February 27, 2017 Show with Tim J. R. Trumper on “Preaching & Politics: Engagement Without Compromise”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of February 2017 and in studio with me is my co-host the Reverend buzz Taylor.

Great to see you buzz. Once again, and we are going to be interviewing today a guest who is returning to iron sharpens iron dr. Tim Jr. Trumper senior minister of Seventh Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan with an online ministry center at from his fullness comm and he is going to be discussing preaching and politics.

Engagement without compromise. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron. Dr. Tim Jr. Trumper. And for those of our listeners who have just discovered you for the first time dr. Trumper.

Before coming to accept the call to the ministry in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Where were you born and raised?

Well, I was a southwest corner a beautiful county called Pembrokeshire and I was converted at the age of 15 and After that studied politics at the University of Wales and then Sensed a call to the ministry towards the end of that undergraduate degree and Made my way then to Edinburgh to train for the ministry at what's now called Edinburgh Theological Seminary.

Then it was called the Free Church of Scotland College. So that's a bit about my background and and my interest in both theology and politics. Now, I can't remember off the top of my head, but are.

You familiar with my former pastor who just left the States and returned to the UK David Campbell.

Yes, I've met David a number of times and so thankful for him and I've preached at his former church in Darlington, England and have met up with him also in Carlisle, but Interested to learn that he's gone back to the United Kingdom.

Yes. He is now pastoring in northern England and I hope to.

Have him back as a guest in the program this time for the first time on the phone from overseas, but seventh Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan. A number of Our reformed listeners who have been Calvinists for Decades may recall a dr. John R DeWitt who was pastor at Seventh Reformed Church for quite a number of years.

Denominational Drift and Independent Reformed Church Identity

Seventh Reformed Church used to be at one time as you know in the RCA denomination the Reformed Church of America or in America. And That denomination, although there are godly men faithful to the scriptures still in that denomination it has by and large been overcome by Liberalism and the power of positive thinking hasn't it and in Seventh Reformed Church is no longer a part of that denomination.

No, they parted ways in 1995 and that was during dr. DeWitt's tenure as senior minister from 1993 to 2000. I can't really speak to the Reformed Church in America today. But like you say we do believe in the communion of the Saints and the thankful for the Lord's faithful people wherever they are.

And it's seventh Reformed Church an independent reformed congregation.

Yes, it has been these last 21 years and Because of the radio broadcast we broadcast twice on the Lord's Day 11 o 'clock in the morning 7 o 'clock in the evening and have attracted over the years people from varying different denominational backgrounds.

It's it's been a difficult issue to settle the matter of Denominational affiliation. So right now the church is committed to doing its work faithfully as an independent congregation but still linked to the wider church and Seventh is currently a member of the World Reformed Fellowship and in that way we've tried to Demonstrate that our independency is not an isolationism, but simply best for the church right now.

I'm gonna give our email address right off the top of the bat here. Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com and please give us your First name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and If you prefer to remain anonymous for one reason or another perhaps you disagree with your own pastor on the topic.

We are discussing. You may feel free to remain anonymous and we will grant that request. But otherwise, please give us Your first name city and state and country of residence what we are discussing today preaching and politics.

Engagement without compromise. Tell us about what was the catalyst behind writing this book?

Well, I think there were two things first of all my own personal personal journey. Um, I was mentioned earlier. I studied for a politics degree at the University of Wales between 1985 and 1988 and Throughout that time there. I pondered what the Lord was Calling me to and came to the conclusion that he was calling me to pastoral ministry.

But I never lost Interest in politics. I wouldn't say that. I'm a political geek or political guru. I wouldn't say that at all but I do retain an interest and then in terms of my vocation moving in 1999 from the United Kingdom to the United States you can't help but notice various differences as well as the similarities and that intrigued me and I thought.

Especially in the run-up to the 2008 presidential election to think through and to pray through what were my own Responsibilities as a pastor and as preacher and somebody who seeks to seek think theologically.

What is my Responsibility in terms of pulpit ministry to to the political season as it was then. I think Some of what I wrote in the book that was published in 2009 has come to pass especially in terms of the culture war and the trajectory of President Obama's Tenure as president, but the the principles are abiding even though we're under a new president now.

Let me read a commendation for your book. In this book. Dr. Trumper has done a superb job of Identifying the crucial questions that a preacher must consider with respect to the relationship between preaching and the political process.

Not only that Dr. Trumper has provided clear scriptural guidance to all Christians preachers and non-prick preachers alike Who genuinely desire to honor their Lord by living according to the unchanging Word of God in the rapidly changing world That we now inhabit as with any good sermon.

Dr. Trumper provides concrete examples Which bring his analysis to bear with biblical force both on those with Republican leanings and those with Democratic leanings. This is an outstanding book and that was Samuel T Logan jr. International director of the World Reformed Fellowship quite a powerful Commendation.

We already have a listener in Slovenia Who has a question Joe and Slovenia's asks, please? Ask dr. Trumper to address the question of whether or not a pastor should refrain from speaking from the pulpit on topics touching on politics in order to not Endanger the church's tax-exempt status.

Thank you for serving the church in such a powerful way.

Thank you Joe in Slovenia and wonderful question well that question was really at the heart of my own research into the subject and I began with the title something like Politics on the pulpit, but I realized that the book was not so much about politics as it was about preaching and So I looked at the polarization in America.

And of course in America, you have to make a political decision to know where to get your news You if you're a left-wing you go to certain Outlets and if you're a right-wing you go to certain outlets.

And so that was a struggle for me and I thought in that Polarization what what do I do. And then I looked at the Polarization with regard to the responses to that problem, and I saw that it were basically polar opposite views one of the apolitical view in which we basically stick to the gospel narrowly defined and to issues of holiness of life.

That's the apolitical point of view. And then I saw that there was the party political point of view and that preachers were Jumping at the bits really to say what they really thought about party politics from the pulpit but we're in danger of Running up against the tax exempt Code and the IRS expectations with regard to that.

So I came then down on this via media position of being biblically political and I felt that we need to expound the scriptures and To do so in their The full array of issues and to teach the people not only what a given passage says But also how to read the Bible for ourselves so that when the political season comes around We don't have to rush in some sort of panic to To guide our people as to how they are to vote nor are we to transgress their consciences?

But rather by weakly expounding the scriptures and Applying them to the culture in which we live. The people themselves would would be able to draw the dots as to what scripture might think on this issue or that issue guidelines that it gives.

So Yeah.

Well, it's interesting. Well, it's interesting. You said that if you're Right-leaning you usually go to certain media outlets and if you're left-leaning you you go to others and obviously the Choices are much more abundant if you're left-leaning because the the mainstream media is Obviously painfully and palpably obviously leaning to the left.

For instance, I I am convinced that a Television news anchorman on a station that might Describe itself as being neutral and they're just to deliver the news as it is Given them. I am sure that most of those stations which are in reality left-leaning Would fire an anchor man or woman if they were to report the news of a famous male celebrity marrying quote-quote another man.

If they did not deliver that news with a beaming smile on their face I would guarantee you that they would be terminated probably that night or that day. Every time you hear the news of such horrifying events You typically will see an ear to ear smile and even sometimes a word of congratulations to the happy happily married couple.

Whereas.

We who are conservative it's not so easy because even if you were to go let's say to Fox News, which is Become a mainstay for conservatives. There are different Opinions expressed on Fox News, which may be a healthy sign, but I don't always agree which with that which is Painted as a conservative view.

Because very often I think that my views are in reality more conservative than many who claim to be conservative. So it's not as it's not always an easy task for a conservative to find a media outlet when it comes to the news and so on.

And Of course, oh by the way, Joe in Slovenia. You are getting a free copy of the book. We are discussing preaching and politics engagement without compromise by dr. Tim jr. Trumper. Thank you very much for providing us with an American address where we will send that book to your daughter in, Georgia.

And that will be a compliments of our guest Dr. Tim jr. Trumper and also compliments of the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm CV BBS comm and they mail out all of our winners their free Bibles books and DVDs on occasion and CDs and other things.

And by the way those of you who have been waiting patiently for over a month for some of your book Bibles and books that you have won because of a delay that occurred largely due to my.

Traveling.

Recently and having things unfortunately slipped through the cracks Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service is working Diligently to make sure that most of those things are shipped out this week. So you should finally God willing Receive those things that you've been waiting for in a matter of days and I apologize for the delay on that.

We thank you so much for being patient with us and a few of you have been contacting me wondering. Where's my Bible? Where's my book, but I appreciate your patience with me. One thing I'm sorry. Dr. Trump.

Are we gonna say something?

Any others listening that I've come across a very good study by the Pew Forum on this whole notion of taxes and status and I can't go into all the Qualifications the details. It's a very lengthy document probably 22 pages with examples.

It was published I believe in 2012 but if you look that up online You'll find all the advice you need with regard to what? Ministers can do and What's they what they cannot do. In churches likewise and religious organizations, it's very helpful indeed.

And a reverend buzzed. Yeah, well, you know.

Just.

My first impression I remember over the years hearing so many times that what you never discuss in public is Politics and religion and here we are today Talking about both of them and yet there is nothing that affects our lives more than politics and Religion, but of course from the religious side from the Christian perspective.

You know, I I know Spurgeon made the comment, you know. He wouldn't stoop to be a king since he's a preacher and you know, all these things. I'm aware of all this but yet we are so affected by politics.

So what is your view towards our involvement with politics as a Christian and are discussing and the role of a church? If you will if there is such a role that exists.

The Christian's Role in Politics and the Church's Role in Public Life

Well That's a very open question. You know, it also obviously impinges upon the debate over two kingdoms theology and the difference between Those who would argue for two kingdoms and those who would argue for the transformational view of the more Kaiperian view.

In fact, we had a debate we had debate on this radio program between the two opposing views about a year ago.

You know, I think we've mentioned this last time Chris there's so many of our debates in our hurdles Perhaps more heat than light and I've tried to Try to weigh Weigh these issues and of course when I wrote the book preaching and politics that debate was just coming to the fore.

So I haven't really addressed that specifically in there, but I do notice that David Van Drunen from Westminster Seminary California has has a footnote in one of his books describing me as a transformationalist, but I think the difference in that debate we define the kingdom and That's one of the aspects which I've not seen really Teased out in the debate.

So when you look at the scriptures, you've got the universal kingdom of God God's Sovereign reign over all things. I think that's what Kuiper is referring to when he speaks about there's not a square inch Where Jesus does not say this is mine and then you've got the two kingdom view which is more related it seems to me to the Intermediatorial kingdom of the Lord Jesus which spreads through the conversion of people and the reign of Jesus Christ over the heart.

So I think that speaking past each other both both are true and I think When I go back now and look at that book, I think I try to capture both aspects on the one hand salt and light in society. We cannot change people's hearts.

But we can promote laws which restrain evil responsibility to stand up against injustice because The very foundation of God's throne is justice but on the other hand of the specifically the church were to preach the gospel as preachers were to expound the scriptures and Help people think Christianly and help them act Christianly during the week and so I don't think it's an either-or I think it's a it's a both-on and I don't think the pursuit of the transformation of society should Subvert the primacy of the preaching of the gospel.

But on the other hand the preaching of the gospel should encourage us to be in Interested in social righteousness as well as personal righteousness. We've all heard.

Preachers on the radio that you know, I have Felt sorry for their congregations because that all they get for the most part is a steady diet of.

Politics. I mean when we come into worship, but this is this is what the heart of the book worship is about God. Not not first and foremost about me. And it's not even for first and foremost about our society or the United States.

The United Kingdom. It's about Coming aside to hear from God about his glory and his greatness. And everything flows flows from there. And I I would want us in this this discussion about theology or politics to To keep God's glory to the fore.

We have an anonymous listener from rim Riverhead, New York who wants to know why is it that it seems the? african-american churches freely endorse political candidates every time an election cycle Arises and they do so with impunity.

There is never any backlash and the the candidates openly speak from their pulpits without fear of any kind of penalty or persecution.

Why I can't. I can't speak for the african-american community. But I can say from reading the document produced by the Pew Forum that it's very complicated issue and it may well be that Whereas the African community african-american community stretches the limits Other communities underplay them.

I do read in the document produced by the Pew Forum that in order for there to be follow-up on On this issue then there needs to be documented evidence of a minister or a church going beyond the bounds of what of what is permitted.

I may well be that that has not occurred because the evidence has not been there or because The IRS as is stated in this document doesn't follow up Unless there's documented evidence in the history of violation of the principle.

Yes, and there may be. That we don't know. There may be conservatives being invited to speak there as well. And only the liberals are accepting the invitations. We don't know what's going on there. Right, and I have even heard from conservative Theologically conservative and politically conservative black Christians and pastors that I know who are very concerned that the focus of much of African American Christian Christianity if you could put a label on something like that or the black church at large is that it has become a social gospel by and large more focused on political activism than on the gospel, but they have also said as a way of explanation that the history of the black church because they were in reality in Not the not-so-distant past.

I mean it wasn't that long ago when there were Jim Crow laws. That the church was a safe haven for blacks to do more than just gather for worship the church buildings were used for all kinds of public activism and issues where the community could join together in solidarity on certain matters that went beyond the pale of religious activity, so that's one of the reasons why we have that according to what I have heard and.

But thank you very much anonymous Listener, and if you give me your full name and mailing address and I will not obviously disclose it on the air. You will also receive a free copy of the book preaching and politics engagement without compromise by our guest.

Dr Tim jr. Trumper and. And we're gonna go to a break right now if you'd like to join Them those folks who have already asked questions if you'd like to join them with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen a gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and we look forward to hearing from you Very soon with your questions.

We already do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered. And we will get to your questions as soon as we can, but don't go away. We will be right back. God willing after these messages.

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Everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsett. If you just tuned us in our guest today is dr Tim jr. Trump er. We are discussing his book preaching and politics engagement without compromise.

In studio with me is the Reverend buzz Taylor who is my co-host today and We look forward to hearing from you and your questions at Chris Arnsett at gmail .com. Chris Arnsett at gmail .com and Arnie and Perry County wants to know dr Trump or how to respond to his friends who say that the pulpit is no place for preaching on abortion and Homosexuality.

Those are political issues. That's should stay out of the church.

Preaching on Abortion, Homosexuality, and Other Moral Issues

Well, that's a good question, too. I noticed that there are some issues in the American political scene which are deemed to be party political. But from a Christian standpoint. Would not be so. But what I'm saying in the book is that exposition consecutive exposition is the key really to dealing with the teaching of Scripture and the ethics of Scripture.

Holistic sense. And I think one of the strengths of Consecutive exposition is that you deal with Issues as they come up in the text and when you do that, then you're not deemed to be riding a hobby horse.

You're not deemed to be getting at somebody in the congregation. You're simply dealing with the text that's before you on any given Sunday. And if people hang around long enough that they can see that and respect that.

And so I would say to you to your friend. Well This is the scripture Paul says to Timothy all scripture is profitable and we deal in our church with Issues if you're dealing with them sermon on the sixth commandment, you shall not kill.

Then that would be an unnatural application and you can think of a whole array of texts or Sermon series in which that might be be the case. And so For the Christian, it's the scripture that sets the agenda not the political scene in any given Chapter of American life or place of American life and we need to hold hold that to be the case and we lose respect.

I think when we allow the political scene and the political agenda to determine Ultimately what what we preach and what we what we say.

Yeah, in fact, I think a preacher a pastor Would be in serious sin if he did not warn his congregation about Sins that are prevalent in this country and in this world that are not only killing people physically But sending them to hell For eternity.

I mean in fact those two issues do both you have abortion that is obviously murdering children and So the blood of those murdered children are on the hands of the unrepentant people involved in those murders and You also so you have both the eternal damnation issue and the physical Death issue involved in those physical murder issue and even homosexuality.

First of all the Apostle Paul Even has a serious warning not only to those who practice homosexual sin, but those who give them hearty approval and So we cannot hide behind a fence of neutrality of alleged neutrality or something and this sin of homosexuality Is not only sending people to hell for eternity But it's also killing people not only through AIDS.

But it's amazing I can remember years ago when I arranged a debate with dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries was a reformed Baptist apologist and he debated a liberal Barry Lynn who is an ordained United Church of Christ minister and also a former ACLU attorney it came up in that debate that the the average Lifespan of a male homosexual is decades Shorter than a heterosexual even when you remove AIDS from the equation.

There there is a Reason that I don't even know if science can put a finger on why homosexual men are dying. Even when you remove AIDS and suicide even when you remove those two things out of the equation, so you It would be an injustice.

It would be a Demonstration of a lack of compassion for the souls of men. Just because of the fear of men if they were to remain silent about these issues. Wouldn't they wouldn't they be indeed in sin if they they remain perpetually silent about these very vital areas.

What was men remain silent or was it Lord Acton, but I would also says Edmund Burke yeah, I would also say to your to your callers friend that Our responsibility is to minister to those in the church and with regard to the abortion issue.

It's it's unbelievable to to my mind that 43 of the abortions.

Are.

Performed on on Women or couple pressing members of the Christian Church. However, you define the church. I think it's 23 And 20 Protestant and Roman Catholic, so we have a responsibility to begin by teaching the church why Abortions is wrong, but also with regard to me coming up against up in the church.

Coming out as homosexuals what's happening in society? We have a job and a responsibility to educate according to the scriptures those who are before us.

Well, thank you Arnie. You are also receiving a free copy of the book preaching and politics engagement without compromise if you can. Give us your full mailing address Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We'll get that out to you ASAP. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm and we thank you for contributing to today's show with your question.

If you could even explain a little bit more of what you mean by engagement without compromise.

Well, I'm saying that I think it's irresponsible for the apolitical within the formal society and to be Courageous out of sharing of those who need to share what he's saying.

And.

So I'm saying we need to engage The issues of politics to the degree that the scriptures do and according to the principles of scripture and yet to do it without becoming party political, although I admit in the book that the issue of abortion in particular and The secularist agenda of the Democratic Party Makes it a lot more difficult To come across as non-partisan than it would do.

Otherwise, so I thoroughly Believe that we ought to be speaking to the issues of the day the issues that our people are facing during the week but to do it on the basis of scripture and not on the basis of the agenda of the media or the philosophies that are bounding.

During our time. Yes, and unfortunately the Republican Party is no bastion of pro-life Sentiment either because you have a lot of cowardice in regard to that issue and you also have pro-choice elected officials who are Republican.

I mean in New York, I think every single Republican Candidate that has been elected in New York at least in the governor in Mayor's office for the last several decades. Like governor George Pataki was pro-abortion Mayor Giuliani was pro-abortion.

In fact, I can remember Governor Pataki having some kind of a fundraising dinner years ago when he was still in office, I believe. Where he was raising funds for pro-choice Republicans. It was that was the main focus of the fundraiser.

So, you know. This is a sad thing and even those who claim to be pro-choice are very often very timid very cowardly. That is not a major emphasis in their campaigns typically. They don't want to go too far into pushing away people and bringing upon themselves the wrath of liberals and In fact, I once I once told a friend of mine dr. Efflegard Smith Years ago back in the 90s when he wrote a book on homosexuality called Sodom's second coming I told him that the the only Truly homophobic people I've ever met are politicians because they are so terrified of homosexuals That they will typically seek to appease them in any way possible.

But.

Anyway, it is a very sad situation.

That we are saying about the issue of abortion is also true with regard to the lock house lock cabin, yes. So it's and people people need to need to understand that. So when I talk about engagement without Compromise, I'm not talking about engagement without controversy.

I've learned trying to apply the principles of the book that you can simply expound the scriptures and Apply it to the political scene as you see it leaving the chips before where they may.

And.

Be deemed to be party political because you are not supporting the party of choice as much as you should do. But I firmly believe that it's the prophetic element of the preaching of the word that we are to declare the word and to apply it without favor and To let God do the work on top of that.

One thing that I'd like to ask you about on the opposite end of the spectrum of this Is that I I have felt very uncomfortable with some of my Friends in the pastoral ministry who are Almost in lockstep with me theologically but who Will aggressively and publicly support candidates by name and so on.

For instance some who did that with Donald Trump when he was running for the office of president and. And I would tell these folks that I felt very uncomfortable with a pastor by name Pushing the candidacy of a specific individual because when you are behind that sacred desk And the people who are listening to you expect you to be talking about The inerrant scriptures things about which there is no debate things that are Objectively true things that involve eternal life.

And then when you start mixing in with the same passion and Enthusiasm things that could turn out eventually to backfire on you even if it was somebody who was Has a far less dubious reputation as Donald Trump has had.

You could have somebody who you know turns out to be involved in such Horrible scandals. Later on they could be revealed or exposed as being adulterers.

Homosexuals.

Or any host of a number of scandalous activities and. It really taints, I believe. The gospel that you have been preaching before and after this person was elected. Am I off base or going overboard here?

No, well to go back to the Pew Forum and the document that they produced and they are not producing it to push any any Line or other other than to simply understand the IRS expectations I think naming a candidate with a clear sense of preference for that candidate Would station is I think it must be in a way unrelated that behind the pulpit then that would be expectation as I understand it the whole list of qualifications are found in that document and It's well worth well worth reviewing because I think not only do we Bring the gospel and the Word of God into disrepute.

Disrepute in the eyes of our people when we do that. We bring the gospel and the Word of God into disrepute amongst those in the community whom we're trying to serve and We are narrowing down the prospects of the success of the gospel in the community because we are meant to serve all the community not simply One sector of the community, so I feel very passionate for instance in our own church that When we try as we are to reach out to a cross-cultural community.

That they do not come into our church and think that we are some sort of front for one party or another. But that their salvation and the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is front and center in our in our aspiration.

But did you have some. Well, I'm just wondering a little bit more about the content of your book. Could you tell us a little bit more about some of the subjects that you like? What are your chapter headings and so forth?

Oh, yeah, sure. Well in the book The first chapter has to do with What? Well the method of what I call the biblical Political approach so it lays out what the apolitical approach is like what the party political approach is like and then advocates for the Biblical political approach and calls it the middle way and then in the second chapter It really lays out the reason supporting The middle way and I think it gives about seven seven reasons as to why we ought to pursue the biblical political approach As opposed to the apolitical or party political approach.