A Conversation on the Regulative Principle of Worship

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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April 22, 2022

00:00: Today, we're going to talk about a subject that literally nobody ever has an opinion about worship music conversations with the Calvinist begins right now.
00:28: Welcome back to conversations with the Calvinist.
00:30: My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I am joined today by my friend and fellow minister, Jake Korn.
00:39: And I want to give a short introduction to Jake for those of you who don't know who he is.
00:43: Jake was born and raised in Las Vegas, Nevada, Nevada.
00:48: He attended college for performing arts at Southern Utah university.
00:52: He graduated in 2006 and he began leading music ministry at sought out church in Cedar city, Utah in 2003.
01:00: And he's led and participated in worship since then consistently.
01:04: He enlisted in the army.
01:06: Actually it says here to pay for seminary in 2007 as a human intelligence collector.
01:12: He was deployed to Iraq in 2008 and 2010 and 11.
01:16: He was commissioned as a chaplain candidate in 2013.
01:19: And he began seminary at Gordon Conwell theological seminary in 2013 in Jacksonville, Florida.
01:25: He began work at Switzerland community church in 2014 as a youth pastor.
01:29: Then as an executive pastor in 2016, he became an army reserve chaplain in 2017 and he became active duty army chaplain in 2020 and he's currently serving with the third infantry division deployed to South Korea and Germany.
01:45: His wife is Jennifer.
01:46: His children are Lydia age eight and Ezra age two, and his interests are video games podcast, which is great.
01:52: Cause he's on one and music, Jake, it is great to have you on the show today, my friend.
01:57: Hey, thanks for having me.
01:59: Uh, just for beginning caveat, I want to let everyone know.
02:01: I also am a Calvinist.
02:03: Yes, absolutely.
02:04: And I'm grateful because not everybody on the show.
02:06: In fact, our mutual friend is Matthew Henson, who those who are, uh, who watched the show often know Matthew's been on the show probably eight or 10 times, and we always call him our not yet Calvinist friend.
02:20: Oh yeah.
02:20: He was elected in, in predestined times.
02:23: It just hasn't come to fruition yet.
02:24: That's right.
02:25: And, and, and to prove your Calvinistic, uh, uh, status, I'm wearing my five point Calvinist t-shirt, which you own, but you weren't even cooler shirt.
02:34: If you'll show the audience your shirt, you say I didn't choose the thug life.
02:38: And this is Calvin and glasses.
02:39: The thug life chose me unconditionally.
02:42: So that's right.
02:43: Awesome.
02:44: Awesome.
02:45: Well, Jake, I'm thankful for you to be on the program today.
02:47: And over the, over the course of time that we've known each other, we've had several conversations online and we've talked back and forth about the subject of worship and particularly worship music, and there have been times where we've kind of gone back and forth and maybe had a few times where we didn't always agree, but I thought that would be a good topic for us to address today because you have been leading worship and worship music for longer than I've been a pastor and I've been the pastor at this church since 2006.
03:17: But you've been leading worship since 2003, according to what we just read a little while ago.
03:24: And, um, that to me is, first of all, that's awesome that you've been doing it this long.
03:29: And, uh, what, what is it that drove you into that? Well, let me ask you this first.
03:34: When did you get, when did you get saved? And then how did the Lord begin to move you in that area? So those are related questions, actually.
03:41: So I, you know, I grew up in the church around the church, but I did not fully repent and recognize the Lordship of Jesus Christ until college.
03:51: Um, so I went to college, had my fall away freshman year, um, but was brought to this church, this sought out church by a pretty girl, uh, in my first week there.
04:02: I'm sitting in the audience and it's a tiny church.
04:06: So this is small town, Utah.
04:07: And if you're not Mormon or you're not a mainline denomination, there was one church.
04:12: So there's about 25 people attending this church and they made an announcement saying, Hey guys, uh, our guitarist is moving.
04:21: So if you want any music next week, we have to pray.
04:26: And I was sitting there going, well, I mean, I, you know, I learned how to play guitar last year.
04:30: I might as well.
04:31: So I jumped up.
04:32: I'm like, Hey, I can play some music.
04:35: Uh, you know, I'm comfortable on stage.
04:36: I've never done worship leading before, but I'll go for it.
04:40: Um, I did that for about three months until there was a sermon preached about just the, just a great gospel sermon that just struck me to my core.
04:51: And here I am playing worship music and realizing, wow, I am a total hypocrite.
04:55: I have not lived owned, uh, completely submitted to the Lordship of Christ.
05:01: And I'm leading worship at his church.
05:02: Like that is scary.
05:03: Like better a millstone be tied around my neck than that be true.
05:07: Uh, and I was crushed and then restored and it was all glorious.
05:12: So, so really I was a worship leader before I was in my opinion, truly Christian.
05:17: Oh, awesome.
05:17: And that's interesting.
05:19: I, I've, I have a friend who is also a worship leader here in town and he's at a, at another church.
05:26: And he told me a very similar story.
05:28: He was actually in an orchestra in a church where he was a trumpet player in this massive church with a massive orchestra.
05:36: And, and during a sermon, he gets saved.
05:39: It's interesting to know that sometimes the people on the chance or in the pit are not believers and not yet, uh, bowed the knee to Christ.
05:47: And that same thing happened to him.
05:49: He was there because of his talent, but, uh, he was also there by the appointment of God to hear the gospel.
05:54: And yeah, that has stayed with me forever.
05:57: And there's not a single room I walk into where I assume that the person has come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
06:05: It doesn't matter.
06:06: It doesn't matter if they're elders.
06:08: It doesn't matter if they're a missionary for 30 years.
06:11: You just never know the human flesh's ability to be a hypocrite is pretty amazing.
06:17: Um, and Christ's ability to, to bring out the truth is even more amazing.
06:21: So I just never take that for granted.
06:23: Amen.
06:24: Amen.
06:25: Well, one of the, the, the things that I know when I used to see, because you and I met, you were at Switzerland and you actually, we met through James white, we met through the debate that you hosted at the church where it was the debate over homosexuality and you and I, I think the first time we met was at Gordon when him and Mike Brown were doing Michael Brown, we're doing their discussion and we had a little conversation and then, uh, you know, began to talk back and forth.
06:53: You, you, you got one of my shirts, which is by the way, this is a Keith Foskey original.
06:58: Uh, I wish you made more of those man.
06:59: Cause mine's got a hole in it.
07:00: Yeah.
07:01: I gotta, I gotta get my, uh, my screen back out and print a few more, but the, um, we became friends on Facebook and I began to see your, your, the worship center, like, obviously I was there for the debate, but I began to see more of how you guys utilize the space.
07:17: And it's a really neat looking space.
07:18: I like the way that the lights are set up.
07:20: I like the way that you guys did that.
07:21: And I noticed you playing harmonica one time.
07:25: That was, there was a lady singing, you were playing harmonica.
07:28: And I was like, this guy's pretty talented.
07:30: Cause you know, you weren't up there just strumming one or two notes on it.
07:33: Like me, when I play guitar, it's, it's a three chord, uh, you know, maybe four, if I'm really, you know, pushing my limits, but you were up there really, really jamming out.
07:43: Well, thank you for saying so.
07:45: Uh, the harmonica is just something I picked up along the way in the army.
07:47: It's, it's the easiest instrument in the world to play, but the hardest to master.
07:51: And I'm nowhere near master.
07:53: Gotcha.
07:53: Gotcha.
07:53: Now, do you also lead worship now that you are full-time in the military? And I know you're a chaplain.
08:00: Are you leading worship in those services? And it, does it look similar or is it more high church or what, what does it look like what you're doing? That's a great question.
08:07: Yeah.
08:07: So, uh, I serve at a chapel service.
08:10: They call it chapel next.
08:11: So it's essentially our contemporary service on post.
08:15: There are more chaplains than probably are necessary, but we all need to kind of fit in.
08:19: So I'm on a rotation with the team and, um, I'll preach one week and then maybe next week I'll do announcements and then, you know, next week I'll, I'll lead worship, but, uh, leading music will always be a part of my life for sure.
08:31: Gotcha.
08:31: Now I have a interesting side question because as I mentioned to you before the show, my son is in the military.
08:37: When we went to his bootcamp graduation, we, we went to worship that weekend at that, I think it's that service.
08:44: It was the, it was pretty much the evangelical services.
08:47: There was a Roman Catholic service.
08:48: And then there was sort of like a evangelical sort of mix.
08:52: It wasn't any one particular denomination and it was fine.
08:56: I mean, the guy who preached, I think, did a good job, but one of the things that he did do was he put out a call for new baptisms, like if you have come to the Lord, you know, do, and you feel like you need to be baptized.
09:07: Now, of course, this is in, this is at bootcamp.
09:10: This is the, the air force bootcamp.
09:11: So these are all new people.
09:13: You're probably not dealing with an influx of new people all the time.
09:17: Are you, or are you? No, not really.
09:19: I mean, we'll get people for two or three years at a time and then they rotate out, but not like basic training.
09:23: So do you have that same thing though, where you're constantly seeing new believers come in or how does that work? Not as much at basic training because you know, the emotions are just so high there and, and, you know, frankly, I think that the, the folks there tend to cling to religion like they never have before because they're stressed and desperate.
09:44: So by the time they get to their main unit, like where I would be they've already matured a little bit, not to say we don't get new believers, but it's, it's rare you know, that's a whole different theological point about baptisms at a chapel if you want to discuss that, but yeah, well, no, no, I know we're going to talk about worship music, but it just came to my mind.
10:05: And I'll come back for that session.
10:07: Well, I did think though, you know, I said, I wonder if this is an emotional appeal because these guys, these guys are in a situation where they are, you know, they've just had their whole lives turned upside down for eight weeks, you know? So for sure.
10:20: I'm, I'm very cynical about this, but when I went to basic training, they said to us towards the end, Hey, we'll take you to this farm where you guys can have fun for a day.
10:29: There'll be soda and swimming pool.
10:32: And, you know, but, but the deal is if you want to go, you have to sit through a sermon and we're like, yeah, of course, of course I want to go.
10:38: Yes.
10:39: Uh, you know, and, and I, I mean, I'd been pretty well established in my faith by that time, but I'm like, Hey, I want the day off.
10:45: I'll sit through a sermon, whatever.
10:46: And, you know, this was in Missouri and they take us into the backwoods to this, you know, local Baptist church that made this big facility where they offer this.
10:57: And the sermon was the most manipulative fear mongering, just, you know what I'm talking about? Like that, that pure Arminian, I have to convince you to choose salvation.
11:09: So it was that whole, you know, there was a little girl named Sally who heard a sermon and she wanted to believe in Jesus, but she said, man, maybe I'll do it tomorrow.
11:18: And then on the drive home, she died in a car crash.
11:21: Do you want to be like Sally and go to hell? No.
11:23: And, and of course, you know, I don't need to laugh.
11:27: I should be crying, but that's real.
11:29: Right.
11:29: Right.
11:29: Which has always been my main contention, why theology and, and, and Calvinist soteriology matters because on the far end of that Arminian spectrum is the idea that I will convince you no matter what, because soul winning is the most important thing we can do.
11:44: And so tons of people raised their hand, walked the aisle, shook the hand, got a Bible with their name printed in it.
11:50: And now what? Right.
11:51: This is the classic Paul Washer.
11:53: You've got false assurance forever.
11:56: Um, so like I have a huge issue with that.
12:00: Um, I'll just say my, my quick thing on chapels and then we can move on.
12:04: My opinion, theologically chapels are not churches.
12:07: They cannot be churches.
12:08: I don't have spiritual authority as an elder, right.
12:12: To, to make those kinds of determinations.
12:15: Um, I chapel is great.
12:17: If you're deployed, if you're on a cruise ship, if you're stuck in a hospital, like while you're waiting between places, right.
12:23: To, to be with believers and hear the word, but, but there's, we have no authority to say this is this, and that is that according to the word of God.
12:31: Um, so I tell people like, if you're home, like here in Savannah, Georgia, I love you.
12:36: You need to go to a church.
12:37: You need to have a, have a, have the authority of an elder, uh, or elder board or whatever it is, you know, to your distinctive, in my opinion, to be a plurality of elders, you need to have that.
12:48: Um, but that's just, I mean, I don't think it's not pertinent to our discussion because these are still elements of worship, right.
12:55: When is baptism appropriate and how, and when does the church administer them? Should we administer baptism to strangers, essential strangers, because we preach a good sermon? Well, I don't know.
13:04: I mean, it happens in the Bible, but yeah.
13:08: So anyway, yeah, that, that, that actually does.
13:10: And again, what could shoot us off to another podcast maybe, but the, the question of when, when should little Johnny be baptized, you know, that's the, you know, when should this person, you know, Philip met the eunuch and then baptized him immediately.
13:23: And so, and yet, um, there does seem to be some wisdom in such as what we see in the dedicate, which is early Christian writing, I'm sure you're familiar with it, but the audience may not be.
13:33: It's a, it's an early writing that is attributed to, uh, the early church.
13:37: And it said that before someone was baptized, there was a time of, of, of a period where they would go through fasting and prayer and, and, and the church would fast alongside them.
13:48: Well, you know, how many churches today? I mean, as soon as you say, I believe they're dunking you, you know, or they're sprinkling you depending on which depending on where you are.
13:57: So, yeah, I, I can see that.
13:59: And it's certainly something, uh, a longer conversation can be had, but this is go back to the issue at hand.
14:05: And the issue that I really wanted to bring up is the issue of what we would call the regulative principle of worship.
14:14: And this does not, as you said, does not only affect music, but it affects how we administer the ordinances, how we even function in regard to the preaching of the word and the prayers and everything else, um, years ago, I said something about the regulative principle of worship, and you said, uh, you had a little bit of a different take on that particular doctrine.
14:39: And so what I'd like to do is I want to sort of explain what I think it is based upon my understanding.
14:46: And then I want you to tell me where you think you may disagree with what I'm saying or where you would take issue with, with the doctrine as a whole.
14:54: Does that sound good? Does that sound good? Okay.
14:56: All right.
14:56: So when we talk about the regulative principle, what that means, as far as I understand it, and, and I, I would hope that I'm correct about this because I've thought on it is that the, the, the regulative principle says that the, the worship that is done within the church or, and by that we don't mean within the walls, but among the people of God is to be regulated by scripture in such a way that the, that the elements that we include in worship are to be commanded by the scripture and rather than, um, the, the opposite position, which would say that we can do anything that's not forbidden, rather than saying we can do anything that's not forbidden.
15:39: The regulative principle would say that the only things we can do are the things that are commanded and the elements that are commanded, according to most that hold to the regulative principle would say they're the commands of scripture are that we preach the word that we offer up prayers to God, uh, and that we receive the, the, the ordinances.
16:02: Now we can extend that out and say, we are commanded also to sing.
16:06: We are commanded also to give.
16:08: And so there are other areas that would also fall within the regulative principle, but that anything outside of this, such as interpretive dance or, um, a puppet show or something like that would, would not, would not fall within the regulative principle and therefore would not be suitable for Christian worship.
16:27: That's not to say it couldn't happen within the church at another time, you know, but that within the worship that, that only what's done in worship is, is, is those things that are commanded in scripture.
16:38: Do you think that I'm giving a proper definition of that? For sure.
16:42: Yeah.
16:42: That's, that's definitely the big overall picture.
16:45: Okay.
16:45: And, and, and I know that the, um, most of the guys that I, that I spend time with that are 1689 adherence.
16:54: I'm not a 1689 guy.
16:56: I'm a 1646 guy.
16:57: And that's again, conversation for another day.
16:59: But most of the guys that I know that hold to that would say that they hold to the regulative principle.
17:05: So I know that you have in the past, you've said you, you, you are, are you a 1689 guy would you, yes.
17:12: Okay.
17:12: Yes, I am.
17:13: But you would take some issue with the regulative principle or what were your thoughts? Oh, wow.
17:18: I think that it, okay.
17:21: Let me, can I back up a little bit? Is that all right? Yeah, please, please.
17:25: So, so to give some, some history for the audience on the regular principle, we have to understand that it arose from the excesses of Rome.
17:33: And as the reformers came together and said, okay, well then how do we do what we're doing? You know, once Luther opened the gates and, and other people, other voices could come in the, the, as we started to look at how does worship occur now outside of the mass and, you know, all of the systems of Rome, the regulative principle became the guide for, well, what do we do? Right.
17:57: We no longer are going to use Roman tradition.
18:00: What can be our sole ruler, right? And so the regulative principle came out of that.
18:06: So Calvin was an adherent, all of the iconoclasm of the early reformation, right? The tearing down of images, the destruction of images, you know, the, the bringing back what, what most reform people think the second commandment means, all of that is the regulative principle.
18:21: So that is, it's it's Genesis, if you will.
18:25: The Puritans picked it up and changed it a little bit.
18:29: And that's when you start to see the idea, well, maybe we need to lose instruments and maybe we need to be exclusive Psalm singers.
18:36: Right.
18:36: And I think that the doctrine of regulative principle has grown over time from its original intended purpose, which is to get us away from the excesses of Roman man's tradition.
18:47: So I agree with almost everything that, how you stated it, almost everything.
18:53: The one place that I would cut a finer knife in the nuance is this.
18:57: You said that we should decide and most regular principle adherence will say this, we should decide that the elements of worship and we'll define that should be decided only by what is commanded in scripture, as opposed to do whatever you want to do.
19:13: Right.
19:14: And those are kind of the two poles.
19:16: I think most things in the Christian walk actually aren't this pole or that pole.
19:21: It's there's two ditches on the side of the road, walk the narrow middle way.
19:25: For example, legalism, antinomialism, right? Like you really don't want to lean too hard on either.
19:31: There's a middle way.
19:32: Right.
19:32: So I think where I would cut the fine knife is not only should we gather our concept of worship from what is explicitly commanded, but also by what is approved of in God's presence in the Bible, where, where he has seen and approved something as worship and did not produce a punishment.
19:51: I think there's a reasonable exegetical method, right.
19:55: To determine is the Bible recording this or is it affirming this? And we need to be careful with that.
20:02: If you, if you talk about polygamy, that's recorded, not affirmed.
20:06: Right.
20:07: But, but as we look at specific instances, I think there are, there are more things that are approved by God in his presence than are directly explicitly commanded, especially in the new Testament.
20:20: And then there's this idea of good and necessary inferences, which is, I think this goes too far.
20:28: Now, this idea is not mine.
20:30: This is John frame stuff.
20:31: He was a, a, you know, famous apologists.
20:34: He did a lot of good work at reformed theological seminary, and he was the first to kind of break away from the Presbyterian because it's essentially it's a Presbyterian idea originally that us later 1689ers and, and, you know, particular Baptists have adopted.
20:49: This is a very specific Presbyterian problem.
20:53: So, so I would, I would really want to cut that, that line between yes, the explicit commands, but I do think there are approved examples of worship.
21:02: That we also should consider.
21:04: And then there's that category of mean sacrifice to idols.
21:09: There's just some of that bit.
21:11: And the other place I take issue at this is where in the Bible are we given this idea that the celebration on the Lord's day, which I keep the, you know, the Lord's day, where are we given that that, that has a specific set of rules that don't apply to family worship, you know, in your home or, or other arenas of worship.
21:32: That's a, that's a very, I don't mean to interrupt you, but that's, that's a good question because if the regulative principle holds firm, then it would hold firm for all of worship, not just what happens on Sunday morning.
21:44: Right.
21:44: And what part of the Christian's life is not worship, especially if you talk about the Hebrew idea of what is worship, right? It is your work.
21:51: It is your life.
21:52: It is great.
21:53: Present yourself as, as the, as an act of worship.
21:56: So the, the big headline for me is this.
22:00: If you, if you have sola scriptura, you don't need RPW.
22:06: RPW has a tendency to become a doctrine in and of itself as an additional layer to sola scriptura.
22:12: Well, if you're living out sola scriptura, right.
22:15: The sole rule and guide for life and faith of the church is the God breathed scripture.
22:20: I don't need another rule on top of that.
22:23: Um, I don't think, I don't, I don't hate having some guideposts.
22:27: I don't hate having like a general idea, but I've had people come out and flat out tell me, you know, Oh, a pastor wearing jeans that violates the regular principle.
22:40: I don't mean to laugh so hard.
22:42: I just, that, that really.
22:44: Yeah.
22:44: Oh, wow.
22:46: People, people will take it too far.
22:47: I think, I think with anything in, in the new Testament, new covenant life, there is just more nuance of living together.
22:57: Um, so when you talk to hardcore adherence of this, right, the first place they'll go scripturally is strange fire, right? The, the, the, the story in the Torah of the priests bringing inappropriate incense to the altar and God struck them dead.
23:15: And, and I remember our initial conversation on this was, I said something about Leviticus 10.
23:22: That's the passage Nadab and Abihu in the strange fire.
23:25: And you said that doesn't apply.
23:28: I remember how you said, I want to, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but basically I remember thinking, okay.
23:33: All right.
23:33: So where are you coming from on this? I want to hear your thoughts on this.
23:36: Yeah.
23:37: Well, so, so why we are reformed Baptists and not Presbyterians for a lot of reasons, uh, is because we see a fundamental difference in the new covenant as opposed to the old covenant, right? So, so in the, in the Presbyterian world, it says that, well, baptism replaces the, uh, um, circumcision to mark the covenant.
23:59: And I would say, well, yes, that's kind of true.
24:02: The baptism marks the new birth, not the, not the first birth, right.
24:05: But there's a fundamental change in how the covenant is, is given and expressed in everyday life.
24:11: Um, so for us to take the ceremonial law, which we're happy to not utilize in any other capacity, right.
24:20: We're happy that the ceremonial law has been, uh, you know, uh, uh, brought to its fullness with Christ, um, for us to then bring it back to worship and music and lighting and, and whatever seems foolhardy to me, if God wanted us to have that specificity in our worship as a new Testament church, he would have given it to us.
24:43: He, he very capable of having done.
24:46: So instead he says to my mind, sing songs, Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, which to me, that kind of repetition is not saying sing Psalm, Psalms, and other kinds of songs.
24:57: I think it means right.
24:59: The broad variety of, of human expression within the boundaries of scripture have that broad variety.
25:06: Now, here are the things you must do.
25:07: You must preach the gospel, right? It must be proclaimed.
25:10: You must have the ordinances or sacraments as some would say, you must have prayer, uh, and, and giving right.
25:17: Like these things must be in there, but like to take what's the difference between elements and forms.
25:25: So elements, right.
25:27: Are what you would see on a church bulletin, right? We're going to do preaching.
25:30: We're going to do singing.
25:31: We're going to do prayer.
25:33: Those are elements.
25:34: Um, the forms of worship are then how do those things look, smell, sound.
25:40: Um, so to apply the RPW to, to the forms and not the elements becomes a problem.
25:49: It existed because we needed to understand that we don't need a priest to re-sacrifice Christ on our behalf and then turn the bread magically into Jesus.
25:59: That's why it existed.
26:00: Um, we don't need to pray to saints.
26:02: That's an additional element that we can take out.
26:05: Um, but then to, to apply it further, um, I think we should be cautious because I love rules.
26:13: Most Calvinists tend to lean toward the legalism side, most of us.
26:18: Right.
26:18: But nonetheless, we have been told that it is for freedom that Christ made us free.
26:22: So like, I just think that there's not enough balance or nuance.
26:26: And I say this, why this matters is because within the last, I don't know, two, three years, since reckless love became a song.
26:34: So many people have jumped into this conversation and want to talk about it.
26:39: It's gotta be more than two or three years.
26:41: I've been hearing the reckless love argument forever, but yeah, not yet.
26:44: Yeah.
26:44: Time has no meaning, but, but since then people have been like desperately involved in this, right.
26:51: And since then we've seen the growth of Bethel songs and stay away from Hill song and, and it's grown and grown and grown.
26:59: And so many people are jumping in on this, giving their opinions of what worship should and should not look like music, dress, lighting.
27:07: And, and I mean, there's a very real popular meme or whatever going on right now, I'm going to hold it up to the screen just so people have seen it.
27:15: There's a real popular one going on right now, looks like this.
27:21: And it basically just says, here, here are the attempts of evangelical churches to just poorly produced Hill song, a pastor trying to look hip, terrible CCM praise band, cheap sound system with cheaper can lights, lights off when it's time to sing sermon, that's a Ted talk music playing in the background while the words of the service are spoken gospel, not being declared.
27:43: Please stop.
27:44: You're embarrassing the rest of us who are serious about religion.
27:47: Now, about half of those I agree with, right.
27:50: The gospel should be declared.
27:52: Sermon should be more than Ted talks.
27:54: Um, but by what standard are we declaring that these things are wrong, bad, or inappropriate.
27:59: By what standard music playing behind the sermon.
28:04: Can't be possibly could be used with the intention of emotionally manipulation, possibly, but it also could just be adding beauty that God created, right.
28:14: The beauty of music behind the beauty of his words, by what standard are we saying that's wrong? Yeah.
28:20: The right, right now, people who over-apply the regular principle will say that that's wrong because it's not expressly commanded in scripture to do so.
28:29: Yeah, but that becomes, it seems to me that, that, that moves into that area of the difference between elements and forms, right.
28:36: Which is that, which is that conversation you were just having is, is the elements are what is necessary.
28:42: And then the forms is how that becomes, you know, and I know we're going to get to this eventually, but this, this all, even the things like the instruments, you know, that for some reason it became very, very understand understood among certain people that certain instruments are holy and certain instruments are unholy.
29:08: And I did a sermon actually recently.
29:10: We, we had a conference here at the church on worship on the Lord's day.
29:14: That was the, that was the subject of the conference.
29:16: And it was, it was to me this year to, to preach on music, the other elders, one preached on preaching, one preached on prayer, and I preached on, on music.
29:24: And I preached on the passage.
29:26: You mentioned Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.
29:28: And I said almost the same thing you said.
29:29: It's not saying Psalms three times.
29:31: It's saying Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
29:33: But the, the issue becomes, it seems like the form that it takes is regulated somehow, but the scripture doesn't give us that form.
29:43: It just simply gives us the command to sing and to speak to one another in Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs.
29:49: But if, if, you know, R.C.
29:51: Sproul was very big on orchestras and he loved like the violin.
29:57: And, and I say, what is the fundamental difference between a violin and a guitar? They're both a stringed instrument, but one is holy and one is somehow common and wrong, right? Irreverent.
30:11: Right.
30:11: Yeah.
30:12: I, I absolutely can't stand that word.
30:14: I wish the English translators would find a better word because it's just up, it's up for so much grabs what reverent means, you know, to one person vice another.
30:23: I mean, to a lot of people that's going to mean to wear a business casual coat with, with a, with a tie that's reverence.
30:30: Well, maybe, yeah, maybe from the position of a heart, I had, I was in a conversation with a dude who says, you know, the pastor who's trying to look hip wearing hip clothes so he can impress the young people, you know, like that's a heart problem.
30:42: I said, okay, what about me if I wear a business coat and a tie so I can keep you off of my back? Like, it's the same thing.
30:52: I'm still trying to please man.
30:53: God has not prescribed to me what to wear.
30:57: Um, unless we just want to wait a minute.
30:59: He has, it's a black robe.
31:01: Yeah.
31:01: Vestments is exactly what I'm going to say.
31:02: Yeah.
31:03: The only option is vestments.
31:04: That's why we invented vestments was to just like, stop having this conversation.
31:08: Um, right.
31:09: But like, again, by what standard was that set apart? I mean, I'm sure you've heard the stuff about like, uh, drums or the devil's instrument and the rock beat, the four, four beat.
31:19: That's a, that's a hypnotic devil sound.
31:23: Syncopation is of the devil according to, uh, well, I mean, uh, what's his name? Um, Bill Gothard, you know, uh, the, the, the, the teaching there, I've seen a video on YouTube where the guy was explaining how, if you sing, Jesus loves me the right way, Jesus loves me this.
31:41: I know for the Bible tells me so that's right.
31:43: But if you do it in syncopation where you go, Jesus loves me this side, no, then it becomes demonic because it, the emphasis is on the beats two and four.
31:55: This video is available.
31:56: When you look it up, just look up syncopation on YouTube and it, the guy, that's the example he uses is that you can make Jesus loves me demonic simply by changing where you put the emphasis on the words.
32:09: Right.
32:09: Absolutely.
32:10: Right.
32:10: And again, by what standard, by what standard we have scripture, if that standard is in there, I'd love to talk about it.
32:16: At one point, the piano was called the devil's instrument.
32:18: Right.
32:19: And now that's the standard.
32:21: And I love musical tastes and I love the musical variety that's out there.
32:25: But, but, uh, you know, we tend to slip into fundamentalism, trying to be conservative, um, when we don't actually let scripture be our guide, I think a more robust, like real biblical exegesis of scripture, which, which most folks just aren't doing right.
32:42: Um, we'll reveal that there's a lot more range.
32:45: Let me give an example.
32:47: So you talked about interpretive dance.
32:49: I don't want to go watch interpretive dance church.
32:51: I don't.
32:52: Right.
32:53: Um, Tim Keller did it.
32:54: He got a lot of flack for it.
32:56: Um, John frame.
32:57: One of the big things that set him apart in his world was this idea of dance.
33:02: There is a strong, in my opinion, strong, biblically warranted case for dance being an acceptable form of worship.
33:10: David dancing before the arc Miriam's dance.
33:13: Uh, there's the scene in judges where the maidens are dancing at a feast at an official feast, right? You have, uh, Psalm one 49 and one 50, where it's an explicit command.
33:24: It says, let them dance.
33:27: Um, right.
33:28: And so, so here are all these positive guests.
33:32: Yes.
33:32: Dance, right.
33:33: Five or six positive yes.
33:35: Dances.
33:36: And yet we've arrived at a place that says dance is not appropriate worship.
33:40: Okay.
33:41: By what standard, by what standard the Bible has voted five times that it's a plus.
33:46: And I've heard, well, it wasn't at officially on, on the Sabbath.
33:51: I'm like one, you don't know that.
33:54: Yeah.
33:54: You don't know that.
33:55: They, there might've been dancing on the Sabbath and, and two, we're talking about at feasts, the, the, the issue in judges or, or at David's bringing the arc, this is probably holier than a regular Sabbath.
34:08: If you're measuring it, God was present, right? He killed, uh, what's his name Uzziah just 10 seconds ago for touching the arc.
34:18: So when David dances before the arc, right.
34:21: And his wife looks down and sneers at him and says, well, you know how, how you debased yourself, God curses one of the people in that equation.
34:30: And it's not the guy that danced.
34:32: He curses the one that said, don't dance.
34:34: Yeah.
34:34: So like, I don't want to be that one, right.
34:37: I want to be the one who, who does the thing that got approved of now, maybe that's a special circumstance, but nonetheless, that's an official religious function.
34:45: And so to imply, and here's where I was going, I'm really good at ranting.
34:49: I'm sorry.
34:50: No, no.
34:50: This is what you're here for.
34:51: Here's where I was going away from the Leviticus 10 section, right? Um, there is not enough of a correlation between the Lord's day as we celebrate on this side of the resurrection and the ceremonial celebrations in the old Testament, the closest thing are synagogue gatherings, right? But not the regular occasions of sacrifice feasts, sacrifice feasts, prayer, Sabbath.
35:20: It's a very different system than what we have in the new Testament.
35:23: So, so to say David's case of dancing, that was okay because it wasn't on the Sabbath.
35:30: And so we shouldn't do it on the Lord's day to me does not hold water at all.
35:35: God was sitting there present Miriam's dance.
35:37: Again, he was present.
35:40: And, and I think her dance was vastly approved of, and again, Psalm 149 and 50.
35:46: It's an express command to let them dance, not stop them from dancing.
35:50: So that's an element of worship that I'm not comfortable with.
35:54: I don't want to watch it.
35:55: It's weird.
35:56: It's, it's weird.
35:57: I don't want to go to that church.
35:58: Okay.
35:58: Um, but, but I'm not going to tell someone not to do it.
36:03: I don't have that in scripture to do so.
36:05: I don't have that warrant in my opinion.
36:07: No.
36:08: And that's, that's a good point.
36:09: Uh, you know, just because I don't necessarily like something doesn't make it wrong and that's such a hard thing for people to get their minds around.
36:17: That's exactly right.
36:18: And that's Christian maturity that is moving from spiritual milk to spiritual meat.
36:22: It is easy, comfortable, um, quick to grasp to say, well, I'm just going to grab these rules because I don't feel comfortable about engaging in something and say, well, it's based on these rules and I'm not going to do it.
36:33: Right.
36:33: So instruments, another great example, the argument for no instruments is, well, the instruments were used only around feast days in the old Testament examples.
36:45: There are no active commands for utilizing instruments in the new Testament.
36:50: Ergo, it's just easier, simpler, quicker to make that determination rather than fight about which instruments or how, or how loud easier and quicker just to say, this is what God wants us to do, because it's clear there's no active command for instruments in the new Testament.
37:06: Yeah.
37:09: It on the Leviticus 10 passage.
37:11: And I, I, I think what you just said is, is, is right.
37:14: I don't mean to be like, I'm going backwards, but I do want to, I do want to ask you this, um, because the times that I've talked about it in general, the two things that I've stressed is both, both from, from what God, what God, well, one is specifically from what God said.
37:31: And then one is specifically what Moses said to Aaron afterward.
37:34: But what God says is, um, that they had done what was not commanded.
37:39: And that's typically where the regulative principle gets its argument, right? They're not, they, they didn't, they did what was not commanded.
37:45: But the other one is where Moses speaks to Aaron and says, um, for those who approached me, I must be considered as holy and, and, and I must be, you know, what they did, whatever it was.
38:01: Cause we really don't know the Bible says, you know, King James has strange fire, ESV says, unauthorized fire.
38:07: We don't know what it was, but whatever it was, it was from God's perspective.
38:12: It was irreverent.
38:13: It was unholy.
38:14: Yeah.
38:15: And so there are things that ought not be done.
38:20: Agreed.
38:20: Yeah.
38:21: And so that is the, I think that's the difficult part is trying to, you know, and for those who do hold to a very strict regulative principle position, I think that's their goal, if I, if I could give them any, any, uh, you know, grace on that and say their, their, their goal is they don't want to do something that's irreverent, but they begin to eliminate things that aren't, that don't fit into that category.
38:47: Like you said, the way people dress, you know, we have, we have elders at our church, three of us, and we all dress very differently.
38:54: I dress typically in a shirt and tie only because, and I've said this from the pulpit, so I don't mind saying it here.
39:00: I dress in a shirt and tie because my wife likes it.
39:03: I don't do it.
39:04: I don't do it because Jesus makes me do it.
39:06: I don't do it because I think that's the way Jesus dresses or something, you know, I do it because my wife tells me, I like to see you in a tie.
39:15: I like to see you in a, in a dress shirt and she buys me dress shirts.
39:19: She buys me clothing.
39:20: And, and so I basically, I'm, I'm, I am dressed by my wife for church, but what, you know, I would be just as happy in a polo shirt or even a t-shirt as long as it was, you know, nice looking shirt.
39:33: Um, we have other elders.
39:35: One of my elders here is, um, uh, he, he, he wears shorts and some people take issue with that.
39:41: I've never had an issue with it, but he does wear shorts because that is his, he wears shorts if it's 30 degrees outside, he just wears shorts 365 days a year.
39:50: And he, but, but they're really nice shorts and he wears a really nice shirt to go with it.
39:54: You know what I mean? It's not like he's, he's not coming in looking like a, like he just threw it together.
39:58: I mean, he's, it's his nice outfit.
40:00: It's his church outfit.
40:01: And this, this Sunday will be his Easter shorts.
40:04: Um, and then one of our other elders, brother Andy, you know, he is, he is, uh, what'd you say? Business casual, you know, he wears sometimes a polo shirt, sometimes just, uh, you know, some type of shirt.
40:17: But I think sometimes people come into our church and they don't know how to handle the difference.
40:22: I, and they look at, and they say, okay, this guy's wearing a tie.
40:25: This guy's wearing shorts.
40:26: This guy's wearing flip-flops, you know? And it's like, man, they're irreverent, but it's not, it's not irreverent.
40:33: And this is where good elders can, can come forward and instruct a congregation of why we're this way and how we see it.
40:41: Um, and I think that's exactly right.
40:45: Like when I choose what to wear to church, it's going to be based on not being distracting or being a stumbling block for somebody else being comfortable because of the weather and then functionally, can I breathe well enough, you know, to sing or to preach like period.
41:01: Now, if God had said thou shalt wear this, okay, super, it makes life easy, but God has made the gospel more, um, free than that on purpose so that people could come.
41:16: Um, it reminds me of this from Ephesians two, just as you were talking, uh, Ephesians two 14, for he himself is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh, the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandment expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two.
41:37: So making peace and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
41:43: Now he's obviously talking about the wall between the Jew and Gentile, but I don't think that it's wrong to extrapolate from that, that any of these issues, right.
41:52: That might separate or divide us.
41:54: Um, we should come together on them so long as there's room and freedom in scripture, because Christ himself bore that in his body, the hostility has been absorbed into him as he took the wrath, even if there's punishment, right.
42:08: For us coming to God in an unholy manner, if Christ has borne any of the wrath on my behalf, he's born the wrath for that as well.
42:16: Um, and, and, and I have room for correction and growth, but nonetheless, we should still come together as the church and not separate based off of shorts.
42:25: Right.
42:25: Like, like it's so much more important than that.
42:28: Um, I kind of want to get back to songs a little bit, um, because that's a huge divider, right? Like who is it? It was HB Charles, uh, who says that, that Sunday morning is, is the most segregated time in America, um, because we separate on, on music style.
42:46: That's that is, there is a sadness to it.
42:49: Um, I wish that there, there was more freedom and understanding as mature Christians get more comfortable listening to stuff they don't want to hear.
42:58: So they could minister to less mature Christians who maybe need to feel more comfortable.
43:02: Right.
43:03: I think that's ideal, but we have all these rules now floating around with internet Calvinists.
43:09: Um, I call myself the John McCain of the internet Calvinist, because like, I am certainly Calvinist in my soteriology.
43:15: I believe in confessions and creeds.
43:17: Right.
43:18: But like, I'm gonna, I'm going to turn around and tell, you know, when, when you're being, I think a Pharisee, a music Pharisee is as a Calvinist.
43:26: So the rules exist out there on the conservative sides.
43:29: Um, too much repetition is bad.
43:33: Theology is not complex enough.
43:34: That's bad.
43:35: Too much, uh, personal pronouns, you know, songs about me and I that's bad.
43:40: Like, like, uh, maybe inarticulate, uh, metaphors are bad in the, in the reckless love case, and I'm not, I'm not here to defend reckless love.
43:49: Right.
43:49: But generally these rules exist.
43:53: Right.
43:53: Um, and again, I, I asked everyone by what standard, by what standard, because if you really analyze the songs and, and I'm a, I'm a musician, I'm an artist.
44:04: So as I look at the Psalms, I look at them from an artistic perspective, right.
44:08: Um, and still considering them, you know, authoritative scripture, um, you will see all of those rules, man-centered rules broken, uh, look at me, uh, Psalm 13 for me, I'll pop it up and read.
44:22: It's really short.
44:23: Um, Psalm 13 is one of the ones that stood out to me as a really good example.
44:26: So how long, Oh Lord, will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? How long must I take counsel in my soul and sorrow in my heart all the day? How long shall my enemy be exalted over me? Consider an answer me, Oh Lord, my God, light up my eyes.
44:42: Lest I sleep to sleep of death.
44:44: Lest my enemies say I have prevailed over him.
44:46: Lest my foes rejoice because I'm shaken because I have trusted in your steadfast love, my heart shall rejoice in your salvation.
44:52: I will sing to the Lord because he has dealt bountifully with me.
44:56: It's full of right.
44:58: Man-centered pronouns.
45:00: That is the human experience of God.
45:02: And, and more to the point, it's the human experience of God.
45:05: When the human experience isn't super clear.
45:08: Where are you, God? I'm suffering.
45:10: I need you.
45:11: Where are you? Well, well, I think the today Calvinist would say, well, you know where God is.
45:15: You should just sing about his qualities, right? He's unchanging.
45:19: You don't need to sing about your experience of him.
45:21: Sing of his experience of us.
45:23: Okay.
45:23: Well, David wasn't wrong.
45:25: David wasn't wrong.
45:26: Um, Psalm 134 is three verses, three verses.
45:30: That is an inspired Holy Psalm.
45:32: It's three verses.
45:33: Um, and it's not particularly complex, like this idea that, you know, the hymns of the past, they were just deeper.
45:40: They're so deep, deep, deep, deep.
45:42: Okay.
45:42: Listen, the songs in the nineties were terrible.
45:44: There were terrible contemporary worship songs in the nineties.
45:47: They were booboo.
45:47: Hey, hey, hey, okay.
45:49: A lot of, I, I, I grew up in the nineties.
45:52: I did too.
45:53: I did too.
45:54: And, uh, you're not wrong, but I still, I still like a few of them.
45:57: There was a phase though, where, where like songs were not very deep.
46:01: So we are swinging that pendulum to want deep songs.
46:04: I love that.
46:05: It's not a biblical standard.
46:06: It's not a biblical standard.
46:08: Are we singing true things? The most important thing to me is revelation four, eight.
46:11: When people tell me all the time, I don't want to hear those seven, 11 songs, seven words repeated 11 times.
46:16: I'm like, well, then you're going to hate heaven, bro.
46:18: Cause God is sitting in heaven and the angels are singing three verses of a song continually.
46:24: And it's not particularly complex.
46:26: It just says he is holy.
46:29: That's simple, but deep, right? It's not an exegesis paper.
46:33: It's not a, it's not a, a long sermon, but it's the deepest thing in the world that he is holy and it is sung continually over and over again in his presence.
46:42: So again, you can just say, I don't like repetitive songs.
46:47: I don't like man-centered songs.
46:49: Cool.
46:50: I hear you.
46:51: Don't tell me one's better or wrong, or you can't not by what standard if we have soul scriptura by what standard.
46:59: So like, I don't know, man, I love, I love worship music and I get where people are at with not wanting to sing Bethel songs.
47:09: I get it.
47:10: I don't agree with like the full boycott me personally.
47:15: I don't agree with that.
47:16: To me, a song is a tool.
47:18: And if all of the words of the song are correct, uh, me as a, as a biblical elder, uh, a pastor of music, teaching my congregation, I can teach through that music and say, yes, we had to give a dime to this church to use the song, but this song is beautiful.
47:34: And it's, it's a tool.
47:36: Um, we aren't consistent in this idea when they say, well, you don't want to support false teachers.
47:41: Well, I don't know.
47:42: Like I pay my water bill as a church and my power bill as a church to Caesar.
47:47: And Caesar is not great.
47:50: Um, maybe I don't pay taxes as a church, but like every light bulb I buy, I don't know who manufactured that.
47:56: It could be some atheists.
47:57: I don't know.
47:58: I don't know.
47:59: I don't think that my sin extends that next level because I paid the workman what he was due because there was a tool of a song that was true, beautiful, right, scripturally sound that I'm using.
48:11: Now, if someone wants to say, I'm not doing that.
48:15: Okay.
48:16: Okay.
48:16: That's fine.
48:17: But when I was a pastor in a church anyway, and we did sing Bethel songs, I didn't lose anybody from that church to all of a sudden go, Oh, I need to go grave soaking.
48:27: This church that's biblically sound is no longer working for me because you led me down this path, right? Bethel was this gateway drug.
48:33: Uh, well, I don't, I never endorsed Bethel.
48:35: This was just a song about Christ that was entirely true.
48:38: Um, and, and man, like there are, there are other songs that we like that are written by people whose theologies we wouldn't endorse.
48:46: There are Christmas songs or old, old hymns that are Catholic, for example, that we still sing.
48:53: Um, the, the, uh, what's that song.
48:58: Oh, it'll come to me.
48:59: Is it the one with the, uh, about the man whose daughters died? Yes.
49:05: Yeah.
49:05: Yeah.
49:05: Yeah.
49:05: That's it as well with it as well.
49:07: Yeah.
49:08: Didn't he like end up in a cult or something at the end? And he ended up, yeah, he ended up falling away and being, uh, yeah.
49:14: Yes.
49:15: Having some terrible theology.
49:16: Yeah.
49:16: So I'm not going to endorse that guy.
49:18: I'm not going to endorse Martin Luther who hated Jews at the end of his life either, but I'm going to keep singing, you know, mighty fortress.
49:24: Like, I just don't think that that this like current zeitgeist of, of piling on is as scripturally sound as it is popular.
49:36: And it just seems to be a trend to me that I see a lot of young baby Catholics, especially or Catholics Calvinists, uh, you know, cage stagers getting over their skis, um, and, and not coming back to scripture, they'll grab on a couple of proof texts for this thing.
49:50: But I tell people all the time, like, look, man, I'm not trying to judge you or one up anybody.
49:55: That's not a thing, but I've been in worship ministry for, for a very long time and I've seen good songs, common, good songs, go bad songs, common, bad songs go.
50:03: Um, but I have like, like gone through this scripture so many times with the eye of what does it mean for my worships music? I don't know if anybody, everybody else has done that.
50:15: I just think it's a popular thing.
50:18: Yeah.
50:18: I want to mention too, just a step back on something you say, cause you talked about giving them a dime to sing the song.
50:25: I, um, I, I had on the program about a year and a half ago, you know, I've been doing, I was doing coffee with the Calvinist before it was conversations.
50:34: And back when I did the show every day, I had, you know, just a lot of content that I was putting out.
50:41: And I had a man who was actually our former worship leader.
50:44: His name's John Mercer.
50:45: He came on and we talked about, because he has a lot of experience with music, like yourself.
50:51: He's a tremendous musician and he's been a worship leader for a long time.
50:55: And we talked about that idea of paying to use music and how, if you sing a song from Bethel or Hillsong or whatever, you're, you're supporting them.
51:06: And he talked about the aggregate of CCLI and how that worked.
51:10: And so I would encourage any of our listeners, if you want to know what that means when you said, you know, give them a dime or whatever his point was that, you know, if you're using CCLI at all, you're endorsed, you know, this money is you're already paying.
51:24: Yeah, this, yeah.
51:25: You, and we, there, I recently interviewed a man, um, Conley Owens.
51:29: I don't know if you've ever heard of him.
51:31: Conley Owens wrote a book called the Dorian principle, and it's on the idea of ministry should never cost.
51:36: And the idea that we shouldn't have to have CCLI, we shouldn't have to have these copyrights and things like that.
51:41: And it's a, it's a very interesting read.
51:43: I would encourage you to read it.
51:44: I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
51:46: But, and what's interesting is he doesn't charge for the book.
51:48: It's completely free.
51:49: He's, he's at least consistent with his own, with his own message.
51:52: Um, but, uh, in our conversation, my conversation with Conley, we talked about that too, just the idea that, um, if we're going to put words on a screen, or if we're going to live stream, which is a new thing that you have to pay the, the, you have to pay a fee to live stream that includes music, then, then all of this is going to be part and parcel of, of what it's going to take to do the ministry.
52:17: And the only way to get away from that would be to abandon anything that would be, if you're being consistent.
52:24: Yeah.
52:24: Yeah.
52:25: You'd have to say, okay.
52:26: And even, even hymn books are, you know, there's a copyright in the hymn book.
52:29: You can't photocopy a hymn book and hand out the photocopy.
52:32: Yep.
52:33: Yeah.
52:34: Precisely.
52:35: I don't think we're consistent and I don't think it's a scripturally based rule.
52:38: If it's a personal conviction, man, go for your personal conviction all day long.
52:43: I'm not going to get in the way of that.
52:45: Um, but to force it on another, I think is when it, when it becomes an issue and I don't actually care what other people do, frankly, if they're not under my charge, I just want more people to really do the work.
52:58: If you're going to make this like authoritative claim, do the work in scripture, because there's more range there than I think people think as far as what is an acceptable song is.
53:08: And that's not even getting into lights and dress.
53:11: And should we have a bulletin? Should we have announcements? Like mature elders should be wrestling with those things, but they should be doing it with a solo scriptura perspective, right? Like lights, for example, people have a, have a real hard time with the lights thing and why smoke machines, you're just trying to be like a rock concert.
53:29: I don't think that's true.
53:30: I've used smoke machines.
53:32: Um, the reason is to show beautiful things.
53:35: The temple and the tabernacle had garden imagery because they were beautiful.
53:39: The temple and the tabernacle had smoke from, from the offerings, right? Raising and capturing the light.
53:46: And my goodness, what is a stained glass picture, if not manipulating light to make something beautiful? So by what standard is the laser light and the, and the smoke show, if you're, if this is going to sound cheap, I guess, but if you as a pastor are doing that, because I want to attract young people, then you're wrong, right? Then you're wrong.
54:08: That's the wrong reason for doing it.
54:09: If you have that stuff and like, we had a kid, a young high school student who could just make beautiful imagery with that.
54:17: And that was part of his service to the church.
54:20: I, I, I'm not seeing by what standard that is a wrong thing.
54:25: And if you want to talk about, well, you shouldn't be spending $5,000 on a light system.
54:29: Okay.
54:30: Yeah.
54:31: But we have a process.
54:32: Yeah.
54:32: That's a different argument.
54:33: And we have a process for that.
54:34: There's a council who makes decisions, who spends the money or however it is in your church.
54:39: Right.
54:39: But, but that, but you didn't mean that you actually meant I don't like it.
54:43: I've heard it's worldly ergo.
54:45: I'm done with that.
54:47: That's right.
54:47: Like there's a, there's a popular meme with MacArthur and I love Dr.
54:51: MacArthur.
54:52: So same, far be it for me, for anybody to immediately think I'm attacking the great Johnny Mac, because I I've actually come to his defense several times on this show of people who've attacked him or whatever, but there, there is a meme where he talks about, um, you know, put regular light bulbs and, you know, just preach the gospel and, you know, try to sell that, that that's see how many people come to that.
55:16: Yeah.
55:16: But if you watch the grace and this, this just recently happened in my life.
55:22: I, I just, I had never watched a grace church, um, service.
55:26: I'd seen him preach a hundred times, but I'd never seen a grace church service.
55:29: And I watched a grace church service and, um, it was, there, there had to have been a hundred and so some odd people in the choir alone, there were more people in his choir than are in our church.
55:42: And those choir members are wearing robes that are that one, they're all the same that I think they were like maroon with like a gold or some kind of, you know, like a vest V a V shape.
55:54: And maybe I'm remembering this wrong.
55:55: So somebody may come back and correct me later and say, oh, they weren't wearing, but they were wearing choir robes and choir robes are expensive.
56:02: You know, I, we, we, we years ago, we had a choir.
56:05: We don't anymore, but years ago we had a choir.
56:07: Choir robes are expensive.
56:10: And, um, so when you start talking about what you mentioned earlier, well, $5,000 for lights, I imagine there's probably several thousand dollars worth of choir robes up there and there was an entire orchestra up there, there was lighting that wasn't, it wasn't laser style lighting, but there was lighting that was still theatrical.
56:30: Yes.
56:30: And it was still intended to give a, a certain, you know, theatrical look.
56:37: Um, you know, I've been, I've been recently, I don't know if you can see my studio.
56:40: I've been recently learning about three point lighting and, you know, thing, you know, it's neat to, to, to try to put, to put out a good product, right? If you're getting out of video, you want, you don't want to do things with excellence.
56:51: That's right.
56:52: There's nothing wrong with excellence.
56:54: That's right.
56:54: And so, um, you know, I think there is, it's like, well, if you have this kind of light, it's wrong, but if you have this kind of light, it's right.
57:02: If you have this, it's, and again, it does become so subjective and it becomes so frustrating for me because I have friends and people who are going to watch this program, who are going to say, you should be on the other side of this key.
57:11: You should be holding firm and saying anybody who has this is absolutely wrong.
57:17: And that's where it's hard for me because I don't take those stands.
57:20: You know, I, I, I.
57:22: If you want to hate me for a minute, just so they get back on your side.
57:25: That's fine.
57:25: I don't mind, but just ask by what standard, by what standard I'm here, let's open our Bibles together and consider whether these things are true.
57:33: I am a conservative, sola scriptura, seven points of Tula Calvinist, um, and, and sola scriptura is harder than fundamentalism.
57:44: Fundamentalism is a cheap, easy drug.
57:46: It's just tribalism.
57:48: Like, like resurfaced.
57:50: Sola scriptura is harder because the gospel, we have to bear with one another.
57:54: That's what the gospel says in the old Testament.
57:57: You just threw rocks at the people who did wrong and they got punished in the new we have to bear with one another and forgive one another and don't make each other stumble and that's harder to do, but to the glory of God, because we get to point to Christ who has taken the punishment for ceremony already on our behalf.
58:14: Absolutely.
58:15: And I just, I was writing as you were talking, because what you just said, fundamentalism is a cheap, easy drug.
58:21: Yeah, it is.
58:22: And, and it's tribalism that, that honestly, if, if people listening to this, if you don't get anything outside of this today, that was, that was money right fundamentalism feels good, man.
58:33: Like that's the thing is it feels good.
58:34: Cause you feel right.
58:35: And we want to feel right.
58:36: But, but sometimes the gospel causes us to walk out beyond our comfort zone, especially if you're a mature Christian, right.
58:43: And sacrifice your comfort for, for the baby brother, who's still on milk.
58:48: Um, and if God, again, if God wanted to give us Leviticus for the new Testament, he would have done so, but, but he didn't.
58:55: And, uh, I think that's to the glory of God, because we're just talking about this, think about this.
59:02: We've only been talking about Western music.
59:04: We're not talking about African music and Korean music and, you know, Mongolian music who, who their music looks nothing like our hymns.
59:12: And it's probably great.
59:13: You know, I talked about that in the sermon I preached.
59:16: I said, when somebody says, you know, this music is right.
59:19: And this music is wrong.
59:20: They almost always exclude anything that is not English because they are not familiar.
59:26: We have a, we have a missionary that we support who goes to Indonesia and he supports a, he, he ministers to the Dow tribe, which never saw a white man until he went into their village and introduced them to the gospel.
59:40: It's amazing story.
59:42: His name is Scott Phillips.
59:43: And I, you know, I know for a fact that what Scott sings with them is not like what we sing.
59:49: He's not singing, you know, uh, how great is our God, you know, he's singing their style and, and yeah.
59:58: Sing the Lord, a new song that matters.
01:00:00: That's there for a reason.
01:00:02: Um, I don't know, man, I love what God has given us in the gift of music.
01:00:08: He has created beauty and just because other people do it poorly doesn't make the tool unusable.
01:00:15: So yes, there are seeker sensitive churches who are trying to entertain new people to get butts in seats.
01:00:22: Yes, those exist.
01:00:23: I don't endorse that.
01:00:24: I don't think that the Lord's day is for new people.
01:00:27: The Lord's day is for believers.
01:00:29: Um, if new people come and they hear the gospel and are changed great, but I want believers to come on the Lord's day to celebrate, be fed on the gospel so they can go back out and, and proclaim the gospel out there.
01:00:39: Right.
01:00:40: Um, uh, so, so does that mean that I have to visually look different than a seeker sensitive church? Do I have to, what separates me should be the gospel that is preached, right? The intention that's put into it, maybe the structure of the church, but, um, am I not allowed to have a coffee bar or coffee bars? Is like, are they inherently evil? Because Hillsong uses coffee bars because that's like saying Hitler liked art.
01:01:05: So we can't like paintings, like it's just a fallacy.
01:01:09: Um, and it makes us feel righteous.
01:01:11: That's the thing, man.
01:01:12: Like so many of these conversations, especially on the internet, I just tell people like, Hey, isn't it great that we get to say, thank God I'm not like these you know, like, isn't that what that is? And like that, that thing in the human flesh to want to feel righteous at the expense of others on our own self-righteousness that still creeps into the shadows of our heart as we wrestle with our flesh.
01:01:35: So even good Calvinists still have that within them.
01:01:38: And the thing about fundamentalism is it's done in the name of orthodoxy.
01:01:43: So it looks holier than it is.
01:01:45: Yeah.
01:01:46: It's funny that you, you, you mentioned the coffee bar thing, because I, you know, I have my own thoughts on what, what the church, you know, what we should have, what we shouldn't have.
01:01:56: And I've always lived in the context of.
01:01:59: 80 to a hundred people church, you know, so we, we, we have a, uh, for those who don't realize this, that's a much different context than a 300 member church or 500 member church or 1500 member church.
01:02:11: So, you know, I've always said the guys down the street with the 1500 member church, his problems are different than my problems, his issues.
01:02:18: And so I've never had to ask the coffee bar question because there's not enough people.
01:02:23: I mean, we have a coffee stand in our Sunday school room that we give away coffee, but it's not, you know, it's not, I'm sorry.
01:02:31: You just, you, you pump me up, man.
01:02:32: Because like, again, this is another reason why I'm not a Presbyterian.
01:02:35: I'm not just not a Presbyterian because of, of baby sprinkling.
01:02:38: I'm not a Presbyterian because I believe in the power of the local authority of a governing elder board, local, right.
01:02:45: Local to my church, individual churches, because they know the challenges that are in my neighborhood.
01:02:50: And so with scripture as our sole rule and authority, we're going to decide those forms that matter.
01:02:55: And I'm not going to impress that on Wisconsin.
01:02:57: And I'm not going to impress that on Mongolia.
01:02:59: Um, and so like, I, I'm not saying the Presbyterians are awful for having a, like this concept of how their churches are connected, but I think that the gospel was designed to grow and spread by localities, having the, the, the sole authority at their, at their fingertips to make those decisions on the local level.
01:03:20: So is a coffee bar fundamentally a biblical issue? No, but there certainly is a biblical way to approach it.
01:03:26: That's right.
01:03:27: Stewardship and what's our heart and so on and so forth.
01:03:30: That probably has nothing to do with the church next to you.
01:03:34: Yeah.
01:03:34: And it's so funny that you mentioned that because we had, uh, years and years ago, we had a Presbyterian church near us close and three of the families, it was a small church that had gotten really small.
01:03:45: So there was only a few families that were left, but when it closed, three of the families came here and one of the men, he became one of my sweetest supporters.
01:03:52: Uh, he was, I did his funeral just a few years ago.
01:03:55: It's such a lovely guy, but he said something funny.
01:03:58: The first time he came here, he goes, um, he goes, okay, so who are the elders? And I told him who the elders were.
01:04:03: And he said, okay, who's, who's, who are you guys accountable? Is there a Presbytery or whatever? It was like, no, this is it.
01:04:09: He goes, well, what if we don't like your decision? I was like, that's it.
01:04:15: Bible has a method for calling out elders to scripture.
01:04:18: Exactly.
01:04:19: I said, it's in the body.
01:04:21: The decisions are made within the body and the governance is within the body.
01:04:27: It's not from, we don't have an outside groups.
01:04:29: That's going to come and chastise us.
01:04:31: If there's chastisement that needs to be made, it's going to happen here.
01:04:35: And he really was, you know, again, he was, he was just surprised.
01:04:40: Yeah.
01:04:40: He's like, yeah, an elder should be afraid.
01:04:42: Right.
01:04:43: Obey your elders as those who are accountable for your souls.
01:04:46: Like if an elder hears that and is not in a good, healthy sense, terrified, they shouldn't be an elder, right? Like there is accountability.
01:04:53: It's just kind of the eternal kind that has bigger consequences.
01:04:56: Then did the, did the boss in Ohio get mad at me because I changed the hymnal without asking.
01:05:02: Yeah.
01:05:03: Yeah, absolutely.
01:05:05: So I do want to, and I know we need to draw to a close.
01:05:07: I'm taking you away from your family.
01:05:10: Yeah, well, I've enjoyed it and I would love to have you again.
01:05:13: Maybe we'll talk about one of the other issues, but I want to, I want to start to draw to a close, but I want to ask this question and I know this is going to be the question on the heart of several of my friends, like I said, I've got a lot of guys who fit very squarely into that fundamentalist, you know, and I would say this, they've been influenced a lot by Justin Peters and I love Justin Peters.
01:05:32: So I'm not saying, you know, he's bad.
01:05:37: I think he's, in fact, recently we showed clouds without water here at our church, because I think what he does against false teachers, a lot of that is good stuff.
01:05:44: Um, but in regard to this subject, he has come out and basically said, if you play a Hill song song, or if you are, um, you know, if you happen to use their music at all that you're sinning.
01:05:57: And so there are people who have adopted that, that it's a sin, not that it's a preference, but that it's a sin.
01:06:05: And so, um, if you were in a church that was divis divided on that issue, how would you, would you say it's just not worth the battle and just give up and just not play those at all? If you knew there were some people that were really convicted by that, or would you have individual conversations with them? What, what, what are your thoughts on that? I think I would, I would try to manage it at the individual level as much as I could.
01:06:29: I do believe that where music ministers and worship leaders fail is they don't engage and they don't teach enough.
01:06:36: Um, so when I was leading a worship band at a church, we did not start music before we had a good, uh, time of devotion taught by me, by the elder in charge of worship about worship.
01:06:48: Right.
01:06:48: Um, and then engaging individuals with issues one-on-one.
01:06:52: Um, I think for me, if it came to a place where it was hurting and dividing the church, I would take that as a challenge then.
01:07:00: Um, and I want to give this challenge out to every musician out there.
01:07:04: Um, if, if you think that this Bethel song is so good that it's worth dividing a church over, um, write a better song.
01:07:12: You can do it.
01:07:13: God and the Holy spirit are capable.
01:07:15: Um, there are new bands out there.
01:07:17: There are good bands out there that, that are growing a more Orthodox sense of, of good music, in my opinion, what is good music.
01:07:25: And so that is coming, but it's coming slowly.
01:07:28: Um, no, I would not cut a church over a Bethel song.
01:07:31: I would retire the song if it was that kind of a thing.
01:07:34: Um, I would manage it for as long as I felt with, with good counsel, it was manageable, but at some point, no, the song can go.
01:07:42: Um, I do want to tell people all the time who, who say, well, they just don't make music like they used to.
01:07:48: You're probably not aware of all the good music that's being made.
01:07:51: There are a lot of really great bands out there.
01:07:53: City of light is kind of one of my current favorites right now.
01:07:56: Um, who make very complex, theologically rich song with a fairly modern sound.
01:08:02: Um, I think, I think we could get a little better sound wise, like city of light.
01:08:07: My big issue with them is they don't do bridges.
01:08:09: Like I want a good bridge, man.
01:08:10: That's just, there's just something about being in Western music in 2020s that I need a good bridge.
01:08:16: But like, I would take that as a challenge to make, make better music.
01:08:20: And we can, we certainly are, are able to.
01:08:23: Um, let that be a piece of what God is calling your church too, if that's the case and have that church member who has that statement somehow be involved in helping me, you know, in supporting that in some capacity, you know, bring them into the mission of, okay, fine.
01:08:39: Like then let's make good music.
01:08:41: Let's, let's pull these scriptures together.
01:08:42: And let's talk about what a good scripture and a scripturally based worship song looks like.
01:08:47: Let's write it together, like get involved in this.
01:08:49: It just should not be the musicians.
01:08:52: I hate this idea when people go, oh, that music is, is excellent looking with sound loud and lights and lasers.
01:09:00: That just means they're performing.
01:09:02: I I've been in worship music a long time.
01:09:05: I've never known anybody who's just performing who, who doesn't want the congregation to sing with them because they do it excellently with a gift that might be different than the gift of the congregation, we might be elevating that sound through artificial methods, but I don't know anybody.
01:09:23: I've never met anybody who's just performing because you wouldn't.
01:09:27: There are other places to do that where you get more money for it, frankly, you know I think it's just too far when we think we have the ability to discern hearts Jesus had that ability to look around a room and know their hearts.
01:09:40: I don't think we always do.
01:09:41: And the hard part of pastoring right.
01:09:43: Is taking that time to have that conversation, to cultivate understanding through scripture as the guide.
01:09:49: Um, so it was a long way of saying I would not split a church over it.
01:09:53: Um, I would retire the song and hopefully make something better.
01:09:57: My wife and I were recently introduced to a group called my soul among lions.
01:10:02: You ever heard of them? Yes.
01:10:03: Yeah.
01:10:04: Yeah.
01:10:04: See that's, and that is the, an example of what, excuse me, what you're talking about with they're producing newer content, good content.
01:10:16: Um, and, and like you said, it may be not be as coming as fast as we would like, but it's good stuff.
01:10:22: And, and, and, and these guys are solid guys.
01:10:25: And of course, sovereign grace music has been around for a long time.
01:10:28: And, and we do a lot of Shane and Shane here at the church, our church, you know, we do, um, you know, a lot of their songs.
01:10:35: In fact, I'm going to be playing tomorrow at a, at a, at a, um, uh, the local church is having their anniversary celebration.
01:10:43: It's a set free church.
01:10:44: I preach there on Thursdays and they're having their anniversary celebration.
01:10:47: They invite people who play music to come and just play.
01:10:49: And so me and our former worship leader are going to come and play.
01:10:53: Play, um, acoustic guitar and just sing some Shane and Shane.
01:10:56: It's going to be like two, two fatter versions are going to be up there.
01:11:02: The one thing I would say about that though, about, you know, cause I want people to go and learn these new bands and, and, you know, you're not going to find it on the radio.
01:11:10: You have to go look for them.
01:11:11: And, you know, there are good Facebook groups that talk about this kind of stuff.
01:11:14: The problem with that though, is I think this fundamentalism has a never satisfied hunger.
01:11:21: Um, and they're like Shane and Shane is on the chopping block right now.
01:11:24: It's like, oh, well, you know, one time they, uh, they shared an elevator with Chris Tomlin and Chris Tomlin did a concert one time with, uh, Bethel and so, you know, can't associate with people who associate with people.
01:11:35: And, and so like, I just don't know when that ends.
01:11:38: I don't know when people, unless Jesus himself is writing all the songs, ultimately your songs are going to be written by sinners.
01:11:44: And I'm not talking about forgiving degrees of sin, but at what point do you look at someone and say they are Orthodox enough that it's okay? Because my goodness, we love, uh, uh, amazing grace and I am not, uh, uh, supportive of, of the man's theology, right.
01:12:01: As far as soteriology is concerned, probably some other pieces.
01:12:04: So like, when is, where is that line? And by what standard? Yeah.
01:12:09: And you keep saying that and that's exactly right.
01:12:11: What's the standard.
01:12:12: And see, I didn't know anything about the problematic shame and shame, but I'm sure I'm going to hear about it eventually because it's, it's there.
01:12:18: And it's, you know, we do a lot of their songs.
01:12:21: So, um, and do you think, and maybe this will be what we end on.
01:12:25: Do you think that there is a reverse cancel culture that is on our side? Because I, I, I know we always, as, as conservative Christians, we often talk about the cancel culture of the left and how they're, but don't you see that with us though, to that? Oh, for sure.
01:12:44: I mean, first of all, you know, I was raised in an era where the chick track said, I'm not allowed to play Dungeons and Dragons.
01:12:51: So like conservative fundamental Christians invented cancel culture.
01:12:55: So we are still very good at it.
01:12:57: I don't think I'd really thought of how this thing is connected to that, but yeah, it is the same thing because, because with the left, um, it's all about virtue signaling and feeling righteous.
01:13:08: In our case, we have the son of righteousness who has given us an example of his righteousness.
01:13:13: Um, but I think we still sell it cheaply to feel good.
01:13:16: I think we still sell his righteousness.
01:13:18: Uh, you know, we, we, it was going to be strong language, but we whore it out so that we can feel righteous about our own position.
01:13:26: And I'm not saying everybody who doesn't like Bethel is doing that.
01:13:28: I'm not saying that.
01:13:29: But I am saying that like, that is lurking in the shadows of this game.
01:13:34: Um, so again, it's not this or that there are ditches on either side of a narrow road and Christ has given us that narrow road through his scripture.
01:13:41: So if we have scripture and we are sold scriptura, I don't know that we need the RPW.
01:13:47: Um, you know, I just think that we need to adhere to scripture and there are places where things aren't explicitly commanded, but are given approved biblical warrant.
01:13:55: Um, and for me, that's good enough.
01:13:58: I gotcha.
01:13:59: I gotcha.
01:14:00: And again, I think that this is, this is something to consider.
01:14:03: And I, and I think what you said, and, and, and, and, and this is really, I think very wise, if we hold the soul of scriptura, then the regulative principle is unnecessary because we're still, we're holding to what the Bible says we're holding to the scripture and, uh, and I think that's, that's, there's wisdom in that and, uh, uh, good thoughts, good thoughts for sure.
01:14:23: Let me just plug a couple of books, kind of where some of these thoughts come from because they're not all original.
01:14:28: Uh, Covenantal Worship is the name of the book.
01:14:30: It's by a guy named R.J.
01:14:31: Gore Jr.
01:14:32: Uh, he was also a chaplain and this was kind of his, uh, um, thesis at one of our chaplain schools.
01:14:38: And it's just another look at the regular principle, basically just saying regular principle, inherently good, but applied too far.
01:14:46: Um, John frame has a couple of books on this, uh, worship and spirit and truth and contemporary worship music for people who are wanting to just like see some of the ground that's already been trod on this.
01:14:55: Don't recreate the wheel.
01:14:57: I'm certainly not going to text out all of the books contents while I'm arguing with you on Facebook.
01:15:02: Like I'm going to, I'm going to Amazon link you the book, you read it and then we'll talk about it.
01:15:06: So these are great resources.
01:15:07: I really recommend everybody read.
01:15:09: Wonderful.
01:15:10: And I appreciate those.
01:15:11: And I love Dr.
01:15:12: Frame.
01:15:12: I used his book in our apologetics class and it, it was heavy, but it's good stuff.
01:15:18: Uh, he's definitely a good author.
01:15:20: Well, Jake, I want to thank you for being with me today and, and, and sharing with our, uh, our, our listeners and our viewers, your, your years of experience in leading worship and the thoughts that you have, which are obviously, uh, have been formed not only through your time in ministry, but also your time in, uh, in, in service, uh, you, you've had to deal with people from every walk of life in the military, and I'm sure that's been effective on you as well.
01:15:46: And I want to say thank you.
01:15:48: I know you hear it a lot probably, but thank you for your service.
01:15:51: Thank you for, for continuing to be a minister of the word, even in a difficult context.
01:15:57: I'm sure the military provides you a difficult context and, uh, we're thankful for you doing that and, uh, and for giving us your time today.
01:16:05: Thanks for having me.
01:16:06: I just want to plug really quick, my Facebook tag group.
01:16:08: You may have heard of it.
01:16:10: Just say you don't understand reform theology and move along.
01:16:13: It's a great community of people who analyze bad arguments against Calvinism and have a good laugh about it.
01:16:19: So if you're on Facebook, look us up.
01:16:21: Absolutely.
01:16:22: Absolutely.
01:16:23: And thank you for that.
01:16:24: And listener, I want to thank you for being with us today.
01:16:26: I hope that you have been encouraged and edified by what we had in this conversation.
01:16:31: And I want to say this, if you disagree, uh, that's okay.
01:16:35: But if you have something you would like for us to come back and talk about again, thankfully, Jake is back on this side of the pond for a while.
01:16:42: And I'm sure that he would be willing to come back again.
01:16:45: Is that right? Jake? Yeah, please have me back anytime.
01:16:47: Absolutely.
01:16:48: So if you have a question you'd like for us to dig deeper into or have more of a conversation about, please feel free to reach out to me.
01:16:55: Calvinistpodcastatgmail.com is the email again, Calvinistpodcastatgmail.com.
01:16:58: And I also want to ask for this favor.
01:17:00: If you enjoyed this video, please hit like, and subscribe to our video.
01:17:04: So you'll get new content as we put it out.
01:17:06: And also if you're on Facebook, share this on your page so that other people can see it as well.
01:17:11: And again, I want to thank you for listening to conversations with a Calvinist.
01:17:15: My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.
01:17:18: May God bless you.