February 5, 2019 Show with Ronald L. Cammenga on “Saved by Grace: A Study of the Five Points of Calvinism”

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day

of February 2019.

And I am delighted that we are going to be having a first -time guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio.

His name is Ronald L. Kamenga and he is professor of dogmatics and Old

Testament studies at Protestant Reform Seminary in Wyoming, Michigan.

And today we are going to be addressing his book, Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of

Calvinism, which he co -authored with Ronald Hanco.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ronald L. Kamenga.

Thank you very much, Chris.

It's good to be with you and with your listeners this afternoon.

And did I mispronounce your last name?

Certainly, but that's all right.

It's Kamenga, emphasis on the first syllable, but that's no problem.

Okay, Kamenga, okay.

Well, before we get into the discussion at hand, which is the theme of your book,

Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism, I'd like to get, as we normally do

with first -time guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I'd like to have a summary of your salvation testimony,

what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our

sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

I was raised in a Christian family by a father and mother who were and

had the upbringing in the home, upbringing in church,

and upbringing in Christians.

That was also the case.

And in 2005, took the appointment to serve.

Praise God.

And the book that you have written, Saved by Grace, a

study of the five points of Calvinism, people may be wondering why there is a new book

on the five points of Calvinism, because we who are Reformed know that there are many,

both those that are centuries old and those that are written by contemporary authors.

Some of them have become classics and have been widely used across the

denominational spectrum amongst Reformed Christians.

Can you tell us why you felt another book was needed or perhaps just

would be valued because of something different that you're adding to the discussion?

Sure.

That's a good question.

There are some very fine books, and as you said, some that have become classics too.

I have used and still use a number of them and recommend them.

This book was intended to be a book that would be saturated with scripture, text,

as well as confessional reference.

Who are young in their faith, they might also be somewhat young.

Time to a careful study of the five points of Calvinism,

the confessional statements, and

either become thoroughly grounded in the

truth, convinced of the doctrines of...

Well, I think it would be wise for us, even though the majority of my listeners are Reformed Christians,

I believe anyway.

I don't know that 100 with certainty, but I have a good level of confidence that

that's the case because of those who write in and so on.

But if you could let us know about what are the five points of Calvinism.

I know that to start off with, many people wrongly think that John

Calvin developed the acronym known as TULIP, which contains the five points of Calvinism,

but that is not the case historically.

Even though we believe as Reformed Christians, Calvin believed in the five points,

he did not develop them systematically in that acronym that we all have grown to

know that includes total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement,

irresistible grace, and perseverance and preservation of the saints.

And by the way, is there some kind of a background noise, like a crackling or something?

Is something being moved in your studio or wherever you are?

I don't think so.

Okay.

Unless there's a mouse in here, it's only myself and my books.

Okay, but if you could let us know about how these

five points came to be known as they are today.

I know it has something to do with the remonstrance, the Arminian revolt within the Reformed Church in the Netherlands.

But if you could tell us more about that.

Yes, indeed.

This is a glorious year in which we're living.

We're celebrating the 400th anniversary, and it is

Arminian controversy that was raging in the Reformed

Churches in the Netherlands.

And in doing so, the Canons of Dort

were Arminians, or the

remnant

as regards the doctrines of points.

The Synod of Dort met, responded to those five

points in the Canons of

Dort.

The acronym TULIP did not originate with the French

John Calvin.

And nonetheless, briefly, the doctrines

that he set

forth and defended,

an exciting year in which we attended

their conference in many different places.

I've given a number of speeches at

conferences coming up here, an

exciting time.

Yeah, praise God.

And just so our listeners can be aware of this, one of your colleagues

who has written a book, Grace and Assurance, The Message of the Canons of Dort,

Martin McGown, he has been interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on that very book

on the Canons of Dort, which you just mentioned.

And if anybody would like to hear that interview later on, you can go to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive,

ironsharpensironradio .com, and then go into past shows, podcasts,

and you can type in Canons of Dort, D -O -R -D -T.

And by the way, Canons is spelt with two Ns, C -A -N -O -N -S, not C -A -N

-N -O -N -S.

And you can learn more about that there.

Martin did a phenomenal job with that interview.

Isn't he an interesting fellow?

Oh yeah, he is.

He's way more interesting than I am.

Martin was one of my first students when I came to the seminary here.

And it wasn't long after he was into his seminary career that I

emphasized to him, you must write.

You must preach, but you must write.

Trinity is able.

Yes.

Well, would you say, before we go into the five points, and I

think that even though we have addressed this subject on my program many times, it is always, I

think, a good idea to go over them again because they are so controversial in the

body of Christ.

There are so many people who are confused by Calvinism and have a caricature, a

stereotype, and continue slandering the

teachings of Calvinism and those who teach them.

But would you not say that the five points of Calvinism, or even

the theology known as Calvinism or Reformed theology, the doctrines of sovereign grace, the

doctrines of free grace, sometimes they are called, they basically highlight

the depravity or the hopelessness and the helplessness of mankind and

highlight and exalt the power, the sovereignty, the authority, the

righteousness, and the holiness of God.

They really shine a beacon on these two truths which are

very often, perhaps even unconsciously blurred by other Christians

outside of the Reformed faith.

Many Christians unconsciously, of course, I don't think anyone would do this intentionally, but they diminish

somewhat the authority of God, at least in their teaching.

Obviously nobody can diminish the authority of God, but in their teaching they do.

And they give man more credit than he deserves.

They soften or lessen the sinfulness, the wickedness, the helplessness and hopelessness of man

and make him more worthy, if you will, of

being saved through his own power of thought or his actions and so on.

Absolutely.

For that reason, to the five points of

Calvinism, the

canons of Doric, the canons begin with eternal predestination.

The chapter in the book is on the absolute sovereignty of God.

And that is the great truth of

Calvinism

and on the

sovereignty of

God.

Now, you said something in the beginning that I think is very important.

As you probably know, those who are outside of the Reformed faith, depending

upon how nasty they are or how aggressively opposed they are to what we believe, a

very common accusation is that we are following the

teachings of men and not the teachings of God and the inerrant

God -breathed words of Scripture.

This is one of the reasons you wrote the book, is it not, to prove that this is far from the truth, that

those who are in the Reformed faith have based everything

according to the Scriptures.

Obviously, no man on earth is infallible, but that is

the intention and I think that is what the Reformers and those who are their

heirs have largely done successfully in exegeting the Scriptures and coming up,

unrooting, discovering, unearthing, and shining a light on these truths

that centuries ago had been buried by the works, righteousness, superstitions,

and idolatry of Rome and had been, thankfully, uncovered by

God's grace through the Reformers and others.

But if you could continue on from that train of thought there.

Yes, for sure.

Maintain that there is no motivation to...

Now, obviously, I think we should separate fact from

fiction because, obviously, even from what I just said, the doctrines of

Reformed theology and the specific teachings of the Five Points of Calvinism have been maligned, twisted,

distorted, slandered, starting with total depravity.

Many wrongly think that in that teaching with that very scary name, total depravity,

that we are saying that mankind is as bad as he could be.

And that's obviously not true.

We believe that there is much restraint taking place through the sovereignty of

God that prevents men from being evil, as evil as they could be.

We wouldn't...

Not only would we not be able to leave our homes if man were as evil as he could be, we wouldn't be safe in our own

homes.

We wouldn't even be safe alone in a room by ourselves.

Sure.

But that's not what we're teaching, are we?

That's correct.

We want to distinguish ourselves from those who maintain that

there is an

evil...

This would be prior to the regeneration of those who are the elect.

Absolutely.

And going back to

where I

asked the question about God's restraint, obviously I know that.

There is a debate amongst performed Christians about common grace, but we see even in Scripture

how God both hardened Pharaoh's heart and softened it.

So, I mean, there was a restraint that God somehow supernaturally was involved

in with Pharaoh, would you not say?

I would not lie.

In many cases, that would be a demonstration of God's grace towards his people, even

when the wicked, the reprobate, are having their hearts softened enough to be restrained in

their evil.

That is a blessing for the elect.

Sure, exactly.

And God uses even that.

Now, when it comes to the fact that we are conceived with this condition,

it has been known also as original sin, but total depravity is a more clear

definition of what that entails, am I right?

Yes, for sure. But you cannot say depravity

demands the

sin, accounts for.

Now, how do you respond to those either who

are at least semi -Pelagian or who deny original sin, they deny total

depravity?

They may not even be professing Christians, because even secular humanists and

those outside of Christendom have said, how dare can God

permit babies to be born with this condition when they did not fall in the garden?

How do you respond to that kind of accusation or question?

Um, I first call attention

to Romans and from

1 Corinthians that teaches very clearly that

in Adam, we have sinned.

And on account of Adam's sin, not only is Adam

judged

in one way

or another, but

to bring it home are

the legal

heads and representatives.

That's what makes Father.

From the

means of grace, Father

made all kinds of examples.

But you agree with him.

And when he declares war, we are at war.

It's just the nature of legal had constituted Adam.

And Adam knew it too.

Yes, and again, in regard to the actual phrase total depravity, we are

saying in summary that every aspect of mankind from the

moment of his conception is depraved, it's enslaved to sin

and the going to free will, which I think is

connected to this in the debate.

Anyway, Armenians and those outside of the reform faith and

perhaps even hyper Calvinists or those who misunderstand Calvinism, perhaps they are new

to these things and yet profess to believe them.

They will say that man does not have any kind of freedom with his will, which would imply that

God is forcing man against his will to sin.

Now, would you not agree that man does have a free will in as much as he is

free to follow and do that which pleases him?

The problem is outside of regeneration, outside of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,

he cannot please God in the flesh, as the scriptures even say in the book of Romans, that man cannot please

God in the flesh.

So therefore, he is free to do what pleases him, but what pleases him

is not that which necessarily pleases God.

And of course, he cannot please God in offering God a

faith prior to his regeneration that would save him.

Yes, exactly.

The

point

of

view.

Now, how would you respond to the fact that even those who are lost, even the

worst among us who are lost, do at times, do wonderful things,

wonderful things, and an earthly and human understanding of what wonderful means.

You have unbelievers, you may even have atheists or members of all kinds of bizarre

false religions who are faithful to their spouses, whereas Christians may fall into adultery and

other abominable sins.

You have just ongoing acts of benevolence and kindness and

compassion.

You will even have men who are without Christ laying down their lives

in the battlefield for their comrades or for their nation.

You know, you have all these kinds of things going on, and those who are outside of the Reformed faith, or

perhaps outside of Christianity in general, would say, well, how could you say that these aren't good things

that they are doing?

What

Augustine long

ago, all kinds of...

Yeah, you're adding a very important element in here.

It's doing these things for God's sake, because a person may truly

love his wife, who is not a believer, but that makes his wife an idol

if he does not love God first and foremost above her.

Excellent point.

That's exactly right.

Right.

And a person could actually love the poor and want to bestow upon them

food and clothing and housing and money and all

kinds of things.

But if they do not have God as a motivation, the poor are an idol.

You could use any circumstance that you just mentioned and more, and it might even, in a human

perspective, be a perfectly righteous and wonderful motivation that they have.

But if they don't have God as a motive, they have made those things or those people idols.

Yes.

The Apostle Paul says in Romans 14, verse 23, that whatsoever is not of

faith, is not of faith, is sin.

Amen.

We have to go to our first break right now.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ronald Kamenga—I'm sorry,

Kamenga—if you have a question of your own about the five points of

Calvinism, about salvation by grace, give us an email.

Even if you oppose what our guest is saying—in fact, this might sound odd, but I get

discouraged sometimes that I never hear from people who disagree with us.

I never have that problem.

I never have that problem.

But even if you disagree with our guest, but even if you're not a Christian, if you are a Jew, a

Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an atheist, an agnostic, a Swedenborgianist, send in an email to

chrisarnson at gmail .com with your question.

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But if it's not a personal, private matter, please at least give us your city and your state and

your country of residence.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back with our guest, Ronald Kamenga, and our discussion

on saved by grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism.

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Radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Ronald Kaminga,

and he is one of two authors of the book Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of

Calvinism published by the Reform Free Publishing Association.

Why don't you tell our listeners something about your co -author, Ronald Hanco.

Ronald Hanco is my brother -in -law.

He has had his

fun.

Well, we hope to have one day Ronald Hanco on the program with us as well.

If you want to do that, you would enjoy it.

Yes, and let me repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us with a question for our guest today.

Ronald Kaminga, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we do have

quite a number of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you.

But before we go to those, I just wanted to get a little bit further into the five points of Calvinism.

The next in the Acrostic of TULIP, the way it's more commonly known, as you said earlier, it's

not the exact order of the Canons of Dort, but it is the

more well -known version according to the Acrostic TULIP.

And you, for Unconditional Election, also has a lot of

misconceptions wrapped up in that truth.

You have people thinking that we believe that God is making haphazard

decisions on whom he is choosing to receive eternal life as if he is a blindfolded

person at a buffet or something and just taking things that he doesn't even know what he is taking and

slapping them on his plate.

That just because we believe that there is nothing worthy of

God's love innately in us, there is nothing lovable

or warranting our election and salvation, nothing at all,

as we already said, we are conceived totally depraved.

There is, just because that is true, there is, or should I

say, there are reasons that may be known only to God why he is choosing some over others, but

what we know for certain is that it is not because those he chooses are better or holier

or more obedient or more lovely than others.

Am I stating this correctly?

Absolutely.

Conditionality of election, that adjective means

distress, that there is nothing in those

who

are...

She sees a huge display of apples

and the

basis of...

Maybe the fact that there is

something in the apple, that's not.

Nothing in us, absolutely nothing.

And that means before all men, even we who

have the...

And having said that though, going back to my statement that we are accused of

believing in a God that randomly, without purpose, without reason,

chooses his elect at the expense of others, we are not

saying that, even though we are saying we're not worthy of being elected.

There's nothing good in us that would make us the object of his affection,

but there is reason behind his choices that we may never know.

Am I right on that?

I would agree with that.

I always say that the reason is eternally hid.

He is not playing a cosmic game of eeny, meeny, miny, moe.

I don't know if you're familiar with that child's game.

No, absolutely not.

This is not, from God's point of view, a game of chance, not at all.

And this once again highlights the unworthiness of man, the sinfulness of man,

the wickedness of man, the hopelessness and helplessness of man, and the glory, the

righteousness, the power, the mercy, the love and grace of God in his choosing us.

Yes, absolutely.

We have a first -time listener, or should I say first -time questioner.

He may have listened for years and I've just been unaware of it until now, but he's a first -time questioner, Christopher in

Canton, Georgia.

And Christopher writes, let me preface my question by stating that I believe that my salvation is a

result of God electing me.

I do not believe I would have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior on my own.

For this, I'm highly grateful and humbled.

Now, I am trying to figure out how to pull the exact meaning from John

6, verse 37.

I've seen this verse broken down as follows.

God's responsibility, all that the Father gives me will come to me.

A man's responsibility and the one who comes to me, I will certainly not cast out.

The idea is that we are not all robots that God programs to follow him.

How are we to interpret this scripture without towing the line of free will?

I'll read the scripture once again.

Sure.

I'm going to read it in the King James, if that's all right.

But in the King James, it's all that the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that

cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

What must be emphasized first is that in the preaching of the gospel, God calls everyone

who hears the preaching of the gospel to come to him.

That's the demand, the command that he places before everyone who hears the

preaching of the gospel.

God uses that command, the elect,

so

that they come.

It's the means by which God works within them

that they come.

They are received by him, no wise cast out, but

received by him.

Well, in fact, Christopher ends with something that

is, we've already addressed this in affirming this, but my understanding is

that no one would ever come to God without him

giving them to Jesus.

Right.

And that is basically

a truth that flows out of total depravity, which we were already discussing before.

Yep.

Well, thank you, Christopher.

And if you can please give me your full mailing address in Canton, Georgia.

We're going to have cvbbs .com, our sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, mail you

a free copy of Saved by Grace, A Study of the Five Points of Calvinism by Ronald Cumminger

and Ronald Hanco.

And that is through the generosity of our friends at the Reform Free Publishing

Association and also the generosity of cvbbs .com because they are sparing both

you and Iron Trip and Zion Radio the shipping costs.

So that will be shipped to you as soon as we get your mailing address, and we thank you

for joining us on the program today.

Another thing about unconditional election

that actually baffles me because many of our brothers who are

believers in the inerrancy of scripture who deny unconditional election,

they somehow, and for some reason that it is beyond my comprehension, accept that truth

in regard to the unconditional election of the nation of Israel in the Old Covenant.

There seems to be no reason why one should find that completely acceptable

as God's right to do as the sovereign king and creator of all the universe

and how it somehow becomes horrible and immoral and unbecoming of God to do this

in the New Covenant, which of course his divine election of those who will be in heaven with him for

eternity has always been in operation even in the Old Covenant.

But as far as the physical way it was demonstrated with Israel, men seem to be fine with that but not

with the unconditional election of those who will be with him for eternity.

Can you comment on that at all?

I wouldn't comment on

it

except to

agree with it and say

this, that God could have done.

I'm speaking hypothetically.

One is that God could have chosen to save everybody.

He's God.

He could have.

He didn't.

But he could reject everybody.

The entire race under obligation

to choose any

entire human race

convinced on the way to demonstrate his love

to maintain his justice.

I think that's something that we should think about especially God's

making this distinction among human beings.

Well now we have to go to our midway break and please be a little bit patient with us

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Chris Arnson host of Iron Trip and Zion Radio here.

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Have a great day.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

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He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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to stay in existence, and that's going to help us stay in existence.

And we are back with our guest, Ronald Kaminga, and we are

discussing his book, Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism that he co -authored

with Ronald Hanco.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com,

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

And we have a listener from Hawaii.

I believe this is another first -time questioner, and he is from Na

'alehu.

Na 'alehu, he spelt it phonetically for me.

Na 'alehu, Hawaii.

His name is Gary, and he asks this question, Why do you think

many pastors of Baptist and non -denominational churches not only do not teach the doctrines of grace, but

also believe they are not true?

Well, first of all, Gary, I'm a Reformed Baptist, so I take exception to your question.

But I'm sure that even Professor Kaminga would agree that there are many paedo

-Baptist denominations that don't believe in or teach the doctrines of grace either.

That is for sure.

But if you could answer the question, it may involve some mind -reading on your part.

But, I mean, the question could better be—I don't want to insult my listener in Hawaii to say it could better be

asked in a different way—but perhaps we could just summarize this or make it

a more broadly understood question

by asking, Why is it that there are many who profess to be Christian who believe in the inerrancy of

Scripture who, many of them, have memorized great portions of Scripture?

They live godly lives.

They are committed to Christ and serving Him faithfully.

And on and on we could go.

Many of them would put us to shame in regard to the holiness of their lives and their living and so on

in one way or another.

But for some reason, they do not believe in the doctrines of grace.

Now, obviously, there's not one answer as to why this is true, but do you have any answers that

you might want to provide our listener?

In connection with the illustration that you gave, I think that the general reason

is unpopularity.

I don't choose God as

sovereign over the

world in which we live.

Amen.

And, of course, you have added to the equation that what we believe as Reformed Christians

is very often distorted.

Many pastors and teachers out there, and also radio and television

personalities who have Christian programs of one kind or another,

will very often provide caricatures and slanderous

ideas about Reformed theology and the doctrines of grace.

You also have, again, the element within our own circles of hyper -Calvinists who don't do us any

favors.

But that, I think, is a minority of people today.

But it's interesting, though, and I'm sure that you have encountered this as well.

In fact, I think it was J .I. Packer that said that all Christians are Calvinists on our knees.

It's very interesting how people who, on paper, or according to their

confession of faith, or their church constitution, or whatever you might

call their means of communicating a summary of what they believe, even if they are Arminian or

non -Reformed or anti -Calvinist in those regards, they very often will

behave and speak and believe exactly like Calvinists in certain times of their lives,

perhaps even especially when they're going through a crisis in their lives, and they know that God is in control over all things.

And it's interesting, you'll hear very often at funerals where an Arminian

pastor may be speaking, or perhaps the loved ones of the deceased who are Arminian or non -Reformed,

they will speak of the fact that God took that person home at the time of his own

choosing, you know, that kind of a thing, where you're saying to yourself, wow, if this person is logically

consistent, they shouldn't be saying that.

But isn't it true that very often those among us who say that they're not Calvinist

sometimes believe and act like they are?

I think that in spite of themselves, it's

people they own up

to.

I think I wouldn't be done praying if I did not believe that the God to whom I am praying is a

sovereign God, able and willing to grant my requests.

Yes, I just not long...

Well, probably, how many years ago was it?

I don't know, four or five years ago, I saw this pastor

really attacking Calvinism in a juvenile way, in a

unbiblical way.

Obviously, if you're attacking Calvinism, it has to be unbiblical.

But in a way that was nonsensical, and he was just filled with fiery

speech and rhetoric against the doctrines of grace.

And the thing that I thought was kind of humorous, whether I should have felt that way or not, I did think it was kind of

humorous, is that when he sat down, the pastor of the church where he was speaking

ascended into the pulpit, declaring what a wonderful message that he heard,

that that message was, how wonderful and how blessed he was by hearing it.

And then when he concluded in prayer, he began saying things like, God, can you please open

the eyes of the blind among us?

Can you please unstop the deaf ears of those that do not hear the gospel?

Please, please remove hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh that they may believe upon you.

It was as if the man didn't even realize that he was praying exactly like a Calvinist.

So those things do happen.

I think, though, too, that what I confront a lot besides the misinformation and the caricatures of

the Reformed faith, to my mind, sadly, I see a lot of that in western

Michigan here where we're located.

Why am I not hearing?

It's not the Scripture being open to me and the preaching and teaching of my own congregation and these things

being set forth.

And would you not say also that just as God

elects whom he chooses, he saves whom he chooses,

he regenerates those whom he chooses, God, even amongst those who are his

elect, those who are regenerate believers, he does bless some with

an increased level of sanctification when it comes to their understanding of the Bible.

And for some reason, others are not that deep into

their understanding.

Basically, what I'm saying is even among the regenerate, there are different levels of

understanding of the Word.

And of course, with sanctification, unlike our justification, with sanctification, we do participate.

We cannot be lazy or avoid reading the Scriptures and so on.

But even when we discover these things that are the truths of the doctrines of sovereign grace, reformed theology,

Calvinism, however you want to label them, don't we owe God the credit and the glory and the praise

for even that?

Absolutely.

He opened our eyes.

So I guess that's the best we can answer your question, Gary.

And by the way, if you please would give me your full mailing address in Hawaii, you have also

won a free copy of Saved by Grace.

A study of the five points of Calvinism by our guest today, Ronald Kamenga and Ronald Hanco.

Compliments of our friends at the Reform Free Publishing Association and also our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be

shipping the book out to you.

And by the way, for our first -time questioners, you're also receiving a free New American

Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB who sponsor this program and have been one of our most

faithful sponsors ever since the inception of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Thank you very much for the excellent question, Gary.

And we do have some more listeners here.

And before I take any more listeners, let's just move on.

We do have a number of people waiting, but let me just move on so we make sure that we get all five points

into the discussion today.

Limited atonement, which is also called definite atonement, in

particular redemption and substitutionary atonement, even though Arminians today also

use the phrase substitutionary atonement, I do not believe that they can logically and consistently

use that phrase if they believe that there will be men and women and children in hell.

Because if Christ died for our substitute, why on earth would anyone go to hell?

Of course, you and I believe that he did die as a substitute for his people and therefore they

certainly will not go to hell.

But if you could, this seems to be the most despised of the doctrines of

Calvinism by those who are outside of our circles of fellowship.

And I really think that it is rooted in unconditional election, even though they may say

they are most horrified by the concept of limited atonement.

But perhaps we could start off by the word limited, which actually results in a lot

of confusion.

Arminians and those who are outside of Reformed theology will insinuate or accuse

us in believing that somehow God's power is limited.

But ironically, Charles Spurgeon said that the Arminian truly believes in a limited atonement because it is limited

in its power.

It does not save all that it is intended to save, where the Calvinist only believes that it is limited

according to the scope for which it is intended.

The number of people for which it is intended is limited, but that is the only thing limited about it.

Because it is unlimited in power, it saves everyone for whom it was intended to save.

Would that be a correct way of summarizing that issue?

Yeah, absolutely.

All...

Amen.

And by the way, we have done other programs where we have dedicated the entirety of the

two hours to limited atonement or particular redemption or definite atonement,

substitutionary atonement.

You can look those up on the archives of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We do have...

Let's see, we have Gary in...

Let's see, where is Gary from?

He is from Ashboro, North Carolina.

And I have to enlarge Gary's email because the font is

microscopically small.

While I'm doing that, if you'd like to send in a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Okay, so Gary in Ashboro, North Carolina writes, Hi Brother Chris, another great show.

As a Reformed Baptist, I adhere to the five points of Calvinism.

I know had the true...

I don't know what that means, he has a typo here.

I know had the true and living God not called me, I

would still be in my sins and am amazed he would elect a sinner such as I.

When I look at the genealogy of Christ, it surprises me, the family tree personalities,

how could one lock...

How can one look at that alone and not believe in the

doctrine of election?

I'm assuming he's talking about Rahab the harlot and others that are in the lineage there of

how God has not only chosen his elect from out of

the most pious and religious and outwardly righteous of people, but he has chosen people

who have been among the most scandalous of sinners.

Isn't that a fascinating aspect to consider?

It is a fascinating aspect.

I've done quite a bit of work on the genealogies, some Bible studies

on the genealogies of Christ and preach a number of sermons.

That piqued my interest long ago in the genealogies.

I was sermon that Christ's

genealogy was the kind of genealogy

that your background.

And then when they told you, you would pay them $200 to make sure they told nobody else.

And that's the kind of genealogy that Jesus has.

It's the scandalous.

So brother in Asheboro, North Carolina, give us your full mailing address and you'll also receive a free copy

of Saved by Grace, a study of the five points of Calvinism.

And that will be shipped out to you by cvbbs .com.

We have an anonymous listener.

Hello, Chris, I have a question for your guest as touched on already.

If a certain religious person who is known for their benevolence is helping the poor and

downcast who professes Christ, but maybe doctrinally in error, who is to judge whether that person

is elect or not?

Isn't it the Lord?

Isn't it the Lord who knows those who are his?

I am not saying that their good works, whatever the motives are, are saving them.

Isn't it God who is the one who sees their heart and alone can save?

What do you say about that, please?

Yes, I mean, we can't judge who are the elect until they are regenerate, right?

As far as even among the lost, we cannot say to a lost person, you are

definitely not of the elect.

Because as we already just said, the genealogy of Jesus Christ contains people

who were the worst of scandalous sinners who later came to faith.

And even that happens today.

You have people on death row who proved themselves eventually to be one of God's elect because they

got saved while they were in prison and repented.

But anyway, if you could respond to our anonymous listener.

Repeat what his question is for me, one.

Let's see.

If a certain religious person who is known for their benevolence in helping the poor and downcast who professes

Christ but may be doctrinally in error, who is to judge whether that person is elect or not?

Sure.

And I would agree entirely with your comments there.

We don't judge the heart.

And we certainly don't want to judge

more harshly than we ought to, may not be as doctrinally pure

as we are, who may be even immature Christian

novices developing in their understanding of

the...

I'm with you on that one.

We leave that to the Lord.

That's the Lord's judgment.

Now, don't you think that the question would perhaps be different if she had not used the word

elect?

Because we are to use proper judgment regarding those who are...

whether or not they are regenerate.

Even if we're wrong on that issue, we are to discipline people in the body of Christ who

are behaving like they are unregenerate.

And we are, if necessary, to excommunicate them if they don't repent.

I mean, we are to treat people according to their behavior as to whether or not they are believers

and brothers and sisters.

But that is a separate issue from election, because even those people,

if we cast them out, may prove to be one of the elect if they return to God in

humble humility and repentance.

I agree entirely.

And those who, in the body of Christ, confessing Christians, nevertheless show

to be living in disobedience to Christ, His commandments

denying His truth, they certainly are the objects of Christian discipline.

And that begins with our own personal and private admonition to them, and our warning them

of the error of their way, and what will be the end of their way if they do not repent.

We have to go to our final break right now.

It'll be briefer than the last one.

If you have a question, and we do still have a couple of people waiting to have their questions asked, but please send in an email

to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Ronald Cumminger and the book, Saved by Grace,

a study of the five points of Calvinism.

I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans.

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do?

Could I just say, God bless you and walk away?

The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need.

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So if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans?

Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel,

Mississippi, 39443.

Or donate through our website, bbclaurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi,

39443.

Or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do,

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org.

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Or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Hi, I'm Stephan Limblett, assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture,

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.

Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent, biblically faithful teachers on their lineup,

sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to

firstloveradio .org.

They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological

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Firstloveradio .org also live streams my Iron Trepans Iron Radio program daily.

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Welcome back.

We are now concluding the interview that we began nearly two hours ago with our

guest, Ronald Cumminga, who is one of two authors of the book Saved by Grace, a

study of the five points of Calvinism.

If you'd like to join us on the air, do so now by emailing in your question immediately because we're rapidly running

out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We have Jared from Dry Fork, Virginia, another first -time questioner.

It's amazing.

I think all of our listeners today, I might be wrong on that, but I think all of them have been first -time

questioners.

And Jared says, my name is Jared and I'm from Dry Fork, Virginia.

I affirm the doctrines of grace as a true reflection of biblical doctrine.

I accept all five of the points of Calvinism, but I do, however, have difficulty in

articulating an explanation for the question, if the Lord has predetermined who will be

saved and who will be condemned, how will the condemned be without excuse?

Thank you for my question.

Well, I think Romans 1 involves the answer to that question, but if you could comment more thoroughly.

I think that you're right, Romans 1 does give a good explanation for that, especially

judged by God because he leaves them without excuse.

I think there are

other added, destinated certain men, that's the offensive side of

predestination, reprobation.

Although he has certain ones by and actively

ordained them to condemnation, he always does that in the way

of their own unbelief and their own wicked rejection of the gospel.

Right.

Yeah, these are not morally neutral people who are going to hell.

Just because they were not elected by God, they are being punished because of their sins that they

willfully committed.

That's right.

They're not going to hell because they are reprobate.

They're going to hell because they're sinners, impenitent.

Now, wouldn't you also say that those going to hell are not

necessarily going to hell because of an outward rejection of Christ?

Only the blood of Christ will save a sinner, but the person is

going to hell because of their sin.

In other words, they cannot have an excuse on Judgment Day, well, I was living in a country that was never evangelized, I

never heard the gospel, and of course there were thousands, if not millions, of people over the centuries who

never once heard the voice of a missionary or read a page of scripture, but they will still be in hell

if they did not come to Christ because of their sin, irregardless of whether they

rejected Christ or not.

Yes, absolutely.

It doesn't mean that there's an active rejection of Jesus Christ.

Just came back from five weeks

in Singapore to the

heathen religion,

idolatrous religion.

Right.

Amen.

We have left irresistible grace and perseverance and preservation of the saints.

Irresistible grace is also something that is confusing to many, maybe even Reformed

people, because they think, wait a minute, how could grace be irresistible?

Because when I reflect upon my life, I was resisting God through the majority

of my life.

I was running away from him.

I was refusing to bend the knee to him until I was born again.

So what do we mean by this?

We talk about that in the chapter on irresistible grace.

That's exactly the case.

All of us, by nature, resist, and that characterizes not only the

reprobate wicked, but that characterizes even we who are elect very often, even after

regeneration, how able

to...

Yes, the effectual call will not fail.

Those whom God chooses to draw to himself savingly are not going to ultimately

be able to resist, nor will they want to, eventually.

And the final letter in the Tulip, the P, some people

just call it the perseverance of the saints, but I prefer to be more full

in my description by calling it the perseverance and preservation of the saints.

There have been some, I have heard some, who have falsely accused Calvinism

of teaching some kind of meritorious salvation, because we use the

word the perseverance of the saints as if us battling through life

in our own steam and strength is somehow going to please God enough to

save us in the end.

But obviously, being Calvinists, we abhor such a notion.

So what do we mean by this?

The perseverance of the saints emphasizes our act in the faith,

the title they give to that last of

the saints, in

any way to concede to the Arminian caricature of the

rest, and God simply brings us in a pullman into

heaven.

But we are active in the connection between our activity

and God's preservation.

And of course, it's severe because God preserves us.

There's no question about it.

Amen. Amen.

And the perseverance is a fruit that we are truly his children, correct?

Absolutely.

And it's the crowning evidence of the sovereignty of God that sinners whom he

saves are saved.

He sees to that the power of the devil.

Nothing can frustrate his determination to save them, but God saves to the

uttermost.

And this has nothing to do with the very false teaching that, unfortunately,

John Wesley had developed of sinless perfectionism.

Even though we believe in the perseverance and preservation of the saints, that does not mean we reject the notion that

his true elect may and will fall occasionally in different

degrees of sin.

But the difference is that his elect will not wallow in that.

They will not remain there enslaved to that sin.

They will rise up in repentance by the grace of God and continue moving forward in obedience to him.

Sure.

That's the outstanding evidence of God's preservation of us, that he always brings us

finally to repentance.

It may take a while.

We may have to go through some bitter, hard experiences like David did,

as Sheba, and his murder of Uriah.

But in the end, God does bring us to repentance and restores us again.

Well, I'd like you, before we take any more listener questions, I'd like you to basically

summarize now what you most want etched upon the hearts and minds of our listeners in

regard to the five points of Calvinism.

I think the thing that I would want to be impressed upon them is the great truth that God saves

us by grace.

We're saved by grace.

The five points of Calvinism underscore the grace of God in saving those who are

unworthy and unable.

I think that's the thing that echoes in the heart of every sinner who knows himself.

I know within myself that if my salvation depended on me,.

I think it would be appropriate for us to give a loving word of rebuke to

Reformed Christians who are caught up in the sin of pride and arrogance.

They look upon their brethren in Christ who don't fully understand these

things.

They look upon them as being less intelligent than they are.

They look upon them, perhaps even in an extreme sense, as morons.

Of course, Reformed people do not own the corner on being arrogant

and self -righteous and proud.

I've met people from all denominational and theological stripes who would fit that

description.

The difference is, even though there are proud and arrogant Arminians and Pentecostals

and semi -Pelagians and the list goes on, the difference is that we have no

excuse.

Exactly right.

That's what I was going to say.

No excuse.

We who confess that salvation is by grace and grace alone.

We have no excuse.

We do have an anonymous listener who wants to know if you are

a determinist, someone who does not believe in

any kind of freedom of the will.

Basically, I think, if he's using that term the way I think he's using it,

he's referring to more of a hyper -Calvinist type of a person who believes that

the preaching of the gospel is not involved in any way in the regeneration of

the lost, that there is no means that God uses to save

the lost.

In fact, there are many among the primitive Baptists who believe that.

They seem to blur the distinction between election and regeneration.

But if you could, if you could comment on that.

Just that God is a God of means.

And we may not despise the means that God has determined to

use for us in salvation.

And we must be diligent in the use of those means.

Yes, just because we use means, or I should say, just because we believe God uses

means, does that mean that we are denying God deserves 100 of the praise, honor, and

glory for our salvation?

Absolutely not.

Certainly, we want to distance ourselves as Reformed Christians from that view of fatalism and

determinism.

That's not the Reformed faith.

That's paganism.

The God who has determined to save us is also the God who has determined to

save us by the use of means.

The means that he has determined and that he provides as well.

But we must use those means.

And apart from the use of those means.

Amen.

And I mean, even when you think of the fact that

Judas betrayed Christ, a devil entered him, and he betrayed

Christ, and you had Roman soldiers nailing the perfect

spotless lamb to a cross.

And even before that, you had multitudes of Jews crying out for his death.

Those that were from among his own people ethnically.

You know, these were all means that God used to bring about his redemptive

plan.

He did not just create us in heaven to remain in glory with him

without experiencing anything on this earth.

And he doesn't just zap people, as some people might think Calvinism teaches, that he just shoots a ray gun of some

kind, a holy ray gun, at the hearts of people and just zaps them to be saved.

He uses all kinds of means.

And even after, of course, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the

proclamation of his gospel is a means.

And even the ministering to the lost with the love of Christ and so on.

These are all means, are they not?

Sure.

And that also answers the objection of some.

Well, if God predestinates unto salvation, there's no reason to be involved in missions

and to be involved energetically in missions.

The answer, number one, is that God has his people in every nation, land, and tribe

under heaven.

And in this determined that the means by which the

elect will be gathered and saved is the preaching of the gospel.

And that ought to be able to be involved in missions, the means

that God has appointed and that God is going to bless.

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, the charge of

hyper -Calvinism is used very freely by those outside of the Reformed faith.

They use a very broad brush and paint anyone who is actually

historically and biblically accurate in their understanding of Calvinism as being a hyper

-Calvinist.

But there is obviously a distinction between those that are logically and

consistently representing the Reformed faith of history and especially the Reformed faith of the Bible and

those that are genuinely rightfully deserving of the label hyper -Calvinist.

Could you please summarize the distinction?

I think that the hyper -Calvinist distinguishes himself uh by

denying the necessity of the call of the gospel to all men

everywhere.

And the denial of the call of the gospel

Calvinist.

And we certainly want to distance ourselves from the

call to

people even in the church for ongoing

kind of

marked difference.

And would you not say that hyper -Calvinism is just as dangerous a

heresy as is those heresies that diminish the sovereignty of God

in Arminian circles and other places?

We who are Reformed do not think that hyper -Calvinism is some kind of a lesser

degree of sin.

In fact, it is, I think, sometimes, depending, I mean, hyper -Calvinism is not a

monolithic group of people.

There are different kinds of hyper -Calvinists.

Uh, some who have a much broader view of heaven than the Bible teach would

exist, and some who have a much more narrow view.

But, uh, this is truly something that we must

denounce.

It is not just a lesser evil than some of the Arminian heresies would,

or the semi -Pelagian heresies would lead to.

This is definitely a dangerous, uh, system of thought, isn't it?

I would concur, absolutely.

There are always the straight and narrow way into the kingdom of heaven.

On the one hand, that's the one ditch, but there's another ditch, and that's the ditch

of the one ditch as...

Well, I want to thank you so much, uh, Professor Kamenga, uh, for being on

the program today.

Once again, uh, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, the book is Saved by

Grace, a Study of the Five Points of Calvinism, by our guests Ronald Kamenga

and Ronald Henko.

And, uh, you can order that, uh, through our sponsors, uh,

cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com.

Also, you can order that through Reformed Free Publishing Association.

We thank them for providing us with the books that we have been giving away today.

Their website is rfpa .org.

R for Reformed, F for Free, P for Publishing, and A for Association,

rfpa .org.

And, uh, I want to thank you so much.

I look forward to your return.

You proved to be an excellent guest, Brother Kamenga.

And, uh, I'm probably still butchering your last name, but I'm trying my best.

You don't worry about it, Chris.

You've been very gracious as a host, and I'd be more than happy to appear on your show again.

Thank you very much for the invitation.

And, uh, send my greetings to Ronald Henko, and, uh, tell him that I would love to eventually have him on as well.

And also, uh, to, uh, Martin McGowan, and also

to, uh, David Engelsma, who has become one of my favorite guests.

I look forward to his return, uh, to Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

I know that you are very familiar with all of those, Brethren.

I am indeed.

I will definitely pass along your greetings.

And I want to remind our listeners, please pray for my dear friend, William Webster.

Uh, he is the founder of Christian Resources, a prolific writer,

banner of truth author, and, uh, published author through other publishers, a

pastor, and a longtime friend of mine going back to 1990, perhaps

even earlier.

He just recently lost his precious wife, Paula, at 69 years

of age, who is now in eternity with Christ.

So please pray for Bill and his family, and all those who survive, uh, and are

experiencing a great period of mourning, uh, through Paula leaving this earth.

But we know where she is, and that she would never trade places with us.

But I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.