Baptism Debate: Matt Slick vs. Travis Thomas from the Church of Christ

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All right, everybody, welcome. This is Matt Slick from CARM .org, and with me

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I have Travis Thomas, which I didn't know which was his first name or second name, but here we go.

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And so we're going to be debating tonight a specific topic. He'll introduce himself in a little bit.

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The specific topic is, is water baptism by immersion necessary for salvation?

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He's taking the affirmative, so therefore he's going to go first. I take the negative, and I'll be responding to him.

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And we're going to go through 10 -minute opening, 10 -minute response, 5 -minute response, 5 -minute response, and then we're going to have a kind of a back -and -forth discussion time, and then we'll open up to questions from people if they want to do that.

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I think that's... And if Travis wants to change that along the way, I'm fine with that. I'm really casual about things like that, so not a problem.

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You guys know who I am, and Matt Slick from CARM .org. All right,

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Travis, you want to introduce yourself? My name is Travis Thomas. I'm just a Christian, a member of the

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Church of Christ. Of course, the church belongs to Jesus, so I'm nothing special. I don't carry any kind of title as a reverend or pastor or anything like that.

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I'm just a Christian. That's pretty much it. I live in Tennessee area.

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I do have a YouTube channel. If you watch this and you want to learn more about what the

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Bible teaches, you can go to Travis Preaches Truth on YouTube, or you can even call me.

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My number is 931 -267 -9095, and I do put my own personal phone number out there on the web because I believe if you're sincere and you're wanting to know the truth, give me a call.

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We can discuss if you have an open heart and open mind. Well, thank you very much,

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Travis. And of course, I don't give my personal number out because people try to kill me.

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They follow me. And so I've been swatted and death threats and the whole bit.

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So all right. If you guys want, go for it.

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You can. You ready to open? Just go for it. Yeah. We'll give you 10 minutes. That's up to you.

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Okay. Or if you want to go a little over, that's fine. All right. All right. I'm going to go ahead and start my 10 minutes.

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Again, I already did my introduction, but I'm doing this for two main reasons. Jude 3 is to contend earnestly for the faith.

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I love Matt's soul, but I believe he is a heretic and teaches false doctrine. As he said earlier, but you didn't hear it, that we can conduct ourselves in a cordial manner and be nice to one another, but he is teaching false doctrine.

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So Jude 3 is to contend for the faith and Mark 16 verse 15 is to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

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So if you're viewing this again, I already gave out my personal information. I have 10 minutes to affirm what

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I am teaching, what I believe to be truth. Let's see here.

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And that is I'm affirming that the scriptures teach that a lost person must be water baptized to be saved.

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We're going to have a question and answer, but a lost person must be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

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This does not include children, infants. They are not lost. And so they are not in this category.

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I do believe that you must have faith. You must hear the word of God. You must repent. You must confess those things.

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But this is a discussion about water baptism. Water baptism really hangs up a lot of people in the denominational world, and it's one of the most simplest things that the

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Bible teaches that's required. It is not a ceremony as Matt puts out on some of his videos.

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By his definition, even preaching the gospel could be a religious ceremony. In 1 Peter 3 .21,

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Peter is talking to Jews there and he says not the removal of the filth of the flesh. So he's telling these

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Jews that it's not a religious ceremony in that one verse there.

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Also, we see in Mark 16 .16, and when I put this on my YouTube channel, of course,

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Matt would say the same thing is get your Bibles out. I wish the screens would have the scriptures up on there because in Mark 16 .16,

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Jesus says he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned.

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So even Jesus says he that believeth and is baptized, the and there, we understand that joins those two things together, shall be saved.

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And that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about how to be damned tonight. And that's the second part of Mark 16 .16.

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So Jesus says that you must believe and be baptized. Now, Matt says he reads it like this with many other denominational preachers that he that believeth is saved and then later baptized.

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But that contradicts clear teachings of the Messiah. So again, I would pray that you would obey what

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Jesus says. In Acts 2 .10, the latter part of Acts 2 .10,

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it says the strangers from Rome. So Matt's going to use a lot of these books written to members of the church of Christ, like the book of Romans and Ephesians.

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And many people don't understand where they were converted at. So in Acts 2 .10, the latter part of that, it says the strangers from Rome were there.

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In Acts 2 .21, Peter's preaching to them and he tells them in 2 .21, it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the

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Lord shall be saved. So he tells them, you've got to call on the name of the Lord. Then he preaches

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Jesus to them. Now, calling upon the name of the Lord may need further explanation of what that is.

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What is calling upon the name of the Lord? Because in Matthew 7 .21, it says, not everyone that saith unto me,

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Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. So just because you go, Lord, Lord, doesn't mean you're going to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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And Jesus says, but he that doeth. You know what I've learned to denominational preachers, they hate that word doeth or do.

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They don't want to do anything. But he says, doeth the will of my father, which is in heaven.

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So we understand that calling a verbal call is not what it's talking about in Acts 2 .21.

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Because in Acts 2 .37, when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart. That means they were sincere.

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And they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do?

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There's that we could say a bad word again, but they said, what shall we do? And they already believe.

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Now, one of his arguments, his belief isn't in there, but he tells them to repent and be baptized. Of course, they believed.

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And later on in Acts 2 .44, I believe they said they believed. And so therefore, they heard, they believed, they repented and were baptized.

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For what reason were they baptized? In what name? They says be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

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Now, other denominational people says you have to verbally say the name. That's not what that's talking about.

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We see in Acts chapter four, that's talking about the authority of Jesus Christ. You need to repent and be baptized in the name, referring to in the authority of Jesus Christ.

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For what reason, Peter? It is for the remission of sins. That is where your sins are going to be washed away.

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And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And later on in Matthew 26 .28, the

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Bible says, for this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

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You've got the same layout in the sentence there for the remission of sins.

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Matthew 26 .28 and Acts 2 .38 is for the remission of sins. And we understand that Jesus shed his blood in order to have sins removed, just like we are supposed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

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And Acts 22 .16 is one of the most clearest verses out there where Ananias, he told

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Saul to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins.

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What does that mean? Calling upon the name of the Lord, just like Acts chapter two. If you want to call upon the name of the

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Lord the way the Bible teaches, it is being baptized to have your sins washed away.

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And we understand too, there's nothing special in the water. I don't want to be misrepresented. No Christian out there would ever teach there anything special in the water that actually can remove the sin of a person.

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But it's actually the blood of Jesus. In Revelation 1 .5, the later part of that, it says, "...and

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washed us from our sins in his own blood." And so therefore, when we are baptized, we are coming in contact with the blood of Jesus.

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And you can go to the Old Testament too and find examples of Naaman. He had to dip seven times in the

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Jordan to be cured. And so it really comes down to an obedient faith.

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And that's what the Bible teaches, that we must have an obedient faith. Not a works -based system.

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And that's what we will talk about in Romans chapter four in Galatians, that you must do a checklist system.

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But it's to do these things that God requires by faith. And that's actually how the Old Testament was supposed to be set up.

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And these Jews turned it into a work system. You could work your way to heaven. If you did all of these things that were in the law, then you could be justified before God.

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And didn't even have to do them by faith. That's kind of the dealing we'll get into in Romans. But Acts 22, 16, very clear.

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Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling upon the name of the Lord. And that's what

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I teach. Very clear scriptures upon that. And also Galatians chapter three, verses 26 through 27.

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It says, "...for you are all the children of God by faith." What kind of faith is that, Paul?

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Is it a dead faith? Is it a faith that basically we talk about in James? That is a, well,

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I learned maybe how you define it. Is it ascension? Is that where you just mentally believe?

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Is that what kind of faith? Or is that an obedient faith, Paul? Well, he tells us.

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He says, "...you're all the children of God by faith. For as many of you have been baptized into Christ, you've put on Christ."

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Well, basically, people who teach that you don't have to be baptized are saying that you can be saved without even being in Christ or putting on Christ or clothing yourself with Christ.

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And we know clear teachings there that we must be baptized into Christ. And we know according to the scriptures that grace is in Christ and that all spiritual blessings are in Christ.

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So we must be baptized into Christ. That's 2

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Timothy 2, 1, that grace is located in Christ. I have about a minute and a half.

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Romans 6, verses 3 through 7. I don't have a lot of time to go through all of those verses, but those are very clear teachings of how we're baptized into the death of Christ, where the blood of Jesus is.

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And you remember what came out when they pierced Jesus' side? Blood and water. So it's where you contact the precious blood is in the watery graves of baptism.

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And along with Hebrews 5, 9. Hebrews 5, 9 is very clear.

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In being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

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Obedience is required, friends. And that's clear what the New Testament and the

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Bible teaches. And we see that again mentioned in 1 Peter, verse 22, chapter 1.

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Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto an unfringed love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart.

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So obeying the truth. I have about 10 seconds, but we'll get into more discussion about this in our

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Q &A in my rebuttal. Thank you for your time. And again, thank you, Matt, for having me on your show.

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I don't think I said that. Sure, no problem. Thanks for coming. I appreciate it.

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All right, I'm gonna respond. It's gonna be quick because 10 minutes doesn't give us enough time to unpack a lot of this stuff.

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So here we go. Now you got five minutes or 10? 10, 10, and then we're gonna do five and five.

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Oh, okay. Okay, all right. So the debate title is, the debate topic is very clear.

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Is water baptism by immersion necessary for salvation? What he did right away was say, it doesn't apply to children.

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Well, that's not the debate topic. The debate topic is, is water baptism by immersion necessary for salvation?

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If it's necessary for salvation, then you can't have children being saved. You cannot have people who are on their deathbeds. And I used to work at a hospital and I have seen this occur.

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Tubes in their mouths, the whole bit. They cannot move. They cannot be transferred. I used to work at a hospital transferring people.

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They cannot be transferred. I talked to the chaplain. He said, go to my church. And I said, do people receive Christ on their deathbeds?

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He says, yes, they do. And they can't get baptized because his position is you gotta be baptized by water in immersion in order to be saved.

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That means then that anybody who trusts in Christ on the deathbed, by faith receives

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Christ, by faith confesses his sins and doesn't get dunked in water, goes to hell.

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Which would mean that, what the hell when they die, which would mean that he does not teach justification by faith in Christ, but by faith and a ceremony.

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And yes, it is a ceremony. Just look up ceremony. Look up ritual and you'll find out that the dictionaries clearly tell us a ritual, a ceremony is something that you do in a religious context that is repeated and has a pattern to it.

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That's exactly what a ceremony is. Baptism is that way. Communion is that way. Marriage is that way. So saying water baptism is not a ceremony is just, it's a meaningless statement.

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It absolutely is a ceremony. And he went to first Peter 321 by saying it's not a religious ceremony there, but that's not what the context is.

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Now you'll notice if you do an examination on what first Peter 321 is, it says, it says

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Antetopon in the Greek. And corresponding to that, corresponding to what? What was it that baptism then relates to?

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The previous verse was Noah and the ark. And I don't have time to get into it too deeply, but what saved

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Noah? It was not the water. It was the ark. The ark by which he entered into by faith and he was justified by faith.

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That's why Peter says, and baptism now saves you corresponding to that. Baptism now saves you. Not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal.

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He tells you what that baptism is. It's a faithful appeal to God. He went to Mark 16, 16.

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That's very unfortunate that he should not do that in apologetic discussions on baptism. Mark 16, nine through 20 is not found in a lot of the oldest manuscripts.

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It has 17 new words that occur in that 11, those 11 verses that never occur in the entire

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New Testament or excuse me, in the entire book of Mark. And they occur suddenly right there.

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17 new words. And there's an error there in that pericope of scripture in verse 12, which says

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Jesus appeared in a different form. He did not appear in a different form. He appeared in the same body he died in, the glorified body.

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You go to first Corinthians 15, 35 through 45. And plus I've got articles written on this, but I do defend the reliability of the scriptures.

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That's just a, it's just a textual issue that we've got to deal with. Mark 16, 16, it's just a fact. And so it's not a great place for him to go, but it says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

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That's true. He who believes and goes to church will be saved. He who believes and reads the Bible will be saved.

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It doesn't mean that belief and about reading the Bible is what saves you or belief in going to church is what saves you.

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This is why even in Mark 16, 16, it says, but he who does not believe will be damned. The issue is unbelief, not an issue of baptism.

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Matthew 7, 21, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father in heaven.

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And he says, many will say to him in that day, Lord, Lord. Do you have to do the will of the father or the will of God? Now, here's the question

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I'm going to be asking him. He can get ready for this. What are the things you got to do? What are the commands you have to obey in order to be saved?

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We'll get into that later. Acts 2, 37, 38. He has read a little bit of what

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I've said on that. Acts 2, 38 is not a baptismal formula. And we know it for two distinct reasons.

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One, the word faith, belief, pistis, is not there in the Greek. Now, is it implied? Maybe. But Acts 2, 38 is not a baptismal, excuse me, a salvation formula because faith is not mentioned.

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If someone wants to say it's necessary, well then why, or that is a baptismal formula, then why is faith not mentioned?

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Furthermore, it says, when you get baptized, then you will receive the Holy Spirit, the gift of the Holy Spirit. The phrase receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit is applied to the people in Acts 10, 44 through 48, where they are baptized and receive the

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Holy, excuse me, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit before they're baptized. Here in Acts 2, 38, it's after, but in Acts 10, 44 through 48, it is before they get baptized.

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Now, if he wants, Travis wants to tell me that they're speaking in tongues and glorifying God in Acts chapter 10, verses 44 through 48, they receive the

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Holy Spirit just as the disciples, just as the apostles said, that these people are still in a state of eternal damnation.

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In that state, because they haven't been dunked in water yet well then that'd be something for him to do later on if he can do that.

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I'll just jump ahead, don't know how much time I got left. Matthew 22, or excuse me, Acts 22, 16. Paul was talking there about stand up, go get baptized, wash away your sins, calling upon the name of the

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Lord. The washing of the sins is done by the confession of faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

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Baptism is simply a covenantal sign that the Christians go through and they participate in. I can get a lot into that, we don't have time for it.

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How much time we got left, Charlie? Just hold up your hand and tell me. So I'll know really fast, roughly five minutes, four minutes, three minutes, three minutes.

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Hold up your hand in front, four minutes, thank you. So in Galatians 3, 27, a lot of people make a mistake about this.

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They do not understand what the context is of it. Travis should pay attention to this. He should have read the article

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I wrote on this. When it talks about clothing yourself with Christ, it's talking about the ancient cultural methodology of a slave who was raised to the master level inside the house.

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Not that he was a master of the household, but he was in a high area of authority. And he was a tutor to the children in that household because the owner, the master of that house, the true master, trusted him.

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When the people, they grew to a level of maturity in their tutoring, they were then given a robe.

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They were given a robe signifying their authority that they had graduated. This is why it says the law is a tutor because that man in the house was a tutor.

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The law is a tutor that leads you to Christ. Therefore, baptism is a sign of being transferred from the keeping of the law to living in union with Christ.

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But he says, you gotta be baptized. You have to obey Christ. That's obedience, that's law.

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You gotta do these things to keep yourself right with God. He showed he's still under the law, this requirement.

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Romans 6, three through seven. And he talked about that, but we don't have time to go through all that. We've been buried with him through baptism and death.

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So that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the father. The problem here is that he just reads that and doesn't go to verse six, doesn't go to verse eight.

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We're crucified with Christ, Romans 6, eight. We died with Christ, Romans 6, six. How could that happen?

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You see, if we're buried with him in baptism, whoa, wait, wait. Notice the three things, crucified, death, and baptism.

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All of these happened with Christ because we were in Christ. In Christ is a signification of federal headship and representation.

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So we could make the case, I could make the case that the baptism that we're talking about is the baptism that Jesus himself went through, not our baptism.

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Because Jesus was the one who was crucified and we were crucified when he was crucified. Jesus is the one who died and we died when he died on the cross.

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This is what the context is and it's really worth reading. We can get into it some other time. Now, I've gone through this very, very quickly.

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We can go through a lot more. Here's the thing. There are questions that have to be asked. Maybe he'll answer this question because when we get into the next section here, we do a cross -examination.

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We do a lot of repetition here. Now, here's the thing. The Bible says in Romans 3 .28 that we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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By faith apart from any works because we also know that Paul says in Romans 4 .5, to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

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Notice what it says. Faith but not works, no works. Now, he's gonna say baptism's not a work.

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It's a ceremony, okay? It's something you do and you have to perform in order to get the righteousness of God applied to you. There's something you gotta do, some legalistic thing you gotta do, something you gotta go through a ceremony you gotta do, otherwise you can't go to heaven.

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It's a New Testament work that he's requiring. But Paul says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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Now, that's the Old Testament, but baptism was part of the Old Testament law of requirement. And I can show you how

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Jesus was baptized and he was sprinkled according to the law, which is really interesting because the argument's about immersion, but that's a side note.

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Now, if the law is required, then we have something we have to do to be saved and therefore we're not justified by faith.

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So here's a question that he should answer. Is it the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith?

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Or is it not the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith? If the Bible says we're justified by faith, then we're justified by faith when we have faith, but not so with Travis.

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What he says is you're justified by faith when you get baptized. So in other words, when you have faith, you're not saved.

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You're not justified by faith. You're justified by faith in a ceremony, a faith by faith in something you do later on.

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So he's denying the essential property of the gospel of justification by faith. We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law,

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Romans 3, 28. Romans 4, 5 says, to the one who does not work but believes, his faith is credited in his righteousness.

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Belief is the issue. Belief is the thing. We're justified by faith. How much time we got left,

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Charlie? We're out? We're done. Okay, sorry. Okay, we're done. Go ahead.

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Five minutes. Get my clock going too. All right, five minutes is half the time, 10 minutes.

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So very quickly, we go back, watch it, take notes.

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Notice Matt brought up about stories about working in the hospital. We're here to see what the Bible says.

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Not too long ago, there was a gentleman who wanted to obey the gospel, Romans chapter six, and he was in a nursing home.

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And I helped him obey the gospel by baptizing him into Christ.

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And he was very ill. And so also too, we know 2

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Corinthians 6, 2 says, today is the day of salvation. That's why I get my phone number out there. You can wait till you're on your deathbed or maybe in a coma where you can't even do what

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Matt said that you have to do. You go back and listen to him. Matt said that if you're confessing your sins, a person must do that.

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Well, I wanna see one person in the New Testament that confessed their sins initially for salvation.

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I'd like to hold Matt to that since he proclaimed that in the speech he gave in the 10 minutes.

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Mark 16, Mark chapter 16, nine through 20, he used an argument that that's not found in the manuscripts or in some of the manuscripts.

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But again, when you do that, and what he's doing is putting a doubt, a cloud of doubt on the word of God.

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In 1 Peter chapter one, it talks about how the word of God is gonna endure forever. So I believe we have the

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New Testament and I believe God is powerful enough to preserve his word on what he said about that.

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And being justified by faith, as he needs to explain what kind of faith because when he was debating

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Scott, and I'll put it on my YouTube, he says at 37 minutes that, and I can play it too, that true faith results in something.

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And so he also explains what ascension is, which is just believing. And Matt doesn't believe in an ascension of faith as saving.

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And so James chapter two, what time I've got, we can look at what justifies us because we're justified by faith.

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We're also justified by the grace of God. And in James chapter two, we're justified by works.

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In James chapter two, verse 14, it says, what doth it profit my brother? Though a man say he have faith and not works, can that faith save him?

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Now that's the question. Can you have a dead faith? Can that faith save you if you don't have any works?

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And James goes through and he answers it in verse 17, even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

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And then he goes and uses the example of Abraham in verse 21. And was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son

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Isaac upon the altar? In Genesis chapter 22, verse 12, it tells of the account of Abraham offering up his son

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Isaac because watch what denominational preachers do. They'll say that in James is trying to say that you're justified before men.

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But there was nobody standing around between Abraham and his son

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Isaac. And it says in verse 16, I mean, verse 12 of 22 about how

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God knew his faith. That's who you need to be justified. Don't worry about men. And in James 2, 24, the only time, because Matt too, he's in a bind now.

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I got him in a pickle as we would define it. Because now he says, you've got to confess your sins as he did earlier.

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He just said that. And now he's saying too, that you're saved by faith alone and grace alone and Christ alone.

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But in James 2, 24, the Bible says, you see then how that by works, a man is justified and not by faith only.

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The only time that you'll find faith only is in the negative. The inspired writer

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James says, you're not saved by faith only. And it's sad. And I think

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Matt is, I mean, before we started this, we were just cutting up having a good time.

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But I love his soul. But the doctrine he teaches is awful. Calvinist doctrine. I don't even understand why they would even have a radio program if you believe that you have to be one of the elect and God would choose you no matter what.

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Very quickly, I hope I have the time for this illustration here about what Calvinists teach.

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Let's say you have four children. These four children have all broken God's law. They've sinned.

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Well, Calvinists teach that maybe these two right here are going to go to heaven and these two are going to go to hell.

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And it doesn't matter if these two are going to go to heaven and says, I love you, God. I want to serve you, God. I want to obey what you say.

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Nope, you're going to go to hell. What kind of God is that? When the God of the Bible teaches that all four children have sinned, they broke

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God's law. And yet God says, look, this is what you need to do to go to heaven. And you have two over here that says,

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OK, I love you, God. I want to serve you. These two do not. They're lost. That's five minutes. Man, that's quick.

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You hear me? Yeah, I hear you. OK. You were on mute.

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I thought I muted. I thought I went through all that and it was muted. Oh, that'd been great and perfect.

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But no, I would have told you. OK. OK, there you go.

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OK, here goes. Let me start this over again. The five minutes that I was talking. All right, here we go.

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Sorry about that. The reason I brought up the story of the person being justified by faith in the hospital bed is because it really does happen.

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To say we're not going to look at a situation that might be difficult for us doesn't mean that the situation goes away or isn't a real situation.

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You see, he has a theory. What I'm doing is testing the theory in real time. Let's see what it says.

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If he's going to say that you have to be baptized by immersion in water, well, then children go to hell and people who die in their deathbeds who can't get baptized also go to hell.

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Remember, it's necessary for salvation. Water baptism is necessary. There's no qualification that it can't doesn't mean children.

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OK, doesn't there's no disqualification for that. He just added that later in later on.

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He should have clarified that. But nevertheless, so what do you do with someone who does trust in Christ on their deathbed really does believe and really does?

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I know what happens. So let's test what he says. And the person believes right there.

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Now, he said he kind of get on this. He said, well, today is a day of salvation. Yeah, that's the day of salvation for the person.

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It does happen. I'd have worked in hospitals and I have seen this happen. Well, one hospital

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I've seen, I know this kind of thing happens. So he refused to answer the question.

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I believe the question is too difficult for him to answer. If he says a person goes to hell, then he's saying that we're not justified by faith.

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If he says the person has to get baptized to be saved, he loses that way, too. You see the problem? Dismissal means it's a problem for you.

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Now, regarding being justified by faith, he says, I need to explain what kind of faith. Well, anybody who knows what

30:45

I teach, I don't teach essential. I teach fiducia. Essential is what is talked about in Romans James, chapter two, verses 14, roughly through 22.

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And he tried to get into it, but he said that you had to be justified and that justification by faith, the implication of alone is spoken of negatively there.

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But what he completely fails to understand, this is profoundly difficult, is that the kind of faith that was spoken of there is a false faith, not a real faith.

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And it's justification before people, not before God. Because what happens is in James 2, 18, it says, it says,

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I will show you my faith by my works. I will. You show me your faith by your works. What he's talking about here is the horizontal.

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It's not the vertical justification before God. That's Romans four, one through seven. What we have here in James two, 14 through 26 is the horizontal.

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You show me your faith by your works. I will show you mine by my works. And that's what the justification is before people, not before God.

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Because you can say you have faith. Let's see the manifestation of it. But it's not those works that justify us, because Romans three, 28,

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Romans four, five, Galatians two, 16, Galatians two, 21 clearly teaches that no works at all.

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It's by faith alone. And notice he did not answer the question. Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

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Or is it not the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith? You see the problem now?

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I've got in there and I talked about this issue of James chapter two. And I really think he needs to study this and read an article

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I've got on Karma about it, where I go through and lay it out and talk about James two, 19. Do you believe in God?

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You do. Well, the devil believes also the demons believe also. It's called essential. It's false faith. How do you know what faith is real by what you do?

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It's not the doing that makes you right before God. It's the faith that makes you right before God. And that is concomitant with the issue of belief.

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Now, he mentioned Calvinism, and this is not a debate on Calvinism, but because he so badly misrepresented the

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Calvinist position, I could I'd be glad to teach what Calvinism really teaches, because he like so many anti -Calvinists don't know what we teach.

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And the evidence of it is saying people love God and then they go to hell because God didn't pick them.

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That's not how it works. That's not what we Calvinists teach. We do not teach that. And I can get into that.

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I can teach all on Calvinism for four days. So he has failed to answer the serious questions.

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He dismissed the issue of a person dying, excuse me, receiving

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Christ on a deathbed by faith, wants to believe in Christ and can't go to heaven because he doesn't get baptized by immersion in water.

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He didn't address that issue. He just dismissed it. He failed to understand the proper context of James chapter two and the issue of what the obedience is a part of and to show and the works are to show true faith, not false faith.

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It's justification before people, not before God. He failed that. And this is a side note, but he really does not understand

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Calvinism. I'd strongly recommend, Travis, you don't attack it. You do not know what you're talking about. No disrespect meant.

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But you don't understand what it is you're criticizing there. We could have a discussion some other time and talk about that.

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If you want, I'm out of time. There you go. Now.

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So what we're going to do now is. Can you hear me? Yes. OK, so now we're going to have a discussion, right?

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So you can either ask me questions and I got to respond, you can ask me a question,

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I can respond for two minutes and then you can respond for one, we talked about this and we go back and forth this way or we could we could save that for the questions, the

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Q &A at the end, the people or what we can do is just have a discussion.

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So to you, what do you want to do? Well, I think we would probably be good if we just do question and answers.

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That way, we try to keep it somewhat organized and we don't get all too excited and try to talk over each other.

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I'll be polite. I'll be a gentleman if you got it, if you got a question, you can go and.

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Sure. We can go through these. I got a lot of questions. OK, here you go. You're ready. I got a question for you.

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Are we justified by faith when we have faith or we not justified by faith? We have faith to answer that question.

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It's kind of like what he mentioned about what type of faith. Well, Matt has already explained that faith is in categories.

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And he mentioned mentioned since your faith is just maybe just believing.

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And then what was the other faith you said? Fiducia is real faith. That's what I'm talking about. Real faith. OK, OK.

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And he says that real faith. Well, he also explained when when he was discussing this with Scott, I don't remember his last name around 37 minutes.

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He says true faith results in something, something. So I believe that you're justified by faith.

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But when we define what faith is, it is believing in what God says to do to be saved and basically trusting

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God. You know, a lot of people will say trusting God, but they don't do what he says. So, yes, you're justified by faith, but not not faith alone, because then you contradict

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James and you contradict grace and you contradict the blood of Jesus. And there's other things that say, so, yes, you're justified by faith and obedient faith.

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Can I respond to that? Or do you want to go on? You didn't answer the question,

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I said, what are we justified by faith when we have faith or not justified by faith? We have faith.

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The answer is either yes or no. See, there's it's called a a dichotomy.

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It's either the case that we're justified by faith. Or it's not the case that we're justified by faith,

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OK? It's either the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith or it's not the case that we are justified by faith when we have faith.

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So which is it? OK, that is your rebuttal. But now it's my turn to ask the question.

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Oh, I mean, we can go back and forth on your question. Go ahead. Is it an obedient faith that obeys?

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Let's see here. What do you believe a person must do to be saved? And does that involve believing that Jesus raised from the dead?

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What what do you believe? Well, what I believe is what the scriptures teach, that God grants us belief,

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Philippians 129, grants us repentance, 2 Timothy 2, 25, we're caused to be born again.

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1 Peter 1, 3, we're born again, not of our own will. John 1, 13, because we've been called from the foundation of the world in Christ to be given to Christ.

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That's Ephesians 1, 4 through 5 and John 6, 37. So what must we do to be saved?

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Be a recipient of the grace of God by which he regenerates us. And because of the regenerative work of God, then we're enabled to believe, we're granted the act of believing,

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Philippians 1, 29, we're granted the act of being able to repent, 2 Timothy 2, 25.

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Our believing is the work of God. John 6, 28, 29, because we're born again, not of our own will.

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John 1, 13. So what do we do? We simply are the recipients of the grace of God and the kindness of God.

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I don't have to go get baptized to be saved, go to church to be saved. I don't have to repent to be saved.

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I'm going to explain that because a lot of people think that's OK to sin. No, if repentance is compliance with the law, the

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Bible says don't lie and you're a liar and you comply with the law, you repent, you don't lie in order to be saved, then you're being saved by compliance with the law.

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I don't believe that repentance is something we must have a result of because of the regenerative work of God.

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It is the outward manifestation of the regenerative work of God. But we're justified by faith alone in Christ alone.

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And repentance is a necessary, what's called concomitant result of the work of God's faith in us.

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So one part of my question, though, is do you have to does that involve believing that Jesus raised from the dead?

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You just went on to basically believe is the way I would understand that, believing alone, but do you have to believe the gospel?

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Do you have to believe that Jesus raised from the dead? Yeah, you do, because the gospel, first Corinthians 15, one through four.

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But you see, the question then becomes it's more complicated here. We can talk about it, because how does someone who's a slave of sin and quote you the references, a slave of sin, a hater of God can do no good, cannot receive the things of God.

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How does he believe God has to grant that? He believes Philippians one twenty nine says so.

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Then he believes that gospel. So we would say regeneration precedes faith, not temporally, but logically.

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And so he believes the gospel message. Now, is it my turn to response back then?

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Go ahead. I don't care. So yes or no, you do believe that someone has to believe the gospel.

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Someone must believe the gospel. They should believe the gospel, normatively speaking, because we might have a baby in the womb that dies, can't really believe the gospel.

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And can go to heaven, but normatively speaking, yes, that's that's that was what my question was, is explain to me that we should ask this again, with why does anyone go to hell?

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What what separates us from God? Our sin separate us from God, Isaiah fifty nine, two, and the wages of sin is death,

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Romans six, twenty three. We are by nature children of wrath. Ephesians two, three were deadener, trespasses and sins,

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Ephesians two, one. The reason people go to hell is because that's where they belong. The reason people go to heaven is because God intervened, was gracious to them, granted them repentance and faith, and they go to heaven.

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So why would babies OK, how can babies believe in the gospel and how what sin did a baby commit to even be lost because you just said that sin is why mankind is lost, what sin, because first John talks about how sin is transgression of the law.

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So what law did a baby break? First John three, four is the transgression of the law.

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And this is a more difficult question because we don't have too much information on the issue.

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I don't know if you're aware of federal headship. And in federal headship, it's that the male represents a descendants when

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Adam sinned, all people sinned and died in him. The Romans five, 18, which says through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men, all men.

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Men means men, women, everybody. And first Corinthians 15, 22 in Adam all die in Adam is a term of federal headship, the male representation that includes babies.

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So they have they are by nature children of wrath. Ephesians two, three. If any babies go to heaven, it's because God saves them and chooses to save them.

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That's why I said earlier, normatively speaking, you've got to believe. But it says in Psalm 22, nine, you did make me believe while at my mother's breast, since God grants belief, then we can we can talk about that aspect.

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But the Bible does not tell us about infants, what happens with them. So we can't go too far and explain too much.

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Yeah. To respond very quickly on that, before we move on, if it's OK, is Jesus was born of a woman.

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And so he was not born in sin. He did not sin any according to Hebrews and was tempted as all points like us.

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Um, Ezekiel 18, I believe, verse 22, it says the soul that sins shall die as you stay in Isaiah 59, one and two, it says your sins.

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It's an individual basis. We're going to be judged by what we do, not what Adam did.

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That would be what the Bible teaches on that. So that's why it's a difficult question, I believe, for you in the the doctrine, not a personal attack toward you,

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Matt, but the doctrine, you know, because I think it's simple. Babies are innocent. It's a very easy issue.

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You know, no disrespect, Matt, but you don't understand reformed theology. So do you think it's difficult?

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But it's not. I answer this question all the time. We can have a discussion on it sometime if you want. All right.

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You got a question? Yeah. Are we justified before God by our true living faith when we have true living faith or not?

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It's a very specific question. Well, I mean, you said your true living faith results in something.

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So, yeah, I mean, you're justified before God when you have a a living faith that does what

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God says to be saved. So when you when you come in contact with the blood of Jesus, by being immersed in water, you're saved by that living faith.

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That's what moves you. Go to Hebrews chapter 11. And all of those things that they've done in Hebrews chapter 11 were done by faith.

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And so that's a living faith. You described it there. So, yes, you're justified by a living faith, not a dead faith, as James talks about.

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So then are we justified by living faith when we have that faith? Because faith occurs at a moment. Remember, Philippians one twenty nine says

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God grants that we believe. So he grants a person belief. Philippians one twenty nine. You can go check it out.

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It grants it. It gives it to him. He believes it. That's it. OK, Philippians one twenty nine. It's a very important verse because God grants that we believe.

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OK, I use the New American Standard Bible. He's been granted for Christ's sake.

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Are you are you saying like he allows us and gives us free will? No, granting it to us, just like it says,

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Jesus says in John six sixty five, you cannot come to me. Let's have been granted to you from the father.

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To grant means to allow it to happen to someone to grant it. If I grant you certain rights to my home,

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I say, look, Travis, here's the key. I now grant you that access by my permission because I own it.

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You now have that. What are you saying, John? John what?

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John six sixty five. And he said, therefore said unto you that no man can come to me except it be except it were given unto him of my father.

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Mm hmm. He shows that in the book of John. Look at forty four and forty five. No man can come to me except the father which had sent me draw him and I will raise him up in the last days.

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Well, how how does God draw men to him? It is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught of God.

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It is a taught religion. That's why the Great Commission says go into all the world and preach the gospel. That's why in reality you have a radio program.

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But I mean, but you actually teach a doctrine where it's not a taught religion. But the

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Bible teaches that it is. And that's how you God draws us by teaching, preaching.

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You didn't answer the question again. And I talked about the issue of Philippians one twenty nine, because in there it's a.

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What it says, God grants, it's not the same word in John six sixty five.

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In John six sixty five, it's charisma. I mean, excuse me, did am I? All right.

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In the Greek. Now, I'm not going to pull Greek stuff. If you don't know Greek, that's not fair. But what I want you to understand is that what it is saying here is that God is the one granting that we believe he's giving it to us.

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In John six, twenty eight, twenty nine, they said, what must we do to work the works of God? This is the work of God that you believe on whom he has sent.

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And you can go to John one thirteen. We're talking about being born, being born. The context of being born again is who's received him, who are born.

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And I'll read it to you because this is so significant. John one thirteen, who were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

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You're born again issue is not of your own will. You're granted to believe and your belief is

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God's work. Now, when God does this, the question is, are you justified then or you still in a state of damnation?

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Well, first off in John six, twenty eight says, and they said to him, what shall we do?

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So they were supposed to do in the believing. If God grants it to them, then if you go to hell, then whose fault is it?

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If it's by what you're believing that grants, I mean, if God does not grant, let's say, an individual person, who's fault is it that he goes to hell?

47:49

Is it God's fault? Is that the God you serve or is it? Absolutely. Yeah, if you don't like that, just take

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Romans nine out of your Bible because Romans nine answers you perfectly. But that's another topic, too.

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But what it says here is that God grants that we believe. Philippians one twenty nine. That's what it says. So the question is, you want to say that we're justified before God by faith when we get baptized, not justified before God by faith when we have faith.

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Then you want to say, well, wait a minute. It's just you have to have real faith. I didn't say we don't have the real faith. There's real faith.

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It's the faith that God grants to us. So it's real. Are we justified by faith when God grants us that faith?

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Or are we not justified before God when God grants us that faith? In verse

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Philippians one twenty nine. Yep. For unto you, it is given on the behalf of Christ.

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Not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. So that suffering part, too, are you going to include that as God directly makes

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Christ suffer? Yes, absolutely.

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What it says. By what by what they teach and believe, right.

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But God isn't putting his finger on a Christian and making him suffer. Sure.

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You go to you can go to this is a side note. You're answering the question, but you can go to Exodus four eleven. God himself says, who makes the eye blind, the ear deaf, the tongue dumb?

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Is it not I, the Lord? But he specifically says he does that. It's another topic. The question here is this.

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Are we justified before God when God grants us faith or not? OK, how does he grant you faith?

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Explain that part. I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us how he grants it. But to be granted, as it says in Philippians or excuse me, in Proverbs twenty one one, he moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go.

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In Acts sixteen fourteen, God opened the heart of Lydia to believe, to receive the things

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Paul said. God opened their heart. God grants that we believe God works faith in us.

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We're born again, not of our own will. John one thirteen. This is what the Bible's teach. I'm quoting you the references.

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So when God grants that we have faith, when he gives faith to us, real faith, it's not fake faith that he's giving us.

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Are we justified at that moment when we have that faith in God through Christ and all that or not? Well, to answer the question now that you openly stated that you don't know how

50:24

God grants faith. When we see the example in Acts sixteen of Lydia, she heard preachers.

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And so she heard them preaching. And that's how God opened her heart. So if you say that a person is granted faith and then

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I ask how and you said you didn't know. But if it is granted as through the scriptures teach by preaching, then yeah, that God grants them faith through the gospel message.

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And those that believe obey that message. You don't understand what I mean by when I say

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I don't know how God grants it. What's the internal thing in our soul that God does?

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Does he take a drop of faith and I drop it and put it in? That's how we have that faith. It's this mechanism of how that is.

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That's the thing I was talking about. Yeah, she heard preachers. But even with the preaching of the word, she had to God had to open her heart.

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It wasn't in her own wisdom. It wasn't in her own. You want to call it free will, which I believe in free will.

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Even as a Calvinist, you still know what the biblical free will is. The thing is, if it was all that case, it was all just like that.

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It was just by the preaching of the word. And that's it. It's up to her. Then why does God have to open her heart to receive it?

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Just like in Acts chapter two, they were pricked in the heart. They heard the preaching. It's a sincere, just like the parable of the sower.

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There's different people out there with different hearts, different mind. This is your heart. And when you hear the message, you can either accept it or not.

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As the Bible teaches, God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

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That's how you access God's grace. It is a taught religion. I mean, why do you have a why do you have a radio program?

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What's the purpose of that? To bring glory to God and carry out the first Peter 315 and to hopefully equip the body of Christ and bring more of God's elect into salvation.

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Through what? Through people hearing it? Yes. And God grants. OK, that's it.

52:30

It's through the hearing, through the picture. But you're not hearing what I'm saying. And you seriously, when you talk about Calvinism, you're not displaying very much knowledge on it.

52:42

And I've been disrespectful, but I would suggest you stay away from it because you don't get it.

52:48

If you want to have a debate on Calvinism, I'd be glad to do that. But the thing is, when we talk about this issue,

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God opens their heart. That's what the Bible says. He had to open her heart.

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If it's just up to her freedom of will to be able to believe, then why is it necessary for God to open her heart to do that?

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If it's up to people's will just to believe, why does God have to grant that they believe? If it's just open for people's heart just to believe, why does

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John the Apostle say in John 1, 13, we're born again, not of our own wills? See, all these things work against what you assume about the

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Scriptures. We come back to this issue. Are we justified before God when he grants us faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, are we justified right then or not?

53:36

When it's obedient faith. You know what? Look, it's either justified by faith or not justified by faith.

53:42

You keep changing it. And I know why you change it. You change it because it doesn't fit your theological perspective.

53:48

You have to change it. You change faith. So you said there's different types of faith. You you confirm that, right?

53:55

There's different kinds of faith. There's true faith and false faith. You can go to 1 Corinthians or 2 Corinthians 7, 10 or is it 10, 7?

54:03

There's a little. There's a great faith. Yeah, there's dead faith. And so there's different types, that's what

54:11

I'm saying. There is a no, there's a live faith, obedient faith. Look what the

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Book of Romans starts with. Romans chapter one, obedient faith. It ends with obedience.

54:23

Hebrews 5, 9, as I stated in the first 10 minutes. We've been on that one for a minute.

54:30

I'm coming back to it again. OK, we can come back to it. But let's not spend the whole time on one question.

54:35

Go ahead. Ask a question. Why do you not believe

54:42

Romans 10, 9 and 10? You stated in another debate that if a person died before they confess that they would still be saved and that contradicts clear scriptures of Romans 10, 9 and 10 and Matthew 10, 32.

54:55

I do believe Romans 10, 9 and 10. And when you talk about something that I've said before, I don't know what context

55:01

I've had many debates and thousands of discussions, so I don't know what context you're talking about.

55:06

But for now, let me clarify. When it says, if you confess it to your mouth and believe in your heart, that God believe in the

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Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. I believe that. But what do you do with a deaf person?

55:20

What do you do about someone in the womb? What do you do about someone who can't speak because they have tubes in their mouths?

55:28

And I've seen this. What do you do? What Romans 10, 9 and 10 is is normative. So I will sometimes say for clarification, here's an exception.

55:37

But normally speaking, and that's what I'll do. And a lot of times people will take me out of context, which is what I'm sure you're doing.

55:43

So you do believe that Romans 10, 9 and 10? Normally speaking, yeah, you have to confess.

55:49

But what do you do if you're a mute and you can't speak? What do you do? Until you stated earlier, and I don't know if you did this by mistake, but about someone confessing their sins in the hospital.

56:01

Do you believe that a person confesses their sins to be saved? I believe this, that confession of sins is not to become saved, but because they're already in that regenerative work of God, that God has regenerated, regenerating them.

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I don't know exactly how it all works, because I believe that the unbelievers, a slave of sin, the hater of God who can do no good, cannot receive spiritual things.

56:23

I'm quoting the scriptures with the references. So how does someone confess? Because God has convicted them, because God is working,

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God's granted they believe, and they confess they have salvation. All right.

56:37

Well, when you quote those scriptures, too, I believe, I mean, we can go to the context, but we'd be here a long time, like you said, and we would get off on something a little different.

56:46

But there's also scriptures talks about Ecclesiastes 7, 29. God made man upright, but they sought out many schemes.

56:54

I got my spirit from God. I didn't get my spirit from Adam, along with Isaiah.

57:02

Let's see. Jeremiah 19, 4 through 5, filled this place with the blood of innocence, referring to babies.

57:10

So I believe that we're born innocent again and that you're not totally depraved. So here, are you one of the elect?

57:21

What's this got to do with the debate? Because I want to know how you would determine who's elected, who's not, because earlier when you were talking about you've seen people get saved.

57:32

So I think, man, that's kind of strong language there that you actually can determine who's saved and who's not.

57:43

I'm really surprised at how you ask some of the questions. And I'm being more and more convinced that you don't understand what

57:50

I teach, what Reformed theology teaches. That's pretty evident. Did you not say that in the hospital?

57:58

You said you saw people get saved. Well, when you say you see them get saved, I don't see their souls being regenerated as in looking into their spirits.

58:07

And I have spirit glasses and I can see. We know that people confess the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible says they cannot receive things of God for their foolishness to Him.

58:16

They're spiritually discerned. If someone is going to believe in the resurrection of Christ, vicarious substitutionary legal atonement, that he died for our sins and that justifications by faith.

58:29

These are the manifestations of regenerative work of God in a person. And anyone who's doing that, you say, hey, that person saved.

58:35

OK, I'm just pronouncing what's already occurred. I'm not declaring them saved or saying

58:41

I can see that they are. I don't know if you're really saved. I don't know if you're one of the elect or not. You're preaching a false gospel right now.

58:47

But you might come out of it and believe the true gospel of justification by faith alone in Christ alone.

58:52

When we have faith alone in Christ alone, not that and a ceremony, which you add to, which is refuted in Galatians five.

58:59

We can get into that. But the thing is, you deny and you said Ecclesiastes nine, seven, twenty nine, you get your spirit from God, not from Adam.

59:07

I never said we get our spirit from Adam. You don't understand what federal headship is and what it means to be in Adam. You made making numerous mistakes here on theological understanding.

59:18

So was Adam and Eve born in sin with totally depraved? They weren't born in sin.

59:24

They were created where they did not. They did not have sinful natures. OK. So why did they stand out?

59:32

Because of their free will, they chose to rebel against God. And that's what I believe we have the same logic is is what you just said, we have free will and we rebel against God.

59:44

If you want to debate what free will is, sometime we can do that. OK, go ahead with one of your maybe baptism question or whatever you have.

59:54

Oh, wait. Well, you didn't really answer this one, but I mean, you may not want to. But when

59:59

I said, are you one of the elect? You just said, well, why are you asking that? But yes, many questions.

01:00:04

But yeah, I'm one of the elect. OK. Am I one of the elect? I don't know. I said I don't know. Oh, yeah.

01:00:10

But you said I preach a heresy or something. It might come in the future that you believe the truth, come to a true gospel and then demonstrate that you're one of the elect.

01:00:21

OK, so I can be and I can be not one of the elect and then later on be transferred into the one of the elect.

01:00:29

I don't think you understand what it means in reformed theology and biblical theology, what election is. OK, so I was the elect the whole time.

01:00:35

If I did that, that would show that would show that I was one of the elect, even though what I'm teaching right now, that's right, because an atheist could become a

01:00:43

Christian at the age of 50 demonstrating his election because God chooses him in Christ before the foundation of the world.

01:00:51

That's Ephesians chapter one, verses four and five. Second Thessalonians 3, 2, 13.

01:00:58

You've been chosen from the foot in Christ. That's what it means to be to election is being chosen of God.

01:01:05

But you said in Christ, it's in their location. In Christ is a term of federal headship.

01:01:12

Do you know what federal headship is? Well, I mean, really, some of the viewers are going to be like, where's that where is federal headship in the

01:01:20

Bible? Are you talking about that Christ is head of the body? OK, federal headship is found in Scripture.

01:01:27

It's just like the Trinity is found in Scripture. But the word Trinity is not there. The hypostatic union is found in Scripture, but not the words.

01:01:34

Hypostatic union being the one person of Christ has two distinct natures. And what we would say in if you should believe that if you don't, you're worse off than I thought.

01:01:42

But I'm assuming you do believe that. There's two distinct natures, both divine and human. But nevertheless, federal headship is the teaching that in the male, those descendants are represented.

01:01:53

So in Adam, all die. That's federal headship in Rome. That's first Corinthians 15, 22 in Romans 5, 18, it says to one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men.

01:02:06

That's federal headship. You go to to Hebrew chapter seven, verses seven through ten. And this is really a good example of it, where it says

01:02:14

Levi paid tithes to his father, paid tithes to Melchizedek while in the loins of his father.

01:02:21

Now, this means father, father, grandfather, grandfather, grandfather back there. But Levi said to pay tithes to Melchizedek because Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

01:02:30

He's in the loins and the seed in Abraham. Abraham was his federal head. This is the biblical doctrine of federal headship.

01:02:37

If you deny it, you just don't understand what the Bible teaches and it gets even more complex than this.

01:02:43

But it's very, very important doctrine. So that's what federal headship is. So children are in Adam and they all die in Adam.

01:02:53

If you deny that. Romans 5, 18, first Corinthians 15, 22.

01:03:00

Romans 5, 18. Therefore, as by one offense of one judgment came into all men to condemnation, even so by the righteous of one, the free gift came into all men, the justification of life.

01:03:13

For as by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners. So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

01:03:23

Well, that's a really bad translation. Romans 5, 18, the King James is just atrociously bad. Well, I think which we'll get on.

01:03:32

See, it's hard not to discuss some of this. Cowardice because it affects baptism, it affects born in sin and free will and all that.

01:03:41

I think verse 19, you have a problem with it. It says as many as by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners.

01:03:50

So because Adam sinned, he was kicked out of the garden. Now, when we sin, we're made sinners.

01:03:58

So by the obedience of one that is Christ, many will be made righteous.

01:04:03

Well, the problem there is you have the curse is greater than the cure because just because of Adam, I mean, because of Christ being obedient and down on the cross doesn't mean that everyone is going to be saved.

01:04:18

That's why I'm a Calvinist, because I believe in limited atonement. If you want to debate this later on, that's fine, but we're off topic.

01:04:25

OK, like I said, it's hard to stay on topic because it all it all interchanges and affects.

01:04:32

If you want to debate with respect, if you want to be Calvinism, you really need to study it because you don't know you're you know, you don't know how to argue against it.

01:04:40

You don't understand it very well. Be glad to help you understand it. So let me ask you a question, just a direct question.

01:04:50

OK. Can you please tell us if a man who is faithfully, truthfully believed in Christ, who he is, what he did on the cross, believes in that gospel, really does.

01:05:04

And he's going across the street to get baptized. He receives, goes right across the street to get baptized. He's hit by a car and he's killed.

01:05:13

Does he go to heaven or hell? He's still in sin. We already went through this.

01:05:19

If you're in sin, you're lost. So he goes to hell. So here's an example. You stated that a person must believe in the gospel.

01:05:27

Let's say there's a man across the street. I'm a preacher. I'm going to tell him about the gospel.

01:05:33

And then the man actually, well, we'll say the man's coming to me now. The man gets hit before he hears the gospel.

01:05:39

Is he going to heaven or hell? He's going to hell, right?

01:05:44

If you believe and trust in Jesus Christ, you're justified. But what you're telling us is that a man who's trusted in Jesus by faith.

01:05:53

He didn't trust in Jesus. Yes, he did. I said this man who trusts in the

01:05:58

Lord, believes in Christ. I have it written up here on my screen. I'm telling you, he trusts in the

01:06:03

Lord Jesus Christ. He's believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. He's believing in the death, burial, resurrection for the sins.

01:06:09

He's trusted in Christ because, yes, I received Christ. I trusted Christ. He immediately is going to show his work of belief and he goes across the street to get baptized.

01:06:19

It's right there. He gets killed. You say he goes to hell, which means you're saying that he's not saved by faith in Christ.

01:06:26

No, the Bible says he's going to go to hell because in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 and verse 8, it says in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not

01:06:36

God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Obeying the gospel is

01:06:42

Romans chapter 6, 3 through 7. The man is still in sin. And that's why that I am discussing this, because I don't think there's people out there that are not going to be obedient to the gospel and they're going to die in their sin.

01:06:56

So, yeah, that man, OK, because because he didn't trust Jesus, because when you trust Jesus, you trust

01:07:02

Mark 16, 16. Remember, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. He doesn't trust

01:07:07

Jesus. Wait, when I say he does trust Jesus, you're saying he doesn't. I'm telling you, there's a man who trusts in Christ, believes in Jesus, believes he rose from the dead, believes he he died on the cross for his sins, receives

01:07:22

Christ and confesses Christ as Lord and Savior, goes immediately across the street to get baptized in a river, because it's by merger, we'll say.

01:07:33

He gets killed in the way. You're saying he goes to hell. Right. Did he did he really trust

01:07:39

Jesus when he was? Yes. He didn't trust Jesus with Mark 16, 16.

01:07:46

The man. The man trusts Christ, believes in his heart that Christ rose from the dead, confesses him as Lord and Savior, believes in his heart, trusts in the

01:07:59

Lord Jesus Christ. He says, I got to get baptized. Jesus wants me to get baptized.

01:08:06

He goes across the street as exuberance. He gets killed. You're saying, I'm sorry, his faith in Christ is not enough.

01:08:14

He's got to go through a ceremony. He's got to do something in order to be saved. You're teaching the false gospel.

01:08:20

You're not agreeing with the one of the Bible verses that says that the one who does not work but believes his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

01:08:30

Romans. Because his biblical faith, you have saw he saw

01:08:38

Jesus on the road, right? It was still in his sin. He had prayed, he had fasted.

01:08:46

And what did Ananias tell him? From the scriptures, tell the viewers, what did Ananias tell him? Go get baptized.

01:08:52

Yep. For what reason? To wash away your sins. Thank you.

01:08:58

OK. Right. While you're calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus, Acts 22, 16. So you don't go all the way.

01:09:04

You don't quote the scriptures. You reference parts of them. Now, I've asked you this. I'm going to ask you again. I want everybody to know that you are denying the gospel message of salvation by grace to faith.

01:09:14

You know what you're doing? You are guilty. And I got a tough question coming for you later. You're guilty of Galatians chapter five.

01:09:22

Galatians chapter five. Everyone who receives circumcision is under obligation.

01:09:28

I'm not preaching about circumcision. Let me let me finish. Circumcision is one thing you got to do under that law in order to be right with God.

01:09:37

One thing just gets circumcised. Paul. Galatians five verses three and four.

01:09:47

I testify again to every man. There's a principle here. Every man who receives circumcision is under obligation to keep the whole law.

01:09:54

You have the Old Testament law. I don't teach the Old Testament law. We're not under the old law.

01:10:00

Do you have to believe in order to be saved? We're under the law of Christ. It's the new law.

01:10:05

Whoa. Do you have to believe in God? That's Exodus 21 through 17, 10 commandments.

01:10:11

Believe in the true living God. You got to believe in God, right? Is it Old Testament law to believe in God? They didn't believe in the gospel.

01:10:19

I asked you, is it Old Testament law to believe in God? Well, there's many things in the Old Testament law that's carried over.

01:10:26

I asked you, is it Old Testament law to believe in God? Well, sure. OK. Now, in Exodus, excuse me, in Deuteronomy six five.

01:10:37

Jesus quotes that in Matthew twenty two thirty seven, love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength.

01:10:42

That's law. Now, it also says in Leviticus nineteen eighteen to love your neighbors yourself, which

01:10:50

Jesus quotes in. Matthew twenty two thirty nine, thirty seven, thirty nine.

01:10:57

Now the Bible says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law, loving

01:11:02

God and loving your neighbor, but the works of the law. Right. Well, here's where you're confused on a lot of the teachings of Jesus in the

01:11:10

New Testament is carried over after the cross. So when Jesus come on thing, you need to read what is it?

01:11:17

Luke sixteen sixteen. So you have Jesus teaching the doctrine of Christ in the gospel account, and then that's carried over into the epistle letters and things of that nature.

01:11:29

So I don't really get your question. What are you are you trying to say that?

01:11:37

That I'm teaching circumcision? No, circumcision was part of the Old Testament law.

01:11:43

And Paul said to do one thing, just even circumcision. You've been severed from Christ. You've fallen from grace.

01:11:49

You are to be seeking to be justified. Notice what he says. You what's the one thing that I'm teaching in the old law that I'm trying to.

01:11:56

Basically, you're saying if I teach one part of the old, I got to teach it all. No, no, no, no, no. You're not listening to me.

01:12:01

You're teaching a requirement. You're teaching a New Testament law. You're saying it's by faith and something we have to do.

01:12:10

The law in the Old Testament was something they had to do. Circumcision was a ceremony. Would you agree that circumcision was a ceremony?

01:12:19

By the definition. Yeah. I mean, but now I read about before you circumcised. So this is what it says in Colossians two to eleven and twelve.

01:12:29

And you have been and you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism.

01:12:39

So Paul is relating circumcision with baptism. No, he's not. Not as a ceremony.

01:12:46

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Look at this. It says you have been circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, having been buried with him in baptism.

01:12:54

The circumcision and baptism. He's relating. I didn't say he equates them. I said he's relating the two.

01:13:00

It's right there in the text. He's relating. What what part of circumcision is he relating?

01:13:06

What part of circumcision? Circumcision is circumcision. What is it cut off? Because the foreskin, the shedding of blood.

01:13:13

And so that's how he's saying that baptism is in one sense, it cuts something off to the sins of the flesh.

01:13:20

Reverse. And you've been circumcised with a circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body, the flesh of the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, does

01:13:30

Paul relate them together? Circumcision and baptism. He relates the cutting off together.

01:13:37

That's what circumcision is. Does he relate circumcision? Does he relate circumcision with baptism?

01:13:44

The cutting off part. Baptism cuts off the sins of the flesh. Verse 11.

01:13:49

Can you show me that? Can you show me that? Yeah, I'll read it. In putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through faith of the operation of God.

01:14:05

Now, baptism here is a work or operation of God. Would you agree with that?

01:14:13

It's a ceremony, but it doesn't say that. It's an operation of God.

01:14:19

Where does it say operation of God? Through the faith. I'm using the King James, so I don't know what translation you're using.

01:14:25

You need to use a better translation. You're going to do apologetics. The King James is going to just trip you up.

01:14:31

It's an energy which has to do with works and the working and the procedures. OK, you need to do something better.

01:14:38

A more modern, accurate translation. The King James. You don't understand. Yes. King James is fine.

01:14:45

It's a good translation on knocking it. But Romans 518, it gets it wrong. Titus 213 as a mistake, some other areas.

01:14:52

And but Colossians 214, which would be great to go through with this. And, you know, we could do all kinds of stuff in Calvinistic thought.

01:14:58

But the question is, is circumcision and baptism related? And yes, they are. And what you're doing in Galatians chapter five, you are trying to add one little thing to being saved.

01:15:09

You're under obligation to keep that law, the New Testament law. You're under obligation to do whatever is necessary.

01:15:15

Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Love your neighbor and yourself. This is the law that you're obligated to keep because you require not just faith, but faith and a ceremony, which

01:15:27

Paul equates, not equates, but relates to circumcision. And he says in Galatians five, if you're going to do circumcision, you've got to keep the whole law.

01:15:35

If you can do one thing to keep yourself right, which you have to do, you have to go out and get the ceremony where someone else dunks you in water.

01:15:42

You're you're obligated to do to do more. Galatians five. What you're talking about is in context, as you said, the law of Moses.

01:15:53

So stop trying to tell everyone that I'm teaching the law of Moses. The law of Moses, Deuteronomy six, five,

01:16:01

Leviticus 19, 18 is love God and love your neighbor, which Jesus quotes in Matthew 22, 37 and 39, respectively.

01:16:07

Now, so we know that that Old Testament law, which Jesus says is summation of all the law in Matthew 22, 40.

01:16:14

So we know that those two commandments, love God and love your neighbor, are in the New Testament. Now, that's law.

01:16:21

In Romans three, twenty eight, we maintain that man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

01:16:27

The Old Testament law is those verses, those verses which Jesus equates to the end to the

01:16:33

New Testament time. Now, are we justified by faith without the works of the law?

01:16:38

Romans three, twenty eight. Explain Luke 16, 16, because that's where we're going. The law and the prophets were until John or.

01:16:47

Yeah. Yeah. Explain the law and the prophets, the law is the first five books of Moses and the prophets of the rest of it.

01:16:53

And until what is talking about there is that the law and the prophets are prophesying about Jesus Christ, because he says in John five, thirty nine, he says, you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life.

01:17:03

But it is these that bear witness of me in Luke 24, 44. He says that. Oh, you didn't finish the end of part of Luke 16, 16.

01:17:13

Well, I use it all the time and different apologetic things. So let me go and and it says all the prophets were proclaimed until John.

01:17:22

Since that time, the gospel, the kingdom of God had been preached and everyone is working his way into it. The last part, the gospel of what the kingdom.

01:17:29

So we have a different teaching being brought on the scene. You don't you don't believe.

01:17:37

You don't believe that John's baptism was something new brought in.

01:17:44

The baptism of John, John the Baptist, they were already doing baptisms at the time of John the

01:17:50

Baptist. They already did them in Jesus. Yes. Old Testament baptism.

01:17:55

Baptizo can mean immersion. It can mean sprinkling. It can mean pouring. I can prove it from the word of God.

01:18:01

They were baptizing for the remission of sins in the Old Testament. I'm talking about like an exodus or Leviticus.

01:18:09

Oh, no, they weren't doing that for there. OK, John the Baptist was in the Old Testament covenant.

01:18:16

Because the new covenant is not established until the death of Christ, Hebrews 9, 15 through 16.

01:18:23

What about Matthew 18, where it talks about how to handle discipline in the church? See, many things were taught in the gospel accounts that were brought over into the

01:18:33

New Testament when it was revealed, when it went into force of the death of the testator.

01:18:38

Let's go back to your question real quick, because we're we get hung up a lot. That's what we do.

01:18:47

Did I answer your question? What was your question? I don't remember the question now, but I got another question for you. So I think it's your turn to ask a question.

01:18:55

And then I got one for you afterwards. Well, some of these

01:19:04

I've already asked and they relate to Calvinist teaching. If you want to ask, it's your time.

01:19:10

You can ask me. It's up to you. If you want to have a debate on Calvinism, we can set it up.

01:19:19

Pick something like limited atonement. Perseverance of the Saints, election. Well, let's just I notice you like to talk about what is it,

01:19:33

Acts chapter 10? Let's talk about chapter 10. OK. Then I want to ask you about the thief on the cross later before we go.

01:19:45

Extend forty four to forty eight. While Peter was still speaking these words, the

01:19:50

Holy Spirit fell upon all those who are listening to the message. All the all the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the

01:19:59

Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also for their hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. And Peter answered, surely no one can refuse water for these to be baptized who have received the

01:20:08

Holy Spirit, just as we did. Kenny, you are then to be baptized in the name of Jesus. And then they asked, OK, OK.

01:20:14

So there you you know, that's Cornelius, right? Yeah. At this time was was he totally depraved?

01:20:26

Yes. And we're still totally depraved after we're saved. We are. I thought that's when we're regenerated by the

01:20:33

Holy Spirit. See, you don't understand what you understand. You don't know what total depravity is because it's not in the

01:20:41

Bible. I don't understand. You don't even know what it is. You say it's not the Bible. You just got it wrong because this is the authority.

01:20:49

Right. You want me to tell you what total depravity is? Yeah, it's where you are. Total is completely hereditary is where it came from.

01:20:57

Adam and you're totally depraved. You're a carnal man, a natural man, and you can't understand

01:21:05

God or something like that, right? Total depravity is a teaching that all of what we are, heart, soul, mind, body, emotions, everything is touched by sin.

01:21:18

It doesn't mean we're as bad as we can be, but it does mean that everything we're total, all of what we are has been affected by sin, the result of total depravity is that no one will come to Christ on their own or their own sinfully enslaved free will.

01:21:33

God has to intervene. To look, is that the total, then basically that's what it is about where you're talking about God grants an individual and see

01:21:46

Romans chapter nine is talking about nations, but you think it's talking about it is no way to talk about nations, but we're not we're not talking about that.

01:21:54

I will be glad to discuss that with you. And trust me, I love that topic.

01:21:59

Not about nations, it has to be for you. But I know Malachi, OK, no, no, it's not.

01:22:08

Yeah, it is. No, it's not. You'll see the man says the man, the vessel. You need to do some homework on that.

01:22:14

You're going to find out how those words are used. If you want to debate me on it, be glad to. But, you know, whatever. So back to X 10, 44 to 48.

01:22:22

Mike, well, you want you brought it up. I got questions about it, but I want to see from the cross later.

01:22:28

What's your question? Well, your question is they receive the Holy Ghost, they spoke in tongues. So therefore they're saved before water baptism.

01:22:37

Well, speaking in tongues is a gift of God, Holy Spirit to the church. First Corinthians 15, excuse me,

01:22:43

First Corinthians 14 talks about this. OK, so it's to the church, the church or the called out ones, the ecclesia, the called out ones.

01:22:54

So how are we called? How are we called? Gospel, right?

01:23:00

That he normally speaking calls people out of darkness into light by the preaching and the teaching of the gospel, which is the power of salvation.

01:23:08

Right. Yeah, very good. So it's nice to meet somebody else who can quote scripture references like that.

01:23:15

I like that. So the gift of the Holy Spirit was given before baptism, but in Acts 2, 38, the gift of the

01:23:22

Holy Spirit is given after baptism. Can you explain why the difference is? Yeah, sure. OK, the gift of the

01:23:27

Holy Spirit in Acts chapter two, we have to go further on into the scriptures to determine what is the gift of the

01:23:34

Holy Spirit. Go ahead and go to Acts chapter eight. Let's see, in verse 13, and Simon himself believed, let me actually let me start at four, if you're in no hurry.

01:23:49

No, go ahead. OK, therefore, they that were scattered abroad, whenever we're preaching the word.

01:23:54

So they went to Samaria, the Samaritans obey the gospel and Simon himself believed.

01:24:02

Let me start at 12, if you're up there. But when they believe Philip, the preaching, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

01:24:11

And when Simon himself believed also and he was baptized, he continued with Philip and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done and the signs and miracles, we understand in Mark 16, 20 are to confirm the word.

01:24:26

Now, when the apostles, which were at Jerusalem, heard the Samaria and received the word of God, they sent to Peter and John.

01:24:32

Why did they send Peter and John? Well, the Bible tells us who, when they would come down, they prayed for them that they may receive the

01:24:39

Holy Ghost. For as yet he has fallen upon none of them, only they were baptized in the name of the

01:24:46

Lord Jesus. So these people repented. They heard, they believed, they were baptized before they even received the

01:24:52

Holy Ghost. And according to that would be their natural man, even though they've done those things.

01:25:02

And so when we see there in verse 18, and when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hand, the

01:25:07

Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money. So that helps us understand in Acts chapter 2, verse 38, the gift of the

01:25:14

Holy Ghost is the miraculous ability that the apostles would lay hands on, or when we see in Acts chapter 10, the account of Cornelius in verse 45, it says it was poured out.

01:25:28

So this is the baptism measure. It's different from the laying on the hands measure. And they reference to the beginning to later on in Acts.

01:25:36

He says he remembered what was spoken, that the Holy Spirit would fall on them as on us in the beginning,

01:25:44

Acts chapter 11, verse 15. So this was a baptism measure. It was an outpouring.

01:25:49

It only is recorded two times. It only happened two times in the Bible. So in other things, you have to be honest with yourself.

01:25:56

If this still happens today, none of those people that you supposedly saw in the hospital get saved. None of them spoke in tongues.

01:26:04

None of them heard. You didn't hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind. So the baptism here was for the

01:26:11

Jews to show that the Gentiles were offered salvation, that God had granted them repentance, salvation.

01:26:18

And in Acts 10, 48, it is a command. And that goes along with Hebrews 5, 9, that Christ is the eternal salvation to all of them that obey him.

01:26:28

So we see water baptism is a command for the remission of sins, Acts 2, 38.

01:26:33

In Hebrews 5, 9, we must obey God to be saved. You sound like a

01:26:41

Roman Catholic. You do. You have the same gospel as a

01:26:46

Roman Catholic. Justification by faith and ceremony. Oh, yeah, you do. I've been studying for 20 years. The Catholic Church was one of the major first denominations that branched off.

01:26:55

See, hold on, hold on, let me respond to what you're saying. You're trying to understand what's going on. So what you're trying to tell me in Acts 10, 44 through 48, long story short, is that they were speaking in tongues, they're glorifying

01:27:07

God. They'd already received the gift of the Holy Spirit. And when you go to Acts 2, and you read what the gift is, it's the charismatic movements.

01:27:15

So they're working in the charismatic movements, the gifts of the spirit. They're still in a state of damnation.

01:27:21

So they are speaking in tongues and glorifying God. The Bible says that the unbeliever is a slave of sin.

01:27:27

Romans 6, 14 to 20. He can do no good. Romans 3, 10, 11 and 12. He cannot receive spiritual things.

01:27:32

1 Corinthians 2, 14. But you're telling me the unbeliever, in contradiction to that, is now praising

01:27:39

God, speaking in tongues, has received the Holy Spirit just as Peter already had.

01:27:45

And they're still in a state of damnation. Well, that's what I'm saying is, see, your doctrine contradicts yourself.

01:27:51

You didn't even catch it because you said that Cornelius was all those things that you just said, a depraved, natural man, all of that.

01:28:01

Can't glorify God, can't fear God. But if you look at Acts chapter 10, verse 22, it says,

01:28:06

For they said, Cornelius the centurion, he was a just man, one that feareth God. But you're saying he's totally depraved.

01:28:13

The Bible says that he feared God and he gave alms. So when you go into all those scriptures about quoting them off, we've got to go into the context and see.

01:28:22

Why does it say that? Because of the way that they were living their practice. Not that they were just totally depraved.

01:28:30

And numbers. You could be totally depraved and a Christian at the same time. Not a faithful Christian.

01:28:37

You don't understand what you're criticizing. Total depravity means that you're touched by sin and all that you are.

01:28:42

A Christian still is. OK, you rattled off three verses. Let's let's go look at them.

01:28:48

No, this is the issue of Acts 10. See, in Acts 10, I'm trying to ask you, because they've already received the gifts of the

01:28:54

Holy Spirit. They're already speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Receive the Holy Spirit just as Peter had.

01:29:00

Are you telling me they're still in a state of damnation? What are you saying? The Holy Spirit saved them then.

01:29:06

They were already saved. I don't know exactly what moment, but it says the Gentiles.

01:29:12

Because that's what it says there. If you were to look at numbers 22, 28, you know, that account of Balaam's donkey.

01:29:21

Yeah, OK. Was he was he saved because the spirit moved him to speak? That's a different context.

01:29:27

You can't take the context of one thing and move it over to another thing. And we're talking about X 10, 44 to 48 all the time.

01:29:33

You know, I don't. No, I don't. OK, I teach people. I teach people hermeneutical principles and exegetical principles.

01:29:42

You're failing to understand what it is I'm saying. And this is what you're getting confused in.

01:29:47

You don't understand the terms that you're using. I'm telling you again, you should not try and debate me on Calvinism respectfully.

01:29:55

You don't understand what you're criticizing in that area. You just study up. You should stick with the issue of the text in Acts 10, 44 to 48.

01:30:03

My question is, according to the Bible, you tell me from the scriptures what would want to save Cornelius?

01:30:12

What's going to save Cornelius is his belief and trust in Christ. Where does it say that?

01:30:18

That's what you said. That's what it takes in scripture. I'm telling you, it's what the Bible says. Say Acts chapter what?

01:30:25

I mean, tell me book chapter verse. First Corinthians 15. No, no, no.

01:30:32

You didn't ask for context. You said, what is it a person must do to believe to be saved? I'm telling you, I'm saying in the context of the account of Cornelius, you tell me from Acts chapter 10 and saying we have the account again in Acts chapter 11.

01:30:48

Acts chapter 11, verse 14 contradicts your doctrine of the

01:30:54

Holy Spirit, because look at verse 14, who shall tell thee words while thou and all the house shall be saved.

01:31:01

So it was words that was going to save Cornelius, not the Holy Spirit coming out. What are you, a confessionist?

01:31:08

Huh? No, a confessionist, the powers in the word. Romans 1 16.

01:31:17

What does that say? Wow. The power. You don't understand what I'm saying.

01:31:23

OK, the gospel is a power of God to salvation for everyone who, you know, for the Jew first, everyone who believes for the

01:31:29

Jew first, the Gentile also heard and that's what they obeyed in Acts 10 48. They obeyed the gospel.

01:31:35

Good. So they believe the gospel. So then they're speaking in tongues, glorifying God. They've already received the

01:31:41

Holy Spirit, just as Peter. Are they in a state of damnation at that point before water baptism? Look what the

01:31:47

Bible says. And they have the circumcision, which believe were astonished. As many as come with Peter, because that on the

01:31:55

Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. So it was for the Jews to show that basically they were a lot of,

01:32:02

I guess you could say racism going on, Jews and Gentiles. And when you go from Acts chapter 10 to Acts chapter 2, how long was that?

01:32:12

Since you're, you would know. You don't know the time frame? No. OK, well, it was,

01:32:19

I would say around 15 years. It's been a while since I studied it, but 15 years from Acts 2 to Acts 10, 15 years, there was no other baptism poured out until 15 years later, because this was when the

01:32:34

Gentiles were going to be offered salvation. So it wasn't for salvation, the gift of the

01:32:41

Holy Spirit pouring out on them. The gift of the Holy Spirit occurs in Acts 2 .38 and the gift of the

01:32:46

Holy Spirit occurs after baptism. Here, the gift of the Holy Spirit occurs before baptism. The gift of the

01:32:52

Holy Spirit in Acts 2 .38, it doesn't say it was poured out. Acts 10, it says it was poured out.

01:32:59

The pouring out. You can go to Acts chapter 1, 17 and 18. Acts chapter 1, it was poured out on the apostles.

01:33:07

Acts chapter 2 was poured out on believers who were going to repent and be baptized. Yeah, and the pouring was a pouring.

01:33:13

And it says, and that relates to the pouring of the water, which is a whole other interesting topic on the mode of baptism.

01:33:20

But that's another thing here in Acts 10, 44 and 48. Are you telling, ask me this specific, give me a specific answer.

01:33:27

Are you telling me that these Gentiles who are speaking in tongues, they're exalting

01:33:34

God, they've already received the Holy Spirit as the Apostle Peter had. The gift of the

01:33:40

Holy Spirit had been poured out on them as they're listening to the message, the gospel message of truth by which they're going to be saved.

01:33:47

They're obviously believing. They're speaking in tongues, they're glorifying God. They receive the Holy Spirit even as Peter had.

01:33:53

And you're saying, yeah, they're still in a state of damnation, right? No, the Bible says in Acts 10, 48, and he commanded them to be baptized.

01:34:02

It is a commandment. So Peter understands that Jesus is the Messiah. And Jesus said, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

01:34:11

So are you telling me that Peter taught something different from the Lord? You don't listen.

01:34:16

You don't listen to what I ask you. Repeatedly, I ask you in that instance right there, are you telling me that they are in a state of damnation before they get water baptized?

01:34:29

That's what I'm asking you. The Bible says that you have to be baptized to contact the blood of Jesus.

01:34:36

So in other words, is your answer that they're still damned? Are they saved without the blood of Jesus? No, they're not.

01:34:42

Are you telling me that they're saved? Look, I ask you directly. Are they damned before they got water baptized?

01:34:49

People here, are they still damned? That they cannot be saved without the blood of Jesus.

01:34:55

So you just condemned them because the blood of Jesus is in Water of the Graves of Baptism, Romans six.

01:35:01

No, Romans six, you get completely wrong because you don't understand federal headship. What it means to die with Christ, be crucified with Christ, because he was crucified two thousand years ago.

01:35:10

How could we be crucified with Christ if we didn't live yet? This is what you don't understand, biblical theology.

01:35:15

And the reason you don't understand biblical theology is because you're stuck in the stupid Church of Christ thing, which has got you hamstrung because you can't progress in your theology beyond what they have narrowly taught you.

01:35:25

This is why you don't understand federal headship. You don't understand hypostatic union. Apparently, you don't understand that we're justified by faith alone, through Christ alone.

01:35:33

You don't understand what James chapter two is talking about and justification before people. You mess up the idea of what total depravity is.

01:35:40

You don't understand that either. There's a lot you don't get. I'm trying to ask you a question and you can't give me a straight answer.

01:35:46

You're telling me that these people were in a state of damnation before they got water baptized. All you got to do is say, yes, the

01:35:53

Bible says in the Bible does not say they were in a state of damnation before they got baptized. It says they will be told words where they shall be saved.

01:36:01

OK, Acts 11. You don't like Acts 11. You just you know, I'm sorry, but you know, now when you read that they were saved because they had the

01:36:12

Holy Spirit, but the Bible doesn't say that. It says words. They received the Holy Spirit just as Peter had.

01:36:18

You have the Holy Spirit. Yes, I do. Did they receive the Holy Spirit just as Peter had? Well, you need to tap into it.

01:36:27

They received the Holy Spirit just as Peter had. Just the same as Peter had.

01:36:33

You tell me they're damned. Are you saying Peter was lost in Acts chapter two or was he saved in Acts chapter one?

01:36:38

I'm talking about Acts chapter 10. You keep jumping to something else. This is too tough for you.

01:36:44

You can't answer the question. You got to go someplace else. Because you're referencing as Peter at the beginning.

01:36:50

Admit you're doing it because. OK, I've got a question for you.

01:36:56

Say something about you being stupid. What church do you even go to? I go to Calvary Chapel. I don't know.

01:37:02

Where's that? I never read about that in the Bible. Can you read Romans 16, 16? You said it was stupid, but the church belongs to Jesus.

01:37:09

I didn't say Romans 16, 16 was stupid. I didn't say the church doesn't belong to Christ. The church of Christ is stupid.

01:37:17

Your church is teaching a false gospel. I don't have a church. Oh, boy. OK, look, look, look, the thief on the cross.

01:37:24

I got a question for you. The thief on the cross. Was he saved or not saved?

01:37:30

When Jesus says, truly I say to you, today you'll be with me in paradise. Was he saved or not saved?

01:37:36

You already answered it. I'm saying he saved. He went to heaven. He was not baptized. So can you refute that?

01:37:43

Yeah, you already answered my refute. When we first started this and we can go back and people can go back and find it where you said it.

01:37:51

You said a person has to believe in the death, burial and resurrection. Now you're using an example of the thief on the cross that did not believe that because Jesus hadn't even rose from the dead and his own apostles didn't believe that.

01:38:05

Wait a minute. I say I say to you normatively and you keep omitting that. Now, Jesus said in Luke 23, 43, truly

01:38:12

I say to you today, you'll be with me in paradise. Is Jesus saying that the man saved? Is the thief on the cross an example for you and I?

01:38:22

Yes. Now, is the thief on the cross saved by Christ's own words? Today, you shall be with me in paradise.

01:38:31

Does that mean that Jesus is pronouncing salvation on him? Read Mark 2, 10. What does that say? OK, is

01:38:37

Jesus pronouncing salvation on this man on the cross? Mark 2, 10.

01:38:43

It says the man referring to Jesus has the power on earth to forgive sin. Is Jesus pronouncing this man saved?

01:38:52

And so you're using an example that didn't even believe in the death, burial and resurrection to promote a doctrine.

01:38:58

So I would never bring up the thief on the cross again because he's not your example. Is Jesus telling us and this man that he saved?

01:39:07

Look at the text. Today, truly I say to you, Jesus, God in flesh, creator of the universe is saying today you shall be with me in paradise.

01:39:17

Is he saying that he's going to be saved? OK. Why do you pick him?

01:39:24

What about let's say you believe Noah was saved? Is Jesus pronouncing this man saved?

01:39:31

Well, you already answered it. You answer me. Is he pronouncing him saved? Is he an example for you and I?

01:39:39

Is he pronouncing him saved? I mean, yeah. Yes. Is the thief baptized?

01:39:47

Do you have more revelation to show he wasn't baptized? Do you? Is Jesus? Oh, you argue for what it doesn't say.

01:39:53

It doesn't say that that the thief was able to jump in Jack's three days earlier.

01:40:00

It must have happened. You don't argue for what it doesn't say. You argue for what it does say. So he's on the cross.

01:40:06

And earlier he and the other guy had been mocking Christ. Then later it says that he believed in Christ, the

01:40:13

Jews, because it was a day of preparation, so the bodies would not remain. So first Corinthians six.

01:40:19

No, no, no. Stick with the text. You keep jumping and trying to avoid it. You've admitted that Jesus pronounced him saved.

01:40:25

There's no record of him being baptized. None. He also didn't believe the gospel.

01:40:31

So therefore you contradict your own doctrine. Wait a minute. You said Jesus said he was saved. If you're going to say that I'm saying it's contradicting.

01:40:38

Let me finish. You're saying Jesus is contradicting the gospel. You're saying

01:40:43

Jesus, because you said Jesus pronounced him saved. Did he preach the gospel to him right there on the cross?

01:40:49

No. You are so stuck. No, I'm not stuck. You are.

01:40:54

You said he was pronounced to be saved. Was he baptized? I'll tell you what.

01:41:00

OK, here's the thing on the cross. The thief on the cross is not your example because he didn't finish.

01:41:07

He didn't believe in the death, burial, resurrection. The thief on the cross is an example of humility, something that Matt doesn't show because the death, burial, resurrection wasn't even preached to the thief on the cross.

01:41:22

Second, Jesus had the power to save anybody while he walked on earth. Mark two, ten.

01:41:28

And also Jesus saved him before even the new will and testament was revealed in Acts chapter two.

01:41:34

So why don't you use the young, rich, young ruler? Why don't you use someone else as an example? So you admit water baptism is not necessary for salvation because Jesus pronounced him saved without water baptism.

01:41:49

Will you admit that the gospel is not required for salvation? No, I never said that. I said, no,

01:41:54

I did not. I said, normatively speaking, you keep what you keep doing is misrepresenting what

01:42:03

I'm doing. That's bearing false witness. I never said what you said.

01:42:08

I said, normatively speaking, I'm not new at this. Let me explain. Normatively speaking,

01:42:14

I said earlier, you've got to hear that gospel, believe and preach. But what about babies? Are they hearing that gospel?

01:42:19

We brought this up. I know about this topic. OK, babies don't hear that gospel. Yet you would even say they go to heaven.

01:42:27

So you're not consistent with how you're applying this criticism. And in this account here in Luke 23, 43,

01:42:35

Jesus says, today you'll be with me in paradise. And you're saying, Matt, you're saying you say without the gospel,

01:42:41

Jesus is saying he's saved. I'm repeating what Jesus says. And you call me a problem. Your problem is with what

01:42:48

Jesus did. So will you affirm, can you be saved today without the gospel?

01:42:54

Boy, yes. Well, hold on. It's not a yes or no question, because what about an infant who dies a month before birth in the womb?

01:43:03

Can that person be saved without hearing that gospel? See, we get right back into total hereditary depravity.

01:43:10

No, no, no. Can a person be saved without hearing that gospel message? Can a baby be saved? Because, yeah, because they don't need to be.

01:43:17

Yes, they do need to be saved. You're saying, this is the problem with the

01:43:24

Church of Christ. You fail to understand the nature of man. You fail to understand the sovereignty of God.

01:43:31

You fail to understand the areas of criticism that you have. In particular, you shouldn't brought up Calvinism because you fail miserably to understand that as a fact.

01:43:38

When I talk to you about Luke 23, 43 and the issue, you're admitting here that Jesus is pronouncing forgiveness upon him.

01:43:45

But you're arguing the debate title is that water baptism by immersion is necessary for salvation.

01:43:51

That's not the case with Jesus himself. So your problem here so far is with what Jesus is saying.

01:43:57

You're trying real hard to get out from underneath this problem. Furthermore, the thief died inside the new covenant, because in Hebrews 9, 15 through 16, it says that the new covenant or the covenant starts with the death of the testator.

01:44:13

Jesus died. The thief died after him. Therefore, the thief died.

01:44:19

What? Jesus saved him when he was alive. He died in the new covenant without being baptized in water and he saved.

01:44:29

So therefore, water baptism is not necessary for salvation, as you just admitted. You just admitted it's not necessary.

01:44:36

I can tell you got worked up about this thief on the cross because you know that the thief on the cross was not preached the gospel and he was not required to be baptized because it started in Jerusalem.

01:44:47

Luke 24. He saved. Explain how he saved without the gospel, without being baptized.

01:44:55

Mark 2, 10. Which is that Jesus has the authority to forgive. Yeah. Well, now, as his will and testament now went into force.

01:45:06

So then you Abraham. Who says while he's on earth, all authority has been given to me in heaven and earth,

01:45:12

Matthew 28, 18, after his resurrection. He has the authority in heaven now. Don't just say on earth. Well, his new will and testament went in force now.

01:45:22

His will and testament is in force, a new covenant which started at the beginning or at his death.

01:45:27

And then the thief died in the new covenant. When does a will go into when? When do you receive the benefits of the will?

01:45:37

It's got to be read. It's got to be revealed when the person dies who authored it.

01:45:42

The new covenant, Jesus died that we had to get the benefit. Right. The death of the testator.

01:45:48

Then it is revealed in Acts chapter two. So I think it's very clear the audience can make a judgment on that.

01:45:55

They can say that, you know, the thief on the cross didn't. He's not your example. Yes, he is my example.

01:46:01

He's an example of being saved without water baptism in the new covenant. You already said Romans 10, 9 and 10 was required and he didn't do that.

01:46:08

So therefore, I said normatively required. You keep doing that. Because you normally you change things when it changes.

01:46:15

No, I don't. You do. I'm being consistent. No, you don't even represent me properly.

01:46:24

No, we have to correct you numerous times. I keep saying normally speaking. Yes, Romans 10, 9 and 10.

01:46:29

But what about the infant in the womb? I'm just giving you the proof. It's normative. You've got to believe that.

01:46:35

But the infant in the womb can't that we know of at least. What about a mute person? You've got to confess.

01:46:41

Normatively speaking is what Romans 10, 9 and 10. I keep saying this to you and you keep saying what you said and you remove this normative thing by misrepresenting me.

01:46:49

You're not being consistent. So normally people don't even have to hear the gospel today to be saved because.

01:46:55

I didn't say that. I did not say that. Man, OK, so you can't answer the question about the thief on the cross.

01:47:04

You can't really deal with that issue. No, no. You just said because Jesus can forgive. So in other words, it's not necessary to be water baptized because Jesus proved it.

01:47:13

Jesus works against you. The thief died, the new covenant. I asked you about in Acts chapter 10.

01:47:18

You can't even tell me without me having to really get it out of you, the people who are speaking in tongues, glorifying God, who had received the

01:47:25

Holy Spirit, just as Peter had before they got baptized, they're still in a state of damnation. You also can't deal with the issue that justified by faith talk.

01:47:33

And I mean, we've got a break. You just continue to rattle and see what happens with a lot of people when they start getting in a bind, they want to overtalk you.

01:47:45

And see what happens is when they want to overtalk you is because they can't answer or they feel like their doctrine is being challenged.

01:47:51

So now they want to be more aggressive and overtalk you. And I didn't want us to go that way because the viewers are not going to learn anything.

01:47:58

The viewers can see the answers I gave are very simple and true.

01:48:03

OK, the thief on the cross is not your example. The Great Commission had went to effect.

01:48:09

Jesus was alive when he saved him. He didn't believe in the death, burial, resurrection. Mark two, ten, he could save him however he want.

01:48:15

People can look that up and they can be honest or not. I mean, that's all there is to it. But you can say that I didn't answer it and I went this way and that way, but whatever.

01:48:23

But you have another question. Dodge, would I ask you? You have one or two because I'm getting ready to get off. I have.

01:48:29

Can you explain? Second, Peter three, nine. He wants all men to be saved. Yeah. Yeah.

01:48:36

OK, let me ask you, this is this is a question. Well, I won't ask you the question. I'll teach you. The word all has different meanings in the

01:48:43

Bible. You've undoubtedly have never done a study on how God uses the word all. So does he want all men to be saved or not?

01:48:51

I'm trying to answer you. Yeah, but you're going to take a lot of time. Can you I mean, can you make it 30 seconds?

01:48:56

I mean, how much longer does people need to understand? Does God want all men or does he want some?

01:49:02

The Bible says all now you can go into explaining that study overall. But is it all men or or some?

01:49:09

Can I explain? Yeah. All right. So God uses the word all differently in different contexts.

01:49:16

For example, in Romans five, 18, it says that resulted justification of life to all men.

01:49:22

That's what the Greek actually says. The all cannot be everybody ever lived because not all men are justified.

01:49:28

It's a very interesting verse when it says in First Corinthians 15, 22 in Adam all die in Christ.

01:49:35

All should be made alive. The all who are made alive can only be a limited group because made alive in Christ means that you he's resurrected, were resurrected with him.

01:49:46

Federal headship issue. When we talk about the issue of if I could say, have you died?

01:49:51

I'd say, have you died with Christ? Well, only Christians have died with Christ. Only Christians have died to the elementary principles of the world.

01:49:58

People die to themselves. We never find in Scripture any place where it says that an unbeliever has died to sin and died to himself.

01:50:05

How do you know that? By federal headship, something you don't know yet. Let me finish. Let me explain.

01:50:12

Now, it says in Second Corinthians 5, 14, the love of Christ controls us, having included this, that one died for all.

01:50:19

Therefore, all died. Who's the all who died? The all who died can only be the elect.

01:50:26

It can't be everybody who ever lived because the phraseology of God's word, that if you die with Christ, it means you're saved.

01:50:34

He says that he died for all. Therefore, all died. We see that the Bible uses the word all in relationship to the work of Christ in a different way.

01:50:43

Jesus says in John 6, 37, all that the father gives me will come to me. All the father gives me will come to me and the one who come to me,

01:50:50

I will never cast out. There's a group called the all. When he says in Second Peter 3, 9, he wants all to be saved.

01:50:56

There's two senses you can understand this in. One is that he wants someone to be saved and doesn't arrange that they're saved.

01:51:03

That's one way to say it, because in Mark 4, 10 through 12. Say that one more time. Let me there's a one sense is once there's two senses.

01:51:12

I've explained the one sense that all can mean just a limited group. And I can prove it from Scripture.

01:51:17

But the other one is that God can desire another sense. God can desire everyone to be saved, but not arrange that everybody's be saved.

01:51:27

So do you think that's the second group in there? I think it's the first that the all is referring to the group that was limited and given by the father to the son.

01:51:36

I have exegetical grounds for that. Now, if you want to say that Second Peter 3, 9 means every individual that God desires that, then why does

01:51:44

Jesus in Mark 4, 10 through 12 speak in parables? Mark 4, 10 through 12, he tells us why he speaks in parables.

01:51:53

Yeah. So people will not be saved. Where does it say where they will not be saved?

01:52:01

Read it. Mark 4, 10 through 12. Go to verse 11. Well, 10.

01:52:08

As soon as he was alone, his followers, along with the 12, began asking about the parables. Verse 11.

01:52:14

And he was saying to them, to you has been given the mystery, the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables.

01:52:20

So that while seeing, they may see and not perceive. And while hearing, they may hear and not understand.

01:52:28

Otherwise, they might return and be forgiven. Is that verse 12?

01:52:37

Yep. So he's saying he speaks in parables to hide the truth from them so they won't be forgiven.

01:52:46

I'll put the text. In the chat, if it's. And then what parable did he go into?

01:52:54

Oh, the solar, right? Do you do you see why he speaks in parables so they will not be saved?

01:53:04

If it's his desire that every individual be saved, why does he speak in parables? If it means or not to be saved?

01:53:12

Because at this time he's teaching his close disciples, isn't he? He's teaching us.

01:53:20

He's saying that the people outside he's teaching his disciples, they don't get it in parables, people on the outside get it in parables so that they won't be saved.

01:53:28

But you went to second Peter three, nine, which I love that verse. You can also go to first Timothy two, four. But if you want everyone to be saved, why is he speaking in parables so they won't be saved?

01:53:38

And that's not the only verse like this in the New Testament. Why couldn't they understand the parables?

01:53:51

It's not the question. The question is, why did Jesus speak in parables so they would not be forgiven?

01:53:58

Second Peter three, nine, you're saying that he wants everyone to be saved. And you, I believe you understand or you teach that the word all there, what's all people to be saved means every individual ever lived.

01:54:07

If that's the case, why does he speak in parables? When Jesus himself says is so people won't get saved. Well, you have to harmonize.

01:54:15

It says all is all. So, I mean, that's why I would believe that. All the world was taxed.

01:54:21

And to be people in Madagascar. So even John three, 16,

01:54:28

John three, 16, doesn't say what you think it says in the Greek. Notice what it's saying here in Mark four, 12, lest they return and be forgiven.

01:54:39

Is that what Jesus is teaching? That the reason he's given the parables, speaking parables, is so they won't be saved.

01:54:44

Is that true? Take time to read it if you want. And I think it's very clear to the parable he teaches is about the sower sowing the seed.

01:55:06

Right. And he explains he actually explains the parable to them.

01:55:14

The question I've asked you, why did Jesus speak in parables? What's the reason Jesus says he speaks in parables?

01:55:22

Verse 12. Wait a second.

01:55:30

You want to take a minute and look at it because I could use the restroom. OK. I'm about done, but yeah, you can go ahead and take a break.

01:55:41

One minute. I can still hear you. All right. You better go into the bathroom.

01:55:47

Don't worry, I'm slick. So look at Mark four, 10 through 12.

01:55:54

What's the reason he speaks in parables? So they will not be saved. And seeing that they may see and not perceive and hearing, they may hear and not understand, at least at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven.

01:56:32

Forgiven them. And he said, no, you not this parable and how that then will, you know, all parables.

01:56:40

So he's teaching his disciples. More likely, I would probably say he is a future apostles at this time, wouldn't you think?

01:56:49

Probably. And then he tells them the parable, the sower soweth the word, and so that he teaches the he tells them this, but then actually he sends them out in Matthew 10 in the limited commission to teach

01:57:07

Israel, to teach the Jews. And he gives them authority.

01:57:14

No, he gives them authority. Matthew 10, I use this whole chapter against the Roman Catholics and their apostolic succession authority problem.

01:57:21

Now, the question is in Mark four, 10 through 12, why? What does Jesus say is the reason he speaks in parables?

01:57:31

Yeah, because he said that seeing they may see and not perceive in hearing they may hear and not understand.

01:57:41

And so at this time, he's teaching his disciples and he tells his disciples this, but they could understand it if they wanted to.

01:57:52

They had their own Jewish. We're not talking about that. He says you've been given the truth.

01:57:58

They get outside, get in parables. Why is he speaking in parables according to what Jesus said? Well, what the

01:58:06

Bible says, but that doesn't mean exactly like you're saying that because he wants them to go to hell.

01:58:12

I didn't say that. I said, so they won't be forgiven, that's what he's saying. But the question is, it started out with, does

01:58:20

God want all men to be saved? And you're trying to say that God doesn't want all people to go to heaven.

01:58:25

What I'm saying is, if you believe that all means every individual, you have to reconcile it with this.

01:58:32

Yeah, and I can show you that the all can mean a limited group. I have an article written on this on yet another website

01:58:39

I've got. Got all men saved. I go through 1 Corinthians 15, 22, Romans 5, 18 and 2

01:58:44

Corinthians 5, 14. And I show from the scriptures that there's a sense in which

01:58:50

God says about the all doesn't mean everybody ever lived. This is not an opinion. I can prove it from Scripture.

01:58:56

I've done it many times over the years. It doesn't mean, though, that 2 Peter 3, 9, that the all there is in that sense.

01:59:04

It doesn't necessitate that. There's two senses which we can understand the word all. All means only the elect, which

01:59:10

I can make a case for. All can mean every individual. But we have to then deal with the issue.

01:59:16

If it means every individual, then why is Jesus speaking in Mark 4, 10 through 12 this way?

01:59:21

And why 2 Thessalonians 2, roughly verse 13, God sends a deluding influence on people so they will believe the lie and they'll be deceived and be damned.

01:59:29

Ultimately, that's eschatological. So you see, if you say if you can't just say, look, he wants everyone to be saved, that just means everybody.

01:59:37

How do you know? Because it doesn't say that it's like John 3, 16, people don't know whoever will believe it doesn't say that.

01:59:46

It says all the believing one. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people that don't know what it teaches.

01:59:53

But you don't know. For God so loved the world. You're saying that that's not accurate.

02:00:01

No, he loved the world. But no, no. I said all the believing one in the Greek is what it says instead of the word whosoever.

02:00:07

And the word world, Jesus was sent not to the whole world. You know that, right? He wasn't sent to the whole world, right?

02:00:13

He died for the whole world to be saved. Was he sent to the whole world?

02:00:21

Was he sent to the whole world? Well, I mean, he was sent like 2000 years ago, but he died for the whole world.

02:00:30

You're not answering the question. Was he sent to the whole world? OK, let me help you out.

02:00:35

No, he wasn't. Where did you draw the question from the Bible? It's Matthew 15, 24. Jesus says,

02:00:41

I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was not sent to save the world, but he's only sent to save Israel.

02:00:47

But they broke the covenant. And so we were grafted in. Praise God. And I can get into more about that.

02:00:53

But the word world there means all the people. Now that he's spoken parables, parables to people will not be saved.

02:01:00

Reconcile that with second Peter three, nine. But you contradict yourself, I think, and you didn't catch it. You said he was sent to Israel, right?

02:01:09

Only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 15, 24. So was those people that were listening to the parables, the lost sheep?

02:01:19

The lost sheep of the house of Israel. Do you know what the phrase house of Israel means? Were they the lost sheep house of Israel?

02:01:26

Do you know what the house of Israel is? I would say that's referring to the Jews, right?

02:01:32

Largely, yes. The covenantal aspect of Judaism and the Jews under the covenant of God. And so he was sent only to them.

02:01:39

It's a covenant fulfillment requirements of the Old Testament. They rejected it. So who was there in Mark four listening to that?

02:01:47

In Mark four, he's talking to his disciples and then he explains. No, I'm talking about the ones that did not understand the parable.

02:01:54

Who was that crowd? Who was those people? Well, when he's talking, he says, as soon as he was alone, his followers, along with the twelve, began asking about the parables.

02:02:04

Then he says he speaks in parables for that reason. So when we look at the context, he began to teach again by the sea.

02:02:11

The Sea of Galilee. I've been there, incidentally. Are those people the lost sheep of Israel? That's what

02:02:17

I'm asking. But you don't understand what the lost sheep of the House of Israel is. Well, that's what

02:02:23

I'm asking you, are they or not? That the covenantal aspect, those who under the covenantal aspect of God calling national

02:02:32

Israel, the people within that covenant, they're considered largely the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

02:02:38

Sheep, not goats. They have to do with the elect. This is as with covenant theology.

02:02:44

But you asked me, I'm trying to tell you the whole crowd was by the sea on the land and it was teaching them in parables.

02:02:52

And so then the Pharisees, I mean, the Pharisees, the Jews, I mean, his disciples said, why are you speaking in parables? He says to you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God.

02:03:00

But to them who are on the outside, there are people who on the Sea of Galilee under the covenant aspect of God, which is different than the salvation covenant aspect of God.

02:03:11

Because I'm going to say this, you don't you haven't studied covenant theology, so you don't understand the differences. And it's tough, takes a while to study, but you can be in the covenant of God and not be saved.

02:03:22

People could be circumcised and in the covenant of God. But doesn't mean that they were saved. You were entered in on the eighth day.

02:03:28

Slaves could be entered into circumcision when they were mature. It doesn't mean they were saved. The covenant sign did not guarantee salvation.

02:03:34

It was simply a covenant sign. And Paul relates the two with circumcision and covenant of baptism.

02:03:41

That's a whole nother theological aspect takes more time to get into. But the issue here is Mark four.

02:03:46

He speaks in parables so they will not be saved. If Jesus want if God wants every individual to be saved, the question to you is.

02:03:55

And you can say this, you could say I should say, let me help you out. You should say, I don't have an answer.

02:04:01

I haven't seen that before. I need to study it. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm on the radio, people ask me questions, you know,

02:04:08

I don't know, I got to study it. So that's you're out for now. But but it says this, it's

02:04:16

Mark four, 10 through 12. Cross -reference it with second Peter three, nine. If he says he wants everyone to be saved, all people means every individual.

02:04:24

Then why does Jesus teach to the contrary? It's because the understanding that you have about second

02:04:31

Peter three, nine may not be accurate or Mark three, Mark four, 10 through 12 understanding may not be accurate.

02:04:38

Or it's possible that I'm not getting the the issues right. But the way I understand it, there is no contradiction.

02:04:47

I don't think the contradiction, I think, as I asked you, you said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

02:04:57

That's right. He wasn't sent to the world. Those people that he was teaching the parables to that did not understand were they the lost sheep of the house of Israel covenantally?

02:05:14

Yes. Covenantally doesn't mean that they were saved. OK, so so so he was sent to them and they were lost and he was and he wanted them to remain lost.

02:05:30

No, he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is where reformed theology comes to the rescue.

02:05:36

Then you can understand the difference between covenant and the aspect of his election within the covenant because you have to understand the different kinds of covenants.

02:05:43

They're not going to teach you this in church of Christ. They don't go that deep into the word of God. No church of Christ person

02:05:49

I've ever talked to in many years has ever gotten this, ever understood it because they teach one main thing, you got to be baptized in water, usually by their church, but not about you, but their church.

02:06:03

They usually say that in order to be saved. They don't study covenant. They don't study the federal headship.

02:06:08

They don't study this relationship. You're going off on your back and I'm not church of Christ. I'm a

02:06:13

Christian and we do teach. We teach the old law and the new law and the

02:06:19

Abraham covenant. So I understand what a covenant is.

02:06:25

And I do agree that you can be in a covenant and not be faithful. And of course, that would be like what you're saying, that you could be lost, lost

02:06:34

Christians, unfaithful Christians. Do you have any more questions?

02:06:40

And I don't care to answer more, but that you can take off.

02:06:47

Yeah, we have. There's plenty more to cover, but that's OK. So well, some of the questions

02:06:54

I ask, it's like I hate to say it, but it goes for a long time and it's like like Joshua and Joshua, 24, 15.

02:07:04

Could he choose? I mean, basically, do we have free will? Yes, we have free will defined in a biblical context.

02:07:11

Yes. OK, so you can you can choose to maybe read the

02:07:18

Bible and not. Yes. OK, so I would encourage, as you would, people out there listening to to read the word of God.

02:07:27

Again, my proposition was, is baptism required for salvation?

02:07:34

I believe I went through showed scriptures that clearly teach that it is today.

02:07:40

I've already explained to you that it's not for children. It's not in the Old Testament. Baptism in Jesus name had a beginning place in Luke 24, a beginning at Jerusalem.

02:07:51

I went through many other scriptures about baptism. You have questions on the scriptures.

02:07:59

It's been two and a half hours. I'm good with if you want to go, we'll just get into it. Trust me,

02:08:04

I can keep going. And after you leave, we'll have an after show and people can come in and talk and we can do stuff.

02:08:12

But I think you failed to answer many questions properly. Well, I think, too, I mean, your proposition, you're you're teaching faith only and you can't give one verse for that.

02:08:22

Romans 4, 5, Romans 3, 28, Galatians 2, 16, 2, 21. Only. None of those say only.

02:08:29

You don't have to have the word only. Yeah, that's OK. OK, so then what it says to the one who does not work but believes, is that faith only?

02:08:41

Well, that's referring to the one that works is referring to the one who the one who believes the one who does not work but believes.

02:08:51

Is that then belief alone? You're going to you talk about Romans, Romans 4, 5.

02:09:01

We say we didn't get into much of that. But now, will you agree to that? Was the Romans already

02:09:07

Christians? Romans is just a church. There are some that were

02:09:12

Christians and some not Christians. Romans, look at Romans 4, verse one. What shall we say then that Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh, is found for Abraham was justified by works.

02:09:22

He has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was credited him as righteousness.

02:09:30

Not his works, but his belief. Now, for the one who works, his wages not credited as a favor, but what is due, but to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

02:09:45

Now, yeah. So when you consider the context of Romans chapter four, Paul is is talking to the

02:09:52

Jewish audience. When you say look over in chapter three, verse nine, what then?

02:10:00

Are we better than they? And know why? For we before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they're all under sin.

02:10:07

So he's showing in verse 22, even the righteous of God is by faith of Jesus Christ and to all that upon all them that believe that you can change that all you want, but it says all them that believe for there is no difference for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

02:10:23

So he's telling these Jews, look, you're no better than the Gentiles. You've sinned. You cannot keep a law system.

02:10:29

You cannot keep the law of Moses perfect. And that's why he brings up Abraham. Abraham was not under the law of Moses.

02:10:35

And he says, what set the scripture? Abraham believed God. If you go look at your cross reference, that's in Genesis 15, verse six, right?

02:10:45

Are you what you say? Think that Abraham had already believed God. He'd already obeyed

02:10:50

God in Genesis chapter 12. What does Paul say?

02:10:57

Abraham believed God's criticism, his righteousness, right? That's what Paul is. Where's that taken from?

02:11:03

Acts of Genesis 15, right? Fifteen six. You have to understand something. The New Testament interprets the old, not the old interpreting the new.

02:11:12

Why was why was all nations of the earth blessed? That's Genesis 12, three.

02:11:19

No fulfilled. Genesis 22. In you, all the nations shall be blessed. Genesis 12, three.

02:11:25

Paul quotes that in Galatians 3, eight and calls it the gospel. Genesis 22, 18.

02:11:30

And this is that say all nations of the earth will be blessed because thou has obeyed my voice.

02:11:37

Yes. And he obeyed his voice. He offered up his son Isaac and did all this stuff. But look at Romans four is teaching.

02:11:43

You ask, where does it say faith alone? I'm showing you the very verse. You do the same thing.

02:11:49

You do the same thing as the Roman Catholics. You do the exact same thing. Look, what does it say? Romans four, five.

02:11:55

But to the one who does not work, does not work, but believes. What were considered was

02:12:06

Abraham justified before the law? Yeah, Abraham wasn't under the law of Moses.

02:12:13

That's what he's talking about, Romans three. Where is boasting then? Is it excluded by what law works? Nay, but the law of faith.

02:12:19

Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. What is he telling these

02:12:25

Jews? The law of that's basically a Galatians. These Jews have been practicing

02:12:32

Judaism and they are so brainwashed with Judaism. They are thinking that they still need to keep the law of Moses.

02:12:40

And that's why he's saying that Abraham was justified by faith. He didn't even keep the law of Moses.

02:12:46

It doesn't say faith alone. And so when you're asking a question, you're not answering it.

02:12:52

It doesn't say faith alone. You're right, the word alone is not there. You are absolutely correct.

02:12:58

That's right. I've already admitted that several times. Now, I'm going to ask you the question, Romans four, five.

02:13:03

But to the one who does not work, it doesn't say law, does not work. This is before the law was given.

02:13:12

Pay attention to the text before the law of Moses was given. This is the context before any

02:13:20

Mosaic law. Paul is referencing this historically when he quotes,

02:13:25

Abraham believed God was credited in his righteousness without the law. And there was a law, but that's another topic.

02:13:31

But now the law of Moses. OK, and it says here, but the one who's not work, but believes work.

02:13:37

It's not the issue of law. It's any works. Is that faith alone? If there's no works involved?

02:13:46

Well, who's excluding all works of obedience? Is it faith alone if the works are excluded?

02:13:55

Is it faith alone if all works are excluded? As I said, he's talking about Abraham because these

02:14:04

Jews in in chapter three were boasting. They thought they were special because they were entrusted the oracles of God.

02:14:12

Right. And he uses Abraham. And he says in verse three or what set the scripture,

02:14:17

Abraham believed God and it was counted for him to righteousness. And that's coming from Genesis fifteen six.

02:14:26

OK, we already know that Abraham had already obeyed God. He already was justified. As you say, he had faith in Genesis twelve.

02:14:34

When you go to Hebrews chapter eleven, verse eight, by faith. And then

02:14:40

James two, twenty two, talking about what Abraham did. With his works, but in verse four, now to him that worketh is the reward, not counted of grace or reckoned of grace, but of debt.

02:14:55

So he's telling these people, if you come up with a works based system, a checklist system, a law system in and of itself, it cannot save anyone.

02:15:07

You cannot come up with a works based system. It's got to be a faith based system. He says that work is rewarded, not counted of grace, but of death.

02:15:16

So if you could work your way to heaven, that's not what the Bible teaches. We can't work our way to heaven.

02:15:22

Luke seventeen ten. When we when we do whatever God commands, we're an unprofitable servant.

02:15:28

Verse five, but to him that worketh not, but believeth. What kind of belief is it?

02:15:34

Is it a belief that essential or is a trusting, obedient faith?

02:15:40

Now, you said when you debated Scott that a live faith produces results and people can go back and listen to that at thirty seven minutes.

02:15:51

You told that Scott guy that a living, a live faith produces something. And that's true.

02:15:57

Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. A live faith produces obedience. Yes, it does. Now, here's a question for you.

02:16:04

When Paul speaks of two things, faith and works in verse four. I mean, it's a four verse five and he eliminates works.

02:16:11

Does that leave faith alone? When he eliminates works of the law, it doesn't say works of the law.

02:16:18

I already went over that was Abraham was before the law. Paul's referencing Abraham before the law.

02:16:24

OK, because he quotes Genesis fifteen six. Well, before the law. So two things, two things, faith and works, faith and works and he removing works.

02:16:36

You have two things. You have an apple and an orange. You remove the apple. The orange is alone.

02:16:42

You have two things, a rock and a lamp. You remove the lamp. The rock is alone.

02:16:48

You have two things, faith and works. You remove the works. Is faith alone? Now, what he's removing is what they had confused.

02:16:56

They had work. Then they basically probably didn't even have faith, but they had works first.

02:17:03

And he's removing the works and putting faith and works. That's why James explains it.

02:17:10

And so it is a faith that works. And he's Romans four, five. Can you read

02:17:15

Romans four? Four or five, but to him that worketh not, but believeth in him.

02:17:22

Now, that believer is tied in with Romans. We're staying in the book of Romans, Romans one, five, but whom when we receive grace and a posture for obedience to the faith, and so it is not just a stincher.

02:17:39

You already confirmed that. And so to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justify believing on God who justify is doing what

02:17:52

God says. When you when you're giving examples of people in the hospital, they are not trusting in God because God already told them the plan of salvation.

02:18:01

What we see in the Bible. So believe it on him that justifies the ungodly.

02:18:07

His faith is counted for righteousness. Whose faith? The one that believeth

02:18:13

God, what God says to do. And that's what he's telling these Jews in Romans chapter three.

02:18:20

He says, wherefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. And so he's showing to me that a works based system,

02:18:31

Abraham wasn't even under the law of Moses, right? So Romans four, five, you're saying from your

02:18:38

I took notes what you said. So the one who works not but believes with works because of the belief has to have works.

02:18:47

So the one who works not but believes with works is justified because his faith with works is credited as righteousness because you say the faith has to have works.

02:18:57

So you're saying the one who does not work, but believes with works in God, his faith with works justifies him.

02:19:07

That's what you're saying. You're a heretic. You preach a false gospel and you're helping people go to hell because you're requiring a work, a ceremony and a ritual to be saved.

02:19:17

And I ask you over and over Romans four, five to you to deal with this and you twist the word of God. And when

02:19:22

I put your words back into it, it's pure heresy because what you say is that the works have to have the faith, has to have works,

02:19:29

OK, faith and works. That's what you're saying. What it says here, your understanding is the one who works not but believes with works is the one who justifies us.

02:19:40

His faith with works is credited as righteousness. You have faith in works.

02:19:46

Well, you are teaching a false gospel. You're teaching a false gospel. Well, it wouldn't matter if I even taught false.

02:19:53

If I taught a false gospel, if they're one of the legs, why would it matter? I don't know. You do not understand what you're talking about when you keep bringing up the election stuff, the

02:20:01

Calvinism. You retreat to your ignorance when you get stuck. This is what is happening. I have to call you out on the carpet.

02:20:08

And I do this for everybody who preaches a false gospel. You are asking people that not just believe and be justified by faith when they have faith, but faith when they have good works, good works of salvation.

02:20:20

You deny justificate. I do reject a whole articles on it. I debate James two, 14 through 26.

02:20:28

Justified by works. So you have a problem with Romans. I don't. James is talking about horizontal justification for people.

02:20:36

Yes, go to Romans. Who was around James 2, 18? Who was around Abraham?

02:20:41

Who was watching Abraham? God. But you say man.

02:20:47

Look, James 2, 18. James 2, 18. James 2, 14.

02:20:54

James 2, 18. Someone may well say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without the works.

02:21:00

I'll show you my faith by my works. That's horizontal. It's justification from man to man, person to person, not vertical.

02:21:10

Can faith save you? Is mankind going to save you? No. Look, what shall we say then?

02:21:18

My brother, if someone says he has faith, but he has no work. Can that faith save him? That's what he's saying.

02:21:25

Can that faith save him? Right. If a brother or sister is without clothing and you say be warmed, be filled. What use is that?

02:21:31

Being faith without works is dead. But you, that's what it says here. Faith without works is dead.

02:21:36

Right. But someone may well say to me, you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith by my works. I will show you mine by my works.

02:21:42

See, he's talking about justification for people. You fail to get this. You have the blinders on of the

02:21:48

Church of Christ. It has hamstrung you. You can't run the race because you can't get out of the starting block.

02:21:54

It's in the Bible. No, you say it's in the Bible. It's not in the Bible. When I show you.

02:22:01

Even faith has not works is dead being alone. Yes, the context is justification before people.

02:22:08

There's no one around Abraham. No one was watching Abraham. God was. Look at verse 18.

02:22:14

You show me your faith. I'll show you mine by my works. That's before people.

02:22:21

And so basically what you're saying, though, is if I show people my works,

02:22:27

God will say, we're justified by faith alone in Christ alone because God grants us that belief.

02:22:37

Philippians one twenty nine. If God's going to grant it to us, then it's good enough to save us.

02:22:43

And then because of the regenerative work in God, we do good works, but it's not the good works that contribute to salvation or keep us saved.

02:22:50

See, we're justified by faith when we have faith, not justified by faith. We have faith and go through a ceremony.

02:22:55

You deny justification by faith. You're the one it is. Baptism is a ceremony.

02:23:02

Preaching a ceremony. No. Well, by your definition, a religious act would be preaching.

02:23:10

No, a ceremony is not some religious acts or ceremonies, but not all ceremonies are religious or right reverse.

02:23:22

Baptism, a ceremony in the Bible. We have to define our terms, don't we?

02:23:28

Where is it at in the Bible? Can we define what a ceremony is first? Well, you can define it by showing me what it is in the

02:23:36

Bible. OK, let's go to Genesis in my Bible program. I'm going to look up the word ceremony, see if it even pops up.

02:23:44

Let's see what God says it is. The word ceremony doesn't even occur in the New Testament. Is circumcision a ceremony in the

02:23:51

Bible? Is circumcision a ceremony? So you're going to the Old Testament to try to find baptism.

02:23:57

I correct it. I said the Bible is circumcision a ceremony. You bring up an argument that is not in the

02:24:04

Bible about the ceremony. Dude, is circumcision a ceremony? Who's who's talking about circumcision?

02:24:14

I said what we're defining what a ceremony is. A formal act or series of acts prescribed by ritual protocol or convention.

02:24:23

That's Merriam -Webster Dictionary. The formal activities conducted on some solemn or important public or state occasion, a formal religious or sacred observance, a solemn rite, or a set of acts, often traditional or religious, performed at a formal occasion.

02:24:41

That's what a ceremony is. A circumcision is a ceremony. Can I tell you why you think it's a ceremony, Matt? Because you are basically a denominational.

02:24:49

And what denomination am I? Yeah, you are. No, I'm not. I don't believe in denominations.

02:24:57

OK, whatever. I think they're sinful. I think they're the problem. I'm not a denominationalist.

02:25:03

Well, I'm not a denomination either. You're in the Church of Christ. The Church of Christ. Can you define what a ceremony is?

02:25:11

Oh, you already told me it's circumcision in the Old Testament. But I asked. No, no. I said define what a ceremony is.

02:25:18

Well, you got the definition pulled up, but is it not a religious act? A religious ceremony, a set of things.

02:25:24

And I'm asking you, is circumcision a ceremony? And I'm preaching. It's preaching a ceremony.

02:25:32

You said no, but it's a religious act, is it? OK, a ceremony has a set prescription of acts that are done in a certain way.

02:25:44

I'm going to be performing a marriage ceremony at the end of this month. We have a prescribed set things have done that to be done.

02:25:53

Certain things have to be said. There's going to be a covenant sign given. It's a ceremony.

02:25:59

When I do baptisms, I I do a ceremony. We go through what

02:26:05

Jesus said. I quote what Jesus says and we do it. It's a ceremony. Circumcision is a ceremony.

02:26:12

Doesn't show me in the Bible. So people can see that it wasn't Travis. That's what a ceremony is.

02:26:18

OK, that's what we define it as being. It's OK to define our terms. Bible first Peter four eleven.

02:26:25

Any man speak, let him speak from the oracles of God. You're bringing up you're bringing up theologians.

02:26:31

If we're going to be theologians, I should have said, what is your authority? First off, because the word of God. No, you bring up Webster.

02:26:38

You brought up theologians about the end of Mark 16 or 20.

02:26:44

So that's not the word of God. People can say that you're not consistent. You bring in outside sources to try to justify your positions, man.

02:26:53

I asked you to define what a ceremony was and you wouldn't do it. Because where's the definition in the

02:26:59

Bible of a New Testament baptism as a ceremony and we get to find the nominations, what they do is when they they baptize, they they act like it's a big ceremony.

02:27:09

They get they wait to have a baptism day and they get about 50 people. See, Christians baptize people at midnight, just like an axe.

02:27:18

We baptize for their mission of sins. We don't get a big group of people. It has to be done at midnight.

02:27:24

If if the person wants to be baptized, I didn't say it had to be. I said we would baptize at midnight.

02:27:30

Oh, yeah. So you don't know what a ceremony is then. So you can't show me a ceremony in the

02:27:36

New Testament baptism. I can. Is a communion a ceremony? I just said baptism.

02:27:43

Now you're bringing up. Do you can you hear take off the headset? I said, can you baptism a ceremony?

02:27:50

Great. Baptism as a ceremony. I asked you if when I say baptism as a ceremony, you say, show me where it says it's a ceremony.

02:27:58

And then I say to you, we have to define our terms. You won't even define what a ceremony is. I have to go and you complain that I go outside the

02:28:04

Bible to do that. And you won't even define it. You won't even define it biblically. If you don't want to go to an authority on what terms mean that we use in a debate, then please tell me, according to the scriptures, exactly what a ceremony is.

02:28:19

I don't teach a ceremony because it's not in the Bible. Teach me what a ceremony is in the Bible, period.

02:28:25

Let's see. Do you know what a ceremony is in the Bible? Show me. That's what you require. So do it. I'll show you what they did in Acts chapter two.

02:28:35

They were told to be baptized for the... So baptism is a ceremony.

02:28:42

OK, thanks for admitting it. I asked you to show me a ceremony. You went to Acts 2 .38 to be baptized. So you're now admitting...

02:28:48

I said I can tell you... I asked you to show me what a ceremony was from the Bible. I've been asking you to show me and you can't show me.

02:28:55

I showed you from the dictionary. You complained about that. Baptism as a ceremony.

02:29:01

You can't show me grace alone. You can't show me faith alone. I did show you. We didn't talk about grace alone.

02:29:08

We talked about faith alone and I showed it to you in Romans 4 .5. Romans, I've already showed you in Acts chapter two, verse 10.

02:29:16

The Romans were there on the day of Pentecost. They were already Christians, member of the

02:29:22

Church of Christ. Read Romans 6 .16. The churches of Christ. Tell you what?

02:29:28

It's in the Bible. Here's the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead three days later.

02:29:36

And all who would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. The Bible says that we're justified by faith.

02:29:43

You're justified by faith when you have faith, not when you have to do something else in addition to what

02:29:48

Christ has done and already finished. What you're doing is adding a ceremony, something else.

02:29:54

You're saying that the work of Christ is not finished on the cross and that we're not justified by faith in Christ.

02:29:59

You're saying we're justified by faith in Christ when we go perform something in your particular church body. You're the one teaching a false gospel.

02:30:07

You're the one teaching something that's false by adding a requirement. You add a requirement for salvation.

02:30:13

Closing, all right. I'm closing that you add a requirement for salvation besides faith.

02:30:20

You add something to faith in order to be justified. Since you opened,

02:30:27

I get to close. That's how it officially works. How long do you want? Well, I get to close to do a two minute close.

02:30:36

Then I'll do my close. OK, and you do two minutes. I can do it in two minutes. You do your two minute close.

02:30:45

Well, before I start my closing, though. Hey, I mean, no hard feelings directly towards you,

02:30:54

Matt, OK? Again, it's your doctrine. I try not to attack the person.

02:31:01

So if I come across as I did, I apologize. All right. I'm firm toward what

02:31:09

I believe and you are too, man. So I'm gonna go ahead and start my time as my closing.

02:31:17

All right. Closing two minutes. Hey, again, I appreciate the time again, the viewers.

02:31:23

I want you to get into the word of God. I was going to affirm to the baptism is required for a lost person and went through that.

02:31:31

Clearly what the Bible teaches. I would like to show to from the video that Matt says about faith.

02:31:39

He defines a living faith, a life faith produces something. And that's what I'm I believe that.

02:31:45

But then he changes it and says, basically, you just have to have that faith that you just trust and you don't have to obey, basically.

02:31:53

So the Bible teaches obedience. Hebrews five, nine confirms that they were told on the day of Pentecost, the first gospel message that he brings up the thief on the cross.

02:32:04

But the gospel hadn't even been preached. He hadn't even sent out the Great Commission yet. So he tries to go use that and got all worked up about that.

02:32:12

But that showed that he was not consistent. He says sometimes you can use it. Sometimes you can't.

02:32:17

I'm being very consistent with what the Bible teaches, that a person must hear the word of God. He's confused on that because he says that I don't know how

02:32:26

God does it. How Lydia, how God opened Lydia heart. It was through because she heard the preaching, you know,

02:32:32

Romans 10. How are you going to hear without a preacher unless they are sent?

02:32:37

So you must hear believe. He already says you got to believe. You got to repent, confess and be baptized.

02:32:44

Clearly, I'm teaching what Jesus taught in Mark 16, 16, what Peter taught inspired the

02:32:51

Acts chapter 10, verse 48. They were commanded to be baptized. Acts chapter 11.

02:32:57

The Bible says that words was going to save them. And those words were the message to be baptized because they had to obey the gospel.

02:33:06

The second Thessalonians verse eight and along with Romans chapter six.

02:33:11

So again, thank you for your time. Again, go to your word of the Bible. And again, my phone number is nine three one two six seven nine zero nine five.

02:33:21

Two minutes, man, you're still muted.

02:33:29

Thanks, you continue to add a requirement to salvation other than faith, your baptism in water.

02:33:36

You would say that a person must be baptized. He has to go through this ceremony, go through this ritual in order to complete the finished work of Christ on the cross.

02:33:45

You're saying that faith in Christ is not enough. You're saying that faith in Jesus Christ and trust in Jesus is not enough to save you.

02:33:53

Faith in him is not what justifies us, even though the Bible says, having therefore been justified by faith, Romans five one.

02:33:59

And it says in Romans four five, that the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

02:34:07

Paul is clearly telling us that faith is what credits as righteousness to us, that righteousness comes from God, not from ourselves and not through any ceremonies.

02:34:16

I would urge that anybody and everybody who has any issue and any doubt, let me ask you, is your faith in Christ sufficient because of the object of who your faith is?

02:34:26

Is Christ himself sufficient to save you by your faith and trust in him? Or is it insufficient and you must add something to it, whether it be circumcision, attending church or getting dunked in water.

02:34:39

But the man who believes and trust in Christ, heartfelt confession and faith and trust in Jesus, who then walks across the street to get baptized and gets killed is damned because he didn't complete a ceremony that he had to undergo.

02:34:53

In other words, faith is not enough. We're not justified by faith in his worldview. We're justified by faith and the ceremony.

02:35:00

We're not justified by faith alone in Christ alone, but by faith in Christ and a ceremony and this water baptism.

02:35:07

That's a false gospel. Paul said he was glad he came to preach the gospel and not to baptize in First Corinthians chapter one.

02:35:14

If it's so necessary for the gospel, why is it Paul never, never alluded that it was because it wasn't.

02:35:22

There's my two minutes. We're up. Thanks for coming on.

02:35:29

And by the way, um, you know, I'm sure you and I would get along fine. You're a heretic and I separate the heresy from the individual.

02:35:38

And you're working against the kingdom of God. But it doesn't mean that, you know, you're not a nice guy.

02:35:44

I hope I wasn't too rude to you. Not too rude. I should be rude at all. But I believe you're teaching the false gospel.

02:35:50

And of course, we're both going to get a little uppity. And we did a little bit. And that's just life. So, yeah,

02:35:55

I wish it was probably more organized. But anyways, yeah, all right. This is where the nitty gritty people love it this kind of way anyway.

02:36:06

I didn't strike you blind. We see that in Acts 13. So, yeah. All right.

02:36:11

Well, thanks. I'm going to stay on. If people want to stay, we can talk for a while afterwards. I can't see any of the comments.

02:36:18

You can't see the comments. Oh, I'm still on private. Oh, OK. Yeah, on the right.

02:36:25

Well, before I leave, can I ask the audience if they got any questions or are they ready for me to go?

02:36:31

Ask questions, guys. And I'll read them to you. Can you see what the text is? The chat text? I can now.

02:36:37

OK. Talk about more. I mean, Jehovah's Catholicism in there, 460, becoming gods,

02:36:47

I think they were. They had to have it in a question form. Right. Most of the people are probably your fan group.

02:36:56

And so a lot of them just basically say the same thing. Hey, I appreciate you there, he says,

02:37:04

I seem like a nice guy. Well, well, I try. Yeah, yeah, well, the question is, ask a question to either him or me and then we can say to Travis, you know, blah, blah, blah, question,

02:37:19

Matt question. OK, we'll do it. All right. So.

02:37:26

OK, well, I'm stalling by just filling in the time Travis ever studied.

02:37:32

There's a question for you, Travis, have you ever studied Greek or Hebrew? Is that all the way at the bottom?

02:37:40

It's it's it's there. I don't know what you're seeing exactly. Well, whoever have have I studied

02:37:45

Greek or Hebrew? Well, I believe that the the

02:37:52

English Bible is sufficient. As far as I'm talking about translations and the New King James, King James, English Standard New, basically a word for word translation.

02:38:01

And yet when I preach certain times I'll go in to read pairs and strongs.

02:38:07

But as far as being a a Greek theologian, I would say

02:38:13

Matt probably isn't neither. So but the question was, have you ever studied Greek or Hebrew?

02:38:19

Well, I've looked into a little bit of Greek, but now it's not like I went to school for it. So OK, so you haven't you haven't studied it.

02:38:26

Do you believe you have to? I believe it's helpful if you want to defend a position. Oh, yeah,

02:38:32

I didn't say that. Now, do you do I believe you have to? No, it have to.

02:38:37

It has many different context. Do you have to change a diaper? No. Do you have to if you really want to be a better apologist?

02:38:44

Well, I would say, yeah, OK, so it just depends. So anybody else got a question to Travis?

02:38:50

Do you need to be baptized in Jesus name or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Well, they might have missed that because we've been on so long, but I mentioned and you remember when

02:38:59

I said in Jesus name, in Jesus name means in Acts four by his authority.

02:39:05

And so I believe you don't have to say anything because in Acts chapter two, it wasn't talking to the baptized, the person doing the baptizing, it was talking to the dependent believer.

02:39:16

And they're the ones that have to be baptized in the name, meaning by the authority. So you can say in the name of Jesus, you can say in the name of the

02:39:24

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or you can be silent because as long as the person knows why they're being baptized, that's what the

02:39:30

Bible teaches. And we see that in the Bible. Here's another question, Travis, is Church of Christ, your church related to the

02:39:37

INC, the Iglesia Ni Cristo. It's out of the Philippines. You probably don't know anything about them. I saw something on that on YouTube, several things with that question.

02:39:46

Again, you can take it, however, but I don't have a church. Acts 20, verse seven,

02:39:52

Jesus died for his church. And I'm a member of the Church of the Bible. That's it. Let's see.

02:40:02

Waiting for another question. Let me read them to you. I think

02:40:11

I might see them before you do. So the Church of Christ teaches from the Bible only. We have no other books. Can anyone baptize?

02:40:18

Yes. Anyone can baptize as long as you're saved. Act 238.

02:40:25

Yeah, not a formula for salvation. Doesn't have faith in it. Well, here's one.

02:40:30

Chris says the founders of the Church Christ were baptized into the

02:40:35

Church of Christ. Well, I don't know where he's getting the source. As I said before,

02:40:42

Matthew 16, 18, Jesus said he was going to build his church. So I don't know. The founder of the Church of Christ is

02:40:47

Jesus. It's his church. So, I mean, again, you have to go to the Bible.

02:40:53

If you have these questions, I'm not talking about Wikipedia. I have a book right here that when people bring outside sources right here, traces of the kingdom, it talks about people being members of the

02:41:09

Church of Christ before Wikipedia of Alexander Campbell and all that.

02:41:15

This book here shows that there were congregations of the Church of Christ teaching water baptism or remission of sins before him.

02:41:24

But again, don't sprinkling, pouring or immersion. Is that a question or are you talking about what

02:41:30

I was asking you? Is that sprinkling, pouring or immersion? What they were teaching or what

02:41:37

I believe. What they were teaching. Because, you know,

02:41:45

Jesus was sprinkled at his baptism. And I don't believe that because it says he came up straight way out of the water.

02:41:50

So I've had kids up to their knees in water. I said, get out of the water. I mean, to come up out of the water doesn't mean he was immersed.

02:41:57

Besides that, Jesus says in Matthew 315 that the reason he was baptized was to fulfill all righteousness.

02:42:03

That means to fulfill the Old Testament law. Fulfill what? You go to Numbers chapter four,

02:42:09

Leviticus chapter eight and Exodus twenty nine. And in those chapters, you'll see that in order to be a high priest and Jesus was a high priest,

02:42:16

Matthew six, twenty five. He was not a high priest on earth. In order to be. Yes, he was. In order to be a high priest, he had to be had to be baptized.

02:42:24

Excuse me. Had to be 30 years of age. He was 30. What tribe is he from?

02:42:29

Let me finish. He had to be 30 years of age. He had to have oil anointing on him, which represents the

02:42:35

Holy Spirit. He had to have a verbal blessing given. My beloved son, whom I will please. And according to Numbers eight, seven, he had to be sprinkled with water.

02:42:44

So you can go say with that, but like I said, go look at it.

02:42:50

You go look on his baptism. Does it require immersion? No, it doesn't. I can take you a lot of verses in the

02:42:56

Bible on that. Well, that's another topic for the mission of sins. But anyways, he just got baptized to fulfill the law.

02:43:05

And toward the law, he had to be sprinkled. He could not be a priest on earth.

02:43:11

Yes, he could. He was not from the Levitical priesthood. Jesus was from the true priesthood.

02:43:17

He had to be Levitical. He's the order of Melchizedek. You need to read Hebrews six, seven and eight.

02:43:23

I got it right here. You do study it. He's a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

02:43:28

Hebrews 620 and 725. It says that he's a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

02:43:37

And on earth, it says for the priesthood being changed, there must also be a necessity to change also the law.

02:43:43

So he changed when the law came as a priesthood. But anyway, it says he having become a high priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek, Hebrews 620.

02:43:56

That's Jesus. He's a high priest forever. So he was on the earth to be a priest, a high priest sacrifice.

02:44:02

The priest offers the sacrifice. He was he has three offices, prophet, priest and king.

02:44:09

He's a priest. He offered up himself as a sacrifice. And the sacrifice had to be without blemish.

02:44:16

Deuteronomy 17, one had to be by the priest of the order of Melchizedek, Hebrews 620. So he did this.

02:44:22

He had to fulfill the Old Testament law, which means consistently he was sprinkled. But that's another topic.

02:44:30

And you can go to Hebrews chapter nine, verse 10. No, I was wondering this question this guy asked.

02:44:35

Yeah, well, that's what I was getting on to about what what they asked the viewers.

02:44:45

And check out this folks, this verse, folks, Hebrews 9, 10. The word washings there in Greek is baptismos, baptismos, the cognate of baptism.

02:44:55

This guy's context, you'll see what he's talking about is sprinklings. You're still talking about that. Can we go to the viewers?

02:45:02

John, he says, William Travis, explain John 17, nine.

02:45:08

The Bible says, I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them, which thou hast given me.

02:45:16

For they are mine. That's referring to there is the apostles.

02:45:22

And all mine are thine and thine are mine. And I am glorified in them. I pray not for the world, but for them.

02:45:31

That's how it's given me because I am mine. I don't know what he wants me to explain, but they're given by God by what they do when we read

02:45:39

John chapter six. Just explain that in John five,

02:45:54

John five thirty three. You sent me into John and he bear witness to the truth, but I receive not testimony from man.

02:46:00

But these things I say that you might be saved. And so we see there are the things that he says they might be saved.

02:46:10

Thirty nine, you search the scriptures for in them, you think you have eternal life and they that which testify me and you will not come to me that you might have life.

02:46:20

And so, I mean, I think Jesus is teaching there, too, that you got to come to him and you can search the scriptures.

02:46:31

I don't really quite understand what it's kind of hard sometimes on these questions. I don't know what is in their mind, what they're trying to get out of the question.

02:46:38

That's right. But that's why I say to people, ask the question and the person, Travis, quote, you know, whatever.

02:46:45

What do you think about this in regards to whatever? Yeah, someone asked to a simple question.

02:46:51

Is Travis King James only as well? Well, no, I already said I use word for word translations.

02:46:58

New King James, American standard, new American standard, English standard. But I like the King James. And the reason why I use the

02:47:03

King James is most people in denominations, they think that the King James is the original.

02:47:08

So when I do a lot of my evangelism, I just take the King James. So I don't have to argue about translation, because when you read the

02:47:14

King James, you don't read about a Baptist church. You don't read about a Pentecostal church.

02:47:19

You read about the Church of Christ and what the Bible teaches on that. There's your question about that.

02:47:26

See more real quick, Matt, I'm gonna get off here if you don't see any. All right, that's fine. What else do you have to do to be saved after water baptism?

02:47:42

Well, after water baptism, you're a baby in Christ and you walk by faith and you serve

02:47:48

God. That's a too big of a question.

02:47:55

Alexander Campbell's baptism. Can you explain Ephesians 2, 8, 9, Matt granted a person saved by faith alone.

02:48:02

However, do you distinguish between a true believer and lip service believer? Of course I do. Without baptism, a person can still behave well like a

02:48:09

Buddhist. No, no, no, no offense meant. But I don't think you're really understanding what it is that we teach about these issues, what a true convert is and a false convert.

02:48:18

Baptism doesn't make you a true convert or a false convert. The issue is faith. If baptism is what saved you, then baptism would be the ceremony that regenerates you and makes you saved.

02:48:29

It would be what we call in theology ex opera operata, which means by the doing it is done.

02:48:35

In other words, by the ceremony of performance, a certain spiritual event necessarily occurs.

02:48:41

And what we call that in other terms is sorcery. If you're to say that someone is guaranteed a spiritual result by an earthly performance of a ritual, that we call that witchcraft or sorcery.

02:48:54

This is a serious issue here. There's a whole other level of discussion to be had. OK, Travis asked if Matt is saved.

02:49:04

A couple of questions that come across that I want to answer before I get off. And I answered a lot of these when we were discussing,

02:49:12

I guess we went so long, Travis, explain why the person crossing the street to be baptized or has to say a heart attack on the way to them, baptism isn't saying, well,

02:49:25

I said, you're lost because you're lost in sin. I want to tell you, you come in contact with the precious blood of Jesus and baptism.

02:49:32

And that's why that guy would be lost because he died before he contacted blood. Then this person asked again about the the founders of the

02:49:42

Church of Christ. Well, again, Jesus is the founder. But if someone is baptized in a denomination, they're not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, means by the authority.

02:49:53

So their baptism, they might as well just went swimming because they weren't baptized for their mission of sins.

02:49:58

We see that in Acts chapter 19. And you said someone said, explain Ephesians 2, 8, 9.

02:50:05

Well, again, when we read these epistles, I would ask the question, do you know where the

02:50:10

Ephesians became Christians in the book of Acts? So I want to type that up.

02:50:17

I can or I'm sure Matt knows. Where's the conversion count of the

02:50:25

Ephesians? I wasn't paying attention to you. I'm paying attention to the text.

02:50:32

Well, I think if the viewers are listening, maybe someone can type in where they became Christians. I don't know what context you're talking about.

02:50:40

I know when I became a Christian. No, the Ephesians. I'm talking about when they said explain Ephesians 2, 8, 9.

02:50:47

Again, you're reading like mail to Christians. And so in Ephesians chapter 2, 8, 9, you need to understand where did they become

02:50:56

Christians in Acts. I don't see anyone answering that. So I mean, it's interesting.

02:51:04

So what if a person gets partially dunked in water? Well, William Travis says Acts 19.

02:51:09

And that's correct. They were baptized and they were baptized under John's baptism.

02:51:15

And that's not even valid. So that's kind of like a denominational baptism there. They're baptized, basically not in Jesus name.

02:51:25

What would you say, Matt? Oh, no, it's just technicality of things. If someone gets is intended to get immersed and they go down, but their face for some reason doesn't get immersed, are they saved?

02:51:39

Well, when we when we baptize people, they're immersed. Those who say that for some reason the water doesn't get their face.

02:51:45

You think it does, but it doesn't. And they don't and they're not completely immersed. So then they're not saved. Right. Well, what we do is when we baptize them, we make sure they're immersed.

02:51:54

But yeah, you're you've got to be immersed. That's what the Bible teaches. OK, so if someone were to be intended to be immersed and for some reason their face, just the face, their nose, mouth, chin area doesn't get immersed, then they're not saved.

02:52:10

If that were to happen, right? That's what I said, because you're not immersed. But OK, OK. So then it's it's it's a ceremony that has to be performed in order for salvation to happen in the spiritual realm.

02:52:21

And you have to have a complete dunking because the water itself guarantees now that you get saved.

02:52:28

So there's a regeneration also at the time of water baptism immersion. Well, if someone is preaching a false gospel,

02:52:34

I mean, does someone get regenerated at baptism? When you talk about regenerated to the

02:52:40

Bible doesn't teach like is it the Catholics that teach what do they call it?

02:52:47

Baptism, regeneration, basically, oh, that changes your nature, whatever. That's not bad.

02:52:53

Baptism regeneration just changes your state. This person said have been regenerated before they get immersed.

02:53:00

No, they believe no. So that when they get baptized, the baptism in the water is what regenerates them.

02:53:05

No, it's the blood of Jesus. So but look, someone says, have you studied hermeneutics?

02:53:16

Yes, I've studied that basically means the science of interpretation, how we interpret context.

02:53:23

I said Jesus, Jesus context. Yes, I studied hermeneutics on that.

02:53:29

And that's why I have problems with denominations because they contradict hermeneutics.

02:53:35

So if the ceremony is not done properly, the person can't be saved because they have to be completely immersed.

02:53:41

If only partially immersed, then they're not saved. So it's not a ceremony, but you keep saying it is.

02:53:48

Of course it's a ceremony. Go look on your private time. Go look up the word ceremony in several dictionaries and see what they say.

02:53:55

This person says, can anybody be filled with the Holy Spirit prior to hearing the gospel? Well, I mean, yeah, we understand

02:54:03

John the Baptist from his womb was filled with the spirit. But I don't understand what's that have to do with anything today.

02:54:11

Matt, do you believe the baptism measure happens today? I don't understand the question.

02:54:17

The baptism measure, the outpouring where you hear the sound of the mighty rushing wind speaking in tongues.

02:54:25

You don't have to go into a 30 minute, but do you believe that happens today? I don't know if it does or doesn't.

02:54:33

Okay. This person, I mean, there's some comment. Baptism is simply an outward showing of an inward change.

02:54:41

That's not in the Bible. Brian Brown, you can't find that in the scriptures. Travis, when baptism saves,

02:54:47

I'll remove the heart. Well, I'm about to get off. I don't see any more questions. Explain how is the

02:54:54

COC not a denomination? Well, it's the Church of the Bible.

02:55:00

When you do what the Bible says, you don't become a denomination. You're anti denomination. We're before denominations.

02:55:09

Travis, would you rather be dunked or sprinkled? I'd rather do what the Bible said. Well, Matt, I'm getting out of here.

02:55:15

Hey, viewers, my phone number is nine three one two six seven nine zero nine five. If you want to call and study,

02:55:22

I'll study with you. I'm not going to argue with you. Don't just call and just blurt stuff off.

02:55:27

If you if you want to open the word of God, we'll study it and we'll see what it says.

02:55:33

Hey, you have a good weekend or not even a week. That's right. You, too. Have a good one.

02:55:39

All right. All right. Talk to you later. OK, well,

02:55:47

I've got two hours and fifty five minutes now, Matt. So, OK, well, anybody want to do a little 10, 50 minutes?

02:55:59

Who? So, hey, I don't know if Eli's still around, if you are, if you want to get in.

02:56:12

Wow. I wonder if Zacharias lived long enough to hear the gospel preach.

02:56:21

Yeah. Would you consider anyone who pushes baptismal regeneration as preaching a different gospel? Yes, I would.

02:56:28

Yeah. Yeah. Because he's saying what he's saying is this is the question

02:56:36

I asked that you saw how he him and hawed backwards up and down and trying to get around it. But the issue is, are we justified by faith when we have faith?

02:56:46

We're not. And, you know, he couldn't answer directly. He should have just said, of course not. But then to do that means we're not justified by faith, which the

02:56:54

Bible says. And yet so he can't answer. He had to change faith. What do you mean by faith? Has to be faith with works.

02:57:01

Then, you know, I'm adapting. OK, true faith, true belief, true this just by that.

02:57:07

He still couldn't answer. So, you know, it's pretty sad.

02:57:14

Well, I only found out late in the broadcast there that Travis said he wasn't reading any of the texts that were being posted during most of that.

02:57:26

And I wanted to I was hoping to jump in and let him know that he can go back and look at those and notice some of the articles

02:57:34

I was posting that were topical in that if he read them, he wouldn't make the mistake of mischaracterizing your position on them.

02:57:43

That was unfortunate that he hadn't at least done that much. Yeah. Yeah, well, then you welcome

02:57:54

Bernadette trying to preach the truth. I thought there were several places where he just imploded and just didn't do well.

02:58:05

I got my notes. Let me see my notes. So that's right.

02:58:15

His number. I'll go back and look at his number and I'll call him when it's daylight, wherever he is, and I'll remind

02:58:22

I'll inform him that those those links are there and he can really sharpen up his understanding of some of those topics and then possibly yeah, not give a mischaracterization.

02:58:37

Yeah, which reminds me because someone says, OK, but he should not bring up Calvinism.

02:58:44

He does not know what he's talking about in regard to that. Now, it's not the hardest debate.

02:58:49

I've had a lot of debates. You know, I don't know, Alan, it's a hardest debate.

02:58:55

There are different ways of measuring it hard as in I can't figure out what he's saying hard as in that's a good point to say hard as in it's hard to get an edge wise, but I would say he was quite difficult in that he didn't understand what a ceremony is.

02:59:13

He was inconsistent on various things and how he applied requirements. He would not answer.

02:59:20

We're just by faith when we have faith that just throw him for a loop. The acts, the the thief on the cross thing threw him for a loop, too.

02:59:30

He shouldn't have brought up Calvinism. And what else he said? Yeah, let's see.

02:59:39

Oh, he didn't understand Acts three twenty six to twenty seven, the issue of the tutor, what it means to be a tutor of the law.

02:59:45

He had no clue about federal headship because it's very important for him to study federal headship because he brought up Romans six, three, two, seven.

02:59:51

And federal headship is in there. And without knowing that, you really can't understand what the issues are. And then when

02:59:57

I gave him the question, I said, you know, well, if a man believes in his heart that Christ died, you know, died on the cross, rose from the dead, confessed with his heart, you know, believes, confesses, you know, everything and on the hospital bed dies, he goes to hell or goes across the street, gets baptized, he goes to hell if he dies before he gets baptized.

03:00:16

So, you know, he's contradicting the scripture, which says we're justified by faith, not by faith and a ceremony.

03:00:21

And baptism is a ceremony. When I asked him if the Lord separates a ceremony, he didn't want to say anything. His circumcision is a ceremony.

03:00:28

He doesn't want to say anything because he knows if he says yes, a ceremony. And I'm just going to apply the same principles to the issue of baptism.

03:00:35

So he knows. So what he's purposely doing, in my opinion, is purposely suppressing the truth in order to abide by his denominational error.

03:00:44

That's what I believe is the case with him. He completely failed to understand James two. James two is talking about justification before people, not before God, in verse 18 is the critical verse, which

03:00:54

I quoted to him, he didn't want to listen to it. He doesn't care. And then he mixed up a censure and fiduciary.

03:01:02

What else? You know, it just was unfortunate. Yes, she's a man.

03:01:10

Oh, he was an excellent dancer. When I read

03:01:17

James and I look at the language, it says, you show me and I'll show you. You know, God doesn't enter into the equation there.

03:01:25

God knows already. I mean, it's unfortunate that someone would go there for that purpose.

03:01:32

It's just not doable. Right. Yep. Oh, I get my notes here. Please ask you.

03:01:37

Seven twenty nine. He said, we get my spirit from God, not from Adam. What? I never said that he failed to understand federal headship that Adam represented us.

03:01:47

That's unfortunate because the consequences and the problems caused and initiated by Adam are only understood fully.

03:01:54

And the last Adam, who sets it right? I mean, it's a rich study and it's a wonderful blessing of a study to get into the topic of federal headship and look at all the scriptures that have to do with it.

03:02:07

Oh, man, people would be blessed if they were to dive into that with their Bible, right? Absolutely. And also what verse that I brought up that totally tripped him up.

03:02:20

Remember? Totally. He didn't know what to do with it. Mark four, ten through twelve, the parables, he did not.

03:02:29

He was like it was never in his Bible. He'd never seen it before. He did not know what to do at that point. He really got that wrong.

03:02:36

Well, he's one of a great many people in a great many churches that have avoided really looking deeply into that text because, yeah, it's a difficult test to acknowledge that that he would do that.

03:02:51

And I think from Isaiah there in Mark two, the yeah, yeah, but he applies it to that.

03:02:58

Yeah, sure. Let's see. So what was it? Somebody just asked me a question. It's going to answer it.

03:03:04

What was it? Robert Rodriguez, Jesus said on John's baptism that it was to fulfill all righteousness.

03:03:11

Matt, answer the question. Was that just a ceremony? Well, not sure what the question was, but to say a ceremony, a ceremony is a religious ritual in the context of what we're talking about here in the

03:03:26

Bible, a religious ritual with certain patterns to it. That's what a ritual is.

03:03:31

That's what a ceremony is. And so with baptism, I'm sure that in his church they do it the same way.

03:03:39

They have a set ceremony and how it's done. And so, incidentally,

03:03:45

Robert, the reason Jesus was baptized was to fulfill all righteousness, to fulfill

03:03:50

Old Testament law and in that part of the law, he had to be sprinkled.

03:03:56

Then you go to two numbers, eight, seven. I believe that's it for there. Yeah, if you'll allow me.

03:04:02

Right. I'll drop in a couple of links to those articles on that if they want to study that further.

03:04:09

There they are. Now, Facebook user says, Matt, the Greek word for sprinkle is ratinzo, not baptizo. He's correct.

03:04:15

That's absolutely correct. But a word has a semantic domain. Semantic domain means a range of uses.

03:04:23

Let me show you, for example. OK, let me show you, for example, how baptism can be used in different ways.

03:04:32

OK, so let's see. Let me go to where it is here. I believe

03:04:37

I got a lot of notes, so I got to go find them. Acts one, five,

03:04:43

I believe it is. We see there. Let me see if I got it here.

03:04:48

And for example, check this out. John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the

03:04:54

Holy Spirit. Now, if John was doing this by immersion, so John baptized by immersion with water, you'll be baptized by immersion with the

03:05:02

Holy Spirit, would that be a consistent way to read it? But what's interesting is that when we look at what that meant, baptism of the

03:05:10

Holy Spirit, you'll find out that in the context is talking about pouring forth because the

03:05:18

Holy Spirit is poured forth. And you can see that in Acts 228, I believe it is. And I mean,

03:05:23

Joel 228, along with Acts 1 or 2, 17 and 18, which says this is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Holy Spirit poured forth.

03:05:32

But it's a pouring. And this would talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And so what's interesting is it says

03:05:38

John be baptized with water. If that means immersion, then you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Does that baptism there mean immersion?

03:05:45

It's a question to ask because it's a serious thing. And because in Acts 11, 16, and I remember the word of the

03:05:52

Lord, how we used to say John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Well, the baptism of the

03:05:58

Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And in the Old Testament prophecy of that, it means to be poured forth.

03:06:05

That's what it means. And so when you look at it, you go, OK, does it necessitate that baptism means immersion?

03:06:14

Well, I think sometimes it really implies it. But I think in other times it doesn't, because you can be, you know, he says,

03:06:20

Jesus says, are you willing to be baptized with the baptism that I'm about to undergo? And that meant, you know, the crucifixion.

03:06:26

It doesn't mean immersion by water at that point, clearly. And then you can go to Romans, excuse me,

03:06:34

Hebrews 9, 10, which says that there are washings. And the word washings is baptismos.

03:06:41

And if you read before and after you read the context, the baptismos, the washings, the

03:06:47

Old Testament sprinklings. So when we look at this, you go, OK, well, what's going on?

03:06:52

You know, does baptism just mean immersion? I don't believe it just does. And I believe that we can make a case that it can also include sprinkling because Jesus had to fulfill that law, the

03:07:06

Old Testament law. And the only place I've done the research, the only place where I've ever seen anything to do with water in the requirements for entering into priesthood was in and the priest was in Numbers 8, 7, where they had to be sprinkled with water.

03:07:23

And if Jesus was fulfilling the Old Testament law, if it was by immersion, then please show me immersion in the

03:07:29

Old Testament with water. We don't see it. We see the priests have to be sprinkled with water. So this is why

03:07:34

I hold to the idea that Jesus was sprinkled with water. When someone makes a mistake, they make a mistake regularly.

03:07:40

They come up out of the water. Let me show you something. OK, come up out of the water, right?

03:07:45

Out of the water means you are immersed, right? No, it doesn't. Let me show you. And if you go to Acts chapter 8, see if I can find this quickly.

03:07:56

Let's see, in Acts chapter 8, I'm going to find it because,

03:08:03

I mean, the Ethiopian eunuch, right? And he was returning on his chariot.

03:08:10

He said, how can you guide me? And then he says. I'm scanning through it quickly, they came to water, verse 36, and the eunuch said, look, what prevents me from getting baptized?

03:08:22

So the one who's going to get baptized is the Ethiopian eunuch. And verse 38, and he ordered the chariot to stop and they both went down into the water,

03:08:35

Philip, as well as a eunuch, and he baptized him. Now, wait a minute. If it means they both went into the water and the eunuch was baptized, does that mean that that Philip was baptized because they both were in the water and then he had to come up out of the water.

03:08:52

If they came up out of the water and the argument is they were in the water, that's what it means. It came up out of the water because it says when they came up out of the water, verse 39.

03:09:01

Well, if that's what it means, out of the water means he was baptized and Jesus came up out of the water, it does not necessitate that it was by immersion because then it would have to have meant that Philip was also immersed if they both came up out of the water.

03:09:14

You see, he had buried with him in baptism.

03:09:20

Mary, let me go to that in Romans 6, 4, because there's something really interesting I've not figured out yet.

03:09:27

And notice what it says. Verse three, do you not know that all of us who've been baptized into Christ?

03:09:36

That's interesting, have been baptized into his death. I'm not exactly sure what that means.

03:09:42

Therefore, we have been buried with him through baptism into death. We've been buried with him through baptism.

03:09:50

And what does that mean? Because Jesus was buried 2000 years ago for us.

03:09:56

So if it means we're buried with him in baptism, then are we saying that when we get baptized, that we were then baptized with him then or buried with him then?

03:10:06

These are questions I've thought about this. I go, wait a minute, let's ask some questions because there's more to come here. Therefore, we have been buried with him through baptism into death.

03:10:16

Buried with him. So does baptism by immersion mean, if you want to go immersion, then that it's baptized into his death?

03:10:24

OK, let's just say that. Well, what does it mean to be baptized into his death? Does it mean we died? No, because we don't die.

03:10:31

But there's a spiritual death. Does a baptism signify a spiritual death? I think there's a good case for that.

03:10:38

So that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we, too, might walk in newness of life.

03:10:44

As he was raised, we can walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection.

03:10:55

Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be done away with.

03:11:02

Wait a minute, of this is what gets me. Excuse me, our old self was crucified with Jesus.

03:11:09

When was our old self crucified? Was it crucified when you got baptized?

03:11:16

Or was it crucified when Jesus was crucified? Because this is critical.

03:11:24

And there's so many more questions I could ask this guy. He doesn't understand some theology. But notice what it says.

03:11:32

Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him. But Jesus was crucified 2 ,000 years ago. So how is it our old self was crucified?

03:11:40

The only answer is in federal headship, that he represented us and we were in him. And when he died, we died with him as representation because he was crucified 2 ,000 years ago.

03:11:51

If we're going to say that in our baptism, what a baptism, that's when we were crucified, that doesn't make any sense because it relates the baptism to the being buried.

03:12:01

So when we were crucified 2 ,000 years ago, well, then what is this baptism referring to?

03:12:09

And then it says in verse eight, now we have died with Christ. We believe that we shall also live with him. When did you die with Christ?

03:12:16

Some people want to say would die with Christ when you get circumcised, excuse me, when you get baptized. But the text says we're crucified with him and that's when he died.

03:12:24

So he died with him when he was crucified. That means federal headship representation. So what's baptism talking about here?

03:12:31

I'm not exactly sure now, because when I look at this whole context and I see what's going on,

03:12:36

I'm not exactly sure what it is. If someone wants to say to me, well, baptism means that this is where you died.

03:12:42

Well, then how was it crucified with Christ 2 ,000 years ago? That doesn't make sense. So you see the issues here, whole set of scriptures we could get into.

03:12:53

Oh, Colossians 2 .14, that would have been good to go over with him. That would have been great to see him backpedal on that one.

03:13:09

We are buried in water just like Jesus was placed in the tomb. OK, but was Jesus immersed?

03:13:16

Or was he laying in a hole and a door put over it, a stone?

03:13:23

Because would it be baptism also if there was a room added onto a house and you put a corpse in there and just put a door and seal the door off?

03:13:33

Is that being buried? Yes. Is it an immersion?

03:13:39

No, it's not. And yet that's the identification in the tomb, being buried with him.

03:13:52

Let's see. Running away from Colossae, Matt, deal with the text. What? What text?

03:14:00

I don't see everything everybody's typing. Robert Rodriguez, say what text you want me to look at. And don't say running away from Colossae.

03:14:07

And I've been to Colossae, incidentally. Don't tell me running away. Don't do that. That's just stupid.

03:14:13

Come on. Ask me the question on the text you want me to look at. die with him in repentance.

03:14:23

That doesn't make sense. You don't die with him in repentance. That's not in the scriptures. We are buried with him in baptism.

03:14:29

We receive resurrection power when we're filled with the Holy Spirit. Eh. Could it be that Jesus knew who would come to faith in him?

03:14:35

And so knowing we're all buried with him and he died? Jerry, we could talk about that. In fact, that John the

03:14:42

Baptist baptized Jesus. That's right. So is this guy going to ask me this question about the Colossians? Matt, did

03:14:50

Jesus say the words to you in the church at age 17, or was it just knowing he was there?

03:14:56

I just knew it was no word spoken. It was him. Did you cover 1 Peter 2 21?

03:15:01

Yes, we did. And I got articles written on it on Karma, if you want to get into it. Baptism now saves you.

03:15:08

Right. But the whole context is corresponding to that. Baptism now saves you. What is that referring to?

03:15:14

See, Matt is wrong because my feelings. OK, Timothy Oliver. He'll be accountable to God.

03:15:20

Whoever the he is. Wish I could dialogue with you. Well, there's always my radio show.

03:15:27

And I come on Discord sometimes and have discussions and things like that.

03:15:37

Bottom line, avoid any church that claims we're the only true church. You got that right. Have you ever used an iPhone before?

03:15:43

No, I'm not an iPhone guy. I'm an Android guy. Bottom line of what?

03:15:48

That's right. OK, I'm going to go in five minutes or less. OK, guys, in repentance, we die out of our old way and return to Jesus to go his way.

03:15:58

That's not in Scripture, Mary. We don't die to our own self in repentance. But I know what you probably mean by it.

03:16:08

What we're doing when we repent is we're admitting that we're sinful, we need to stop that. We're doing that.

03:16:14

But we died our old self with Christ because we're crucified with Christ. Do you,

03:16:25

Matt, do you have time for a calm Discord? I've been on this for one, two, three and a half hours.

03:16:36

After this, I'm going to go. You did your live show before this, too.

03:16:42

And I before that did my live show and I've been working real hard all day. So for me, it's been a 12, 13 hour day already.

03:16:51

You were live show. I would say your sin that was canceled two thousand years ago.

03:17:05

OK, OK. Word, you consider it a cult. OK. Adrian Dela Cruz, part of the

03:17:13

Restoration, Matt, no more street preaching videos just haven't been out in a while. That's all. My wife's got medical issues.

03:17:20

We stay here in the house, you know, things like that. I got to get calm going again.

03:17:25

We got a lot of things going on. I am going to go spend time with Nick. I'm starving, too. All right,

03:17:31

I might as well get going. All right, guys, give me one minute. I'm going to close down, OK, unless you've got something really big. Take a break,

03:17:36

Matt. Go be with your fam. Great job as always. Thank you, Tyler. Hey, you got her name spelled right.

03:17:45

Oh, that's right, Joanne Wood. Well, keep you in my prayers, Matt. Get some rest. Thank you. All right, guys.

03:18:00

Well, Lord willing, we'll catch you on your show tomorrow. Hey, thanks a lot for coming on there, Charlie.

03:18:05

Appreciate it. Helping out. OK. I didn't do much, but it was entertaining.

03:18:12

I did ask about John 6, 29 and 30. And we got so many verses to cover. We did cover a lot of stuff.

03:18:18

All right, guys, I'm out of here. May the Lord bless you. OK. And talk to you guys later.