June 9, 2025 Show with Anthony Rogers on “Defending the Essential Truths of Christ and His Gospel”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this ninth day of June 2025.

Over the past few years, I have been having listeners contact me with the request, when are you going to interview Anthony Rogers? And I began to do some research on Anthony and was extremely impressed and am extremely impressed with his gifts, with his knowledge of Scripture, with his beliefs, his apologetic skill.

And finally, that day has come where we have Anthony Rogers for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We almost had him on a number of weeks ago, actually a few months ago, back in February.

We had him planned for a specific date, but my brother, Andy, his health took a turn for the worse in the hospital, and I was informed that he was likely not going to remain on this Earth very long, and sure enough, the Lord did take my brother.

But I'm glad that Anthony could reschedule and be on with us today. And Anthony Rogers, for those of you who are not already familiar with him, he's a Christian apologist, a debater, an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America denomination, also known as the PCA, and he is regional director for Metanoia Prison Ministries.

And I have conducted an interview in the past with Lowell Ivey, the director of Metanoia Prison Ministries, and I'll let you know how you can hear that momentarily. But today we have Anthony Rogers on the program to discuss defending the essential truths of Christ and his gospel against his primary opponents today.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Anthony Rogers.

Hey, thanks for having me on with you. It's a delight.

Oh, it's such a delight to have you on, finally. And before we go on with your salvation testimony, which we always have first-time guests do on this program, I would love to hear more about Metanoia Prison Ministries, which, as I said before, we've already conducted a full two-hour interview on this ministry, but many may have missed that.

So why don't you give our listeners a summary explanation of this wonderful ministry?

Sure. So the PCA, as you mentioned, I'm a pastor in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church of America, has a home missions agency, Mission to North America, and part of Mission to North America's effort to extend the gospel into all areas of America involves work among prisoners.

And that's what Metanoia as a branch of MNA is all about. So our goal is to be in, it's an ambitious goal and we're far from completing it, but it's to be in every prison in every state across the United States.

In that capacity, I am the regional director for South Carolina, so I am the one responsible for trying to get us into every prison and making sure that we are getting the gospel out to every prisoner.

Most of my time presently is spent at a prison near my house, Perry Correctional Institution. I could keep myself busy in that one institution all day. So it's a pretty big task to try and be in all of them.

So we'll see what that looks like down the road. But I go in all the time. I preach and teach. So I preached this last Sunday out of the local church that I'm currently serving as the pulpit supply for while they were looking for a pastor.

And I went from there to the prison to preach the sermon for the inmates there on the prison yard. And then throughout the week, I go in several times teaching Bible studies. Currently, I'm teaching a Bible study called Dust to Glory.

It's actually supplied to us by Ligonier, where we go through upwards of 50 different topics, just surveying what the Bible says on major issues like creation, the fall, other things that are brought up that are of critical relevance to the Christian faith.

And I also am doing an apologetics course. I mean, I just do a whole bunch of stuff out there. I think that gives people enough to get the idea. But the goal is to preach the gospel and disciple inmates, hopefully in the case of those that get out so that they might walk with Christ and be prepared to do so before they ever leave.

But then also preparing men who will never get out to live for him behind prison.

Walls. And the actual word metanoia, I understand it means a change of mind. Is there any nuance to the meaning of that word that would make it different than specifically repentance? Or is it identical to repentance?

Yeah, just it's the word for repentance. So it has a obvious relevance to all Christians, but has a special, I think, relevance to prisoners. They are guilty before God, as are all of us, but they've also committed criminal offenses.

So offenses that rise to the level of justifiably incurring the wrath, if you will, of God through the civil magistrate, as Paul says in Romans 13. So these are men who need to hear of repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so the same gospel at the bottom, at the end of the day, it's the same for them as it is for us. But there is a kind of edge to it in their case, right? They know they've committed sin in ways that some people might not have.

Right. Well, if anybody wants more information on Metanoia Prison Ministries, you can go to metanoiaprisonministries .org, and that is spelt M-E-T-A-N-O-I-A, prisonministries .org. If you want to hear an interview I conducted back in February of 2024, that would have been actually February 27th of 2024, with Lowell Ivey, the director of Metanoia Prison Ministries.

Just type in Lowell, I'm sorry, L-O-W-E-L-L, L-O-W-E-L-L, and that will come up on your screen when you type that in at the search engine at irontrepanzionradio .com. And I have interviewed Lowell Ivey several times, that happens to be the most recent time I've interviewed him on Metanoia.

Well, as I told you earlier, we have a tradition on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation story, including the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised and the kinds of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

So I'd love to hear a summary of your story.

Sure. So briefly, as far as my family's history goes, there's a lot here, but I could get caught up the whole time just talking about this. But my family, my grandparents, great-grandparents came from Sicily to America.

They moved what I refer to, my family referred to as Back East. And I'll explain why. I don't know if that's common outside our family or if it's just something that was in our family, but that's how we referred to our relatives, you know, as Back East.

Well, my family came here from Sicily in the 1900s. My great-grandfather's brother was the lieutenant of Joe Pirello, who was the head of the Cleveland Mafia at the time. My grandfather was named after him.

And all of this was sort of brought out later. I didn't know a lot of this necessarily growing up. But what I did know, well, let me say this. So before I was ever born, my grandfather was forced to go out west by his family, his immediate family, for various reasons.

And so that's where I was born and raised. I didn't know a lot of the relatives very well back east. I would only hear about them. But one thing I knew when I would go over to my grandfather's house was this was a very different kind of place than many other places I would go to.

So his brothers would be there. And these guys just seemed very different than a lot of other people. They had they had tempers that were explosive, that were off the charts. And one day I remember watching Goodfellas and I remember thinking, my goodness, these guys seem just like my relatives.

Now, none of my relatives, my immediate relatives, like my grandfather, his brothers and so forth, were in the mafia, to be very clear. But they were part of that culture. And so that was just the sort of thing I was raised in.

It was very common to see people immediately fly off the handle at certain things. I learned at one point in my youth not to tell my grandfather if something happened in the neighborhood because my grandfather was potentially going to do something terribly destructive.

So I just I stopped telling my grandfather. But anyways, I grew up in Southern California then and there were a lot of gangs and it just was part of my mentality, I think in part because of this context.

It seemed very natural to me. I had a very terrible temper and a bent towards crime and other things. I was getting in trouble from my youth up. Well, in any case, I my parents, when I was 17, decided to move from California to Las Vegas, hoping that changing my environment would also change my behavior.

So you might say they were Pelagians without knowing it. They thought that the primary explanation for my immoral behavior was due to factors outside of myself and not because I had a corrupt heart. Well, we got to Vegas and it just took me a couple of months to fall in with a similar group of friends to my old friends.

And I was often running and getting in trouble again, engaging in gang activity, also a lot of theft. At one point I stole a car. It was the car, the car in this case belonged, the one I got caught for, belonged to the son of Floyd Lamb, who was a very prominent figure in Vegas.

He actually was sheriff there for like 30 years. There's a street named after him, a park named after him, very connected family. And I got arrested for that. Those charges were eventually dropped, but I got in trouble for another car that eventually stuck.

So I went to prison. I had just turned 18, went to prison. And while I was in prison, I was put in a jail cell with a self-professed devil worshiper. I still look back on that day and I think, yeah, I think what an incredible providence.

Wait till you hear what happened in this. So I went into jail looking at potentially being sentenced and doing prison time with no thought of God in my mind at all. My Sicilian background meant that I was lightly influenced by Catholicism, but it didn't play any major factor in my upbringing.

In any case, so I'm in there and I'm housed with this devil worshiper. He'd make jokes and he'd drop pentagrams on the ceiling above my bed. He'd do all this weird stuff. Odd as it is to say, he was actually a pretty nice fellow to get along with, you know, in the prison.

But he did have an ax to grind against God and the Bible. And so he would say stuff and every once in a while I would push back against it. Like it just sounded like he was making stuff up, even though I had no invested interest in the Bible.

I didn't care in a sense if what he was saying was right or wrong. I just didn't think he was being accurate. Well, at one point as I was challenging him, he said, hey, he goes, I can tell you how to get a Bible and then I'll show you what I'm talking about.

So I entertained this. I said, OK, how do I get a Bible? So he told me to fill out what's called a kite, which is a request for a Bible. This was 30 years ago. I still remember I never met this lady, but the Bible came to me from a Christian lady who supplied Bibles to inmates.

Her name was Bonnie Polly. I didn't think to look her up until several years ago, and I lament that it took so long because I looked her up and she had just died months before that. But in any case, this Christian woman sent me a Bible and this devil worshiper couldn't show me what he thought he could.

He just couldn't find anything that he was claiming is there. And now I'm sitting there with this Bible and nothing else to do. Very little distractions in jail. You know, every once in a while you can watch TV in the common area or something, but most of the time you're locked up.

And so I started reading the Bible more for entertainment purposes. But as I was reading the Bible, I was absolutely terrified from beginning to end. In Genesis 3, I read that God banished Adam and Eve from his presence simply, what I thought then was simply, for the reason of taking of the forbidden fruit.

I now realize that it wasn't so simple. This was high-handed rebellion. The Lord made them, they depended entirely upon him. He gave them everything, but withheld from them only the fruit of that tree.

And their rebellion showed a high-handedness and so forth. But I learned from that that God doesn't see sin as a trifling matter and he'll hold people accountable and that accountability is quite stiff.

But it doesn't stop there. You go to Cain and God banishes him further from his presence. Cain doesn't think this is a light punishment. In Genesis 6 and following, you have the story of the flood where God destroys the entire world, sparing no one except for eight.

It wasn't exactly clear to me why these eight got saved. I learned better about that later. But at the time, what I see is just God is full of vengeance towards evil. You get to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the Lord sends fire down out of heaven.

I get to Leviticus, for example, and I see fire shooting out of God's presence to consume the sons of Aaron for offering unauthorized fire. Just this constant, it seemed, unrelenting message that God is holy, just, righteous, and won't wink at sin, but will prove himself to be the just avenger of his own holiness and righteousness and so forth.

And I knew that I was a sinner. Along with this, this is really a critical point for me, was I was listening to other inmates try and justify why they were there, try and give some account to explain their predicament, and I'm listening to this looking for my own excuse.

I'm thinking maybe somebody has something because I need peace here. I didn't care about being in jail at this point. I didn't care about my other issues. What I cared about was I was guilty before a holy God and didn't understand the gospel at all in any of this.

And I read the entire Bible in two months. It was in the jail. And then I read it again when they moved me from the jail to the prison. I was locked down even more because they have a quarantine period before you get into the general population of the prison yard, they have you locked in a two-man cell for 23 hours a day, you only get out for one hour, so I had a lot of time to read, read the Bible twice, once in the jail and once in the quarantine of the prison.

Well, terrified by all this, but I'm listening to people and I heard one guy say, well, I came from a broken family. And I thought to myself, well, wait a minute. I didn't come from a broken family. My family was together.

I mentioned the terrible fury of some of my relatives in the face of something they didn't like, but it wasn't directed towards family members. It was directed towards those outside. So I had a loving family.

My parents were together. My parents, I never saw my own parents fight ever. They were together for 50 years. My dad died five years ago, actually, five years ago to the day yesterday. And I never saw them fight in my presence once.

So I had a good family context. So I thought, man, if that's a good excuse, then I don't have that. That makes me look worse, I think, than this guy. And then I heard somebody else say I came from a bad neighborhood and I thought, well, I didn't necessarily come from the worst of neighborhoods and I often sought out bad neighborhoods to live in and hang out in or move and so forth.

And so I thought that's not my excuse. And then I heard other people say they were poor and I thought, well, I always had food, clothing, shelter, but I just felt like I was worse than these other guys, and then I thought about it even further and I thought, well, wait a minute, I know people that came from broken families, poverty, bad neighborhoods, and they didn't do the things I did.

So even if those were available to me, they're not, you know, I don't have an excuse and neither do these guys. And it just really drove home this fact that I'm a sinner and deserve his just wrath and displeasure.

And I was terrified. I didn't know what to make of any of this. I saw no hope of escape. But one thing I'll say about that is this, and I think this is, it's something I'm, when I listen to other people talk sometime about their beliefs, which differ from those of Orthodox Christianity, I often think this sort of thing is missing, but when I read the Bible, it read to me as the voice of God.

I didn't, you know, there was no sense of, you know, how do I know this is God's word kind of thing? It spoke with divine authority. It spoke accurately to my sin and it had a conviction to it that I couldn't escape.

And, you know, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. Well, that was my experience. I heard in scripture, the voice of God, and I couldn't just cast this aside. And so I was terrified for months.

I was terrified.

I couldn't even sleep. You know, a prisoner wants to sleep to escape his jail situation, to not think about it as much as he can. I couldn't even go to sleep with peace because I'd be terrified awake from my dreams.

You know, I felt like Nero, you know, if you read the accounts of Nero, he was a man that was plagued in conscience. The leaves would rustle and Nero would be hiding under his bed. You know, well, that was kind of me.

I was like, I wanted to sleep, but even my dreams were terrifying. Well, so anyways, making this long story short, a gospel minister, a PCA minister was coming out to the prison. Eventually I was able to go and listen to him.

And I finally, in the course of this, I'm speeding things up a bit, but I heard the gospel. And I realized that I was missing the grace of God all along the way in scripture, even from the very beginning.

Way back in Genesis, when our first parents were banished from the garden, God sent them packing with this great promise, right? I'll put enmity between you, Satan, or the serpent and the woman, and between your seed and hers, he will crush your head and you'll bruise his heel.

So God is promising that he'll send a saving seed into the world who will undo the work of Satan and redeem mankind. And then that promise develops. And in the case of Noah, I read in Genesis six, where it says, but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

So that explains why Noah's family wasn't destroyed as everybody else was. And then the gospel of grace just stood out to me on every page. So the gospel flooded my soul. I was immediately desirous of telling other people the gospel.

I assumed that people would be excited about this good news, but I quickly realized that not everybody's excited. Some people want to argue and fight against this, which made no sense to me. It's like offering somebody a million dollars and having them try and hit you.

I thought, well, this makes no sense. I'm telling them how they could have life and salvation in Jesus Christ. And here they are thinking I'm their worst enemy. But that got me into apologetics. My original interest was evangelistic.

It became apologetical. In addition to that, I became interested in apologetics because it was always relevant in the course of evangelizing to have an answer for people. So it wasn't simply to argue with people.

It was because I wanted them to hear the gospel and I knew they would have objections. And then eventually I went through all the education I needed. I had to do a lot of remedial work. I went and got a GED, then a high school diploma, then a college degree, then seminary degree.

After getting out of prison, I did all that and then became a pastor. And now I'd serve in prison ministry.

Well, I'm assuming that PCA pastor that visited prison had something to do with your coming to the Reformed faith.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is why, so this is another thing built into that. Well, one of the things I loved about my context was I read the Bible, unlike, you know, unfortunately, I mean, this should just be like first thing any Christian does, but unlike a number of Christians, I read the Bible and I read it several times before being converted and had a lot of time to continually read it since then.

I read it many, many, many more times during my stay in prison and haven't stopped reading it to this very day, 30 years later. But at that time, I was removed from a lot of influences. And even this PCA minister's influence was very limited.

He didn't say a whole lot about certain things because our time together was limited. So most of what took place for me was reading my Bible, meditating on it, and so forth. And when it comes to the Reformed faith, I could remember because, okay, when I remember, you know, I'm reading the Bible, but I'm reading and I say I'm reading the whole thing and I'm reading the whole thing in a very short period of time over and over again, right?

So we're talking a month here, two months there. That means I would come across certain sections of scripture quite frequently. And I learned to sort of put up my guard in the sense when I was coming to certain sections that I thought were very rough going.

So as an example, one passage that was rough going, I used to think, was Isaiah 10. That's the passage where it says, Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger. Because in that text, if you read the whole thing, it's, and even just that line, is very pregnant with significance with respect to the sovereignty of God, the gravity of man, and how this relates and so forth.

But notice there, God refers to Assyria as the rod of his anger. In the context, he's talking about the fact that he's going to use Assyria to chastise his wayward people. In the context, it says, I send it against a godless nation.

The godless nation is Israel that's gone a whoring after other gods. So Assyria is going to be used by God to punish Israel. It's a rod in his hand. Just like the Proverbs say, a father who spoils or spares the rod spoils his child, and the rod is meant for the back of fools, and the rod of discipline drives folly far from the fool.

Well, this is how God is dealing with the folly of his people. He's using a nation to do it. He's calling it his rod. Well, that meant that God is ultimately sovereign in this whole affair. He, you can't just say this was an accident or this is wholly to be ascribed to the will of the Assyrians.

This is something that God himself is claiming he is ultimately behind and orchestrating. But then it says, remember the first word, woe to Assyria. Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger. God is not just saying that Assyria is going to be used as his instrument of wrath, but he's going to punish Assyria.

Well, how does that work? And you read the context and it says that though Assyria is being used, it doesn't know that it's being used by God. God is using the sinful desires of Assyria to plunder and do all these things to his own holy ends.

It's like Augustine said, God can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick. Assyria is a crooked stick and God is striking a straight blow with it. So her evil intentions are her own, but God is using them to accomplish his purpose.

And so I learned from that, that God was sovereign. But at first, when I read that sort of thing, I was like, this is hard. This is hard teaching. And I would see the same thing in the gospels. When Jesus in John six, for example, saying people have to eat his flesh and drink his blood, which he explains there as believing in him and coming to him.

They have to do that if they're going to have life. And this is offensive to people. And when he's told this is offensive, then he ups the ante and says, you can't even come to me to have life, right?

Unless you've been enabled to do so by the father.

And I remember just to interrupt you briefly. I remember having a friendly dispute with a Roman Catholic friend when he was trying to convey the idea that John six proves that Jesus was teaching the Roman Catholic mass and that those who turned away were like Protestants who were repulsed by the fact that they were misunderstanding Jesus's words, that they thought he was talking about cannibalism.

And he said, so it's Roman Catholicism that's being taught here. And those that turned away are like you Protestants. And I said, no, if you listen more carefully or read more carefully, what actually was the straw that broke the camel's back with Jesus's hearers was that no one can come to him unless it is given him by the father.

That's Calvinism.

Right. Absolutely.

Yeah, there's so many problems here for the Roman Catholic. Number one, Jesus explains exactly how people eat and drink, how they come to him and eat his flesh. In verse 35, it says, I am the bread of life.

He who comes to me will not hunger. So he's using these metaphors, bread, hunger, satisfied, and so forth, but they refer to the spiritual exercise of faith by which we receive him and are nourished by him.

And that's very clear, you know. But the other problems are, Jesus said, he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life. Do the Roman Catholic partisans believe that everybody who eats the mass has eternal life?

And they also believe those that are ecumenists, which most these days are, with the exception of the far-right traditionalist Catholics who are not ecumenists, but Roman Catholics believe that we, as Protestants, are their separated brethren.

They also believe Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists and Hindus can get to heaven, and even atheists, if they live according to their light. None of these groups, including Protestants, partake in a Roman Catholic mass.

So how can we have life in us?

Yeah, yeah.

Very true.

Yeah.

So it says that coming is what is meant there, not literal eating. Or you might say it's more literal, right? It's the true eating. What we're doing when we chew something with our teeth is but a faint shadow of the reality that Jesus is talking about when he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

So, number one, he explains it as coming to him, which means believing. He says that those who eat have eternal life. Catholics would not say that everybody who takes the mass has eternal life. Moreover, Jesus said everybody who eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life and will never perish.

No Catholic believes that every person who takes the mass will necessarily be saved. But Jesus makes it very clear that they will be. So these are among the many problems in the context for taking this as a reference to the Eucharist.

But for me, the point that I was making with this is that I read these passages and I knew full well, I didn't read Calvin, I didn't read Arminius, and of course, most Arminians haven't read Arminius either, but I hadn't read any of these guys, didn't know their names.

Nobody could have told me, you're just following Calvin. I read these things and understood clearly from Jesus himself, clearly from the prophets, that the God of the Bible is sovereign and I am totally depraved and incapable of coming to him.

And so when I would read these things at first, they were uncomfortable to me, but I didn't have any difficulty seeing them there. They were troublesome to me, but only for a short time. I would come to these passages and I would try and be a speed reader.

As I would get there, I would like run through. I'd be walking slowly through John 1 -5, I'd get to John 6 and suddenly I'd be a speed reader trying to get out of there because I didn't want to think about it too much, but eventually these became glorious truths that at first they were stumbling blocks, I thought, well, this is hard to bear, like the disciples said, but eventually I realized, no, these are comforting truths and I glory in these things today, I don't mean personally, like I have any credit.

The whole point is the God I serve is sovereign and gracious. He brought me to himself. He deserves all glory and praise. I can't take anything to my own credit for any of this. And it's, it's wonderfully comforting.

Amen.

And we have to go to our first commercial break. If you have a question, submit it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

James White here of Alpha and Omega Ministries announcing that this September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson has lined up for me on Thursday, September 18th at 11 AM.

I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's iron sharpens iron radio, free pastors luncheon at church of the living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 30 PM. I'm speaking at Trinity reformed Baptist church of Carlisle on the theme.

Can we trust the Bible is the authentic and inerrant word of God. I hope you can join Chris and me for both events. For more details on the free pastors luncheon, visit iron sharpens, iron radio .com.

That's iron sharpens, iron radio .com. For more details on Trinity reformed Baptist church of visit trbccarlisle .org. That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing. I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity reformed Baptist church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, originally from Cork, Ireland. The Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the second London Baptist confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune God.

We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ. In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every Sunday.

We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at TRBCCarlisle .org. That's TRBCCarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon. This program is sponsored by Hope TR ministry.

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