March 16, 2022 Show with Ryan Denton on “Augustine the Evangelist”

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at Iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 16th day of March 2022

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a guest that we have interviewed before and even as recently as last week

But today we are going to be interviewing Ryan Denton on a different book that he has written

He was a pastor of the Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the wild ministries which he has directed since 2016 a church planter and an evangelist in Texas and the author of several books.

We are going to be a dust Discussing his latest book today Augustin the evangelist the zeal hope and methodology of the

Bishop of Hippo and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back again to iron sharpens iron radio

Ryan Denton And if you could let our listeners know something about Christ in the wild ministries

Reservation Back in 2016 and Doing a lot of evangelism ministry out there and our church

To do that same type of ministry and then and currently we just moved to Lubbock, Texas last

It seems like last month, but it was December And here we are planning a church in Lubbock and a church in Clovis, New Mexico So both of those are doing very well right now, but and so, you know churches to do it till we quit churches to better do that and the website address is

Christ in the wild calm Christ in the wild calm for more information and Augustin is someone who is considered at least by His proponents his fans for lack of a better term

He is considered one of the greatest minds in the history of Christendom And those that either are opposed to the the usage of Augustin's theology teachings and writings are when they're coming from a

Protestant or fundamentalist or Evangelical standpoint they are typically speaking in total ignorance they

Think that Augustin because he is a hero of Roman Catholics Who also misunderstand him and wrongly attribute to him?

Beliefs teachings and practices that he never even dreamed of So are those in the

Protestant realm who are opposed to him ignorant of the true Augustin because of the fact that they

Have an erroneous understanding that he is just as the Roman Catholic adherence of Augustin they think that the

Catholics are right they think that he is a Roman Catholic theologian and didn't

Augustin Live in a day before there was actually a Roman Catholic Church yeah, and I think part of the other problem is that a lot of the

Non -reformed Calvinistic wing of the church sees in Augustin somebody who brought in the doctrine of predestination and things like that and so Yeah from from both from both corners really he he is mischaracterized and Certainly abused yeah so tell us about Augustin of Hippo give us some background information especially for the sake of those that are completely ignorant of him

Or only have a basic knowledge of him that may be false Okay, yeah, well let me let me start out by saying the the influence of Augustin Just in general is immense You can find a list in The book on just the different figures that that were influenced by Luther excuse me

Augustin Luther is one of them Freud Aquinas Anselm Pascal Kierkegaard Nietzsche Wittgenstein Just to name a few were influenced by his writings the

Emperor Charlemagne used to sleep with a copy of Augustine City of God beneath his pillow at night

And so that's just you know that would be outside aside from Luther That's going to be guys who are who are typically considered outside the the realm of your your mainstream

Orthodox tradition, but even when it came to the

Puritans and the Reformers You know William Perkins he had the book called the art of prophesying and he acknowledges that that book was heavily influenced by Augustin's own

Book called on Christian doctrine, which is similar the sense of it deals with homiletics and things like that And then of course

John Calvin, I think the Institute's Augustin is quoted more than anybody else with the exception of maybe

Bernard of Clairvaux So Augustin has a huge influence on Calvin you have

John Knox that he said his favorite church fathers were Augustin and Chrysostom and so The Puritans according to Perry Miller who was a you know a

Historian about the Puritans. He said that Augustin was actually more popular amongst the the people living in the 1600s than even the

Reformers so so he's just had a monumental impact on the tradition of Christianity that's far more

Did just let's say in the Roman Catholic realm or I would even say or or than just the

The more reformed Calvinistic wing of Christianity. I mean this is he's he's monumental

He was he had a big influence in his own day. So a lot of times, you know people Aren't really recognized or noticed until after they died

With Augustin that wasn't quite the case because of the way he was converted.

He was converted at 31 And so he was a little older in life, but when he was converted he held what would

Be considered for us to be something like the Dean of you know What are the most prestigious universities in the world?

So maybe a Cambridge or or Oxford or something like that. And so he was he was an academic and He was certainly not a

Christian. His mom was a Christian when he was growing up. His dad was a pagan and so He wrestled with with different philosophies and worldviews and then eventually the

Lord saved him at 31 and and when he did save Augustin, I mean it was it was

Lights out to his whole past and the whole life that he lived, you know, so he he he quit the

Academic stuff in part because he had to by virtue of the fact that he became a

Christian but he went back to Africa and he wanted to spend his life as a monk and Just kind of just kind of study books and read and talk about him and things like that Well, and this is something

I write about in the book What compels him out of that though is a few different circumstances, you know, it's never black and white but one of the the main thrust was the fact that he

He wanted to go in evangelize men he wanted to go and see people rescued from the the jaws of paganism and false religion and things like that and so eventually he goes and becomes a bishop and He he

Has a monastery there and that monastery it was not the type That's kind of like tucked away in the desert somewhere where they just pray and and and fast and things like that Although they were praying and fasting one of the main things that they were doing is that it was a training ground to supply church plants with with ministers and so Everything he did was was

Evangelistic and that's something that that caught my attention when I started writing this book is I've always been a fan of Augustin But when you read through the the things that have been written about Augustin, it's usually through the lens of looking at his

Theological prowess which is true. There's no doubt about that or his Whereas philosophical achievements which are that's that's true.

He has plenty of those but when I was reading it and and I was trying not to be biased being an evangelist and Missionary myself, but I'm I was seeing somebody who is very clearly

Engaged and passionate even in his pulpit preaching about communicating the gospel to people who are lost and I that's that is a realm that in My experience anyways, as far as my knowledge goes that has been really almost completely untouched.

And so I started writing this book in a THM class at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has taken a class with Dr.

Bandu to ward Yes, he's been on the program Okay. Yeah, so yeah, he's a great guy.

Yeah, the assignment was like a 40 page paper on something about Augustin and so I started writing this paper and it ballooned to like 75 pages very quickly and You know, dr.

Bandu was very gracious. I reached out to him and said, you know, I have a little bit of a problem here and He said well, you know, you still need to cut that back which was expected

But he said I would I would love to read what you have and offer some Suggestions or whatever direction you want to take it, you know to help you with that And so that's where it started and now it's you know

I think it turned out like 150 pages when it was all said and done but there's there's still so much to be done on this on this one topic and so I just kind of wanted to start get the ball rolling and And let some of the some of the heavy -duty scholars and academic types take over and see, you know

How to move move the ball down the field a little with this now obviously there has been debate between Roman Catholics and evangelicals

Particularly Reformed evangelicals who openly and enthusiastically Welcome Augustine as one of our heroes

There has been debate and disagreement vociferous disagreement Dating back to the

Reformation itself as to whether Augustine truly believed in the same gospel as the

Reformers and although Luther Loved Augustine as well.

I'm particularly speaking of our of our Calvinistic Reformers including Calvin The the

Roman Catholic would say that we are either totally ignorant of History and Augustine in particular or we are lying one of the other to dare to say that Augustine's understanding of unconditional election and God's sovereignty and salvation and the gospel itself

Were that these teachings were the same in Augustine's heart and mind as they were in Calvin's heart and mind and his heirs in the

Reformed faith So why don't you set the record straight as far as you understand it? Well, and so, you know,

I think it's unfair when we when we're overly critical of someone who lived

In his case, what is that 1 ,500 years ago and it's certainly not to justify Augustine's mistakes because he certainly even when it comes to evangelism in the book.

I talk especially about the over emphasis and reliance at times on miracles that you can find in his work and and also even with certain elements of coercion state coercion against Dissenting views on on the gospel

And especially that ladder has been mischaracterized also but anyway, so You know, it's

I think BB Warfield said that the Reformation itself was a battle between Augustine's doctrine of the church meaning the

Roman Catholics view and the doctrine of Augustine's doctrine of justification

Which would be more in line with the Protestant? Reformation view and so I think that's probably the best summary that you can find because there is a there is an element of You know an emphasis on on on sacraments and even

Baptismal regeneration type of stuff you can see that even in Augustine's confessions So it's not to say that he was perfect However, it is like you're saying when it comes to the elements of the gospel

There's no doubt that he is he is certainly more in line with the Protestant Reformation than he is with Rome Yes, those are head -scratching oxymoronic things that we find in some of our heroes in Augustine and Luther in particular

Luther believed in all five solos of the Reformation Which he didn't coin those all of those battle cries, but they're found within his

Various writings, but he agreed with all of them. He agreed. I mean he championed solo fide and solo gratia and yet continued to believe in baptismal regeneration, which seems to be at the antithesis of The solo fide and solo gratia and that would

I would include Augustine in that And it's easy again for us to sit, you know, 1 ,500 years removed and we've already had numerous, you know the

Nicene Council and we've had We've had numerous debates and treatises and systematic theology books that have already been written before we are even born that That have really hashed this issue out

And so, you know in Augustine's day and even in Luther's day They are still wrestling with some of this information and trying to try to Figure out what exactly is going on there.

And so I The first time I well, not the first time I preached in my life back, you know 10 or 11 years ago.

I was 20 27 and and I was not in Augustinian.

I mean I'd read the confessions by then and I probably I wasn't even a

Calvinist per se. Although, you know, the doctors were certainly there But I preached a sermon at a little

Baptist Church in New Mexico and after the sermon There was a man that they called on to pray to close the service they called on him to pray and he stood up and started praying and You know,

I'm not I'm not exaggerating when I say it was about a 15 minute prayer, but it was a it was a sermonette on the reason why

So so he was praying like Lord protect Ryan because he's clearly a

Calvinist and he's an Augustinian and you know It got stood in these in Calvin and these guys have had such a horrendous

Negative impact on so many people and on the church and all these things and I'm I'm thinking man

I don't even know what he's talking about, you know but then I found out he was a church history professor at a very

Arminian school in that area. So You know, the thing is my point is is that it's it's easy for let's say any of us to be very one -sided about this

And it just kind of throw everything out. That was meaningful at all about about Augustin Whereas if we if we actually go down that route

Then we're going to have to throw everybody out in the history of the church because there was never a single person

Whose doctrine was was perfect in every area and so I'm saying that not to excuse

Augustin, but to rather look at it in light of our own sanctification

Augustin's own sanctification and and also the testimony that we have of Just in between Augusta's lifetime and ours just the amount of people like Luther's like a gut

Excuse me Like Calvin like the Puritans William Perkins these other guys who clearly saw something beneficial

About a gut and I would say I would actually argue and in the book I do argue that if it wasn't for Augustin the missionary mindset of a gush of Augustin the the

Influence of Augustin the desire of Augustin to permeate the world with the gospel that is going to be

Directly it's going to be picked up by by Luther and by Calvin and by Knox and all the

Reformers That's exactly what they're doing So they're taking Augustin's program and they're applying it to their own day and that in my mind

It's one of the main catalysts for the for the spread of the gospel and and I'm arguing that because of how influenced they were by So whether or not they knew that it was happening and to sum up one of the vital points of what you are saying

People should never Be guilty of bearing false witness

Against anyone including those who have been deceased for many centuries like Augustin and therefore

The Roman Catholics must be very careful not to lie about Augustin or repeat falsehoods out of ignorance

That that would be included in their many comments, especially comments by people who should know better like trained apologists who regurgitate over and over again the unanimous consent of the fathers and try to Make the claim as that the the church fathers

Unanimously agreed with Trent's dogmas that they defined

And some of those dogmas that were defined at Trent And even dogmas that were defined later even in the 20th century

One of which was defined in the 20th century None of those things were even a

Thought in the imagination of the earlier church fathers including Augustine and I'm not of course not speaking about every single

Dogma, but I'm saying many of those things especially those in regarding Mary and some of the sacraments and so on and the view of the

Transubstantiation of the mass and things like that many of those things just nowhere to be found in the patristic evidence.

Am I right? Difficulty Augustine The difficulty with Augustine and with with with any of the patristic writers there

They they are just like any of us. They're in the process of Growing and their views on certain things changed and so for instance when when

Rome wants to claim a Certain father and what they said about a certain topic and they said we'll see so -and -so said that over here therefore it substantiates what what our what our dogmas are the problem with that is that That person that they're quoting.

Let's say Augustine for instance he might have had that view early on and that his mind changes later on and And so they're still using a certain view on that and so The problem with that is of course, they're viewing these these guys as having as much authority as Scripture itself and so Yeah, they're the abuse on Again, I would say the abuse on both sides whether it's more of your fundamental

Armenian type or whether it is the Roman Catholic when they're when they're using

Augustine to When they're manipulating Augustine ultimately to justify a certain narrative or a certain purpose that they have in mind

Like for instance to discredit Predestination they'll say well, we'll look at Augustine, you know, he's he's he's a proving state coercion or look at Augustine He's a

Roman Catholic and he believes in predestination. You know, that's that's Why that's not even close to the full picture

And so the same thing happens with the Roman Catholics and of course we as Protestant reform

Protestants we need to Be careful that we don't do that either. So and that's you know again with this book

There are areas that I certainly am critical about when it comes to Augustine and I've mentioned two of them already

But even even certain Aspects of his preaching it can kind of carry into more of a works based

Type of framework, but it's always It's it's the majority of the sermons that I've read anyways, and you know, the other thing about Augustine is

Let me let me let me share this quote so It's estimated. He wrote 5 .4

million words during his ministry And so there was a medieval monk who said that he who says he has read all of Augustine lies

Speaking of Augustine's works one of so is he had a contemporary biographer Obsidians who said that scarcely any student would be able to read and know all of his works

So, you know, there is that caveat as well, but it's just to say that that The majority of his sermons do not come across as workspace.

They don't in my estimation, you know, it kind of depends on the contact and the situation that he's preaching into but He is without a doubt an evangelistic missionary type of pastor he was a pastor and They're doing a lot of stuff

I mean this guy had a lot on his plate and and his wife was committed to the church It really was and not the

Roman Catholic Church, you know that the actual true Universal Church and when you read his works, and I hope when you read this book, you'll definitely come through Despite the works in the black eyes that you'll occasionally have with him

Well, we have to go to our first station break if you have a question for Ryan Denton on Augustin, please.

Send us an email the Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris a RN z n at gmail .com

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence If you live outside the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away

We'll be right back with Ryan Denton and more of our discussion on Augustin right after these messages

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Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today is Ryan Denton and we are discussing his new book

Augustine the Evangelist the zeal hope and methodology of the bishop of Hippo and we do have a listener who has a question for you, and you've already addressed some of What he is

Asking about but I'll have you Reply to it nonetheless and because it's not everything he's asking is

Something that you've addressed and this happens to be a pastor who I highly regard

Pastor Gary George and after you finish Responding to my friend

Pastor Gary. I will provide Gary's contact information his website and so on because he

Happens to be a pastor that I want people to Know about I want people to visit his church and so on if they live in his area.

I always try to Do that as much as possible as far as spreading the word about good churches on my show

He's the pastor of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts But he says am

I correct that Augustine believed in the necessity of water baptism for salvation Particularly for infants that they couldn't go to heaven apart from being baptized and if they weren't they would go into limbo

Something that made maybe he first posed How and his second question is how did his position on baptism?

Correlate with his teaching on justification by faith and predestination So I guess really the the only question the only issue that you haven't addressed to my knowledge on the show is the limbo issue

And I have no recollection of coming across limbo either in Augustine or in the

Stuff that I've read about Augustine. Maybe it was a party game that he enjoyed

You know as far as the infant baptism goes though, yeah, I mean there was an element of that in The the way that they would

Correlate as far as how justification by faith alone It's it's in a sense

When you have somebody let's say an infant who is baptized I You know, it's not to say that they can't fall away from that.

I guess and in I Agree, there's inconsistencies on this.

So it's you know, I can't really take a stand for example Augustine in this area anyways because I too agree that that that's inconsistent, so But as far as the limbo part,

I'm not I'm not sure and I've not come across that Well, thank you Gary and I want our listeners to know that your website for Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts Is sovereign grace ma the abbreviation for Massachusetts org?

Sovereign grace ma org. Thanks a lot Gary. And by the way you have won a free copy of August in the evangelist and We are going to have

CV BBS. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out to you and this is compliments of the greater heritage publishing and also

CV BBS who are Picking up the postage fee to ship it out to you

So, thank you so much Pastor Gary and by the way, I want to read before we continue

I want to read a couple of very powerful endorsements for this book

William Van Dood Ward who? Has been a guest on this program He is professor at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan He says this is a great story of a man with an evangelical heart in action, but even more marvelously

It is a narrative of our Lord Jesus Christ saving and sanctifying a sinner from another time and culture to become an instrument for the salvation and sanctification of many others and Rob Ventura another guest that I have interviewed on this program in the past He says educational and exciting this volume motivates us to follow in the footsteps of this great theologian

Who earnestly preached Christ to the lost? I highly encourage everyone to take up and read this book and obviously

Rob is referring to the story of how Augustine actually Got saved by the grace of God when he heard

Children chanting in Latin tole legay or am I mispronouncing that Latin phrase?

No, that's right and which means take up and read and it seems to be confusing as far as the historian accounts of that Whether he was actually hearing literal children

Chanting that while they were playing or if it was some kind of a supernatural thing. What is your take on that?

Well, Augustine says it was a child were you know a kid so I he said that In his confessions, and so I kind of take it to mean that it was a child now, obviously

God certainly Used that situation and used the voice of that child to move

Augustine to take up essentially the scriptures and read that passage in Romans that that eventually ultimately saved him but you know,

I always I always think about how how How neat it is that in our in our everyday?

Existence we are impacting other people and perhaps to their salvation in ways that we don't even know about You know to that girl

Who said those words has no idea and I'm assuming had no idea the impact that she would have on church history and on the entire

Western civilization just by being outside and playing and in Augusta said that they were playing some game

That that had that phrase in there. So she said that and blurted it out and he saw that as a you know

Providentially a sign from God to go and do that with the with the gospel or with the epistles that he had in his house

So it's kind of neat, you know the whole story, but it's certainly God's providential hand on the situation.

I don't I don't think it was a voice That wasn't real though personally By the way, folks.

I just wanted to let you know if you live in the Providence, Rhode Island area the man whose

Commendation I just read Robert Rob Ventura he is pastor at Grace Community Baptist Church in North Providence, Rhode Island and I strongly urge you to visit his church if you live in that area

Especially if you do not have a biblically sound church of your own by the way

Ryan, please Stick to this phone that you're using a yellow neon

Sticker that says use this phone for Chris Arnson's interviews because it is infinitely superior to the first one

You're using Okay Yes, I have no idea why it is infinitely superior

I Thanks for calling back in to the studio on that phone

You titled the book as we've been repeating Augustin the evangelist now could this

Selection of a title not only be because you're focusing on that aspect of him But because when people think of a great mind like that when they think of a theologian like that They typically may think erroneously and perhaps it's not always wrong that they think this way or incorrect, but but they may draw the conclusion when somebody is a giant of intellect who is beloved by the majority of Academia and Christendom as one of the of the greatest minds that ever lived in regard to The Christian faith they may think this man was just locked in a study and just writing and writing and writing and Evangelism wasn't even a part of his life

They may wrongly conclude but is that one of the reasons that you wanted to focus on this? Yeah, absolutely

There's a you know, and ironically When people speak of Augustin the evangelist there was actually an early church history

There was there there was an Augustin who is typically described as Augustin the evangelist he was he was from Canterbury, England though, he died in 604 and and and he saw just enormous amounts of Converts and in present -day

England back in the 6th century and so Usually when we do speak of Augustin the evangelist, it's not it's not the one from Hippo It's the one from Canterbury and and so that was that's part of it

But you know if you think and that's if you think of Augustin, you know If you were just to poll people and say what's the first thing that comes to your mind when when you when you think of Augustin?

of Hippo Immediately you're thinking exactly in terms that you just said towering intellect

You know, he was perhaps instrumental in the Reformation or for the Reformers or for the

Roman Catholics kind of whichever side you're thinking or you know, the the coercion stuff or The the sacramental the sacramentology stuff like that So but I've told you in my in my mind

Anyways, when you read Augustin and you see and not just Augustin, but even the biographies There's there's a lot of good biographies written about Augustin.

They don't mention him as an as an evangelist They don't mission mention him as a missionary, but when you start reading him

And and again, I've I'm trying to see I'm trying to see him through a lens that that's not biased, you know

But I cannot help but to see this this guy who is just entirely entirely absorbed in the work of Ministry when

I say ministry for him in that context He one of the things I thought of this too when Pastor Gary and Massachusetts and in Robin Turin in Rhode Island You know the thing that First attracted me to Augustin and how he approached evangelism was that he the culture

He was living in is very much similar to our culture. Certainly more so than I would say like in the

Reformers day Augustin lived in a day when even though on paper the

Roman Empire Might have been Christianized the fact that the majority of people were not

Christians and even in his church The the majority of people who would be in Augustin's congregation were still very much hung up in on on pagan rituals and Certain elements of mysticism and things that we would call like New Age And so at any given point anytime he's doing ministry.

He's engaging with people who are either They're either lost or they're they're hung up in If they are saved, you know, it's a very low -level

Spiritual ebb that he's seeing and so That's the thing when he approaches the loss and and let me give you this quote that he says and this is this is something

That any anybody in ministry or any even if you're not full -time ministry anyone who wants to do ministry and and has is having to wrestle just with the the the

Affairs of everyday life the Augustin was not somebody who could just sit back and kick his feet up and study

You know 12 hours a day and that's how he's pumping out 5 .4 million words on the contrary

He says this now. This isn't a letter that he writes to this guy Piscidius who became his future biographer

He said I'm annoyed because of the demands Which are thrust on me to write arriving unannounced from here there and everywhere

They interrupt and hold up all the other things we have so neatly lined up in order They never seem to stop and can't be put aside.

So he's talking about getting letters and People asking for advice and so, you know

It'd be like us getting text messages and emails and all these things just all day long and you're thinking man

I you know, I don't have time for all of this But also here's the thing though when you look at what kind of letters or writing demands that Augustin is talking about Most of them are apologetic in nature not not that he's apologizing

But the sense of he's called to defend the faith and so a lot of times He's getting questions from skeptics on the origin of the soul

For instance, he's getting he's getting stuff regarding the Aryans who are denying the deity of Christ. They're very prominent in his day he has there's another man that he talks about who said very many false and absurd things as well as things against the

The the he says Catholic faith that would of course not be the Roman Catholic faith that be universal church type of thing

But anyway, so he desires to return to his own studies to his own writing And by the way, he preached four or five times a week

Okay, so and that was rare that was unique for him for a bishop at that time. So you can see even though he might have projects that he wants to get to Whenever these demands come in from people who are who are lost people who are questioning certain topics or doctrines he puts everything aside for the sake of Engaging that person for the sake ultimately of their soul, you know

He wants them to know the truth and he wants to combat whatever they're saying with the truth And so the same thing happens with with his preaching

I mean if he when you read a sermon Most of them are very evangelistic because of the fact he knows who is in the congregation

And again, that's why I you know The Puritans and William Perkins specifically when he's saying that his book the art of prophesying was was influenced by Augustine There's there's no doubt that there's there's there's a correspondence there.

There's correlation there and another thing to The other thing that he would have to do and this just seems just it seems horrible to me

But most most of his mornings he would have to oversee church courts Much like a judge would so these would be the problems and the debate disputes going on at the church

That's something that that a bishop would have to have done then and so it would be every morning and it would be for hours

You know, you're not talking like a 30 -minute meeting here It's it's the majority of his mornings were chewed up by sitting there and listening to these

These disputes that were taking place in the church and so He suffered from the same problem all ministers suffer from Namely a lack of time, you know, and yet It's not he didn't

He didn't let that hinder him from from still Engaging wholeheartedly with with the lost and everything he did

By the way, Pastor Gary I did a little research and it wasn't limbo that was attached to Augustin Augustin liked playing beer pong at the parties

Just kidding Gary We have one of our

Most loyal listeners who's written in the question. He must have a very vast library

That only includes books that he won from iron shop inside and radio

Gary and I'm sorry Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina greetings brothers

Dr. Michael AG Haken in his devotional book the weekly historian says

The truth of the matter is that we who are heirs of Western Christianity are all

Augustinians So profound has been his influence do you agree with that statement and I have a feeling

I know the answer to that Yeah. Yeah, if you're asking me,

I definitely agree with that because and I would say in a sense, it's more it's it's probably more

Unconscious or subconscious than it is anything else? Because it wasn't you know, it wasn't just His doctrine on Predestination for instance, but you're talking about even when it comes to You know even think about the the impact that he has on people who are like Let's say

Charlemagne who's sleeping with a copy of the City of God under his pillow, right? And then you have Luther and you have

Calvin and as I argued earlier I Believe that that they were because they were absorbing so much of Augustin is so much of his mindset

That that's what was a catalyst or at least in part was a catalyst for their missionary Zeal that they had themselves and there's a lot of good books out there.

It's actually Dr. Aiken has one out and there's several others out there that that are talking about the

Misunderstanding kind of like Augustin the misunderstanding in academia for the last 200 years as far as the

Reformers go Because there's this there's this assumption that they were not evangelistic they weren't missionary

And and now thankfully there's good books coming out and there's articles being written that are reversing that and showing that No, that was exactly what they were doing.

They were engaging the lost they were engaging False religions with the gospel and by God's grace.

They were they those those those areas of darkness and false religion They were being subdued by the gospel supplanted by the gospel

And so if you go back and look at the roots as far as where does that where does that? What does that mindset even come from now?

We know of course, it's God given but they are they are absorbing the writings and the teachings of Augustin and This when you read

Augustin that is exactly his same mindset So he's doing the same thing in His time as the

Reformers are doing in their time And of course the impact of the Reformers on the West on Western civilization is is monumental even even secular people have to recognize that and so There's no doubt and you know, even like I mentioned earlier to start out when you're talking about You're talking about Nietzsche.

You're talking about Freud You're talking about Kierkegaard all these guys that that that for better or worse

They did have an impact and an influence on society And that was that was all from Augustin.

So it's amazing. You know this he probably is I mean outside of Scripture I don't know of any single person who's had this kind of impact on on Western civilization

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In fact as my guest today Ryan Denton knows His publisher the greater heritage is

Providing a copy of Augustine the Evangelist for every man in attendance at the cut at the luncheon and I want to thank you again

Ryan for setting that in motion with your publisher Yeah, well and I appreciate you

I'm honored to To hear that you wanted to provide that book. So it worked out.

Well my my honor and privilege to do so Before the break

You were saying that there were even people that we would consider enemies of the cross enemies of Christ enemies of the scripture

Who somehow? benefited and applied the teachings of Augustine to Whatever influence they had on society and you would include

I think Freud and Nietzsche if I'm not mistaken, but when

Those that would consider themselves an enemy of Augustine to hear that they might see see

I told you so what benefit? Did Freud and Nietzsche ever give to the the society?

So if you could clarify that Sure. Yeah, it's not to say that what they were looking at.

They were not looking at his It's almost like, you know people that will will read will read the scripture and see in Jesus a good teacher

And and try to kind of cut away everything else. And so Yeah, when we say

Freud and Nietzsche and some of these other guys what they were doing is is especially in light of the confession so Augustine's confessions is really one of the first Autobiographies that was ever written in the

Western world. And so Freud especially would have been interested in that because that's that's that's you know

One of the first insights into the the psyche of a human being perhaps you could say, you know written from their own perspective and so and then and then with Nietzsche he was

He was probably and I'm not I'm not as certain about how Nietzsche was using him I'm assuming having read a number of Nietzschean stuff from from college and Certainly not endorsing any of that, but it's it's it's likely in light of I Don't know maybe the way that Augustine saw humanity

Now because Nietzschean Nietzschean ethics is about Transcending any kind of morality and that is not

Augustine So however Nietzsche was using a gust and kind of like Freud it certainly was not In the context that Augustine himself was was assuming that he would be taken and and but it's not to say that that that Augustine was not being used by these men whether for good or for evil

And so that's that's what you have with any I mean with any monumental Influential figure you're going to have people on every side trying to trying to use that and think again of Scripture, you know and how people say well well

You know Adolf Hitler used the Bible or Adolf Hitler used Martin Luther.

You know, it's like well In both cases, that's way out of context.

Perhaps you should say misused Right. Yes misused sure and that's exactly what what?

they were doing and so that's that's just it goes without saying any time that you have an influential whether it's a book or a person or a collection of works that that have that that have truth in them people are going to recognize that truth for what it is and then they'll try and Oftentimes spin that truth for the promotion of some agenda that that person or book never intended for it to be

By the way, I want to mention that anybody who has benefited greatly as I have from the writings and teachings of Dr.

Tom J. Nettles You'll be very thrilled to know that he wrote the forward to this book by my guest today

Ryan Denton Augustin the evangelist the zeal hope and methodology of the Bishop of Hippo and you could even look on the

Iron Sherpa design radio archives under Podcast past shows if you click on that, you'll see a fairly recent interview with dr.

Nettles and you could even type his name in the search engine and ETT LES for all of my interviews with dr.

Nettles It's taking a few steps back. Can you explain some of the pre conversion influences on Augustin's evangelism?

well, sure, so his mother would probably be the Most obvious one. She like I mentioned earlier.

She was a Christian and She she was a very zealous Christian and so even in Augustin's 20s and even at the time of his conversion his

Mother is always in the picture and that's Monica Yes, Monica.

Yeah, she's always she's always speaking to him about Christ She's praying fervently for his conversion and so she's she's definitely an influence both directly and I would say kind of more subtly in the sense of You know praying in secret perhaps for his soul and the

Lord blessing that prayer what an encouragement to mothers listening Who are heartbroken?

Because they see their children or at least some of them or one of them Who were raised in the faith perhaps and they've totally become a rebel an enemy of the

Lord an enemy of the gospel living Satanic lives even a child like that an apostate child

Can prove to be a prodigal son Like Augustin and become who knows maybe one of the greatest minds of Christianity just like Augustin Augustin was you know, and I mean this this guy was a true

He he was not He was a he was a he was living with a woman out of wedlock.

He actually had a son with that woman out of wedlock and and and you know, he was dabbling in all kinds of Weird Gnostic type of religions.

And so yeah, I mean if you think of You know the children who are let's say in their 20s and they're they're lost and they're you know in this

Some I don't know like even Just just the weirdest type of mystical stuff out there and and perhaps living a life of sin

That that was Augustin and this is what Augustin said about about his mother When he wrote the confessions, he says this he says and now

God did stretch forth thy hand speaking about God You did stretch forth thy hand from above and did draw up my soul out of that profound darkness of manichaeism

Because my mother your faithful one wept to thee on my behalf more than mothers are accustomed to weep for the bodily deaths of their children and Thou didst hear her.

Oh Lord Thou didst hear her and despised not her tears when pouring down they watered the earth under her eyes in every place where she prayed

Thou didst truly hear her and so Augustin himself attributes his conversion to the prayers of his mother and the ways that she was

Constantly Almost you could use the word badgering him I mean he she was very persistent and and you know in Augustin's case, that's that's what it took and finally

This is what he said He said nearly nine years passed in which I wallowed in the mud of that deep pit of manichaeism

And in the darkness of falsehood striving often to rise but being all the more heavily dashed down But all that time this chaste pious and sober widow talking about his mom

Such as thou dost love was now more buoyed up with hope So no less zealous in her weeping and mourning and she did not cease to bewail my case before you and all the hours of her supplication and so she she was a huge impact and and even when it comes to The way that Augustin would evangelize later on in life.

What's interesting is that he he has the same kind of spirit, you know, we're Monica You can tell she's very energetic she's very

Driven she's ambitious. I mean not in a negative sense either I mean, it's almost like what she has her mind on something in this case

Augustin's conversion Nothing else is nothing's going to stop that. You know, we know it's in Augustin certainly recognize that that's a

Gift that the Lord gives salvation But at the same time God does use means he uses people and in this case her

She was just a time dynamic personality and Augustin had that Augustin had that same thing

So whenever Augustin is converted and he's a bishop you'll see Augustin going out of his way on several occasions to go and and encourage friends to turn back to the

Lord and And on some occasions he risks life and limb and everything else for the sake of pursuing these people who are lost and that that in my mind is is one of Monica's greatest and most apparent personality traits, so Well, I don't know if this next issue

Reveals that you're a post -millennialist But you have a chapter on optimistic evangelism in Augustin tell us about that Well, and this you know, this is this is in response to The Pelagians of Augustin's day.

So at the end of his life Pelagius who was the the British He wasn't he wasn't a clergyman he was he was just an influential

Layman actually, but he was he was in England he was from England, but he had gone down to Rome and so, you know, he denied original sin

He thought that the will was completely neutral to choose either good or evil a lot of Arminian and Arminian doctrine comes out of Pelagius and so when

Augustin is later in his life Augustin is challenged by by this way of thinking and That so early on in Augustin's life, though You know, if you look back now,

I know there's there's several debates on whether or not these You know the early church if they were post millennial if they were all millennial if they were pre millennial

And in in my in my research you have a little bit of all of it Even though nobody's using those terms yet.

And so what's what's fascinating about Augustin though? Is that Augustin is living?

after let's see, so he's about 50 years after Constantine is the

Emperor in In in Rome, and of course whenever he becomes Emperor the official religion for the

Empire is Christianity Well, that is a that's that's a very optimistic thing You know, that's something that that is unheard of if you think that 300 years before that you had

Christians who were being Killed crucified maimed set on fire put into gladiators arenas

I mean these these guys were the scum of the earth and now 300 years later is the official religion of the entire

Roman Empire which is to say the the most powerful Empire at maybe the world had ever seen at that point.

So so here you have Augustin living on You know 40 years after this well that in itself is going to provide this this optimistic

Impulse or view of Christianity in my mind. Anyways, I think that that's just kind of natural however, even before that so if you look at like Athanasius Athanasius has has passages, so one of the books that really emphasize that inspired

Augustin in his conversion was the story of Athanasius wrote a biography of Antony the the the desert monk and when you read that there's a lot of this this idea about how

The devil has been defeated that Antony is is I mean, that's his mission out there in the desert you know, he's wrestling with with the devil with Satan and And and Satan is not victorious

And so when you start putting all of these things together for Augustin the

Millennium is now it's it's you know, it's it's to say that the Millennium began when

Christ came to earth and So you're having this this whole idea where Christ's kingdom is being advanced on earth

Throughout the world and they're seeing that with their eyes in real time So yeah, it goes without saying now now

I've you know, Kim Riddle Barger Barger. Yes Okay, so so he wrote a book called on millennialism and in that book and I quote it somewhere

He claims that Augustin was an Mill guy and then yeah,

Kim riddle Barger a case for on millennialism Yes, he's one of the team of the white horse and with Michael Horton.

Yes, that's right. That's right so in his book, you know, he He goes on to say that Augustin was

An all -millennialist and so others have claimed that he was a post -millennialist, you know

So I think what we can say for sure is that he was not a pre -millennialist in the at least later in life

Because he was that many changes classical pre -pre mill not not dispensational type But anyway, so I think it's a matter of interpretation in either way,

I think That those categories were not They weren't as a parent, you know, it wasn't debated as much it seems at least in the terms that we use 1 ,500 years ago, right and the dispensationalism didn't even exist till the 19th century

That's correct. Of course Millennialism did but not dispensational That's correct.

Yeah classical pre -millennial or historical pre -mill. Yeah, so that that was there But you know, I'll say this to the optimism

Here's the thing about the optimism if you compare let's say and this this flows from predestination also

So his optimism flowed from predestination, right? And usually so you we typically in Christianity we think of this as the opposite, you know

Whereas if you believe in in predestination that you're not going to you're not going to evangelize because what what's the need?

well, that's a straw man because the scriptures teach both Predestination and the necessity for Christians to evangelize

Yes, and so with Augustine if you think about the way he approached this The Pelagians for instance the way he approached it is is loosely in this way.

Okay, so if men have Libertarian freedom and if it was possible if it's possible to lose your salvation

Is there any guarantee? That anyone will actually choose to become

Christian and So Augustine didn't say that verbatim, but that's kind of what he's what what he's arguing.

So in other words When you're talking about who can who can be more confident with the gospel is somebody who knows that Christ Promises to build his church.

He promises that his sheep are going to hear his voice He has promised that he has died for his people and because of that I know when

I go out and evangelize or when I go out planted church, or you know I know that God has promised that he has people who are going to come and believe in the gospel, right?

The other on the other side you have more of an Arminian or Pelagian Outlook where you say

I have no guarantee from God that anybody will be converted because it's entirely

Entirely up to their freedom of choice number two if if you read scripture, you can see that and if you go out and evangelize you see that people are hostile in mind against the things of God the things of God are foolish to the

Unbeliever the preaching of the cross is foolish to those who are perishing And so in other words when I go out and evangelize

I don't have that confidence in the gospel I don't have that optimism in the gospel. So what do I have to do?

I have to insert certain gimmicks or methods into the gospel or in the case of the

Pelagians and this is something that even Secular historians like Peter Brown picks up on he notes that the

Pelagians were in their in their approach to people especially when it comes to how they spoke of the lost they come across as harsh and bitter and And I would

I would use the word shock and awe they have to use these things Why because they don't have as much confidence in the in the spoken word of the gospel to the lost and that's the difference right there in a big part between what

Augustine was doing and what Augustine was saying and how Augustine was seeing things in contrast to the

To the to the Pelagians who put salvation more upon the basis of man

Whereas Augustine was saying no, this is something God has already he's already done from eternity past He's already chosen who's going to be saved as the scriptures teach and so our job is to go and convey the gospel and he preached what we would call the the the open

Excuse me, the free offer of the gospel and and you can see that in a lot of his sermons that he's preaching that so in Other words, even though he believes in predestination.

He's certainly not what we would later call a hyper Calvinist or anything like that It's the opposite He's the opposite of that because he has the confidence that God is going to save people through the preaching of the gospel

Yeah, and if more missionaries and if more mission boards and denominations

Who sent out missionaries and believed as Augustine they would not be so They would not have so much of an an itchy trigger finger to remove

Missionaries from a mission field just because there's not instantaneous progress because Too often those who are non reformed get easily discouraged and Think they're wasting their time, but God says he promises in his word that Guarantees in his word that those from out of every tribe and tongue and people in nation

Will be worshiping the Lamb and therefore no matter where you go to evangelize eventually that spreading of the gospel is going to Bear fruit it might not even be in your lifetime

But eventually that it will bear fruit in some way it doesn't return void, right?

Yeah, and that's out Again going back to like I mentioned last segment the the influence on on the reformers

You know something I thought was humorous I was reading a very popular book actually called reformations by a guy named

Carlos Iyer and And I did a book review for it for founders years ago

But in this book, it's it's interesting because in this Carlos Iyer, he's I think he might be

Roman Catholic I don't know. He's certainly not a Protestant Christian, but in this book he said that Calvinist Did not just theorize they were also eager to overthrow false religion in any ruler who defended it and he also says

Calvinist tended to be aggressive not not not necessarily in their

Their behavior but as far as their outlook they tended to be aggressive impatient and bent on Continual growth and wherever they surfaced their activism would kick into high gear

And so it's interesting because this this guy, you know who in in so many ways He's very unsympathetic to the reform movement.

He comes around and he recognizes that these guys just like Augustine's doctrine teaches There is reason to be optimistic and hopeful that the gospel is going to spread

And as Iyer himself records Calvinism spreads to Scotland England Germany Hungary Poland and Lithuania within the span of 50 years after the

Reformation starts, you know So this is this is uh, this is the direct Lineage that that these guys they come from Augusta the lineage that they come from they come from his

His view of predestination all of were impacted by that at least on the reform side so it's just to say that and then you mentioned the the the people that have been that have been moved by The reform type of doctrines, you know, you're talking

Jonathan Edwards George Whitfield Hudson Taylor at an iron Judson Charles Spurgeon William Carey William Carey says this going back to your example as far as These these missionary boards that'll pull people off the mission field if they don't see, you know

X number of converts after five years Well, if that was the case William Carey would have been called back before he even saw anything

He says so William Carey who didn't see a single convert I think it was for his first six or seven years of First five and a half years of his ministry not a single

Indian convert But during that time he says I am very fruitless and almost useless

But the word and the attributes of God are my hope and my confidence and my joy and I trust that his glorious design will undoubtedly be answered and Amen Murray.

Yeah. Yeah, we we need a break We don't need one But if you'd like me to go to a break because we do have a final break we have to go to but I don't

Want I don't want to interrupt you in a mid -sentence. Oh, yeah So here here's Ian Murray, and if you haven't read the

Puritan hope he covers a lot of this in that book He says the obstacles were immense problems of poverty and illness overshadowed by the darker burden of a land

We're in Kerry's words 10 ,000 ministers would find scope for their powers were constantly with them

Through the first five and a half years. They saw not a single convert But then of course Kerry would go on to see revival several years later and you know

God ordained God appointed Revival not the not the stuff you see from Finney in the 1800s

This was this was the sovereignty of God moving on on Indians and and and they're still impacted by William Carey today to this very day and so Because of the the attributes of God which were the same things that Augustine himself believed in They were filled and fired up with this missionary zeal this confidence that the gospel was going to spread

Augustine had the same thing and it comes down to how they saw How they saw

God and in the way that scriptures communicate who God is to us in the scriptures He's a

God who's sovereign in salvation. He's a God who predestines He's a God who elects and that does not quench evangelistic zeal rather that that should fire us up and in fact

It also gives Those who believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace peace

When we know people who we loved and whom we evangelized perish without any knowledge on our part as to whether or not they embraced the gospel because if you're going to be consistent a

Logically consistent as an Arminian or a non -Calvinist you should never have a sleepless night for the rest of your life after a loved one dies without a a

Open profession of faith because you should be taking a lot of blame for that That person's eternal

Damnation if indeed you're going to be logically consistent, but we know That although we are commanded to evangelize it is

God who gives the increase It is God who changes the heart and we can truly be logically consistent when we rest in His decisions on these things when we don't either visibly or audibly hear somebody embrace the gospel and of course

Just because we don't visibly or audibly here see or hear somebody embrace the gospel doesn't doesn't automatically mean they didn't

Especially if we're not even there When they died there are people who wrongly automatically conclude.

Oh my My mother died in a lost condition and sometimes I'll ask them were you there when she died and they'll say no

No, how do you know? But did I make sense in anything that I said? Yeah, well, and also

I think so Augustin. He has a comment somewhere. It's in the book that he says

He Criticizes the Pelagians for harping on the terrors of hell not in the now

Augustin Augustin preached on hell quite a bit back There's one scene where it's almost like a

Jonathan Edwards sermon where people are shrieking and and that's from Augustus preaching but but he says with the

Pelagians they they they use it in a way to Almost guilt people into believing the gospel, right?

and so it's almost like you see the same thing today where where it is that kind of Get out of hell freak hard and Augustin goes on to say that You know, it's it if if your reason for coming to Christ is so that you can avoid hell

That's not coming to Christ. That's doing something else. And so his point is is that So, you know even how it if this affects even how we share the gospel because for Augustin preaching

Christ was enough and telling people this is this is the reason to believe in the gospel is because of Christ and and and So the benefits from believing in Christ, of course are okay

You get out of hell you do go to heaven but it's not to say that that is the ultimate reason why you should believe the gospel and so on many levels

Augustin was able to and really for the first time because this Pelagian Doctrine Pelagian doctrine was not it wasn't really on the forefront of anyone's mind

I don't in fact if you read a lot of these guys including BB Warfield and they'll say that this is it was entirely new in the

Christian realm. It's it's Gnostic. It's It's pagan, but in the Christian realm

This was the first time it was kind of used as a as a as a view of who human beings are human nature

And so Augustin's having to deal with that He goes through there and it really comes out in the approach to evangelism as far as the benefits of the biblical doctrine of Predestination and the depravity of man in in contrast to the

Pelagius doctrine Amen, and we're going to our final break If you do have a question for our guest

Ryan Denton on Augustin and his book Augustin the evangelist Please email it to us now because we're rapidly running out of time

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence

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That's liyfc .org Welcome back Ryan we have an anonymous listener who says

I Frequently evangelize my Roman Catholic family and friends and I know that from history

One of the ways that the Reformers had success winning converts out from Rome Was by proving that their understanding of the church fathers was false

And they proved that the church fathers agreed with them on the gospel Do you know of any short and concise books by?

Augustine that could be given to Roman Catholics that would prove that gosh that Augustine for the most part is on the side of Protestantism when we are referring to the gospel itself

Yeah, if you I mean, there's there's there's chunks.

I mean, it's a loaded question because you have it I would say this from the I think from the

Roman Catholic side What I what I like doing is to demonstrate that Whatever whatever document they want to put forward that that shows that Augustine is on their side

That same document will have things in there that reject or oppose the Roman Catholic doctrine in other areas and so Confessions is usually where people start and that that really is one of the just most beautiful Scripture saturated books that you'll ever that you'll ever read.

I mean, that's that's of course. It's not short and concise though It's not short and concise though, well, it's yeah,

I mean the confessions is going to be probably 250 -300 right just you know, nobody

Really wrote anything short Well, I think maybe maybe what the listener means is that you know

There have been publishers who have taken excerpts from those larger volumes and made them booklets

Yes. Yes, right. And well even you know, I would say even his sermons though He has really good sermons that if you read through a sermon, there's a sermon that you can find out there.

It's called I think it's called against the Pagans. Yeah, I'm almost positive. It's called against the

Pagans and if you read that sermon It's very evangelistic and it's it's

It's it's very gospel centered. And so that's one sermon off the top of my head that you might be able to find and in the book

There's a lot of References to footnotes and sermons so so you'll be able to to find that a little easier because with the guts and a number of sermons

I Don't I don't know who number them, but you know, it's like sermon 202 or something like that. So It's it's just one of those things

It's unfortunate. It's hard to find something short and concise from August in any ways

I'm Looking at my collection here and on the Trinity's thick, you know

The City of God is is thick there is a book called Augustine Augustine on prayer actually is not too long

I don't know if that would answer your question though as far as giving something Well Roman Catholic what you mentioned

Augustine and the Pagans tell us about the evangelism of Augustine to the Pagans in his society and How how that Reaction how the how was the reaction to that by the pagans?

Yeah, so this the City of God, which is which is Augustine's kind of a it's his it's his

Apex of everything he had worked on it. It took you know Decades to do and the entire book is written for pagans

It's for a pagan audience To demonstrate that because what was happening is that the pagans were blaming

Christians for the sack of Rome so at the end of at the end of Augustine's life, he

Roams actually sacked at the at the end of his life. And so And yet he's still optimistic so that's kind of neat but he writes that entire book to demonstrate

That the pagan religion was built on a faulty edifice. And so Augustine what he does is

Because he's so well versed in the pagan literature. He can pull out certain examples of this to demonstrate that That that pagan religion and pagan society is very immoral

It's very degenerate and so to blame Christianity for the sack of Rome is actually it's extremely wrongheaded

And in consequence the reason or in contrast the reason Rome was sacked was because Rome was was still too pagan

So although it had been Christian eyes, it certainly was not a Christian quote -unquote Christian society.

And so I kind of see it in a sense as a some of the seed of what would seeds of what would eventually become presuppositional apologetics type stuff where you're you're starting out with the presuppositions of your opponents and you're demonstrating the inconsistency or the error of that presupposition in Contrast to the

Christian Presupposition and so that's how he that's how he would go about dealing with pagans and it did help that he knew

Their their position so well I mean that was certainly one of his his his weapons that was very effective because he knew

What their arguments were he knew what they were going to say and how they how they thought in a sense because he had studied that literature

And he was he really was a genius. I mean, I think even before he was converted

He was he was on another level intellectually. And so whenever he was converted he was he was

By God's grace, you know able to to truly dismantle the pagan worldview

And anonymous email me your full name and mailing address so that we can have CVB BS Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship out to you a free copy of Augustan the evangelist by our guests today.

And once again We want to thank the greater heritage publishing for providing these books

We have one time for one last question that requires a fairly Short response.

We have another anonymous listener who says I'm involved in a debate with Brothers in Christ over the two kingdom doctrine and there are some that attribute this doctrine to Augustans two cities and I think that they are wrong in their application of that.

What are your thoughts? Yep, that's right. I agree. I Everything he just said

I agree with he so Augustan was Certainly an advocate of what

So it's complicated so what people mean when they say to Kingdom theory today is in my reading.

Anyways, it's not exactly the way that Augustan Approached it because Augustan when he talked about the two kingdom theory

He was talking about the fact that we as Christians are living rubbing elbows with right next door neighbors with People of the world and so you have two kingdoms living side by side within within the same sphere the same community

And so the thing is though is that? Augustan Certainly never saw that as a reason to retreat or a reason to kind of just cave to that other kingdom so it's

Christians, you know, it doesn't mean that that that we should be pacifist or we should just kind of Refrain from engaging in society or in the in in the political arena or anything like that.

In fact, it was the opposite And there's there's different nuances and reasons for that But I do have a whole chapter in the book devoted to that topic because that is

I know something that in certain respects is It's still an ongoing discussion today in our own context.

So Yeah, I've referred to the book for that just because the time well anonymous

You've also won a book if you provide for us your full name and mailing address And I want to thank you Ryan for another excellent interview