2024 Summer of Interviews: Rochadd Hendrix Interview: Why Should Lay People Study Theology? (Part 2)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth and today is part two of Pastor Pat Abendroth, Tuesday Steve Guy and myself, Mike Abendroth, in a Q &A we had during the adult Sunday school hour at Bethlehem Bible Church last week of August in 2022.

Don�t forget the Israel trip. My side, you better sign up now or I�m going to send my extra spots to Pat. I think you have five extra spots. You can go online and find some of that Israel information or email me, mike, at nocompromiseradio .com.

The new book, Gospel Assurance, should be out on Amazon soon. The website�s there, but I won�t allow it to ship until I okay that, a few more changes, and we�re good to go. I hope you enjoy today, Pastor Pat, myself, and Tuesday Guy.

Of just preaching law only some Sunday and don�t even close in prayer, just close the Bible and walk out. You know, I don�t want to do it because we�re gospel preachers, but for effect, to just lay it out there.

You know what? Apart from you being perfect, you�ve already committed enough sins today to go to hell, and you do every day and every second, and there�s no hope for you. Have a nice day. I mean, that�s God�s righteousness, and it�s good.

And so, we need to come to grips with that, I think.

You are sinners in the hands of an angry God. You are dismissed.

What�s for lunch?

Alright, Pat, deeper question. Was Jesus submissive to the Father prior to the Incarnation? If not, then how are we to understand passages that tell us the Father sent the Son?

Okay.

So, I think the answer to the first part of it is no. Jesus was not submissive to the Father prior to the Incarnation because that would be an ancient heresy. But it is promoted today by EFS, the Eternal Functional Subordination of the Son Movement, so that would be Wayne Grudem, and that would be Owen Strand, and that would be Bruce Ware, the father-in-law to Owen Strand and others.

And I�ve thought that before because we�re doing Confessions with Steve.

It�s my new podcast.

Okay. Right?

As Happy Days was to Laverne and Shirley, so No Compromise was to Confessions with Steve.

Confessions with Steve, right? We have this thing on the pactum called the Pactum Absolvum, so maybe this is the Pactum Absolvum. And we have a Pactum Sofa, too, so we�ll have to have Steve�s sofa.

Okay.

So, it�s important, and I know that�s why Steve asked the question, it�s important that we remember Jesus submitted, but he submitted in the Incarnation and coming to earth. And that�s important in history because there�s been a big debate over whether or not Jesus is divine.

Is he truly the eternal God, the second person of the Godhead? And that�s why people before us have said things carefully like very God of very God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father, full of grace and truth.

All this verbiage is to protect the absolute equality of the Son with the Father. He�s just as divine as the Father is. Same with the Spirit. It�s a lot of bloodshed over this, a lot of struggle and persecution over this.

It�s Trinitarianism 101. So if you are a Christian, you�re a Trinitarian. If you�re a Trinitarian in any kind of old, classic, Nicene, ancient sense, you don�t think that Jesus submitted to the Father before the Incarnation.

That�s what I�m saying. That�s what we would all say. So with that, because think about it, when he comes to earth, he humbles himself. That�s extraordinary. Like the Bible emphasizes that, like isn�t it amazing in Philippians chapter 2 that he humbled himself and became a human being?

Well that wouldn�t be so amazing if he�d been humbling himself all along. No, this is different incarnation. He humbled himself and took on the form of a man and he suffered an even death on a cross. So that�s the extraordinary.

It�s not like, �Well, this is how it�s always been. Before the foundation of the world, this is how it was. No, it�s special, it�s.

Unique.

So we have to keep that in mind. That�s kind of the way Christians have understood it, but we�ve fallen asleep at the wheel, so to speak. We say, �We�re Biblicists. We don�t need church history. We don�t need theological history.

It�s me, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit, and I�ll just make this up as I go, because I believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, the sufficiency of Pat, and my favorite celebrity Christians who are my confessions.

We�ve kind of lost our way, so I�m sorry, going on a rant now, but dangerous times, so let�s just say we�re wrong and then move on. I was wrong.

Again, confessions with Steve.

That�s right. It all comes back to that. I avoided the last part, because Mike was just itching to use theological verbiage. How could he obey the Father?

Right.

Well, one of the things, I think, is why do we mess with the Trinity?

There are reasons.

People do things for reasons. So I think they�re messing with the Trinity because they need reinforcements to cultural problems. Here�s a cultural problem. Since the culture says men and women are equal, functionally, relationally, everything else are equal, then how can we have roles where the wife submits to the husband?

It�s difficult. That�s a hard word, right? You were going to do the Fonzie word on �wrong. He can�t say the word �wrong. I don�t think Fonzie could say �submit either. I mean, wife, submit to your husbands.

When I officiate weddings, and I know there�s a bunch of unbelievers there, and I say to the wife, �Do you promise to submit to your husband The people are looking around, like, what are they doing?

So wouldn�t this make it easier? Jesus has always submitted to the Father. Jesus is equal to the Father. It�s okay, wife, submit to your husbands because Jesus submitted to the Father and eternity passed.

It just makes it easier. So that�s, I think, why they�re tinkering with it. And we don�t need that in order to teach there are roles in a family. We�re equal in Christ, Galatians 3, but we have different functions in the church and at home.

Do you think maybe it makes it easier for us to sort of understand the Trinity if we establish an eternal hierarchy? And, you know, well, it does say that the Son is of the Father and the Spirit is of the Father and is sent by the Son.

And so isn�t it easier if we just go one, two, three?

Way easier.

And I�ve been told that if you talk about the Trinity for more than two minutes, you�re bound to say something heretical. So I just go really slowly.

Jesus is God.

The Father is God. But what happens is we hear the word Father and Son, we always think the word Father means greater than the Son. And these are relational terms. We have to make sure we think biblically.

The Father in life starts off as a Son, becomes a Father. Did the Father in heaven start off as a Son and become a Father?

No.

And these are just relational terms. The Son doesn�t submit to the Father eternally, but in the Incarnation he does. Whatever you will, let your will be done. In eternity past, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, in an eternal council, they didn�t set down, but in an eternal council, the Father with the Son and the Spirit decided that it was right for the Son to go rescue the elect, the Spirit to apply that work, and the Father to send him.

But it wasn�t, �Oh, I�m underneath you, I go. No, this was a triune council. It wasn�t the Father�s council, it was a triune God�s council. Something that I think Pat calls the Pactum. You have to listen to the Pactum.

It�s on Apple Podcasts and the Pactum .org.

Easy to find.

I�m going to ask Pat a simple yes or no question. Will the Son, Jesus Christ, will he rule in heaven eternally as a man by the power of the Holy Spirit only? Or will he reassume his full deity?

I think the answer is yes.

He will rule as a man by the power of the Holy Spirit. Forever and ever.

He�s the God-man, and I think he�ll always be the God-man. I don�t know. I think that�s right. I�ve learned enough to know. You better be really careful when you talk about this stuff. Let me check my notes.

So if you don�t know the answer to the question, you go with what you know. We know Jesus is in heaven now. The language is of prominence, honor, seated at the right hand of the Father, etc. We know he still has a human body, correct?

He probably has five wounds. Some, I think Calvin said he doesn�t have any wounds anymore because it�s a glorified body, but on earth, glorified body, you could still see right in John 21, I believe, that he had the wounds on his hands and his feet and his side.

He, his human nature, is ruling there in heaven, and his divine nature is everywhere, right? Is Jesus here now? Lo, I�m with you always, even at the end of the age. Well, his divine nature is everywhere.

His human nature is in heaven, and you think, how does that work out?

That is 1 Timothy 3.

Great is the mystery of godliness. The whole idea of the incarnation is very, very difficult. I think the Father with the Son and the Spirit are there in heaven. Jesus has a body. What does that look like when we get there?

I see Revelation 4 and 5. The center of everything is the Lamb on the throne. And so if you have to see God, who is unseeable because he�s a spirit, the only way you could see God is by seeing the Son.

So my guess is we�re going to get to heaven, and all the fullness of the deity dwells in bodily form in Christ, and we will see Jesus, the Lamb, standing as if slain.

So here�s a question that a lot of people struggle with, including my own Reformation study Bible. Is sanctification monergistic or synergistic, and why?

You�re looking at me?

Yeah.

Well, since I�ve just listened to Mike talk about it, to pontificate about it, no. It�s monergistic. God sanctifies. God saves. God does everything. There�s fruit that results. We�re called to action, yes, but God is the one who sanctifies.

You have been sanctified. It�s something he does on our behalf. 1 Corinthians chapter 6 would be one example. So, he�s the author and perfecter of our faith. Everything from A to Z is what God does.

Okay.

And Mike, why do you suppose it�s such a difficult issue for theologians and pastors to get right, if you�re right, that it�s monergistic?

In church history since Reformation, most have taught that God alone is the sanctifier, and we know God alone regenerates, right? It�s a work of God alone. He has to do the work. So, what about sanctification?

The problem comes, Steve, as you know, if we say sanctification is all of God, then I somehow infer that I don�t have to do anything. And what we�re trying to say is the language of the Bible and the theological concepts in the Bible are God is the one sanctifying.

Even Jesus prays to the Father, �Sanctify them in truth. Father, would you do the sanctifying? 1 Thessalonians 5, about the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. God sanctifies. I mean, can you imagine, to quote Pat Abendroth, you�re not going to get up to heaven and fist bump God and say, �We did it.

In justification, sanctification, or glorification, it�s all the work of God. So, God sanctifies, and there is a response. The response is faith. We believe it�s true. We understand that it�s happening, even though we can�t see it.

Mother, am I growing? And she puts the little pencil thing above your head, three foot two, and I�m praying.

To be six six.

I could be a point guard in the NBA and guard Magic Johnson and all that. Didn�t work out. Our response is faith, and then our response is obedience and holy living. And so what we�re trying to say is, sanctification is a word used of God.

And we reply with holy living. And again, work, sweat, toil, etc.

Sometimes, don�t you think, it�s just a, not always, but it�s a verbiage mistake? In our day.

Our default is when we say sanctification, we�re talking about saying no to sin, loving our wives sacrificially, and so that�s why I don�t go around correcting everybody who says it. But strictly speaking, when you read John Owen, who is writing a lot about saying no to sin, killing it, and he writes a lot about obedience, a lot, he still says sanctification is God�s work alone.

Because when you read sanctification passages, that�s what�s happening. God set us apart initially, and then now He�s working in us. Right? And so Philippians 2 is true, but it doesn�t teach synergistic.

We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Because the second part is the part where God does the work and we respond to His work. So just like with regeneration of faith, which one comes first?

Well, God regenerates and gives us faith. And God then sanctifies us and we respond with good works that He�s prepared beforehand. And even that�s by faith. Did you know God has prepared good works for you to walk in, dear Christian?

How do you know that? Because the Bible says it, so I walk by faith. Sanctification is also by faith. Then hard work.

But it doesn�t mean we�re passive in the Christian life.

Correct. We�re just enabled to obey. God renews us. He gives us the ability to do it, because how could we ever say no to sin on our own? I�m good at polluting myself, but I can�t, if I thought, okay, let�s make it practical.

I�d like to, Kim�s coming home in a couple days, I�d like to love her more than I have in the past. And I�m thinking, I can�t wait to see her and I want to express my love to her. And I want to, you know, here�s what we�re going to do now.

And I�m ready to do all these things. Well, if I believe that God was the sanctifier, I�d probably say something like this. Lord, I�ve had all kinds of resolutions to love my wife better throughout the years.

Not many of them have worked. Zero of them have worked. Would you please help me?

Right?

The person that knows that God is the sanctifier depends on God and his grace. And then if I do anything good toward her or someone else, then I could say, thank you for enabling me to do that. So it both gives us the power and the thankfulness versus we�re doing it together.

But the nomenclature of the world is we do it together. I�m not going to correct every person, but technically speaking, sanctification is modern justice.

So then, this is helpful, I think. Then, therefore, if you see some progress in your loving of Kim, what will you do when you�re praying? You won�t say, God, thank you that I�m good at being sanctified myself.

I thank you that I�m not like other husbands.

At least I�m better than Pat.

But it shows when you say, Lord, thank you for helping me. I�m encouraged by the fruitfulness in my life. Well, by you thanking him, you�re acknowledging that you think God is the sanctifier.

It�s kind of funny, like the Spurgeon address, the prayer that the Armenian would never pray. Dear God, I came to faith by what I did and kind of how you helped me. Even Armenians know. Or if you have an unbeliever, a family member who�s not saved, how do you pray for them?

You pray. Lord, save them. That�s God alone. Save them. And I think maybe that�s the missing element in Christian holy living, is forgetting that God is the sanctifier. And what we ought to do is say, Lord, I really need your help to do this.

Because it is hard to say no to self and yes to righteousness. Help me. And I think that�s a prayer God honors.

Good.

All right. Pat, other than the Bible, what book has had the most impact on you in the last 10 years?

Christless Christianity by Michael Horton. Without any question. You want me to elaborate?

Yes, please.

Okay.

So I think what that book does is, anybody read that book? Christless Christianity? Super helpful, because at a popular level, I think Michael Horton teaches law and gospel and the distinction why they�re both important.

And why when you blur law and gospel, you have Gospel. And you ruin law, God�s strict requirement. And you ruin gospel, God�s gracious provision of salvation. Both are vital. Both are important. But don�t blur them.

Because when you do, it�s called legalism. And I like what Michael Horton does in the book. He points out that a lot of people who are rank legalists, we would never think of as legalists. So when you listen to Joel Osteen with the million dollar smile, making everybody feel good, and he�s like, you know, isn�t the Christian life wonderful and all this?

I can�t even try to imitate him. But I have met him before, but that�s another conversation we had here one time. Anyway, all of it. I digress. But when he says, just follow these five principles, and God will bless your life.

And it�s all these principles and steps and all this. Those are laws. That�s just legalism. But you don�t think it�s legalism because it�s legalism light with a million dollar smile. Or when Oprah says, you know, religion is so easy.

All you have to do is love God and love your neighbor. Well, that�s called the law. And you�re going to go to hell because you�re not very good at that, Oprah, unless you turn to Christ. And so all of these celebrities that we think of as nice, kind, generous, gracious, moral teachers are actually rank legalists because they�re really just preaching law.

So it�s life-changing, super helpful. I think the introduction might be borrowed from Barnhouse. I can�t remember now. I think it�s this book where he talks about if he were the devil. If he were the devil, what he would do is have every church in Philadelphia, for example, full.

No one�s at the bar. No one�s at the strip club. No one�s at all. Everybody�s in church and they�re all hearing timeless truths to live by because they�re not hearing the gospel. And it just lulls people into a terrible sleep.

So really helpful, encouraging, eye-opening, changed my life in a good sense. It�s all Bible stuff, but we don�t realize it.

And Mike, what would you say, last 10 years, most helpful book, most life-changing book, eye-opening book?

I think it would be The Whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson. Making sure we understand that there�s nothing prior to faith for an unbeliever. We�re not requiring them to do things or to change or to be better, but simply look to that snake that�s on the tree by faith.

And making sure I get the law gospel distinctions. And I think in the past, I was more of a scolder when I preached. I still want to be firm and earnest and confident and those things, but I don�t want to scold.

I want to tell people, yes, I too with you am a sinner, and Jesus died for the sins of Christians too. And while we don�t want to sin, we have a great sin-bearer. And that, I mean, I used to think God was mad at me all the time.

And I think I preached to the congregation, like, God�s mad at you and you don�t measure up. And then I see not my own life, but all your lives, and none of us measure up. And I�m like, the way to get them to measure up is to get after them, scold them.

But that�s not what motivates, because law never motivates. It�s like the GPS, right? It doesn�t animate. It doesn�t get you there. What motivates? It�s the love of God in Christ Jesus. But for so long, I didn�t want to talk about God�s love because the Joe Osteens talked about it so much.

I�m thinking, wait a second, they�ve overdone it. So my correction was to kind of take that away. And the Merrill controversy with Sinclair Ferguson�s discussion in The Whole Christ, I�ve read it several times.

I�ve probably listened to it seven times. I saw Sinclair at the Shepherd�s Conference years ago. And I said, Dr. Ferguson, that�s changed my life. It�s changed my preaching. It�s changed the way I live the Christian life.

And he�s this stoic Scottish guy. And he held my hand and he said, �Thank you. You�re welcome. Because if I�m mad at you, guess what you think? God�s mad at you. You�re thinking the demeanor of the preacher is the demeanor of God because he�s speaking the words of God.

And while God chastens his believers, he doesn�t punish them. He doesn�t condemn them because they�re in Christ. That�s happened at the cross already. And so we use the law to guide and we use the law to direct us, but not to condemn us any longer.

In the last few minutes we have here, why don�t you each just take a few minutes and just tell us maybe a couple things that you�ve learned having been at your church for a long time and why that�s been an advantage to you to be at the same church.

Most pastors are at a church for, I think the average is like three years. So how has it helped you? I guess I won�t say how has it hurt you. I guess that�s just like it�s harder to recycle sermons. Didn�t you just preach that two months ago, Pastor?

But how has it helped you?

So, yes, same church since �98. I think it�s been helpful for the selfish, let�s go selfish first. Selfishly, it�s been good for my family because it�s stable and it�s always the same, so to speak. So I�m grateful to the Lord and to the congregation that I�ve been able to be in the same place.

My kids have been able to see the same church and the same people. So selfishly, it�s been good for that. For my own heart, it�s been good because when Jenny Hare, a member of our church, I�m good friends with Tim and Jenny, her husband as well.

When Jenny Hare, who�s had, I think, 13 surgeries for cancer, is on the stage and helping to sing and lead musical worship, she�s not just some blonde chick up there. You know, you come in first, you�re day one, you�re like, �Well, they�ve got some blonde lady up there helping to sing with the other blonde lady and the guy up there playing the drums.

Are they trying to put on a show I love Tim and Jenny because I�ve been with them for all those years and watched the ups and the downs. If I kept going to different churches, and sometimes the Lord needs you to do that or has you to do that, I�m not trying to say the other is bad.

But I so love the people who are there because of what they�ve gone through, because of loyalty to Christ and the gospel. It�s so good just to be with people. So, I just used her as one example, but I�m thankful for that.

And then the other side of it would be, I think it�s been good for the church because it�s been stable. �Oh, we�ve got another new pastor. I wonder what his hobby horses are. �Got another new pastor.

It�s been good for our church because it�s been stable, even though I�ve changed a lot. Well, I hope for good. Paul even tells Timothy that it should be evident that there�s changes in your life as a young pastor because you�re growing spiritually.

So, it�s been great, I think, for the church because we�ve changed a fair amount, but it�s been positive, it�s been good. I�m thankful for that.

And Mike?

Holy living takes a lot of time, right? There�s all these illustrations about farming and you think about plants that grow and how slowly they grow. I think pastors that only stick around for three or four years, they don�t get the enjoyment of seeing their small T.

The people grow and mature. Hopefully, you�ve seen me grow over the years, and I�ve seen you grow. And it�s such a pleasure because I think you�re not the same person. I was talking to Andrew Smith earlier today with Pat in my study.

I just said, �Oh, Andrew came in as a college student, didn�t really know much about much, and then God saves him, he works in his life, and now he�s on a preaching schedule. And I said, �If I just had ten more Andrews and I get to watch that, I get to watch that in your lives.

I regularly say, when people ask me about the church, I think of the Goddards. When you got here, Nathan�s what, I don�t know, five months old or something, tiny? And then Nathan grows up, and then Nathan professes Christ, and I think I baptized him, I can�t remember.

I�m kind of like Paul, I don�t remember who I baptized. I think I baptized him, he�s in my preaching class, he gets married, there�s some kind of brain surgery, and there will probably be kids in the future, and all of a sudden I watch the, pardon me?

Oh, it has been announced? Well, like a good pastor, I know enough information to split the church ten times. I think I knew that, but I didn�t want to say it. And I think I get to watch people�s lives transformed.

We�re different. You behold Christ, and you change. And so that�s one of the best things about being here a long time. I think the church gets to see progress is evident in the pastor. Paul talks about that to Timothy.

And I get to see that in the congregation, and it�s just wonderful to watch. We�re not the same people that we used to be. God is transforming us from one level of glory to the next. So that�s probably my favorite thing about being here long term.

We need to close so that we can get to service, but let me pray. Our Father, we thank you not because of anything good in us, but because of everything that is good and comes from you, that you have granted these men new life, long ministries.

Lord, we pray that you would continue to use them for many, many years to come. Lord, as we shift here from having fun, even while talking about theological issues, to worshiping our triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, would you grant us just joy, fellowship, thankfulness, and let our gratitude be exhibited in all that we do during this next bit of time.

Father, we thank you for sending the Lord Jesus Christ to rescue us from our sin, to live the perfect life, to die a substitutionary death, and to be raised victoriously on the third day. And it�s in Jesus� name we pray.

Amen.

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