February 5, 2019 Show with Ronald L. Cammenga on “Saved by Grace: A Study of the Five Points of Calvinism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of February 2019 and I am delighted that we are going to be having a first -time guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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His name is Ronald L. Kamenga and he is professor of dogmatics and old testament studies at Protestant Reform Seminary in Wyoming, Michigan and today we are going to be addressing his book,

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Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism which he co -authored with Ronald Hanco and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ronald L.

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Kamenga. Thank you very much Chris, it's good to be with you and with your listeners this afternoon. And did

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I mispronounce your last name? Um, certainly, but that's all right. It's Kamenga, emphasis on the first syllable, but that's no problem.

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Okay, Kamenga, okay. Well, before we get into the discussion at hand, which is the theme of your book,

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Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism, I'd like to get, as we normally do with first -time guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I'd like to have a summary of your salvation testimony, what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Sure thing. I was raised in a

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Christian family by a father and mother who were devoted Reformed Christians and had the upbringing in the home, upbringing in church, and upbringing in Christian school all the way through my childhood and youth.

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That was also the case with my wife, though she's two years younger than I. We met when we were very young and were high school sweethearts, got married as soon as she got out of high school, and I in the third year of college.

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That was then the last part of college and through seminary. Since then

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I've had four congregations that I pastored in, and in 2005 took the appointment to serve as Professor of Dogmatics and Old Testament Studies at the

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Protestant Reform Seminary. Praise God. And the book that you have written,

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Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism. People may be wondering why there is a new book on the five points of Calvinism, because we who are

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Reformed know that there are many, both those that are centuries old and those that are written by contemporary authors.

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Some of them have become classics and have been widely used across the denominational spectrum amongst

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Reformed Christians. Can you tell us why you felt another book was needed or perhaps just would be valued because of something different that you're adding to the discussion?

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Sure, that's a good question. There are some very fine books, and as you said, some that have become classics too.

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I have used and still use a number of them and recommend them. This book was intended to be a book that would be saturated with scripture, text, as well as confessional references in order to take believers who are young in their faith, they might also be somewhat young as far as their age is concerned, but those who could devote time to a careful study of the five points of Calvinism and see all of the proof that exists in scripture, as well as the confessional statement, and either become thoroughly grounded in the truth that they were already convinced of, or hopefully for the first time be convinced of the doctrines of sovereign grace.

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Well, I think it would be wise for us, even though the majority of my listeners are

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Reformed Christians, I believe anyway, I don't know that 100 % with certainty, but I have a good level of confidence that that's the case because of those who write in and so on, but if you could let us know about what are the five points of Calvinism.

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I know that to start off with, many people wrongly think that John Calvin developed the acronym known as TULIP, which contains the five points of Calvinism, but that is not the case historically.

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Even though we believe as Reformed Christians Calvin believed in the five points, he did not develop them systematically in that acronym that we all have grown to know that includes total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance and preservation of the saints.

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And by the way, is there some kind of a background noise like a crackling or something? Is something being moved in your studio or wherever you are?

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I don't think so. Okay. Unless there's a mouse in here, it's only myself and my books. Okay.

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But if you could let us know about how these five points came to be known as they are today.

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I know it has something to do with the remonstrance, the Arminian revolt within the Reformed Church in the

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Netherlands, but if you could tell us more about that. Yes, indeed. This is a glorious year in which we're living.

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We're celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Synod of Dort, and it is the

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Synod of Dort that settled the Arminian controversy that was raging in the

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Reformed Churches in the Netherlands, and in doing so, formulated the

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Canons of Dort. The Canons of Dort were a response to the original five points, which were the five points of the

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Arminians or the Remonstrants. They encapsulated their five main tenets as regards the doctrines of grace.

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In those five points, the Synod of Dort met and responded to those five points by adopting the five points of the

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Synod of Dort, the five heads of doctrine that are contained in the Canons of Dort. You are absolutely correct that the acronym

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TULIP did not originate with the French Reformer, John Calvin, but was added later on as an overlay, but does nonetheless describe briefly the doctrines that he set forth and defended, particularly in the

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Institutes of the Christian Religion, the first great Reformed systematic theology, and then were later defended by the

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Synod of Dort. So that really is the background, and certainly this is an exciting year in which we can celebrate the anniversary of the

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Synod, there are conferences going on in many different places, I've given a number of speeches already, and our seminary, the

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Protestant Reformed Seminary, is going to be holding a conference coming up here in April, a three -day conference, so a very exciting time.

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Yeah, praise God, and just so our listeners can be aware of this, one of your colleagues who has written a book,

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Grace and Assurance, the message of the Canons of Dort, Martin McGown, he has been interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on that very book on the

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Canons of Dort, which you just mentioned, and if anybody would like to hear that interview later on, you can go to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive, ironsharpensironradio .com, and then go into Past Shows Podcast, and you can type in Canons of Dort, D -O -R -D -T, and by the way,

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Canons is spelt with two N's, C -A -N -O -N -S, not C -A -N -N -O -N -S, and you can learn more about that there.

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Martin did a phenomenal job with that interview. Isn't he an interesting fellow? He's way more interesting than I am.

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Martin was one of my first students when I came to the seminary here, and it wasn't long after he was into his seminary career that I emphasized to him, you must write, you must preach, but you must write.

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I'm grateful that he has the opportunity and is able to use his gifts in that area.

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Yes, well, would you say, before we go into the five points, and I think that even though we have addressed this subject on my program many times, it is always,

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I think, a good idea to go over them again because they are so controversial in the body of Christ.

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There are so many people who are confused by Calvinism and have a caricature, a stereotype, and continue slandering the teachings of Calvinism and those who teach them.

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But would you not say that the five points of Calvinism, or even the theology known as Calvinism or Reformed Theology, the doctrines of sovereign grace, the doctrines of free grace sometimes they are called, they basically highlight the depravity or the hopelessness and the helplessness of mankind and highlight and exalt the power, the sovereignty, the authority, the righteousness, and the holiness of God.

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They really shine a beacon on these two truths which are very often, perhaps even unconsciously, blurred by other

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Christians outside of the Reformed faith. Many Christians, unconsciously, of course,

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I don't think anyone would do this intentionally, but they diminish somewhat the authority of God, at least in their teaching.

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Obviously, nobody can diminish the authority of God, but in their teaching they do. And they give man more credit than he deserves.

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They soften or lessen the sinfulness, the wickedness, the helplessness and hopelessness of man and make him more worthy, if you will, of being saved through his own power of thought or his actions and so on.

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Absolutely. For that reason, the book, Saved by Grace, does not launch into the five points of Calvinism, beginning with total depravity, although we know that that's not the order of the canons of Doric.

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The canons begins with eternal predestination. But the first chapter in the book is on the absolute sovereignty of God, and that is the great truth that the five points of Calvinism serves to illuminate.

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The spotlight is on God and on the sovereignty of God and the unworthiness and the inability of man.

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If we do justice to what Scripture says about who God is, then the teachings of Calvinism and the doctrines of grace are going to make sense, going to make sense.

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Now, you said something in the beginning that I think is very important. As you probably know, those who are outside of the

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Reformed faith, depending upon how nasty they are or how aggressively opposed they are to what we believe, a very common accusation is that we are following the teachings of men and not the teachings of God and the inerrant,

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God -breathed words of Scripture. This is one of the reasons you wrote the book, is it not, to prove that this is far from the truth, that those who are in the

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Reformed faith have based everything according to the

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Scriptures? Obviously, no man on earth is infallible, but that is the intention, and I think that is what the

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Reformers and those who are their heirs have largely done successfully in exegeting the

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Scriptures and coming up, unrooting, discovering, unearthing and shining a light on these truths that centuries ago had been buried by the works righteousness and superstitions and idolatry of Rome and had been thankfully uncovered by God's grace through the

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Reformers and others. But if you could continue on from that train of thought there. Yes, for sure.

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If we maintain that these are only the teachings of men, then there's no motivation to preserve them, to pass them on to our children, to defend them, certainly not to lay down our lives for.

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These are not merely the teachings of men, although good and godly men have taught these truths all the way back to the apostles and to Augustine, but clearly these are the teachings of Holy Scripture, and that's the underlying premise too.

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That's the given of the Reformed faith that Scripture is the infallible, the inerrant, the authoritative

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Word of God. We place ourselves humbly before Holy Scripture.

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We say with Samuel, speak Lord, for thy servant heareth. And we simply echo what the

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Scriptures themselves teach. Now, obviously, I think we should separate fact from fiction, because obviously, even from what

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I just said, the doctrines of Reformed theology and the specific teachings of the five points of Calvinism have been maligned, twisted, distorted, slandered.

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Starting with total depravity, many wrongly think that in that teaching with that very scary name, total depravity, that we are saying that mankind is as bad as he could be.

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And that's obviously not true. We believe that there is much restraint taking place through the sovereignty of God that prevents men from being evil, as evil as they could be.

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Not only would we not be able to leave our homes if man were as evil as he could be, we wouldn't be safe in our own homes.

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We wouldn't even be safe alone in a room by ourselves. Sure. But that's not what we're teaching, are we?

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That's correct. Certainly, every man does not commit every sin.

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And although we would want to distinguish ourselves from those who maintain that there is a gracious work of God in the hearts even of ungodly and unbelieving men, an aspect of God's common grace, that God graciously withholds them from doing evil and imparts to them an ability to do good, a certain kind of good.

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We would want to say that the circumstances of one's life, the means that are at his disposal, the time of life in which he lives, all of that enters into the expressions of man's sinfulness, the manifestations of his sinfulness.

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And throughout history to the end of time, there's a development of mankind as a race in sin, so that finally with the end of Christ and his kingdom, the cup of iniquity of man will be made full.

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But still, from a spiritual point of view, the heart of every man is totally depraved.

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This would be prior to the regeneration of those who are the elect. Absolutely.

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As man is in himself and of himself, outside of grace, he is a totally depraved sinner.

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And going back to where I asked the question about God's restraint, obviously

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I know that there is a debate amongst performed Christians about common grace, but we see even in Scripture how

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God both hardened Pharaoh's heart and softened it. So, I mean, there was a restraint that God somehow supernaturally was involved in with Pharaoh, would you not say?

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I would not necessarily disagree with that.

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The big disagreement that I would have is that there's some operation of God's grace, because God is gracious towards those who are outside of Jesus Christ, those who are reprobate.

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That's where I would draw the line. In many cases, that would be a demonstration of God's grace towards his people, even when the wicked, the reprobate, are having their hearts softened enough to be restrained in their evil.

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That is a blessing for the elect. Sure, exactly. God uses even that for the service of his church and the good of his people.

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Now, when it comes to the fact that we are conceived with this condition, it has been known also as original sin, but total depravity is a more clear definition of what that entails, am

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I right? Yes, for sure, but you cannot separate those two. The doctrine of total depravity demands the doctrine of original sin, and original sin which is our sinfulness in Adam accounts for our present total depravity.

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Now, how do you respond to those either who are at least semi -Pelagian or who deny original sin, they deny total depravity?

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They may not even be professing Christians, because even secular humanists and those outside of Christendom have said, how dare can

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God permit babies to be born with this condition when they did not fall in the garden?

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How do you respond to that kind of accusation or question? Um, I first call attention to the biblical proof, the biblical proof from Romans and from first Corinthians that teaches very clearly that in Adam we have sinned, and on account of Adam's sin, not only is

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Adam judged, but we are judged who are in Adam.

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And then, after establishing from scripture the biblical passages,

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Romans 5, first Corinthians chapter 11, that make reference in one way or another to original sin,

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I try to bring it home by an analogy or a comparison. And this isn't far -fetched because the

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Bible talks about Adam as our father, our first father. Fathers are the legal heads and representatives of their children, and that's what makes fatherhood such an awesome responsibility too.

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You are responsible for these little ones, and what you do has significant ramifications for them, so that a father may willfully take his family, including his children, out of the church and separate his children from the means of grace, his children having no say about that, and they still come under the consequences of that awful decision that their father made.

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There are all kinds of examples from everyday life of this representative headship idea.

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Our president is our head, whether you voted for him or not, whether you agree with his policies or not, he's still the president of the

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United States, and when he declares war on some country, we are at war.

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He is not at war. We are all at war with whatever country it may be.

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That's just the nature of legal headship, and that's how God constituted

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Adam, and Adam knew it too. He knew that as the first father of the human race, his decisions for good or bad would have consequences for his children.

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Yes, and again in regard to the actual phrase total depravity, we are saying in summary that every aspect of mankind from the moment of his conception is depraved, it's enslaved to sin, and going to free will, which

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I think is connected to this in the debate anyway, Arminians and those outside of the reformed faith, and perhaps even hyper -Calvinists or those who misunderstand

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Calvinism, perhaps they are new to these things and yet profess to believe them, they will say that man does not have any kind of freedom with his will, which would imply that God is forcing man against his will to sin.

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Now, would you not agree that man does have a free will in as much as he is free to follow and do that which pleases him?

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The problem is, outside of regeneration, outside of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, he cannot please

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God in the flesh, as the scriptures even say in the book of Romans, that man cannot please

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God in the flesh, so therefore he is free to do what pleases him, but what pleases him is not that which necessarily pleases

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God, and of course he cannot please God in offering

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God a faith prior to his regeneration that would save him. Yes, exactly.

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Certainly it is the case that from a psychological point of view, man is free.

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I come to the red light and I make the decision to stop, or not to stop, and to run the red light and risk the policeman who may be sitting in the parking lot and sees me lighting me up, but there is a decision that I must take and our life is full of those kinds of decisions, but what we are saying when we deny man's free will is that from a spiritual point of view, from the point of view of choosing the good, choosing

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God, choosing Christ and choosing salvation, from a spiritual ethical point of view, our wills are bound.

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Bound in the fetters of sin as a consequence of our fall into sin, and the language of scripture makes that very plain too, especially the language that refers to our spiritual condition in and of ourselves as dead,

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Ephesians 2 verse 1, you hath he quickened who are dead in trespasses and sins, as well as the language of renewal,

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God's gracious work of salvation in us, which ascribes our willing to the work of Christ, I think of Philippians 2 verse 13, for his

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God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

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I think of Romans 9 as well, where the apostle says, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy, verse 16 of Romans 9.

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So from a spiritual and moral point of view, the will of man is sinful and depraved.

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Willingly he chooses his sin. God doesn't force him, but all of the choices that he makes, he makes willingly.

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But the choices that he makes willingly are all evil and sinful. Now how would you respond to the fact that even those who are lost, even the worst among us who are lost, do at times do wonderful things, wonderful things and an earthly and human understanding of what wonderful means.

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You have unbelievers, you may even have atheists or members of all kinds of bizarre false religions who are faithful to their spouses, whereas Christians may fall into adultery and other abominable sins.

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You have just ongoing acts of benevolence and kindness and compassion.

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You will even have men who are without Christ laying down their lives in the battlefield for their comrades or for their nation.

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You know, you have all these kinds of things going on, and those who are outside of the Reformed faith, or perhaps outside of Christianity in general, would say, well, how could you say that these aren't good things that they are doing?

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What Augustine long ago said about all these things, glittering vices, glittering vices.

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That's how Augustine described the good works, the seemingly good works of the ungodly.

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There are all kinds of motivations, all kinds of wrong motivations.

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It might be the fact that one is faithful to his spouse because he has his reputation, his name in the community or even in the church as a member of the visible church that he's concerned about and wants to maintain.

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Or it may be that he's afraid of the consequences that God visits upon those who live licentious lives, including all of the diseases that they contract today.

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Or it may be that in giving large sums of money to this cause or to that cause, he's motivated by the honor and the praise of men.

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Or it may be avoidance of some terrible consequence. I don't murder my neighbor because I don't want to go to the electric chair or go to jail.

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But if I am not motivated out of love for God, the first and great commandment, and love for my neighbor for God's sake, what

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I do, no matter what I do, is sin. Yeah, you're adding a very important element in here.

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It's doing these things for God's sake because a person may truly love his wife, who is not a believer, but that makes his wife an idol if he does not love

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God first and foremost above her. Excellent point. That's exactly right.

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Right. And a person could actually love the poor and want to bestow upon them food and clothing and housing and money and all kinds of things.

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But if they do not have God as a motivation, the poor are an idol. You could use any circumstance that you just mentioned and more, and it might even, in a human perspective, be a perfectly righteous and wonderful motivation that they have.

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But if they don't have God as a motive, they have made those things or those people idols.

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Yes. The Apostle Paul says in Romans 14, verse 23, that whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

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Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Amen. We have to go to our first break right now.

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If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ronald Kaminga, I'm sorry,

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Kaminga. If you have a question of your own about the five points of Calvinism, about salvation by grace, give us an email.

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Even if you oppose what our guest is saying, in fact, this might sound odd, but I get discouraged sometimes that I never hear from people who disagree with us.

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I never have that problem. But even if you disagree with our guest, but even if you're not a

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Christian, if you are a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an atheist, an agnostic, a

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Swedenborgianist, send in an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com with your question.

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Please always remember to give us your city and state or country of residence. And if you want to remain anonymous because there's some personal and private reason why you are asking the question, we will grant your request.

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But if it's not a personal, private matter, please at least give us your city and your state and your country of residence.

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Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with our guest Ronald Kaminga and our discussion on Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism.

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You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

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Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

40:14

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

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That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

40:36

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

40:41

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Ronald Kaminga, and he is one of two authors of the book

40:52

Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism, published by the Reform Free Publishing Association.

41:00

And why don't you tell our listeners something about your co -author, Ronald Hanco. Ronald Hanco is my brother -in -law.

41:09

We also graduated together from the seminary, both of us in the same year, and both of us had his father,

41:19

Herman Hanco, as our professor for Church History and New Testament. Ron married my sister, my younger sister,

41:28

Nancy. He's recently retired from the ministry and has settled in Spokane, Washington.

41:39

Well, we hope to have one day Ronald Hanco on the program with us as well. If you want to do that, you would enjoy it.

41:46

Yes, and let me repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us with a question for our guest today,

41:53

Ronald Kaminga. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

41:58

and we do have quite a number of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you.

42:04

But before we go to those, I just wanted to get a little bit further into the five points of Calvinism.

42:11

The next in the acrostic of Tulip, the way it's more commonly known, as you said earlier, it's not the exact order of the

42:19

Canons of Dort, but it is the more well -known version according to the the acrostic

42:27

Tulip. And you, for Unconditional Election, also have a lot of misconceptions wrapped up in that truth.

42:40

You have people thinking that we believe that God is making haphazard decisions on whom he is choosing to receive eternal life, as if he is a blindfolded person at a buffet or something and just taking things that he doesn't even know what he is taking and slapping them on his plate.

43:03

That just because we believe that there is nothing worthy of God's love innately in us, there is nothing lovable or warranting our election and salvation, nothing at all.

43:21

As we already said, we are conceived totally depraved. Just because that is true, there are reasons that may be known only to God why he is choosing some over others.

43:37

But what we know for certain is that it is not because those he chooses are better or holier or more obedient or more lovely than others.

43:47

Am I stating this correctly? Absolutely. That's the unconditionality of election, that adjective means distress, that there's nothing in those who are elected that would move

44:02

God to choose them rather than someone else. I always emphasize that election is not selection.

44:12

When my wife goes to the grocery store and goes to the produce department, maybe she sees a huge display of apples and she selects certain apples to take home to our family and leaves the others there.

44:29

And the basis of her choice may be size, may be color, may be the fact that there are no bruises in it.

44:36

But that's selection and that's based on something in the apple itself that moves her to make that choice.

44:43

That's not election. There's nothing in us, absolutely nothing. And that means that we must be humble before all men, even we who have the assurance of our election.

44:58

We have nothing to boast of before anyone, nothing.

45:05

And having said that though, going back to my statement that we are accused of believing in a

45:12

God that randomly, without purpose, without reason, chooses his elect at the expense of others.

45:22

We are not saying that, even though we are saying we're not worthy of being elected. There's nothing good in us that would make us the object of his affection.

45:33

But there is reason behind his choices that we may never know. Am I right on that?

45:39

I would agree with that. I always say that the reason is eternally hid in God's heart.

45:47

He is not playing a cosmic game of eeny, meeny, miny, moe. I don't know if you're familiar with that child's game.

45:53

No, absolutely not. This is not, from God's point of view, a game of chance.

46:01

Not at all. And this once again highlights the unworthiness of man, the sinfulness of man, the wickedness of man, the hopelessness and helplessness of man, and the glory, the righteousness, the power, the mercy, the love and grace of God in his choosing us.

46:22

Yes, absolutely. We have a first -time listener, or should

46:28

I say first -time questioner, he may have listened for years and I've just been unaware of it until now, but he's a first -time questioner,

46:35

Christopher in Canton, Georgia. And Christopher writes, let me preface my question by stating that I believe that my salvation is a result of God electing me.

46:46

I do not believe I would have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior on my own. For this,

46:51

I'm highly grateful and humbled. Now, I am trying to figure out how to pull the exact meaning from John chapter 6 verse 37.

47:01

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

47:08

I've seen this verse broken down as follows. God's responsibility, all that the

47:16

Father gives me will come to me, man's responsibility, and the one who comes to me

47:22

I will certainly not cast out. The idea is that we are not all robots that God programs to follow him.

47:28

How are we to interpret this scripture without towing the line of free will? I'll read the scripture once again.

47:39

I'm going to read it to King James, if that's all right, it's no significant difference between the two.

47:45

But in the King James, it's all that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me

47:52

I will in no wise cast out. I think what must be emphasized first is that in the preaching of the gospel,

48:00

God calls everyone who hears the preaching of the gospel to come to him.

48:07

That's the demand, the command that he places before everyone who hears the preaching of the gospel.

48:15

At the same time, God uses that command that comes to us in the preaching of the gospel, what we may call the call of the gospel, actually to work in the elect so that they come.

48:33

It's the means by which God works within them in order that they come.

48:42

And then, coming, which coming is the fruit of God's drawing of them, coming to him, they are received by him, not cast out in no wise cast out, but received by him and saved and blessed.

49:03

Well, in fact, Christopher ends with something that is, we've already addressed this in affirming this, but my understanding is that no one no one would no one would ever come to God without him giving them to Jesus.

49:24

Absolutely. Right, and that is basically a truth that flows out of total depravity, which we were already discussing before.

49:36

Yep. Well, thank you, Christopher, and if you can please give me your full mailing address in Canton, Georgia, we're going to have cvbbs .com,

49:46

our sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, mail you a free copy of Saved by Grace, a

49:53

Study of the Five Points of Calvinism by Ronald Cumminga and Ronald Hanco, and that is through the generosity of our friends at the

50:03

Reform Free Publishing Association, and also the generosity of cvbbs .com

50:08

because they are sparing both you and Iron Trip and Zion Radio the shipping costs, so that will be shipped to you as soon as we get your mailing address, and we thank you for joining us on the program today.

50:23

Another thing about unconditional election that actually baffles me because many of our brothers who are believers in the inerrancy of scripture who deny unconditional election, they somehow, and for some reason that it is beyond my comprehension, accept that truth in regard to the unconditional election of the nation of Israel in the old covenant.

50:57

There seems to be no reason why one should find that completely acceptable as God's right to do as the sovereign king and creator of all the universe, and how it somehow becomes horrible and immoral and unbecoming of God to do this in the new covenant, which of course his divine election of those who will be in heaven with him for eternity has always been in operation even in the old covenant, but as far as the physical way it was demonstrated with Israel, men seem to be fine with that, but not with the unconditional election of those who will be with him for eternity.

51:37

Can you comment on that at all? I wouldn't comment on it except to agree with it.

51:43

I would. I quite often say this to people who stumble over this, at least are troubled by this to some extent, the righteousness, the justice of God in doing this.

51:57

My response to them is there were really two possibilities that God could have done.

52:06

I'm speaking as a fool, if you will. I'm speaking hypothetically. One is that God could have chosen to save everybody.

52:15

He could have. He's God. He could have. He didn't. But he could also have chosen to reject everybody.

52:26

The entire race fallen in Adam. He wasn't under obligation to choose anybody.

52:33

So why did he choose some? Not all, but not cast the entire human race away.

52:43

Why was it his good pleasure to choose some? And I'm convinced on the one hand to demonstrate his love and mercy, but on the other hand also to maintain his justice and the demonstration of his justice.

53:04

So I think that's something that we should think about, especially those who want to object to God's making this distinction among human beings.

53:17

Well, now we have to go to our midway break. And please be a little bit patient with us because this is a longer than normal break that we take because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida uses this elongated break to air their own commercials and public service announcements in order to localize

53:34

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to the Lake City, Florida area. So please use this time wisely. Write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them.

53:47

Because when you do that, you will likely extend the fact that these organizations and ministries can remain in existence.

53:57

And that will subsequently result in Iron Trip and Zion Radio living a longer life because we depend upon the advertising dollars and the benevolent donations of our donors.

54:13

So please listen carefully to the advertisements and write down the information.

54:18

Also write down questions for our guest Ronald Cumming about the five points of Calvinism and also about salvation by grace in general.

54:29

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

54:35

Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back right after these messages from our sponsors. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Trip and Zion Radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough you know

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G for group, dot org forward slash podcast. Hello, my name is

01:01:52

James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

01:02:03

Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

01:02:09

Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

01:02:21

It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the degree.

01:02:30

This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant

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01:02:46

God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

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Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and his church as a pastor? Why not consider

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IRBS Theological Seminary? You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org.

01:03:05

That's irbsseminary .org, two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon.

01:03:11

God bless you. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

01:03:21

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:03:27

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

01:03:33

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

01:03:39

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

01:03:48

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:03:54

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

01:04:10

.nyc. Have a great day. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

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Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

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We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com. That's Solid -Ground -Books .com

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and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm Pastor Billy Lindhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas, and I'm thrilled to have joined the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio family of sponsors. We fully subscribe to the Second Lenten Baptist Confession of Faith as a faithful summary of the most vital biblical truths.

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01:06:34

That's s g b c s a dot com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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That's the Basics of Faith Booklets at half price when you mention Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And in addition to ordering online at cvbbs .com,

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I heard about you from Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Obviously, if you're calling them at the toll -free number, you could do that verbally, but please make sure all of our sponsors know that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, so that they will know that our listeners are patronizing them and helping them to stay in existence, and that's going to help us stay in existence.

01:09:29

And we are back with our guest, Ronald Kaminga, and we are discussing his book,

01:09:37

Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism that he co -authored with Ronald Hanco.

01:09:43

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:09:50

And we have a listener from Hawaii, I believe this is another first -time questioner, and he is from Na 'alehu,

01:10:02

Na 'alehu, he spelled it phonetically for me, Na 'alehu, Hawaii. His name is

01:10:07

Gary, and he asks this question, why do you think many pastors of Baptist and non -denominational churches not only do not teach the doctrines of grace, but also believe they are not true?

01:10:20

Well, first of all, Gary, I'm a Reformed Baptist, so I take exception to your question, but I'm sure that even

01:10:27

Professor Kaminga would agree that there are many pato -Baptist denominations that don't believe in or teach the doctrines of grace either.

01:10:36

That is for sure. But if you could answer the question, it may involve some mind -reading on your part, but I mean, the question could better be,

01:10:46

I don't want to insult my listener in Hawaii to say he better be asked in a different way, but perhaps we could just summarize this or make it a more broadly understood question by asking why is it that there are many who profess to be

01:11:06

Christian, who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, who many of them have memorized great portions of Scripture, they live godly lives, they are committed to Christ and serving

01:11:20

Him faithfully, and on and on we could go. Many of them would put us to shame in regard to the holiness of their lives and their living and so on, in one way or another, but for some reason, they do not believe in the doctrines of grace.

01:11:36

Now, obviously, there's not one answer as to why this is true, but do you have any answers that you might want to provide our listener?

01:11:44

In connection with the illustration that you gave, I think that the general reason would be the unpopularity of those doctrines and how offensive the doctrines of grace are to the sensibilities of modern man.

01:12:03

What? I don't choose here? What? God is sovereign over me?

01:12:09

And those sorts of things just are not popular today. So the pressure from the culture and from the world in which we live,

01:12:19

I think, is always against the doctrines of sovereign grace that salvation is of God and of God alone.

01:12:28

Amen. And, of course, you have added to the equation that what we believe as Reformed Christians is very often distorted.

01:12:37

Many pastors and teachers out there, and also radio and television personalities who have

01:12:46

Christian programs of one kind or another, will very often provide caricatures and slanderous ideas about Reformed theology and the doctrines of grace.

01:13:00

You also have, again, the element within our own circles of hyper -Calvinists who don't do us any favors.

01:13:08

But that, I think, is a minority of people today. But it's interesting, though, and I'm sure that you have encountered this as well.

01:13:22

In fact, I think it was J .I. Packer that said that all Christians are Calvinists on our knees.

01:13:27

It's very interesting how people who, on paper or according to their confession of faith or their church constitution or whatever you might call their means of communicating a summary of what they believe, even if they are

01:13:45

Arminian or non -Reformed or anti -Calvinist in those regards, they very often will behave and speak and believe exactly like Calvinists in certain times of their lives, perhaps even especially when they're going through a crisis in their lives and they know that God is in control over all things.

01:14:04

And it's interesting. You'll hear very often at funerals where an

01:14:10

Arminian pastor may be speaking or perhaps the loved ones of the deceased who are

01:14:15

Arminian or non -Reformed, they will speak of the fact that God took that person home at the time of his own choosing, you know, that kind of a thing, where you're saying to yourself, wow, if this person is logically consistent, they shouldn't be saying that.

01:14:30

But isn't it true that very often those among us who say that they're not Calvinist sometimes believe and act like they are?

01:14:40

I think that in spite of themselves, it's almost as though they're confronted by the absolute sovereignty of God in every aspect of their life, and they cannot but to some extent own up to the truth that God is absolutely sovereign.

01:14:58

For the Christian, why pray? How can you pray? Why would you pray?

01:15:05

I think I would be done praying if I did not believe that the God to whom I am praying is a sovereign

01:15:12

God, able and willing to grant my requests. Yes, I just, not long, well, probably, how many years ago was it?

01:15:21

I don't know, four or five years ago, I saw this pastor really attacking

01:15:30

Calvinism in a juvenile way, in an unbiblical way.

01:15:35

Obviously, if you're attacking Calvinism, it has to be unbiblical, but in a way that was nonsensical, and he was just filled with fiery speech and rhetoric against the doctrines of grace, and the thing that I thought was kind of humorous, whether I should have felt that way or not,

01:15:54

I did think it was kind of humorous, is that when he sat down, the pastor of the church where he was speaking ascended into the pulpit, declaring what a wonderful message that he heard, that message was, how wonderful and how blessed he was by hearing it, and then when he concluded in prayer, he began saying things like,

01:16:17

God, can you please open the eyes of the blind among us? Can you please unstop the deaf ears of those that do not hear the gospel?

01:16:26

Please, please remove hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh that they may believe upon you.

01:16:32

It was as if the man didn't even realize that he was praying exactly like a Calvinist.

01:16:39

So those things do happen. I think so, too, that what I confront a lot, besides the misinformation and the caricatures of the

01:16:47

Reformed faith, to my mind, sadly, I see a lot of that in western

01:16:53

Michigan here where we're located, a lot of Reformed and Presbyterian churches, but there's a lot of ignorance out there, just basic ignorance on the doctrines of grace.

01:17:04

When I start talking to people about the doctrines of sovereign grace, then often their response is, why am

01:17:13

I not hearing this? Why is not the scripture being open to me in the preaching and teaching of my own congregation, and these things being set forth?

01:17:24

And my answer is, yeah, why not? And would you not say also that just as God elects whom he chooses, he saves whom he chooses, he regenerates those whom he chooses,

01:17:45

God, even amongst those who are his elect, those who are regenerate believers, he does bless some with an increased level of sanctification when it comes to their understanding of the

01:17:59

Bible, and for some reason others are not that deep into their understanding.

01:18:07

Basically what I'm saying is, even among the regenerate, there are different levels of understanding of the word, and of course with sanctification, unlike our justification, with sanctification we do participate.

01:18:21

We cannot be lazy or avoid reading the scriptures and so on, but even when we discover these things that are the truths of the doctrines of sovereign grace,

01:18:32

Reformed theology, Calvinism, however you want to label them, don't we owe God the credit and the glory and the praise for even that?

01:18:40

Absolutely. He opened our eyes, he softened our hearts, he opened our ears so that we hear.

01:18:49

Absolutely. So I guess that's the best we can answer your question,

01:18:54

Gary, and by the way, if you please would give me your full mailing address in Hawaii, you have also won a free copy of Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism by our guests today,

01:19:07

Ronald Kamenga and Ronald Hanco, compliments of our friends at the Reformed Free Publishing Association and also our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will be shipping the book out to you.

01:19:18

And by the way, for our first -time questioners, you're also receiving a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

01:19:27

NASB who sponsor this program and have been one of our most faithful sponsors ever since the inception of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:19:34

Thank you very much for the excellent question, Gary. And we do have some more listeners here.

01:19:41

And before I take any more listeners, let's just move on. We do have a number of people waiting, but let me just move on so we make sure that we get all five points into the discussion today.

01:19:53

Limited atonement, which is also called definite atonement, in particular redemption and substitutionary atonement, even though Arminians today also use the phrase substitutionary atonement,

01:20:07

I do not believe that they can logically and consistently use that phrase if they believe that there will be men and women and children in hell, because if Christ died for our substitute, why on earth would anyone go to hell?

01:20:23

Of course, you and I believe that he did die as a substitute for his people, and therefore they certainly will not go to hell.

01:20:32

But if you could, this seems to be the most despised of the doctrines of Calvinism by those who are outside of our circles of fellowship.

01:20:44

And I really think that it is rooted in unconditional election, even though they may say they are most horrified by the concept of limited atonement.

01:20:57

Perhaps we could start off by the word limited, which actually results in a lot of confusion.

01:21:04

Arminians and those who are outside of Reformed theology will insinuate or accuse us in believing that somehow

01:21:12

God's power is limited. But ironically, Charles Spurgeon said that the Arminian truly believes in a limited atonement because it is limited in its power.

01:21:21

It does not save all that it is intended to save, where the Calvinist only believes that it's limited according to the scope for which it is intended.

01:21:31

The number of people for which it is intended is limited, but that is the only thing limited about it.

01:21:36

Because it's unlimited in power, it saves everyone for whom it was intended to save. Would that be a correct way of summarizing that issue?

01:21:44

Yeah, absolutely. All are saved for whom

01:21:50

Christ died, and those for whom he died are infallibly brought to salvation.

01:21:58

His death is efficacious. It's saving. Amen. And by the way, we have done other programs where we have dedicated the entirety of the two hours to limited atonement or particular redemption or definite atonement, substitutionary atonement.

01:22:17

You can look those up on the archives of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We do have, let's see, we have

01:22:26

Gary in, let's see, where is Gary from? He is from Asheboro, North Carolina.

01:22:35

And I have to enlarge Gary's email because the font is microscopically small.

01:22:43

While I'm doing that, if you'd like to send in a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:22:49

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:22:59

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

01:23:05

Okay, so Gary in Asheboro, North Carolina writes, Hi Brother Chris, another great show.

01:23:10

As a Reformed Baptist, I adhere to the five points of Calvinism. I know had the true,

01:23:17

I don't know what that means. He has a typo here. I know had the true and living

01:23:22

God not called me, I would still be in my sins and am amazed he would elect a sinner such as I.

01:23:33

When I look at the genealogy of Christ, it surprises me the family tree personalities, how could one lock, how can one look at that alone and not believe in the doctrine of election?

01:23:48

I'm assuming he's talking about Rahab the harlot and others that are in the lineage there of how

01:23:54

God has not only chosen his elect from out of the most pious and religious and outwardly righteous of people, but he has chosen people who have been among the most scandalous of sinners.

01:24:12

Isn't that a fascinating aspect to consider? It is a fascinating aspect.

01:24:19

I've done quite a bit of work on the genealogies, have taught some

01:24:24

Bible studies on the genealogies of Christ and preach a number of sermons on the genealogies.

01:24:30

Someone once said, and that piqued my interest long ago on the genealogies, I was in high school

01:24:36

I think when I heard this in a sermon, that Christ's genealogy was the kind of genealogy that you would pay someone a hundred dollars to discover who was in your background, who your ancestors were, and then when they told you, you would pay them $200 to make sure they told nobody else.

01:24:58

And that's the kind of genealogy that Jesus has. It's the scandalous of the earth, the harlot, the good for nothing, which underscores the sovereignty of God's grace and underscores election.

01:25:19

So brother in Asheboro, North Carolina, give us your full mailing address and you'll also receive a free copy of Saved by Grace, A Study of the

01:25:26

Five Points of Calvinism, and that will be shipped out to you by cvbbs .com. We have an anonymous listener.

01:25:35

Hello Chris, I have a question for your guest. As touched on already, if a certain religious person who is known for their benevolence is helping the poor and downcast, who professes

01:25:45

Christ but may be doctrinally in error, who is to judge whether that person is elect or not?

01:25:52

Isn't it the Lord? Isn't it the Lord who knows those who are his?

01:25:58

I am not saying that their good works, whatever the motives are, are saving them. Isn't it

01:26:03

God who is the one who sees their heart and alone can save? What do you say about that please?

01:26:10

Yes, I mean we can't judge who are the elect until they are regenerate, right?

01:26:16

I mean as far as even among the lost, we cannot say to a lost person, you are definitely not of the elect, because as we already just said, the genealogy of Jesus Christ contains people who were the worst of scandalous sinners who later came to faith, and even that happens today.

01:26:36

You have people on death row who proved themselves eventually to be one of God's elect because they got saved while they were in prison and repented.

01:26:44

But anyway, if you could respond to our anonymous listener. Repeat what his question is for me, one.

01:26:53

Let's see, if a certain religious person who is known for their benevolence in helping the poor and downcast, who professes

01:27:00

Christ but may be doctrinally in error, who is to judge whether that person is elect or not?

01:27:06

Sure, and I would agree entirely with your comments there. We don't judge the heart, and we certainly don't want to judge more harshly than we ought to those who may not be as doctrinally pure as we are, who may be even immature

01:27:28

Christians or novices in the faith, developing in their understanding of the truth of the

01:27:37

Word of God. And I'm with you on that one. We leave that to the

01:27:42

Lord. That's the Lord's judgment. Don't you think that the question would perhaps be different if she had not used the word elect?

01:27:50

Because we are to use proper judgment regarding those who are, whether or not they are regenerate.

01:27:59

Even if we're wrong on that issue, we are to discipline people in the body of Christ who are behaving like they are unregenerate, and we are, if necessary, to excommunicate them if they don't repent.

01:28:12

I mean, we are to treat people according to their behavior as to whether or not they are believers and brothers and sisters.

01:28:19

But that is a separate issue from election, because even those people, if we cast them out, may prove to be one of the elect if they return to God in humble humility and repentance.

01:28:34

I agree entirely. And those who, in the body of Christ, confessing

01:28:40

Christians, nevertheless show themselves by their confession or walk to be living in disobedience to Christ, His commandments, denying

01:28:49

His truth, then they certainly are the objects of Christian discipline. And that begins with our own personal and private admonition to them and our warning them of the error of their way and what will be the end of their way if they do not repent.

01:29:08

We have to go to our final break right now. It'll be briefer than the last one. If you have a question, and we do still have a couple of people waiting to have their questions asked, but please send in an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:29:20

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:29:27

U .S .A., and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

01:29:32

We'll be right back with Ronald Cumminger and the book, Saved by Grace, A Study of the

01:29:39

Five Points of Calvinism. I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

01:29:46

God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

01:29:52

In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

01:29:58

Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

01:30:04

What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

01:30:09

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

01:30:15

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

01:30:21

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

01:30:31

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838

01:30:39

Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi, 39443, or donate through our website, bbclaurel .com.

01:30:46

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi, 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

01:30:56

Thank you. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

01:31:01

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:31:08

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01:31:21

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01:31:29

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

01:31:36

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:31:48

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:31:54

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402, that's 516 -599 -9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org,

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that's linbrookbaptist .org. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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01:38:25

Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back.

01:38:38

We are now concluding the interview that we began nearly two hours ago with our guest

01:38:44

Ronald Cumminger, who is one of two authors of the book Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism.

01:38:52

If you'd like to join us on the air, do so now by emailing in your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:38:58

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We have

01:39:05

Jared from Dry Fork, Virginia, another first -time questioner.

01:39:10

It's amazing. I think all of our listeners today, I might be wrong on that, but I think all of them have been first -time questioners.

01:39:19

And Jared says, my name is Jared and I'm from Dry Fork, Virginia. I affirm the doctrines of grace as a true reflection of biblical doctrine.

01:39:28

I accept all five of the points of Calvinism, but I do, however, have difficulty in articulating an explanation for the question, if the

01:39:38

Lord has predetermined who will be saved and who will be condemned, how will the condemned be without excuse?

01:39:46

Thank you for my question. Well, I think Romans 1 involves the answer to that question, but if you could comment more thoroughly.

01:39:54

I think that you're right. Romans 1 does give a good explanation for that, especially those who have never heard the gospel, judged by God because he leaves them without excuse.

01:40:09

The truth concerning himself is he ought to be served, evident from the creation itself.

01:40:18

So there is that. I think there are other things that could be added to the answer.

01:40:27

Although God has predestinated certain men, that's the offensive side of predestination, reprobation.

01:40:36

Although he has passed certain ones by and actively ordained them to condemnation, he always does that in the way of their own unbelief and their own wicked rejection of the gospel.

01:40:54

Right. Yeah, these are not morally neutral people who are going to hell, just because they were not elected by God.

01:41:03

They are being punished because of their sins that they willfully committed. That's right. They're not going to hell because they are reprobate.

01:41:13

They're going to hell because they're sinners, impenitent sinners. Now, wouldn't you also say that those going to hell are not necessarily going to hell because of an outward rejection of Christ?

01:41:28

Only the blood of Christ will save a sinner, but the person is going to hell because of their sin.

01:41:36

In other words, they cannot have an excuse on judgment day. Well, I was living in a country that was never evangelized.

01:41:42

I never heard the gospel. And of course, there were thousands, if not millions of people over the centuries who never once heard the voice of a missionary or read a page of scripture, but they will still be in hell if they did not come to Christ because of their sin, irregardless of whether they rejected

01:42:01

Christ or not. Yes, absolutely. It doesn't mean that there's an active rejection of Jesus Christ, but those who are outside of Jesus Christ.

01:42:13

I just came back from five weeks in Singapore and visited some of the temples there to the heathen religions, and it was unsettling to me to see all these people sincerely worshipping these idol gods, devoting all of their goods and resources to support this idolatrous religion, and to know that they were ensnared in a false religion in which there's no possibility of salvation.

01:42:47

Right. Amen. And we have left irresistible grace and perseverance and preservation of the saints.

01:42:55

Irresistible grace is also something that is confusing to many, maybe even

01:43:01

Reformed people, because they think, wait a minute, how could grace be irresistible? Because when

01:43:06

I reflect upon my life, I was resisting God through the majority of my life.

01:43:12

I was running away from Him. I was refusing to bend the knee to Him until I was born again.

01:43:19

So what do we mean by this? We talk about that in the chapter on irresistible grace, that that's exactly the case.

01:43:28

All of us, by nature, resist, and that characterizes not only the reprobate wicked, but that characterizes even we who are elect very often, even after our regeneration, how often doesn't it?

01:43:43

But what we mean by irresistible grace is resisted successfully, resisted ultimately, so that man is able to frustrate the will of God and the work of the

01:43:59

Holy Spirit. That's what we're saying is impossible. Yes, the effectual call will not fail.

01:44:08

Those whom God chooses to draw to Himself savingly are not going to ultimately be able to resist, nor will they want to, eventually.

01:44:18

Correct. I agree. And the final letter in the

01:44:23

Tulip, the P, some people just call it the perseverance of the saints, but I prefer to be more full in my description by calling it the perseverance and preservation of the saints.

01:44:39

There have been some, I have heard some, who have falsely accused

01:44:45

Calvinism of teaching some kind of meritorious salvation because we use the word the perseverance of the saints as if us battling through life in our own steam and strength is somehow going to please

01:45:04

God enough to save us in the end, but obviously being Calvinists we abhor such a notion.

01:45:10

So what do we mean by this? The perseverance of the saints emphasizes our active perseverance in the faith, here the

01:45:20

Reformed faith, the Fathers of Dort, that's the title they give to that last head of doctrine, the perseverance of the saints.

01:45:28

They did that deliberately because they did not want in any way to concede to the

01:45:34

Arminian caricature of the Reformed faith that we are stocks and blocks, and God simply brings us, in a

01:45:43

Pullman car was the expression, into heaven. But we are active in the connection between our activity and God's preservation is brought out by perseverance.

01:46:00

And of course, because God preserves us, there's no question about it. Amen, amen.

01:46:06

The perseverance is a fruit that we are correct? Absolutely.

01:46:12

And it's the crowning evidence of the sovereignty of God that sinners whom he saves are saved.

01:46:21

He cedes to that the power of the devil, their own wicked sinful flesh, the world around them, nothing can frustrate his determination to save them, but God saves to the uttermost those whom he wills to save.

01:46:37

And this has nothing to do with the very false teaching that unfortunately

01:46:43

John Wesley had developed of sinless perfectionism. Even though we believe in the perseverance and preservation of the saints, that does not mean we reject the notion that his true elect may and will fall occasionally in different degrees of sin.

01:47:03

But the difference is that his elect will not wallow in that. They will not remain there enslaved to that sin.

01:47:11

They will rise up in repentance by the grace of God and continue moving forward in obedience to him.

01:47:17

Sure, that's the outstanding evidence of God's preservation of us, that he always brings us finally to repentance.

01:47:25

It may take a while. We may have to go through some bitter hard experiences like David did after his adultery with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah.

01:47:36

But in the end, God does bring us to repentance and restores us again. Well, I'd like you, before we take any more listener questions,

01:47:47

I'd like you to basically summarize now what you most want etched upon the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to the five points of Calvinism.

01:47:57

I think the thing that I would want to be impressed upon them is the great truth that God saves us by grace.

01:48:05

We're saved by grace. The five points of Calvinism underscore the grace of God in saving those who are unworthy and unable.

01:48:15

I think that's the thing that echoes in the heart of every sinner who knows himself. I know within myself that if my salvation depended on me,

01:48:24

I'd be lost. It's grace, pure grace. I think it would be appropriate for us to give a loving word of rebuke to Reformed Christians who are caught up in the sin of pride and arrogance.

01:48:42

They look upon their brethren in Christ who don't fully understand these things.

01:48:49

They look upon them as being less intelligent than they are.

01:48:54

They look upon them, perhaps even in an extreme sense, as morons. Reformed people do not own the corner on being arrogant and self -righteous and proud.

01:49:10

I've met people from all denominational and theological stripes who would fit that description.

01:49:19

The difference is, even though there are proud and arrogant Arminians and Pentecostals and semi -Pelagians and the list goes on, the difference is that we have no excuse.

01:49:34

Exactly right. That's what I was going to say. No excuse.

01:49:40

We who confess that salvation is by grace and grace alone. We have no excuse to exalt anyone.

01:49:48

We do have an anonymous listener who wants to know if you are a determinist, someone who does not believe in any kind of freedom of the will.

01:50:04

Basically, I think, if he's using that term the way I think he's using it, he's referring to more of a hyper -Calvinist type of a person who believes that the preaching of the gospel is not involved in any way in the regeneration of the lost, that there is no means that God uses to save the lost.

01:50:31

In fact, there are many among the primitive Baptists who believe that. They seem to blur the distinction between election and regeneration, but if you could, if you could comment on that.

01:50:45

Just that God is a God of means and we may not despise the means that God has determined to use for our salvation and for our preservation in salvation, and we must be diligent in the use of those means.

01:51:05

Yes, just because we use means, or I should say, just because we believe God uses means, does that mean that we are denying

01:51:13

God deserves a hundred percent of the praise, honor, and glory for our salvation?

01:51:20

Absolutely not. Certainly, we want to distance ourselves as Reformed Christians from that view of fatalism and determinism.

01:51:30

That's not the Reformed faith. That's paganism. The God who has determined to save us is also the

01:51:39

God who has determined to save us by the use of means, the means that he has determined and that he provides as well.

01:51:49

But we must use those means, and apart from the use of those means, we're only going to experience the wrath and anger of God.

01:51:59

Amen. And, I mean, even when you think of the fact that Judas betrayed

01:52:08

Christ, a devil entered him, and he betrayed Christ, and you had

01:52:14

Roman soldiers nailing the perfect spotless lamb to a cross, and even before that you had multitudes of Jews crying out for his death, those that were from among his own people ethnically.

01:52:33

You know, these were all means that God used to bring about his redemptive plan.

01:52:40

He did not just create us in heaven to remain in glory with him without experiencing anything on this earth, and he doesn't just zap people, as some people might think

01:52:52

Calvinism teaches, that he just shoots a ray gun of some kind, a holy ray gun at the hearts of people and just zaps them to be saved.

01:53:00

He uses all kinds of means, and even after, of course, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the proclamation of his gospel is a means, and even the ministering to the lost with the love of Christ and so on.

01:53:15

These are all means, are they not? Sure, and that also answers the objection of some, well, if God predestinates unto salvation, there's no reason to be involved in missions and to be involved energetically in missions.

01:53:32

The answer, number one, is that God has his people in every nation, land, and tribe under heaven, and in the second place, that God has determined that the means by which the elect will be gathered and saved is the preaching of the gospel, and that ought to be a motivation to us to be involved in missions.

01:53:54

We have the assurance that this is the means that God has appointed and that God is going to bless and use this means for good.

01:54:03

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says the charge of hyper -Calvinism is used very freely by those outside of the

01:54:14

Reformed faith. They use a very broad brush and paint anyone who is actually historically and biblically accurate in their understanding of Calvinism as being a hyper -Calvinist, but there is obviously a distinction between those that are logically and consistently representing the

01:54:34

Reformed faith of history, and especially the Reformed faith of the Bible, and those that are genuinely rightfully deserving of the hyper -Calvinism.

01:54:43

Could you please summarize the distinction? I think that the hyper -Calvinist distinguishes himself by denying the necessity of the call of the gospel to all men everywhere.

01:54:59

The denial of the call of the gospel is one of the outstanding characteristics of the hyper -Calvinist, and we certainly want to distance ourselves from the hyper -Calvinist who has no sense of the call to do mission work and does not look upon the call to repentance to God's people even in the church for ongoing conversion and repentance, who dismisses even the necessity of that.

01:55:34

So certainly as far as the preaching of the gospel and the call to gospel are concerned, there is a marked difference between the

01:55:42

Calvinist and the hyper -Calvinist. And would you not say that hyper -Calvinism is just as dangerous a heresy as is those heresies that diminish the sovereignty of God in Arminian circles and other places?

01:56:01

We who are Reformed do not think that hyper -Calvinism is some kind of a lesser degree of sin.

01:56:08

In fact, it is, I think, sometimes, depending, I mean, hyper -Calvinism is not a monolithic group of people.

01:56:15

There are different kinds of hyper -Calvinists. Some who have a much broader view of heaven than the

01:56:23

Bible teach would exist, and some who have a much more narrow view. But this is truly something that we must denounce.

01:56:35

It is not just a lesser evil than some of the Arminian heresies would, or the semi -Pelagian heresies would lead to.

01:56:43

This is definitely a dangerous system of thought, isn't it? I would concur absolutely.

01:56:51

There are always two ditches on either side of the straight and narrow way into the kingdom of heaven.

01:56:58

There's legalism on the one hand, that's the one ditch, but there's another ditch, and that's the ditch of hyper -Calvinism, and we ought to dread as much going into the one ditch as into the other.

01:57:14

Well, I want to thank you so much, Professor Kamenga, for being on the program today.

01:57:21

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, the book is

01:57:26

Saved by Grace, a Study of the Five Points of Calvinism by our guests

01:57:32

Ronald Kamenga and Ronald Henko, and you can order that through our sponsors, cvbbs .com,

01:57:43

that's cvbbs .com. Also, you can order that through Reformed Free Publishing Association.

01:57:50

We thank them for providing us with the books that we have been giving away today. Their website is rfpa .org,

01:57:58

R for Reformed, F for Free, P for Publishing, and A for Association, rfpa .org.

01:58:06

I want to thank you so much. I look forward to your return. You proved to be an excellent guest, Brother Kamenga, and I'm probably still butchering your last name, but I'm trying my best.

01:58:17

Don't worry about it, Chris. You've been very gracious as a host, and I'd be more than happy to appear on your show again.

01:58:23

Thank you very much for the invitation. And send my greetings to Ronald Henko, and tell him that I would love to eventually have him on as well, and also to Martin McGowan, and also to David Engelsma, who has become one of my favorite guests.

01:58:41

I look forward to his return to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. I know that you are very familiar with all of those brethren.

01:58:47

I am indeed. I will definitely pass along your greetings. And I want to remind our listeners, please pray for my dear friend

01:58:55

William Webster. He is the founder of Christian Resources, a prolific writer, banner of truth author, and published author through other publishers, a pastor, and a longtime friend of mine going back to 1990, perhaps even earlier.

01:59:16

He just recently lost his precious wife Paula at 69 years of age, who is now in eternity with Christ.

01:59:25

So please pray for Bill and his family, and all those who survive and are experiencing a great period of mourning through Paula leaving this earth.

01:59:36

But we know where she is, and that she would never trade places with us. But I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater