Sodomy: Should Christians Counsel Gays to Straighten Up And Marry A Member of The Opposite Sex?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, should

01:39

Christians counsel gays to straighten up and marry a member of the opposite sex? So we're doing this particular episode because I don't know if any of you guys listening have heard this, but there's actually been a bill passed recently up in our country to the north,

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Canada. They passed a bill recently that's focused a lot around homosexuality and how people can interact with homosexuals.

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And so, Tim, could you just kind of explain for a moment what exactly this bill is, what it means, what's going on with it, and what it will mean for the

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Christian church in the upcoming near future? Yeah, sure.

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So this C4 bill that was passed in Canada, it was essentially passed unanimously, and it's a bill that essentially is criminalizing any attempt to change a homosexual's quote -unquote orientation.

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So it's a bill that basically criminalizes any attempt to do so in a way that's pretty thoughtless.

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I mean, I think there's, you know, attempts, psychological attempts to change.

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There has been historically attempts to change a person's orientation as far as that goes through, you know, electroshock therapy and crazy things along those lines.

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So there's plenty of psychological attempts to do that that are cruel in certain ways and unhelpful and ineffective to actually deal with the problems.

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But basically any attempt to do so, whether it's through Christian counseling, and this is not even criminalizing an unwilling person, like a person who is being forced, you know, to change their orientation against their will.

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This is outlawing basically any help that you might provide anyone who comes to you asking you for help in dealing with this in any kind of context.

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And so it's a pretty sloppy bill. But this is something that's been happening for a while now.

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And just to say a few comments about it as it relates to the Christian world in general. It seems like, you know, big evangelicalism, the

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Christian world has basically been, you know, adopted all the secular assumptions as far as this goes.

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And so there's a lot that we could talk about along these lines. But for a while now, all the main individuals who were speaking to the issue of reparative therapy or gay conversion therapy as far as that goes, most of those have been ex -gays or lesbians.

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So I'm thinking in particular of Rosario Butterfield or Jackie Hill Perry or Sam Albury.

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Those are individuals who are being promoted. And, you know, any kind of – they would label in one way or another an attempt to change a person's orientation as basically a heresy.

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So they talk about the heresy of reparative therapy or conversion therapy. And so the evangelical world and the

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Christian world – or the evangelical world and the secular world are all kind of united in this quest to either outlaw gay conversion therapy or label it a heresy or speak against it in the strongest terms possible.

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And I would say that, you know, it seems that Europe and Canada are one, you know, stage further than we are in basically all these issues.

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And so if Christians don't unite and take a stand and repent of the errors that we need to repent of, it seems safe to assume that, you know, this is where we're headed.

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Now, I think there are some signs of life in America that basically there is some pushback over here that may or may not prove to be effective.

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There's plenty of people – you know, soccer moms now storming the gates against critical theory and things like that.

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Soccer moms lead the way. This is leading the way, you know, as sad as that is. That's where the resistance is coming from.

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But there is some resistance here, and I am hopeful that perhaps our nation will wake up and not go the way of Canada or Europe.

05:57

But these things are distressing for sure. Yeah, so the bill is basically, you know, it's labeled as a bill that is meant to outlaw conversion therapy.

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But then the problem is if you read this bill, the definitions are so vague that really what it – it effectively is a tool that could be used to outlaw really any kind of pushback against homosexuality.

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Is that – that's right? Yeah, I mean even at the sermon level or something like that, any attempt in any way to basically speak to a biblical position on sexual immorality is going to be lumped in under the same kind of category.

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Right, and so effectively what's going to happen is now in Canada you have a legitimate bill put forth by the government that nobody opposed in terms of, you know, the politicians who were given a vote to this thing.

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No one opposed it, and so now what's going to happen is you're going to have – essentially what you're doing is you're outlawing the

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Bible. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I mean particularly as it relates to that one subject, sure, it's now labeled illegal to speak on that.

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And so you had a lot of Canadian pastors who were reaching out to American pastors essentially asking everyone on the 16th, which is next

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Sunday, to basically preach a sermon on the

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Bible's position on a homosexual orientation and the biblical admonition to change as far as that goes.

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And so basically you have some influential pastors down there, James Coates, I think

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Joe Boot, Dr. Joe Boot, and others who are basically going to defy that law the

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Sunday after it's passed or goes into effect essentially. And then a lot of American pastors are asked to join in on that just to basically support them in what they're doing and then also basically to establish a precedent of resistance even here before it happens to go that way, assuming that it may, which seems likely it will, but unless the

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Lord's at work. Yeah, it's definitely, this is a very concerning event that's going on right now.

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And it's not really surprising if you've been paying attention to the way everything's been going in the

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Western world the last, I mean I guess for me the last two years or so, but really probably much longer than that.

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But essentially this is our, we wanted to do this episode to be a part of that, to speak out in the way that we can against homosexuality, knowing what the

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Bible has to say about it in light of this bill which is essentially banning the

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Bible's view on the family, on sex, all these things that are really kind of foundational to pretty much everything, every aspect of life.

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I mean the family is foundational to these things and so this is our effort to be a part of that and speak out against it.

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So we have a lot of questions to go through. I don't know that we'll make it through all of them, but I really want to get through a lot of these because I think that they'll be really helpful for people.

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So I guess where we'll start first is simply just to ask, obviously there are a lot of people who disagree with us when it comes to homosexuality, when it comes to same -sex attraction.

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They really don't even understand why we so staunchly disagree with them and why we won't just go away on this topic, or at least some

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Christians won't. I think some have already given up on this stance, but thankfully there's still some who refuse to move from this.

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But Tim, could you just start out by explaining to us why exactly is this such an important topic?

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I mean essentially a lot of people are just going to say, hey look, love is love, right? Why are you against this type of love just because it's not the way that you love someone?

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So Tim, I guess could you just start there and explain for our listeners why exactly it is that we refuse to say that this is just another innocent form of love that's just different from the way that you and I would?

11:02

Yeah, are you asking related to homosexual love in general? Or are you asking related to homosexual quote -unquote love in general?

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Are you talking about reparative therapy in general? Why would we push back? Are you talking about a homosexual orientation?

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Where do you want to...? Yeah, I guess let's just start with... Just push back on the... go ahead. I guess let's just start with homosexual love in general and kind of work our way to the reparative therapy aspect of it because I do have some questions related to that.

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But it might be nice to have a bit of this background to kind of build on.

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Yeah, sure. So the world's definition of love is certainly what we've described in different podcasts as universal positive regards.

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So the world demands that basically in order to love someone, you praise them no matter what they do, right?

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So you have to tell them they're wonderful. You have to tell them they're special. And then you basically just have to give them what they want, right?

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So related to the fat -shaming episode that we did... That one was very loving.

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Very loving, yeah, for sure. But love in the way that the world understands it is giving the 600 -pound person as many pizzas as they want.

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It's basically giving the person what they want. But then if you think about love from a biblical worldview, there's obviously things that a person can engage in which are harmful for them and that don't need to be praised as far as that goes.

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And so a biblical definition of love is not just going to mindlessly praise whatever a person happens to choose in terms of their actions, their attitudes, their identity, or whatever else.

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A biblical view of love is going to be informed by what is helpful to that individual, right?

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So there are things that we can praise and there are things that we can't praise. And there are things that we should support and there are things that we can't support.

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And homosexual love, as far as that goes, is an example of something that the Bible speaks of as a sin.

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And everything the Bible describes as a sin are destructive in one way or another. And whether or not you realize all the ways in which a vice in the scriptures is destructive is irrelevant.

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God is smarter than us. He knows better than us how he's made the world. And homosexual love, as far as that goes, an attempt to find some sort of companionship between members of the same ultimate intimate companionship among members of the same sex is a fruitless enterprise.

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And I mean that literally. It's fruitless. Meaning, if you engage in that, you're opening yourself up to certain forms of disease.

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You're rejecting the purpose for which God made you. God created man. He put him in a garden.

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He says, Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it. You can't fill the earth full of people if you engage in a same -sex relationship.

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It's not productive, as far as that goes. It leads you to feed your selfishness in certain ways.

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And so God's designed marriage to be an intimate form of companionship that puts two different types of creatures together, man and female, in order to help them to grow and to be sanctified and to be less selfish.

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And so same -sex relationships fundamentally feed selfishness. It doesn't push you in the ways that they should push you.

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There's destructive and societal consequences to this sort of thing. It is a perversion in the language of scripture.

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And it's something that we shouldn't praise. So those are just some short answers to the question of why a

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Christian might push back against the idea of homosexual love. Okay, well,

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I think that's a helpful response in terms of why is this such an important topic that we need to constantly bring it up and explain why homosexuality is wrong and why we can't just go away on this topic, why we can't just be silent and let people just do whatever they want unchecked when it comes to homosexuality.

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So in light of this, now kind of going back to the reparative therapy, the conversion therapy bill up in Canada, obviously this bill is essentially outlawing any kind of pushback against homosexuality.

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That's how vague the definition of conversion therapy is in the bill.

15:48

So I guess now kind of answer the same question, but with conversion therapy.

15:57

Well, maybe not the same question, but more just answer the question, why is it that Christians not only have to think that homosexuality is wrong, that homosexuality is evil, but they have to constantly keep telling everyone it's wrong even when the majority of society at this point accepts homosexuality for what it is and isn't really going to push back against it?

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Why is it that Christians have to keep essentially opening our big fat mouths and saying, hey, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this, you need to turn away from this?

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Why exactly is that so crucial for us? Part of the discussion is related to what are

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Christians actually pushing back on? There's plenty of discussion and debate on that very point.

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So are we pushing back on the act of sodomy itself or the act of gay marriage itself?

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Are we pushing back on the idea of a gay orientation? What did you have in mind for this line of thinking?

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Are you talking about just why are we pushing back on the actions itself like gay marriage or sodomy or those kind of things?

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Are we pushing back on the orientation or trying to change the orientation? What do you have in mind? Really both.

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I think it's both. Yeah, well, yeah. So obviously one of the things we talked about before is there's the issue of love that's involved.

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So you have a certain definition of love that is being redefined. So I think most people understand and are very aware that there are practices which are harmful to individuals.

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So related to a subject like pedophilia, we still live in a world which strangely thinks that pedophilia is wrong.

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I say that it's strange because we've adopted every other form of sexual immorality as if it's normative.

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But still we're holding on to pedophilia as being abnormal. But then attempts to try to change a person's orientation towards pedophilia, we haven't gotten to a point to where that's considered to be criminal or a crime or anything else.

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So that's strangely put in some other category. But then if you could think about that subject for a minute, you would realize that, hey, wouldn't it be better for kids who are being abused by perverts, wouldn't it be better for them to try to criminalize or outlaw or push back against pedophilia?

18:47

Well, sure. Related to bestiality, wouldn't it be better for the animals, since we love animals so much, wouldn't it be better for the animals to try to push back against the idea of bestiality to some degree because an animal can't consent and all that and we have to protect the animals?

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So wouldn't that be better to try to do that? Well, we know that it would, but then with the idea of homosexuality, because it's consenting adults, this idea of having adults consent to a particular act, that's considered the linchpin of the moral arrangement, but we don't have any thought about all the destructive things that actually come from that.

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So part of it, if you're thinking about it on a practical level, there is actual harm that comes from homosexual relationships.

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There is actual harm, tangible harm that we could talk about at great length, but I think the more fundamental issue is that God has made man.

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He's created him with a purpose, and that purpose needs to be fulfilled. So God is the primary one who is sinned against when it comes to the issue of sodomy or homosexuality.

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God's the primary one who is sinned against, and it's his world, and we are his creatures, and he has made us.

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If we're Christians, we ought to be advocating for his purposes and advocating for his glory and seeking his honor and following his rules.

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So he's the one we're primarily concerned about, not people. God's made us, and he's described the church as responsible to be salt and light in the midst of a fallen world.

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So that's part of our responsibility in this world is to be an agent of preservation in the midst of a fallen world.

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If we don't want to engage in that battle, then we essentially are going to be unfaithful to his purposes.

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Typically, as the church goes, society goes. So the more that we refuse to push back against these things, the more not only societal consequences you'll see, but the more judgment of God that you'll see that we actually experience.

20:58

So as you read through Romans 1, you see that when God gives a society over to homosexuality, not only are there human consequences that come from that deviant form of sexual immorality, there are many consequences that come from that, but also

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God's active judgment is going to be... God's active judgment is visited in itself on a society engaging in those kind of behaviors and attitudes and actions, but then eventually when he's had enough and the iniquity of a society is complete,

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God will come in judgment against that society too. So I guess there's a lot of reasons why we have to clearly and faithfully and forcefully speak against these things.

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But not only that, if you love people, the Bible says that neither fornicators nor idolaters nor effeminate or homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God.

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If you love people, this is the kind of thing that God categorically puts in the same category as fornicators, idolaters, effeminate, homosexual murderers, thieves.

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These are things that if engaged in an unrepentant way will bar people from entrance into God's kingdom at the end.

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You mentioned in your response, you mentioned essentially by neglecting to speak out against homosexuality and condemn it, what will happen is essentially society will suffer for a few different reasons, whether it be

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God's judgment or just the inherent evilness of homosexuality.

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Much like if no one ever spoke out against murder and then everyone just started murdering, obviously that society with no punishment for the murder, then obviously that society is going to suffer and homosexuality is no different.

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But I have seen a lot of people essentially come back and say, well, hey, you know what?

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I've actually seen more harm caused by Christians trying to tell gay people to stop being so gay.

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I've seen more harm come from that than good. More specifically, I think a lot of the common experiences that most people are probably immediately thinking of when

23:37

I say something like that is like, hey, I can think of the gay person who they grew up in church and they knew that homosexuality was wrong and they knew that they shouldn't feel the way that they feel, but then they still feel that way and they say they want to stop being attracted to the same sex, but then they just can't stop and so they start struggling with these ideas.

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They start feeling depressed and they start feeling worthless and all of these negative emotions.

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I've seen plenty of people push back with that idea saying, hey, well, you know what? If it's so helpful, then why aren't all these people glad to flee from homosexuality?

24:26

Why does it seem like they're always being hurt? In answering that question, could you just kind of explain to us,

24:38

I guess first, why is it that it seems like there's so many people who when confronted with the idea that homosexuality is evil, they're just met with essentially disappointment, even if there's an aspect of them that might even agree that maybe it's not that good or they at least acknowledge, hey,

25:01

God doesn't think it's good. Sure. Along those lines, basically part of why

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Canada is criminalizing this sort of thing is because there's this narrative that's formed essentially that any attempt to try to change a person's orientation as far as that goes if there is such a thing as a homosexual identity or orientation in the way that's being described, any attempt to change that will inevitably lead the person to commit suicide or something like that.

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There's been all the homosexuals who commit suicide or the transgenders who commit suicide because they are basically shamed for being who they are essentially in terms of their identity.

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Then that shaming basically leads them to despair and leads them to this false kind of guilt which is going to inevitably lead them to suicide.

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Is that kind of what you have in mind? Yeah, yeah. So that kind of narrative is,

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I think it's a very naive understanding of reality in general and it doesn't really deal with some of the things the

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Bible speaks to. So in terms of the way the scriptures work, God's moral law is written on our heart and the

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Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. So this is the kind of world, I mean God made the kind of world that he made and the kind of world that he made is the kind of world to where his laws, you can violate them but then if you violate his laws, you're only going to be led to heartache and pain and suffering.

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And so one of the things the Bible says is the way of the transgressor is hard, meaning there's a way that seems right under man but in the end it leads to death.

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If you reject God's laws and you reject God's standards, there's a problem of guilt that's associated with it.

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So just take a different kind of analogy, so take the analogy of murder or something like that.

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I'm sure that you've watched plenty of movies where the person commits the murder and then basically they spend the rest of their life kind of destabilized after that and filled with guilt and filled with shame and filled with condemnation and constantly looking over their shoulder and constantly wondering when the police are going to come get them.

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You can imagine that kind of scenario. You see it in books or movies or everything else. You can imagine that kind of scenario.

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Now God gives a law that says, hey, don't murder, right? And there are consequences to that kind of thing.

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Now you reject that law, you can reject it all day long and say, hey, well, murder was justified in my case and God will forgive me and whatever else or who is he to tell me if he knew what

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I went through. You can do all that, but then because the world is the world that he made, when you do that, you are going to experience the consequences that come from that.

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One of the consequences that come from that is the consequence of guilt and shame and condemnation, if that makes sense.

27:59

And so when you relate that to the idea of sodomy you relate that to the idea of transgenderism.

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You relate that to the sexual identities and orientations that are seeking to be praised in society in general.

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One of the problems is that if you try, like you have a different morality that's at operation within the world and within the church.

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And one of the things to realize is that there used to be social stigmas and pressures against certain forms of deviant sexual behavior that were largely preventative medicine as far as that goes.

28:43

They might have been executed at times in a bit of a cruel way. I mean

28:48

I remember growing up there was a game that would be blasphemous to play now, but in the spirit of the queer game essentially or something like that.

28:57

So when people think about trying to repair a gay person's identity, that's the kind of example that comes to mind as you're just a bully picking on the poor person who was born this way and can't do anything about it.

29:16

And what you need to do is triumphantly affirm your identity. Part of what's happening in movies and societies in general is that in every movie and every

29:25

TV show, the gay person is always the best dressed and always the most intelligent, and everything else always the most witty.

29:35

And so our society is actively trying to praise this vice, but then the problem is there's consequences to that kind of thing.

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And it's not a path that ultimately is going to lead to anything good. And the problem is that there's guilt and there's shame that comes with it.

29:50

And when you engage in high -handed rebellion against God, the problem is you're going to feel guilt and you're going to feel shame and you're going to feel condemnation.

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And no amount of looking in the mirror and saying, hey, you're wonderful and you're special is going to help you to deal with that fundamental reality.

30:04

And that's why gays and transgenders and all that, that's why they commit higher levels of suicide.

30:12

And it's not because people are messing with them or whatever else on some sort of broad scale, although I would say that the fact that there might be society that's still pushing back against that at all in whatever way is better than being in the society that universally praises it because it is a destructive lifestyle that is going to lead to guilt and shame and condemnation.

30:34

And there's moral things that are happening in these kind of scenarios that the world is unaware of.

30:40

And there's no way that you can pursue rebellion against God and not be fundamentally destabilized, fundamentally hopeless and given into despair and everything else.

30:54

You can pursue iniquity with everything that you have and all you're going to get is pain and suffering and heartache.

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And that's what happens when the transgender person changes their gender. They think, oh man, I'm really a man who's trapped in a woman's body and if I just change my body, that'll be the answer.

31:13

And then, surprise, wonder of wonders, they end up wanting to commit suicide after they get the surgery because they realize that they've fundamentally mutilated themselves and it didn't fix the fundamental problems.

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And now they've marred the image of God in them to such a degree that you can't go back from it and it doesn't help.

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And you can look at that in some simplistic way and say, oh, that's because society is shaming this person. And it's just the wrong conclusion.

31:40

And the conclusion is you're living in God's world and what He says goes. And when you rebel in a high -handed way like that, there is guilt and shame and condemnation that ultimately is going to lead you to despair and have no hope left.

31:52

And that's the fruit of it. That's the bitter fruit of it. So why is it then,

32:01

I've seen people primarily online, so take that with a grain of salt,

32:13

I guess. But I've seen plenty of people online who essentially say, we actually read an article, both you and I, this week, where a guy who was claiming to be homosexual and Christian, which we know, unrepentantly homosexual, and you and I know that those two things, they kind of contradict each other.

32:38

But anyways, we were reading this article from this guy. I've forgotten his name now.

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But he essentially was saying, hey, look, I realized that when

32:53

I was younger, I grew up in, I think, either a Baptist or a Southern Baptist church.

32:59

I realized that the Bible said that homosexuality was wrong. I knew what

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I was feeling, what I was desiring, in terms of who I was attracted to, was wrong.

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And I didn't want to be attracted to the same sex.

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I didn't want to be attracted to men when I was a man. And I feel like I've seen people say that they feel this way, where essentially, hey,

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I get it's wrong. I don't want to do it. I don't want to be attracted to a man. Why can't

33:36

I stop? I keep trying. I keep trying to not be gay, but it just doesn't seem like I can stop.

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And then eventually, a lot of them either come to the conclusion that, well, it must not be that bad if I can't stop, or, well,

33:55

God's not real then, because they keep saying this is wrong. If it were wrong, I should be able to stop, but I can't stop.

34:02

So why is it that people, when confronted with the reality that they need to, if you're a man, be attracted to a woman, and a woman be attracted to a man, when they're confronted with that idea, it seems like so many of them just can't even get there.

34:22

Could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, well, that thing that you're describing, that the reality that there are people who want to quit being gay or want to quit being attracted to members of the same sex and are having little to no success in changing that fundamental set of desires or that orientation or those poles, and they can't seem to bring themselves to be attracted to members of the opposite sex, that's a reality that there's plenty of stories that go along those lines, and I don't have some vested interest in saying that that's never happened or they're just lying about it or whatever else.

35:02

But that's the kind of thing that essentially has led individuals like Rosario Butterfield, Sam Mulberry, Jackie Hill Perry, essentially to describe an expectation on the part of the church that an individual does change that, or some sort of teaching that basically says that the gospel has provided a solution to that.

35:26

They would describe that as a form of heresy essentially because they're looking at a person like that. They know people like that.

35:31

They've interacted with people like that who seem to have little to no success, and then they describe it in kind of a dismissive way as attempting to pray the gay away or something like that, right?

35:43

And so there's people. There's obviously people in that category, but then the question is, well, why?

35:48

That's your question essentially, right? Or what do you do with that? What do you do with that sort of information?

35:53

How do you respond to that sort of information? How can you encourage? Essentially, how can you encourage people to try to— does the

36:04

Bible tell us to try to encourage them to fix that or is that part of who they are or is that— how do we deal with that kind of reality, right?

36:13

Yeah, and I would just say that the reality is that in general, I would say the church really hasn't taught on sanctification in general, and so just broadening the topic out, most of what you get at a standard church is going to be either the self -help crap that you're going to get in your big mega -churches,

36:32

Church for the Unchurched, Andy Stanley type of churches. You get all the self -help crap. You're going to get a watered -down gospel.

36:43

At churches that are attempting to be faithful, often they really provide very little practical help as it relates to how to be sanctified in general, and there's plenty of movements out there that basically just— the church, what happens on Sunday is it's basically an evangelistic event where you get 52 ways to be saved every year and very little to no help on how to be sanctified.

37:04

So I'm not surprised that for many people, they really don't—the people who are talking about this, they really don't have—they have very little understanding of how to even pursue sanctification.

37:16

And so then when you talk about, hey, trying to change a homosexual orientation or something like that, to them that's reduced—and this is always a tag or this is always a tell, like if you want a poker tell, to someone who really has a very stunted view of sanctification and doesn't know how to—very little about sanctification.

37:36

When they talk about the subject, they reduce that to attempting to pray the gay away or something like that.

37:41

That basically tells you that they don't have any understanding of sanctification and how it works and how you should deal with any kind of deviant— any kind of deviant sin that you're committed.

37:53

So I would say that there's some sort of dynamic like that. And I'm sure there's many, many people who have prayed,

38:00

Lord, please take it away, Lord, please take it away, Lord, please take it away, and he doesn't even take away. And so then they conclude in despair, well,

38:06

I guess this is just who I am. I'm stuck with it. I'm tired of asking

38:13

God to do something that he doesn't seem to do. But then the Bible does teach us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it's

38:19

God who's at work to will and to do inside of us. And so there is part of the

38:25

Christian life that involves effort, involves work, involves—the Bible talks about resisting the devil.

38:30

Resist the devil and he'll flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. The Bible tells us to put to death what's earthly in us.

38:40

These evil desires, sexual immorality, all these things. So you're supposed to put these to death. You're supposed to rend your heart, not your garment.

38:48

I think the church really has a passive view of sanctification as it relates to many topics. And so we really—I mean

38:54

I would say that change is rare for the church in general. I mean if you just think about your experience and think about people, the vast majority of people, they are who they are.

39:06

And this happens in marriage. This happens in—related to scandalous sins like sodomy.

39:14

I mean this is—the sad truth is that people generally tend to be who they are.

39:21

Christian in name—I mean whether you're talking about professing Christians or not, I mean people don't seem to change.

39:28

There's been plenty of people who have gotten married to a person. They've seen their flaws and they had some expectation that this person would be dramatically different in the first few weeks of marriage, only to find out that they're 10 years in and they're committing the same sins with the same frequency or very little noticeable difference over and over and over again.

39:50

And at that point, I must have picked the wrong person or anything else. And so I would just say in general, we have a stunted view of sanctification.

39:58

And we don't—I would say the church in large, we don't know how to help people to pursue biblical change as we should.

40:05

And so it doesn't matter what the subject is. But then the problem is—here's the problem. Just because we don't see as much fruit as what we would expect or on the timetable that we would expect, that doesn't have anything—that doesn't say anything about what the

40:21

Bible tells us to do and God's actual ability to heal us. It may say something about our understanding of how he does that and the means he does that and the methods he does that and how that comes about as far as that goes.

40:33

But I would say that the church by and large is like a person who needs to find a job. This is what the church by and large does.

40:42

Just imagine a person who needs to find a job just praying, Lord, give me a job, Lord, give me a job, Lord, give me a job.

40:48

But then he doesn't put any resumes out and he doesn't do any work and he doesn't pursue any employment. He doesn't ask anyone for leads.

40:54

He doesn't do any Internet searches. He's just, Lord, give me a job, Lord, give me a job.

41:00

Now can God give you the job? Sure. Have I gotten jobs that way? Sure. Right?

41:06

God can do whatever he wants to do, but you know what? If I look back over my history of the jobs I've found in my life, 99 % of those jobs have been through a lot of prayer and a lot of effort and a lot of work and a lot of tangible actions that I took as far as that goes.

41:24

So I think for many people they have like a let go, let God kind of view of sanctification in general, which basically just, you know,

41:32

I describe as a Carrie Underwood approach to sanctification. The Jesus take the wheel approach, right?

41:41

Going way too fast, can't do this on my own, I'm letting go, you know, kind of thing. Some sound words, obviously.

41:49

Some sound words from a prophet of this age. Basically that's what it is, and that's what people have.

41:56

They have this passive view of sanctification to where it's just like, well, Lord, you've got to take it away. I've asked him a hundred times to take it away and he hasn't.

42:04

It's like, okay, well, what are you doing in life? Are you looking at porn every day on the

42:10

Internet? Is that what you're doing? You're looking at porn every day on the Internet and he's not taking away these desires?

42:15

Are you going to the gay nightclubs all the time? Are you watching the gay movies all the time?

42:21

What are you doing with your life, right? What actually are you doing? Do you have all these intimate gay friendships that you have that are constantly tempting you towards being gay?

42:31

Are there friendships you need to get rid of? Are there entertainment that you need to get rid of? Are you reading the

42:37

Bible ever? Are you renewing your mind ever? What do you do when you feel these? Are you trying to renew your mind?

42:42

Are you trying to renew your thoughts? Are you putting to death evil desires? What actually are you doing in the moment?

42:48

So I would be the first person to say yes. When sin becomes life -dominating, there's a bunch of things that you're going to have to do if you're going to get rid of this.

43:00

So yes, it's kind of like the guy and the girl who are struggling with sexual immorality, people who are in marriage, but then they're constantly putting themselves in horrible situations that are tempting to them, just saying,

43:12

Lord, please take away the loss. Please take away the loss.

43:18

It's like, well, you know what? You guys need to quit laying on the bed together. You're not helping.

43:26

Where are you guys when you're normally feeling this kind of temptation? Oh, the basement.

43:33

All right, well, maybe don't stay in the basement. In the basement with the door locked, half -clothed.

43:40

It's like, oh, big shock. You want victory from that, you may want to flee temptation, as the

43:46

Bible says. There's so many strategies that a person can use to try to overcome these things.

43:51

The point, though, is just to say that yes, if you have some simplistic notion of sanctification that just involves saying,

43:58

God, take it all away, carry underwood, then yeah, I get it. You don't experience any success for it. That makes sense.

44:04

Not surprising. But I would say that we know how that works in other areas of life, and we can kind of chuckle at it, but then we refuse to apply it with this area.

44:16

So there are those who would agree with you, Tim, and say, yes, homosexuality is wrong in practice, right?

44:29

They would add that caveat to it. In other words, sodomy is wrong or lesbian sex is wrong or something like that.

44:37

Or maybe even like homosexual kissing is wrong. Yeah, that aspect of it is wrong, but then it's not necessarily wrong to be gay, meaning, hey, internally

44:53

I'm attracted to the same sex. This person would say,

44:59

I'm attracted to the same sex, but I recognize that sodomy is wrong, for example.

45:12

And that kind of leads into a conversation about, which might be hard to try and have a whole conversation about this, but maybe we can answer the question, at least as it relates to homosexuality.

45:27

There's a lot, well, I don't know how large it is, but there's a group of people who would argue that to act on the temptation, their homosexual desires present would be sin for that person.

45:46

It makes God angry. He's not pleased with it. At the same time, they would say, hey, just because this person is being tempted internally does not mean they have sinned yet.

46:01

It'll be sin if they act on it. It'll be sin if they go and allow themselves to be sodomized or sodomize someone else or whatever.

46:11

But it's not sin for them to— They probably wouldn't want to use that word, though. Yeah, I doubt that.

46:17

Because that's mean sounding. That doesn't sound very nice, Harrison. Yeah, excuse me. That's a moral word.

46:23

That's a moral word. Moral condemnation. You don't want to go there. Keep on going. Excuse me for using the mean term.

46:32

I apologize. Right. But anyways, yeah, they would argue that it's not sin unless the person acts on it.

46:40

Or maybe even—I've seen some people who would even argue, hey, it's not even a sin to actually be in the homosexual relationship as long as they're celibate, right?

46:54

So is there any kind of biblical category for this idea?

46:59

Or is this just totally out of left field, completely untrue?

47:05

That's not coming from the Bible. Okay. Okay. I mean, like you're not—

47:11

So what you're describing is called the same -sex attraction

47:18

SSA Christian movement. And so there's been a movement within broader evangelicalism.

47:24

Sam Alberry, Rosaria Butterfield to some degree. More Sam Alberry, Jackie Hill Perry are arguing for the same -sex attracted

47:32

Christian as a legitimate category. Now Rosaria pushes against it a little bit. But then she's pretty sloppy with how she does it and is still accepting the basic premise.

47:41

But what's happened is—let me answer this in two phases. One, I'm going to tell you how that happened.

47:49

And then two, what does the Bible say about it? Okay? So how it's come about is essentially this is a problem that the psychologists have created for us in certain ways.

48:01

And Freud in particular. But this is a psychologist problem that has happened.

48:07

People already know what we think about them. Yeah. Well, hopefully—if not, go listen to the episode. But part of—so in the

48:14

DSM, basically homosexuality was—it used to be considered a mental disorder.

48:20

Okay? So like a mental disorder. So not a physical problem but a problem of thought and behavior that we describe in medical language.

48:29

So it sounds like it's some sort of physical brain problem or something like that. It used to be a mental disorder.

48:34

It used to be labeled as such in the DSM. So if someone commits murder, you say, hey, are they clinically insane?

48:42

Basically you're saying they have some sort of mental problem that they can't be held accountable for their actions. Well, homosexuality used to be viewed as that.

48:48

But then a bunch of homosexual activists took over the association—American

48:55

Association for Psychiatrics and all that. And so they took that over and then they basically lobbied to have—had a vote and changed it from a mental disorder to—so that it's no longer viewed that way.

49:09

Now, pedophilia is still viewed as a mental disorder in the DSM. But homosexuality, this mental disorder thing was removed.

49:17

But the problem with that though is that being—like if you think about step one, it's viewed as a mental disorder, right?

49:24

All right. So think about that. Now, what that means though is that this is an orientation which a person fundamentally can't help if that makes sense.

49:34

They can't help it. But then it has negative stigma attached with it.

49:40

It's not helpful or whatever else. But it's fundamentally an orientation that they can't help. It's something that they can't really be blamed for if that makes sense.

49:49

It's a mental disorder. It's just essentially—we're just matter or a complex machine.

49:54

It's a mental disorder. So when you think about it that way, like we have—we've viewed it that way for a long time.

50:01

And now the basic assumptions of psychology are that people are basically who they are, if that makes sense.

50:07

They're basically fixed in terms of their personality. You can't really expect much change as far as that goes because people are who they are.

50:13

So then whether or not you're talking about some sort of personality test that they take or you talk about things like that, there's constant— people have been researching this stuff for years.

50:28

Is there some sort of gay gene and everything else? But because we used to think it was a mental disorder, you think, well, people were born this way.

50:36

Maybe it's genetic and it's this mental problem and everything else. Whatever it is, it's just this fixed orientation that a person can't overcome as far as that goes.

50:46

Now when you take it out of the mental disorder category, now it's just an alternative lifestyle. Does that make sense?

50:52

But all the assumptions were that it was some sort of fixed part of their personality. So then there's plenty of people who say, hey, you know what?

50:58

I was always different and I didn't know why and I can't ever remember being attracted to women and whatever else.

51:06

So then their label for all that is, well, I was born this way. This is who I've always been. At some point they realize in some tearful moment that, oh,

51:14

I must be gay. Then once they latch on to that as a label, then that's who they are and this orientation is something that's fixed and immovable and can't be changed and everything else.

51:26

So then you enter the same -sex attracted Christian movement and essentially what's happening is we've sanctified this label.

51:33

It's just this homosexual label, right? I don't even like saying homosexual because it basically gives up the game, if that makes sense.

51:45

What do you mean? If you use the term homosexual, you are giving up the whole game. You're basically saying that there is a category of individual who – like hey,

51:53

I'm heterosexual. Who are you? You're homosexual, right? So I'm heterosexual. You're homosexual.

51:58

It's like, well, no, we're both human beings and you're a pervert and I'm not, right?

52:06

So like if we use biblical language, you're a pervert. Where did the word pervert come about?

52:12

Well, the word pervert came about in that basically one of the

52:17

Hebrew words for sin is essentially – you have like missing the mark and then you also have this notion of being crooked or corrupted as far as that goes.

52:28

Like one of the Hebrew words for sin and so this idea of your way is perverted before the

52:34

Lord. Your way is crooked. It's not straight. Like that's where these words came from and so now that's become pejorative and like how dare you and all that.

52:44

But then it came from a biblical worldview which says this is a perversion of the natural order.

52:50

It's not just an alternative state. Does that make sense? Like it's a perversion.

52:55

So we're all human beings who are made to be attracted to members of the opposite sex.

53:02

But then this is an individual who has a way that is perverted. They've been given over to iniquity to the point now to where their desire – members of the same sex have been given over to a level of depravity that is uncommon as far as that goes.

53:17

That's why they are where they are. Maybe they were introduced to it at a young age by some older perverted man, whatever.

53:25

But the point there is just to say in even using the homosexual language, you're giving up the game. You're basically conceding the point that there is such a thing as a homosexual orientation, which is a fixed, immutable part of a person's personality or identity that fundamentally is fixed and can't change.

53:48

So I try to use words like sodomite or more colorful terms like pervert in order to keep myself from giving away the game as far as that goes.

54:03

But anyway, so the first part of the question I'm trying to answer is just the question of how did we get here?

54:09

We got here essentially because we accepted this idea of a homosexual orientation.

54:14

First it was a mental disorder and now it's just an alternative orientation as far as that goes. Now you have the church who has come along and basically they – we don't know how to counsel people out of it very well because we don't know how to counsel people out of any sin very well.

54:29

That's the problem. So that's the problem. So then it's just, well, they prayed and didn't go away.

54:35

So maybe that's just who they are. But the Bible clearly speaks against sodomy and they wouldn't want to use that term because that sounds mean to them even though it's an accurate description.

54:46

Like it's a moral category instead of a psychological category. So just don't act on it and that's fine.

54:54

Now the problem with that though biblically – all right. So how did it come about? That's the answer in part. But then like the problem with that biblically, what does the

55:03

Bible say? Is that the Bible says that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart, he's committed adultery with her in her heart.

55:09

Like sins aren't just like the result of behavior. So it's not just enough to fail to keep the behavior and this is the whole point of the

55:16

Sermon on the Mount. This is the whole point of what Jesus came to do.

55:21

Jesus didn't come to overturn the law but to show all the ways in which people were violating the law in their very mind, in their very heart, in their very affections.

55:30

And so it's not enough just to not be a murderer if you hate people in your heart, right? It's the same kind of thing.

55:37

Now you take it a step further and you actually murder someone. Then you're guilty of a crime.

55:43

But it's the same kind of thing that's going on. So what's happening here is this set, this pull, this attraction towards members of the same sect is viewed as a neutral orientation that a person can't help.

55:58

And that's done for many reasons. So part of it is done because there's, as I said, a stunted view of sanctification.

56:04

But part of why that's happened is because people are making some sort of distinction between sin and temptation.

56:10

Basically, hey, you can't help it if you're tempted to sin as long as you don't act on it kind of thing.

56:17

Does that make sense? But then the problem with this thing at every level is it just doesn't work with any other sin.

56:25

That's the problem. You're asking us to suspend all logic and reason and treat one sin in a different way than others if that makes sense.

56:38

So just a few examples of what I mean. I mean everyone would think – everyone still for whatever reason as it relates to pedophilia would think that a person who desires to have sex with children, that desire itself, that pull is fundamentally wrong and immoral.

56:54

Wouldn't you agree? Everyone would think that. Everyone would think that. Now if you want to get on the animal rights bandwagon, everyone would think that a person who has a desire to tie an animal down or throw a puppy in a wood chipper or torture and experiment, take hot pokers and stab an animal over and over and over again.

57:17

Everyone would think that not only would it be wrong to act on that, that there's something fundamentally wrong with you if you want to act on it, right?

57:26

I mean even Christians. I would say even Christians with a biblical view should be horrified by that, those kind of desires.

57:33

They're wrong. We know intuitively with every other category.

57:41

Let's say that, hey, I want to kill you and take your wife, right? That desire, that covetousness is wrong.

57:50

That desire is wrong and that's – it's not just – it would be great if I don't act on it. Please don't act on it.

57:57

However, the fact that you want to do it is a serious problem. Every time

58:02

I go to your house, I just want to steal things from you and take everything that's in your house and I'm plotting ways to do it and I'm just spending the whole time saying, don't take it, don't take it, don't take it.

58:12

I'm sure that it would – it's better if I overcome it and resist it. Yes. But at the same time, there's something wrong with me.

58:21

That's my experience. Most people, that's not their experience as they go to their neighbor's house and everything else. So the problem is that as you read through the

58:29

Bible, the Bible wants us to – Colossians 3, 5. Put to death what is earthly in you, sexual immorality, impurity, passion.

58:36

It says evil desires and covetousness, which is idolatry. It's not enough just to change your behavior.

58:41

You need to change the desires themselves. That orientation, that pull towards iniquity is wrong.

58:46

It's evidence of sin in and of itself, if that makes sense. Yeah.

58:57

So essentially, it's not enough to just say, yeah, it's wrong to act on it.

59:03

If we're going to take Jesus at his word, if we're going to take what he said seriously on the

59:09

Sermon on the Mount, then we have to admit that being gay, even just being tempted with the attraction of someone of the same sex as you is sinful, even if you don't act on it.

59:29

It's a sinful desire that you're experiencing that requires forgiveness from God.

59:37

Is that kind of a fair summary of everything? Yeah, that's a fair summary. Now what people – like the way they try to get out of it biblically is they try to say, hey, well, you know,

59:48

Jesus, the Bible says, was tempted in every way as we are but without sin. So it wasn't

59:54

Jesus. So essentially if Jesus is tempted in every way that we are yet without sin, then doesn't that mean that he was – is it a sin to be tempted, right?

01:00:07

That's the pushback. So that's where the pushback is coming from. So it's like, hey, I can't help that you're tempted.

01:00:14

You can't help that you're tempted with evil as long as you don't act on it. It's fine. I'm sure that you've heard plenty of people say essentially that, right?

01:00:23

You can't help your temptations as long as you fight them, right? Yeah, yeah. Now the problem with that though is that that's naive and it's a stunted understanding of how the

01:00:35

Bible actually works. Now with respect to bodily weakness, Jesus was tempted in every way that we are yet without sin, meaning

01:00:43

Jesus knows what it's like to be hungry, knows what it's like to be thirsty, knows what it's like to be tired, knows what it's like to be sick, hurt, everything else.

01:00:55

He's gone through the whole gamut of human experience. He knows that. But that passage is not saying that Jesus, every time he walked past a little boy, wanted to sodomize that little boy and had to turn from it, right?

01:01:07

So the problem is we're equivocating on what temptation actually means. Now in the Bible, there are two types of temptations that happen.

01:01:15

There's what you call external temptations and internal temptations, if that makes sense. So an external temptation to sin is an offer to sin, okay?

01:01:30

So imagine that you're driving down the road in a shady part of town and some gaudy woman with not enough clothes who looks like she's addicted to meth or whatever comes up to you and offers you a good time or something like that, right, for some money.

01:01:48

I'm sure that most people would look at that and not feel any kind of pull whatsoever.

01:01:56

At least hopefully. Hopefully, hopefully. You have to be pretty low to want to go there. I mean now

01:02:01

I've lived in the world and I've had plenty of gay guys hit on me before.

01:02:10

And I will tell you, they're offering iniquity to me. And I know that you've described to me a scenario where a guy you're trying to evangelize touched your ear in a suggestive way.

01:02:33

He gave you an offer as far as that goes. But I mean

01:02:38

I think the standard red -blooded American male is not even remotely tempted by that.

01:02:45

In fact, it's repulsed by that, right? So like is that – were you tempted? The question is were you tempted?

01:02:51

Well, yes and no, right? You were tempted meaning an external offer was given to you to commit iniquity.

01:02:58

I've had gay guys want to be my boyfriend or whatever and give me offers.

01:03:03

The problem is I have an external temptation but there's no internal temptation whatsoever that's happening, right?

01:03:11

There's no pull. There's no pull that says, oh, I kind of like this. Try that. It's like, oh, gross man.

01:03:17

Get out of here. No, I'm good. Don't ever talk to me like that again or I'll beat you up. I'm threatening assault.

01:03:26

Don't nobody talk to me like that. Kind of thing. Oh, man.

01:03:34

But no. So like there's internal temptations and there's external temptations. So an internal temptation is – an external temptation is simply an offer.

01:03:42

So Jesus has received the whole gamut of external temptations I assume. So Satan says to Jesus, you're the son of God.

01:03:50

You can throw yourself off this temple because it's written. God will bear you up unless you dash your foot against a stone.

01:03:58

He's given an external offer of temptation obviously. But then there's no, oh, man.

01:04:05

I'd really like to see if God is going to take care of me here. I kind of want to do that and see what it's like. I'll give you the whole kingdoms of the world if you bow down and worship me.

01:04:12

Oh, man. I'd really like everything else. Maybe I should bow down. No. There's no internal temptation but there's an external temptation in the way that it's described.

01:04:21

So that's what's happening within this SSA kind of movement which is essentially saying that people are not only – like what's happening is they're equivocating and they're collapsing all temptation into the same kind of rubric.

01:04:35

But then there's two different types of temptation. But James tells us that each man is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires essentially.

01:04:46

So there is an internal temptation, a luring and enticement that comes from a sinful heart. Jesus didn't have a sinful heart.

01:04:53

Jesus' heart wasn't pulling him to rape women or to engage in homosexual sex or anything else.

01:04:59

He didn't have the internal temptation. He had the external. But then when you have that internal temptation, you have your heart that's pulling you, the wicked old man, the wretched old man that you are in the language of Paul that's pulling you towards evil.

01:05:11

Yes, you need to resist it. But the fact that it's there is the kind of thing that you say, hey,

01:05:17

Lord, will you forgive me? I'm so wicked. Please forgive me for the wicked desires of my heart and please help me not to act on them.

01:05:24

Now is it a success if you don't act on it? Yes. But what you're trying to get to is where you stop desiring it, right?

01:05:35

So you're not just an innocent person who's just Satan putting thoughts in your mind that you can't help.

01:05:40

It's like, no, those are coming from your own sinful, wicked heart. Does that make sense? Yeah, and it kind of leads me into my next question, which really, you know, we already talked some about the people who say that they don't want to be attracted to the same sex anymore.

01:06:01

They think God says it's wrong and yet they can't really seem to overcome it for whatever reason.

01:06:11

And you've already talked about that. But I wanted to go back to that topic for a second and basically just ask you, you know, in light of all of these people who really seem to not be able to overcome the sin, even when they realize it's wrong, is it possible to overcome this sin?

01:06:39

Is it possible to be someone who is attracted to the same sex, have someone confront you and say, hey, this is wrong and you are going to go to hell if you don't repent of this and turn away from it.

01:06:50

Is it possible for that person to actually repent from that sin and have, you know, like a final kind of victory over it where there is no more temptation for that person?

01:07:05

And I'm going to ask you a second question and you can kind of just go, you know, answer them back to back for me.

01:07:14

If repentance is possible, what exactly does it look like for that person in practice,

01:07:24

I guess? Does that make sense? I think there's numerous examples of people who are doing that very thing, who have repented of that pull in a pretty fundamental way, who refuse to identify themselves as being homosexuals or gay

01:07:44

Christians and, you know, who are not trying to engage in celibate, gay, lifelong, committed, covenantal friendships with people and who, you know, ultimately basically repudiate that to the other most, get married, have kids and move on with their life and talk about exactly that.

01:08:05

I mean, the Bible explicitly says in 1 Corinthians that,

01:08:11

Do you not know the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? This is 1 Corinthians 6, 9. Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor the idolaters, nor the adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor borrowers, nor swindlers who inherit the kingdom of God.

01:08:25

And it says in verse 11, And such were some of you. Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of Jesus Christ by the

01:08:34

Spirit of our God. So there's, you know, the scripture itself testifies to the transformative power of the gospel that God can take, you know, any individual affected by any sin and fundamentally clean them up.

01:08:48

And there's plenty of stories of individuals who have done just that. And the problem is that essentially once a

01:08:54

Christian, I mean, you know, I'm thinking of, you know, professors at Southeastern Theological Seminary who basically were formerly gay and trying to, you know, were basically fired because they were trying to teach that the

01:09:10

Bible can fundamentally change a person with this set of sin that's become kind of a heresy.

01:09:16

But that's happened in the Christian world and the secular world. We have no allowance for those kind of actual conversion stories because we've said that they can't happen.

01:09:24

But then, you know, there's plenty of people where they've actually happened to. It's the problem, right? So there's plenty of people that actually fit that.

01:09:32

Now, I mean, I think part of what's happened though is in your—the way you worded it, there's some lack of—I don't know how to put it.

01:09:48

There's—the way you worded it, you asked is there— does the Bible anticipate a kind of scenario essentially where a person can repent of this in some sort of final way and never again experience internal temptation again?

01:10:04

Is that kind of how you asked it? Yeah, have like a final kind of victory over it. Okay. All right.

01:10:11

I think part of the way that that's framed is it's framed in such a strong way as to maybe give evidence to the other side that conversion is not—conversion therapy is harmful and dangerous and not possible.

01:10:32

What I mean by that is to say let's deal with another kind of sin for a second, okay?

01:10:38

So like let's say that we're going to talk about a sin like lust in more of a heterosexual way, right?

01:10:48

Well, is it possible for God to like utterly remove lust from a person's heart, period?

01:10:58

What would you say? Yes. Yes. Now in practice, does he seem to do that?

01:11:05

No. Okay. So meaning it's like there's—for most people, it's kind of a longer road.

01:11:14

Right. Okay. So think about like the person who's engaged in premarital sex or something like that and they want like God just to take the lust away.

01:11:26

They want God to just take it away, just take it away, just take it away. Then they get married. They have a family but then that's still kind of there to some degree.

01:11:36

They walk past, see something they shouldn't see and ask God, hey, forgive me for the pole and everything else.

01:11:42

Now do those reoccurrences come few and far between for the sanctified

01:11:48

Christian? Sure. Is it possible to get to a point where it's just like you're absolutely offended by that grossed out?

01:11:53

Absolutely. Is that a testimony of many people? Absolutely. But then for a lot of people, it's kind of—it's a thing that they actually struggle with.

01:12:04

Some people, they struggle with it in quotes but that just means they give in every time they feel tempted. For some people, they actually struggle with it and they're actually gaining some success.

01:12:14

It's just something that's worked out every time, right? All right. So with the idea of the homosexual temptation,

01:12:21

I'm sure that a person who runs down that track for decades of their life, they run down that track.

01:12:31

There's the kind of person who at some point in some sort of decisive way says, I hate this. I'm sick of it.

01:12:37

I can't stand it and now I'm just grossed and repelled by it. I never want to go back there again, period, right?

01:12:45

Anytime there might be some slight pole that way, they're like, that is disgusting.

01:12:50

That is gross. I never want to go back there. Please forgive me for ever going down that road, period, right?

01:12:57

So they're dealing with it at such an early stage to the point to where maybe that little wistful nostalgia kind of comes up every once in a while.

01:13:06

But instantaneously, they're attacking it. It's gone. Functionally, it's eradicated. Sure, I think that the

01:13:13

Bible does put that forward as if that is like an expected thing.

01:13:19

At the same time, I would say that there's – what's happened though, what's happening and the problem that's happening is that there's any number of people when they feel that slightest pole, they want it to be gone away completely and instead of like engaging in the process of killing it by rebuking those thoughts, rebuking those feelings, asking

01:13:43

God's forgiveness, and quickly and decisively, what they do is every time that faint stirring shows up again, it's just evidence to them of this homosexual orientation that's fixed.

01:13:57

It's immovable. It's permanent. Does that make sense? And so because they're looking at it that way, then anytime that thing surfaces, it's just like this is just who

01:14:07

I am. It's just who I am. It won't go away. I can't get it to stop. It's like, well, look, it's who you were, right?

01:14:15

Like if you're a Christian, it's who you were and now you have to put to death this thing and you have to pursue sanctification.

01:14:22

And that thing might periodically come up again, but there's a solution to that in the gospel.

01:14:28

You rebuke it. That's not who you are anymore. Your identity is fundamentally changed. So you don't have to just live out this hopeless script anymore just because you feel the faintest stirrings of temptations and just go, oh, er, woe is me and everything else.

01:14:42

Does that make sense? Yeah. So now is it possible to just never, ever again feel that?

01:14:47

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. But, you know, anytime you spend 20 years committing, running down a particular path, just imagine something like dieting, right?

01:15:05

Imagine something like dieting where, you know, you just – I would tell you just in that area, like drinking a regular drink, like the thought of drinking like a sugar drink kind of grosses me out now, right?

01:15:23

But at first it didn't. At first it was like I had to say no. But now it's just like I don't want to – it's like drinking a – like …

01:15:32

I can feel my teeth dissolving in my mouth. Yes. I mean at a certain point when you resist the devil, he will flee from you at a certain point.

01:15:41

I mean that's just kind of a trivial example. But just think about it. Like at a certain point, at first it's just like I just need the fix.

01:15:47

I need the caffeine. I need the sugar. I need it. And then it feels criminal. But after a little bit, you resist the devil, he will flee from you.

01:15:54

Even with something like that, it's just like – now it's like, hey, drinking a regular straight up Mountain Dew.

01:16:00

It's like – it's kind of gross, man. I don't want to get a cavity.

01:16:07

It's not satisfying. It's just gross. So I don't even feel really the slightest pull anymore. So I think people can get there with this subject.

01:16:15

But there's a process typically to get there and it's not some decisive moment for the most part.

01:16:22

It's a process of turning away from it. And you can't like identify this like pull as just irrefutable evidence that you are who you are if that makes sense.

01:16:33

All right. So what was the second aspect of your question? Yeah. So the second part of the question was more practically, what exactly does it look like to repent of the sin of same -sex attraction?

01:16:49

What exactly does that look like put into practice? For the person who's wanting to flee from it.

01:16:58

Yeah. Well, so the first – the answer to the first question is yes, a Christian could expect – should expect a confident expectation of victory.

01:17:06

But it's a lot of work and may not happen overnight and it might take some time and you can't understand the faintest stirring of temptation to be just irrefutable proof of failure, right?

01:17:18

And hopelessness. But then what do you do? Well, I would say that with any life -dominating sin, like any life -dominating sin, you need what in the counseling world we call total restructuring of your life.

01:17:32

So like a person who's snared – we'll just talk about drugs for a second.

01:17:37

A person who's snared in a lifestyle of drug use, what do you need to do? In order to get out of that, you may need to move, right?

01:17:47

Like if you're living in an area where people are just constantly trying to give you drugs and free drugs and you may need to move and you may need to change your friendships.

01:17:57

If your friends are always trying to pull you back and pull you back, you might need to delete – change your number, change your phone number if you want to be sanctified.

01:18:07

Change your phone number, not give it to them. Relocate, get a new job, right?

01:18:13

So there's behaviors that you have to take. It's not all about behavior, but there's behaviors.

01:18:19

Like you might need to change your job. You might need to change your friends. You might need to change your phone numbers. You might need to change your location if that makes sense.

01:18:27

So the Bible talks a lot about the influences of friends in the

01:18:33

Bible. Proverbs tells us to be careful about who we're friends with. There's the kind of friendships that are only going to lead you, to tempt you, right?

01:18:43

So you want to get done with drug use. Let's talk about drugs. You might need to change your phone.

01:18:49

You might need to change your location. You might need to change your job. You might need to change your friends.

01:18:55

Not only that. So there are things that you need to put off like that, right? So you need to flee from temptation.

01:19:02

The Bible says resist the devil. You flee from him. When Joseph was offered sex from Potiphar's wife, he ran, got out of there.

01:19:09

So a lot of people are just trying to stay and bear with it and what they need to be doing is running. So you think about something like that.

01:19:16

Like you need to run. You need to flee. You need to remove yourself from temptation. You need to radically amputate. So there are things you need to put off that, you know, big lifestyle changes.

01:19:27

A lot of times people don't want to do that and they're back in it. They're back in it because they don't want to take the steps they need to take to actually have the change stick.

01:19:35

So you have that. But not only that, you need to go to church, right? Read your Bible on a regular basis.

01:19:41

You need to pray on a regular basis. So you need to start adopting new habits. So you have like behaviors.

01:19:48

So you have put off behaviors like that. So the same thing is true with sodomy, right? Or lesbianism.

01:19:53

Like the thing is like if all your friends are gay and lesbians and speaking in that world, you need to develop new friendships.

01:20:00

You may need to move. You may need to change your phone number. You may need like all the same things, right? You may need to move. Change your friendships.

01:20:05

Change your phone numbers. Change your job. Like you can't work at the gay bar anymore.

01:20:11

You know, if you want to – I mean I'm just – we laugh about that. But the problem is that people who are struggling with these kind of things, they don't make those changes.

01:20:21

And they're constantly being pulled and sucked back into that kind of lifestyle. Does that make sense? So you need to put yourself in a good church, the kind of church that's not going to enable you.

01:20:32

That's not going to baby you. That's not going to tolerate the sinful set of desires.

01:20:39

So put yourself in a good church. Start actively reading the Bible. Start actively praying.

01:20:45

Like as far as that goes. And not just Lord, take it all away. Take it all away. Actually praying the way the

01:20:50

Bible wants you to pray. And I'm not saying don't pray that. But just – there's work that you need to do.

01:20:58

So what is a gay person doing? I think there's behaviors that I've talked about they need to put off.

01:21:04

There's a lot of mannerisms they need to put off. So a lot of the effeminate way of communicating, the flamboyant dress and mannerisms, like the acting like women.

01:21:21

They need some man to come along in their life and say, hey, quit talking like a queer, right?

01:21:27

Straighten up. And part of that straighten up is like meaning. You have the

01:21:33

Jordan Peterson advice of stand up straight with your shoulders back, right? Hey, you need to learn how to walk like a man.

01:21:40

You need to learn how to talk like a man. You need to learn how to sound like a man. You need to learn how to act like a man, right?

01:21:46

So if you're constantly flagging that you're effeminate everywhere you go, don't be surprised if you get certain offers as far as that goes, right?

01:21:56

So there are behaviors that need to change. You need to put off effeminacy.

01:22:01

The Bible says the effeminate will not inherit the kingdom of God. Put on masculinity. So there are traits that you need to put on that are not neutral.

01:22:10

So those are all behaviors, right? Put off behaviors. Put on behaviors. But then you also have to deal with what's going on in your heart.

01:22:17

So that involves identifying the kind of temptations that you're actually feeling. So when you feel tempted towards exotomy, what's happening right there?

01:22:26

And oftentimes it's boredom for people. So boredom is a trigger. So they don't have anything productive to do in their life.

01:22:32

They have too much time on their hands. One of the things that Hitler said in Mein Kampf, which is funny. You didn't know you were going to get a

01:22:43

Mein Kampf reference in this episode, did you? I'm going there. I read that just to, you know, see.

01:22:51

Was it because you were bored? I wanted to understand, you know, the mind of one of the most paragons of wickedness.

01:23:03

A paragon of wickedness. One of the evil people imaginable. But one of the things that he did with Germany was that he – basically you have the public education system that he started.

01:23:17

And one of the main emphasis of that was athletics. There was an emphasis of athletics in that.

01:23:23

And part of that is because young men have strong sexual desires and then they don't have – and they have a lot of energy if that makes sense.

01:23:32

But they have no healthy outlet for it. But one of the things that he found was that if you make men like tire themselves out in sports and athletics and everything else, then a lot of the unwed pregnancies go down.

01:23:47

Does that make sense? So that's just sanctified. I mean that's not sanctified on his part.

01:23:54

But like a Christian could look at that. And like the Bible does talk about whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.

01:24:00

And you read through the Proverbs. You see there's a lot of temptations that come with being sluggard and lazy. And with a person who has way too much time on their hands, like they don't have anything productive to do.

01:24:09

They're not wearing themselves out in the work that God has given them to do. Like then they open themselves up to temptation.

01:24:15

And so it's not in the Bible, but an idle mind is the devil's playground or whatever.

01:24:21

Idle hands is devil. There's some truth to that even though that's not a scriptural thing.

01:24:28

So anyways, I mean find something productive to do. Find something helpful to do in your life as far as that goes.

01:24:34

Identify the temptations that you're having. When are they coming from, right? What are the things?

01:24:40

What are the triggers? Then in the moment, you're asking yourself, what do I want right now that I'm not getting? What do

01:24:45

I want? What is the desire here? And often like sexual temptation, even deviant sexual temptation, is coming from desires that are not necessarily bad, right?

01:24:57

So I just want companionship. Because I'm effeminate, women don't like me anymore. And big shock there.

01:25:05

Men are the only ones who... I've trained myself to be attractive to... I've trained myself to be attracted to a predatory older man or something like that who's going to take advantage of me.

01:25:20

But here's the thing. There's some sort of desire for companionship that's at the root of that that says, hey, if I don't have companionship, if I don't have love in some sort of form, even a deviant form will do.

01:25:31

If I don't have sex, then I'm not going to be okay. And you have to identify the desires there and submit those desires to God and ask

01:25:39

God to give you healthy outlets for those desires and everything else. And so you have to renew your mind.

01:25:45

You have to remind yourself of the Scriptures. No temptation is overtaking you, but it's common to man. God's faithful. He won't allow you to be tempted beyond your ability.

01:25:51

But with that temptation will provide a way of escape that you may bear. But anyways, the point here is to say you have to renew your mind and change your behavior and exercise the methods of grace, the means of grace that God's given you, which is church and spiritual friendships and everything else.

01:26:08

I mean you need a comprehensive solution. There's no one answer to that. That's why I'm giving you a bunch. But you need to do a lot of things, right?

01:26:15

There's no one key to sanctification. There's a bunch of them, and you've got to do a lot. And the part is that the problem is that someone does like one little thing and everything doesn't change.

01:26:24

And it's like, well, what's going on? It's like you need to start somewhere and start making changes and keep on going and keep on going and keep on going.

01:26:33

And in a few years you'll be like, how did I ever go there? Does that make sense? And no,

01:26:40

I think that's a good response. And I really only have—I mean

01:26:46

I have a lot more questions I could ask, but there's one more question that I want to ask before we wrap this episode up.

01:26:56

And essentially it's going back to this bill that we opened the episode with. So this bill that was passed in Canada that's essentially saying you can no longer tell someone to stop being gay, right?

01:27:10

And I think you and I would both agree that essentially what this bill is doing is, number one, obviously it's asking us to deny the

01:27:21

Bible, deny that the Bible tells us the truth, right?

01:27:26

But then the other thing it's asking us to do is it's actually— and I don't know how many people would come to this conclusion on their own, certainly not non -Christians, certainly not unbelievers.

01:27:39

They would never come to this conclusion. But by having Canada ask their—well, not ask their citizens, tell their citizens you will be punished if you speak out against homosexuality, essentially what they're doing is they're asking

01:27:53

Christians to not love their neighbors anymore, right? They're asking Christians to not tell their neighbors the truth that what will happen if they continue to live in unrepentant sin is they will spend eternity in hell and there's no escape from God's punishment, you know, once you're in hell, once he's sent you there.

01:28:16

So I say all that to ask you, you know, I think it seems pretty clear that we are supposed to tell

01:28:26

Christians— I mean, I'm sorry, not tell Christians. We are supposed to tell people who are gay, who are attracted to the same sex that they need to stop.

01:28:39

But when you add in a bill like this from the government, we know obviously, you know, and even if you weren't aware, the last two years should have made it aware that there are actually verses in the

01:28:53

Bible that tell us that we are supposed to obey our government, right?

01:29:00

So when the government starts introducing a bill like this one that's essentially outlawing speaking out against homosexuality, what is the

01:29:11

Christian supposed to do at that point? They're basically given an ultimatum saying, hey, you either obey what the government has said or you continue to speak out against this thing that you know

01:29:24

God says is wrong. So what is the Christian supposed to do? Are they supposed to respect what the government is saying kind of like because of verses like the passage in Romans 13 or are they supposed to ignore these?

01:29:39

What should the Christian be doing? I think part of what we need to do just related to just picking it, the phrasing you said, you know, it's obviously we should be telling gay people they need to stop.

01:29:53

I would just say, well, I think we need to – I think if we accept that gay is a thing that we've lost the argument and so I think it would be better for us to use if we can and it's very difficult to do so but just use moral categories.

01:30:09

You're not a gay person. You're an individual who is tempted internally towards sodomy or if you're talking about a man.

01:30:21

That's not who you are. You're not gay. You're a person tempted towards this. If you act on it, then you're a sodomite or something like that.

01:30:30

So you're telling them to quit engaging in the behavior and you're telling them to repent of the pole essentially is what you're doing.

01:30:37

But then what if the government, Romans 13, tells us to – what if the government says, hey, you're not allowed to do that anymore.

01:30:45

What do you do? I think you're in a clear situation where Peter says we must obey

01:30:50

God rather than men. If you charge us to stop speaking whatever the

01:30:57

Bible tells us to speak, at a certain point you just say, hey, I'm here and there's a master that's above you and whatever authority you have doesn't extend to the authority

01:31:09

God has given me. The authority God has given to me is to declare the whole counsel of God. Honestly, you don't have the authority to tell me that I'm not allowed to speak what the

01:31:20

Bible says as far as that goes. I don't think it's a very complicated moral calculation as far as that goes.

01:31:26

I don't think it's a very – this is just a clear example of a situation where the government has overreached.

01:31:35

I think the problem is you're living in a society that is funny with all the lockdowns and everything else that have happened over the past few years.

01:31:43

When I was in seminary, I think we talked about this. I mean essentially you have all the pastors for years and years who were asked, hey, at what point should you disobey the government?

01:31:54

The time was, well, if they tell you you can't go to church, they tell you you can't evangelize or if they tell you – the answer has always even been added to that.

01:32:05

If they tell you you can't speak against homosexuality or something, then you just say, I'm sorry. You don't have the authority.

01:32:11

But then what's going to happen is if that does happen in America, we'll see who are the individuals with courage and who aren't.

01:32:21

That's maybe where Canada is at and we should be praying for them because this will reveal the state of the pastors there.

01:32:28

What kind of pastors are you? Are you the pastors who are willing to throw – the kind of guys who are willing to get thrown in jail?

01:32:36

Are you going to rejoice when you're counted worthy to suffer for the name of Christ or at the moment that it looks like you may have to suffer, you're going to run with your tail in between your legs and say it's not loving and all that?

01:32:47

I think we're in that – we may be in that scenario soon. Hopefully not, Lord willing not.

01:32:53

But if we are, then he wouldn't be unjust for putting us in it. But if we are, then we'll know very quickly who's who as far as that goes.

01:33:03

Yeah. So we spent about an hour and a half talking about this.

01:33:12

So hopefully for most people it's probably pretty clear by now. But just in case it's not for some people, what's the answer in terms of should

01:33:22

Christians counsel gays to straighten up and marry a member of the opposite sex?

01:33:30

What's your answer to that? I think what's complicated about that is like the second part of that is – and we may not have talked about this.

01:33:41

I almost kind of forgot about the second half. Yeah, the second half of that is the thing that we might not have addressed yet.

01:33:47

And so it's one thing to – I think it's one thing to say, okay, straighten up or whatever, right?

01:33:55

Now, what Rosario Butterfield and Jackie Hill Perry and Sam Alroy, what they find so mortally offensive by the idea of straighten up is they're engaging in a straw man and they're basically saying – like what you'll hear with these former gay people who are put forward as experts on the subject now.

01:34:15

What you'll hear is like some sort of straw man condemnation of the entire project as if Christianity is being reduced in some simplistic way to a message that heterosexuality is godliness, right?

01:34:30

And so one of the things they'll say over and over and over again ad nauseum is heterosexuality is not godliness is what they'll say.

01:34:37

It's like, well, huh? What do you mean? I know what you mean.

01:34:45

I know what you mean. I know – yes, okay. There are heterosexual people who are not godly. Sure. Sure.

01:34:52

Yes. But homosexuality is obviously ungodly and is the kind of sin that will exclude you from the kingdom of God.

01:35:03

So it's kind of like saying – like if you have – like we don't yet have the reverse word of pedophilia, right?

01:35:13

But if you counsel like pedophiles to quit desiring to rape children or something like that, and someone comes along and says like adultphilia is not godliness, right?

01:35:27

It's like, well, that's an exercise in missing the point. Like we're not – who said it was?

01:35:33

Who's saying it was? We're just condemning a sin that's a sin and telling them to turn from it and flee from it and repent of it because part of the message of the gospel is repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, right?

01:35:45

Repent. Like here's the thing. So we're encouraging them to repent and it does no good to say, well, yeah, well, heterosexual people are sinners too.

01:35:52

It's like, well, obviously, yeah, yeah. But we're going to tell the heterosexual people or normal people there isn't –

01:35:58

I mean everyone is heterosexual. Like there's no different orientations like that.

01:36:04

Like here's the thing. We're going to tell them to repent of every sin they commit to and all the ones they desire to commit to. So – and it is godliness to repent of sin, isn't it?

01:36:13

Right? So like that's what they say. So the thing is, yes, I think we should counsel people to repent of not only the sins they commit but the sins they desire to commit and the pulls that they feel towards sin.

01:36:25

But then does that necessarily entail – does that necessarily entail that the homosexual should straighten up and marry a member of the opposite sex, right?

01:36:37

And yes, it does. Like it does. Absolutely it does. Explain that a little bit.

01:36:45

Well, if – you know, homosexuality is not some fixed immovable part of a person's orientation.

01:36:51

Like it's some thing that's unable to be changed or anything else. Then if you take away that as if it's a reality, then the reality is actually that god tells mankind to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it.

01:37:06

That's god's instruction to mankind is to be fruitful, to be multiplied, to fill the earth and subdue it.

01:37:13

And so that's not just a command that, well, unless you feel attracted to men, right?

01:37:18

If you're a man who feels attracted to men, well, it's like, well, put to death what is earthly in you, this evil desire, right? And so the

01:37:24

Bible gives you a put -off dynamic and there's a put -on dynamic. You have to put off the wicked desires, put on the good desires.

01:37:30

If a man is burning sexually like with desire, the

01:37:36

Bible says it's better to marry than burn because marriage is meant to be a – marriage is fundamentally meant for human beings to be a help in dealing with sexual immorality.

01:37:47

That's why it's there. So the Bible tells a couple, you know, don't deprive one another except for a limited time for the purpose of prayer.

01:37:53

But then come together quickly lest you be tempted because of your weakness, right?

01:37:58

So sexual expression in the context of covenant marriage is meant to be a source of safety and protection from an individual.

01:38:07

And part of how you put off the evil desire is to put on the good desire. Now immediately when you say that kind of thing, like the only way –

01:38:14

I mean the reason why that feels so offensive is because like what everyone has basically accepted in some sort of mindless way is this homosexual identity is some sort of identity that is fixed and unmovable.

01:38:26

And basically what they hear you to be saying when you say something along those lines is it's like – well, you're telling a person basically just – well, you're not sexually attracted to women.

01:38:41

So you're just going to have to hold your nose and bear with it and do whatever you can, right?

01:38:49

But then I think the whole like bisexual phenomenon and everything else, we're playing by different rules at different points in time.

01:39:00

And so what are the rules? Is sexual orientation fixed and unmovable like the homosexual calculus or is it like the new – with all the bisexual stuff, is it just fluid?

01:39:16

Are you sexually fluid and it just changes and everything else? And I think the reality is that God made individuals to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex.

01:39:25

And if you're not, then you need to deal with whatever issues that you need to deal with, put off whatever evil sets of desires that you need to deal with and it's possible to actually do that.

01:39:35

And I would tell you that you need to pursue the opposite of that.

01:39:40

I would say that like probably it would be unwise for the practicing sodomite to convert and then the next day, if he has zero attraction to women the next day, just go get married at Vegas or something like that.

01:40:00

In order to hopefully trial by fire, you might want to try to work on cleaning yourself up a little bit before you do that.

01:40:08

But at the same time, like yes, I think contrary to what

01:40:14

Butterfield and Hill Perry and Sam Albury are saying, there is more hope that such were some of you and you can put to death these evil orientations and that you can actually learn to repudiate it and you can actually function in a normal way.

01:40:27

And the lie of the – the homosexual lie is essentially you can't. I think you have to trust by faith that God can cleanse you to the uttermost as far as that goes.

01:40:37

Part of how you know that – it's absurd.

01:40:46

It's absurd. I mean you're living in a kind of society where now people are attracted to animals with bestiality and everything else, right?

01:40:54

Yeah. And part of what happens there is that the more you give yourself over to depravity, the more levels of depravity and taboo things start to become normative.

01:41:04

But there is hope that – like you don't just – it's not like, oh, well, you were attracted to the animal at one time.

01:41:09

So therefore you can never be attracted to a woman again. It's like that isn't the way it works. You can put off the deviant attractions and it may take some time to retrain you.

01:41:21

But I don't think it's like an overnight thing. But if you stop feeding these immoral attractions, they go away.

01:41:27

They're not just going to stay there forever. If you keep on feeding them and if you put a wall around them and say, hey, you can't touch them, yeah, they may stay there.

01:41:36

Like if you keep on running down that track, you keep on running down that track as far as that goes.

01:41:42

I'm reminded of someone like Hugh Hefner who was the guy who invented

01:41:51

Playboy or whatever. Towards the end of his life, he's kind of an old man who was unable to be – like he had given himself over to such immorality that he was unable to be attracted to women anymore.

01:42:06

Essentially at the very end of it, he's on the set with all the depravity that's going on.

01:42:16

He's self -stimulating to gay porn because that's the only thing that could work for him anymore.

01:42:22

That's kind of what happens. Like if you give yourself over to certain levels of depravity, like you're training yourself in a deviant practice and you're fundamentally altering your sexual drive.

01:42:34

You can take it all back by God's grace. It may take some time, but there's no sin that you can't be cleansed from.

01:42:43

Despite the lies of psychology, these things aren't fixed and immovable. You can turn from them. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think that's good.

01:42:54

I think that's a good place for us to kind of end. I even think there might be some questions that even I still have that maybe we can work into some midweek episodes that maybe we could even flesh out a little more.

01:43:10

I have a few that I didn't even really necessarily get to that I think would be interesting to hear what you have to say on them.

01:43:17

But for this episode, I think that's kind of a good place for us to stop.

01:43:24

For those of you listening, be looking out for those midweek episodes and we'll see you guys again next time.

01:43:32

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

01:43:38

We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media.

01:43:47

Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback, and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at BibleBashedPodcast at gmail .com.

01:43:58

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.