The 33,000 Protestant Denominations Lie Again

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

The False 33,000 Protestant Denominations Claim

Thank you, Mary. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Lots to cover today. I Want to start off by noting I sent an email Through the website at Catholic answers last evening to let Tim Staples know that I was going to be talking about this at the beginning of the program today, so I don't want to Put anything else in the way.

I Would like to address the fact that back in 2007 August of 2007 fact I posted a fairly lengthy discussion of the constant falsehood that Roman Catholic apologists in particular are fond of repeating and that is the 33 ,000 Denominations remark you may recall my comments were primarily focused on Steve Ray who uses this all the time.

His response was infantile and childish and beneath most of adult conversation, but I Sort of wondered if maybe just maybe finally Catholic apologists would break out of this shell they live in where they don't listen to what anybody says in response to them they just keep repeating the same things over and over again and recognize That it might be a good idea to stop repeating that particular falsehood that particular error and Yet just a few days ago right the last program of 2008 There was a phone call to a Catholic answers live and Tim Staples was on let's let's take a listen.

You're not to be able to hear that very well, huh. Thank you for potting that down so everybody's ears are not bleeding. Let's make it so people can hear it. Well this time.

Well, thank you very much. I was talking to one of my Ex-catholic anti-catholic Protestant friends. About the falsehood of Sola Scriptura. Yes. And I brought up the fact that relativism is so insidious in our society now that that there's over 35 or 40 ,000 Protestant denominations, and he laughed and said gee there's only about 500.

I said that well, that's bad enough right. But.

Now I need a reference. Right. Okay, gotcha well a good place to go now here would be Tim's opportunity to say well, you know We've we've always made reference to this one source, but actually when you look at it It it doesn't say that there are 33 ,000 Protestants dominations due to Sola Scriptura or anything else at all and We we have to you know treat this information fairly.

We have to be careful in our use this and this would be the time to say it, but.

Is that what Catholic apologists do to go. Is the Oxford World a Christian Encyclopedia? It's actually called the Oxford. No, it's not that either not the Oxford. It's called the World Christian Encyclopedia, but it's published by Oxford so you often hear it referred to as the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia and It there was a an edition that came out in 1983 and then there's an updated edition that came out in 2001 that that chronicles and and lists a number of them, but 33 ,820 I believe.

Denominators there. Yeah give or take. Another day comes along another few churches right. That's right. And it also you know it identifies about 10 ,000 distinct religions, so it's more than just Talking about Christianity, but it kind of gives you an overview of the world's religions and such and then of course Christianity it breaks down into the various denominations all right.

Now you know you you would think that he might provide some information to his caller. But that's not really what Catholic apologists have been into. I'm gonna go back over what I wrote in August of 2007.

There are people who are new to the program. Maybe they don't read the archives of the blog who has time for that anyways. They're not I'll go and So they they don't remember when I wrote this what I was wearing when I wrote this Etc etc and I went back.

I took time To grab hold of a number of citations to demonstrate that wasn't just making this up. This is something the Catholic apologists claim all the time. For example al cresta in surprised by truth page 266 this would have been the first volume.

I Wondered how Protestantism which has splintered into over 20 ,000 denominations worldwide. Could be what Jesus had in mind in John 17 21 when he said that the world will know that the Father sent the Son by The unity of his disciples.

There you have 20 ,000. This is back in the 90s. Then 1998 Catholic answers. And by the way if you want to go to the August 22nd 2007 blog entry there are links here to go to each of These references if you want to check them out.

Unlike our opponents We do check these things out ourselves. The one thing they reject though is any binding authority outside the Bible. As a result each time a new survey of Christian Denominations comes out there is more division not less today.

There are more than 26 ,000 different denominations sects and independent churches throughout the world. They have split over issues as central as the Lord's Supper and as trivial as what musical instruments may be used at church.

Each Christian Bible in hand must find his own Christian truths. He may choose to rely on the teachings of local pastor a Television evangelist or the formal teachings of denomination, but he is not bound by any of these teachings.

There's ultimately no binding doctrinal authority in his life outside of his personal interpretations of Scripture. That is solo scriptura. Notice how the number is increasing 22 ,000 20 ,000 now 26 ,000.

Of course Tim Staples has been really big in this particular statistical argument for example quote but it but isn't it also telling that since the Reformation just 480 years ago a Reformation claiming solo scriptura as its formal principle there are now over 26 ,000 denominations that have derived from that principle.

The 1982 World Christian Encyclopedia projected in that in that year that there would be 22 ,109 denominations by 1985 the present net increase it noted is 270 denominations each year. Five new ones a week if we extend that projection to our time will have well over 26 ,000 denominations by now.

Then we have envoy magazine and again the source that they are quoting World Christian Encyclopedia the current edition of which is from 2001 here Staples directly cited the source in writing. He just we just listened to him cite it.

What a week ago on Catholic answers live here from? Envoy magazine also from Tim Staples according to Scripture the church is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith. Morals and discipline it is telling the sense of Reformation of almost 500 years ago a Reformation claiming the sole scripture is its formal principle.

There are now over 33 ,000 Protestant denominations and John 10 16 Jesus prophesied there would be one flock one Shepherd reliance and soul. Scripture has not been effective in establishing doctrine or authority.

So note the argument and the use of this source is consistently Related to solo scriptura. Solo scriptura is responsible for all these denominations. Now before I read some more what then logically fairly for people who have any concern about truth at all.

What would be necessary for us to find in this source? Well be necessary to find that these are Protestant dominations. They are traceable to the Protestant Reformation and that these groups All practice solo scriptura and that this is why they've divided this way.

That's what we should find we go there and That's you know. That's the question. Is that what we will find? Now Steve Ray as I mentioned it's it's more and more difficult for me to include Steve Ray in the list of Catholic apologists because he's it's just very difficult to take him seriously enough to even call him an apologist but In his response on the assumption back in 2007 He wrote our source of authority is not the Bible alone.

We can thank God and the Catholic Church for that just look at the mass confusion. This invented doctrine of solo scriptura has inflicted upon Protestants as they've split and scattered into over 33 ,000 different competing groups with Biblical interpretations that go all over the map and then he gives as reference world Christian encyclopedia Oxford University Press 2001 page 10.

By the way, I was looking for a copy of that. The only one in used format was $750 $750. So that's why it's not in my library. Yeah, everybody can grab hold that one. Sure. Yeah, 750 bucks. We've all got that laying around, right?

So Please note Ray gives the direct reference even the page number to which he refers now once you start giving page numbers I say you're accountable for what's on that page. Okay, you need you need to know that you know.

He is directly asserting the 33 ,000 number is about Protestants only. If that number was about non Protestants, then these arguments would sort of lose their weight wouldn't they? He blames solo scriptura for that number.

Notes some more words from Steve Ray now what who knows tomorrow? They may split again and make the first new progressive missionary Baptist Church in the second. And then it will price would again in the newest first new progressive missionary Baptist Church or the holy first new progressive missionary Baptist Church, and then we will add multiple sects that already 33 ,000 Protestant denominations, so what does he say that this source if you go to This particular source you go the world Christian encyclopedia go to page 10.

They will list 33 ,000 Protestant Denominations, that's what we are told Steve Ray then said to Kevin Johnson around the same period of time. Thanks for sharing your name. It was not on the post. I wish I had time to dialogue, but unfortunately I'm swamped and not able to take on detailed debates back in the old days.

I had plenty of time, but such is not the case now. Well. Yeah, when you are dragging old people around Israel all the time you've quite busy. I hope others jump into dialogue with you. One of the problems I face Kevin is that you are one of 33 ,000 denominations that have sprouted out of the Reformation and to take the time to understand the various details of each of you.

Hold with a multitude of beliefs and traditions would be impossible. So Ray keep saying it's 33 ,000 Protestant denominations due to solo script Torah all from the world Christian encyclopedia and Etc etc so The first thing to point out obviously the first error that these men are making Is an error of simple logic.

How does the Roman Catholic apologists go about demonstrating that solo script Torah is the source of these divisions specifically I Mean do they really document this? When we see division the ranks of Rome We see strong Disagreement and key issues may I remind all you American Catholics?

Fifty four percent of your people in the United States voted for the most pro abortion pro Homosexuality presidential candidate ever put forward to the people of the United States of America. Don't talk to me about your unity.

You've got people running around. Promoting everything under the name of Rome is until you clean up your own backyard. Don't talk to us about unity. It's a lie and everybody knows it. Get real. I mean, I think the only reason you keep repeating is so you're trying to convince yourself.

Because you know, it's not true so There's all sorts of these strong disagreements. Does it follow that the Roman Magisterium is insufficient? Well, they don't go there. But logically if they're going to make the argument that differences amongst Protestants are due to solo script Torah.

They would logically have to go there they would logically have to be able to demonstrate that it's not due to well the acceptance of maybe new scriptures or traditions of men or All sorts of things like that that have resulted in divisions.

Which of course is the vast majority of the reason why there are divisions amongst Protestants. It's not because they hold the scripture but because they depart from scripture. It's not because they practice solo scripture it's because they ignore solo script Torah and.

So it is a simple error in logic that we need to be able to explain to our Roman Catholic friends. That this attack. No matter how popular it is with Tim Staples or Patrick Madrid or anybody else, you know blueprint for anarchy and so on and so forth.

That that is simply not a logical direction but to get to the main issue because I do want to go on to other things today. The fact of matter is to claim that this source teaches what they say is a lie l ie it is dishonest.

It is it would be like me. Citing the Catholic Catechism and saying the Catholic Catechism says that you should all bow down and worship the Pope as God. Page 472. Then you go to page 472. It says nothing of the kind that means it's a lie.

And that's exactly what Tim Staples and Patrick Madrid and Steve Ray all these people who keep repeating this number are Lying to you. It's not that I mean Eric Svensson point this out a long time ago and on the slippery rock I've put on my blog the information's out there.

You can look at the very scans of the pages yourself and see. For if you go to page 10 the very source cited by Steve Ray and the others. You'll read global Christianity Had and then there's two numbers given.

The first number is from 1970 the second from the year 2000. I'll just give you the 2000 numbers. 33 ,000 820 denominations slash para denominations with three million four hundred forty five thousand congregations slash churches composed of 1 ,000 888 million affiliated Christians.

Dichotomized into the two global categories below and those two global categorizations are denominational ism and post-denominational ism. So what you need to recognize if you'll read the source is That the thirty three thousand eight hundred twenty number used by Ray Staples other Roman Catholic apologists combines all denominations included in both lists.

But if they would just do a little more reading They would have discovered that this is not a listing of denominations arising from the Protestant Reformation. Though again for clarity. I know that is exactly the claim of Steve Ray 21990 of these denominations are in the post-denominational ism category eleven thousand eight hundred thirty in the denominational and Please realize the denominational number includes Roman Catholics Orthodox and Protestants.

In fact amazingly this source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations so the next time one of these guys decides they're gonna throw this out and Misrepresent it say. Oh, so you accept that there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations, right?

What do you mean the same source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations. If you are going to use this source, then you must admit there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations. Oh. But we're all one. Well, then you better stop using this source, what do you think.

Hmm, okay? Now if if these ever so careful researchers Had bothered to read on to page 16. They would have discovered that this source lists 781 Orthodox denominations that is Eastern Orthodoxy predicting 887 for 2025 and the 242 Roman Catholic denominations predicting 245 for 2025.

Did either these groups arise at the nominate out of the Reformation as Steve Ray claims. Well, of course not. Instead continuing on page 16. The overarching group Protestant is listed as having 8 ,000 973 denominations in 2000 predicting 9 ,490 by 2025 if we stop right there That means that Steve Ray and Tim stables are off by 24 ,000 denominations in their off repeated claims.

That is the actual number in the source is only 27 of the number they give and you know how they respond to that. Well, that's still too much. I Mean talk about politicians. Okay, you caught me lying, but but that number is still too big.

That's what these guys do it's absolutely incredible they are inflating the number by more than 300 Why. Are they going on secondhand references if there's not looked it up themselves. Are they being dishonest?

They just don't care about the factuality of their statements. We don't know because they won't answer these questions but that's not even the entire picture folks as You begin to look through what this source lists as Protestant denominations.

You discover that they include Non-trinitarian groups such as the oneness denominations as well as other groups like the Seventh-day Adventists. Some of the other denominations listed openly embrace Revelation in the modern period hence meaning that they would hardly hold any meaningful doctrine or soul scripture to begin with.

After the Protestant groups you have independent groups followed by marginal Christian groups. But all of these are added in the thirty three thousand eight hundred and twenty number, please realize this includes Gnostics Mormons 122 denominations worth and Jehovah's Witnesses 228 denominations worth.

Oh, yeah, the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are due to sola scriptura right. So you really have to ask the question Have these guys ever even look this stuff up or did one person look it up grabbed a few numbers out ignored everything else?

And now they're just repeating it over and over and over again and They know that their audience Isn't gonna know they're not gonna check them out. They're not gonna look and so I can get away with this dishonesty and not even Not even worry about it.

That's the question and I really have to wonder I've you know, like I said, I wrote to Tim Staples and he may not be in the office today. I Would be happy I'm saying right now Mr. Staples if you want to come on the dividing line and defend the thirty three thousand Denominations number against the actual facts that you present in Catholic answers life.

We will be glad to have you as our guest. We will open it up to you. Let us know what you want to be on or you can come on to say, you know, what I was wrong. I Am in error. I will never use the 33 ,000 denominations number again and I will let people know on Catholic answers live that I've been wrong about that all along.

That would be an even better thing. That would be wonderful. Up to mr. Dr. Mr. Staples lines are open eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. So if mr. Staples would like to call Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one be happy to.

I would like to hear a defense of how many times Tim Staples has gone into print in multiple sources and on the Catholic answers live radio program and in in seminars all across the world and Has misled every single person you ever said it to.

I'd like to know how you defend that so I really wonder also if Assign the fact that very clearly the divisions noted in the source are not due to solo scriptura. Unless you're gonna argue. Yeah. Well if y 'all just follow the Pope there'd only be one church see.

There are people that actually think that that's how it should work, yeah, okay, but do they do they also Know the next page in the source that they are so dependent upon page 11. There's a chart there.

Relating in fact, I provided the chart in one of the other blog entries. I scanned it PDF we find a chart relating to martyrs during the history of Christendom and In that in this in the second section of the chart it lists who was responsible for killing the martyrs down through the history of the world secular governments and atheists score real big thanks to The Soviet Union obviously with fifty five million five hundred ninety seven thousand and thirty one million five hundred nineteen thousand respectively.

The Muslims are high performers on the martyr production scale as well with nine million one hundred and one thousand to their credit. Animus come in fourth with seven million four hundred and sixty nine thousand and guess who is number five on the Martyr producing hit parade.

Yep, the Roman Catholic Church with four million nine hundred and fifty one thousand martyrs to her credit. I Wonder if Tim Staples and Steve Ray Quote that statistic which is on the very next page of the source that they use as a bat to beat Protestants over the head with quite regularly hmm.

Probably not. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is a toll-free number and right now. It's the only word I see on my screen is Idle, which means there's nobody there the phones the phones working. Once the phones are working.

Yeah, you're sure about that. Let's let's let's find out you want it want. Bring that one up. We got make sure you get the dial tone there. It's working that's that's the dial tone. Yeah, nobody calling.

Well, there you go, I once again call on Roman Catholics. I Call on the honest Roman Catholics, you know, sometimes we have honest Roman Catholics come into our chat channel and We chat with them about things.

I call upon you to contact these men and to beg them. Stop giving us a black eye. Stop demonstrating that you don't do your homework. You don't listen to what anybody else says. That as long as it can be used in defense of Mama Rome.

You will use anything no matter how badly out of context you're taking it. Stop doing it. Please. You're embarrassing us. I'd like to ask you to contact them and see what they say. See if they respond like Steve Ray.

Because Steve Ray's response this reputation was infantile Infantile Joe way to describe it. How will Tim Staples respond? I don't know. It's been you know, it was August of 2007. It's been a year and a half.

Does he even know about it? Probably not. I doubt I doubt again. My experience has been These folks don't care about what other people are saying. They're doing their thing. They're doing their their, you know, they're they're taking they're doing their conferences and Who cares, you know as long as my audience is happy and given that's that's life so We'll get the phone lines open but you know, who knows whether we'll hear from anybody a Gentleman sent in a collector's edition shifting gears now, by the way of the US News and World Report secrets of the Bible and This is nothing but anti-christian rhetoric.

Recovering Christianity's pagan past pure unadulterated stupidity about comparative religion stuff same type of stuff you get on YouTube and the guy Zeitgeist movie and all this kind of silliness. Obviously no attempt for balancer.

This is anti-christian publication. This is what the media is all about and I don't know about you, but I've certainly noticed an acceleration in the movement of popular culture toward a hatred of Christianity and a willingness to lie about it misrepresent it attack it.

Make it. So that we are reversing we are turning upside down The morals of Western society so that one what was once good Heterosexual marriage having children Having a family with a father and a mother and children and a stable family all that stuff is now the bad thing now the good thing is free sex and homosexual marriage and Only worry about yourself and and your 401k and don't worry about family and you know, that's that's where our culture seems to be seems to be headed and As a result because of The existence of the Internet which we are using to speak the truth.

Others can use it to speak lies and they do so with regularity and it's because of this that bad bad argumentation is being repeated with such Regularity this this drumbeat of repetition is so strong That you need to realize that one of the greatest difficulties we are facing today in dealing with proclaiming the gospel is to deal with These individuals in our society who have had this stuff pounded into their heads.

They graduate from our colleges. They graduate from our high schools. They graduate from our junior high schools. Believing that the Bible is a compilation of pagan mythology and so as a result We have to know more than ever why these arguments are a lie why they are Wrong, and that's why we engage People we engage John Dominic Crossan and his perspectives.

We've engaged John Shelby Spong in Barely two weeks from now. I'll be debating. Dr. Bart Ehrman in Fort Lauderdale, Florida on this particular subject and I believe it is very important people who think that apologetics in our day can be separated from Evangelism just don't understand the context in which the church ministers today.

When you live in an anti Christian society. Then we need to be able to present the evangel in such a fashion as to make it understandable so with That having been said What I wish to do in the rest of the program today after we take our break here is I'm going to talk a little bit about the use of Bart Ehrman's material.

And then I'm going to start playing a program. I listened to a couple days ago where the infidel guy interviewed Bart Ehrman back in 2007. October of 2007 I Found it fascinating for many many reasons as when I break in I will explain.

But I think it'll be very very helpful to you. We're not going to continue the King James program because there just isn't anything more to be said about it. All they did was spin in circles from that point and say it's all of faith.

It's all of faith. It's all of faith. They don't want to dialogue. They don't want to respond to the questions, so we're going to move on. Their position has been refuted it stands refuted if they ever want to get around to trying to rehabilitate themselves fine great and wonderful, but There are things to be discussing so we're gonna take our break be right back right after this.

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Bart Ehrman, Textual Criticism, and the Reliability of the New Testament

Welcome back to the dividing line about a year or so ago when I and we've got some phone calls. But I have no clue what the question of either one is. So once we get some clarification, we'll see if it sort of fits in but we're gonna be talking about Airmen and Atheism and if it's not on that subject and you're not name isn't Tim Staples then don't even worry about.

I really like to try to stay consistent with the topic a little bit today. Back when we first announced the subject of the debate coming up in January with Bart Ehrman I Played a clip and I tracked it down because I felt it was relevant.

This is from a online debate that took place on with Christopher Hitchens and Oh, what's the guy's name? He's a conservative talk show host PCA elder attorney Hugh Hugh Hugh it that's right. It was on a huge show and I remember listening to the discussion when Hitchens brought up airmen to listen listen to how airmen's materials are understood by this inveterate detester of.

The Christian faith. But there isn't a trespassing on the territory a trustworthy word as you in in any of the gospels that you could. Now he keeps calling him Burton.

A Barton or something Burton, I think actually it sounded like Burton there and it's Barton in his book too. That's not his name actually. It's Bart Ehrman. But anyway. But notice what he says, there's there's not a single Historical word in all the Gospels if you just read Bart Ehrman, I've read Bart Ehrman.

I'm so sick reading Bart Ehrman I don't know which ends up. I've listened to almost everything Bart Ehrman's ever recorded. As of now I could give you Bart Ehrman's opening statements. Right now very very easily and that's not what he's saying.

In fact, I'm thankful that the paperback edition of misquoting Jesus came out because in the paperback edition there is a discussion of You know questions that have come up because the book basically so it's an expansion and There's a question about Bruce Metzger because obviously Ehrman studied under Metzger at Princeton and It was fascinating to read Ehrman saying that He and Metzger would probably not disagree over more than maybe a dozen readings in the entirety of the New Testament an entirety of the New Testament so you've got the one side and yet when people want to disbelieve They will hear what they want to hear even if that's not what Ehrman himself is actually saying.

Now I fault Ehrman for this he purposefully wants to inculcate that idea, but he's very careful about how he does it. When he tells the students I tell my students all the time there are more textual variants in our words in the New Testament.

Well, what does that mean? I know what it means. But a person without a background in textual critical studies Thinks of what that means is when you find out there's 400 ,000 variants 130 ,000 106 two words in the New Testament you go that means there's three different ways of reading every word in the New Testament that that's Not what Ehrman means, but he should know and I believe he does know that that is what people hear him saying.

But he knows that's not what he is saying. He knows there are entire Swaths of the New Testament without a single variant to be found in them. He knows that and Many of the variants that he likes to point out only have one or two manuscripts that support them if it wasn't for Codex Beze Codex D and Miniscule 1739 a lot of his examples will simply disappear.

But I know that and you as this listening audience probably know that but the vast Majority of his students who read his works don't know that and They end up sounding like Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens is wrong.

The Hitchens doesn't know anything about all this stuff. It came back up later in the debate I turned to Bart Ehrman he figures prominently in Christopher Hitchens book. He figures prominently in Mark Roberts book Christopher Hitchens.

What do you find so appealing about Bart Ehrman?

Well, I find it's what Bertrand Russell used to call The argument of evidence against interest or as my friend you probably know him John O'Sullivan Yes says to the Pope says he believes in God. He's only doing his job if he says he doesn't believe in God he may be on to something to keep up his belief and He appears to have been to my partner's field of expertise, but to be quite renowned In the in the believing Christian community.

I'm right. Am I not insane this Mark Roberts? Hey, he is a is a well-regarded scholar and he came to the conclusion that it was mythical now.

That was a very very frustrating debate to listen to Mark Roberts just is far too nice to even be doing debates. What he should have said is well, actually, dr. Herman is not in the Christian community.

He is not a believer he is a happy agnostic and he is very opposed to the claims of Christianity and and is You know certainly considered to be a well-known scholar. But he's not the only one out there and in fact the vast majority of Christian scholars who study textual critical issues do not come to his conclusions in losing faith in the text of the Bible and so.

But you can hear how how he is used by Christopher Hitchens. So what I was listening to what I wanted to get to really get a start here in the program is I was listening to it's an hour. It's it's over an hour long.

An hour and five minutes long. I cut off a little bit of the beginning, but this is a webcast with the infidel guy and I'll be perfectly honest with you. I have I had no idea who the infidel guy was. I had heard of him.

I knew that Jean Scott or Jean cook. That was purposeful at that time. I can't do it nearly as well as when I really do mess up. But I knew the Jean cook has had him on and they've gone back and forth and stuff like that, but I've never heard The infidel guy before and Someone said hey, did you know someone came in the channel and it was sort of like yesterday?

I was deluged with people saying hey, did you know that Bart Ehrman was on Justin Briarley's program? Premiere radio in London, you know same one you were on and yes. Yes after about six or seventh one.

Yes I've got it downloaded. I'm gonna be listening to it on my ride today. All will be well. I appreciate everybody doing that somebody came in the channels. Hey, did you see this and It was a program that took place in 2007 Where the infidel guy I think it's Reggie Finley is his name or something like that is interviewing Bart Ehrman.

So I listened to this and I'll be perfect honest I'm not trying to be disrespectful but but just listening to the program having never. Having no knowledge of what the guy's name was or anything about him as I listen to the program I assumed that the infidel guy was about 17 or 18 years of age.

Yesterday when I went on the website, I started looking around and saw that he was somehow serving with the UN in Like Kosovo in 1994 in the military that sort of tells me he's not 17 or 18 years of age.

But as I listened there's there's a couple things. First of all was fascinating to me was to listen to Bart Ehrman talking to someone who's more liberal than he is more anti-theistic than he is. Because it's sort of like, you know.

Sometimes when you're looking at something from only one direction light coming from only one way there are certain aspects of it you just can't get to know until the light switches and now it's coming from the other direction and Here we have Ehrman at one point.

They start debating because the infidel guy doesn't even believe Jesus ever existed and Ehrman rightly says I don't know any serious scholars and as soon as he says that Then the infidel guy gets upset because he's had all sorts of people he thinks are serious scholars like Robert Price on his program Questioning the very existence of Jesus and so it's fascinating to hear Ehrman dealing with someone to his left.