February 27, 2017 Show with Tim J. R. Trumper on “Preaching & Politics: Engagement Without Compromise”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of February

2017 and in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor.

Great to see you buzz.

Once again, and we are going to be interviewing today a guest who is returning to

iron sharpens iron dr. Tim Jr. Trumper senior minister of

Seventh Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan with an online ministry center at

from his fullness comm and he is going to be discussing preaching and

politics.

Engagement without compromise.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Tim Jr. Trumper.

And for those of our listeners who have just discovered you for the first time dr. Trumper.

Before coming to accept the call to the ministry in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Where were you born and raised?

Well, I was a southwest corner a beautiful

county called Pembrokeshire and I was converted at the age of 15 and

After that studied politics at the University of Wales and then Sensed a

call to the ministry towards the end of that undergraduate degree and Made my way then

to Edinburgh to train for the ministry at what's now called Edinburgh Theological Seminary.

Then it was called the Free Church of Scotland College.

So that's a bit about my background and and my interest in both theology and

politics.

Now, I can't remember off the top of my head, but are.

You familiar with my former pastor who just left the States and returned

to the UK David Campbell.

Yes, I've met David a number of times and so thankful for him and I've

preached at his former church in Darlington, England and have met up with him also in Carlisle, but

Interested to learn that he's gone back to the United Kingdom.

Yes.

He is now pastoring in northern England and I hope to.

Have him back as a guest in the program this time for the first time on the phone

from overseas, but seventh Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

A number of Our reformed listeners who have been Calvinists

for Decades may recall a dr. John R DeWitt who

was pastor at Seventh Reformed Church for quite a number of years.

Seventh Reformed Church used to be at one time as you know in the RCA denomination the Reformed

Church of America or in America.

And That denomination, although there are godly men faithful to the scriptures still

in that denomination it has by and large been overcome by Liberalism and the

power of positive thinking hasn't it and in Seventh Reformed Church is no longer a part of that denomination.

No, they parted ways in 1995 and that was during dr. DeWitt's tenure as

senior minister from 1993 to 2000.

I can't really speak to the Reformed Church in America today.

But like you say we do believe in the communion of the Saints and the thankful for the Lord's faithful

people wherever they are.

And it's seventh Reformed Church an independent reformed congregation.

Yes, it has been these last 21 years and Because of the radio broadcast we

broadcast twice on the Lord's Day 11 o 'clock in the morning 7 o 'clock in the evening

and have attracted over the years people from varying different denominational backgrounds.

It's it's been a difficult issue to settle the matter of Denominational

affiliation.

So right now the church is committed to doing its work faithfully as an independent

congregation but still linked to the wider church and Seventh is

currently a member of the World Reformed Fellowship and in that way we've tried to

Demonstrate that our independency is not an isolationism, but simply

best for the church right now.

I'm gonna give our email address right off the top of the bat here.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris

a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and please give us your

First name your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA and If you prefer to remain anonymous for one reason

or another perhaps you disagree with your own pastor on the topic.

We are discussing.

You may feel free to remain anonymous and we will grant that request.

But otherwise, please give us Your first name city and state and country of residence

what we are discussing today preaching and politics.

Engagement without compromise.

Tell us about what was the catalyst behind writing this book?

Well, I think there were two things first of all my own personal personal journey.

Um, I was mentioned earlier.

I studied for a politics degree at the University of Wales between 1985 and

1988 and Throughout that time there. I pondered what the Lord was

Calling me to and came to the conclusion that he was calling me to pastoral ministry.

But I never lost Interest in politics.

I wouldn't say that.

I'm a political geek or political guru.

I wouldn't say that at all but I do retain an interest and then in terms of

my vocation moving in 1999 from the United Kingdom to the United States you

can't help but notice various differences as well as the similarities and that intrigued me and

I thought.

Especially in the run -up to the 2008 presidential election to think through and to pray through what

were my own Responsibilities as a pastor and as preacher and somebody who

seeks to seek think theologically.

What is my Responsibility in terms of pulpit ministry to to the political season as it

was then.

I think Some of what I wrote in the book that was published in 2009 has come to

pass especially in terms of the culture war and the trajectory of

President Obama's Tenure as president, but the the principles are abiding

even though we're under a new president now.

Let me read a commendation for your book.

In this book. Dr. Trumper has done a superb job of Identifying the crucial questions that a

preacher must consider with respect to the relationship between preaching and the political

process.

Not only that Dr. Trumper has provided clear scriptural guidance to all Christians

preachers and non -prick preachers alike Who genuinely desire to honor their Lord by living according

to the unchanging Word of God in the rapidly changing world That we now inhabit

as with any good sermon.

Dr. Trumper provides concrete examples Which bring his analysis to bear with biblical

force both on those with Republican leanings and those with Democratic leanings.

This is an outstanding book and that was Samuel T Logan jr. International director

of the World Reformed Fellowship quite a powerful

Commendation.

We already have a listener in Slovenia Who has a question Joe and Slovenia's asks,

please?

Ask dr. Trumper to address the question of whether or not a pastor should refrain from speaking from the

pulpit on topics touching on politics in order to not Endanger the

church's tax -exempt status.

Thank you for serving the church in such a powerful way.

Thank you Joe in Slovenia and wonderful question well that question was

really at the heart of my own research into the subject and I

began with the title something like Politics on the pulpit, but I

realized that the book was not so much about politics as it was about preaching and

So I looked at the polarization in America.

And of course in America, you have to make a political decision to know where to get your

news You if you're a left -wing you go to certain Outlets and if you're a right -wing you

go to certain outlets.

And so that was a struggle for me and I thought in that Polarization what what do I do.

And then I looked at the Polarization with regard to the responses to that problem, and I saw that

it were basically polar opposite views one of the

apolitical view in which we basically stick to the gospel narrowly defined and

to issues of holiness of life.

That's the apolitical point of view.

And then I saw that there was the party political point of view and that preachers were Jumping at the bits really

to say what they really thought about party politics from the pulpit but we're in danger

of Running up against the tax exempt Code

and the IRS expectations with regard to that.

So I came then down on this via media position of being biblically political and I

felt that we need to expound the scriptures and To do so in

their The full array of issues and

to teach the people not only what a given passage says But also how to read the Bible for

ourselves so that when the political season comes around We don't have to rush

in some sort of panic to To guide our people as to how they are to vote

nor are we to transgress their consciences?

But rather by weakly expounding the scriptures and Applying them to the culture in

which we live.

The people themselves would would be able to draw the dots as to what scripture might think on this issue or that

issue guidelines that it gives.

So Yeah.

Well, it's interesting.

Well, it's interesting.

You said that if you're Right -leaning you usually go to certain media

outlets and if you're left -leaning you you go to others and obviously the Choices are much more abundant if you're

left -leaning because the the mainstream media is

Obviously painfully and palpably obviously leaning to the left.

For instance, I I am convinced that a Television news

anchorman on a station that might Describe itself as being neutral

and they're just to deliver the news as it is Given them.

I am sure that most of those stations which are in reality left -leaning Would fire

an anchor man or woman if they were to report the news of a famous

male celebrity marrying quote -quote another man.

If they did not deliver that news with a beaming smile on their face I would guarantee you

that they would be terminated probably that night or that day.

Every time you hear the news of such horrifying events You typically will see

an ear to ear smile and even sometimes a word of congratulations to the

happy happily married couple.

Whereas.

We who are conservative it's not so easy because even if you were to go let's say to Fox News, which is

Become a mainstay for conservatives.

There are different Opinions expressed on Fox News, which may be a healthy sign,

but I don't always agree which with that which is Painted as a

conservative view.

Because very often I think that my views are in reality more conservative than many who claim to be

conservative.

So it's not as it's not always an easy task for a conservative to find a media outlet when it comes to the

news and so on.

And Of course, oh by the way, Joe in Slovenia. You are getting a free copy of the

book.

We are discussing preaching and politics engagement without compromise by dr. Tim jr. Trumper.

Thank you very much for providing us with an American address where we will send that book to your

daughter in, Georgia.

And that will be a compliments of our guest Dr. Tim jr. Trumper and

also compliments of the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley

BBS for Bible book service comm CV BBS comm and they mail out all of our winners

their free Bibles books and DVDs on occasion and CDs and other things.

And by the way those of you who have been waiting patiently for over a month for some of your

book Bibles and books that you have won because of a delay that occurred largely due to my.

Traveling.

Recently and having things unfortunately slipped through the cracks Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

is working Diligently to make sure that most of those things are shipped out this week.

So you should finally God willing Receive those things that you've been waiting for in a matter of days and I

apologize for the delay on that.

We thank you so much for being patient with us and a few of you have been contacting me wondering.

Where's my Bible?

Where's my book, but I appreciate your patience with me.

One thing I'm sorry.

Dr. Trump.

Are we gonna say something?

Any others listening that I've come across a very good study by the

Pew Forum on this whole notion of taxes and status and I can't go into

all the Qualifications the details.

It's a very lengthy document probably 22 pages with examples.

It was published I believe in 2012 but if you look that up online You'll find all

the advice you need with regard to what? Ministers can do and

What's they what they cannot do.

In churches likewise and religious organizations, it's very helpful indeed.

And a reverend buzzed.

Yeah, well, you know.

Just.

My first impression I remember over the years hearing so many times that what you never discuss

in public is Politics and religion and here we are today

Talking about both of them and yet there is nothing that affects our lives more than

politics and Religion, but of course from the religious side from the Christian perspective.

You know, I I know Spurgeon made the comment, you know.

He wouldn't stoop to be a king since he's a preacher and you know, all these things.

I'm aware of all this but yet we are so affected by politics.

So what is your view towards our involvement with politics as a Christian and are discussing

and the role of a church?

If you will if there is such a role that exists.

Well That's a very open question.

You know, it also obviously impinges upon the debate over two kingdoms theology and

the difference between Those who would argue for two kingdoms and those who would argue for the

transformational view of the more Kaiperian view.

In fact, we had a debate we had debate on this radio program between the two opposing views about a year ago.

You know, I think we've mentioned this last time Chris there's so many of our debates in our hurdles

Perhaps more heat than light and I've tried to Try to weigh Weigh these

issues and of course when I wrote the book preaching and politics that debate was just

coming to the fore.

So I haven't really addressed that specifically in there, but I do notice that David Van Drunen from

Westminster Seminary California has has a footnote in one of his books describing

me as a transformationalist, but I think the difference in that debate

we define the kingdom and That's one of the aspects which

I've not seen really Teased out in the debate.

So when you look at the scriptures, you've got the universal kingdom of God God's Sovereign reign

over all things.

I think that's what Kuiper is referring to when he speaks about there's not a square inch

Where Jesus does not say this is mine and then you've got the two kingdom view which is more

related it seems to me to the Intermediatorial kingdom of the Lord Jesus which spreads

through the conversion of people and the reign of Jesus Christ over the heart.

So I think that speaking past each other both both are true and I think When

I go back now and look at that book, I think I try to capture both aspects on the one hand

salt and light in society.

We cannot change people's hearts.

But we can promote laws which restrain evil

responsibility to stand up against injustice because The very foundation of God's

throne is justice but on the other hand of the specifically the church were to

preach the gospel as preachers were to expound the scriptures and Help people

think Christianly and help them act Christianly during the week and so I don't think it's an either -or I

think it's a it's a both -on and I don't think

the pursuit of the transformation of society should Subvert the

primacy of the preaching of the gospel.

But on the other hand the preaching of the gospel should encourage us to be in

Interested in social righteousness as well as personal righteousness.

We've all heard.

Preachers on the radio that you know, I have Felt sorry for their congregations because

that all they get for the most part is a steady diet of.

Politics.

I mean when we come into worship, but this is this is what the heart of the book worship is about God.

Not not first and foremost about me.

And it's not even for first and foremost about our society or the United States.

The United Kingdom.

It's about Coming aside to hear from God about his glory and his greatness.

And everything flows flows from there.

And I I would want us in this this discussion about theology or politics

to To keep God's glory to the fore.

We have an anonymous listener from rim Riverhead, New York who wants to know why is

it that it seems the? african -american churches freely endorse

political candidates every time an election cycle Arises and they do so with

impunity.

There is never any backlash and the the candidates openly speak

from their pulpits without fear of any kind of penalty or persecution.

Why I can't.

I can't speak for the african -american community.

But I can say from reading the document produced by the Pew Forum that it's very complicated

issue and it may well be that Whereas the African community

african -american community stretches the limits Other

communities underplay them.

I do read in the document produced by the Pew Forum that in order

for there to be follow -up on On this issue then there needs to be documented

evidence of a minister or a church going beyond the bounds of what of what is permitted.

I may well be that that has not occurred because the evidence has not been there

or because The IRS as is stated in this document doesn't follow up

Unless there's documented evidence in the history of violation of the principle.

Yes, and there may be.

That we don't know.

There may be conservatives being invited to speak there as well.

And only the liberals are accepting the invitations.

We don't know what's going on there.

Right, and I have even heard from conservative Theologically

conservative and politically conservative black Christians and pastors that I know who

are very concerned that the focus of much of

African American Christian Christianity if you could put a label on something like that

or the black church at large is that it has become a social gospel by

and large more focused on political activism than on the gospel, but they

have also said as a way of explanation that the history of the black church

because they were in reality in Not the not -so -distant past.

I mean it wasn't that long ago when there were Jim Crow laws.

That the church was a safe haven for blacks to do more than

just gather for worship the church buildings were used for all kinds of public

activism and issues where the community could join together in

solidarity on certain matters that went beyond the pale of

religious activity, so that's one of the reasons why we have that according to

what I have heard and.

But thank you very much anonymous Listener, and if you give me your full name and mailing address and I will not

obviously disclose it on the air.

You will also receive a free copy of the book preaching and politics engagement without compromise

by our guest.

Dr Tim jr. Trumper and.

And we're gonna go to a break right now if you'd like to join Them those folks who have already asked

questions if you'd like to join them with a question of your own our email

address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of

the USA and we look forward to hearing from you Very soon with your questions.

We already do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

And we will get to your questions as soon as we can, but don't go away.

We will be right back.

God willing after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsett.

If you just tuned us in our guest today is dr Tim jr. Trump er.

We are discussing his book preaching and politics engagement without compromise.

In studio with me is the Reverend buzz Taylor who is my co -host today and We look

forward to hearing from you and your questions at Chris Arnsett at gmail .com.

Chris Arnsett at gmail .com and Arnie and Perry County wants to know dr Trump or

how to respond to his friends who say that the pulpit is no place for

preaching on abortion and Homosexuality.

Those are political issues.

That's should stay out of the church.

Well, that's a good question, too.

I noticed that there are some issues in the American political scene which are deemed to be party political.

But from a Christian standpoint.

Would not be so.

But what I'm saying in the book is that exposition consecutive exposition is the key

really to dealing with the teaching of Scripture and the ethics of Scripture.

Holistic sense.

And I think one of the strengths of Consecutive exposition is that you

deal with Issues as they come up in the text and when you do that, then you're not deemed to be riding

a hobby horse.

You're not deemed to be getting at somebody in the congregation.

You're simply dealing with the text that's before you on any given Sunday.

And if people hang around long enough that they can see that and respect that.

And so I would say to you to your friend.

Well This is the scripture Paul says to Timothy all scripture is profitable and

we deal in our church with Issues if you're dealing with them

sermon on the sixth commandment, you shall not kill.

Then that would be an unnatural application and you can think of a whole array of texts

or Sermon series in which that might be be the case.

And so For the Christian, it's the scripture that sets the agenda not the political scene

in any given Chapter of American life or place of American life and we need to hold

hold that to be the case and we lose respect.

I think when we allow the political scene and the political agenda to determine

Ultimately what what we preach and what we what we say.

Yeah, in fact, I think a preacher a pastor Would be in serious sin

if he did not warn his congregation about Sins that are

prevalent in this country and in this world that are not only killing people physically

But sending them to hell For eternity.

I mean in fact those two issues do both you have abortion that is

obviously murdering children and So the blood of those murdered children

are on the hands of the unrepentant people involved in those murders and

You also so you have both the eternal damnation issue and the physical

Death issue involved in those physical murder issue and even homosexuality.

First of all the Apostle Paul Even has a serious

warning not only to those who practice homosexual sin, but those who give them hearty

approval and So we cannot hide behind a

fence of neutrality of alleged neutrality or something and this sin of

homosexuality Is not only sending people to hell for eternity But it's also

killing people not only through AIDS.

But it's amazing I can remember years ago when I arranged a debate with dr James R. White of Alpha Omega

Ministries was a reformed Baptist apologist and he debated a liberal Barry Lynn

who is an ordained United Church of Christ minister and also a former ACLU

attorney it came up in that debate that the the average

Lifespan of a male homosexual is decades Shorter than a heterosexual

even when you remove AIDS from the equation.

There there is a Reason that I don't even know if science can put a finger on why homosexual men

are dying.

Even when you remove AIDS and suicide even when you remove those two things out of the equation,

so you It would be an injustice.

It would be a Demonstration of a lack of compassion for the souls of men.

Just because of the fear of men if they were to remain silent about these issues.

Wouldn't they wouldn't they be indeed in sin if they they remain perpetually silent about these very vital areas.

What was men remain silent or was it Lord

Acton, but I would also says Edmund Burke yeah, I would also say to your

to your callers friend that Our responsibility is to minister to those in the church

and with regard to the abortion issue.

It's it's unbelievable to to my mind that 43 % of the abortions.

Are.

Performed on on Women or couple pressing members of the

Christian Church.

However, you define the church.

I think it's 23 %.

And 20 Protestant and Roman Catholic, so we have a

responsibility to begin by teaching the church why Abortions is

wrong, but also with regard to

me coming up against up in the church.

Coming out as homosexuals what's happening in society?

We have a job and a responsibility to educate according to the scriptures those who are before us.

Well, thank you Arnie.

You are also receiving a free copy of the book preaching and politics engagement

without compromise if you can.

Give us your full mailing address Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We'll get that out to you ASAP.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm

and we thank you for contributing to today's show with your question.

If you could even explain a little bit more of what you mean by engagement without compromise.

Well, I'm saying that I think it's irresponsible for the apolitical

within the formal society and to

be Courageous out of sharing of those who need to share what he's saying.

And.

So I'm saying we need to engage The issues of politics to the degree that the scriptures

do and according to the principles of scripture and yet to do it without becoming party

political, although I admit in the book that the issue of abortion in particular and The

secularist agenda of the Democratic Party Makes it a lot more difficult To

come across as non -partisan than it would do.

Otherwise, so I thoroughly Believe that we ought to be speaking to the

issues of the day the issues that our people are facing during the week but to do it on the

basis of scripture and not on the basis of the agenda of the media or

the philosophies that are bounding.

During our time.

Yes, and unfortunately the Republican Party is no bastion of pro -life Sentiment either

because you have a lot of cowardice in regard to that issue and you also have pro -choice

elected officials who are Republican.

I mean in New York, I think every single Republican Candidate

that has been elected in New York at least in the governor in

Mayor's office for the last several decades.

Like governor George Pataki was pro -abortion Mayor Giuliani was pro -abortion.

In fact, I can remember Governor Pataki having some kind of a fundraising dinner

years ago when he was still in office, I believe.

Where he was raising funds for pro -choice Republicans.

It was that was the main focus of the fundraiser.

So, you know.

This is a sad thing and even those who claim to be pro -choice are very often very timid very

cowardly.

That is not a major emphasis in their campaigns typically.

They don't want to go too far into pushing away people and bringing upon

themselves the wrath of liberals and In fact, I once I once

told a friend of mine dr. Efflegard Smith Years ago back in the 90s when he wrote a

book on homosexuality called Sodom's second coming I told him

that the the only Truly homophobic people I've ever

met are politicians because they are so terrified of homosexuals That they will typically seek to

appease them in any way possible.

But.

Anyway, it is a very sad situation.

That we are saying about the issue of abortion is also true with regard to

the lock house lock cabin, yes.

So it's and people people need to need to understand that.

So when I talk about engagement without Compromise, I'm not talking about engagement without controversy.

I've learned trying to apply the principles of the book that you can simply expound the scriptures and

Apply it to the political scene as you see it leaving the chips before where they may.

And.

Be deemed to be party political because you are not supporting the party of choice as much as you should do.

But I firmly believe that it's the prophetic element of the preaching of the word that

we are to declare the word and to apply it without favor and To let God do the work

on top of that.

One thing that I'd like to ask you about on the opposite end of the spectrum of this Is

that I I have felt very uncomfortable with some of my

Friends in the pastoral ministry who are Almost in

lockstep with me theologically but who Will aggressively

and publicly support candidates by name and so

on.

For instance some who did that with Donald Trump when he was running for the office of

president and.

And I would tell these folks that I felt very uncomfortable with a

pastor by name Pushing the candidacy of a specific

individual because when you are behind that sacred desk And the people who

are listening to you expect you to be talking about The inerrant scriptures

things about which there is no debate things that are

Objectively true things that involve eternal life.

And then when you start mixing in with the same passion and Enthusiasm things that could

turn out eventually to backfire on you even if it was somebody who was

Has a far less dubious reputation as Donald Trump has had.

You could have somebody who you know turns out to be involved in such

Horrible scandals.

Later on they could be revealed or exposed as being adulterers.

Homosexuals.

Or any host of a number of scandalous activities and.

It really taints, I believe.

The gospel that you have been preaching before and after this person was elected.

Am I off base or going overboard here?

No, well to go back to the Pew Forum and the document that they produced and they are not producing it to push any

any Line or other other than to simply understand the IRS expectations

I think naming a candidate with a clear sense of preference for that

candidate Would station is I think

it must be in a way unrelated

that behind the pulpit then that would be

expectation as I understand it the whole list of

qualifications are found in that document and It's well worth well worth reviewing because I

think not only do we Bring the gospel and the Word of God into disrepute.

Disrepute in the eyes of our people when we do that.

We bring the gospel and the Word of God into disrepute amongst those in the community whom we're trying to serve and

We are narrowing down the prospects of the success of the gospel in the community because we are meant to serve all the

community not simply One sector of the community, so I feel very passionate for

instance in our own church that When we try as we are to reach out

to a cross -cultural community.

That they do not come into our church and think that we are some sort of front for one party or

another.

But that their salvation and the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is front and center in our

in our aspiration.

But did you have some.

Well, I'm just wondering a little bit more about the content of your book.

Could you tell us a little bit more about some of the subjects that you like?

What are your chapter headings and so forth?

Oh, yeah, sure.

Well in the book The first chapter has to do with What?

Well the method of what I call the biblical Political approach so it lays out

what the apolitical approach is like what the party political approach is like and then

advocates for the Biblical political approach and calls it the middle way and then

in the second chapter It really lays out the reason supporting The middle

way and I think it gives about seven seven reasons as to why we ought to pursue the biblical political

approach As opposed to the apolitical or party political approach.

And then the third chapter It really gives a practical advice as to how to how to operate with

that approach.

Why don't you give us those seven reasons?

Well, okay.

It's seven years since I wrote the book Back to the book, but

the first and for the biblical political approach the safeguarding of the sanctity of divine worship

the second the maintaining of a high view of preaching the third

a few pages here the maximization of the biblical worldview and then the

fourth Game flicking pages bear with me a minute.

The.

Ensuring of certain Emphasis such as the Lordship

of Christ over the conscience the sovereignty of God basically and how elections turn out on

the preeminence of the kingdom of heaven the first

section of congregational unity the The improvement

of our Christian witness and the seventh would be One

moment The upholding of Christian ethics.

It reasons out why?

When you think of the spirituality of the church, and I think on that point the

proponents of two -kingdom Theology are spot -on.

We need to protect that and preserve that and make sure worship is in fact worship.

And all of that was in one chapter.

Yeah Wow.

It sounds like it that chapter be worth the price of the book.

Yes, and there is even a difference of opinion Amongst

those that may be very much in harmony on many theological issues, but may

disagree over The level of of public

Righteous indignation a Christian may Declare

against an elected authority over us.

For instance there are Pastors who

said as soon as Barack Obama was sworn into office. I radically changed The

way that I would refer to him.

I would diminish any kind of harsh Insulting types of terms

and they would say the same thing about Bill Clinton before him.

Others don't necessarily go by that strict guideline of

How they change the way a person Can be described while they're running for office

and then after what after they're elected how that might change Because of the respect we are supposed to

have To those in authority over us, but I cannot help but think back to John

Knox who was not exactly Tiptoeing around issues with

the Queen of England when he was very In her face for lack of a better term

with very Disparaging and very bold

Declarations of her evil and so on.

If you could comment on what I said.

Well, yeah, I think we need to be careful with regard to Examples from church

history because a famous Christian did something doesn't mean to say it's it's right.

And with regard to John Knox That's an interesting Illustration.

I remember being told that Or taught that when he

wrote his pamphlet or his tract the trumpet blast against the monstrous regiment of women.

He was basically Say

in Britain, I'm thinking of a better way to put that over here.

We'd say he was Frowned upon by the other reformers and when he reflected upon that tract

He said that the first trumpet blast had blown away all his friends.

So even in that day that harsh century the 16th century there was some

Disagreement over of what he did there.

But I think as we try to grow in these things, it's it's important

between what we think of the individual and What we think of the office.

Even if we cannot respect what a certain political

only we've got the teaching of Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2

to speak to that and one of the ways in which we can do it is to make sure that we We pray for

our public figures our discipline for the mind

and for the soul to pray for those with whom we might disagree

you mentioned was made earlier of the african -american community of Predominance of the

african -american brothers and sisters in Christ vote Democratic.

It's important for them to pray For and

it's important for other communities within the society Christian communities within the society to pray.

One of the things we can pray is for their safety you can pray for their family.

We can pray for their health and we can pray that they were to remember that they are accountable

ultimately to God and not to the electorate especially When they're in a final term of office where they don't have to

stand up before the electorate again.

They need to be conscious.

Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question for I'm just wanting to hear about more of the chapters.

And I have another thought that's starting to form, but let's hear some more of the chapters.

Well, we're gonna go to a break right now.

We'll let him pick up when we return from the break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And we still have a few of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the good ole USA and

Don't go away.

Oh, we will be right back after these messages and we will have more of preaching and

politics.

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Calm.

Well, as I said before our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is dr Tim jr.

Trumper.

We are discussing preaching in politics engagement without compromise.

Before the break buzz the reverend buzz.

Taylor my co -host asked you about what some of the other chapter headings might be.

Well, I Do pray that the Lord fulfills his will through iron

sharpens iron.

Well, the book is actually a short book it's about 80 odd 90 pages.

There are only three main chapters and as mentioned the first one outlines the middle way the

biblical political way.

The second one and we've mentioned that one talks about the biblical political the way be in a spiritual way and

Then the final main chapter Speaks of it being a practical way the

application of the biblical political approach.

So there are about five sections to that last chapter.

And the first is be passionate because I know that if you take the middle way.

Then.

The party political will think you're insufficiently zealous about the culture war and the

Apolitical will probably think you're insufficiently zealous about the kingdom of heaven.

So the be passionate Passionate for both arms of God's government the church and

civil authority.

And the second is be faithful remember that the church is Spiritual and to

fulfill your duties within the church as a minister as a pastor and then the third And this is very

important with regard to a tax -exempt status is to be objective when you speak about

politics, you know, we have to be full like the Lord Jesus of truth and grace

and Sometimes when you hear Pastors speak about politics.

They're not very objective.

They're already In the camp for one party or the other or one candidate or the other and

It doesn't reflect adequately the truth.

And then be responsible fulfill your civic duties as well as your spiritual duties and

Be creative when you encourage your people to be involved for the sake of The issues that counts

to Christians then look for ways in which you can work for good in

the community without Compromising or transgressing the laws of the land.

So it's it deals with some of those issues bringing the biblical roots

and how do we work it out?

And reverend buzz.

Taylor has a question.

Well, yeah, so the the.

Book is primarily Related to politics as it relates to preaching but

not so much just you do touch.

It sounds like you've touched a little bit in the last chapter.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm Simply as a Christian.

As a Christian, what is my duty to be involved in politics?

Do you actually because you know, you know, there's people who say well, you know, it doesn't belong in the pulpit.

But you as an American have a responsibility before God to be involved politically, you know.

You've you've heard people say that do you touch that in the third chapter there?

Well, I think I touch on it throughout the book in sense of The very nature of

Scripture, yes Scripture is a rescue manual it tells us how

we may be saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and Repentance unto God and faith towards the Lord Jesus

Christ and that's that's what we are to to preach and to teach and to proclaim and to

witness to.

But the Bible also has an awful lot to say about ethics and Above and

beyond our own salvation.

The Bible is about the glory of God begins with God and it points to God and so

There's plenty in the scriptures both the Old Testament on the New Testament about

the way of wisdom and the way of the fool.

Is plenty of Christian ethics there and Although we cannot

faith in Lord Jesus Christ one of the roles that the Christian Church can play is To

retain the freedom in which the gospel may be proclaimed.

I'm reminded of the words of Thomas Chalmers the great 19th century Scottish churchman that

where the gospel says 10 it may moralize 50 and It's in the moralizing of 50

that we retain The freedom to preach the gospel so that the ten are saved.

So we have we have great responsibility both in terms of Witnessing to the power of the gospel,

but also retaining that freedom Where in the gospel can be proclaimed.

Tyler a mastic Beach, Long Island, New York says.

Is it true that American evangelical Christians tend to label? nominal

Christians which means Christians in name only as Saved

because they tend to vote conservative in elections.

A very good question.

Because not only do Many evangelical Christians label nominal Christians as saved

because of the way they vote they very often will label Roman Catholics and Mormons and

others as as Fellow Christians just because of the way they vote.

That's a very dangerous thing, isn't it?

Well, yes, I can't speak to.

I've not so much heard that about evangelical Christians, but I do mention in the book Going back to

the 2008 presidential election.

When John McCain gave his speech?

Receiving the nomination of the Republican Party candidate, you know, he made that.

He made the comments.

We're all Americans were all the children of God.

Right.

And I I feel passionately that we need to distinguish between cultural

Christianity and biblical Christianity and you see this as a Hangover, I've

seen it in Britain as a hangover of the predominance of the Judeo -Christian mindset.

And I see it now also in America that we're secularism.

It's it challenges cultural Christians who no longer see the church as a benefit

beneficial entity to to be attached To and so they forsake the church and it gives

us the opportunity as biblical Christians to say this is what? Christianity truly is

and to demonstrate that there is a difference between being a child of God and simply Connected to

the church.

Yes, it used to be Not that long ago that

Ecumenism between Those professing Christianity and those of

other religions Those who had an aberrant understanding of the gospel like

Roman Catholics and people of other religions that used to be exclusively the

the backyard of the liberals.

Today you have a growing number of conservatives now

Having the same kind of ecumenical attitude but for different reasons, in fact, you also have a

Conservatism who has adopted a social gospel.

That's just a different kind of social gospel than the one that is

Notorious for the left if you could comment on that.

Do you agree with me that there are many?

Professedly conservative and professedly Christian people who have a.

Social gospel just happens to be a more right -leaning one.

Yes. I see that in Pastoral life has witnessed it more broadly to

that Somebody can

Defend the gospel and yet really be in church Because they

see some Attachment to the church as part of the conservative package and

yet Evidently Christ is not Lord of their lives and if he's not Lord of their lives then

It raises the question as to whether they were really born again of God's Spirit in the first place.

And it's it's sad to see that I'm thinking of one person in my mind who used to attend a church and

very conservative politically.

But all of a sudden in midlife Decided not not to attend church at all.

He's as conservative politically and probably theologically as ever he was but doesn't darken

the doors of a church and Apparently, um has no place of worship and

that's up against I think partly in America

Christianity.

RJ in White Plains, New York asks.

There has been a division over even theologically like -minded Christians over whether or not it is a

sin for a Christian to abstain for voting.

This has Especially been made apparent during the last presidential election.

Where you had brothers in Christ to agree on many things that are biblical and theological.

But who radically opposed one another?

Regarding the abstinence idea that a Christian may rightly follow his conscience and not

vote.

What is your opinion on this?

Well, it is it's God who defines what sin is and not us.

So we need to distinguish between something that's sinful and Something that's disagreeable.

And I can't see in Scripture that refusing to Refusing to vote would be a sin.

Even though Christians may radically disagree on what was needed in the election

to ensure a favorable vote as they perceived it.

So I think we need to distinguish between sin and something that's disagreeable.

And.

Yeah, leave it there by the way, I forgot to mention Tyler and

RJ in White Plains.

You're both receiving a free copy of preaching and politics engagement without Compromise as soon as

those arrive in the mail.

They have not yet arrived at our studio.

So we look forward to having those shipped out to you.

By Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com CV bbs .com.

I guess the justification that some Christians use

To identify abstaining from a vote as sin is because of the ramifications

they envision from that abstaining from voting.

They will say that that the person abstaining from voting is

responsible in some level or another for the continuing of

Infanticide through abortion and all kinds of other horrific Crimes of humanity

that exist in this world.

And they will say that things like a vote.

Or should I say a Abstaining from a vote is that in reality a vote

for the more evil of the candidates if you follow what I mean.

Yes.

But I think that's where this is addressed in the final chapter of the book.

We need to be objective.

I Let me let me say where I'm coming from.

Every year the last nine ten years I have walked with my dog

every May or June on the pregnancy resource.

I'm very passionate about pro -life issues.

I'm from that.

I find it horrific that Since Roe vs. Wade basically the

entirety of my home country and numbers wise has been obliterated.

What 60 million people and there's only 65 million people in the whole United Kingdom and I just think that

this is not afford to.

Deny.

But in terms of being objective And it's hard to be objective with regard to that issue it granted

we have to allow for the fact that Christ is Lord of the conscience and at the time in which

I wrote this book at the time of the second

Iraq war only against America going into that war

and The estimates of civilians killed because of that war and so you're

you're dealing with one Another ethical

catastrophe as it was perceived.

And so someone may Be okay with the Democratic Party coming into power because

they felt that Less innocent lives would be lost through

meddling in the Middle East rightly or wrongly perceived and Somebody who votes for the

Republican Party says well, I'm voting for the Republican Party because there's a better chance of of

The unborn being saved.

So I think we need to understand where one another are coming from and

realize that Christ is Lord of our conscience and that we're going to give an account for the way in which we've

Decided issues with regard to the information that we have.

How do you respond to something that I have heard?

Over the years.

From.

Some of my brethren in Christ who are theologically conservative But

have voted for the more liberal candidates.

This is especially true with some of my brothers and sisters who are black Christians

and the response has been Well, the reason why I don't have a

guilty conscience about voting for the more liberal of the candidates is because I agree

with the more liberal candidates views of compassion towards the poor and

the issue of abortion is Not really one that's going to be settled by a

president and Republican Presidents who have given lip service to the pro -life

movement have done little to nothing to stop The spread of abortion, so

I'm not going to use that as an issue to direct my vote and I'm not going to use

same -sex marriage and all these other things as Something to stop me from voting for the liberal candidate

when I believe they are more The the champion for the underdog

and the the impoverished and so on now Could there be.

I mean, I know it's good.

It's it's more difficult to determine When a vote

is sinful and when it is honoring to God when you get into some of these

explanations and defenses, but isn't there sometimes a point where somebody who

is voting more because of a financial issue or financial benefit that they

may Think they are receiving By voting for this person.

It might not even be a realistic Hope or belief that their

candidate will help them in that way.

But but isn't there a point when sometimes those things are in some fashion?

Selfish and putting other issues that are much more clearly a

On a higher rung of importance with God putting those things To a

diminished level of importance.

Can something like that can be can it be identified as sin?

Well in terms in terms of a way of preaching about politics

I think this is one of the things that can can

accomplish of Time and that is as you're expounding the script

to light the things that Really count so far as God is

concerned.

So Yes, there is poverty in America.

And there's a great deal of it more than perhaps most of us know.

Equation is that The average American is probably

a lot more wealthy than than in other countries of the world.

And so you have to then argue the case for moral issues ethical issues being of more

importance to God than material issues when it is

You know, maybe not even out and out poverty, but but comparative poverty within

America.

Certainly.

I'm not saying that because Christ is Lord of my conscience and I must decide that we are

Individualistic we put in a in a right manner within community and to talk

about What matters most to God in terms of the priorities on any given?

Electoral you know.

I just hope our listeners caught what you said because I think you really hit the nail on the head a few minutes ago.

We all and I'm certainly not excluded from this have very strong opinions

about politics and which candidates should have been voted for because of moral reasons and all

that.

But Those aren't the things that define sin.

God's Word defined sin and I think we need to you know I just want to make sure that we don't gloss over that

so quickly yet because you said that quickly.

But it's like no really that was a main point that we have to be careful not to judge a brother

because of Who we voted for anything like that.

Because really the Bible defines sin.

Not not our strong feelings our.

Sanctified feelings if you will or whatever else.

And then sometimes.

I'm sure you would agree.

I'm sure you both would agree.

Buzz and my guest.

That.

There are sometimes areas where the responsibility to

carry a biblical mandate through is Wrongly placed in the hands

of the government.

For instance the the whole idea of Compassion towards the poor is clearly

a biblical mandate.

I mean in the epistle the epistle of James uses a lack of compassion

for those in need and a lack of Providing the physical for the physical needs

of those at least in the body of Christ.

That's great wickedness and a sign of a dead faith.

But having said that there are Christians or those who profess to be And

liberals who will use Christianity.

Even Michael Moore the ultra liberal socialists that we see very often in the

media He will appeal to a Christian.

Blueprint.

For a large government.

That is supposed to be providing for the needs of The poor and so on but that is not a

biblical blueprint for providing for the for for the poor and in fact,

I've heard it very logically and convincingly laid out.

That.

Through a socialist system.

You're actually Involved.

This is actually involved this system not only in coveting thy neighbor's goods but actually

stealing from my neighbor because you are Picking and choosing

a for lack of a better term a charity that you may agree with like giving to the poor or something of that

nature and.

You're.

Removing the funds from the pockets of Christians or

and others as citizens in general who may disagree with that approach to providing for the

poor you're Making them.

Involuntarily.

Forfeit money towards this.

For so the government can take care of it.

And obviously the government doesn't always take care of it the way you think that they're gonna take care of it.

I don't.

I hope I didn't Mumble and fumble and bumble too much with that explanation, but am I making sense there?

Well, yes, I think we have to.

He's going to vote on because it's it's a package.

And What the preachers chiefly

minister the Word of God to preach the whole counsel of God as he's able to which

bears upon many of the issues of today either directly or indirectly and

That's upon the people What the Bible says

with regards to this issue or that issue?

But also sometimes what the Bible does not say and I'm not sure the Bible is there to express One

opinion or another about the size of government what the Bible does say is that God has two arms

to his government one is the church one is civil authority and We need to acknowledge

and respect both and give God.

Thanks for both.

And within that orbit.

How best to vote.

But it's I don't I don't pretend it's easy.

Yes, and in a lot of liberals.

Who know anything about the Bible will appeal to Acts 2 45.

And they began selling their property speaking of the early church.

They began selling their property and possessions and we're sharing them with all as anyone might have need.

They'll use that as a proof text that we should be

Imitating that in our government, but this was a voluntary.

Selling a property and giving it wasn't it wasn't an involuntary act where the

word authority was taking from Their their pockets and bank accounts if you will.

Am I right?

Yeah, that's right.

And also in Acts 2 there from what I recall the the verbs are of continuous tense.

So it wasn't a sort of primitive form of communism where you hand over your property in a once -for -all

act the state and let the State dispense it but it was.

They kept giving as anyone had need.

So and that Seems to be confirmed by the Apostle John in in in his

letters in which When you see your brother has need give to him.

You know, don't wait.

Don't wait for him to ask but give to him when you see that he has need.

Oh, obviously if the early Christians were kept giving it meant that they hadn't given everything over

lock stock and barrel.

So it was voluntary and it was right.

Yeah, we don't know of a point where Lydia no longer was the seller of purple and no longer had any purple to sell.

We're going to a break right now our final break and Reverend buzz is a question for you when we return.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for dr. J are trumper.

Dr. Tim J are trumper when we return.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnz.

And this is the last 25 minutes or so of our program today.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnz and at gmail .com.

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We're talking with dr. Tim Jr. Trumper and His theme is preaching and

politics.

Engagement without compromise before the break.

Reverend buzz.

Taylor was yes wanted to ask the question.

Again, it's not a question.

I'm just bantering on here with the conversation, but I think Chris that the example you brought up is

is a classic example of exactly what we're talking about because.

If.

People are under the Clear teaching of the scriptures where a

passage is exposed, you know by the by the preaching of the word.

The issue would never have come up about Christian communism because we would have known that

what's happening in Acts chapter 2 is Peter has just in his Pentecostal address

pronounced judgment against Jerusalem and If I can quote people, I normally don't quote

you don't polish brass on a sinking ship.

Jerusalem under the judgment of God was basically doomed and

they were selling their goods and laying at the Apostles feet because They weren't going to hang around and of course later on as

the person you persecution got worse They did end up most of them leaving Jerusalem.

So there was a very Real historical reason why they were doing what they were doing there,

but you see To try to teach a political view from the scriptures without looking at the full

context Which is what of course the pastor's job is to you know, set us right on the preaching of the word.

It would have eliminated that altogether.

Any comments on what buzz said dr. Trumper?

A valid point and Not one that I'd really thought of in the car.

In the context I mean, of course it comes up in both the act to and again in acts forward with

Barnabas and the selling of the land.

But I think one of one of the challenges and I'm sure that there are those who would

Present this to me in opposition to the biblical political point of view is Well, if you're

expounding the scriptures consecutively You know when you're going to get to some of these issues

and once you've dealt with the issues What's going to happen to the person who wasn't there to hear that particular

sermon?

But I think in the overall picture of things we are blessed these days to upload our sermons and

to have libraries in our churches and many other ways in which we can

give the sermons that we preach legs and Refer people on to to what we've said on

particular subjects after the sermon has actually been preached.

I can see I can see the issue the challenge of actually

keeping our people informed and and growing them.

I.

Got.

I received a question from Kinross Scotland from our listener Murray and it made me chuckle because

Obviously Murray has been hearing me complain About some of our listeners who send in their emails with

very tiny fonts that I can't read because I'm going blind.

And he sent me this email with a gigantic font and bold type.

And.

Murray says a Christian writer William McDonald wrote politics is corrupt.

It is a system of compromise.

Decisions are commonly made on the basis of what is Expedient rather than what is right.

It adheres to human rather than divine principles.

I'm just wondering with that in mind whether a born -again Christian fully conscience

Fully conscious of their calling from God can really get involved in party Politics

and even justify spending a large proportion of their time sitting in Parliament

with regard the difference mentioned earlier.

With regard to the difference mentioned earlier between a preacher sharing views privately rather than from the pulpit.

Would you feel that there ever comes a point as with?

Bonhoeffer when the danger becomes so pressing that he finds it impossible to remain private

with his views.

I guess there's really two questions there for you dr. Trumper.

One is I'm wondering with that in mind whether a born -again Christian Fully conscious of their

calling from God can really get involved in party politics.

And then I'll go on to have you answer the second question.

Well, certainly.

There's a there's a tension there because on the one hand it is God who's ordained civil authority.

And.

We are called to be salt and light so I think in principle there's nothing wrong with Christians being involved in

politics.

In fact, I think it's a very honorable Calling to have.

But obviously in entering into it, especially in an era era in which the

Judeo -Christian worldview has been challenged heavily by secularism that there are particular

challenges with that and also given the pressure of media these days, so they're always

demanding responses and Calling you to make on -the -spot answers.

There are challenges there as well.

The very nature of politics is the art of the possible and I think that the answer

lies in the nature of the compromise that's called for and obviously a

Christian being involved in politics if he is asked to compromise on an issue, that's really

fundamental to the scriptures.

Then he needs to be ready to resign and to step aside if need be.

But on the other hand if it is a matter of compromise with regard to different

opinions Then in the very process of compromise He may be able

to do an awful lot of good.

I remember when Lord McLeod McKay of plush burn entered

into was a mrs. Thatcher's Cabinet many years ago professor

Don McLeod of the Free Church of Scotland College wrote an article appealing to

Christians to understand that politics is the art of the possible and Almost to

expect him to compromise on certain issues.

I don't think he was saying to compromise on fundamental issues.

But to understand that in order to achieve some good you may not always be able

To do or say what what the Christian Church would want him to say, so it's it's a thorny

issue.

But I do believe that God has given

us some great politicians in history who have really feared the name of the Lord and done

an awful lot of good, but.

I.

Think the Christian politician on the one hand needs to do his job.

Well, but also needs to hold very loosely ambition for high office.

And wouldn't you distinguish between The proper and

acceptable role of the average Christian the average member of the congregation

Who holds no office higher than a deacon.

And the the pastor.

Being openly actively publicly politically involved in running for office in particular

whereas the pastor has supposed to have so many duties that he

Oversees and so many people that he oversees and the souls of who He is supposed to be

overseeing that to be involved in especially a political campaign running for office Would be

an improper diluting of his time.

There are Christians who vehemently disagree with each other on this and I was wondering what your thoughts were,

you know.

And in an ordinary ordinary situation, I would think that's true I mean a minister has his

calling and He's for

the study of the scriptures and to prayer and to shepherd the flock that's been given to him.

And if he does that diligently enough, he's going to find that he is He has more than ample ample things

to fill his time.

I mean there are extraordinary Situations, I mean take the late Ian

Paisley Church Martyrs Memorial

Free Presbyterian Church in Belfast.

He was a member of the British Parliament Different times a member of Stormont member of the European Parliament and

I don't know how he pulled that all off.

I mean he was a great creature.

Some have said that he would have been far more effective In preaching the gospel there in Ireland had he

not got involved in politics.

I don't want to speak to his his conscience, but you

know, I ponder I ponder about about his situation and other situations.

Yeah, Reverend Buzz Taylor my co -host remembers well hearing Ian Paisley preach because he is a graduate of Bob

Jones University and Knows that Ian Paisley was one of the very very few Calvinists

ever permitted to speak there at BJU.

And I can attest to the fact that if he preached for an hour and a half and stopped he'd say well.

Where's the rest of it?

A.

Standing interest in the in the Paisley family my father Had preached at Martyrs

Memorial and I knew him and.

So it's it's something that.

I've pondered over the years, huh?

Yeah, I've developed friendships with a number of people in the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and

Free Presbyterian Church of North America and the typically my experience is that they

are Extraordinary preachers.

When I when I hear them preach I might have some differences of opinion over the

exclusivity of Exclusivity I should say of the King

James Version, but and some other things but I Really enjoy

my fellowship with these brethren and enjoy and blessed by them preaching for the most part.

Oh the the last part of Murray's question

With regard to the difference mentioned earlier between a preacher sharing views privately rather than from the pulpit.

Would you feel that?

There ever comes a point as with Bonhoeffer when the danger becomes so pressing that he finds it impossible to remain

private with his views.

I.

Can imagine a situation, you know where you're faced with great tyranny as he was.

The National Socialist Party in that regard is so Much the personification of

evil that it becomes a duty to speak out.

The question with Bonhoeffer is whether he was indeed a martyr.

You know Eric Metaxas has subtitled his book Describing him as a martyr, but I think

that is that is an open question.

Question.

There was not so much about whether he should have spoken out publicly or whether he should have conspired to

Or being involved with the conspiracy privately.

With a view to the death of Hitler and it's interesting that I think there were 15 attempts made on Hitler's life

and in the end It was he who took his own life it was almost as if

God prevented Anybody else from taking this life and he was brought to take his

own life.

Hmm.

I mean, of course those are issues.

That could fill an entire month worth of broadcasting.

The at least the issues on whether a Christian should ever be can be a

part of Plots like that, but you are talking about one of the most hideous and

satanic leaders that ever Rose up to power on the globe.

Meaning Adolf Hitler, of course.

Yes, thank you.

Yeah, and I don't want to you know, here I am in in the safety of a

home here in America.

Just not involved in the Third Reich and it's very easy to give theoretical answers and

I with regard to Bonhoeffer but it's it is a question and I

Pray that we're never ever faced with them.

We have.

A.

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know?

Why is it that so many of our brothers in Christ in?

The UK who agree with us on many areas of doctrine are so staunchly

opposed to the American Fight for freedom of bearing arms.

They seem to view us as gun hung gun hungry crazed

Individuals when tyranny typically has Has risen

on this planet when those in governing power have removed

all weaponry From the citizens leaving the populace defenseless.

I don't understand why our brethren in Christ in the UK would be such would hold such

opposition to our Cherishing this right that we have here in America.

One is that America because of its Geographical position

with the Pacific Ocean on one side and the Atlantic on the other is very isolated.

I mean America is a huge country and you have an awful lot of awful lot of space

and Indeed the whole population of the United Kingdom could fit in a quarter of the

size does fit in the quarter of the size of Texas so one of the issues

is American isolationism, which is no fault of of the American people that

this is where we are.

Also when you've got a country as sizable as America You can live in different parts and really have

your viewpoint challenged.

Although of course the media is changing that.

So what I'm saying is that we are of our own background and our own

history and of course You know when you think of American history you think of the West being one

you think of People living in isolated places where they needed their gun to

protect.

When you grow up in Britain carrying arms

You don't know anybody.

Or at least nobody's speaking about owning guns.

It's it's just an entirely different Environment in the whole course of my life, which includes

the 17 years of lived in America I've only ever heard of three massacres in the United Kingdom.

And so it's very difficult for us to understand why

Americans Need so many weapons and the power of the weapons that they have

and also to weigh.

The amount of massacres and the amount of people killed through through arms here in the

United States so that when people come to me and say May never have left the country aren't you afraid

about going to Europe?

Aren't you afraid about going to them?

Aren't you afraid of going to Chicago?

You know, they've had what's over 700 people killed last last year.

And I think part of the issue is for the British at least thinking through it theologically.

The Second Amendment of the Constitution was what 240 years ago it

predated the Police force which came into being

in the United Kingdom the bobbies in the 1830s.

And.

We see how there can be such support

a viewpoint which seems to be predicament ethic.

Namely an eye for an eye and a tough other than a New

Testament ethic.

Turn the cheek I'm full of that is in the.

So when they went to Indians in Ecuador

They said well, we're not going to take weapons because if we kill anybody they'll go to hell.

If we die We'll go to heaven.

And I think it's one of those areas and we all have cultural blind spots.

If you go to Britain, we've got them and you come to America the Americans have them.

I really do feel that the right to bear arms is a blind spot in the American

people.

Yes, of course, you will have proponents of very strong advocates of the Second Amendment that will.

Talk about the fact that statistically appears irrefutable evidence

that those areas in the United States where gun laws are most lax or the

safest places to live and where you have a lot of gun control and restrictions on

ownership you have a lot of illegal use of Firearms being used to

harm the citizens, but.

My response to that is well, they're not dealing with the under underlying

issue and that is the excise from America of Arms

amongst the people, you know it's clear in the in the Second Amendment of the Constitution that they're talking about a militia and it's

also in the Articles of Confederation and so people say well, we cannot get rid of in

America 300 million weapons.

I say, okay, if that is if that is really the case Then we need to change

the foreign policy because if we cannot get rid of weapons in America Then we shouldn't be

trying to get rid of weapons in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Spending trillions of dollars trying to do that and saying at the same time We can't get rid of weapons in the United

States and it doesn't seem.

To me to add up.

Well, perhaps we could have one day you on the program debate.

The debate dr. Ron Gleeson.

I don't know if you're familiar with dr. Gleeson.

He's a Presbyterian minister.

Who's my name by name?

He's written a book on?

The Second Amendment.

Perhaps we could have you to have a friendly brotherly debate.

But.

If you if you could if you could actually Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before the

program is over now.

Well.

We're to preach the Word of God

and God and that

applies to the political realm as also to the spiritual realm.

And I would say if I was to give one practical piece of advice to to the listeners To get

out and to travel as C .S. Lewis once said I believe this is in fernseed and elephants.

The man who's traveled is not ignorant of the myths of his native village and The

more we travel more exposed to other cultures other ways of doing things it broadens our horizons

about.

Political disputes domestically.

Well, dr. Trumper.

I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your Contact information.

I know that your church website is 7th ref dot -org,

that's the number 7 th ref for reformed

org and You also have an online ministry center at from his

fullness calm.

That's from his fullness calm.

Any other contact information you care to share?

Well, there's a Facebook page also from his fullness and Be glad to connect with any

of the listeners and thank you so much for for the opportunity to talk this afternoon.

Oh, thank you, brother, and I look forward to having you back on the program.

It's always a joy and look forward to getting those books so that we can share them with our listeners.

And Want to remind our listeners, please keep iron sharpens iron in prayer and

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And tomorrow many of you may be interested to know that our guest is Larry

Taunton and He is going to be discussing his book the faith of Christopher Hitchens.

He developed a fairly close friendship with the notorious atheist straight up

through his death, which is even more tragic a death because from what

we know he went to his grave and entered into eternity as being a

hater of God and But we may learn a lot on how to have

exchanges and interactions with our atheist friends as a result of Larry Taunton's own friendship with

the atheist Christopher Hitchens so we hope that you tune in tomorrow and Send in your questions.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a

far greater Savior Than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.

And it's been great having you back in studio Reverend buzz Taylor as well.

Well, God bless you, and we will hear from you tomorrow.

God willing.