February 27, 2017 Show with Tim J. R. Trumper on “Preaching & Politics: Engagement Without Compromise”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening the live streaming

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of February 2017 and in studio with me is my co -host the

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Reverend buzz Taylor great to see you buzz Oh once again, and we are going to be interviewing today a guest who is returning

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To iron sharpens iron dr. Tim jr. Trumper Senior minister of Seventh Reform Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan with an online ministry center at from His fullness calm and he is going to be discussing preaching and politics

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Engagement without compromise and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

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Dr. Tim jr. Trumper The invitation

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I'm glad to speak with you and for those of our listeners who have just Discovered you for the first time.

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Dr. Trumper Before coming to accept the call to the ministry in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

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Where were you born and raised? Well, I was born in Wales in the southwest corner a beautiful county called

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Pembrokeshire and I was converted at the age of 15 and After that studied politics at the

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University of Wales and then Sensed a call to the ministry towards the end of that undergraduate degree and Made my way then to Edinburgh to train for the ministry at what's now called

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Edinburgh theological seminary Then it was called the Free Church of Scotland College So that's that's a bit about my background and and my interest in both theology and politics now,

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I can't remember off the top of my head, but are You familiar with my former pastor who just left the

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States and returned to the UK David Campbell Yes, I've met

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David a number of times and so thankful for him and I've preached at his former church in Darlington, England and Have met up with him also in Carlisle, but Interested to learn that he's gone back to the

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United Kingdom. Yes. He is now pastoring in northern England and I hope to Have him back as a guest in the program this time for the first time on the phone from overseas, but Seventh Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan a number of our

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Reformed listeners who have been Calvinists for Decades may recall a dr.

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John R DeWitt who was pastor at Seventh Reformed Church for quite a number of years Seventh Reformed Church used to be at one time as you know in the

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RCA denomination the Reformed Church of America or in America and That denomination, although there are godly men faithful to the scriptures still in that denomination it has by and large

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Been overcome by liberalism and the power of positive thinking hasn't it?

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And in Seventh Reformed Church is no longer a part of that denomination Now they parted ways in 1995 and that was during dr.

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DeWitt tenuous senior minister from 1993 to 2000 I can't really speak to the

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Reformed Church in America today but Like you say we do believe in the communion of the

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Saints and the thankful for the Lord's faithful people wherever they are And it's Seventh Reformed Church an independent reformed congregation yes, it has been these last 21 years and Because of the radio broadcast we broadcast twice on the

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Lord's Day 11 o 'clock in the morning 7 o 'clock in the evening and have attracted over the years people from varying different denominational backgrounds

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It's it's been a difficult issue to settle the matter of Denominational affiliation.

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So right now the church is committed to doing its work faithfully as an independent congregation but still linked to the wider church and Seventh is currently a member of the

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World Reformed Fellowship and in that way we've tried to Demonstrate that our independency is not an isolationism, but simply

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The best for the church right now I'm gonna give our email address right off the top of the bat here

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Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com

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and Please give us your First name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA and If you prefer to remain anonymous for one reason or another perhaps you disagree with your own pastor on the topic

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We are discussing You may feel free to remain anonymous and we will grant that request.

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But otherwise, please give us Your first name city and state and country of residence what we are discussing today preaching and politics

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Engagement without compromise tell us about what was the catalyst behind writing this book?

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Well, I think there were two things first of all my own personal personal journey. Um, I was mentioned earlier.

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I studied for a politics degree at the University of Wales between 1985 and 1988 and Throughout that time there.

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I pondered what the Lord was Calling me to and came to the conclusion that he was calling me to pastoral ministry

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But I never lost Interest in politics. I wouldn't say that. I'm a political geek or political guru.

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I wouldn't say that at all but I do retain an interest and then in terms of my vocation moving in 1999 from the

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United Kingdom to the United States you can't help but notice various differences as well as the similarities and that intrigued me and I thought especially in the run -up to the 2008 presidential election to think through and to pray through what were my own

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Responsibilities as a pastor and as preacher and somebody who seeks to seek think theologically

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What is my Responsibility in terms of pulpit ministry to to the political season as it was then

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I think Some of what I wrote in the book that was published in 2009 has come to pass especially in terms of the culture war and the trajectory of President Obama's Tenure as president, but the the principles are abiding even though we're under a new president now

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Let me read a commendation for your book In this book.

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Dr. Trumper has done a superb job of Identifying the crucial questions that a preacher must consider with respect to the relationship between preaching and the political process

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Not only that Dr. Trumper has provided clear scriptural guidance to all

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Christians Preachers and non -preachers alike who genuinely desire to honor their

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Lord by living according to the Unchanging Word of God in the rapidly changing world that we now inhabit as with any good sermon

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Dr. Trumper provides concrete examples which bring his analysis to bear with biblical force

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Both on those with Republican leanings and those with Democratic leanings.

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This is an outstanding book and that was Samuel T Logan jr. International director of the

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World Reformed Fellowship quite a powerful Commendation.

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We already have a listener in Slovenia Who has a question Joe and Slovenia's asks, please?

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Ask dr. Trumper to address the question of whether or not a pastor should refrain from speaking from the pulpit on topics touching on politics in order to not

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Endanger the church's tax -exempt status. Thank you for serving the church in such a powerful way

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Thank you, Joe in Slovenia wonderful question well that question was really at the heart of my own research into the subject and I began with the title something like Politics on the pulpit, but I realized that the book was not so much about politics as it was about preaching and So I looked at the polarization in America And of course in America, you have to make a political decision to know where to get your news

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You if you're a left -wing you go to certain Outlets and if you're a right -wing you go to certain outlets and so that was a struggle for me and I thought in that polarization what what do

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I do and then I looked at the Polarization with regard to the responses to that problem, and I saw that there were basically two to polar opposite views one of the apolitical view in which we basically stick to the gospel narrowly defined and Two issues of holiness of life.

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That's the apolitical point of view And then I saw that there was the party political point of view and that's preachers were

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Jumping at the bits really to say what they really thought about party politics from the pulpit but we're in danger of Running up against the tax -exempt

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Code and the IRS expectations with regard to that So I came then down on this via media position of being biblically political

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And I felt that we need to expound the scriptures and to do so in the the full array of issues that the scriptures address and To teach the people not only what a given passage says but also how to read the

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Bible for ourselves So that when the political season comes around We don't have to rush in some sort of panic to To guide our people as to how they are to vote nor are we to transgress their consciences?

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but rather by weekly expounding the scriptures and Applying them to the culture in which we live

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The people themselves would would be able to draw the dots as to what scripture might think on this issue or that issue guidelines that it gives so Yeah Well, it's interesting.

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Well, it's interesting. You said that if you're right -leaning you usually go to certain media outlets and if you're left -leaning you you go to others and obviously the

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Choices are much more abundant if you're left -leaning because the the mainstream media is

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Obviously painfully and palpably obviously leaning to the left

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For instance, I I am convinced that a television news anchorman on a station that might

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Describe itself as being neutral And they're just to deliver the news as it is

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Given them. I am sure that most of those stations which are in reality left -leaning Would fire an anchor man or woman if they were to report the news of a famous male celebrity marrying quote -quote another man if They did not deliver that news with a beaming smile on their face

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I would guarantee you that they would be terminated probably that night or that day every time you hear the news of such horrifying events

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You typically will see an ear to ear smile and even sometimes a word of congratulations

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Congratulations to the happy happily married couple whereas We who are conservative.

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It's not so easy because even if you were to go, let's say to Fox News, which is Become a mainstay for conservatives.

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There are different Opinions expressed on Fox News, which may be a healthy sign, but I don't always agree which with that which is

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Painted as a conservative view Because very often I think that my views are in reality more conservative than many who claim to be conservative

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So it's not as it's not always an easy task for a conservative to find a media outlet when it comes to the news and So on and of course, oh by the way

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Joe in Slovenia You are getting a free copy of the book. We are discussing preaching and politics engagement without compromise by dr

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Tim jr. Trumper. Thank you very much for providing us with an American address where we will send that book to your daughter in Georgia And that will be a compliments of our guest

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Dr. Tim jr. Trumper and also compliments of the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm

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CV BBS comm and they mail out all of our winners their free Bibles books and DVDs on occasion and CDs and other things and by the way, those of you who have been waiting patiently for over a month for some of your book

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Bibles and books that you have won because of a delay that occurred largely due to my traveling

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Recently and having things unfortunately slipped through the cracks Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service is working

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Diligently to make sure that most of those things are shipped out this week. So you should finally God willing

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Receive those things that you've been waiting for in a matter of days and I apologize for the delay on that We thank you so much for being patient with us and a few of you have been contacting me wondering.

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Where's my Bible? Where's my book, but I appreciate your patience with me One thing

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I'm sorry. Dr. Trump. Are we gonna say something? Any others listening that I've come across a very good study by the

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Pew Forum on this whole notion of tax exempt status and I can't go into all the

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Qualifications the details. It's a very lengthy document probably 22 pages with examples

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It was published I believe in 2012 but if you look that up online

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You'll find all the advice you need with regard to what? Ministers can do and What's they what they cannot do in churches likewise and religious organizations, it's very helpful indeed

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And a reverend buzzed. Yeah, well, you know just My first impression

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I remember over the years hearing so many times that what you never discuss in public is

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Politics and religion and here we are today Talking about both of them and yet there is nothing that affects our lives more than politics and Religion, but of course from the religious side from the

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Christian perspective You know, I I know Spurgeon made the comment, you know He wouldn't stoop to be a king since he's a preacher and you know, all these things

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I'm aware of all this but yet we are so affected by politics So what is your view towards our involvement with politics as a

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Christian and are discussing and the role of a church? If you will if there is such a role that exists

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Well That's a very open question You know, it also obviously impinges upon the debate over two kingdoms theology and the difference between Those who would argue for two kingdoms and those who would argue for the transformational view the more

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Kitee mean view In fact, we had a bit we had a debate on this radio program between the two opposing views about a year ago

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You know, I think we've mentioned this last time Chris there's so many of our debates in our hurdles

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Perhaps more heat than light and I've tried to Try to weigh Weigh these issues and of course when

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I wrote the book preaching and politics that debate was just coming to the fore So I haven't really addressed that specifically in there, but I do notice that David Van Drunen from Westminster Seminary California has a footnote in one of his books describing me as a transformationalist, but I think the difference in that debate has to do with how we define the kingdom and That's one of the aspects which

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I've not seen really Teased out in the debate. So when you look at the scriptures, you've got the universal kingdom of God God's Sovereign reign over all things.

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I think that's what Kuyper is referring to when he speaks about There's not a square inch where Jesus does not say this is mine

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And then you've got the two kingdom view which is more related it seems to me to the

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Intermediatorial kingdom of the Lord Jesus which spreads through the conversion of people and the reign of Jesus Christ of the heart

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So I think they're speaking past each other Both both are true. And I think

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When I go back now and look at that book, I think I try to capture both aspects on the one hand

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We have responsibility to Be salt and light in society We cannot change people's hearts

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But we can promote laws which restrain evil and I think we have a responsibility to stand up against injustice because The very foundation of God's throne is justice but on the other hand of the specifically the church were to preach the gospel as preachers were to expound the scriptures and Help people think

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Christianly and help them act Christianly during the week and so I don't think it's an either -or

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I think it's a it's a both -on and I don't think the pursuit of the transformation of society should

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Subvert the primacy of the preaching of the gospel But on the other hand the preaching of the gospel should encourage us to be in Interested in social righteousness as well as personal righteousness

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We've all heard preachers on the radio that you know, I have Felt sorry for their congregations because they all they get for the most part is a steady diet of politics

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Yeah, yeah, I mean when we come into worship, but this is this is what the heart of the book worship is about God Not not first and foremost about me and it's not team for first and foremost about our society or the

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United States the United Kingdom it's about Coming aside to hear from God about his glory and his greatness and everything flows flows from there

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And I I would want us in this this discussion about theology or politics to To keep

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God's glory to the fore We have an anonymous listener from rim

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Riverhead, New York who wants to know why is it that it seems the?

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african -american churches freely endorse political candidates every time an election cycle

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Arises and they do so with impunity. There is never any backlash and the the candidates openly speak from their pulpits without fear of any kind of penalty or persecution

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Why I can't I can't speak for the african -american community But I can say from reading the document produced by the

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Pew Forum that it's very complicated issue and it may well be that Whereas the

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African community african -american community stretches the limits Other communities underplay them.

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I do read in the document produced by the Pew Forum that in order for there to be follow -up on On this issue then there needs to be documented evidence of a minister or a church going beyond the bounds of what of what is permitted

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I may well be that that has not occurred because the evidence has not been there or because The IRS as is stated in this document doesn't follow up Unless there's documented evidence in the history of violation of the principle

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Yes, and there may be That we don't know There may be conservatives being invited to speak there as well and only the liberals are accepting the invitations

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We don't know what's going on there and I have even heard from conservative

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Theologically conservative and politically conservative black Christians and pastors that I know

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Who are very concerned that? the focus of much of African American Christian Christianity if you could put a label on something like that or the black church at large is that it has become a social gospel by and large more focused on political activism than on the gospel, but they have also said as a way of explanation that The history of the black church because they were in reality in Not the not so distant past.

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I mean it wasn't that long ago when there were Jim Crow laws That the church

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Was a safe haven for blacks to do more than just gather for worship.

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The church buildings were used for all kinds of public activism and Issues where the community could join together in solidarity on certain matters that went beyond the pale of Religious activity.

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So that's one of the reasons why we have that according to what I have heard and But thank you very much anonymous

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Listener, and if you give me your full name and mailing address and I will not obviously disclose it on the air

24:41

You will also receive a free copy of the book preaching and politics engagement without compromise by our guest dr.

24:50

Tim jr. Trumper and We're gonna go to a break right now If you'd like to join them those folks who have already asked questions if you'd like to join them with a question of your own our email address is

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Is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris a RN Z and a gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA and we look forward to hearing from you Very soon with your questions.

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We already do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered And we will get to your questions as soon as we can but don't go away we will be right back

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Welcome back This is Chris Ornson. If you just tuned us in our guest today is dr. Tim jr.

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Trumper We are discussing his book preaching and politics engagement without compromise in the studio with me is the

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Reverend buzz Taylor who is my co -host today and We look forward to hearing from you and your questions at Chris Ornson at gmail .com

29:30

Chris Ornson at gmail .com and Arnie in Perry County Wants to know dr.

29:36

Trump or how to respond to his friends who say that the pulpit is no place for preaching on abortion and homosexuality

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Those are political issues. That's should stay out of the church Well, that's a good question, too

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I noticed that there are some issues in the American political scene which are deemed to be party political

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But from a Christian standpoint Would not be so But what

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I'm saying in the book is that exposition consecutive exposition is the key really to dealing with the teaching of Scripture and the ethics of Scripture holistic sense and I think one of the strengths of consecutive exposition is that you deal with Issues as they come up in the text and when you do that, then you're not deemed to be riding a hobby horse

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You're not deemed to be getting at somebody in the congregation You're simply dealing with the text that's before you on any given

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Sunday And if people hang around long enough that they can see that and respect that And so I would say to you to your friend.

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Well This is the scripture Paul says to Timothy all scripture is profitable and we deal in our church with Issues as they come up in the text.

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So if you're dealing with them say a Sermon on the sixth commandment you shall not kill

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Then that would be an a natural application and you can think of a whole array of texts or Sermon series in which that might be be the case and so For the

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Christian, it's the scripture that sets the agenda not the political scene in any given

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Chapter of American life or place of American life and we need to hold hold that to be the case and we lose respect

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I think when we allow the political scene and the political agenda to determine

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Ultimately what what we preach and what we what we say Yeah, in fact, I think a preacher a pastor

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Would be in serious sin if he did not warn his congregation about Sins that are prevalent in this country and in this world that are not only killing people physically

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But sending them to hell For eternity. I mean in fact those two issues do both you have abortion that is obviously murdering children and So the blood of those murdered children are on the hands of the unrepentant people involved in those murders and You also you have both the eternal damnation issue and the physical

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Death issue involved in those physical murder issue and even homosexuality

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First of all the Apostle Paul Even has a serious warning not only to those who practice homosexual sin, but those who give them hearty approval and So we cannot hide behind a fence of neutrality of alleged neutrality or something and this sin of homosexuality

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Is not only sending people to hell for eternity But it's also killing people not only through AIDS But it's amazing.

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I can remember years ago when I arranged a debate with dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries was a reformed

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Baptist apologist and he debated a liberal Barry Lynn who is an ordained

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United Church of Christ minister and also a former ACLU attorney it came up in that debate that the the average

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Lifespan of a male homosexual is decades Shorter than a heterosexual even when you remove

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AIDS from the equation there there is a Reason that I don't even know if science can put a finger on why homosexual men are dying

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Even when you remove AIDS and suicide even when you remove those two things out of the equation, so you

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It would be an injustice. It would be a Demonstration of a lack of compassion for the souls of men

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Just because of the fear of men if they were to remain silent about these issues

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Wouldn't they wouldn't they be indeed in sin if they they remain perpetually silent about these very vital areas.

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Oh certainly, um, you know, what was that Edmund Burke said, you know, um evil triumphs when good men remain silent

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I was a Lord Acton, but I would also say is Edmund Burke yeah, I would also say to your

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To your callers friend that Our responsibility is to minister to those in the church and with regard to the abortion issue

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It's it's unbelievable to to my mind that 43 % of the abortions are performed on on women or couples who are professing members of the

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Christian Church so However, you define the church, I think it's 23 %

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And 20 % Protestant and Roman Catholic. So we have a responsibility to begin by teaching the church why?

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Abortion is wrong. But also with regard to a pastoral work

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We are frequently coming up against relatives of those who grew up in the church

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Coming out as homosexual so Irrespective of what's happening in society. We have a job and a responsibility to educate according to the scriptures those who are before us

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Well, thank you Arnie. You are also receiving a free copy of the book preaching and politics engagement without compromise if you can

35:41

Give us your full mailing address Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. We'll get that out to you

35:47

ASAP That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm and we thank you for contributing to today's show with your question

35:57

If you could even explain a little bit more of what you mean by engagement without compromise well

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I'm saying that I think it's irresponsible for The apolitical preacher to bemoan within the four walls of his church the state of society and to be

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Courageous out of sharing of those who need to share what he's saying and So I'm saying we need to engage the issues of politics to the degree that the scriptures do and According to the principles of scripture and yet to do it without becoming party political

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Although I admit in the book that the issue of abortion in particular and the secularist agenda of the

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Democratic Party Makes it a lot more difficult To come across as nonpartisan than it would do.

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Otherwise, so I thoroughly Believe that we ought to be speaking to the issues of the day the issues that our people are facing during the week but to do it on the basis of scripture and not on the basis of the agenda of the media or the philosophies that are bounding

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During our time. Yes, and unfortunately, the Republican Party is no bastion of pro -life

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Sentiment either because you have a lot of cowardice in regard to that issue and you also have pro -choice elected officials who are

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Republican I Mean in New York, I think every single

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Republican Candidate that has been elected in New York at least in the governor and Mayor's office for the last several decades

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Like governor George Pataki was pro -abortion mayor. Giuliani was pro -abortion

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In fact, I can remember Governor Pataki having some kind of a fundraising dinner years ago when he was still in office,

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I believe Where he was raising funds for pro -choice

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Republicans. It was that was the main focus of the fundraiser

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So, you know This is a sad thing and even those who claim to be pro -choice are very often very timid very cowardly

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That is not a major emphasis in their campaigns. Typically, they don't want to go too far into pushing away people and bringing upon themselves the wrath of liberals and In fact,

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I once I once told a friend of mine dr. Efflegard Smith Years ago back in the 90s when he wrote a book on homosexuality called

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Sodom's second coming. I told him that the the only

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Truly homophobic people I've ever met are politicians because they are so terrified of homosexuals

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That they will typically seek to appease them in any way possible But anyway, it is a very sad situation that we are

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You know what you're saying about the issue of abortion is also true with regards to the lock house lock cabin

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Republic yes So it's and people people need to need to understand that.

39:26

So when I when I talk about engagement without Compromise, I'm not talking about engagement without controversy

39:31

I've learned trying to apply the principles of the book that you can simply expound the scriptures and Apply it to the political scene as you see it leaving the chips to fall where they may and Be deemed to be party political because you are not supporting the party of choice as much as you should do

39:50

But I firmly believe that it's the prophetic element of the preaching of the word that we are to declare the word and to apply it without favor and To let

40:02

God do the work on top of that One thing that I'd like to ask you about on the opposite end of the spectrum of this

40:10

Is that I I have felt very uncomfortable with some of my

40:17

Friends in the pastoral ministry who are almost in lockstep with me theologically, but who will aggressively and publicly support candidates by name and so on for instance some who did that with Donald Trump when he was running for the office of president and And I would tell these folks that I felt very uncomfortable with a pastor by name

40:52

Pushing the candidacy of a specific individual because when you are behind that sacred desk and The people who are listening to you expect you to be talking about The inerrant scriptures things about which there is no debate things that are

41:12

Objectively true things that involve eternal life and then when you start mixing in with the same passion and Enthusiasm things that could turn out eventually to backfire on you even if it was somebody who was

41:29

Has a far less dubious reputation as Donald Trump has had

41:36

You could have somebody who you know turns out to be involved in such

41:43

Horrible scandals later on they could be revealed or exposed as being adulterers homosexuals or any host of a number of scandalous activities and It really taints,

42:00

I believe The gospel that you have been preaching before and after this person was elected.

42:06

Am I off base or going overboard here? No, well to go back to the pew forum and the document that they produced and they are not producing it to push any any

42:16

Line or other other than to simply understand the IRS expectations I think naming a candidate with a clear sense of preference for that candidate would transgress

42:30

What the expectation is I think it I think a minister can do it in his own private capacity in a way unrelated to the church but if he does it behind the pulpit then that would be a transgression of the expectation as I understand it the whole list of Qualifications are found in that document and It's it's well worth well worth reviewing because I think not only do we

43:00

Bring the gospel and the Word of God into disrepute disrepute in the eyes of our people when we do that we bring the gospel and the

43:08

Word of God into disrepute amongst those in the community whom we're trying to serve and we are narrowing down the

43:15

Prospects of the success of the gospel in the community because we are meant to serve all the community not simply

43:20

One sector of the community, so I feel very passionate for instance in our own church that When we try as we are to reach out to a cross -cultural community

43:34

That they do not come into our church and think that we are some sort of front for one party or another

43:40

But that their salvation and the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is front and center in our in our aspirations

43:50

Well, did you have some well, I'm just wondering a little bit more about the content of your book Could you tell us a little bit more about some of the subjects that you like?

43:58

What are your chapter headings and so forth? Oh, yeah. Sure. Well The first chapter has to do with What well the method of what

44:09

I call the biblical political approach so it lays out what the a political approach is like what the party political approach is like and then advocates for the

44:22

Biblical political approach and calls it the middle way and then in the second chapter

44:27

It really lays out the reasons supporting The middle way and I think it gives about seven seven reasons as to why we ought to pursue the biblical

44:38

Political approach as opposed to the a political or party political approach and then the third chapter

44:43

It really gives a practical advice as to how to how to operate with that approach

44:49

Why don't you give us those seven reasons? The first the first reason for the biblical political approach the safeguarding of the sanctity of divine worship the second the maintaining of a high view of preaching the third

45:14

Just a few pages here the maximization of the biblical worldview and then the fourth

45:22

Game flicking pages bear with me a minute The ensuring of certain critical biblical emphases such as the lordship of Christ over the conscience the sovereignty of God basically and how elections turn out on the preeminence of the kingdom of heaven the fifth is the protection of congregational unity the

45:50

Improvement of our Christian witness and the seventh would be a moment the upholding of Christian ethics so it it reasons out why when you think of the spirituality of the church, and I think on that point the proponents of two -kingdom theology are spot -on

46:15

We need to protect that and preserve that and make sure worship is in fact worship And all of that was in one chapter

46:23

Yeah Wow, it sounds like it's that that chapter be worth the price of the book

46:37

Yes, and there is even a difference of opinion

46:45

Amongst those that may be very much in harmony on many theological issues, but may disagree over the level of Public righteous indignation a

47:01

Christian may Declare against an elected authority over us for instance there are

47:12

Pastors who said as soon as Barack Obama was sworn into office.

47:18

I radically changed The way that I would refer to him. I would diminish any kind of harsh insulting types of terms

47:28

And they would say the same thing about Bill Clinton before him others don't necessarily go by that strict guideline of Refer how they change the way a person

47:43

Can be described while they're running for office and then after what after they're elected how that might change

47:50

Because of the respect we are supposed to have To those in authority over us, but I cannot help but think back to John Knox who was not exactly

48:02

Tiptoeing around issues with the Queen of England when he was very in her face for lack of a better term with very

48:13

Disparaging and very bold Declarations of her evil and so on if you could comment on what

48:21

I said Yeah, I think we need to be careful with regard to examples from church history because Just because a famous Christian did something doesn't mean to say it's it's right and with regard to John Knox.

48:36

That's an interesting Illustration I remember Being told that Or taught that when he wrote his pamphlet or his tract the trumpet blast against the monstrous regiment of women he was basically

48:56

Sent to Coventry we'd say in Britain. I'm thinking of a better way to put that over here. We'd say he was

49:02

Frowned upon by the other reformers and when he reflected upon that tract He said that the first trumpet blast had blown away all his friends

49:16

So even in that day that harsh century the 16th century there was some

49:23

Disagreement over of what he did there But I think else we try to grow in these things.

49:29

It's it's important to draw a distinction between what we think of the individual and What we think of the office

49:38

Even if we cannot respect what a certain political figure does Personally we still have to respect the office.

49:47

And of course, we've got the teaching of Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2 to speak to that and one of the ways in which we can do it is to make sure that we we pray for our public figures our public representatives and I think it's a good discipline for the mind and For the soul to pray for those

50:07

With whom we might disagree If you mentioned was made earlier of the african -american community of Predominance of the african -american brothers and sisters in Christ vote

50:21

Democratic. It's important for them to pray for a

50:26

Republican president and it's important for other communities within the society Christian communities within the society to pray for Democratic president one of the things we can pray is for their safety

50:39

We can pray for their family. We can pray for their health and we can pray that they would remember that they are accountable ultimately to God and not to the electorate especially

50:50

When they're in a final term of office where they don't have to stand up before the electorate again

50:55

They need to be conscious Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question for I'm just wanting to hear about more of the chapters

51:02

And I have another thought that's starting to form, but let's hear some more chapters. Well, we're gonna go to a break right now

51:08

We'll let him pick up when we return from the break If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question

51:14

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com

51:19

and we still have a few of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the good ole

51:29

USA and Don't go away We will be right back after these messages and we will have more of preaching and politics

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

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01:02:01

This is Chris Arnzen and before we return to our guest on iron sharpens iron Who happens to be a dr

01:02:08

Tim jr. Trumper senior minister of Seventh Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan With an online ministry center at from his fullness .com

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and he is speaking today on preaching and politics engagement without compromise before we

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01:07:02

Well, as I said before our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is dr

01:07:07

Tim jr. Trumper. We are discussing preaching in politics engagement without compromise

01:07:15

Before the break buzz the reverend buzz Taylor my co -host asked you about what some of the other chapter headings might be

01:07:23

Well, thank you Chris and I do pray that the Lord fulfills his will through iron sharpens iron

01:07:30

Well, the book is actually a short book. It's about 80 odd 90 pages

01:07:35

There are only three main chapters and as mentioned the first one Outlines the middle way the biblical political way

01:07:43

The second one and we've mentioned that one talks about the biblical political way being a spiritual way and then the final main chapter

01:07:53

Speaks of it being a practical way the application of the biblical political approach so there are about five sections to that last chapter and the first is be passionate because I know that if you take the middle way then the party political will think you're insufficiently zealous about the culture war and the

01:08:17

Apolitical will probably think you're insufficiently zealous about the kingdom of heaven. So the be passionate

01:08:23

Passionate for both arms of God's government the church and civil authority and the second is be faithful remember that the church is spiritual and to fulfill your duties within the church as a minister as a pastor and then the third

01:08:39

And this is very important with regard to tax exempt status is to be objective

01:08:45

When you speak about politics You know, we have to be full like the

01:08:50

Lord Jesus of truth and grace Sometimes when you hear a pastor speak about politics, they're not very objective

01:08:58

They're already in the camp for one Party or the other or one candidate or the other and it doesn't reflect adequately the truth and then be responsible fulfill your civic duties as well as your spiritual duties and Be creative when you encourage your people to be involved for the sake of The issues that counts to Christians then look for ways in which you can work for good in the community without Compromising or transgressing the laws of the land.

01:09:32

So it's it deals with some of those issues bringing the biblical political approach down to Grassroots and how do we work it out?

01:09:40

And Reverend buzz Taylor has a question. Well, yeah, so the the book is primarily Related to politics as it relates to to preaching but not so much just You do touch it.

01:09:53

It sounds like you've touched a little bit in the last chapter Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm Simply as a

01:09:59

Christian as a Christian. What is my duty to be involved in politics? Do you actually talk because you know, you know, there's people who say well, you know, it doesn't belong in the pulpit

01:10:08

But you as an American have a responsibility before God to be involved politically, you know, you've heard people say that do you touch?

01:10:15

that in the third chapter there well, I think I touch on it throughout the book in sense of The very nature of Scripture.

01:10:24

Yes. Scripture is a rescue manual it tells us how we may be saved through faith in the

01:10:32

Lord Jesus Christ and repentance unto God and faith towards the Lord Jesus Christ and that's that's what we are to to preach and to teach and to proclaim and to witness to but the

01:10:44

Bible also has an awful lot to say about ethics and Above and beyond our own salvation.

01:10:51

The Bible is about the glory of God begins with God and it points to God and so There's plenty in the scriptures both the

01:11:00

Old Testament on the New Testament about the way of wisdom and the way of the fool is plenty of Christian ethics there and although we cannot

01:11:13

You know coerce people to come to faith in Lord Jesus Christ one of the roles that the

01:11:19

Christian Church can play is to retain the freedom in which the gospel may be proclaimed

01:11:26

I'm reminded of the words of Thomas Chalmers the great 19th century Scottish churchman that Where the gospel says 10 it may moralize 50 and It's in the moralizing of 50 that we retain the freedom to preach the gospel so that the 10 are saved

01:11:45

So we have we have great responsibility both in terms of Witnessing to the power of the gospel, but also retaining that freedom

01:11:56

Wherein the gospel can be proclaimed Tyler a mastic Beach, Long Island, New York says is it true that American evangelical

01:12:04

Christians tend to label? Nominal Christians which means

01:12:09

Christians in name only as Saved because they tend to vote conservative in elections a very good question because not only do

01:12:18

Many evangelical Christians label nominal Christians as saved because of the way they vote they very often will label

01:12:26

Roman Catholics and Mormons and others as as fellow Christians just because of the way they vote that's a very dangerous thing, isn't it?

01:12:35

Well, yes, I can't speak to I've not so much heard that about evangelical Christians, but I do mention in the book

01:12:41

Going back to the 2008 presidential election When John McCain gave his speech?

01:12:49

Receiving the nomination of the Republican Party candidates, you know, he made that he made the comments

01:12:54

We're all Americans were all the children of God right And I I feel passionately that we need to distinguish between cultural

01:13:05

Christianity and biblical Christianity and You see this as a hangover.

01:13:11

I've seen it in Britain as a hangover of the predominance of the Judeo -christian Mindset and I see it now also in America that we're secularism creeps in it

01:13:24

Challenges cultural Christians who no longer see the church as a benefit beneficial entity to to be attached

01:13:31

To and so they forsake the church and it gives us the opportunity as biblical

01:13:36

Christians to say this is what? Christianity truly is and to demonstrate that there is a difference between being a child of God and simply connected to the church

01:13:48

Yes, it used to be Not that long ago that Ecumenism between Those professing

01:13:59

Christianity and those of other religions Those who had an aberrant understanding of the gospel like Roman Catholics and people of other religions that used to be exclusively the the backyard of the liberals and today you have a

01:14:18

Growing number of conservatives now Having the same kind of ecumenical attitude, but for different reasons, in fact, you also have a

01:14:29

Conservativism who has adopted a social gospel. That's just a different kind of social gospel than the one that is

01:14:38

Notorious for the left if you could comment on that. Do you agree with me that there are many professedly conservative and professedly

01:14:47

Christian people who have a Social gospel just happens to be a more right -leaning one

01:14:55

Well, yes, I see that in pastoral life has witnessed it more broadly to that somebody can

01:15:08

Defend the gospel at least theoretically and yet really be in church because they see some

01:15:15

Attachment to the church as part of the conservative package and yet Evidently Christ is not

01:15:22

Lord of their lives and if he's not Lord of their lives then It raises the question as to whether they were really born again of God's Spirit in the first place

01:15:31

And it's it's sad to see that I'm thinking of one person in my mind who used to attend a church and very conservative politically but all of a sudden in midlife

01:15:43

Decided not not to attend church at all. He's as conservative politically and probably theologically as ever he was but doesn't darken the doors of a church and Apparently, um has no place of worship and that's

01:15:58

That's what we're up against. I think partly in America is this distinction between Cultural and biblical

01:16:05

Christianity RJ in White Plains, New York asks

01:16:10

There has been a division over even theologically like -minded Christians over whether or not it is a sin for a

01:16:18

Christian to abstain for voting this is Especially been made apparent during the last presidential election

01:16:26

Where you had brothers in Christ to agree on many things that are biblical and theological

01:16:32

But who radically opposed one another? Regarding the abstinence idea that a

01:16:39

Christian may rightly follow his conscience and not vote What is your opinion on this? Well, it is it's

01:16:47

God who defines what sin is and not us so we need to distinguish between something that's sinful and Something that's disagreeable and I can't see in Scripture that refusing to Refusing to vote would be a sin

01:17:04

Even though Christians may radically disagree on what was needed in the election to ensure a favorable vote as they perceived it

01:17:14

So I think we need to distinguish between sin and something that's disagreeable And Yeah, leave it there by the way,

01:17:25

I forgot to mention Tyler and RJ in White Plains You're both receiving a free copy of preaching and politics engagement without Compromise as soon as those arrive in the mail.

01:17:39

They have not yet arrived at our studio So we look forward to having those shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

01:17:49

CVBBS .com I guess the justification that some

01:17:55

Christians use To identify abstaining from a vote as sin is because of the ramifications they envision from that abstaining from voting they will say that that the person abstaining from voting is responsible in some level or another for the continuing of Infanticide through abortion and all kinds of other horrific

01:18:25

Crimes of humanity that exist in this world and they will say that things like a vote

01:18:33

Or should I say a Abstaining from a vote is that in reality a vote for the more evil of the candidates if you follow what

01:18:43

I mean Yes But I think that's where this is addressed in the final chapter of the book.

01:18:50

We need to be objective. I Let me let me say where I'm coming from every year the last nine ten years

01:18:58

I have walked with my dog every May or June on the pregnancy resource

01:19:05

Center life walk and I'm very passionate about pro -life issues So this isn't a reflection on my own stance on that.

01:19:14

I find it horrific that Since Roe vs. Wade basically the entirety of my home country and numbers -wise has been obliterated

01:19:24

Nearly what 60 million people and there's only 65 million people in the whole United Kingdom And I just think that this is this is a

01:19:32

Holocaust that we cannot afford to deny But in terms of being objective And it's hard to be objective with regard to that issue it granted

01:19:42

We have to allow for the fact that Christ is Lord of the conscience and At the time in which

01:19:48

I wrote this book it was around the time of the second Iraq war Some some felt very strongly against America going into that war and The estimates of civilians killed because of that war and so you're you're dealing with one ethical catastrophe

01:20:09

Versus another ethical catastrophe as it was perceived and so someone may

01:20:15

Be okay with the Democratic Party coming into power because they felt that less innocent lives would be lost through meddling in the

01:20:26

Middle East rightly or wrongly perceived and somebody who votes for the

01:20:31

Republican Party says well, I'm voting for the Republican Party because there's a better chance of of The unborn being saved.

01:20:39

So I think we need to understand where one another are coming from and realize that Christ is

01:20:46

Lord of our conscience and that we're going to give an account for the way in which we've Decided issues with regard to the information that we have.

01:20:54

How do you respond to something that I have heard? over the years from some of my brethren in Christ who are

01:21:05

Theologically conservative But have voted for the more liberal candidates.

01:21:11

This is especially true with some of my brothers and sisters who are black

01:21:16

Christians and the response has been well

01:21:21

The reason why I don't have a guilty conscience about voting for the more liberal of the candidates is because I agree with the more liberal candidates

01:21:32

Views of compassion towards the poor and the issue of abortion is

01:21:40

Not really one that's going to be settled by a president and Republican Presidents who have given lip service to the pro -life movement have done little to nothing to stop

01:21:51

The spread of abortion, so I'm not going to use that as an issue to direct my vote and I'm not going to use same -sex marriage and all these other things as Something to stop me from voting for the liberal candidate when

01:22:07

I believe They are more The the champion for the underdog and the the the impoverished and so on now

01:22:16

Could there be I mean, I know it's good. It's it's more difficult to determine when a vote is sinful and when it is

01:22:27

Honoring to God when you get into some of these explanations and defenses, but isn't there sometimes a point where?

01:22:36

somebody who is voting more because of a financial issue or financial benefit that they may

01:22:43

Think they are receiving by voting for this person. It might not even be a realistic hope or belief that their candidate will help them in that way, but but Isn't there a point when sometimes those things are in some fashion?

01:23:02

Selfish and putting other issues that are Much more clearly a on a higher rung of importance with God putting those things

01:23:14

To a diminished level of importance can something like that can be can it be identified as sin?

01:23:23

well In terms in terms of a way of preaching about politics

01:23:29

I think this is one of the things that a biblical political approach Can can accomplish over the course of time and that is as you're expounding the scriptures

01:23:40

To bring to light the things that really count so far as God is concerned so Yes, there is poverty in America And there's a great deal of it more than perhaps most of us know but the reality of the situation is that The average

01:24:02

American is probably a lot more wealthy than than in other countries of the world and so you have to then argue the case for moral issues ethical issues being of more importance to God than material issues when it is

01:24:19

You Know maybe not even out and out poverty, but but comparative poverty within America So I think this certainly

01:24:30

I'm not saying that because Christ is Lord of my conscience and I must decide that we are

01:24:38

Extremely Individualistic we have to discuss things but in a in a right manner within community and to talk about What matters most to God in terms of the priorities on any given electoral

01:24:53

You know tab Does that make sense? I just hope our listeners caught what you said because I think you really hit the nail on the head a few minutes ago

01:25:05

We all and I'm certainly not excluded from this have very strong opinions about Politics and which candidates should have been voted for because of moral reasons and all that but Those aren't the things that define sin

01:25:22

God's Word defined sin and I think we need to you know I just want to make sure that we don't gloss over that so quickly yet because you said that quickly

01:25:32

But it's like no really that was a main point that we have to be careful not to judge a brother because of Who we voted for anything like that because really the

01:25:43

Bible defines sin not not our strong feelings our

01:25:48

Sanctified feelings if you will or whatever else and then sometimes I'm sure you would agree.

01:25:54

I'm sure you both would agree buzz and my guest that there are sometimes areas where the responsibility to carry a biblical mandate through is

01:26:08

Wrongly placed in the hands of the government for instance the the whole idea of Compassion towards the poor is clearly a biblical mandate.

01:26:18

I mean in the epistle the epistle of James uses a lack of compassion for those in need and a lack of Providing the physical for the physical needs of those at least in the body of Christ That's great wickedness and a sign of a dead faith but having said that there are

01:26:42

Christians or those who profess to be And liberals who will use Christianity Even Michael Moore the ultra liberal socialists that we see very often in the media.

01:26:55

He will appeal to a Christian blueprint for a large government that is supposed to be providing for the needs of The poor and so on but that is not a biblical blueprint for providing for the for for the poor

01:27:11

And in fact, I've heard it very logically and convincingly laid out that Through a socialist system.

01:27:20

You're actually Involved this is actually involved this system not only in coveting thy neighbor's goods but actually stealing from my neighbor because you are

01:27:34

Picking and choosing a for lack of a better term a charity that you may agree with like giving to the poor or something of that nature and you're

01:27:45

Removing the funds from the pockets of Christians or and others as citizens in general who may disagree with that approach to providing for the poor you're

01:27:59

Making them Involuntarily forfeit money towards this

01:28:05

So the government can take care of it and obviously the government doesn't always take care of it the way you think that they're gonna

01:28:11

Take care of it. I don't I hope I didn't Mumble and fumble and bumble too much with that explanation, but I'm making sense there well, yes,

01:28:20

I think we have to acknowledge the fact that a Christian Have to have to choose the issues

01:28:29

He's going to vote on because it's it's a package and what the preachers job is to Objectively minister the

01:28:39

Word of God to preach the whole counsel of God as he's able to which bears upon many of the issues of today either directly or indirectly and Try and Impress upon the people

01:28:55

What the Bible says? With regards to this issue or that issue But also sometimes what the

01:29:01

Bible does not say and I'm not sure the Bible is there to express One opinion or another about the size of government what the

01:29:09

Bible does say is that God has two arms to his government one is the church one is civil authority and We need to acknowledge and respect both and give

01:29:20

God thanks for both and within that orbit Try and work out just through civil discussion

01:29:30

How best to vote and doing our homework, but it's I don't I don't pretend it's easy.

01:29:36

Yes, and in a lot of liberals Who know anything about the Bible will appeal to Acts 2 45?

01:29:44

And they began selling their property speaking of the early church They began selling their property and possessions and we're sharing them with all as anyone might have need.

01:29:53

They'll use that as a proof text that we should be

01:30:00

Imitating that in our government, but this was a voluntary Selling a property and giving it wasn't it wasn't an involuntary act where the word authority was taking from Their their pockets and bank accounts if you will.

01:30:17

Am I right? Yeah, that's right. And also in Acts 2 there from what I recalled the the verbs are of continuous tense

01:30:24

So it wasn't a sort of primitive form of communism where you hand over your property in a once -for -all act the state and let the

01:30:31

State dispense it but it was they kept giving as anyone had need so and that Seems to be confirmed by the

01:30:40

Apostle John in in In his letters in which when you see your brother has need give to him

01:30:47

You know, don't wait. Don't wait for him to ask but give to him when you see that he has need Oh, obviously if the early

01:30:53

Christians were kept giving it meant that they hadn't given everything over lock stock and barrel

01:31:00

Yeah, we don't know the point where Lydia no longer was the seller of purple and no longer had any purple

01:31:07

Yeah We're going to a break right now our final break and Reverend buzz is a question for you when we return

01:31:15

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

01:31:20

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for dr J are trumper.

01:31:25

Dr. Tim J are trumper when we return don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine

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01:36:21

Welcome back. This is chris arnes and this is the last 25 minutes or so of our program today

01:36:27

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:36:33

We're talking with dr. Tim Jr. Trumper and his theme is preaching and politics

01:36:40

Engagement without compromise before the break reverend buzz taylor was wanted to ask the question

01:36:46

Again, it's not a question. I'm just bantering on here with the conversation, but uh I think chris that the example you brought up is is a classic example of exactly what we're talking about because uh, if people are under the clear teaching of of the scriptures, uh where a passage is exposed, you know by the by the preaching of the word uh, the issue would never have come up about christian communism because we would have known that what's happening in x chapter 2 is

01:37:20

Peter has just in his pentecostal address pronounced judgment against jerusalem

01:37:26

And uh, if I can quote people, I normally don't quote you don't polish brass on a sinking ship jerusalem under the judgment of god was basically doomed and uh they were selling their their goods and laying at the apostles feet because They weren't going to hang around and of course later on as the persecution got worse

01:37:45

They did end up most of them leaving jerusalem so there was a very Real historical reason why they were doing what they were doing there but you see

01:37:55

To to try to teach a political view from the scriptures without looking at the full context

01:38:01

Which is what of course the pastor's job is to you know, set us right on the preaching of the word Uh, it would have eliminated that altogether

01:38:09

Any comments on what buzz said, uh, dr. Trumper uh Well, he he makes he makes a very valid point, um, and It's not one that i'd really thought of in the in the context there

01:38:21

I mean, of course it comes up in both the act two and again in act four with with barnabas and the selling of the land

01:38:28

But I think one of one of the challenges and i'm sure that um, there are those who would um present this to me in opposition to the biblical political point of view is um

01:38:39

Well, if you're expounding the scriptures consecutively um You know when you're going to get to some of these issues and once you've dealt with the issues um

01:38:49

What's going to happen to the person who wasn't there to hear that particular sermon? but I think in the overall picture of things we are blessed these days to upload our sermons and to um have libraries in our churches and Many other ways in which we can give the sermons that we preach legs

01:39:08

And refer people on to to what we've said on particular subjects after the sermon has actually been preached um

01:39:16

So I I can see I can see the issue um Uh, the challenge of um, actually keeping our people informed and and growing them

01:39:26

I got uh I received a question from kinross scotland from our listener murray and it made me chuckle because Obviously murray has been hearing me complain

01:39:38

About some of our listeners who send in their emails with very tiny fonts that I can't read because i'm going blind

01:39:44

And he sent me this email with a gigantic font and bold type

01:39:51

Uh and murray says A christian writer william mcdonald wrote politics is corrupt

01:39:59

It is a system of compromise decisions are commonly made on the basis of what is expedient rather than what is right

01:40:07

It adheres to human rather than divine principles. I'm just wondering with that in mind whether a born -again christian fully conscience

01:40:17

Fully conscious of their calling from god can really get involved in party politics

01:40:23

And even justify spending a large proportion of their time sitting in parliament with regard the difference mentioned earlier

01:40:34

With regard to the difference mentioned earlier between a preacher sharing views privately rather than from the pulpit

01:40:41

Would you feel that there? Ever comes a point as with bonhoeffer When the danger becomes so pressing that he finds it impossible to remain private with his views

01:40:52

I guess there's really two questions there for you uh, dr. Trumper Uh, one is i'm wondering with that in mind whether a born -again christian

01:41:01

Fully conscious of their calling from god can really get involved in party politics And then i'll go on to have you answer the second question

01:41:11

Well, certainly there's a there's a tension there because on the one hand it is god who's ordained civil authority

01:41:18

And We are called to be salt and light so I think in principle there's nothing wrong with Uh christian's been involved in politics

01:41:27

Uh, in fact, I think it's a very honorable um Calling to have um, but obviously in entering into it, especially in an era

01:41:37

Era in which the judaeo -christian worldview has Been challenged heavily by secularism that there are particular challenges with that and also given the pressure of media these days where they're always demanding responses and Calling you to make on -the -spot answers.

01:41:55

There are challenges there as well The very nature of politics is the art of the possible and I think the answer lies in the nature of the compromise that's called for and obviously

01:42:09

A christian being involved in politics if he is asked to compromise on an issue, that's really fundamental to the scriptures

01:42:17

Then he needs to be ready to resign And to step aside if need be But on the other hand if it is a matter of compromise with regard to different opinions

01:42:29

Then in the very process of compromise Uh, he may um be able to do a an awful lot of good.

01:42:35

I remember when um Lord mccartney lord mccay of clash fern entered into uh, was a mrs.

01:42:44

Thatcher's uh, Cabinet many years ago professor donald mccloud of uh, the free church of scotland college wrote an article appealing to christians to understand that politics is the art of the possible and almost to expect him

01:43:01

To compromise on certain issues. I don't think he was saying to compromise on fundamental issues

01:43:07

But to understand that in order to achieve some good You may not always be able

01:43:13

To do or say what uh what the christian church would want him to say. So it's it's a thorny issue.

01:43:19

But um I do believe that um God Has given us some some great politicians in history um who have really feared the name of the lord and done an awful lot of good, but um

01:43:35

I think the christian politician on the one hand needs to Do his job well, but also needs to hold very loosely ambition for high office

01:43:46

And uh, wouldn't you distinguish between Mm the proper and acceptable role of the average christian the average member of the congregation

01:43:59

Uh who holds no office higher than a deacon uh and the the pastor

01:44:07

Being openly actively publicly politically involved and running for office in particular whereas the pastor has

01:44:15

Is supposed to have so many duties that he oversees and so many people that he oversees and the souls of who

01:44:23

He is supposed to be overseeing that to be involved in especially a political campaign running for office

01:44:30

Would be an improper diluting of of his time There are christians who vehemently disagree with each other on this

01:44:40

And I was wondering what your thoughts were Well, I you know in a in an ordinary ordinary situation,

01:44:47

I would think that's true, I mean a minister has his calling and he's a minister of word and sacrament and Is to give himself to the study of the scriptures and to prayer

01:44:58

And to shepherd the flocks that's been given to him. And if he does that diligently enough, he's going to find that he is

01:45:05

He has more than ample Ample things to fill his time. I mean there are extraordinary

01:45:11

Situations, I mean take the late Ian Paisley He was obviously

01:45:18

Minister of his church martyrs memorial free presbyterian church in belfast. He was a member of the british parliament

01:45:23

He was uh different times a member of stormont member of the european parliament And uh,

01:45:29

I don't know how he pulled that all off. I mean, he was a great creature Um, some some have said that he would have been uh far more effective

01:45:38

Uh in preaching the gospel there in ireland had he not got involved in politics uh, I don't want to speak to his his conscience, but uh, um

01:45:49

Um You know, I ponder I ponder about about his situation and other situations Yeah, or reverend buzz taylor my co -host remembers well hearing ian paisley preach because he is a graduate of bob jones university

01:46:01

And knows that ian paisley was one of the very very few calvinists, uh ever permitted to speak there at Bju and I can attest to the fact that if he preached for an hour and a half and stopped he'd say well

01:46:15

Where's the rest of it? Yeah, well, um,

01:46:20

I've had a long -standing interest in the in the paisley family my father Had preached at martyrs memorial and uh,

01:46:28

I knew him and uh Um, so it's it's something that um I've pondered over the years, huh?

01:46:34

yeah, i've developed friendships with a number of people in the free presbyterian church of ulster and free presbyterian church of north america and typically my experience, uh is that they are

01:46:47

Extraordinary preachers when I when I hear them preach uh, I might have some differences of opinion over the exclusivicity of Uh exclusivity

01:46:57

I should say of uh the king james version but uh and some other things but I uh,

01:47:04

I really enjoy My fellowship with these brethren and enjoy and blessed by them preaching for the most part

01:47:11

Uh, oh the uh, the last part of murray's question uh

01:47:18

With regard to the difference mentioned earlier between a preacher sharing views privately rather than from the pulpit.

01:47:23

Would you feel that? There ever comes a point as with bonhoeffer when the danger becomes so pressing that he finds it impossible to remain private with his views

01:47:33

I can I can imagine a situation. Um, you know where you're faced with great tyranny as he was

01:47:41

Where the party the national socialist party in that regard is so Much the personification of evil that it becomes a duty to speak out

01:47:53

The question with bonhoeffer is whether he was indeed a martyr um, you know, eric metaxas has subtitled his book, uh

01:48:02

Describing him as a martyr, but I think that is that is an open question The question there was not so much about whether he should have spoken out publicly or whether he should have conspired to um, or being involved with the conspiracy privately um

01:48:17

With a view to the death of hitler and it's interesting that I think there were 15 attempts made on hitler's life and in the end, um

01:48:26

Um, it was he who took his own life. It was almost as if um god prevented

01:48:31

Anybody else from taking his life? And he was brought to to take his own life And of course those are issues, uh

01:48:41

That could fill an entire month worth of broadcasting the uh

01:48:47

At least the issues on whether a christian should ever be be a part of Plots like that But uh, you are talking about one of the most hideous and satanic leaders that ever

01:49:00

Rose up to power on the globe Meaning adolf hitler, of course Yes, thank you

01:49:08

Yeah, and I don't want to um You know here I am in the in the safety of uh of a home here in america um, just not

01:49:17

Involved in the third reich and it's very easy to give theoretical answers and I I don't want to come across as judgmental with regard to But it's it is a question and um,

01:49:28

I I pray that we're never ever faced with them We have uh bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who wants to know

01:49:40

Why is it that so many of our brothers in christ? In the uk who agree with us on many areas of doctrine?

01:49:49

are so staunchly opposed to the american Fight for freedom of bearing arms.

01:49:57

They seem to view us as gun hung gun hungry crazed individuals when tyranny typically has

01:50:07

Has risen on this planet when those in governing power have removed all weaponry

01:50:16

From the citizens leaving the populace defenseless I don't understand why our brethren in christ in the uk would be such would hold such opposition to our

01:50:27

Cherishing this right that we have here in america Well, I would be

01:50:34

I would be one of them Um coming coming for the united kingdom, uh,

01:50:40

I would I would say several things one is that um america because of its uh

01:50:46

Geographical position with the pacific ocean on one side and the atlantic on the other is very isolated.

01:50:53

I mean Uh america is a huge country And you have an awful lot of awful lot of space

01:50:59

And indeed the uh whole population of the united kingdom could fit in a quarter of the size does fit in the quarter of the size of texas, so one of the issues is uh, american isolationism, which is

01:51:13

No fault of of the american people that this is where we are Also, when you've got a country as sizable as america, you can live in different parts and really have

01:51:23

Your viewpoint challenged although of course the media is changing that so what i'm saying is that we are we are um

01:51:32

Creatures of our own background and of our own history and of course, uh, You know when you think of american history you think of the west being one you think of um

01:51:43

People living in isolated places where they needed their gun to protect themselves, etc, etc

01:51:49

Um when you grow up in britain Uh, you don't see the police carrying arms

01:51:55

Um, you don't know anybody Or at least nobody's speaking about owning guns um

01:52:01

It's it's just an entirely different Environment in the whole course of my life, which includes

01:52:08

The 17 years i've lived in america. I've only ever heard of three massacres in the united kingdom and so it's very difficult for us to understand

01:52:20

Why americans? need So many weapons and the power of the weapons that they have and also to to To really weigh the amount of massacres and the amount of people killed through um

01:52:36

Through arms here in the united states so that when people come to me and say May never have left the country.

01:52:43

Aren't you afraid about going to europe? Aren't you afraid about going to africa? Aren't you afraid about going to the middle east and I said to them

01:52:51

Aren't you afraid of going to chicago? You know, they've had what's over 700 people killed last last year

01:52:58

And I think part of the issue is for the british at least thinking through it theologically

01:53:04

Is that one? Uh, the second amendment of the constitution Was what 240 years ago?

01:53:12

it predated the Establishment of the police force which came into being in the united kingdom, uh, the bobbies in the 1830s um and uh, we we just struggle to see

01:53:28

How there can be such support? for um a viewpoint which seems to be predicated

01:53:35

On an old testament ethic namely an eye for an eye and a tough for a tough

01:53:41

Rather than a new testament ethic turn the cheek and a wonderful example of that Is in the um, the ministry of jim elliott and his colleagues who when they went to the indians in ecuador

01:53:55

Uh, they said well, we're not going to take weapons because if we kill anybody they'll go to hell if we die

01:54:01

We'll go to heaven And I think it's one of those areas and we all have cultural blind spots if you go to britain

01:54:07

We've got them and you come to america the americans have them and I really do feel that The right to bear arms is is a significant blind spot in the american people yes, of course, you will have proponents of very strong advocates of the second amendment that will

01:54:24

Talk about the fact that statistically appears uh irrefutable evidence that those areas in the united states where Gun laws are most lax are the safest places to live

01:54:38

And where you have a lot of gun control And restrictions on ownership you have a lot of illegal use of Of firearms being used to to harm the citizens but My my response to that is well

01:54:53

The they're not dealing with the under underlying issue um, and that is

01:55:00

The excise from america of arms amongst the people, you know It's clear in the in the second amendment of the constitution that they're talking about a militia and it's also in the articles of confederation

01:55:11

And so people say well, we cannot get rid of in america 300 million weapons

01:55:16

I say, okay, if that is if that is really the case Then we need to change um the foreign policy because if we cannot get rid of Weapons in america, then we shouldn't be trying to get rid of weapons in iraq or afghanistan

01:55:32

Or or wherever else which we're spending trillions of dollars trying to do that And saying at the same time we can't get rid of weapons in the united states and it doesn't seem

01:55:44

To me to add up Well, perhaps we could have one day you uh on the program debate

01:55:49

To debate dr. Ron gleason. I don't know if you're familiar with dr. Gleason He's a presbyterian minister who's my name by name.

01:55:55

He's written a book on uh, the second amendment Perhaps we could have you to have a friendly brotherly debate

01:56:03

Is But if you if you could if you could actually uh Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before the program is over now

01:56:14

Well, um Well, the word of god is uh Is sufficient the word of god is uh preeminent and we're to preach the word of god and that's

01:56:26

We're to preach the whole council of god and that applies to the political realm Also to the spiritual realm and I would say if I was to give one practical piece of advice to To the listeners it is uh to get out and to travel as c .s

01:56:41

lewis once said I believe this is in fernseed and elephants The man who's traveled is not ignorant of the myths of his native village and The more we travel more exposed to other cultures other ways of doing things it broadens our horizons about political disputes domestically

01:57:02

Well, uh, dr trumper, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your Contact information.

01:57:09

I know that your church website is seventh ref dot org that's the number 7th ref for reformed dot org

01:57:21

And you also have an online ministry center at from his fullness dot com

01:57:28

That's from his fullness dot com Any other contact information you care to share? well, there's a facebook page also from his fullness and uh, uh be glad to uh connect with uh any of the listeners and uh

01:57:41

Thank you so much for for the opportunity to talk this afternoon Oh, thank you, uh, brother and I look forward to having you back on the program.

01:57:48

It's always a joy And uh look forward to getting those books so that we can share them with our listeners and uh want to remind our listeners, please keep iron sharpens iron in prayer and Please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:58:03

and click on support Which is the third option at the top of the page to get the address where you can mail checks

01:58:11

Made payable to iron sharpens iron radio Or you can also make them payable to cruciform

01:58:17

Media c r u c i ephesan frank o r m as in media media cruciform media

01:58:25

And we will be delighted and very grateful to receive any support you care to send No matter how large or small and of course we covet your prayers

01:58:36

That you will please pray That the lord blesses iron sharpens iron radio and enables us to keep

01:58:43

On the air if it be according to his will And uh tomorrow, uh, many of you may be interested to know that our guest is larry taunton

01:58:53

And he is going to be discussing his book the faith of christopher hitchens Uh, he developed a fairly close friendship with the notorious atheist uh straight up through uh his death which is even more tragic a death because From what we know he went to his grave and entered into eternity as being a hater of god and uh, but we may learn a lot on how to have exchanges and interactions with our atheist friends as a result of larry taunton's own friendship with The atheist christopher hitchens, so we hope that you tune in tomorrow

01:59:33

And send in your questions. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ

01:59:39

Is a far greater savior Than you are a sinner We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio

01:59:49

And it's been great having you back in studio reverend buzz taylor as well Well, god bless you, and uh, we will uh hear from you tomorrow.