Johnny Hunt's Biblical Illiteracy Then Calls

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon wrapping up our textual criticism series today So if you have had any questions over the course of the past two weeks

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This afternoon will be the time for you to call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number for you to call and If folks don't do that, well, we'll just have to do other things.

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We can do that we still remember how to discuss other subjects other than that particular one and So if we have actually answered all possible questions

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On the subject of textual criticism, then we will simply move on from there to other subjects

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We will leave that up to our listeners. And by the way, speaking of listening I am scheduled to do another program next week on Tuesday afternoon two hours after we complete the

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Tuesday morning edition of the dividing line Then I will be joining

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I believe he is called the What is it the freakishly tall

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Todd Friel? of way of the master radio and I'm going to be on the second hour of their program on Tuesday So that would be two o 'clock my time three o 'clock

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Central time I believe and we have all sorts of things we can be discussing but especially probably talking about The public discourse on the subject of Mormonism or the lack of public discourse on the subject of Mormonism That we are going to be subjected to for well, at least the next year or or so with the candidacy of Mitt Romney for the presidency of the

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United States and I have blogged on that already and mentioned the fact that I don't expect a whole lot of meaningful

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Conversation to come out of that but we still need to be prepared for those rare instances where we can actually get more than two sentences in in a row in speaking with someone now while the while the phone lines burn up there

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I Think I think everyone's TC'd out man there they've learned everything there is to know about textual criticism

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Know it all now and that that'll be that'll be that there was one Email That was sent to me an individual asking about Matthew chapter 21 verse 44

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Matthew chapter 21 verse 44 And a textual variant that is found there

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Specifically and he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it falls it will scatter him like dust and The reason for that particular question has to do with the fact that it is placed in brackets in the

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Nestle Alland text and Yet only because it is deleted and again

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Codex Bezae Catebrigensis that Odd one that we discussed last time unseal 33

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Old Latin one form the Syriac and a couple of early church fathers whereas it is found in Olive B Cl the

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Byzantine manuscripts families 1 and 13 and and various and sundry other why would that be placed in brackets?

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Well, mainly because some feel that it comes from Luke 2018 But that doesn't seem like a really good

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Reason either I must confess that on on my part. I find a codex

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D to be thin thin ground for almost any Deletion or any change in the manuscript tradition, it's just too idiosyncratic and So I would agree with the writer who was saying it seems odd that this would be

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Given a low rating as it's given a C rating in the textual commentary at least in the one

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I'm looking at those change rather rather rapidly, but be that as it may I would agree that There's slim basis for the deletion of that particular in that particular text

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Just real quickly if we don't have any phone calls on that subject it is interesting I Posted a blog article and I'm hoping my browser won't crash here since I just Some reason every time

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I try to open a PDF in Firefox past three days It has not only crashed the browser, but then it's hung the process and I have to reset the entire system to to get rid of it it's

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Don't know what's going on with that. But anyway The ailmen a website on the blog which has been a really active place recently in case you've all noticed that and I think the clip today, especially is is quite interesting to listen to I think it's one of the clearest examples of the of what happens when a

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Bible based Protestant engages a fully credentialed

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Roman Catholic theologian on the subject of the biblical text and Of course, that was the same debate where he in fact,

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I'm not sure if I put I think I I think Let's see. I think I do post In the next clip from this in a couple of days because I have

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I think three clips up from that debate Where he he made the mistake of doing the

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Roma locute est casa finita est And where is that sir? What?

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Had never been challenged on that one before now you're playing games. No, no not playing games

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Augustin didn't say that. Hello, and so it was That's interesting.

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Anyway, if you scroll down just a little bit to February 20th 2007, you'll see rumors out of BYU and their claim to having discovered amongst various Gnostic text an unidentified

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Christian apocryphal gospel whatever in the world that is a new ending to the

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Gospel of Mark now one of the funny thing is is when you start looking around and Reading the comments of people who are commenting on this who work in the textual area specifically

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They go we've never heard of a Gospel of Mark amongst those papyri.

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So How could that be? New into the Gospel of Mark a different version of two verses in the book of Philemon Which would that mean the textual variant or something?

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I don't know and a missing section in Luke 22 43 through 44 missing You mean something has to be added to it or if it's missing, how would you know it was missing?

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Really broad claims that are going to take some extraordinary data to substantiate

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Coming out of BYU using a multi spectral imaging which is in of itself a fascinating and interesting mechanism for reading papyri and getting through centuries of of accretion and and reading, you know sort of CSI for manuscripts in essence, which is great, but I Gotta I gotta admit

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I'm a little bit on the skeptical side when BYU is doing it One of the reasons is the quotation that I provided there

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Seth Corman a senior from Decatur, Indiana Majoring in ancient Near Eastern studies is one of the students involved in this project on the

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Roll scroll down here again. I hope this thing goes to crash if it crashes on me. It's gonna be great, right? It'll be right in the middle of listening to Johnny Hunt or something like that Let's see involved with this project on the oxyrhynchus collection

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Corman said he has learned a lot about the gospel from his studies now Let's just back up a second. If you're not familiar with this collection of Gnostic gospel, it's not just not the gospel

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It's just Gnostic writings. It's Egyptian writings a lot of Gnostic stuff in it and there's hymns and in fact the the image from the collection that I have there is a specific

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Song as I recall that's from the collection up in Glasgow I just wanted to post it because it was from Glasgow's from Scotland.

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Anyway He says that he's learned a lot about the gospel from his studies.

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Well, there is no gospel in these things So if you how do you find out a lot about the gospel? Well, here's here's how

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In a funny way, it has strengthened my testimony of the gospel in the Book of Mormon Especially Corman said there are over 5 ,600 manuscripts in New Testament Not to mention all the apocryphal writings we are working on now and none of them contain the

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New Testament as we have it today This shows me personally of the immense importance of the Book of Mormon without it.

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We would be lost and confused so you've got a you've got a Some people just are always smack -dab on top of the topic.

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I think you've got you've got somebody who looks at at 19th century fictional writing in America as the means of getting around the the 5 ,600 manuscripts in New Testament, which sound like they all say something different for one another which of course isn't the case and You know,

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I wonder you know what? I wonder if they might apply the same Standards of textual critical study to the

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Book of Mormon Maybe maybe they could go back over those original writings the

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Book of Mormon and produce a critical edition of the Book of Mormon You know instead of just going well, he's a prophet he can make changes if he wants to I'd like to see a critical edition of the

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Book of Mormon has all the changes and allegations of printer errors and everything else that came about only yeah, only in a

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Brief period of time during Joseph Smith's own life. That would be that'd be quite interesting I wonder I wonder what

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Seth Corman would have to say about that Well, who knows? Okay. Anyway That that is an interesting again related to the subject of textual criticism as well

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We will see what eventually comes out of those particular those particular claims.

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I received Notification earlier in the week That Johnny Hunt was at it again, you may recall that anytime

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I now see the front of Johnny Hunt's pulpit I know that there's gonna be something attacking Calvinism contained within it because he has had a number of guest speakers come in and and Do their best on the subject

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Calvinism and I really have to wonder If I were his people and all

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I ever heard was this kind of preaching I'd be getting pretty tired of the Calvinism stuff about now because it's it's been beaten to death and obviously, the only reason to continue going after it is because you're concerned about people outside of your own church and You know,

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I don't know if there's still some folks who have managed to survive there who you know Read John 6 and Ephesians 1 and stuff like that.

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But anyway The most recent sermon that I'm looking at say here, let's see

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What is the the date on this called the moral power of the grace of God? from February 18th

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By this time by Johnny Hunt himself. I was just queuing it up and ran out of time at the end

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So we might hear a little extraneous stuff here, but we have another shall we say standard?

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Attack Upon the the issue of Calvinism, but once again We've we've had two different speakers now that we have played from hunts pulpit going after Calvinism certainly various people have

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Contacted Johnny Hunt and I know I have pointed out numerous errors in in what has been said misrepresentations.

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You would think that someone if they if they if I was doing a series and I had really messed up that just the basic representation of the other side

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I would we would get flooded with people providing basic documentation refuting what

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I've said And if I were going to address that issue again, just simply on a on a moral level.

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I would have to encounter and and and respond to the assertions that were being made and This This just doesn't seem to be the case

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We we've we've we've responded to this stuff. We've seen the the attacks

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I've forgotten the names of everybody that was involved. But for a couple of weeks there you had different people coming in and Attacking Calvinism and Now Johnny Hunt's getting on the action himself and you would think at this point there would be a little

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Deeper Discussion of it there'd be something more than just the standard quote the same tired verses that that you you can never exegete

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But you just want to quote them and keep going type of a situation and just say all just means all and ignore Everything else that comes along with it

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And that's not what we get. We have a discussion of the grace of God and and here's here's as far as I got back into Editing and not editing it but queuing it up because I'm playing this live across the cross thing here

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So this may not work at all. We're gonna go ahead and and Talk as plainly as you can this morning about how broad is grace it's one thing that you told us the subject of your sermon is the grace of God and Then it's another thing for you to talk about grace

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But how about the scope of grace just how broad just how wide is the umbrella of grace?

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I told some of you most of you email me I better send out 50 emails because I told you the other day that I still preach from the

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New King James Version But I love the English Standard Version I love the New American Standard Version and I read all of these when

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I'm doing my sermon prep But listen to the the English Standard Version It says for the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation.

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Listen to this for all people How wide is the scope of salvation? The Bible makes it clear that it's not a universalism

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But it is universal salvation The Bible says in 1st Timothy 4 10 who is the

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Savior of all men, especially those who believe in his atoning death Jesus Christ did not save all men spiritually but provided the means of salvation to all men who would be saved

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Let me just stop right there and we've you know, we've addressed every one of these texts before but again

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You would think that by now there would be a little something more a little something meatier in it at least acknowledging the existence of other interpretations of these texts and then

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Demonstrating that those interpretations are wrong in this situation. What you always see is

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That one side can play the other Play the best I have to present Provide counter documentation counter exegesis and demonstrate the validity of one side over against the other the other side will never do that Have we ever played anyone?

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Actually providing a meaningful discussion of what we say and then providing a real response.

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I Would like to find that if I could find it someplace but it isn't there

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This the same template these same verses just go around and around and around and we just keep going over and over again what we

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Just heard is exactly what Norman Geisler said in chosen, but free Christ death saved no one

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It made men savable Christ death is hypothetical. It provides a hypothetical means of salvation that is dependent upon Something else for the fulfillment of the purpose the intention that God has in it and that is the free will of man

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Now some want to try to lean as far as they can and say yes, but you know God knows who's gonna do that. Well, how does

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God know who's gonna do that? Well, we don't we don't really know Well doesn't doesn't Bible actually tell we tell us how we know these things because God God Challenges the false gods to answer the question.

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Tell us what has happened the past why it happened Tell us what's gonna happen in the future if a false God can't do that and the true

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God can is that just because God's Looking from the outside see God could answer Two -thirds of that challenge if he was just passively looking at time from the outside He could tell us what has happened the past he could tell us what's gonna happen the future, but he could not say why?

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Because if he doesn't have a purpose in what's going on in time, then there is no why? There is no answer to that question

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But God challenges the false gods to tell us why things happen to pass that means they happen for a purpose Now can

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Johnny Hunt answer this question, I don't know it doesn't seem that that any of these folks are really desirous of answering these questions and holding themselves to the same standard that they are attempting to hold other people to and so we have the first Timothy 410 passage cited

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And we've we've talked about that one in the past before and and if you take it as the term is especially it raises all sorts of Hypothetical issues and things like that if you take it as as not especially but but specifically those who are believers

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He is a savior to those even the Arminians recognize That's a better way of understanding and translating it all the rest of stuff

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But to take that which isn't even in a specifically Soteriological text that has its as its intention a definition of the scope of the atonement and to expand it out the way that he

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Has done to this hypothetical atonement, okay? Let's let's drag that off into first Timothy 2 and the issue of mediation

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Let's drag that off into Hebrews and see if that fits with the the role of a high priest You'll never find these folks doing that.

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They're just not going to touch those those other texts where they're Overarching conclusions are going to create absolute havoc with the whole concept of atonement substitution intercession mediation

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All of those things but they're still gonna want to have their cake and eat it too because they still want to talk about substitution Well, what's the nature of this substitution?

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What does it actually accomplish becomes the big question that is really just not being answered

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He made a way for every man who would want to be saved in his matchless grace in first Timothy 2 for God Desired all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

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And of course we then immediately make the same the same question Do you follow that then along and speak of Jesus Christ as the mediator between every single human being in God?

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Is Christ interceding for every single human being including those that he and his exhaustive divine foreknowledge of future events in the exalted state?

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Knows will never accept him Will he plead his blood in behalf of rebel sinners that the father is not going to save or are we going to go?

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So far as to say the father cannot save them is Trying but is failing to save them.

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Is that The real issue. Is that really what you want to try to say to people? I'm not real smart, but I'll tell you what

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I do know. I know that all means all When you start taking a Bible and trying to tell me that all means something other than all

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I'm just gonna have trouble with that Oh Okay. Well, you know this it's so Simplistic to respond to this all of Jerusalem went out to be baptized.

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Does that mean there was nobody in the streets? There the dogs were walking along they had the streets themselves because all of Jerusalem had gone out

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You know that that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Thankfully. I cannot hear you. Mr. Pierce This is why is the soundproof room?

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So I see your your your jaw is flapping, but I see nothing more than that. The dogs went out to well, okay

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Well, you might include them under all There are so many times when all is defined by its context that that you you just really wonder and you know what

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I feel for the for the the people in congregations like this who start to engage in some level of defense of their faith and They've had modeled for them from the pulpit this kind of surface -level

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Eisegesis of the text Because once they start getting challenged by people who really do know what they're talking about and they start challenging these these kinds of understandings

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They haven't had modeled for them the kind of exegesis that's going to allow them to handle the text of the

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Word of God All right. This is traditional Exit I said Jesus it's based upon a tradition rather than anything else and You know and it the scary thing is if they've been brought to faith under that kind of preaching

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I've seen people, you know, we were starting to see more and more and more of these atheists Who are quote -unquote former

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Christians former evangelical Christians? former conservative evangelical

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Christians and You just wonder How did they get to that place and they talk about how they had had this simple faith

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And then when they really started to delve into it and examine it it couldn't hold up to examination.

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Well, you know what? When you're inconsistent in your proclamation inconsistent you're preaching

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You're not exactly laying a solid foundation for the souls the people in front of you and that's why this is important People say oh you just you just want to argue you just want to argue about something

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No, this is important to the people of God God gave us his truth and to ignore that truth

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And in fact in this instance to attack that truth out of tradition, and that's what this is Is to damage the people of God where are your priorities?

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Is are you just gonna well for political reasons? We shouldn't really discuss these things. Is that really how it should be handled?

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I believe all's all The Bible speaks of his desire in 2nd

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Peter chapter 3 in verse 9 The Lord's not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness

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But is long -suffering toward us not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repent us

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I've been over that one so many times. I'm gonna bother to do it right now when God calls all sinners to believe

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He does not command him to believe that they are divinely chosen and who has ever said that they are pure Strawman Misrepresentation.

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Mr. Hunt. Mr. Hunt, please if you're going to attack Reformed theology at least try to care to characterize it properly don't caricature it

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Don't draw a cartoon of it No one has ever said that what you're called to believe is some theory of predestination

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Faith object is always the promises of God in Christ. There's no question about that But it does not follow that it is not important then to see what the

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Bible says about these very issues You can't make heads or tails out of Paul's statement that he endured all things the sake of the elect if you don't have any meaningful doctrine of who the elect are

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You cannot make such an imbalanced proclamation and then expect your people to be able to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and how to handle the Word of God That's why these things are Important or that Christ died especially for them

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He commands him to believe that Jesus Christ died for all sinners in the world

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He does not offer salvation to a person either as elect or as not elect But simply as a sinner and that is a quote from John MacArthur now

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I Will allow Phil Johnson. I'm sure he's going to find the time to demonstrate this

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I have a feeling especially as I'm looking at a video of this that someone has thrown up John MacArthur's belief in election in Johnny Hunt's face and If you

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Maybe he just doesn't understand what's being said here because none of those things is what reformed people believe in the sense that You are saying that saving faith has to have these elements to it that you

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You understand the elect and non elect and that you have just identified yourself as one of the elect and all the rest of this stuff

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But it almost sounds like depending on what the context that quotation was That you do have to believe in some form of universal atonement

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And in the context where he's saying all means all that would of course be an addition on his side of a element of faith that I do hear various Southern Baptists saying that should be a part that that to Really proclaim the cross you have to actually proclaim that Christ's death can only be hypothetical

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It cannot be truly substitutionary. It cannot save anyone. It can only make the salvation of every human being a theoretical possibility

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That is that is standing in lieu of or awaiting the fulfillment by the almighty will of the creature and If that's the case, well goodness

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It's no wonder these folks only want a monologue that don't want a dialogue because I would love to debate somebody who would actually try

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To defend that kind of thing, but you'd never find anybody who would dare do it God does not

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Deterministically, isn't that a big word? That's not deterministically elect. It's Deterministically some men to salvation others to damnation

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Scripture makes equally clear that those who do not believe are responsible and guilty for the rejection of Christ And of course who's saying anything different?

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Open your ears sir Listen here the other side honor the truth by accurately representing the other side

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You know at least I can say this with passion and fervor in my voice because I have proven over and over again that when

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I debate a subject I Accurately represent what the other side is saying on that subject.

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They may not like the conclusions I come to But if it's specially in a debate, you're gonna misrepresent the other side.

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You're gonna get your head handed to you on a platter and So I it just it is amazing to listen to people who simply refuse

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To honestly and openly a deal with the issue men are not condemned because God has not chosen them

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But because they have not chosen him No men are condemned because they're sinners

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Because they are the fallen sons and daughters of Adam That's why they're condemned and no one is saying anything other than that No one is saying that someone is condemned because they're not elected

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This is a straw man. It is dishonest It is dishonest every single professor in a

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Southern Baptist seminary Armenian or reformed or somewhere in between should be calling at least for honesty on the part of these leaders, but how can they when you have

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Johnny Hunt and You have the the current president of the SBC all of them putting out this straw man this absolutely dishonest

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Misrepresentation, I just I Can't conceive of this it is so difficult to understand the mindset behind this.

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It's it's it's fear It's it's fear -mongering is what it is. You're just trying to scare people off with a misrepresentation of the the boogeyman

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Calvinism If you go to hell from the First Baptist Church of Woodstock It won't be because God did not choose you it would be because you would not choose

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God It'll be because you're a sinner and you did not choose God But here's the important part and the only reason that you will go to heaven

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From the pews the First Baptist Church of Church of Woodstock is not because you are better than the person sitting next to you who?

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Goes to hell it is not because you are smarter It is not because you are more sensitive is not because you are more spiritual the reason anyone will go to heaven from the pews the

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First Baptist Church of Woodstock or the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church or Anywhere else is not because we're better not because we're smarter but for one five -letter word called grace isn't that the whole point and The irony is this sermon is supposed to be about grace

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But since you don't have a grace that can save anyone But can only try to save Here's what you end up with the

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Bible says in John 5 24 Jesus Christ speaking most assuredly He who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life and shall not come in the judgment

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But it's passed from death unto life John 5 40, but you are not willing to come to me that you may have life

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Exactly. They are not willing who is going to be willing What did

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Jesus say? You cannot come unto me unless it has been granted to you by the

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Father John 6 44 No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day

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That's the rest of John's message. There's nothing inconsistent there but tradition the glasses of Tradition keep the man who is staring at the very pages of the

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Word of God from seeing its consistent testimony What an amazing thing to see

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All right, we're gonna take our break and then come back and continue on with a little bit of day of Dave I'm Johnny hunt and whatever and your phone calls.

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We'll be right back It's not an easy way

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It's a journey Following Jesus I What is dr.

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Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

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Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

31:45

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

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Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious isagesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

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You know that is not you John Tesh Really great

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CD really good Welcome back to the dividing line Let's let's listen to a little bit more of the of the

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Johnny Hunt sermon before we get to our callers here It is not the extent of atonement that excludes some people from salvation

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That's why first John 2 2 says and he himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only

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But also for the whole world. So what does propitiation mean? Oh, we're just gonna assume propitiation means theoretical

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Non -substitutionary atonement is that we're going to assume Yes, let's just assume that because we're hoping that our audience is never gonna dig deep enough to ask

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Questions like that the whole world Hebrews 2 9 teaches that Jesus tasted death for everyone

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So the problem therefore is not in the sufficiency or the scope of God's grace The Bible says in 1st

35:21

Timothy 2 5 for there is one God in one mediator between God and man and the man

35:27

Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom a payment note for all

35:32

So without any exception, so we stop right there We've quoted 2 4 2 5 and 2 6 now, can we get a consistent theory of atonement from Johnny Hunt?

35:42

Can we get a consistent theory that addresses the issues of substitution that explains to us how you can say

35:48

Propitiation and then turn into a theoretical thing or are we just going to get more of the scattergun fire all these things at once?

35:58

Type of a situation. I think that's what we're gonna get God calls all men to faith in his son Jesus Christ Who's atoning sacrifice was more than sufficient to cover every sin that has been or ever will be committed think about this for a moment

36:11

Occasionally somebody will say to me Pastor Johnny. You don't know how bad I am do what y 'all to say to them You don't know how good my God is.

36:17

You don't know how great his grace and goodness is how broad is

36:24

God's grace? It is I think that's probably about as far as we need to go with that. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr Hunt we look forward to the day when we get

36:33

We get some more serious discussions of those particular those particular issues, let's go to our phone calls here and Let's talk

36:45

Let's see here with Shane in Charlotte. Hi Shane.

36:51

Hey James. How's it going? I'm good. Hey Just I'm glad you turned that off.

36:56

I was about to get sick But I guess my biggest question is and it seems like in Just your history debate.

37:05

Why is it on the issue of election and it just seems to be the pattern that You know the second

37:13

Peter three eights are always quoted and I'm you know They they will never and I mean it's everyone from Hank Hanegraaff to George Bryson The argument is never from Scripture, you know, because they always leave the first seven verses off Well, yeah

37:27

Well, then they also leave the the context before and after first Timothy two and they leave the context of Matthew 23

37:34

You know all of them are treated in the exact same fashion, right? And I think but what really aggravates me and I and this was in modern

37:42

Reformation where there was actually the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism had two professors and everything and the thing that kills me about the whole

37:50

Apart from election, but just the whole Arminian argument or take Arminianism out of it and just the whole issue with what

37:56

Hunt was talking about Just even with the scholars falling on the other side on the universal atonement

38:04

It always goes back to number one evangelism because how do you tell people

38:09

Jesus? You can't tell people Jesus loves them, but it always goes back to the whole issue of Those those philosophical arguments it all it never goes the argument never goes from Scripture or or just Where they will exegete it, you know, and and I'm just wondering

38:28

You know Why have we come to this how we come to this point, you know where you know?

38:35

And and I just think it's kind of funny that even on a program like the Bible Answer Man We you know, we go to you know

38:42

Where he has actually literally said nowhere in Scripture is the Calvinism point of view pointed to and I'm just like whoa wait a minute, you know, how do you

38:51

I mean it just becomes very frustrating because the whole issue of Sin and grace is left off and it's just like you hear hunt.

39:00

It's not about sin It's about well because you didn't make the right choice, right? Yeah, well in each one of these situations the frustration for the person really

39:10

Part of the root that we that we Find to be very frustrating is for example

39:17

Johnny hunt if he were to be speaking on another issue an issue that that touches on this

39:23

But but the is not specifically on this would say so many things that if he were consistent with himself would

39:30

Contradict his current position he would have to recognize that He is not using the same kind of hermeneutics when he discusses

39:39

Justification or if he discusses the resurrection or whatever else it might be He's got to use a different form of interpretation a different kind of hermeneutics

39:47

He knows how to do it properly with those things because his traditions don't get in the way But when it comes to this one issue

39:53

All of that stuff gets thrown out the door and as soon as you see someone changing their their hermeneutic methodology changing the means of exegesis

40:03

You've just that is the big bright red light that says you just stepped on my tradition buster get out of my way

40:10

Yeah And we all have them and I think we should we should learn for ourselves that when we sense that we're doing that That might be a good time to look at our traditions too because I would point that same light at others as well

40:24

But the point is here these folks Absolutely refuse to allow for the possibility.

40:31

They have traditions I mean, we remember Dave Hunt's statement when I told him that many many years ago

40:36

That's just your tradition speaking and his response was James. I have no traditions Yeah, you know someone who doesn't think they have any traditions is

40:44

Obviously going to be in a position not to be in much of a position to examine them, but still to see the consistency over time and geographical

40:55

Distance of these individuals and and over over all their different backgrounds saying the exact same things but showing not the slightest interest in Explaining why they are using this this shotgun scattergun approach that does not actually look at the context of any text

41:13

It doesn't it very clearly is using passages that aren't even in a soteriological context right make overarching foundational soteriological conclusions

41:22

It in any other area they would recognize That that means that they have that they're dealing with somebody has a problem

41:30

But this one area because of tradition and when you and when you get into academia, oh good grief Yeah, the sad thing there is no one anymore believes anything is really true

41:39

All all viewpoints are equally valid with one another and the best you can have is your opinion

41:45

Well, how did you get to the how do they get to the point though on the whole issue with the propitiation? You know if the fact that Jesus died for sinners

41:54

You know, how do you even you know, I guess that was the Owen the argument John Owen you With the whole double jeopardy thing

42:02

I mean, how can people still die and go to hell if Jesus died for every sin of every man?

42:08

Knowing that they would not come to him. Well, and if propitiation is actually propitiatory Which is why you know

42:14

At least the liberal has some ground because a he doesn't really believe in the consistency of the text of Scripture Anyways, you can't really use the analogy of faith

42:23

You can't you can't expect Hebrews to be consistent with Romans or Romans to be consistent with John or whatever else, right?

42:28

So, you know, I understand why they can't come to any final conclusions They can't come to any final conclusions about anything other than we know that God hasn't spoken at least with clarity

42:37

But these folks don't have that out. They can't say well, it's not really propitiation. It's expiation

42:42

They can't go for the wishy -washy. I don't really like this idea of a wrathful God punishment sacrifice all the rest of stuff

42:48

They're stuck with all that but they don't end up actually thinking through the consistency of it and part of it is let's face it

42:57

American fundamentalism as a whole is an isolated movement that does not interact with the criticisms of it from the culture

43:04

They don't do apologetics or if they do do apologetics, they do really lousy surface level

43:10

Throw out a few arguments and since it worked for that guy That must be enough here. And otherwise,

43:15

I'm gonna close my eyes and ears and not listen to you anymore type of apologetics But they don't really actually do something where they're really interacting with Criticisms their position and so it is not normative in these churches for people to be challenged and what ends up happening is

43:31

When especially young men in their late teens and 20s and 30s who are feeling a real desire to you know

43:38

I read the Word of God and it says I'm to grow in the grace and knowledge the Lord Jesus Christ and I want to know the Word of God better and they start digging into these things all of a sudden they start discovering this stuff and The traditionalists like Johnny Hunt and and people like him the best that they can do is try to warn them off try to poison their minds from you know before they even start looking at this stuff because they know that once the person's really start looking into it seriously as George Bryson said he can stop somebody from being a

44:06

Calvinist if he can get to him before the Calvinist do Yeah You know if that's not an admission of something.

44:13

I don't know what is It's amazing and so that's that's what they're reduced to and I think that's why you see the consistency now

44:20

This is the third sermon in what so four months five months at most From Johnny Hunt's church, and I think it's because in a large church like that You're gonna get those young men

44:31

And they're gonna be they talk to other people and they point out passages that Johnny Hunt really isn't dealing with Yeah, and so it's sort of let's marginalize them

44:40

Let's make sure they're not in a teaching position and eventually they'll move on and you know what he's right eventually they move on yeah

44:49

Thanks for your your commitment to the word, and I just got pulpit crimes in a few days ago, uh -huh and The the titles when

44:58

I kind of read them. I was like yeah, man. That's even cut, but that was that was awesome Great, I really appreciate you writing that so well

45:04

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I hope it's I know it's encouraging to folks. I got an

45:10

Email from you may have noticed in the front no one ever reads the the forwards and stuff like that but I dedicated the book to two friends in the

45:18

United Kingdom Roger Brazier and Jim Handyside and Jim got his copy poor

45:23

Roger doesn't have his copy yet Cuz I'm supposed to send along with his Christmas present which hasn't been published yet, but anyway

45:28

We'll get it will it get to you Roger, but Jim Handyside is is from the Reformed Baptist Church in Annie's land and a suburb of Glasgow and In fact he's in the

45:38

Florida area right now if anyone wants to hear starting in March if anyone wants to really hear a preacher

45:43

If anybody's in the Florida area go go here at Jim Handyside. I put his schedule out anyways

45:50

He wrote to me, and he said you know it Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who

45:55

Believes these things and sees these things as to the state of the church today, but having read pulpit crimes

46:01

I know that if I'm crazy. There's at least two of us Thanks Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

46:14

I've almost forgotten the Forgotten than the number actually Because I haven't been using it for a while yep, it's right there in front of me

46:22

That's that's why I put it there don't need to invest any brain cells in in that all right

46:27

Let's talk with Jeff. Hi Jeff. How you doing? How you doing? Dr.. White doing all right

46:32

I? Had a follow -up from my call on Tuesday. Yes, sir I very much appreciated that call and I wanted to say first of all you made me

46:42

You're making me into a textual critic And I'm not sure if I like that or not well You know I just since I saw the top of your call.

46:50

I just today saved as a desktop Or a workspace in libronics.

46:55

I'm assuming you have libronics No, I do not oh well, then I'm going to give you techno envy right now

47:01

I just created what's called a workspace, and you can define in a workspace which resources in your library open up within that particular workspace and So you can you can have different things appearing in that particular.

47:16

You know workspace As you as you would want them to appear and so I have in front of me right now

47:26

I'm go ahead and disconnect there. We go. That's my laptop nope oh

47:33

The phone okay the phone Anyways, I have it on my screen right now in in parallel columns

47:39

I have the BHS text Then I have the the critical apparatus right next to it

47:44

And then I have the septa gent right next to that and they're all clickable as far as I can I can click on any

47:50

Of the apparatus signs and it gives me dates and locations and stuff like that and of course you can look at the septa gents

47:56

And you've got the the Hebrew text over the side, so just just to give you a little techno envy

48:02

That's that's what I put up on my screen since you said you had a question about Jeremiah. Oh, yeah

48:08

Yes, I do My I was doing some further reading, and I identified a book by Moises Silva about the septuagint

48:17

And I might want to get right introduction of the septuagint or invitation invitation to the septuagint.

48:22

Yes, right mm -hmm and one of the things that I came across on it was even on a

48:28

Darwinist website for some odd reason was Basically a lot of skeptics were latching on to that the major variant with the scrolls and the septuagint yes,

48:44

Jeremiah, and I I'm not really sure how to interpret those

48:51

Those major variants kind of what the different theories are I try looking up different stuff and nothing

48:57

I could access for free Wondering if you had any knowledge of where I could look or what what what's going on with Jeremiah?

49:06

Well, there is do you have worth wines introduction to Old Testament sexual criticism? I know

49:11

I do not okay that that'd be the first place to go because Worth wines a little bit dated, but you're still going to have a decent bibliography there

49:18

And that's going to give you as you know your researcher That's going to give you the the foundation for you to go from from there

49:25

But let me just mention for those who are listening in the in the audience This is honestly one of the examples.

49:32

I've used for many many years Warning people to be careful about the kind of flippant apologetic

49:38

Argumentation that they utilize and what do I what I mean is so often you will hear

49:44

Christian apologists throw out the fact that the Hebrew Masoretic text in the book of Isaiah is almost

49:52

Identical to that which has been found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and since the earliest manuscripts and Scrolls we have of the

50:00

Masoretic text or from about 900 years after Christ Then to be able to go to a hundred years before Christ or another in other words an entire millennia and have the text stay the same the argument is see

50:13

The text hasn't changed and and we have no issues textual Critical issues with the

50:19

Old Testament text the problem is that happens to be true and what that does demonstrate is that text do not have to of necessity change over a thousand year period of time because in that instance the book of Isaiah they did not but but that is not the case the book of Jeremiah and what

50:38

I mean by that is that very clearly the text of Jeremiah that is

50:45

Preserved for us in the Dead Sea Scrolls is a text that has some differences the major differences from the

50:54

Same Hebrew Masoretic stream of tradition that is enshrined in the

50:59

Masoretic text 900 years after the time of Christ And so there were clearly different streams for the book of Jeremiah and you know we might note that the book of Jeremiah itself records in regards to Baruch and what happens with the the destruction of some of Jeremiah's Scrolls that there was

51:19

Issues shall we say I have a friend that doesn't like that term but issues With the original writing of Jeremiah, which might have something to do

51:28

With why there would be differences later on in the compilation of the various prophecies in Jeremiah But the fact the matter is the

51:36

Septuagint text of Jeremiah is about a third shorter Than the Hebrew text of Jeremiah And so you have to be careful when

51:44

I hear people throwing out the Isaiah Masoretic text argument I cringe because it is it's a partial truth and as far as it goes it is true

51:53

But I know that there are going to be sharp atheist critics or or not even atheist critics it could be

52:01

Muslim critics it could be Mormon critics Who will then be able to come back with something and I just know that 99 % of the people that are throwing out the

52:10

Isaiah Argument don't have any response the Jeremiah argument. So what is the response Jeremiah? well, you have to look at textual variance and Individually but on a sort of macro level and there is a discussion of this in in worth wine for you to take a look

52:25

At that but on a macro level obviously the textual tradition that is in the

52:31

Dead Sea Scrolls is the same one that underlies a book of underlies the

52:36

Septuagint rendering and it is a different tradition than what is found in the Masoretic text and You know all all

52:43

Christians have to deal with the issue of the relationship of the Septuagint to the Hebrew text There's just there's no way about it.

52:50

There's an interesting comment Ironically in the new ESV. Well, not new ESV.

52:55

It's that's not a new translation You can't use the term new of a Bible translation anymore because they everybody uses it the

53:00

English Standard Version Which is a fairly new translation has a comment in its introduction

53:06

About the the rise in the recent rise in how to put it respect for the

53:12

Masoretic text or something along those lines and Hence, they made a specific decision not to examine the

53:19

Septuagint a whole lot in reference to the the

53:24

Old Testament text and so that that might introduce some interesting variance between ESV and the

53:29

New American Standard because the NESB does look at the at the Septuagint Especially when you have obscure Hebrew passages where the meaning just isn't isn't overly clear.

53:38

So all Christians have to deal with the relationship the Septuagint to the the Hebrew text and what you have in Jeremiah is a

53:45

Difference in the in the traditions that existed at that time and at least as far as the

53:50

Dead Sea Scrolls are concerned They have access to a smaller edition of the book of Jeremiah.

53:55

That would mean obviously That in the Hebrew Masoretic text you have a fuller Version of the book of Jeremiah and you'd much rather have the fuller one than the shorter one

54:04

But looking at the shorter one at least where it concurs with the longer one can give you

54:11

Some really good insights into any variants to take place at that point The problem is in the longer versions.

54:17

You don't have anything corresponding to that within the Septuagint Tradition, so it's something to be aware of it's something to examine

54:25

To look into you know, the utilizations and things like that But remember no one's claiming that the translators the

54:31

Septuagint the Jews initially Circulated stories they're being inspired

54:37

But that simply isn't the case and the fact is there is no one Septuagint Obviously the

54:43

Septuagint translators in the Pentateuch were far better than those in the Minor Prophets for example Or even some of the Psalter and so that's another thing to keep keep in mind so I would recommend to you the the resource you found with Silva and Also the worth wine book

54:55

I think the two the two of those will at least give you the foundation to launch off from there into other more specific resources

55:04

Okay. Okay. I am just one quick thing I saw on one website that they're saying the

55:10

Dead Sea Scrolls were smaller and I saw on another website that they said There's two a shorter and a longer version in the

55:18

Dead Sea Scrolls And I was wondering if you knew which of the case was true All I know is that that in the

55:24

Dead Sea Scrolls We have a version of Jeremiah that clearly has the same textual basis as the Septuagint whether there is another version of Jeremiah in the

55:32

DSS that Likewise testifies to the Masoretic existence of that tradition at that time that I do not know it would not surprise me at all because remember these these collections were not exactly edited and Hence you could have things coming from a number of different sources that would end up in a collection like like Qumran So that would not surprise me at all.

55:53

All I know is the the text of Jeremiah witness to the DSS is The Septuagint version rather than Masoretic as far as it's the origin source goes.

56:02

Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you, sir God bless. Bye. Bye. Let's uh Real quickly here get to Pierre in Canada.

56:12

Hi Pierre Hello, how you doing, sir? We got are you and we're gonna have to get to it real quick here because we're about out of time

56:18

Yep, just a quick comment about King James only and Calvinism mom the

56:25

I used to go to a church that had would not accept King James only and now that now they've converted to that and they are

56:31

Calvinist and The one of the things that they've done is when referring to all the word all

56:39

They're quite ready to commend the newer versions because in first Timothy 610 it says all kinds

56:47

When talking about the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil but sticking them to the

56:54

King James version, which says Love money is a root of all evil and the gross inconsistency there and I just I was just wanting to comment on that and also the fact that The same pastor that I'm just talking about now would say like when you were talking about Fundamentalism earlier and you said they don't do apologetics.

57:14

Well, he used to say that Apologetics is just new event Jellicle. Anyway, I might disagree with that It's to defend the faith means you're a new evangelical

57:26

He's a Calvinist and he preaches. He's a street preacher and I don't know he's that's his take on it

57:31

Well, you know there's when when you say someone's a Calvinist I think we need to define our terms there, you know

57:38

The the nutcase out of Kansas calls himself a Calvinist Phelps And so there it's one thing to to say

57:46

I believe this doctrine of that doctrine. It's something completely different to be consistent in the application of an overarching reform theology which includes the sovereignty of God the deadness of man and sin and the glory of God and Calvinism a touch it touches your epistemology

58:03

It touches your knowledge your theory of knowledge your your worldview and everything And if you don't allow it to to impact those areas, you're not really

58:11

Calvinist You may hold those beliefs But if you don't see how those beliefs relate to other beliefs, you're not really a Calvinist to begin with So we have to be careful about the utilization that sir.

58:19

Hey, thanks for your phone call today. Okay. All right. God bless. Bye Bye. Bye. All righty. Thank you very much for listening.

58:24

Don't forget next Tuesday We'll have the dividing line at the regular time and then I'll be on with Todd Friel on way of the master radio

58:30

No dividing line a week from today because I will be in West Broylston, Massachusetts Teaching a bibliology class there looking forward to being with the brethren there and preaching on Sunday morning and the church there.

58:42

So Thank you for being with us today. We'll see you Tuesday on the dividing line. God bless We need

59:31

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