Baptism Debate: Matt Slick vs. Travis Thomas from the Church of Christ

Debate Format and Opening Positions

All right, everybody. Welcome. This is Matt Slick from calm org and with me I have Travis Thomas, which I didn't know which which was his first name or second name. But there we go. And so we're going to be debating tonight a specific topic.

He'll introduce himself in a little bit specific topic is is water baptism by immersion necessary for salvation. He's taking the affirmative. So therefore he's going to go first I take the negative and I'll be responding to him and we're gonna go through 10-minute opening 10-minute response five minute response five minute response.

And then we're gonna have a kind of a back-and-forth Discussion time and then we'll open up the questions from people if they want to do that I think that's and if Travis wants to change that along the way.

I'm fine with that I'm really casual about things like that. So not a problem. You guys know who I am and Matt slick from calm org. All right, Travis, you want to introduce yourself?

Yeah, my name is Travis Thomas, I'm just a Christian a member of the Church of Christ. Of course, the church belongs to Jesus. So I'm nothing special. I don't carry any kind of title as a reverend or pastor or anything like that.

I'm just a just a Christian. That's pretty much it. I live in Tennessee area. I do have a YouTube channel. If you watch this and you want to learn more about what the Bible teaches. You can go to Travis preaches truth on YouTube or you can even call me.

My number is nine three one two six Seven nine zero nine five. And I do put my own personal phone number out there on the web because I believe if you're sincere. And you're wanting to know the truth.

Give me a call. We can discuss. If you have an open heart and open mind.

Well, thank you very much Travis and Of course, I don't get my personal number out because people try to kill me they follow me and so I've been swatted and death threats and the whole bit so. All right.

If you guys want go for it you can you ready to open just. Just go for it. Yeah, both give ten minutes up to okay, or if you'll go a little over that's fine. All right.

All right. I'm gonna go ahead and start my ten minutes. Again I already did my introduction, but I'm doing this for two main reasons. Jew three is to contend earnestly for the faith. I love Matt's soul, but I believe he is a heretic and teaches false doctrine as he said earlier but you didn't hear it that we can conduct ourselves in a Cordial manner and be nice to one another but he is teaching false doctrine.

So Jew three is to contend for the faith and mark 16 verse 15 is to go into all the world and preach the gospel. So if you're viewing this again, I already gave out my personal information. I have ten minutes to affirm what I am teaching.

What I believe to be truth. Let's see here and That is I'm affirming that the scriptures teach that a lost person Must be water baptized to be saved. We're going to have a question and answer but a lost person Must be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

This is does not include children infants. They are not lost and so they are not in this category. I'm I do believe that you must have faith. You must hear the Word of God. You must repent you must confess Those things but this is a discussion about water baptism.

Water baptism really hangs up a lot of people in denominational world and it's one of the most simplest things that the Bible teaches that's required. It is not a ceremony as Matt puts out on some of his videos by his definition even preaching the gospel could be a Religious ceremony and first Peter 321 Peter is talking to Jews there and he says not the not the removal of the filth of the flesh so he's telling these Jews that is not a religious ceremony and That one verse there.

Also, we see in Mark 16 16 and when I put this on my youtube channel. Of course, Matt would say the same thing is get your Bibles out. I wish the screens would have the scriptures up on there because in Mark 16 16 Jesus says he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be Damned.

So even Jesus says he that believeth and is baptized the and there we understand that joins those two Things together shall be saved and that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about how to be damned tonight.

And that's the second part of Mark 16 16. So Jesus says that you must believe and be baptized now. Matt says he reads it like this. With many other denominational preachers that he that believeth is saved and then later baptized.

But that contradicts clear teachings of the Messiah. So again, I would pray that you would obey what Jesus says in Mark chapter. I mean Acts chapter 2 verse 10 the latter part of Acts 2 10 it says the strangers from Rome so Matt's going to use a lot of these books written to members of the Church of Christ.

Like the book of Romans and Ephesians and in many people don't understand where they were converted at. So in Acts chapter 2 the latter part of that it says the strangers from Rome were there in Acts 2 21 Peter's preaching to them and he tells them in 2 21 It shall come to pass that whoso whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So he tells them you've got a call in the name of the Lord. Then he preaches Jesus to him now calling up on the name of the Lord. May need further Explanation of what that is. What is calling upon the name of the Lord because in Matthew 7 21 It says not everyone that saith unto me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

So just because you go Lord Lord, does it mean you're going to enter the kingdom of heaven and Jesus says but he that doeth. You know what? I've learned to denominational preachers. They hate that word doeth or do they they don't want to do anything.

But he says doeth the will of my father which is in heaven so we understand that calling a verbal call is not what it's talking about in Acts 2 21 because in Acts 2 37 when they heard this they were pricked in their heart that means they were sincere and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the Apostles men and brethren, what shall we do?

There's that we could say a bad word again. But they said what shall we do and they already believe. Now one of his arguments his belief isn't in there. But he tells them to repent and be baptized. Of course, they believed and later on in Acts 2 44 I believe they said they believed and so therefore they heard they believed they repented and Were baptized.

For what reason were they baptized in what name they says? Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ now other denominational people says you have to verbally say the name. That's not what that's talking about.

We see in Acts chapter 4. That's talking about the authority of Jesus Christ. You need to repent and be baptized in the name referring to in the authority of Jesus Christ. For what reason Peter it is for the remission of sins.

That is where your sins are going to be washed away. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and later on in Matthew 26 28 The Bible says for this is my blood of the New Testament. Which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You've got the same Layout in the sentence there for the remission of sins. Matthew 26 28 and Acts 2 38 is for the remission of sins and we understand that Jesus shed his blood in order to have sins removed just like we are supposed to repent and be baptized for their mission of sins.

In Acts 22 16 is one of the most clearest verses out there were Ananias. He told Saul to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins. What does that mean? Calling upon the name of the Lord just like Acts chapter 2 if you want to call upon the name of the Lord the way the Bible teaches it is being baptized.

To wash to have your sins washed away and we understand to there's nothing special in the water. I don't want to be misrepresented. No Christian out there would ever teach there anything special in the water that actually can remove the sin of a person.

But it's actually the blood of Jesus in Revelation 1 5 the later part of that it says and washed us from our sins in his own blood. And so therefore when we were baptized we're Coming in contact with the blood of Jesus and you can go to the Old Testament to and find examples Of name and he had to dip seven times in the Jordan to to be cured.

And so it really comes down to an obedient faith. And that's what the Bible teaches that we must have an obedient faith not a works-based system. And that's what we will talk about in Romans chapter 4 in Galatians that that you must do a checklist system but it's to do these things that God requires by faith and that's actually how the Old Testament was supposed to be set up and These Jews turned it into a work system.

You could work your way to heaven if you did all of these things that Were in the law then you could be justified before God and and didn't have to do them by faith. That's kind of the dealing we'll get into Romans, but acts 22 16 very clear Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling upon the name of the Lord and that's what I teach.

Very clear scriptures upon that and also Galatians chapter 3 verses 26 through 27. It says for you are all the children of God by faith. What kind of faith is that Paul? Is it a dead faith? Is it a faith that basically we talk about in James?

That is a well learned maybe how you define it is a sentient is that where you just mentally believe. Is that what kind of faith or is that a obedient faith Paul? Well, he tells us he says you're all the children of God by faith for as many of you have been baptized Into Christ you've put on Christ well, basically People who teach that you don't have to be baptized are saying that you you can be saved without even being in Christ or putting On Christ or clothing yourself with Christ and we know clear that teachings there that we must be baptized into Christ and we know according to the scriptures that That grace is in Christ and all spiritual blessings are in Christ.

So we must be baptized into Christ. That's second Timothy 2 1 that grace is located in Christ. I Have about a minute and a half Romans chapter 6 verses 3 through 7 I don't have a lot of time to go through all of those verses.

But those are very clear teachings how we're baptized Into the death of Christ where the blood of Jesus is and you remember what came out when they pierced Jesus aside Blood and water so it's where you contact the precious blood is in the water you graves of baptism and along with Hebrews 5 9 Hebrews 5 9 is very clear In being made perfect.

He became the author of eternal salvation. Unto all them that obey him obedience is required friends. And that's what clear what the New Testament the Bible teaches and we see that again mentioned in first Peter Verse 22 Chapter 1 seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit Unto an unfringed love of the brother and say that you love one another with a pure heart.

So obeying the truth. I Have about 10 seconds, but we'll get into more discussion about this in our Q &A in my rebuttal. Thank you for your time. And again, thanks. Thank you Matt for having me on your show.

I don't think I said that.

Sure, no problem. Thanks for coming. Appreciate it. All right. I'm gonna respond. It's gonna be quick because ten minutes doesn't give us enough time to unpack a lot of this stuff. So Here we go. Ten ten and then we're gonna do five and five.

Oh, okay. Okay. All right. So the debate title is the bait topic is very clear is water. Water baptism by immersion necessary for salvation. What he did right away was say it doesn't apply to children.

Well, that's not the debate topic. The debate topic is is water baptism by immersion necessary for salvation if it's necessary for salvation. Then you can't have children being saved. You cannot have people who are in their deathbeds and I've used to work at a hospital and I have seen this occur.

Tubes in their mouths the whole bit. They cannot move. They cannot be transferred. I used to work at a hospital transferring people. They cannot be transferred. I talked to the chaplain used to go to my church and I said do people receive Christ on their deathbeds.

He says yes, they do and They can't get baptized because his position is you got to be baptized by water in Immersion in order to be saved that means then that anybody who trusts in Christ on the deathbed.

By faith receives Christ by faith confesses his sins and doesn't get dunked in water. Goes to hell which would mean that what the hell when they die, which would mean that he does not teach Justification by faith in Christ, but by faith.

And a ceremony and yes, it is a ceremony just look up ceremony look up ritual and you'll find out that the dictionaries clearly tell us a Ritual a ceremony is something that you do in a religious context that is repeated and has a pattern to it.

That's exactly what a ceremony is. Baptism is that way communion is that way marriage is that way? So say what a baptism is not a ceremony is just it's a meaningless statement. It absolutely is a ceremony and he went to first Peter 321.

And by saying it's not a religious ceremony there, but that's not what the context is now you'll notice if you do an examination on what first Peter 321 is it says it says anti to pawn in the Greek and Corresponding to that corresponding to what?

What was it that baptism then relates to the previous verse was Noah and the ark? And I don't have time to get into it dutifully, but what saved Noah it was not the water. It was the ark the ark by which he entered into by faith and he was justified by faith.

That's why Peter says and baptism now saves you corresponding to that baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh. But an appeal he tells you what that baptism is. It's a faithful appeal to God.

He went to Mark 16 16. That's very unfortunate. He should not do that in apologetic discussions on baptism. Mark 16 9 through 20 is not found in a lot of the oldest manuscripts. It has 17 new words that occur in at 11 those 11 verses that never occur in the entire New Testament.

Or it could be an entire book of God of Mark and they occur suddenly right there 17 new words. And there's an error there in that pericope of Scripture in verse 12, which says Jesus appeared in a different form.

He did not appear in a different form. He appeared in the same body. He died in though glorified body you go to first Corinthians 15 35 to 45 and plus I've got articles written on this. But I do defend that the reliability of the scriptures.

That's just a it's just a textual issue that we've got to deal with mark 16 16. It's just a fact and so it's not a great place for him to go. But it says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

That's true. He who believes and goes to church will be saved. He who believes and reads the Bible will be saved. It doesn't mean that belief and about reading the Bible is what saves you or belief and going to church is what saves you.

This is why even in Mark 16 16 it says but he does not believe will be damned. The issue is unbelief not an issue of baptism. Matthew 7 21 not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter in the kingdom of heaven.

But he who does the will of my father in heaven and he says many will say to him in that day Lord Lord. Do you have to do the will of the Father or the will of God now? Here's the question I'm gonna be asking him you can get ready for this.

What are the things you got to do? What are the commands you have to obey in order to be saved? We'll get into that later. X 2 37 38. He has read a little bit of what I've said on that X 238 is not a baptismal formula and we know it for two distinct reasons.

One the word faith belief. Pistis is not there in the Greek knows it implied. Maybe but it X 238 is not a baptismal. I miss me a salvation formula because faith is not mentioned if someone wants to say it's necessary.

Well, then why or that is a baptismal formula then why is faith not mentioned? Furthermore it says when you get baptized then you will receive the Holy Spirit the gift of the Holy Spirit. The phrase received the gift of the Holy Spirit is applied to the people in Acts 10 44 to 48.

Where they are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they're baptized. Here in X 238. It's after but in X 10 44 to 48 It is before they get baptized of he wants.

Travis wants to tell me that they're speaking in tongues and glorifying God in Acts chapter 10 verses 40 to 44 to 48. They received the Holy Spirit just as the disciples at it says the Apostles had that these people are still in a state of eternal Damnation in that state because they haven't been dunked in water yet.

Well, then that'd be something for him to do later on if he can do that I'll just jump ahead. Don't know much time. I got left. Matthew 22 or assuming acts 22 16. Paul always talked there about what stand up go get baptized wash away your sins calling.

Upon the name of the Lord the washing of the sins is done by the confession of faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Baptism is simply a covenantal sign that the Christians go through and they participate in.

I can get a lot into that. We don't have time for it. How much time we got left. Charlie just keep hold up your hand and tell me. So I'm not really fast roughly five minutes four minutes three minutes.

Three minutes hold up your not your hand in front four minutes. Thank you. So in Galatians 327 a lot of people make a mistake about this. They do not understand what the context is of it. Travis should pay attention to this.

He should have read the article I wrote on this when it talks about clothing yourself with Christ. It's talking about the ancient cultural methodology of a slave who is Rised to the master level inside the house not that he was a master of the household.

But he was in a high area of authority and he was a tutor. To the children in that household because the owner the master of that house a true master Trusted him when the people they grew to a level of maturity in their tutoring.

They were then given a robe. They were given a robe. Signifying their authority that he had graduated. This is why it says the law is a Tutor because that man in the house was a tutor. The law is a tutor that leads you to Christ.

Therefore baptism is a sign of being transferred from the keeping of the law to living in union with Christ. But he says you've got to be baptized yet to obey Christ. That's obedience. That's law. You got to do these things to keep yourself right with God.

He showed he's still under the law this requirement Romans 6 3 through 7 and he talked about that. But we don't have time to go through all that. We've been buried with him through baptism in death. So that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father.

The problem here is that he just reads that doesn't go to verse 6 doesn't go to verse 8. We're crucified with Christ. Romans 6 8 we died with Christ Romans 6 6. How could that happen? You see if we're buried with him in baptism?

Whoa, wait, wait. Notice the three things crucified death and baptism. All of these happened with Christ because we were in Christ in Christ as a signification of federal headship and representation. So we could make the case I could make the case that the baptism that we're talking about is the baptism that Jesus himself went To true not our baptism because Jesus was the one who was crucified and we were crucified when he was crucified.

Jesus is one who died and we died when he died on the cross. This is what the context is. It is really worth reading we can get into it some other time. Now I've gone through this very very quickly. We can go through a lot more.

Here's the thing. There are questions that have to be asked. Maybe he'll answer this question. Because when we get into the next section here, we do a cross-examination. I'm gonna do a lot of repetition here.

Here's the thing. The Bible says in Romans 3 28 that we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law by faith apart from any works because we also know that Paul says Romans 4 5 to the one who Does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith as credit as righteousness notice what it says faith.

But not works no work. Now. He's gonna say baptisms on a work. It's a ceremony. Okay, it's something you do and you had to perform in order to get the righteousness of God applied to you. There's something you got to do some legalistic thing.

You got to do something. You got to go through a ceremony. You got to do otherwise. You can't go to heaven. It's a New Testament work that he's requiring. But Paul says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law now.

That's the Old Testament. But baptism was part of the Old Testament law of requirement and I can show you how Jesus was baptized. And he was sprinkled according to the law, which is really interesting because the arguments about immersion, but that's a side note now.

If the law is required then we have something we have to do to be saved and therefore we're not justified by faith. So here's a question That he should answer. Is it the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith or is it not the case that we're justified by faith when we Have faith if the Bible says we're justified by faith.

Then we're justified by faith when we have faith. But not so with Travis what he says is you justify by faith? When you get baptized, so in other words when you have faith, you're not saved. You're not justified by faith.

You're justified by faith and a ceremony a faith by faith. That's something you do later on. So he's denying the essential property of the gospel of justification by faith. We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3 28. Romans 4 or 5 says we may it says to the one who does not work, but believes. His faith is credited him as righteousness. Belief is the issue. Belief is the thing we're justified by faith.

How much time we got left Charlie. We're out we're we're done. Okay. Sorry. Okay, we're done.

Go ahead five minutes. Get my clock going to all right. Five minutes is half the time. Ten minutes. So very quickly. Oh. We go back watch it take notes. Notice Matt brought up about stories about working in the hospital.

We're here to see what the Bible says not too long ago. There was a gentleman who wanted to obey the gospel Romans chapter 6 and he was in a nursing home and and I Helped him obey the gospel by Baptizing him into Christ and he was very ill.

And so also to we know 2nd Corinthians 6 2 says today is the day of salvation. That's why I get my phone phone number out there. You can wait till you're on your deathbed or maybe in a coma where you can't even do what Matt? Said that you have to do you go back and listen to him.

Matt said that if you're confessing your sins. A person must do that. Well, I want to see one person in in the New Testament that confessed their sins initially for salvation. I'd like to hold Matt to that since he proclaimed that in the speech he gave in the 10 minutes mark 16.

Mark chapter 16 9 through 20. He used an argument that that's not found in the manuscripts or in some of the manuscripts but again when you when you do that and what he's doing is putting a Doubt a cloud of doubt on the Word of God in 1st Peter Chapter 1 it talks about how the Word of God is going to endure forever.

So I believe we have the New Testament and and I believe God is powerful enough to preserve his word. On what he said about that and being justified by faith. As he needs to explain what kind of faith because when he was debating Scott and you and I'll put it on my YouTube.

He says at 37 minutes minutes that and I can play it too that true faith. Results in something and so he also explains what a censure is. Which is just believing and and Matt doesn't believe in an essential faith as saving and so James chapter 2.

What time I've got we can look at what Justifies us because we're justified by faith. We're also justified by the grace of God and in James chapter 2. We're justified by works in James chapter 2 verse 14.

It says what doth it profit my brother though a man say he have faith and not works can that faith save him? Now that's the question. Can you have a dead faith? Can that faith save you if you don't have any works and James goes through and he answers it in verse 17.

Even so faith if it hath not works is dead being alone. And then he goes and uses the example of Abraham in verse 21 and was not Abraham our father Justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac upon the altar in Genesis chapter 22 verse 12.

It tells of the account of Abraham offering up his son Isaac because watch what denominational preachers do they'll say that in James is trying to say that you're justified before men, but there was no body standing around between Abraham and his son Isaac and it says in verse 16 I mean verse 12 of 22 about how God knew his faith.

That's who you need to be justified. Don't worry about men and in James 2 24 the only time because Matt 2 he's in a bind now I got him in a pickle as we would understand as we would define it because now he says you've got to confess your sins.

As he did earlier. He just said that and now he's saying to that You're saved by faith alone and grace alone and Christ alone but in James 2 24 The Bible says you see Then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only the only time that you'll find faith only is in the negative the inspired writer James says you're not saved by faith only and It's sad and I think Matt isn't I mean before we started this we were You know just cutting up having a good time and but I love his soul, but the doctrine he teaches is awful Calvinist doctrine I don't even understand why they would even have a radio program if you Believe that you have to be one of the elect and God would choose you no matter what very quickly I hope I have the time for this illustration here about what Calvinist teach.

Let's say you have four children. These four children have all broken God's law. They've seen well Calvinist teach that maybe these two right here are going to go to heaven and these two are going to go to hell and it Doesn't matter if these two are going to go to heaven says I love you God.

I want to serve you God I want to obey what you say. Nope, you're gonna go to hell. What kind of God is that when the God of the Bible teaches that all four children have sinned they broke God's law and yet God Says look This is what you need to do to go to heaven and you have to over here that says, okay.

I love you God I'm gonna serve you these two do not they're lost. That's five minutes. Man, that's quick. You hear me? Yeah, I hear you, okay. You were on mute. I thought I'm muted. I thought I went through all that and it was muted.

Oh.

That'd been great and perfect. But no, I would have told you okay. Okay, there you go. Okay, here goes. Let me start this over again the five minutes that I was talking. All right. Here we go. Sorry about that.

The reason I brought up the story of the person being justified by faith in the hospital bed is because it really does happen. To say we're not going to look at a situation that might be difficult for us doesn't mean that the situation Goes away or isn't a real situation.

You see he has a theory. What I'm doing is testing the theory in real time. Let's see what it says if he's going to say that you have to be baptized by immersion in water. Well, then children go to hell and people who die in their deathbeds who can't get baptized also go to hell remember.

It's necessary for salvation. Water baptism is necessary. There's no qualification that it can't doesn't mean children. Okay, doesn't there's no disqualification for that. He just added that later in later on.

He should have clarified that but nevertheless. So what do you do with someone who does trust in Christ on their deathbed? Really does believe and really does. I know what happens. So let's test what he says and the person Believes right there now.

He said he kind of get on this. He said well today is a day of salvation. Yeah, that's the day of salvation for the person. It does happen. I'd have worked in hospitals and I have seen this happen. Well one hospital and I've seen I know this kind of thing happens.

So he refused to answer the question. I believe the question is too difficult for him to answer. If he says a person goes to hell then he's saying that we're not Justified by faith if he says that but person has to get baptized to be saved.

He loses that way too. You see the problem. Dismissal means it's a problem for you now regarding being justified by faith. He says I need to explain what kind of faith. Well, anybody knows what I teach.

I don't teach a sensual. I teach fiducia. Essentia is what I've talked about in Romans James chapter 2 verses 14 Roughly through 22 and he tried to get into it. But he said that you had to be justified and that justification by faith.

The implication of alone is spoken of negatively there. But what he completely fails to understand this is profoundly difficult is that The kind of faith that was spoken of there is a false faith not a real faith and it's justification before people.

Not before God because what happens is in James 2 18 it says. Says I will show you my faith by my works. I will you show me your faith by your works. What he's talking about. Here's the horizontal. It's not the vertical justification before God.

That's Romans 4 1 through 7 what we have here in James 2 14 through 26 is the horizontal you show me your faith by your works. I will show you mine by my works and that's what the justification is before people not before God.

Because you can say you have faith. Let's see the manifestation of it. But it's not those works that justify us because Romans 3 28 Romans 4 5 Galatians 2 16 Galatians 2 21 Clearly teaches that no works at all.

It's by faith alone and notice he did not answer the question Are we justified by faith when we have faith or is it not the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith. You see the problem now I've got in there and I talked about this issue of James chapter 2 and I really think he needs to study this because and read an article I've got on karma about it where I go through and lay it out and talks about James 2 19.

Do you believe in God you do? Well, the devil believes also the demons believe also it's called essential. It's false faith. How do you know what faith is real by what you do? It's not the doing that makes you right before God it's the faith that makes you right before God and that is concomitant with the issue of belief.

Now he mentioned Calvinism and this is not a debate on Calvinism, but because he so badly Misrepresented the Calvinist position I could I'd be glad to teach what Calvinism really teaches because he like so many anti Calvinists Don't know what we teach and the evidence of it is saying people love God and then they go to hell because God didn't Pick them.

That's not how it works. That's not what we Calvinist teach. We do not teach that and I can get into that I can teach all On Calvinism for four days. So he has failed to answer the serious questions. He dismissed the issue of a person dying.

Excuse me Receiving Christ on a deathbed by faith wants to be believe in Christ and can't go to heaven. Because he doesn't get baptized right by immersion in water. He didn't address that issue. He just dismissed it he failed to understand the proper context of James chapter 2 and the issue of what The obedience is a part of and to show and the works are to show true faith not false faith.

It's justification before people not before God. He failed that and this is a side note. But he really does not understand Calvinism. I'd strongly recommend Travis. You don't attack it. You do not know what you're talking about.

No disrespect meant, but you don't understand what it is. You're criticizing there. We could have a discussion some other time and talk about that if you want. I'm out of time. There you go now. So what we're gonna do now is Can you hear me?

Yes. Okay. So now we're gonna have a discussion, right? So you can either ask me questions and I got to respond you asked me a question. I can respond for two minutes and then you can respond for one we talked about this and we go back and forth this way or They could we could save that for the questions the Q &A at the end the people or what we can do Is just have a discussion.

It's up to you. What do you want to do?

Well, I think we would probably be good if we just do question and answers. That way we try to keep it somewhat organized and we don't get all too excited and try to talk over each other. I'll be polite I'll be a gentleman if you got a.

If you got a question you can go and uh.

Sure, we can go through these. I got a lot of questions. Okay. Here you go. You ready? I got a question for you. Are we justified by faith when we have faith or we not justified by faith when you have faith?

To answer that question. It's kind of like what he mentioned about what type of faith. Well, Matt has already explained that faith is in categories and he mentioned mentioned since your faith is just.