill or premill or dispensationalist, any of these things, what we are essentially doing is drawing a timeline of redemptive history.

And we are charting verses on that to certain time points, regardless of how we do it. We had personal conversation. When was it? It was this past week on our personal messenger. And it was about where do we put Isaiah two on the timeline of redemptive history?

And so you're going to have disagreements. And this is one of the things where where they put this on the timeline is before a before the book of Revelation really kicks off. Right. Right about Revelation six.

And then they would see all of these things in Revelation happening and then the final coming. And the reason why they would see it that way is really due to we're in first Thessalonians for 16 through something.

But in first Thessalonians five, 10. Right. So the same context says God has not appointed us to the wrath to come. And so they read all the all the scary things that happen in Revelation.

And I think you're getting ready to jump onto this question.

Oh, get him to say something. What earthly reason would there be for the true church to go through a seven year tribulationary period? OK, so the the way that we would read a tribulation period would not see it as a most of us would not see it as a seven year period.

But yet Revelation would be teaching recapitulation. And so you're seeing the judgment and Christ return. Right. You see the Christ returns in chapter six, chapter 13. Don't quote me on those specifically.

I didn't really make an outline for that. But yet this is the reason that they would see this. And so. As we read and compare these with other very didactic, clear text. Think mainly just what comes to my head is first Corinthians 15.

And I'll read it here. First Corinthians 15 verses 23. It says, but every man in his own order, Christ, the first fruit. Afterwards, they are they that are Christ at his coming. Then comes the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom of God to God.

Even the father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. And so just as we come to the scriptures, answering Andy here, reading that, I would put first Thessalonians for that coming of Christ and our gathering with him to the clouds with first Corinthians 15.

Or it says Christ comes and then they that are Christ, the gathering of his saints to him. Then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God. So we would go straight into the consummation of all things, right?

We would go to what you would call the great white throne judgment.

This is also consistent with John, right? When Jesus says that he will raise his own up on the last day. So when we want to when we want to talk about rapture. That really is the questions which need to be tackled.

Does God have a plan A church and a plan B church? Plan A church being Israel and plan B church being the church. Do these different groups exist? Because if it doesn't, if that is not the way in which God intends to save, in this two different kinds of ways, there is no reason whatsoever to believe in a rapture in a dispensational sense.

That Christians will disappear before the world history ends. So I think that is where the rubber meets the road, where things need to be discussed. Because if God intended to let Christ be neglected by the physical Israel.

And therefore gather his true Israel out of Jews and Gentiles to himself. And if God has not the plan to, well, rapture the church and go back to Judaism. And save people there by building up a third temple.

All the reasons to understand passages to be a pre-tribulational rapture. Sorry, it's two o 'clock in the morning. I can't say that word. Pre-trib, I just say trip, pre-trib rapture is obsolete. There's no more reason to view it that way.

Would you agree that this is the only reason why people started to interpret this passage as the church being taken away from the earth before world history ends?

Yeah, if you see Israel and the church as two separate entities. Then yes, you have to come up with a system to protect that interpretation of scripture.

So that is, if that was true, I would interpret the passages which are interpreted as a pre-trib rapture like that as well. But if this presupposition is false, every reason to interpret it that way is false also.

Right, right. And I would say the consistent look at the New Testament is telling us, look back at Abraham and those who are in Christ, who believe in Christ, they're children of Abraham. There's one faith, one baptism, there's one way to heaven, and that's through the Messiah.

Whether faith looking forward or faith looking back into Christ. And we're all one in him, past, present, and future. And I think that's a good take on that. And I do want to reiterate for those who didn't hear at the beginning, who are with us now, that we do respect our pastors and theologians who are dispensational pre-trib rapture believers.

And even in our group, we come from different eschatological backgrounds. So we are just here speaking, and we can only speak for, those of us who are here live, we can only speak for our interpretation of scripture.

We don't speak for every person in the Truth and Love Network. I want to make that clear as well. Did somebody, oh no, what do we have here?

Peek-a-boo, Claude.

Look at that, he was going to do two of them at the same time, same night too.

Absolutely. Have you had your ice cream yet?

Yes, I just finished it a few minutes ago. There was a slight panic. I thought I was out. I've not had ice cream in three nights. April and I had a discussion. She told me there was more buried in the freezer.

And once again, my wife was right.

See, April come through.

Like always, a good wife.

Daniel's Seventy Weeks

He is being so kind to ask us questions. Let's tackle his next question. What are we going to do with Daniel 9, 24 through 27? And this goes to the 70 weeks.

Yes, the 70 weeks of Daniel.

Let's pull it up.

With three question marks. So that is a really important question.

Yes. So if you do Daniel's 70 weeks, and they're weeks of years. These are seven-year weeks. You do the math, that works out to 490 years. At the end of Daniel 9, what you do have is a cease of the Old Testament.

The Old Testament sacrificial system where he puts an end to sin. He puts an end to sin, and it's from the decree up to. It's from the decree of Cyrus up to. Well, when was our sin ended? 490 years. We're going to land at Jesus.

We're going to land at who put an end to the sin who made that atonement is Christ. And so we would see Daniel, or at least I would. I can only speak for myself. I would see Daniel's 70th week ending at Jesus Christ.

And your second question about Revelation 20 verses 1 through 10. The section on the millennium. We would see that for the millennial kingdom that's going on today. And a verse that comes to my mind right off the rip.

Because we're talking about the binding off of Satan until he returns for his season that he has. And so I would quote John 1231 as Jesus is in the is. He's predicting his death, walking with the apostles.

And he says, Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. You know, we know that that the prince of this world was was the devil. Right. And Jesus crushed him at the cross, making an atonement for sin, conquering over death in the grave.

And that that all is ultimately fulfilled in what Christ accomplished. Not in going back to reinstate animal sacrifices or or anything like that. We would see all of that fulfilled in the life, ministry and work of Jesus Christ.

Does anyone else have anything else to add to that?

That's good. I think Hebrews makes that abundantly clear that there is no more animal sacrifices to come. I do think that we are in the kingdom right now in the the thousand years that Revelation speaks of.

Luke 17, 2021 says being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them. The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, look, here it is or there.

For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. And so I would say and I think everybody here would say that we are currently in the kingdom. Jesus has inaugurated his kingdom and his kingdom is growing.

Right. Because as we preach the gospel, as we bring more people into the church, we see Christ growing his kingdom. Now, we might have some differences on how the finer details of the implications of all that.

But I think all of us here would agree with what the scripture says there that the kingdom of God came with Christ. And I just want to say one thing. I agree with Andy. There is no such thing as replacement theology.

I think that there is adoption theology. Some people might call it fulfillment theology. I think I would call it adoption theology because we have been adopted into the family of God. And those who truly love God, who have trusted in Christ, are the family of God.

And so, yeah, you're absolutely correct, Andy. There is no such thing as replacement theology. So hopefully that addressed everything.

Examining the Tribulation Timeline

I wish I could get my mouse to work correctly tonight. I even changed the batteries. So I would start at this first question for me personally. And I'll try to touch on some things that maybe you guys from a different perspective.

So I can speak for when I was growing up. And I don't know that I really believed or bought it hook, line, and sinker. But the only thing that I was taught, so therefore the only thing that I knew was the...

I didn't even know what it was called, dispensational theology, the preacher rapture. But, you know, that's what I grew up believing because that's the only thing that I was taught. But when I began to say it for myself, one of the things that is taught is just what is asked in this question.

Why would the true church go through a seven-year tribulation? So that's what I was taught. There's going to be a seven-year tribulation. So when I begin to study things for myself and then go into the next question, what happens in Daniel chapter nine, you see that there's not a seven-year tribulation.

There's a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. So I'm asking myself, well, I was taught that there's a seven-year tribulation. But Scripture is saying there's a three-and-a-half-year tribulation.

So if what I'm being taught, the system that I'm being taught is not teaching me accurately from Scripture, I need to dig further and try to figure out what is Scripture saying as opposed to what the system is telling me.

And so when you look at Daniel chapter nine, like the guys have already talked about, you don't see a gap in the text. The gap has been inserted because of the system. There has to be a gap there so that it fits and protects the system.

And then as Troy was talking about, he was talking about the one who made an end to sin. And the one who made an end to sin, as Daniel talks about, is the one who made the covenant. It's not the Antichrist or the devil.

The one who made the covenant was Christ. And he put an end to sin at the three-and-a-half years. So we don't see a gap. And if you don't put a gap in there and you follow the timeline, just like Troy mentioned, and you count up the years, you take Scripture literally according to the text, according to the literature, you come up to the time of Christ.

And then you have the three-and-a-half years. Then you have his defeating of sin, making covenant. And that's how I read Scripture, put it together. And then that's exactly—we go from there. And look at what John tells us in Revelation, which is the only place that speaks of a millennial kingdom.

But, you know, Jesus is sitting on the throne of authority. He's sitting on that throne of David, which represents the throne of authority. He's sitting there now. Scripture tells us that he ascended and is sitting on the throne where he reigns as king of kings and lord of lords.

And it says his kingdom shall have no end. So he has taken his seat as king, and his kingdom will have no end. And I would totally agree with the guys here. We don't believe in replacement theology. That, as I stated before, we're all Abraham's children.

There's only been, you know, one faith. And he has inserted another question. And one of you other guys can—.

It's not really a question. It's more like a yelling at us at this point.

Oh, okay.

So, no, the 69th week was Jesus' death on the cross. The 70th week is yet to come. We are now in the church age that will end in a premature rapture.

The Cohesive Vision of Daniel's Prophecy

Daniel 2 contradicts that because Daniel is seeing the same thing over and over again. And it is important to understand Daniel, that Daniel is basically seeing one and the same thing over and over again in more detail.

So Daniel 2 says that in the days of these kings, the God of heaven will bring the kingdom of heaven to Earth. And Daniel basically, in Daniel 2, is giving these outlooks of the four empires to come. One is Babylon.

There is another one to come in which we read of in the scriptures. When the Persians take over, then the Greeks come. And they take this world power over. And then the Romans come. And in the days of these kings, the fourth kingdom, God will institute the kingdom of heaven on Earth.

And that is where the scope goes away from the Earth. Because Daniel 7 .13 talks about where the son of man is coming on the clouds and being made by the ancient of days king over everything. And there is a theme in Daniel concerning kingship.

It's very interesting if you read Daniel 4, Nebuchadnezzar, when he realizes what kind of king Yahweh is. So if you want to pause and go to Daniel 4 and read this section, that is vitally important to understand.

This kind of kingdom is Yahweh's kingdom. A supreme kingdom over everything. He is ruler over all. And he is giving that kingdom in Daniel 7 to the son of man. And so in multiple sections of scripture, Christ claims that he has fulfilled that happening.

That this kingdom has been given to him. For example, Matthew 26, when he is talking to the Jewish elites, he says, you will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, sitting to the right hand of power.

So he is claiming to have fulfilled Daniel 7 .13 and Psalm 110 .1, which basically is talking about the same thing. And also Matthew 28, all the power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. So he has taken this kind of throne from Daniel 13.

So you can't isolate Daniel chapter 9 to make a crack where there is no crack. It is meant to be understood in the context of the whole book. The one, the same vision is seen over and over again. And Daniel makes clear that in the days of these kings of the fourth empire, Christ would come and would set up his kingdom.

And that, of course, is after Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, the Romans. And in the days of this Roman empire, Christ had set up his kingdom. So there is consistency in the New Testament about this topic as well.

And that is basically flowing natural from this topic of scripture, I would say.

I'm so glad that you pointed those things out because it is terribly important that we hear what the text actually says.

I'm sorry. Also, I would give Andy the advice to go and get Doug Wilson's commentary on the Revelation or anyone else.

When a man comes around?

When a man comes around, it is an excellent resource. And what I have to admit sometimes when people like Andy would ask me particular questions, for example, okay, when did this or that exactly happen?

Like when did the king of the Romans do miracles and deceive people? And I have to honestly say, I don't know. But overall, the framework in which the book of Revelation is meant to be understood is quite clear, even though I cannot execute every single detail.

Because people who lived through that destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70, they might have known. But some things are just lost in history. But the overall framework is very clear in which the book of Revelation is to be understood.

That it is to be understood as something where Christ is reigning and making his first move as a ruler to destroy what he has said that he would destroy, namely apostate Judaism and all its structures.

Sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, I was just going to say, I appreciate you saying what you said, because hearing what Scripture says is so important when it says in the days of these kings. So you have to remember that it says in these kings.

And then when you come to Matthew, when Jesus is telling them, you will see me coming. And then he says in Matthew 24, when you see these things, it's so important to hear the text and what it says.

Yeah, to follow the theme through Scriptures, because there are some themes which are meant to be taken up by the reader. You just can't, like Jeff Durbin once said, you can't come into Star Wars the last five minutes and interpret everything from the last five minutes you witnessed.

You need to watch the whole thing in order to understand the last five minutes. It's the same thing with the Scriptures.

Another good book would be The Triumph of the Lamb. It's a commentary on Revelation. Dennis Johnson, very good book. Helpful on that. So, guys, I came in super late. I was watching it. I was going to try to just go to sleep, but I was watching you all, listening to you all.

So tell me what I'm missing here and how I can contribute, Rob.

Well, you can jump on this next one. We're trying to be respectful to Brother Andy and address his questions from our perspective. Like I mentioned, we're respectful and really love our dispensational brothers and theologians and pastors.

We appreciate them. And not everyone in our network believes exactly the same on eschatology. So we're just kind of giving things from our perspective for the best of our ability. And we want to be respectful to him who's taking the time to ask these questions.

This was his next one. First three and a half years, we'll see the seven-year treaty by the Antichrist. He will break it at midpoint, three and a half years. So how would you respond to that?

Hey, before Claude, I'm sorry, Claude. Can I just say one quick thing?

Jump in on this. I'll get to a couple of ones before.

No, you're going to answer this that Rob is asking, but I just want to say one quick thing. So Andy, I said earlier, well, he's more like yelling at us, right, because he's put all the exclamation marks.

And so he clarified. He's like, no, I'm not yelling at you. I've been a pastor and preacher for 50 years, and eschatology has been my priority. So I've enjoyed this. And I respect that passion. So I apologize if I misunderstood what you were doing with the multiple exclamation marks.

But I appreciate you listening in, and I definitely understand. Brother, even if we disagree, trust me, I've gotten into those conversations. I appreciate the passion. I have been there. So apologies on the misunderstanding.