The Potter's Freedom Part 5

It was about 500 years ago, not quite, we're getting there, it's going to be a big anniversary when we do.

But it was about 500 years ago that a very great debate took place, and I have an interest in debates,

I've taken part in a few in my time. But this one was done in writing, and I've done a few of those as well.

But this was done in writing in the form of books, and I haven't quite gotten to that point yet. This was the first great debate of the

Reformation, the Reformation most of its time as having begun approximately 1517, though of course anyone who's actually studied the movement knows that it was a very complex movement, and there were very important things that took place before it, and very important things that took place after it as well.

So it's really hard to say exactly when it began, but most people begin it October 31st, 1517.

When Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses on the Wittenberg Church door for debate in regards to indulgences, well it was not too many years after that, that the first great written debate takes place in regards to the

Reformation. It took place between Martin Luther and Desiderius Erasmus. Erasmus was called the

Prince of the Humanists, and Erasmus was in fact the one who had first both printed and published an edition of the

Greek New Testament, and Erasmus was quite the scholar. And Erasmus wrote a book on the freedom of the will.

And Luther responded in 1525 with his classic work, The Bondage of the

Will, in response to Erasmus. And as he brought his discussion to a close,

Luther said something that I think is extremely important for us as we discuss the topics of salvation, as we continue to examine a new book published by Dr.

Norman Geisler entitled Chosen but Free. Here's what he said to Erasmus in his conclusion.

After he had made a rather strong conclusion where he said, For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and foreordains all things, that he can be neither deceived nor hindered in his prescience and his predestination, and that nothing can take place but according to his will, which reason herself is compelled to confess, then even according to the testimony of reason herself, there can be no free will in man, in angel, or in any creature.

That was his conclusion. And then he says to Erasmus, he says, In this, moreover,

I give you great praise, and proclaim it, you alone, in preeminent distinction from all others, have entered upon the thing itself.

That is, the grand turning point of the cause, and have not wearied me with those irrelevant points about potpourri, purgatory, indulgences, and other like baubles, rather than causes, with which all have hitherto tried to hunt me down, though in vain.

You and you alone saw what was the grand hinge upon which the whole turned, and therefore you attacked the vital part at once, for which from my heart

I thank you. Now, did you hear what he said? Here is Martin Luther, which most people would identify as the father of the

Reformation. Certainly there were others. Zwingli was coming to the same conclusions at the same time, and before them you had

Jan Hus, you had John Wycliffe. Certainly we're not saying that everything began with Martin Luther, but most people would look back and recognize that God used

Luther in an exceptional way at a certain point in history to bring about the freedom that we have today to study the

Gospel, to own the Scriptures, to interpret the Scriptures in their own context, rather than the context of Roman Catholic tradition.

And yet what did he say about the debate over the bondage or freedom of the will, over predestination, over God's freedom and man's freedom?

He said that Erasmus had entered upon the thing itself, he calls it the grand turning point of the cause.

What cause is he talking about? He's talking about the cause of the Protestant Reformation.

And he says that Erasmus himself has recognized not what are simple baubles like popery or purgatory or indulgences.

Instead, Erasmus is focused upon the cause of the entire argument between Catholic and Protestant.

In fact, he calls it the grand hinge upon which the whole turned, and said that Erasmus had attacked the vital part at once.

Do you hear what he's saying? He's saying that this is the cause, this is the vital part, this is the grand hinge upon which the whole turns.

And he compliments Erasmus for focusing upon what's important, and yet today, today we have the very same issues facing us that faced

Luther and Erasmus long, long ago. And as I have been reviewing and discussing the presentation made in Chosen but Free by Dr.

Norman Geisler, I have more than once had occasion to point out that, again, we have the exact same issues being discussed, except this time it's between two people who would call themselves

Protestants, and yet on the issue, the grand hinge upon which it all turns,

I find myself defending Luther's position, and Dr. Geisler finds himself defending

Erasmus's. Where do we draw the line?

Well last week we began looking at Romans chapter 9, and I started preaching, I admit,

I started preaching and I thought I was going to get done with the whole thing by about half past and we could take phone calls, but I started preaching and everyone who knows me,

Rich Pierce is in the control room and I noticed that on my screen it says Rich Pierce screening your calls, so we want to make sure to mention that.

We mention when Dave's here, so we need to mention when Rich is handling the board today. And Rich is laughing because I said that I was preaching, and I guess those who know me tend to know that I do that.

And he doesn't want to say anything today, but one of my very good friends, Simon Escobedo is in the studio with me today, hi

Simon, I know you're not going to say anything back to me, but hi anyways. And he started laughing when I said I started preaching too, because I guess he knows that that's a tendency of mine as well.

So we didn't get very far last week. We went through Romans 9 and I started dealing with Dr.

Geisler's responses, but I didn't really have an opportunity to really get into it. And given the fact that I have heard people repeating

Dr. Geisler's comments on Romans chapter 9 over the past week, I think that it is very important that we address these issues and that we do so in a fair and biblical manner.

So I would invite anyone, if you want to know about the grand hinge upon which it all turns, to take your

Bibles and look with me again this week at Romans chapter 9. I would like to begin by looking at what

I described last week as the dividing line of Biblical soteriology.

The dividing line of the two major ways of looking at what the Bible says about salvation.

And you might say, two? There's probably 23 ,000. Well, maybe, but on this issue there's two.

That makes it nice and simple. Either you believe God saves or you believe He doesn't. Either you believe that God saves perfectly or you believe that God has a plan whereby maybe

He makes man savable, salvable, but He leaves it up to man as to whether he will actually be saved.

That's the great dividing line. That is the divide that Luther recognized. And maybe if you're a

Lutheran you're not aware of that because most Lutherans today don't believe what Luther believed about this. I would just suggest you read

The Bondage of the Will, but most people recognize that following Philip Melanchthon, most Lutherans stepped away from the strong position that Martin Luther had.

But I describe Romans 9 .16 as that great dividing line, and it says it does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

And whenever you see the word therefore, you should always see what it's there for. And so that flows directly from the assertion of Romans 9 .15,

where Paul says, For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion whom

I have compassion. And when you go back and look at where God said that to Moses in the 33rd chapter of Exodus, an incredible passage of Scripture, by the way, worthy of an entire hour in and of itself.

I had the privilege of teaching a Hebrew exegesis class this past spring for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, and we went through Exodus 13, and it was just incredible, 32 and 33 and 34, those chapters, just incredible in their depth.

But fundamentally what Romans 9 .15 is referring to is God's freedom. God's freedom to have mercy on whom he has mercy, and compassion on whom he will have compassion.

It's about the freedom of God, the sovereignty of God. The fact that God is the one who's free, and I am finding over and over again as I address this issue and as I'm writing my response to this book, not like any of you are surprised

I'm doing that, that the real issue that we have to continuously keep before us is the freedom of God.

In fact, I'll go out on a limb here, and I'll put it in this phraseology, because I want you to understand the importance of what we're talking about.

There is a theology that is extremely popular amongst all religions of man. There is a theology that is extremely popular today, even amongst those who would call themselves

Protestants, that should be written under the title of the bondage of God.

It should be described as the bondage of God theology, and it's the idea that somehow God has gotten himself into a situation where he is in bondage to his creatures.

There's many things that God would like to do in this theology. God tries desperately, in fact, to save as many people as he can.

In fact, I was reading an article by Dr. Geisler in a tribute to John Walvoord written in 1982.

I did not bring it with me today, and I do not have the file I was working on on my computer in front of me, so I'll have to paraphrase.

But specifically, Dr. Geisler said that God will save the maximum number of savable people.

That is, he will not save as many as could be saved, except he will within their realm of freedom.

God would like to save all, but he can't. And so I would like to submit to you that the theology that is opposed to the

Reformed understanding of these passages could be described as the theology of the bondage of God. God is in bondage to his creature.

His creature has ultimate freedom, but God has no ultimate freedom in and of himself.

That's not what Exodus 33 is about, and that's not what Romans 9 .15 is about. There God says,

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. God's mercy and God's compassion are free.

They are free because God is free. If they are mercy, if this is mercy, if this is compassion, if this is grace, it must be free.

It cannot be demanded and it cannot be forced. And light of that assertion drawn from Exodus 33 of God's absolute freedom,

Paul concludes, it does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy. In the

NIV, the NAS renders it, so then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

And I rendered it to you from the Greek. It therefore is not from the willing one, the one willing, neither from the one running, but from the

God who is mercying. And mercy, mercying as a verb is not something that we really have in English language.

But that's how it's used in the Greek language. You can mercy someone and God is the one.

It is not dependent upon the willing of man or the running of man, but upon God who is merciful.

That's the dividing line. That's what separates what I would assert to you is a biblical soteriology from a soteriology that is less than biblical and is frequently pandering to the desires of men.

Well, Dr. Geisser does address this verse in one paragraph on page 59 of Chosen But Free.

And here is his comments. He quotes it. I'll give you the quotation first and then his response.

Romans 9 .16. So then it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. New King James Version of the

Bible. To the strong Calvinists, this seems unmistakable evidence that salvation does not depend on man's desire or will.

R .C. Sproul is incautiously triumphant about this, claiming this one verse is absolutely fatal to Arminianism.

That quotation is found, I believe, in Chosen By God, page 151.

And here is Dr. Geisser's response. Again, the Greek word for of here is ek, which means out of.

It is a reference to the source of salvation, not the means by which we receive it. This means it is a free act of our will in receiving it,

John 1 .12, Ephesians 2 .8, etc. All forms of Calvinism and Arminianism believe that God is the one who initiated salvation even before the world began,

Ephesians 1 .4. Only God can be the source of God's saving, quote, mercy, end quote.

However, as the Bible indicates later in Romans 9, verse 22, and elsewhere, we can reject

God's mercy, 2 Peter 3 .9, Acts 7 .51. There is no discussion of the relationship of Romans 9 .16

to Romans 9 .15. In fact, it's interesting since Dr. Geisser, as we did discuss last week, takes the idea that Romans 9 .10

and following is about nations and not individuals. It is interesting that at this point, he reverts to the individual view and not the nation view, recognizing,

I think, as most people have to recognize, that the nation view simply doesn't fit into this passage or into most of the rest of Romans 9 at all.

In fact, that's a major inconsistency. Why would you say that Romans 9 .22 teaches that we can reject

God's mercy if Romans 9 is about nations? I mentioned last week the fact that Dr.

Geisser atomizes Romans 9 and addresses it in many different places rather than looking at it as a whole.

I think that's one of the tremendous strengths of Dr. Piper's work, The Justification of God, which I would again recommend very strongly to your reading, because instead of atomizing the passage and breaking it up, the overriding issue for Piper is how does all of this hang together?

What is Paul's point in all of this? Is he answering a question? Let's be consistent all the way through.

That's why I would highly recommend to you the reading of Piper's work at this point. But there are a number of problems with Dr.

Geisser's response found on page 59 of Chosen But Free. The first thing that I did not even recognize until my friend

Simon and I were sitting here looking at this a few moments ago before the program began is the first line.

Again, the Greek word for of here is ek, which means out of. And I have in front of me the newest edition, thanks to a good friend of mine, of Bible Works 4 .0.

And my edition of Bible Works allows me to put all sorts of Greek texts up on my screen. And so I was looking at the

Greek New Testament in the UBS 4th edition, and I was looking at Romans 9 .16,

and I could not find the word ek anywhere. So I thought, well, maybe one of the other editions of the

Greek New Testament, maybe it's a textual variant. And so I brought up the Scriveners, because that is the

TR, which is the basis of the New King James Version, which is what he cites. But there are no textual variants there.

So I brought up the Robinson Pierpont Majority Text, and there are no textual variants there. In other words, the word ek does not appear in Romans 9 .16,

despite the fact that the very first line of Dr. Geisser's response is, again, the Greek word for of here is ek, which means out of.

No, Dr. Geisser, the word ek doesn't appear in Romans 9 .16. Then we have the following statement.

It is a reference to the source of salvation, not the means by which we receive it.

This means it is a free act of our will in receiving it. And quite honestly, all

I can say is that statement does not have the first bit of connection to Romans 9 .16

at all. That is what is called eisegesis. That is wishful thinking, to be quite simple about it.

That has nothing to do with Paul's argument. It has nothing to do with the direction that he's going. And there's nothing in Romans 9 .16

that even begins to substantiate this, even dismissing the fact of the obvious error of asserting that the

Greek word ek is here, and it isn't. It is interesting to note that Dr.

Geisser here seems to recognize that this passage has to be about salvation.

Well, if that's the case, then in light of Romans 9 .6, and then 9 .16,

and then the discussion in 10 and 11, this is all a unit, obviously, therefore, Dr.

Geisser has undercut his own argument that the preceding sections of Romans 9 are about nations and not people.

But I don't see anywhere in Romans 9 .16 where we have a differentiation between source and means.

And in point of fact, the obvious emphasis in Romans 9 .16 is therefore it is not of the one willing, neither the one running or striving or trying, but, and but is used here in what's called the adversative.

The adversative. It is not this, rather, on the other hand, it is this.

And in fact, Dr. Geisser should be well aware of the fact that this type of adversative use is found elsewhere.

For example, in very, very important passages about the doctrine of justification, you will find the very same type of adversative uses being used, where you have a distinction being drawn between, it's not this, but this.

Allah is not used that way, but day is used that way. For example, in Romans 4 .5, where it's a man who does not work, but, believes in him who justifies the ungodly.

That's an illustration of the use of the adversative. Well, that's the same thing that we have in Romans 9 .16.

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs. Instead, what does it depend on?

Now, the word depend, actually, is not found in the Greek text of Romans 9 .16. Literally, as I've rendered it before, it says, therefore, it is not of the one willing, neither of the one running, but of the mercying

God. And Paul's point is very clear. Salvation is of God, not of man.

And are we just to take it, are we to understand this to say, well, yes, God's mercy is necessary. Well, that does seem to be what

Dr. Geisser goes on to say. He says, All forms of Calvinism and Arminianism believe that God is the one who initiated salvation even before the world began.

Ephesians 1 .4. That is a true statement. That is a true statement. All forms of Calvinism and Arminianism do believe that God is the one who initiated salvation.

All forms of Roman Catholicism believe that. All forms of Mormonism believe that. All forms of Semi -Pelagianism believe that.

In fact, I've never met any religious system that says that God did not initiate salvation. Pelagianism, Semi -Pelagianism, you name it, everybody believes that.

But that's not the issue, nor is that the issue of Romans 9 .16. Unless what Dr. Geisser is suggesting to us is that what is being said here is that the source of salvation is not man's desire or effort.

Well, who could actually seriously suggest that Paul would want to argue that?

His opponents aren't arguing that. So why would Paul be arguing that, well, the very source of salvation itself is the will or the running of man?

The very fact that he brings out the willing of man and the running of man, we are talking here about salvation as a whole, including whether one embraces it or not.

And that's borne out by the context because then he begins talking about whom? About Pharaoh.

Very personal, very direct, very forceful argumentation that Paul is using here.

Now, he then says, only God can be the source of God's saving mercy. Well, that's quite true.

But Dr. Geisser is inserting eisegetically a distinction between the source of salvation and the means of salvation, the means by which we receive it.

It is not man's will, but God's mercy that brings about all of salvation, source and means, together as one.

He then asserts that, however, as the Bible indicates later in Romans 9 .22, we'll look at that in a moment, and elsewhere we can reject

God's mercy. I think when we get to Romans 9 .22 we'll find out somewhat otherwise. Let's continue looking at his responses to Romans chapter 9.

We looked briefly last week at the issue of the verses 11 through 13 and the issue of nationalism and so on and so forth.

I would just like to emphasize one more time, since this response that he has provided is being discussed and being used by other people, that recognizing that the phrase,

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, comes from Malachi, does not in the least bit argue against the personal nature of Paul's argumentation in Romans 9.

Yes, when Malachi was written, Jacob and Esau were gone. Yes, Malachi is referring to two nations.

And yes, Genesis 25 says there are two nations in your womb. All of that's quite true. The problem is, that's an argumentation against Paul's position, not against anything else.

See, the question is, how is Paul using these issues? How is Paul using these passages? And when we look at Romans chapter 9, the question he's asking is, why is it that even in light of all the promises of the people of Israel, there are individual

Israelites that reject Christ? That's Romans 9. And then as we've seen already this afternoon, starting after verse 14,

Dr. Geisler recognizes that from that point on, this has to be applied to individuals. So if you start in Romans 9, and in the first six verses you have personal application, and then 14 onwards is personal application, why in the world would we not see that the

Apostle Paul continues that application in verses 10 through 13? I don't know.

But I believe it involves eisegesis, not exegesis, of the text. Now, we did not get to looking at the response to the conclusion of Romans 9 last week.

And I'm going to try to both be fair and thorough, but I guess I've given into doing some preaching again, didn't

I? I know. I know. It happens. It happens. I just can't help myself.

But hopefully it's useful to someone. Just a few moments before we take a break, but let me at least give you something to be thinking of during the break as we come back.

Romans 9, 19. One of you will say to me, this is page 89 of Chosen But Free, one of you will say to me, then why does

God still blame us for who resists His will? This seems to imply that God's power in salvation is literally irresistible, regardless of what one wills.

Yes, that does seem to be what it implies. Here is Dr. Geisser's response. In response, it should be pointed out first that the phrase, who resists

His will, is not an affirmation by the biblical author, but a question posed in the mouth of an objector. Note the introductory phrase, one of you will say to me, a similar objector is introduced in Romans 3, 8, why not say, let us do evil, the good may come.

So the idea that one cannot resist God's will may be no more a part of Paul's teaching than the view that we should do evil so good may come.

Furthermore, Paul clearly rejects the objector's stance in the very next verse, saying, but who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

i .e., resist God. His answer implies that the objector can and is resisting

God by raising this very question. But more importantly, the direct implication is that if it is irresistible, then we should not be blamed.

In addition, in Romans 11, 19 -20, when Paul agrees with the objector, he writes, well said, no such statement is added here in Romans 9.

Another point to remember is that things that eventually seem irresistible were not so to begin with.

For example, sin only becomes unavoidable when one freely rejects what is right and his conscience becomes hardened or seared, 1

Timothy 4, 2. Likewise, righteousness becomes only irresistible when we freely yield to God's grace.

Thus, grace is only irresistible to the willing, not to the unwilling. As John Walvoord insightfully puts it, efficacious grace never operates in a heart that is still rebellious, and no one is ever saved against his will.

End quote. Let's go to our break with this one thought. If what

John Walvoord said is true, we are all hopeless. We are all hopeless.

Think about that. We'll be right back. To the Dividing Line, my name is James White. We're looking at Romans chapter 9 and discussing the issue of Dr.

Norman Geisler's new book, Chosen But Free, and the responses that he has provided to these passages.

And we do have one caller online. We will be taking calls today. If you'd like to comment at 508 -0960, 508 -0960.

Now basically it seems to me that what Dr. Geisler is saying here is that first of all,

Romans 9 .19, since it is an objector, that possibly he's misunderstanding or misreading the intent of Paul when he says,

One of you will say to me, then why does God still blame us for who resists his will? But obviously, anyone who has attempted to present this passage to others recognizes the fact that when you preach through the preceding verses, when you talk about Pharaoh and the hardening of the heart, and some of you may be going, well, why don't you talk about his comments there?

We did a few weeks ago when I pointed out the eisegetical assertions that Dr. Geisler makes about Romans 9 and the issue of hardening and things like that.

But when Paul says in Romans 9 .18, Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden, verse 19 flows very logically from that.

And I have heard, when I have preached 9 .18, how many people have

I heard say, well then, why does God still blame us for who resists his will? That's the natural response of the human heart is

Romans 9 .19. So in Romans 9 .20, Paul's response focuses directly upon the real issue in this entire matter.

Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,

Why did you make me like this? What is his response? Man must realize that he is the pot.

God is the potter. That the potter is free to do with the lump of clay what the potter wishes to do.

That is Pauline theology and that is Pauline anthropology.

That's Paul's doctrine of God and that's Paul's doctrine of man.

And that's the response that he offers. And so it is amazing to me that as a result of this, we don't have an exegetical response from Dr.

Geisser. We have an eisegetical response that really has nothing to do with the text at all that says grace is only irresistible to the willing, not to the unwilling.

Well then we're playing word games. We're playing word games.

Irresistible to the willing? What does that mean? I have no idea what that means. When Dr. Geisser says,

I believe in irresistible grace, it's just irresistible to the willing, that's an oxymoron. That makes no sense.

It communicates nothing. It's either irresistible, that is that God by his sovereign power raises dead sinners to life by a sovereign act of his will, or he can't do that, or doesn't do that.

I mean those are your only choices. Saying grace is irresistible to the willing, not to the unwilling, means nothing.

And hence to quote John Woolford, efficacious grace never operates in a heart that is still rebellious.

Well I'm going to tell you something. That's frightening to me. That statement is absolutely positively frightening to me.

What is the hope for the rebellious heart if God's efficacious grace cannot change that heart?

If it is up to us to make ourselves unrebellious so as to enable

God's grace to work with us, folks I've heard that line someplace before. It's called 2

Nephi 25 .23 in the Book of Mormon. It's also found in Moroni chapter 10 verse 32 of the

Book of Mormon. It says if we will do these things then is the grace of Christ sufficient for us.

2 Nephi 25 .23 says that we are saved by grace after all we can do. My friends the dividing line has always been not the necessity of grace but the sufficiency of grace.

And at this point Dr. Geisler and I are on absolutely opposite sides of that issue. And Dr.

Woolford as well for he says efficacious grace never operates in a heart that is still rebellious.

And I say to you the whole reason it has to be efficacious is to change our hearts and make us new creatures.

Or we will remain rebels and enemies of God. It is God who changes the heart.

Well before I do any more preaching I think it would be a good idea if we take some of our phone calls. 508 -0960.

508 -0960 is the phone number. And we invite you to call and participate today on The Dividing Line.

Let's start with our first caller. This is Randy all the way out in Apache Junction. Hello Randy how are you?

Very good. How are you doing? Doing real well. My question is if we are predestined and we have no responsibility in our will and accepting it.

I didn't say we have no responsibility in our will. I said that we are spiritually dead and that we are enslaved to sin.

And so that means that if we are going to be saved then salvation has to come from God.

It has to be of God. And He is the one who must save us. Not that somehow He is just sort of staying there impotently and hoping that we will take care of things ourselves and sort of work the plan shall we say.

Do something to save ourselves and accepting something so on and so forth. God is the one who raises us to spiritual life.

Yes indeed. Okay. Alright. If our will doesn't have anything to do with it then and we are predestined then why are we here?

How come we didn't just put us in the eternal state? Because God is working something out called

His plan in this world. Ephesians chapter 1 says He is working all things after the counsel of His will that He is bringing glory and honor to Himself by conforming us to the image of Christ.

Prior to Romans chapter 9 you have logically Romans chapter 8. And in Romans chapter 8 there

Paul talks about this very purpose and that is that God is conforming us to the image of His Son that He is in doing all of this bringing honor and glory to Himself.

Ephesians chapter 1 brings the same thing out and really the fundamental answer to anyone's asking why does

God do anything is found in Ephesians 1 6 the praise of the glory of His grace. If God simply just zapped us into the eternal state so to speak

I'm not really sure that all of the things that God would have to be revealed to us would be revealed to us.

And you may recall for example the fact that the New Testament teaches that we following Christ's footsteps

He suffered and we're called to suffer. Well why? someone might ask. Well it is

God's will through suffering to conform us to the image of Christ. Well can't God just do that by snapping

His fingers? Well I suppose that He could but in response to your question I would say that He hasn't chosen to do so.

I don't think we would actually know His love and respect and honor for Him if He did that.

Well that's part of it but I think part of it is being is taking see God is glorified in taking enemies and that's what the

Bible describes us as. Read Romans chapter 8 verses 4 through 9 and there it says that those who are not according to the

Spirit who do not walk according to the Spirit they are at enmity with God. And it is His joy to take those who are justly condemned and His enemies and change them.

Give them a as He described in the Old Testament take out that heart of stone and place within them a heart of flesh and change them from being

God -haters into being God -lovers. And He is glorified in doing that.

And that's what He's about doing in this world. Do you think do you believe that He still has a plan for Israel in His predestination?

Well if you mean that there are The remnant being saved? Well Romans chapter 11 says that a remnant will be saved.

As to exactly who they are that gets us into a very long discussion of eschatology and everything else.

And you'll never find me arguing eschatology in a public situation. But certainly there are people who are being drawn from Israel even to this day.

That is Israel in the sense of the people of Israel the ethnic Israel. But obviously you know there are major viewpoints in regards to whether Israel is just the descendants of Abraham and in fact

Romans chapter 9 addresses this. Or whether those who are the children of promise and all the rest of those things that go along with it.

Alright Randy. Alright thank you very much. Okay thanks for calling. That opens up a line at 508 -0960 508 -0960

If you're trying to get in now is your time to try because we've got a full board of calls and that opens up one for you.

And let's go to Tempe and talk with Jennifer. Hi Jennifer. Hi. How are you doing? Hi I'm doing fine.

You have to speak up just a little bit. I think we've got you maxed out on the volume and we're still having trouble hearing you. Okay. I'm getting really confused about what you're saying.

But I don't understand you say that God conforms us to his image in Christ.

You're saying he uses coercion to do this or something? Coercion. Hmm. That's a term that Dr.

Geisler likes to use a lot and most of those people who object to the idea that God in his sovereignty raises a man to spiritual life and converts him by his power not by our power like to say well you're saying

God uses coercion God uses force. And my response to that is well would you use the term coercion or force of John chapter 11 when

Jesus comes to the tomb of Lazarus and he says Lazarus come forth.

Now would you say that Jesus coerced or forced Lazarus to life?

No because Lazarus was a follower of Jesus and he loved him. He believed in him.

What was Lazarus' state when Jesus said Lazarus come forth? He was dead in the grave.

So the act of resurrection really describing that as a coercive or the use of force

I mean I would call it the use of power. It's definitely a powerful thing. It's definitely a forceful thing.

But let me put it this way could Lazarus resist the command? Could Lazarus have said eh

I don't want to. I think if he didn't have the faith in his heart

I don't think he would have come back. Well wait a minute. So Lazarus is dead in the grave and the reason that Jesus can bring him forth is because Lazarus has faith in Jesus?

Well he come out but for what? Come out but for what? My point is and I'm trying to and hopefully you can see the point and the point is that when

Jesus says come forth Jesus is

God almighty. He is the sovereign. And when he grants spiritual life to someone calling that the use of coercion or force is probably not a really meaningful use of the term.

And most people object to this by saying well what that means is we're being forced against our will.

Our will is dead in sin and enslaved to sin. And I am so thankful. I am so thankful that though he didn't need to God was merciful to me and gave me spiritual life.

And if someone wants to call that force and coercion well that resurrection power I'm awful thankful for.

But then what does it mean in Romans chapter 10 verse 9 For if you publicly declare that word in your own mouth that Jesus is

Lord and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead you will be saved.

And doesn't that mean you have to have faith? And what is faith? Paul describes faith as the gift of God given to those very ones that he raises from spiritual death.

Paul says that not all men have faith when he wrote to the Thessalonians. He describes faith as the gift of God.

Who is it that will make this confession with their mouth? The very ones who are drawn by the

Father John 6, 44. The very ones who are given to the Son John 6, 37. The very ones

Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 9 when he says there are certain individuals who are pots who are made unto honor over against those pots that are made unto dishonor.

Jennifer, we've got to take a quick break. Thank you for your phone call today. That opens up a line at 508 -0960.

We'll be continuing to talk to you and others right after this. And welcome back to The Dividing Line.

We have a few more moments left and we want to get to our other callers that have called in today and especially to Dennis here.

Dennis, thank you so much for your patience. Thank you for calling in today and thank you for calling in for the past three weeks, in fact.

Well, I wish it was three weeks. I haven't taken calls that long. That's exactly right. Very quickly,

Dennis. In verse 21, Paul seems to appeal to God's sovereign right as creator.

I was wondering how you might tie that back to, say, chapter 1 in terms of man's culpability because of what is revealed through creation.

Well, certainly all of Paul's theology in regards to man and to God and to the sovereignty of God and man as the creation of God, all of this is consistent all the way through the book of Revelation.

Yeah, Paul's Revelation. There's a new concept. We could sell a lot of books on that, but all through the book of Romans, it is consistent all the way through.

And I really do take objection to even some good Reformed writers who, looking at verse 20 and in the follow -up of that in verse 21, which is really an expansion upon the last two phrases of 20, say that Paul doesn't answer the question.

I believe he does answer the question. He answers it very clearly with his doctrine of God. And it is not surprising then in a day when the doctrine of God is almost non -existent in many churches.

I mean, how many sermons on the Trinity or the decrees of God or the immutability of God have you heard of late?

It's not surprising then if you don't have a solid doctrine of God, you're going to end up with a deficient doctrine of man as well and a doctrine of salvation.

It seems as if he's saying, well, if you're God and you made the universe, then you can do what you want. Well, God is certainly sovereign and free in that sense, but it is the acceptance of the freedom of God and the creatureliness of man that is the real issue here, and that is what requires grace.

And you can't force it down somebody's throat. You can proclaim it, but you have to trust that God, by His grace, is going to bring it alive in someone's heart.

So would you think that maybe it can be implied that people are culpable for knowing that God really is sovereign over His creation, including

His rational creatures, human beings? Let's put it this way, Dennis. I think that it is absolutely irrational to not recognize that if God is my creator, then

God is sovereign over me. I don't see how that can be considered to be a rational thought.

But the simple fact of the matter is, again, because of sin and because of corruption, we need to have

God's grace to reveal to us these things and to make them real in our life. Dennis, we've got one more call we want to slip on.

Thanks for calling the day. God bless. Let's talk to Pastor Michael.

Pastor, how are you, sir? Hello, brother. How are you doing? I'm doing just fine. Good. I wanted to begin my question actually with full depravity versus free will, but I guess my main question

I really want to ask is, fallen from grace versus eternal security.

What is your views on that? Well, the only phrase that I can think you're referring to about fallen from grace is what

Paul addresses in Galatians 5 to individuals who are attempting to be justified by keeping works of the law.

As to the issue of the perseverance of the saints, I obviously believe that if God is indeed sovereign over all things and he has an elect people that he has given unto his son,

Jesus Christ, and has charged Jesus Christ with losing not a single one of them, and since I believe in the deity of Christ and the perfect obedience of the son to the father, then

I believe he's fully capable of doing what the son, or what the father has charged him to do, and bring all those elect people to salvation.

I understand. Why would, in the scriptures throughout Colossians, John chapter 15, all the way through the epistles,

Paul always pertains when he says, if you continue, if you stand faith, or if you stand fast, if you do not sway away from the faith, etc.

What enables us that if Paul says, if you, it would seem like it would depend upon us to walk in the faith, to have fellowship with the

Lord, to stay in the Lord, in order to fight the good fight, and race, and run the good race, that in the end there shall be a crown of glory for us?

Well, Paul actually, I think, makes it very clear that we can't hold that idea that our running and our racing either brings us into the faith,

Romans 9, 16, or in any way, shape, or form, keeps us into faith in light of his assertion that it is by his work that we are in Christ Jesus in 1

Corinthians 1, 30, not by our work, so that he who boasts let him boast in the Lord. But certainly, there is all through the

Scriptures the strong exhortation to every person to walk in the faith, to remain vital in the faith, to test oneself to see whether you're in the faith.

And the question is, do those things then make our actions the basis of our salvation, or are they descriptive of what a person who truly has faith in his faith will do?

That is, are we looking at these passages, let me give you an example. If we endure to the end, we shall be saved, paraphrase of Jesus' words in Matthew.

Well, does that mean that it is the enduring that saves us, or, and that would be the prescriptive way of saying, you endure, and that will bring about your salvation.

Or is it descriptive, that is, describing the saved person as the one who endures?

I believe, obviously, in light of taking all of Scripture, both Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura, Scripture alone and all of Scripture, in light of the clear teaching of the

Scriptures, that we are saved totally and completely as the work of God's grace, that the passages like that must be taken as being descriptive.

That is, the person whose heart true and saving faith has been born will endure to the end.

No one else will. And as I live and grow older in the Lord, I see people that once sat with me in the church who no longer confess faith in Christ.

And I ask myself the question, why is that? Well, the answer cannot be that Christ has failed.

The answer must be, as John wrote, that they went out from us because they were not truly of us.

And we must recognize the wheat and the tares, the fact that there is going to be in the church those who are not truly heirs of eternal life, though they look like all the rest of us.

Yes, I very much agree that in the wheat and the tares, I've been born again for approximately five years.

And I find it very semantics or semantics when I see that, you know, the explanation of fallen from grace concerning eternal security in the sense that a person of eternal security who believes in that can never assure anyone that they're saved.

The only thing they can say is, hello, I believe you're saved. You might be saved because we don't know what happens ten years from now.

So when a person leaves, the explanation to them then is, oh, well, the person was never saved in the first place.

Well, sir, we're just about out of time, but let me very, very, very quickly say the assurance of salvation is not found within ourselves.

The assurance of salvation is found within the faithfulness of Jesus Christ and the faithfulness that He has toward us and the perfection of His work.

There can be no assurance when that is based upon what we do or our having to exercise faithfulness.