SBC Pastor Survey

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

Apostle Paul said, "...but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you."

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

Yes. Steve Cooley's here, Tuesday guy. Steve, tell me something about your life. What's new with you?

What are your plans for the summer? How old are you? What do you like to do? Tell me something.

Anything. Everything. I recently turned 27. Wow. Well, you look older.

You look almost like 30 years older. Well, not quite. 52. I'm looking at your hair.

You have more hair than I have, and it's not as gray as mine. Do you use Grecian formula? Only on Tuesday.

Okay. Well, yeah, that's a few little flecks there. It's kind of Marlboro man -ish.

Well, you know, all those years of smoking. Actually, I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. You know what I was thinking, though?

At the start of the show, I thought we should just start a show where we don't know where the beginning is, where we're just talking and we just start the show.

Okay. When we don't have any idea on what we're going to talk about? Yeah. Okay. Let's do that, not this show, but next show.

Okay. We'll take one more, and then we'll do that, and we'll see if we get any good ratings. If the Arbitron ratings are up and the endorsers are in, advertisement goes up, fine.

If we lose some advertising money, everything revolves around that. How much money do we get in the coffers?

What our listeners don't know is we have the third most highly rated show in the United States. Yes. And in terms of ratings for the

Cooley family and the Abentroth family and that other family, we pay to listen to it. See, but just think, if this was our day job,

I just think how great the show could be. Oh, it'd be terrific. We'd have a crack team of hundreds of researchers.

We'd probably have like 1 ,350 Facebook likes. Oh, more than that. I'm guessing 1 ,375.

Yeah, that's right. Sometimes when I go to Facebook and look, the number actually goes down.

They're unliking us. What? How can that be? Are you kidding? Yeah. That's the total stiff arm.

We're going to just unlike you on Facebook. That's brutal. That makes me feel bad. I did get some gas today down at the gas station, and I gave the lady ...

I said, hi, how are you today? She said, great. How are you? I said, compared to what I deserve, I'm doing great. She gave me the total look, and then

I said, $60 on number nine, please. Wow. Then she said, number nine. Number nine.

Number nine. Number nine. All right. What we have today is the SBC, that is not

Schlock Bible Church, that is Southern Baptist Convention. Oh, I thought it was a new broadcasting network.

There's NBC, ABC, and SBC. Yeah, see? That would work out perfectly. It's Arminian Seeker Sensitive.

Okay. The SBC Pastor Survey for 2012. Okay. So, this is the sheet that goes out to all senior pastors in the

SBC - Oh, that explains why I didn't get one. Okay. All right. I get it now. There's a little problem going on within the

SBC, and that is the problem of the elephant is in the room, and it is called - Charismatic gifts.

I wish. Unregenerate mission field members? How about how many times a month you should do the

Lord's Table? Oh, no. It is Calvinism. Ugh.

That was my next guess. Calvinism. There's a lot of Calvinists, Southern Baptists, but there are more

Arminians, and those Arminians are vocal, and I would say, Steve, in all honesty, honestly, in all honesty, that the

Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention love and are happy that there are other people in the convention who are

Arminians and who love the lost and who love the Lord and want to teach the Bible. Because Calvinists are willing to take them just as they are.

Now, that is funny. But most of the Arminians -

I was going to say Charismatics - most of the Arminians, or many of them, maybe it's just the vocal ones, the loquacious ones, the loud ones, the megaphones, they don't like the

Calvinists. They want them excised. They want them out. This is a major issue. And the Calvinists aren't making it an issue.

The Arminians are. Which I find curious. I mean, you know, why can't they just get along?

And what about their theme song, Just a Closer Walk with Me? What's wrong with that? Well, that's not obviously talking about Calvinistic pastors named

John Broadus and Basil Manley. Yeah. I mean, the great truth of it is, if you look at the history of the

Southern Baptist Convention, basically founded by Calvinists and - Abstracted principles,

Calvinistic. And yet you look at it today, and it's like the Calvinists are the outsiders.

They're the rebels. And you just go, how did that happen? Steve, let me just tell you a little bit of the world's wisdom, and I think this will serve you well in your years to come.

Do I need to bow my head and close my eyes? Money rules. Oh, excuse me. Attendance, buildings, and cash.

They rule. Whatcha runnin'? The Whatcha runnin' churches, do you think, are bigger than the Calvinistic churches?

The ABCs of SBC? Attendance, buildings, and cash? Yes. ABC. Yes. Arminians, Baptists, and Calvinists.

The ABCs of the SBC. All right, so here's what we have in front of us. And I kid you not, this is the actual pastoral survey.

If it wasn't, could he do this? Yes, that's right. It's like a Rush Limbaugh moment. That's how you know it's actual.

Yes, and it's got the little number two lead pencil fill -ins.

Strongly disagree, somewhat disagree, somewhat agree, strongly agree, don't know if I agree

I'm a postmodern. No, or don't have a clue. That should be on there too. I'm clueless.

North American Mission Board, clueless. Okay, so they have questions, and it says, this is question number 31.

Please indicate your level of agreement with each of the following statements. So here's what we're going to do today.

I, Mike Abendroth, get to ask you, Steve Cooley, these questions. And you don't know these questions ahead of time.

Steve's pushing on his forehead now. I think I see some Excedrin or Aleve or something like that over there.

Is that a vein on my forehead? You're so vain. You probably think this survey's about you.

I know it's not, though, because you said it was only for senior pastors. Ooh, senior. Here's the nice thing.

I mean, it's kind of like a slow pitch right across the middle of the plate. I can swing for the fences, and I've got nothing to lose.

I'm not a senior pastor. Steve, I think he has a psychological problem, and I think he needs more than Aleve.

I think he needs some kind of Ativan, because Steve has this complex. If I ever say senior pastor, lead pastor, assimilation pastor, worship pastor, all those things that I call myself,

Steve really, really, that really grates against his grain. Yeah, I want to be the senior associate pastor.

Senior associate. Senior associate pastor, because then I'm a sap. Sub -question

A. I'm not going to list these. I'll just tell them. This is strongly agree down to strongly disagree.

Okay. Okay? My church is theologically reformed. I strongly agree.

I agree at 100— Uber strongly. 200, 600 billion percent.

And what we mean by that is we believe that God is sovereign, not just over weather and skin color, but sovereign over who goes to heaven, so much so that in eternity past, the

Father gave the Son a commission, which the Son gladly received, and that great commission was to go die on behalf of those that the

Father has chosen. You know, even when you say that, that's just so bizarre to me. Flip it over.

God's not sovereign on who goes to heaven. He's just like—he's standing at the gate going, wow, wow, look at all these people coming.

Steve, don't you think the logical outcome of Arminianism, if carried all the way out, extrapolated out, the trajectory is open theism?

Yes, it is. God doesn't know. God's waiting. Yep. I mean, I don't—when I sat and listened to Clark Pinnock talk about his open theism when it first hit in probably 2000 and—well, in 2000, 1999,

I'll tell you, it was shocking to hear him say it, but at least he was consistent.

Yeah. A super smart guy. I mean, IQ double mine, but that's a curious idea, that God is learning—that'd be open theism— that he doesn't know what's going to happen, and he's just as anxious as anybody else to see what happens.

Now, that's not Arminianism, by the way. Arminianism says that he knows what's going to happen, but he knows it based on people's free will and that he kind of alters things based on people's free will.

The English version and definition of the Greek word and Hebrew word to foreknow.

Yeah. Okay, number two. My church is theologically Arminian or Wesleyan.

Could not agree less. I thought Steve was going to say don't know. Don't know much about Wesleyans.

Don't know much about Arminians. Don't know much about Arminian fic.

What if somebody here said, I strongly agree that our church is Reformed, but I also somewhat agree that our church is

Arminian? Then they just haven't been here long enough, you know? Well, you know,

I was having this discussion on a Facebook group about what it means to be truly

Reformed. O -T -R. Yeah, truly Reformed. Teddy Roosevelt.

I just say, look, I don't really get into that. By Reformed, we mean that God is sovereign in salvation and that man is unable to do anything but sin.

And we would generally ascribe to 98 % of the truths found in the Reformed confessions from the 1689 to the 1646

London Baptist Confession to the Westminster Confession, the Savoy Confession, the

Belgic Confession, the Canons of Dort, the Senate of Dort. Hey, I was in Belgium and I had a

Belgian waffle, Belgian waffle with some Belgian chocolate on top of it.

Yeah, how was it? Steve. Well, I would think it's really good because otherwise, you know, think about it.

If you get a Belgian waffle here, they've got to ship it. All the preservatives and everything like that. Yeah, that's true. That's kind of like that thing on YouTube if you type in McDonald's Happy Meal, four years old, and it looks exactly the same.

The burger looks the same. There's no mold on it or anything. That's why they're so good. Yeah, because they stick with you.

Yeah. If I'm going to eat something, I don't want it to just pass through my system. I need some good out of it. Before the foundation of the world,

God, according to the SBC Pastor Survey 2012, they're trying to find out information so they can tweak their stuff according to that.

Before the foundation of the world, Steve's not looking. His eyes are closed. I'm focused. God predestined some people to salvation and some to damnation.

True. Now, Steve, would it be fair to say that the nuance is that predestination is a language used primarily for, maybe exclusively for, salvation, but the word predestined isn't used when it comes to damnation.

In other words, theologically, if he ordained some to go to heaven, then he has ordained some not to, but the language of Scripture, the body of Scripture, the corpus of Scripture, the corpi of the

Scripture, teaches that, like the confessions, that he would pass over some. Yeah.

I mean, it's pretty implicit rather than explicit language, certainly.

I don't think I like the way this was set up here because they don't give that nuance. And so part of the problem with the

Arminian pastors in the SBC, and Arminians in general, is they'll say, you're a Calvinist, that means you're a hyper -Calvinist, that means you don't pray for the lost, that means you don't evangelize the lost, and that means you think all dead babies go to hell, and God damns people to hell like he does predestining people to go to heaven.

And so this is a bad way to put this together. Well, because it's obviously slanted.

Yes. Now certainly with 1 Peter 2 .8, Romans 9, what we looked at last show, Proverbs 16,

Exodus, there are passages that talk about God actively sending people to reprobation, but in general, he elects to salvation and he passes over those others.

All right. Here's a good one for Pastor Steve. He does not know this one. This is shaded in a little gray here.

Christ died only for the elect, not for everyone in the world. That would be 100 % agree.

Strong? Is that strong or is that just somewhat? Strong, off the charts, agree. Yes. What's the problem when people initially, their gut reaction, if you say,

Jesus didn't die for every person, why is it such a visceral reaction? Why does it just slap people like a five -hour energy drink in the morning?

Because God so loved the world, you know? And if Jesus didn't die for everybody's sins, then not everybody can go to heaven.

And that just doesn't seem fair. And that is the issue that is raised over and over again, is the fairness issue and all that.

And don't you think, Steve, that most people today have been taught that Jesus died for each and every particular person who's ever been born?

So then if you ever say the atonement for the forgiveness of sins done in the book of the

Pentateuch, Moses' writings, isn't for the entire world. It was only for Israel and those who would adhere themselves to Israel's God.

It was easily taught in the Old Testament. The Canaanites did not receive any atonement based on Yom Kippur in the

Day of Atonement. So why are people so going berserk to use the

Message Bible in Acts 19? Why are they so berserk about this? Berserk in two episodes in a row.

That's pretty exciting. Well, I mean, they just don't like the idea that there are some people for whom

Christ did not die. And again, I think it comes down to ultimately an issue of fairness. Don't want to think about maybe loved ones being in hell.

Want to think that there's some kind of chance that they might be in heaven or what have you. But if Jesus died for all the sins of all people, and then it's up to us to either receive that death on our behalf or not, then based on our own faith, our own free will, then nobody's going to do it.

We can't do it. And, you know, Jesus' death in the place of sinners then in large part would be in vain.

He would have accomplished nothing by dying. Well, A, would not be a substitutionary atonement.

I know people who say they're Arminian and they believe in substitutionary atonement, but at the end of the day, logically, it can't be consistent, because what are they— who is the substitute?

And was the substitute for all sins of that person, including faith? The additional question that I have,

Steve— You mean unbelief, sin of unbelief. Yeah, the lack of faith, sorry. Then I also ask the question, if Jesus assuaged the wrath of God, then he assuaged the wrath of God for each and every person, so why would

God be angry with wicked people if they are already people who have experienced the justice of God?

Well, similar to what you said earlier, if that is in fact the case, that he died for the sins of all people for all time, and assuaged the anger of God for that, then basically the logical end is universalism.

Nobody's going to hell. And if God would have chosen to die for each and every person, then that's up to him.

But the Scriptures teach that there is a place that Judas went to. Did Jesus die for Judas' sins?

Well, if he did, why is Judas in hell now? Jesus said it would be better for him not to be born.

Steve, I think I could make a fair case to say Judas is in hell, or if you want to call it a temporary place of punishment until the final lake of fire and hell and all that stuff later.

Okay, I get that part. But what about Goliath? I could probably make a pretty good case for Goliath.

I don't think he got saved when the stone was in the air. Probably not. I should have believed.

That's called slingshot evangelism. Maybe there's a tract on the stone.

Yeah, maybe. It's like the person who likes to preach

David and Goliath. Why did he pick up so many stones? You know, he had a lack of faith. He should have just picked up one.

What were those other stones for? Well, those symbolized the deadly sins of the twelve tribes.

They were an opaque version of the Urim and the Thummim. Okay, we're going to continue on No Compromise Radio.

Pastor Steve is in the house. Mike Abendroth here. Info at NoCompromiseRadio .com SBC, Southern Baptist Church Southern Baptist Convention Pastor Survey 2012 asking the senior pastor, who is

Steve Cooley, Thank you. I am concerned about the impact of Calvinism in our convention.

I agree strongly. I am concerned about it. I mean, how stupid is that question? Because shouldn't everyone—

If I'm an Arminian, I'm concerned. If I'm a Calvinist, I'm concerned. I guess if you're a Calminian, maybe you're not—

We should do one of those songs about the calamine lotion, right? Poison ivy, you can look, but you better not touch.

And we could do it, The Calminian Lotion. I don't think that would be a good song. Too many syllabi.

Okay, number 95. 95 Theses. God is the true evangelist, and when he calls someone to himself, his grace is irresistible.

True. Off the charts, true. The ultimate question is, if God's grace is resistible, then again, how does a dead person resist it?

Well, it goes back to the basic point of this. Do you have to be regenerative to believe or not?

I mean, that's the bottom line. How much resistance could a dead man resist if a dead man could resist resistance?

Yeah, I mean, hey, here's a great thing to do. Go to a graveyard, give a dead man a rope, and then play tug -of -war with him and see who wins.

Well, just take the shovel and start whacking away and see how much he blocks himself. He won't hold the rope.

I can't make him hold the rope. All right, let's keep going. This is crazy. It diminishes God's sovereignty to invite all persons to repent and believe.

False. See, they're trying to smoke out some hyper -Calvinists there. Well, I'm all for smoking out hyper -Calvinists, but it doesn't diminish

God's sovereignty at all. We plead, we urge, we beg with all men to be saved, to repent and believe on the

Lord Jesus Christ, but that has nothing to do with anything. I tell people when they find out

I'm a Calvinist, they go, well, then you probably don't think you have to preach the gospel to anybody. And I'm like, no,

I preach the gospel to all that I can possibly do. Why? Because I know that God uses that to save people.

Jesus was a Calvinist, and he preached to everybody. Without respect? When James Boyce preached that sermon called

Jesus was a Calvinist, I about fell off my chair. And basically what he said was, of course,

Jesus, along with the Father and the Son, developed these doctrines, of course, out of their own nature.

That is, they are choosing— you know, their persons choose. That is,

God chooses. And so he said it has nothing to do with John Calvin, but if Calvinism means, in the vernacular, theologically, that God's in charge of salvation, then

Jesus was a Calvinist. I honestly do not understand why this is so controversial anyway.

I mean, of course, it's anachronistic to say that Jesus was a Calvinist, but to suggest that God is not sovereign in salvation, or that his sovereignty in salvation is somehow limited by the free will of man, and then to not be able to list a single verse that says,

God has reserved your will so that he will not interfere with it, is just mind -boggling to me.

Steve, I was just thinking about something when you were talking. It's not very theological, but that's okay. Morgan Freeman.

And then I thought about another man who kind of looks like Morgan Freeman, and he was in a movie. And I went to fly to California, and I was watching a movie on the screen, and the man who was in the movie, the star of the movie, was actually sitting in the first -class seats.

So how would you like to be a movie star flying across the country, and then the movie that's on is about, you're in it?

That would be kind of weird. I'd probably want to sign some autographs or something. That's right.

God promises to provide material blessings to his followers as a sign of his favor.

That's false. Now, honestly, what does that have to do with Calvinism? Almost nothing.

But the survey is not just supposed to be about that. So maybe this is also trying to smoke out any prosperity gospel.

Ooh, smoking. Well, I have to tell you this that happened yesterday, Steve. I kid you not. My dog is named

Jetty. She's a Jack Russell. Jedi or Jetty? Jetty, J -E -T -T -Y, like the little inlet peninsula thing that goes by the ocean.

It's a long story. There's a Jetty Jack Beach in Santa Cruz, so she's Jetty. She's the Jack Russell.

But I just gave her a new name, because if you have the intonation of your voice and the inflection of your voice the right way, they pretty much answer to anything.

So I decided to give my dog an extra name. Not a replacement name, but an extra name. And so all day yesterday, when

I got home, I called my dog Smokey. Smokey? Come here.

Now, this should hit you close to home, Steve. Conflict among staff is a significant distraction to my ministry.

Agree strongly. Agree strongly. Off the charts.

Here's another one. A pencil is not enough. Submission to the senior pastor is a sign of godliness.

Oh, just disagree entirely. I mean, that is just craziness. Oh, sorry.

That wasn't in here. I have sufficient time each week for sermon preparation. Oh, disagree.

Disagree. Before I preach, I always think the answer is yes.

After I preach, I always think the answer is no. Oh, it was a Mother's Day sermon,

Steve, if people want to go back and listen. The first sermon I preached, it didn't turn out so well.

So for the second service, I just preached from the same passage, but a completely different sermon. I wish

I would have had more time to prepare. Dealing with critics can distract ministers from their ministry.

True. And criticism— I mean, people think, well, you know, I'm entitled to my own opinion.

They're absolutely right. But what they don't realize is, you know, all the backbiting, gossiping, which is ultimately what it is, is very destructive to the unity of the

Church. So I agree totally. I make evangelism a high priority in my personal ministry beyond what

I do in my preaching ministry. I think that's true. Steve, I find it fascinating that whoever phrased that wanted to make sure there was a lot of emphasis on evangelism in the preaching ministry.

And while I'm not against that, I think we are called to edify the saints and then equip them for the work of ministry, and they go out to evangelize.

And so I think one of the problems in the Southern Baptist Convention is there's too much evangelizing the new believers, and then they always stay new believers and immature believers because none of the meat has been taught.

Well, but if you don't do that, how are you going to do an altar call? You know what?

I think we should maybe have a little class— how to build an altar. Don't we need to know how big the altar should be?

How wide? What is it made of? You don't want some cheap veneer? Maybe we could write some more songs to bring your soul upon the altar.

Did they sing that in the Mormon church? No, but I'd like to write that song. So today you've been listening to Steve and Mike.

We've been talking about SBC Pastor Surveys, Whatcha Runnin', Attendance Buildings and Cash, and Calvinism and Arminianism.

Steve, any final words? Yeah, I mean, it's good to know that someday I'll be the senior pastor. Someday. ...the

life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.