The Two Humanities in Romans 5

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Good morning and welcome to the Dividing Line. Need to start off by thanking everybody that came out in Omaha, Nebraska over the weekend, met lots of folks who said they listened to the

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Dividing Line and that is always what happens when we travel and it continues to amaze me at how many people listen to this little webcast, which may not be as little as we have always thought that it was given that that's the normal thing.

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Had a great time there, didn't appreciate the winter weather, but they did say this was the first time they had had snow in May in like 140 years or something like that.

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So I guess it was rather unusual. Anyway, it was a great time there at Omaha Bible Church and look forward to get a chance to go back there.

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Reformation Montana is next coming up in just a matter of days, literally, and the debate that we'll be doing there and look forward to meeting all the folks up in that area.

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I do believe that they have the Internet there and hence there may be someone who listens to the Dividing Line up there, too.

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I don't know. We'll find out. But we did have one thing.

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I got up there on Thursday and Pastor Pat Abendroth took me to the church and he was going to show me the book room and all my books and we come walking in and we go walking over and all of a sudden we realize that because the snow they had received, the snow had somehow got this metal roof that had made it contract enough that they had a leak and there was a pretty decent flood and the primary books destroyed were mine.

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Just like the one spot, you know, where most of my books were was what got absolutely nailed.

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So he actually tweeted a picture of me staying there with a dead copy of one of my books, I forget which one it was, just totally soaked through and I mop because I was mopping up the floor to try to,

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I mean, it was the type of thing we had to mop it and then stick it in the thing and squish it. I was the only way to get the water up.

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I mean, it was puddling all over the place. It was bad. So anyways, that was sad that that happened.

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I hate seeing dead books. But we played taps and had a little memorial service and went on from there.

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But anyway, so I had a good time up there. Now, I'm going to be linking in the description of today's

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Dividing Line. Well, let's put it this way. I intend to link in the description of today's Dividing Line. Well, I'll think about that an hour and a half from now.

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I don't know. But anyway, to a donation page where you can help to make something happen this coming late

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September, early October, it looks like right now. We were thinking about trying to make this the around the world tour, but realized that trying to coordinate events on three different continents on the same trip.

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You know, I suppose if you have people that are paid to just sit around all day and do that kind of thing, maybe it can be done.

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But there's only two of us here. And so that just probably isn't going to work. So my thought was to go from South Africa to Australia and back that way.

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I'm just not going to be able to do the Australia part. We've only got one thing in London to work stuff around, and I think we can be flexible enough there to make that work.

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And so be flexible with because just I've got, by the way, if you're waiting for an email from me, I know

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I'm about a week behind right now. I'll try to get to them today as best I can. But I had gotten an email from the folks in South Africa saying, wow, there's this major university wants you to speak, but it would have to be the week after.

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And then another group has contacted me and said, oh, we didn't know you're coming. You know,

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I could go down there for three weeks without any problem. I really could. And I would love to do that.

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But here's the problem. I have a shelf life when it comes to traveling. I've got an expiration date when it comes to traveling.

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And the longer I'm out, the greater the probability that I'm going to become non -functional, as in sick, ill, whatever.

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And so I just have to I know that once I get out to about 10 days, I'm pushing it big time, 12 pretty much at max.

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And so to do that, just probably, you know,

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I hate to have people put all the effort into arranging stuff. And then I'm only there at half speed or quarter speed or whatever else it might be.

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So what we may end up having to do is use this as the initial contact trip and then, you know, go back again.

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And that can happen. That's fine. That would be exciting. And I'm very, obviously, honored at all of the contact we're getting.

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Oh, we want you to do this. You know, just didn't know you'd ever come down this far. It's like, well, the primary reason that I'm going to South Africa is to debate

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Yusuf Ismail. Yusuf Ismail is the successor of Ahmed Didat there in South Africa.

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And we want to do more than one debate. At least I want to do more than one debate with Yusuf Ismail. And there may be some others, maybe

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Adnan Rashid, maybe Shabir Ali. I don't know who the other side is actually contacting right now.

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Those are two names that have been presented. It would be interesting if Shabir and I did it, because we should be hopefully wrapping up writing our book together at that particular point in time.

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And by the way, next week, Shabir will be debating Thabiti Anyabwili. And so that will,

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I'm not sure even where that is. Yes, Ralph and Channel. So didn't Ergen debate him? Yes, he did.

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But he actually didn't. That's for later in the program. Anyhow, here's the situation.

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We need to get there. It is very expensive to fly from Phoenix, Arizona via Philadelphia to London and from London to Johannesburg, South Africa and back again.

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This trip would allow us to have our first debate on Roman Catholicism in the

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UK. And to break new ground in doing debates in South Africa.

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And quite honestly, we don't talk about money around here. But when it starts coming to big bucks, we've got to let you know that there is a need and there will be a link and you can help to get me to South Africa and back again would be nice.

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You know, if we did it that way, we could probably get a lot of folks who would donate to getting me to South Africa as long as it had the caveat

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I'd stay there. I think Ergen Kanner might even donate to that fund. But anyways, we're going to be putting that link up and we need your assistance because it is it is it ain't cheap.

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It is not cheap to fly internationally, especially that far and not even sure how we're going to do it right now.

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I normally fly U .S. Airways because that's my airline of choice.

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That's where I have all my frequent flyer miles. But they're merging with American, which is part of a completely different group.

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And so right now, to be honest with you, I don't know who we can book with from to London.

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That's fine. U .S. Airways, Pfizer. But from London to Johannesburg right now, I don't know. It's up in the air as to, you know, does

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American have flights there? Then that would be fine. But I hate being travel agent and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

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I just just get me there. Let me do my thing and we'll go from there. So any assistance that you, the wonderful listening audience of the

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Dividing Line can provide for our trip all the way down to the other side of the of the world this coming

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September, October would be wonderfully appreciated. And so we've let let you know about that.

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And I will link to that stuff on the on the website. Now, week before last,

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I believe it was, we had started looking very briefly at what

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Adam Harwood had said at the John 316 conference. And I really didn't deal much with what

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Adam Harwood said because I played John Piper's comments and responded to what

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John Piper said about Romans one and and infants and things like that and attempted to discuss that particular subject and really hadn't dealt with Adam Harwood at all.

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One of the things I said I wanted to do was to look at Romans chapter five a little more closely.

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And so we're going to start off with that on the program today. If you have your Bible, it would be good to look with us.

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I'm not going to do an in -depth exegesis of the text. I want to address the overarching issue.

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And that is basically the whole point of Romans 5, 12 and following.

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It's a tough, it's a very tough text. And Harwood addressed it briefly.

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He gave some comments on the subject, but I did not find it at all to be overly in -depth at all.

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And so I wanted to take the opportunity to actually look at this and to hopefully help all of us to have a little better understanding of it.

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Lord willing, anyways. Anyone who has looked at Romans chapter five realizes it breaks up into particular sections very clearly.

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The first 11 verses, a sort of a summary section coming out of Romans chapter four, justification that we haven't been justified by faith.

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We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. What's the result of this act of God in bringing about the state of justification?

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This mechanism whereby through the sacrifice of Christ, a person can be made right before God and can have peace with him.

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And then it's very clear. And when I say it's very clear, it's not that there isn't questions as to how it should be broken up because almost every translation at the end of verse 12 has a dash recognizing that Paul sort of breaks off in the middle of a sentence and goes someplace else and doesn't really return to his subject for quite some time.

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But basically through verse 17 and then you sort of have 18 through 21 as a directly related but another sort of subset in this particular text.

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And anyone who's ever tried to preach through it or teach through it knows that this is a difficult, difficult text.

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Only in the sense that most people try to go through it word by word or phrase by phrase without hearing what the overarching argument is to see how it all fits together.

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So let's take a look at it. And let me see if I can suggest what the overall argument is. And you can see how it all hangs together.

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Romans chapter five, verse 12, therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

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For sin, then dash, dash, dash, dash. The next part really doesn't flow naturally.

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It's more of a, well, I need to explain something about this. For sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

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Yet death reigned from Adam and Moses even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who is to come.

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But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man,

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Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin.

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For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

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For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man,

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Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men.

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For as by the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience, the many will be made righteous.

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Now, obviously, the last few verses, the conclusion has to shed light upon the questions that come up in the exegesis of the verses beforehand.

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And my experience, limited as it might be, but getting up to three decades now, my experience is that people who have a problem with this particular text focus upon the first few verses rather than listening to what the conclusion is.

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Now, let me give you an overarching concept and see if it holds everything together.

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I believe the only way to understand what Paul is saying, and especially in light of verse 18,

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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men.

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If you do not see that Paul is talking about two humanities here, if you do not see that he's talking about humanity in Adam and then humanity in Christ, and that those two humanities, though they of necessity overlap, are not contiguous, there's no equal sign here, then you will be forced by the very grammar of verse 18 to universalism.

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You'll be forced to it. Because if what is actually being said, if you don't have two humanities here, then the all men of verse 18 becomes all men whatsoever.

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Therefore, the all men of the end of verse 18 becomes all men whatsoever. And therefore, you have justification in life for all men.

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And that is one of the key universalist proof texts. There's no question about it. But if you will recognize that you're talking about all men in Adam, and what you get from Adam is what

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Adam, it's all Adam can provide you. He was your, and yes, here we go, federal head.

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He was your representative. And that therefore, you get from Adam all you can get from Adam.

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And very clearly, verse 18 presents the very thing that many people today are trying to deny, that there is this federal headship of Adam, there is this relationship that exists between all of mankind and Adam.

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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men. But before we get to the second half of that verse, what has already been the emphasis of the verses right before that?

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The free gift is not like the trespass. There's something greater here.

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And so to recognize that the one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men, very clearly,

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Paul is talking about all men who are what? In Christ.

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So if you're in Adam alone, then all you can get from your federal head is because of his trespass, and that is condemnation.

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But if you are in Christ, then you get from him the benefits of his one act of obedience.

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One act of righteousness, sorry, leading justification in life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience, the many made sinners, so by the one man's obedience, the many will be righteous.

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Which man are you in? Now we all have been in Adam, but not all are in Christ.

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Though that's very common for people to say that all are in Christ. I don't think you can make heads or tails out of Romans that way, but there are many people who take it that way.

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I, interestingly enough, just happened to hear somebody on EWTN yesterday basically saying the same thing.

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There's a lot of universalism over in Rome. But here's the point.

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What Romans chapter 5 is about is two humanities. Two humanities. The one in Adam and the one in Christ.

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Now with that in mind, then we look at it again.

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And when we look at verse 12, we can see why it is that people focus upon verse 12 to try to get around the federal headship issue.

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Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man. Well, they'll accept that. And death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

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Now what they'll say is, oh, oh, oh, see, see, see, see. Here's the problem. You Calvinists, you're just slavishly following Augustine.

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You never critically analyze Augustine. And so what you've done is you've misread this, as Augustine misread this.

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And Augustine understood this, that all men sinned in Adam. But that's not what it says.

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The f -ho there in the Greek language, that doesn't necessarily really mean it should just be translated because.

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And both Numeric and Standard ESV translate it because all sinned. Not in whom all sinned.

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And Augustine really couldn't read Greek very well. And his main language was

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Latin. And so he missed it. And you've missed it because Calvin was just an idiot who followed Augustine all the time.

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And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Believe me, I've been hearing this for a long, long, long time.

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Now, very clearly, if you wanted, if this is the only verse there, if this was, if verse 12 was followed by verse 20 or something, and you didn't have the rest of the conversation, you didn't have the discussion of by one man's disobedience, condemnation came to him.

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If that didn't come later on, then it would be hard to build the doctrine of original sin and the federal headship of Adam from just these words.

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Because you could argue based upon the text itself, well, death spread to all men because all sinned.

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That is, each individual person sinned. But I just want to stop and say, really?

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Doesn't that force you back to John 9 to ask the question, what happened to the blind man? At least in the sense that there are infants who die.

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Did they sin? Well, their parents sinned. Yeah, but now you're starting to talk about some type of relationship here.

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And you're the one saying there is no relationship here. That each man may have a, and this is, again, the argument that Harwood made was, we have a corrupt nature.

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Well, what does that mean? We're not guilty of Adam's sin, but we have a corrupt nature.

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Well, is a corrupt nature acceptable in the sight of a holy God? Is anything impure?

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Is this corruption non -moral? What's the nature of something that is corrupt that is non -moral?

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I don't understand that. I would be interested in knowing, but I don't understand exactly how that works.

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So, if you just looked at verse 12, I don't know that it would answer the question, but verse 12 doesn't stand alone. I mean,

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I think there are some strong objections you can make to the idea that, well, you know, this isn't actually saying that there's a relationship to Adam.

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It's just all men sinned, and because all men sinned, that all men die. And maybe somehow you come up with an idea that, you know, since parents sin, then there's physical possibilities a child might die.

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But the reality is there are children who die, and there's no discernible connection. The actions of the parents are great parents.

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They're healthy babies, and yet they still die. But the problem is verse 12 is introducing a section where Paul at the end is going to basically reiterate what he was saying in different words, and those words are really clear.

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So, let's look at it. Verse 13, for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given. But sin is not counted where there is no law.

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So, the point is, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was the type of one who was to come.

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Paul's saying, look, even before Sinai, even before you have the written law, death reigned.

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People died. Why? If sin is not counted where there is no law, then there has to be something more than the individual sins of individuals.

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There was not only a corruption of nature, but just as Adam spiritually died, evidently he, therefore, cannot give to his progeny spiritual life, because death reigns.

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But Paul then is very, in the next two verses, wants us to make sure this is not an equal sign issue.

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And this is important, because it wasn't until I had to teach through this years and years ago, and struggle with it myself, that I really came to understand that if some people have the idea that what we're going to have when we go to heaven is what

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Adam could have had, I say, no. What we will have will be much better.

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And it was always God's purpose to do this. I don't want to have just what Adam would have had.

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Adam was not united with Christ. And I think that's the point of verses 15 and 16.

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The free gift is not like the trespass. There is no equal sign.

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For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace that one man

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Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of the one man's sin, for the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

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There is, this is where the equal ultimacy stuff gets thrown out as well. You know, we've talked about that before.

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It's very common for those who misrepresent Reformed theology to say, well, it's equal ultimacy. The salvation of someone or the damnation of someone, that's just the reverse of the same coin.

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No, it's not. Look at what is necessary for the salvation of someone. Much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man

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Jesus Christ abounded for many. And by the way, have you ever noticed something just in passing?

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And again, I just always do this because this is something that, I don't know, I'm just very, very thankful that I learned this.

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In fact, this is weird. I remember where I, I remember the room I was in when this struck me like a ton of bricks in college.

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I was in, I don't even know if this room still, if this building still stands or in and I haven't been on campus for ages, but, but, uh, the old

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Fleming classroom, no, the old science classroom, uh, science classrooms, the very first, this would be the, for those of you from Grand Canyon, uh,

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Western most room, uh, Northwest most room. That's where I had biology and all the rest of that stuff.

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I was sitting there. Don't ask me why I was reading B .B. Warfield in that room, but I was reading B .B. Warfield and we make the book available.

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Um, yeah, Lord of Glory. Thank you. I was reading Lord of Glory. And I was just struck with the reality of the fact that we miss the vast majority of the evidence of the deity of Christ because we're just not looking for it.

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But you see verse, verse 15, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man,

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Jesus Christ abounded for many. Do you think that some kind of divine grace joined with just creaturely grace?

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How could Paul in speaking of such lofty things, talk about the grace of God and in the very same breath, then say the grace of that one man,

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Jesus Christ, you think those are two different kinds of grace or is that the gracious action of the

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Trinity itself, father and son in this particular instance. Anyways, just, I had mentioned that there's just so much of that out there that so much of that in the text that we, we skip over it.

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But the point is that the giving of this grace is an extension of God's powerful grace.

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Condemnation does not require the extension of God's power. That's the natural result of the violation of God's law.

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There is no equal ultimacy. The free gift is greater than the condemnation.

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And the free gift is not like the result of the one man's sin for the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation.

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Condemnation to who? Well, evidently we're being told by many people today only to Adam.

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But that would completely destroy Paul's point here. The many at the end of verse 15, it's the many who are going to receive justification, verse 16, and therefore the one man's trespass of verse 17, death reigned through that one man.

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Death reigned over other people. Clearly, you have to see the two humanities here.

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Those who are in Adam, because the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man because of their relationship to him, federal headship.

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Much more will those who receive, notice it's a different group. All of us were in Adam, but all who are in Adam are not in Christ.

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Much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man,

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Jesus Christ. There's two groups here. One group is smaller than the other group. One group is a subset of the other group.

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We had as our federal head, Adam, and we receive from him condemnation. But if we are placed in Christ, then we receive from our federal head,

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Christ, the gift of life, the gracious gift of life and the gracious gift of justification.

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And so death reigns. So death is the ultimate authority from Adam over those who are his.

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And then the free gift of righteousness reigns in life through the one man,

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Jesus Christ, and those who are his. So Paul then realizes,

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I need to summarize this. And if you can't read verse 12 in light of verse 18 and following,

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I'm just suggesting maybe you've got a tradition that's in your way, you know?

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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men.

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Now, see, that's awful clear. That's clearer than verse 12 was. It can be clearer now because he has laid out the categories.

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But one trespass led to condemnation for all men. He's already told us who that is.

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Those were in Adam. So one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men who are in Christ.

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Again, if you haven't seen those who received, if you haven't been following this, if you just pull these things out, you can make them proof texts for anything.

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But they're not proof texts for anything. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men.

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And notice the focus is not upon what we do, but what upon they did. For as by the one man's disobedience, that's

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Adam, the many were made sinners by his disobedience. Yes, I am a sinner.

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I am responsible for my sin. I love my sin. As an unregenerate person,

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I loved my sin. As a regenerate person, I hate my sin. But the point is for by one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners.

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How do you who deny federal headship, how do you who deny that we are united with Adam, that he is our representative, how do you deal with this?

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So by the one man's obedience, the many will be made righteous. Here is the grounds, and it is proper grounds for why many have said, if you don't like the federal headship of Adam, then you don't like the doctrine of justification.

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Because by the one man's obedience, Christ's obedience, the many will be made righteous.

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Not by what I do. This passage blows away the idea of synergism and works righteousness and all this stuff.

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And unfortunately, it's testimony to the singular graciousness of God's gift of salvation is often passed over by most of us because we're sort of uncomfortable trying to explain what it's actually saying.

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Whereas by the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. So by the one man's obedience, the many will be righteous. There it is.

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There is the proper interpretation of the text, even going back to verse 12.

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But as I said, my experience is those who deny this don't really focus on 19.

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They focus on 12 to try to get around it at that point. So it's a tremendous text.

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It's an application text. It's sort of a, I've now laid out what the gospel is.

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I've laid out that you have peace. And before I get into the real practical applications, I need to sort of give you this overarching concept here that you can see that you're an

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Adam. You can only get from Adam what he can give you. If you're in Christ and only if you're in Christ, can you receive what

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God will give you then. So there's Romans chapter five.

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And is it an important issue? I think it is. Can someone not understand that and still be a good

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Christian? Yes, of course. But any sub -biblical understanding of God's truth will limit our ability to glorify

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God. Let me say it again. Any sub -biblical understanding of God's truth will limit our ability to glorify

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God. Isn't that why we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ? I mean, if the call to glorify

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God is not all -encompassing of all of our life, well, if it is, let me change the theoretical here.

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If that is encompassing of all that we are doing in Christian life, then the command to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ makes perfect sense. We can more greatly glorify him when we are consistent in our understanding of his truth.

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It should be our desire to rid ourselves of sub -biblical human traditions and misunderstandings of God's truth.

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And that is something we are called to do for the entirety of our lives. The entirety of our lives.

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We never arrive. And is it not true that many of the times that we fail to glorify

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God is because we are ignorant of what his truth is? Now, trust me,

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I know there are times we know exactly what his truth is and we still fail to glorify God. That's sin. But are there not times you can look back over your life and go, man, if I just understood that then.

34:48

If I just had that foundation upon which to make that decision. Right? So that's how it is.

34:55

So, am I saying someone that... And again, let me just mention, there's a difference between someone disagreeing out of tradition or ignorance and someone knowing that something is true and denying it.

35:07

There's a vast difference between those two things. And there are many people who, for tradition's sake, have a different perspective, but when you bring the word of God to them, then they go, wow, that's something

35:24

I'd never thought of before. That's something I would like to do. I want to believe that.

35:29

I want to follow God's word wherever it goes. So there's Romans 5. I promise to get to it.

35:34

I hope that is useful to you. Every once in a while, we like to just do some teaching around here.

35:40

That's about the only thing between debating and doing a little teaching that's about all I can do fairly well, and certainly not as well as many others.

35:49

But that's what we do. We're going to take a brief break and then come back and shift gears and talk about, well, what we need to talk about.

35:58

We'll be right back. What is

36:07

Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen But Free, A New Cult, Secularism, False Prophecy Scenarios?

36:15

No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

36:27

In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.

36:34

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.

36:41

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

36:49

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

36:54

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the

36:59

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomin .org.

37:07

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

37:18

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the

37:25

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning

37:30

Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45. Evening services are at 6 .30

37:38

p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805

37:46

North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.

37:53

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

38:00

where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

38:07

Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program, the need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

38:19

I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet they have never been confronted with their sin.

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Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner, making no excuses.

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Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect savior.

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We are to come before the holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well.

38:52

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

38:58

Thank you. And welcome back to The Dividing Line on a

39:17

Tuesday morning, probably going to be going long today, probably a jumbo edition of the program today.

39:24

You can tell by my voice, not really excited about this next section, but at the same time,

39:33

I'm truly troubled and bothered by the fact that there are so many people, even people who regularly access our

39:43

Facebook page or things like that, that just don't seem to get the idea that there are some things you don't just simply sweep under a rug.

39:52

There are some things you don't just say, ah, well, that's old news. Not sure what caused it.

39:58

My theory is that some of Ergin Kanner's friends, heroes as he calls them, probably started contacting him or maybe

40:12

Ergin was driving down the road and tuned in Janet Mefford or something. I don't know. But I've been doing a lot of interviews over the past couple of weeks, have a number more to do on what every

40:24

Christian needs to know about the Quran. And I just get the feeling that either people contacted him or he heard some of these interviews.

40:36

I don't know. But it just bugged him to no end because you know that for a while, in fact,

40:43

I remember, I forget which program it was. It may have been the Jewish Voice Broadcast.

40:49

I'm not sure. But Ergin Kanner was on and this person was saying, you are the expert on the subject of Islam.

41:00

And I think he's probably pretty bummed about the fact that instead of standing before audiences of thousands of young people chanting his name, he is now a vice president of academic affairs or something at a school between 120 and 150 students.

41:22

That really doesn't fit his ways, shall we say. But something caused

41:31

Ergin Kanner to take to Twitter over the weekend and to say some pretty amazing things.

41:41

And of course, in the process to attack me, not, of course, by name or giving my, you know, when

41:48

I respond to him, I give his Twitter address. Address so people can see that. He's not going to do that with me.

41:55

But he seems to think that by taking shots at me, that that somehow amounts to a defense of his many, many, many, many lies.

42:08

But as it may, he started off with, these are all tweets from Ergin Kanner.

42:15

Agreed or they will falsely accuse others of doing so, pretending to be righteous, but actually just be slanderers.

42:23

So I think someone responded that said, I would if he or his questions mattered in any way whatsoever.

42:30

They don't. Fair minded, ridiculous. So evidently, the questions that I have asked, especially those by video regarding when he came to the

42:40

United States, why he lied for so many years about coming at an older age than he did, why he lied about where he was born, why he lied about where he studied jihad, why he lied about his father having multiple wives when he came to the

42:56

United States, why he lied about debating in Arabic, why he lied about debating all these

43:02

Muslims and mosques and all the rest of these things. The lies, the lies, the lies over and over, all documented.

43:09

We've kept the files, thankfully, even though he and his minions have been going through the internet for years now, trying to wipe out all evidence.

43:19

We have our own hard drives, so unless he can get an EMP to go off and wipe out everything, we still have the documentation.

43:29

Still there. That's why I could put up on the website a whole list of videos, could have gone through and given a whole list of blog articles, screen captures from his own website where he's promoting these lies, he's in control of these things, he did them.

43:52

There's no question about it. But these questions don't matter, you see. The fact that it has been pointed out that there are true former

44:04

Muslims, and by the way, I've never questioned that Ergin Kanner was in some way, shape, or form influenced by Islam.

44:11

His father was clearly a Muslim, that he was some mujahid or something, is of course ridiculous. That he was surrounded by caliphs when he died is also ridiculous.

44:23

But his father was out of his life as far as living with him fairly early on, and all the evidence is he was raised by a not overly particularly religious mother outside of Columbus, Ohio, and he lived a pretty normal life.

44:42

Normal life, surrounded by Christians, so all his stuff about, I came here, I only lived in majority Muslim countries, he's never lived in majority

44:48

Muslim country, not once. Well, he might have taken a vacation there once. That's not what he said.

44:55

The context of what he said was, I lived in majority Muslim countries, when I came here, I thought you hated me. He lived in Columbus, Ohio.

45:04

Well, just outside of Columbus, Ohio. It was all lies, and he used those lies to create emotions and book deals, but emotions even from the pulpit, that was the real bad thing about it, is that the pulpit itself was sullied.

45:26

But the fact is there are Muslims who are true Muslims, who have left

45:31

Islam and embraced Jesus Christ, and Ergin Kanner's behavior and actions have hurt these people.

45:41

You see, Ergin Kanner had what would be a wonderful testimony, if his theology allowed it to be.

45:53

You see, his testimony could have been, I came from a broken home, my dad was a

45:59

Muslim, my mom wasn't really much of anything, we were influenced by Islam, but we didn't live it, but then in high school,

46:10

I heard the gospel, and I repented of my sins, embraced Jesus Christ. Well, that just wasn't enough.

46:18

And when that's not enough, folks, it's tragedy. When that's not enough, it makes me wonder if you're actually a

46:24

Christian in the first place. And so we've asked some very serious questions because his actions have brought disrepute to the

46:34

Christian gospel, his actions have brought disrepute to the church, and especially to the ministry that I pursue and others pursue amongst

46:44

Muslims, and that Ergin Kanner has lied through his teeth claiming that he has pursued amongst

46:51

Muslims. He lied about debating Shabir Ali, he lied about debating

46:56

Abdul Saleeb, he won't tell us who he debated in Nebraska, and I was just in Nebraska, and there's actually videos of me in Nebraska, so you don't even have to question that.

47:11

Just a massive fabric of lies on the part of Ergin Kanner.

47:18

He simply has zero credibility to anyone who has taken the time. And the fascinating thing is today, if you listen to him today, if you go listen to the

47:25

Ankerberg shows that were just done, if you go listen to it, he has learned part of his lesson.

47:33

Now he talks about being born in Sweden. Why wasn't he doing that before? Why is he in Hawaii saying,

47:40

I was born in Istanbul? Why the change?

47:47

If we are all a bunch of liars, and if everything we were saying was wrong, how come he's changed his story?

47:52

And for those of you foolish enough and naive enough to be defending this man, wake up.

48:01

I mean, for some of you, it's just because you hate me and you hate Reformed theology, and so you will believe anything as long as you think it can be used against Reformed theology, and even

48:11

Kanner's stirring up those flames, as we'll see here in a moment. But the rest of you, wake up.

48:20

You are being used. It's just amazing. Anyway, the questions, they don't matter.

48:32

Next one. Okay, you're proving my point. The only people who thought I was guilty, the only people, ready, folks?

48:39

The only people who thought I was guilty are the hypers and their

48:44

Muslim partners. The rest see was it was.

48:49

It's probably what it was. The rest. So the only people who think that Eric and Kanner lied, the only people who listened to that video where my

49:02

Arabic tutor and I go through his TBN -level Arabic, TBN tongues -level

49:08

Arabic, and demonstrate that he was lying to each and every audience.

49:17

The article that I tweeted just a little while ago from our channel,

49:24

Rat Jason, where he has the videos from the Marines where Kanner stood in front of the

49:30

Marines and he allowed the person introducing him to repeat all these lies about how old he was when he came, his dad was a mujahid, all the rest of this stuff.

49:41

He never corrected a thing that was said and then lied in his presentation, being presented as an individual to the

49:52

U .S. Marines who are about to go over to Iraq and Afghanistan as if he was an expert in understanding the mind of the jihadist and he grew up outside of Columbus, Ohio and lived there since he was two stinking years old.

50:06

I think, honestly, there's fraud there on an amazing level. I'm not sure why the

50:13

Marines haven't proceeded with that, but be that as it may. If you see all that stuff and you go, this man is dishonest, then you are either a hyper -Calvinist or you're a

50:31

Muslim. It's the only people who thought I was guilty. Does this man actually believe this?

50:38

I mean, nobody can tell. The man does not know how to speak truth. He has lied so many times.

50:44

How could we ever know when he's actually saying something true? But my real concern would be he actually believes this.

50:51

Now, he knows it's not true though because he knows why he lost his job at Liberty. He knows why he's not staying in front of those crowds.

50:57

He knows why he's not the president. He knows why he's now at Arlington Bible College, but he lives in a world of self -deception.

51:07

A world of self -deception. I find it interesting the parallel we see in politics that if you say something critical about someone who thinks in a particular way or some particular individual, the immediate reaction is you're this or you're that.

51:26

And there have been people who are Arminian who have suffered the consequences of trying to stand up and say, wait a minute, this is wrong.

51:35

And suddenly they're now painted as you're a hyper -Calvinist, you're Muslim -friendly, you're this, you're that.

51:43

Muslim -friendly. And so typical. Someone on Twitter just said you should have called the book what every canner should know about the

51:52

Quran. Well, we'll talk about that in a moment.

51:57

Anyways, by the way, as I said, the last in this series of tweets that I posted yesterday before all of my video refutation was to all my friends, calling, texting, et cetera, same old fight with same 20 hypers.

52:19

I just got tired of them attacking others. What he's doing, very obviously, is he is seeking to tap into the rabid anti -Calvinism of his followers.

52:33

And as we have pointed out, documented over and over again, Calvinism has nothing to do with this.

52:41

To the truthful person, which Ergen Kanner and his followers are not, to the truthful person, you look back and you go, okay, you had the 2006 thing.

52:54

You had the debate which was scuttled by the people in Lynchburg. They're the ones who reneged on signed documents through their own reputation under the bus.

53:06

That's documented again. There's only one side that provided all the documentation of that.

53:12

And you're talking to that side. The other side just lied about it. And, but from 2007 until this started in late 2009, for about two years there,

53:28

I didn't care about Ergen Kanner. I didn't care about what he was doing.

53:33

It just wasn't on the radar screen. You can look at the blog. We've talked about this. We've documented this. It wasn't until, ironically, he appeared on a

53:42

Calvary Chapel program taking shots at me that I then made a comment about him.

53:49

And that's when the Muslim fellow in London contacted me and said, have you seen my stuff on Ergen Kanner?

53:58

That's what started all of it. So the idea that, well, you know, if he was a

54:03

Calvinist, you wouldn't be doing this. Are you kidding? He was a Calvinist. I would have been on the phone to his pastor.

54:13

There would have been much more we could have done if this guy actually had a non -subbiblical theology.

54:20

But there wasn't anything that could be done where he was. So this idea of hypers, first of all, that's a lie.

54:27

And again, Ergen Kanner should know it's a lie. And he probably does know it's a lie. But lying is a way of life for the man.

54:36

He just can't speak honestly. So you have hypers and their

54:42

Muslim partners all meant to, again, tie into the emotional aspect of his followers because he realizes his followers not big on the thinking stuff, much more on the emotion stuff.

54:58

Then he goes on, and blasphemes, some would say they're without excuse, wouldn't they? Those who stood with me, they've known me 30 years.

55:06

One final before I'm done. Never defend against false accusations. Jesus never did. I won't either. Have a nice day.

55:16

Yep, once again, you prove my point. Paul stood against governors. Those accusing me, not governors, not even close.

55:21

I pay no heed, which is why I'm now Arlington Bible College. I've changed my story, and I now talk about being born in Sweden.

55:32

Before, they were just people blogging in their basements, in their parents' home. But I've had to change my entire story because, well, what they were saying was actually true.

55:45

To that little cadre of people, they're neither colleagues, professors, nor friends. Those that are found me innocent.

55:52

So all of Ergen Kanner's colleagues, professors and friends, found him. He's saying he's innocent.

55:58

He's never lied. There are entire lists of documented lies.

56:07

You can listen to his, you can watch him on video with his mouth moving. But I'm innocent.

56:13

That's self -deception on a level that is amazing. We know he's seen all these things.

56:22

We know that his TAs and graduate assistants were listening to this program and gathering all this stuff up, and they'd be grabbing the videos.

56:31

That's the only way that they could write up over at Ymir Kanner's college the list of absurdities, wild -eyed excuses that led to what is

56:43

Hadith 2425? Still posted on Norman Geisser's website someplace. So we know that they know what the information is.

56:54

They know what the data says. I'm innocent. This man makes

57:01

Bill Clinton look honest. He does. It's amazing.

57:09

And he says, the obsessed remain obsessed. I hope they find peace. Now, this is smart political activity.

57:18

This is smart political activity because what you do is you just ride it out.

57:24

He went quiet for a while and he's sort of been laying low.

57:31

But now it looks like he wants to finally get back in the limelight. And so what you do is if someone brings, oh, that's just old stuff.

57:39

Yeah, it's three years old. Ooh, three years. That's ancient history, huh? The obsessed remain obsessed.

57:51

I hope they find peace. No need to prove anything. Certainly not you.

57:56

Again, three schools looked at it all, finding exonerated. Exonerated.

58:04

Exonerated. What was it that Liberty said? Self -contradictory, factual misstatements.

58:12

That's an exoneration. But, you know, again, that is pure self -deception on Cantor's part.

58:22

I mean, just horrific. But there are many other people, many other people that are responsible for equipping this man and allowing this man to engage in this kind of activity.

58:38

Many other people. Yeah, as Ralph said, Ralph just said what you said in channel.

58:45

Sounds like Jay Carney. Benghazi was a long time ago. Yep, that's exactly what these people are doing. That's exactly what

58:51

Liberty did. Oh, that's in the past. We got to look to the future. I'm surprised they haven't tried that in the what's the what's the big, huge trial here in Phoenix right now?

59:03

Jody Arias. Yeah, I'm so sick of that. I have not. I have not watched a second of coverage of that, but it's all through Twitter.

59:09

It's just disgusting. Now it's all in the past. Don't worry about that. That's exactly what they're doing.

59:17

I hold many other people accountable. First and foremost, Liberty University. Their committee that looked into these things and then produced a public statement that makes the

59:32

Obama White House look honest in its public statement. I mean, it was simply.

59:39

We don't want to get sued by anybody. We don't want to get sued by anybody.

59:49

That's all it was. They didn't do anything for the good of the church, for the good of the ministry to Muslims, anything like that.

59:56

They just covered their ankles and said, well, you know, and they wouldn't even be honest enough to say, well, we're gonna get rid of them.

01:00:06

We're just gonna do it slowly. I hold Liberty accountable.

01:00:13

I hold Arlington Bible College accountable. Now, I happen to know that there are staff people at Arlington that did not want

01:00:18

Kanner to come. Well, congratulations. And there were people at Liberty that were glad to see him go. I understand all of that.

01:00:24

I'm talking about the leadership, the people that made the final decisions, exonerated.

01:00:32

Well, Eric and Kanner, if you've been exonerated, why don't you answer the questions now? Why don't you answer the questions?

01:00:40

Because they don't matter. They don't matter. It doesn't matter. If I lied about where I was born, when

01:00:49

I came here, what I was trained to do, what I could do, what I was engaged in doing, none of that stuff just doesn't matter.

01:01:01

And he says, and I also have to find, have to have divinitive video proving that we didn't land the moon. 9 -11 was caused by aliens.

01:01:07

So I guess that's how you respond to, you know, why don't you provide some documentation of what you're saying?

01:01:15

You just, you just attack all documentation. No, just a small band of, of cyber boys and their second and third generation avatars.

01:01:24

You know, avatars aren't real, right? Kanner's always been known for his sarcasm.

01:01:31

And I will not repent for their false accusations nor sins I did not commit ever.

01:01:37

They're all false. Just because you've got video of me and my mouth is moving and I'm saying the words, they must've edited it.

01:01:48

It's, it's, it's all a grand conspiracy. It's just like what Hillary said.

01:01:53

It's a great right -wing conspiracy. This is a great hyper Muslim conspiracy, right?

01:01:59

Must be. Well, this has been fun, but I must get home. In summation,

01:02:07

I categorically deny the charges and those who brought them.

01:02:13

That sounds like a man that should stand up for his principles. Come on this program.

01:02:22

Let's dialogue openly. As I said to somebody, Ergen Kanner would never, ever, ever engage me in an open forum on these issues.

01:02:37

He would never do it. I could walk into any place that he'd like to name, set up a computer, connect it to an audio system and a video projector.

01:02:50

That's all I'd need to do. Because I've got the files. Here you are,

01:02:55

Ergen. Born in Istanbul. Here you are, Ergen. My dad brought multiple wives.

01:03:01

Here you are, Ergen. Debating in Muslim mosques, in Arabic against Imams. You didn't do it,

01:03:08

Ergen, and you know it. I think what bothers him the most is the one exposing him has.

01:03:16

Not in Arabic. It's one thing I haven't done. I have not debated in Arabic, nor could I. But I've been in more than one mosque now.

01:03:27

Been in more than one mosque now. Just had someone on Twitter. As an LU student, I can honestly say that most of us who know the situation want to see him repent.

01:03:36

Very sad. Well, we've called for it, but man alive. The question really now is, is it a matter of repentance or is it a matter of conversion?

01:03:48

We continue on. I neither seek their counsel nor advice. Their charges, much like their degrees, are fraudulent.

01:03:55

That is why such heroes stand with me. So now Ergen Kanner has decided to go the

01:04:01

Peter Lumpkins route and evidently would like to say that Grand Canyon University, Fuller Theological Seminary, and Columbia Evangelical Seminary are all fraudulent.

01:04:15

Oh, no, no, no. It's just Columbia. Well, wait a minute. Well, actually, Columbia has never claimed to be ATS accredited, and there are a number of excellent schools today that are not

01:04:23

ATS accredited, and there are a number of people out there that are doing tremendous scholarship that didn't go to schools that are

01:04:29

ATS accredited. So I really don't want to go there. So I'll call it a diploma mill, but I can't do that because if it was a diploma mill, then there would be people who just bought a diploma.

01:04:36

No one's ever done that after all these years. And so I'll just throw it out there and hope people are stupid enough to believe what

01:04:42

I'm saying, despite the fact that everything I'm saying has been refuted a thousand times over. And the one thing

01:04:47

I will hope they will never do is to really think through what I just said. Because you see, then they might go, hmm,

01:04:56

Ergen seems to be claiming to be a great scholar. So why don't I take what he's written on Islam and now

01:05:04

I can compare it with this fraud, James White. And they might sit down with unveiling

01:05:09

Islam and they might sit down with whatever Christian needs to know about the Quran and they might read them. And they will find a massive difference between what

01:05:20

Ergen Kanner produces and what I've produced. They'll actually be able to look up my references because I happen to have actually engaged with Hadith.

01:05:30

I've read both Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. And hence when

01:05:36

I referenced them, you will notice I referenced them in such a way that you can actually find the references. You can't do that with over 50 % of the references in unveiling

01:05:44

Islam. Because that proves that the person making the citation was actually not dealing with the original sources themselves.

01:05:52

And for some reason, the schooling I had, that fraudulent diploma mill stuff, they taught me to actually use original sources and to cite them correctly.

01:06:06

Evidently, Ergen Kanner's tremendously superior South African degree didn't teach him to actually know how to cite the different stream,

01:06:19

Sahih al -Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawood or Jami At -Tirmidhi. And then people follow him in that era.

01:06:28

Not a good idea, Ergen, to go down that route. I know P .D. Lumpkins is telling you to do that, but it's not a good idea to follow those kinds of guys because they don't know what they're doing.

01:06:39

Someone might compare and go, wow, massive difference.

01:06:51

Because they know me, Kanner says, my small band of attackers know nothing about me. The conferences, camps, churches at which

01:06:58

I speak, they're my friends. Yeah, I know. That's why they've been deleting all of your sermons and videos at your request, because they're your friends.

01:07:09

Let me tell you something. If they were your friends, they'd be calling you to repentance and faith too.

01:07:21

Just a few more. And I shall keep doing exactly what I've been doing for decades, humble before God and unrepentant before the

01:07:27

Calvin boys. You're not doing exactly what you've been doing for decades.

01:07:36

You're not. You used to claim to be going around and how many countries was it?

01:07:41

It kept changing. How many countries and how many states in which he was doing debates with Shabir Ali and Abdul Saleeb.

01:07:49

You're not making those claims anymore, Ergin. Why? Why? Unrepentant before the

01:08:00

Calvin boys. What about the non -Calvinists who have called you to repentance?

01:08:08

What about the non -Calvinists who have recognized your lies? Ergin? Oh, I guess they just don't exist.

01:08:19

And if you wish, keep on, keep on bringing accusers of the brethren. It's not company

01:08:25

I'd wish to keep according to Revelation 12 .10. Now, here's a man who's making accusations.

01:08:31

They're false accusations. And every accusation

01:08:37

I've brought against Ergin Kanter normally had video or published backing to it.

01:08:44

You tell me, Ergin. And as I said, the last one that I've put up here,

01:08:50

I haven't looked today. Well, I looked this morning, didn't see anything this morning. To all my friends calling and texting, et cetera, same old fight with same 20 hypers.

01:08:58

I just got tired of them attacking others' smiley face. Now, by the way, if you would like to defend

01:09:12

Ergin Kanter, if Ergin Kanter would like to defend Ergin Kanter, if Ymir Kanter would like to call, if Peter Lumpkins would like to call 877 -753 -3341.

01:09:24

We've still got about 20 minutes left in the program. 877 -753 -3341.

01:09:30

There are people who have no idea why we're talking about this. You weren't around in 2010. And despite the accusation of obsession, we don't talk about it all the time.

01:09:41

We put the documentation out there. When the need arises, we address it. It scares me that so many

01:09:50

Christians think that three years is a long time. It frightens me.

01:09:58

It frightens me that there are people who think that the integrity of the Christian pulpit is something that can be trampled underfoot as it was trampled underfoot by Ergin Kanter, and it just doesn't matter.

01:10:09

It frightens me that there are people who think that Ergin Kanter has repented. I think he just said he hasn't. Weren't we being told for a long time that he had?

01:10:16

But it sounds like he hasn't. But you see, folks,

01:10:26

I've explained it before. Let me explain it again. This has nothing to do with Calvinism or Minyanism. Ergin Kanter was going around claiming to do what

01:10:36

I actually do. He was claiming to debate Shabir Ali. He never debated Shabir Ali. He was claiming to go into mosques doing debate against Muslims.

01:10:45

He didn't do it. He was claiming to do what

01:10:50

I do. Now, I actually interact with people like Shabir Ali.

01:10:56

I've debated Shabir Ali. Shabir Ali and I are writing a book together, I debate the

01:11:02

Muslims. I have to have integrity. And so I've been straight up front.

01:11:10

I've been straight up front with my motivations. There was even a time period between 2007 and 2010 where when people would ask about Islam, I'd say, well, you know, the

01:11:24

Kanters, because I just assumed, I, like many of you, just assumed that people had vetted these guys or that they just wouldn't be so bold.

01:11:35

I, even after the way we were treated by Ergin and Ymir Kanter, even after the, and go back, there's a

01:11:42

PDF on our website, full documentation, everything that was exchanged between myself and Ergin and Ymir Kanter and Tom Askelos, all there.

01:11:50

We're the ones that have been up front with all of this stuff from the start. Even after all of that,

01:11:58

I just assumed that their rabid anti -Calvinism was a twisted, inaccurate understanding of what reformed theology was born out of their having been what they claimed, raised as Muslims.

01:12:15

So I understand if you just accepted the whole story. I understand if you're shocked to find out that it was just that, a story made up by Ergin Kanter and that even during that time period between 2001, 9 -11, he was at what was the

01:12:33

First Baptist Dallas within a few months of 9 -11. All of a sudden, Butch Kanter became

01:12:39

Ergin Mehmet Kanter and he started trading on his

01:12:46

Muslim background. Even during that time period when he would be contacted by Turkish newspapers, people who could check him out, he told the truth.

01:12:57

I was born in Sweden. I moved here when I was two something. But then when he's staying in front of churches, he treats

01:13:02

Christians as a bunch of naive individuals who can easily be deceived.

01:13:08

Folks, there's a wolf amongst the sheep. And I asked the question.

01:13:14

I asked the question when I posted the blog article yesterday, where are the discernment ministries here?

01:13:24

Where's Liberty? Where's Arlington? Where are the people who know better that are just sitting on their hands?

01:13:34

Where's the folks from Veritas Theological Seminary, which we started calling Pravda? Because they still allow him to teach.

01:13:42

They still allow him to teach on a subject where he has been disqualified. Where are they?

01:13:52

Don't know. Evidently, they've fallen into the same trap that says, Come on.

01:13:58

That was 2000. So 2010. They didn't even have the iPhone 5 back then.

01:14:04

It doesn't matter. Is that really how we think? Is that what we want to say to the

01:14:10

Muslim world? Yeah, well, you know, he shut up for six months. So that's, is that evangelical purgatory or something?

01:14:17

He's now been cleansed. Amazing. Amazing. I categorically deny the charges brought against me.

01:14:31

Innocent, exonerated, false accusations. That's Eric McCann.

01:14:40

So you'll see the, I guess there's this new BillboardMaker .com. That was a good graphic that someone on Twitter made.

01:14:47

And I asked if I could borrow it. Lies about his past, won't repent of it. Romans 2 .4. What's Romans 2 .4?

01:14:53

The kindness of God leads you to repentance, Ergen. Have you looked around? You're not where you used to be.

01:15:02

There is no light at the end of this tunnel that you're digging. And of course, there is that statement of scripture.

01:15:16

Colossians 3 .9. Do not lie to one another. Seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices.

01:15:25

Do not lie to one another. That means the church, Ergen. That means your students,

01:15:30

Ergen. Your employers, Ergen. It also means you. Don't lie to yourself.

01:15:37

You know you are. And to the church.

01:15:44

If you say, look, tired of all this stuff. Tired of you're discussing it.

01:15:51

You're obsessed. Give it up. Okay, someone explain to me biblically. If there is no repentance.

01:15:59

There's no confession. There's no repentance. There's no restoration. Exactly when does the command to not lie and expose the unfruitful works of darkness.

01:16:09

Exactly when does that expire? I can't find it in the Greek text. I've looked in the critical apparatus.

01:16:14

I can't find it there either. When does that expire? And when did you get the idea that as long as time passes, even if someone doesn't repent, that you have to forgive them?

01:16:26

Where'd you get that? Is that being taught somewhere on a radio station that I'm not familiar with?

01:16:34

And then on top of all of that, the guy out of the blue suddenly comes out blasting, declaring his total innocence.

01:16:41

Having repented in the past by, according to his friends. Well, exonerated. But he's never made that claim.

01:16:49

He's always been innocent. Well, there is a time when his primary spokespersons, when he went silent, has said he was sorry about his misstatements.

01:17:02

No, of course, he's never said it. If that was useful for a while to help him get another job, then I guess it was useful.

01:17:10

But Ergen, attacking me isn't going to get you anywhere. Because unlike you,

01:17:18

I have been transparent up front about where I've gone to school and what work

01:17:24

I've done. And the problem is people have actually read my books. People have actually watched my debates.

01:17:30

And if you just sit there and attack my scholarship without ever interacting with my scholarship, it just doesn't wash with them.

01:17:38

I've never lied about where I went. I've never lied about those things. You can't make the peril.

01:17:43

It ain't going to stick. It will work for that small cadre of your friends who absolutely have no capacity whatsoever to examine your claims critically.

01:17:56

But that's not who I'm concerned about. I already know where they're going. I know what they're going to do.

01:18:07

Someone on Twitter just announced they just got blocked. I wonder if there is a maximum block list and how many people you can have on your block list.

01:18:22

Because B the Calvinist just got blocked too. I'm sorry. He dared to have my

01:18:29

ID and the same thing he said to Eric Kanner because he was attacking

01:18:36

Columbia Theological Seminary for no reason since Columbia has never made a claim that wasn't true.

01:18:43

And once again, if my education taught me to deal with original resources, to deal with original sources, there are end notes.

01:18:54

And when I was talking about especially important Hadith, especially on the subject of the

01:18:59

Mithmanic revision, I even provided you with the Arabic Hadith references.

01:19:09

Eric Kanner didn't do that. Because quite honestly, when it comes to that kind of stuff,

01:19:14

Eric Kanner is sloppy. He's lazy. Just throw stuff out there. Believe me, because I'm Eric Kanner.

01:19:22

I don't ever tell people to do that. I didn't do that in the King James only controversy.

01:19:28

I didn't do that in the Roman Catholic controversy. I didn't do that in letters to a Mormon elder. I didn't do that in justification, in the work on justification to God who justifies.

01:19:38

That's not... See, Ergen, what you don't seem to understand is that I write my books with a view to eternity.

01:19:46

And I know eternity is coming. I don't know how much longer I've got in this world.

01:19:53

It could be 24 hours. I want to leave something behind that's actually going to make a difference.

01:20:01

And so I have to go to that level. I have to do those things. Evidently, you don't understand that. And that's a shame.

01:20:09

I don't understand that at all. Sad. So the great evangelical cover -up continues, but now it's not so much cover -up as,

01:20:19

I never did anything. I am as pure as the driven snow. I have just been persecuted by hyper -Calvinists and Muslims.

01:20:28

Y 'all need to invite me to come speak at your church because I'm a persecuted man.

01:20:35

That evidently is what we've got going on now. The great evangelical cover -up. And I would imagine that there are some people who have helped with that who are now going, why did you open your mouth?

01:20:47

Our excuses were bad enough to see them shredded once again. Just be quiet.

01:20:56

Well, I'm not going to be quiet. When there is a wolf amongst the sheep, you don't just sit back and go, well, he's been there long enough.

01:21:05

I guess it's okay. He's got his card now.

01:21:10

He's been amongst the sheep for three years. He doesn't eat too many. Should be okay now.

01:21:20

Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I guess we didn't get anybody who wanted to call in and defend.

01:21:26

They never will because all I've got to do is sit here and start clicking buttons and let

01:21:31

Ergin talk for himself. Just start playing the one where Ergin's talking about, telling the story of Abraham and Isaac.

01:21:43

Near the Dome of the Rock and how he does it in Arabic. And they're all getting upset because he's speaking Arabic and contradicting.

01:21:49

Well, he actually can't speak Arabic. He can probably muddle along with a little

01:21:54

Swedish. That's about it. I don't think telling the story of Abraham and Isaac in Swedish would have really gotten the

01:22:00

Muslim guys at the Dome of the Rock upset. Yeah, that's why they'll never call.

01:22:09

They can't. They know it. What's it? I just got to talk to you. Petey Lumpkins, you guys. What's it like to live the life you live where you know that what you're promoting, you could never defend.

01:22:21

If I walked up to you, you would have to melt into a puddle. What's that like? The wonderful thing about being truthful in what you say is you never have to worry about that.

01:22:32

You never have to worry about that. What's that like? Amazing.

01:22:39

Amazing. Somebody just tweeted, Eric and Cantor and me.

01:22:45

You're finally repenting of your lies. I sure hope so. I'm not sure who that's addressed to. Not sure who that's addressed to.

01:22:53

There is a dangling Twitter ID there. Is it?

01:22:59

OK. I couldn't click on the conversation part while doing a program all at the same time.

01:23:05

So let's click on the conversation part. Ah. Oh, yes. Wow. Do we have some huge, massive and great news to announce in a little while?

01:23:15

He's responding. Oh, you are going to be so blocked. You're going to be so blocked.

01:23:22

Like I said, I wonder, I'm wondering if there's a, if there's a maximum number of people you can block on Twitter. I'm really not sure.

01:23:30

I'm really not sure. Anyhow. OK, now

01:23:36

Jason just put one up 18 minutes ago. What to do when all hell breaks loose. I seem to remember a sermon series on that.

01:23:42

Stay strong, never back down. OK, well, whatever. Well, we tried to open the phone lines and they are working, right?

01:23:51

The phone lines are open. But we never, we never. Yep, yep, there it is.

01:23:57

OK. No one, no one really wants to do that. Not like we really expected that he would ever do that.

01:24:02

But he has an open invitation. Open invitation to Dr. Ergen Kanner. If you would like to demonstrate what you said in Twitter is true, that you have been exonerated.

01:24:14

If you would like to read the statements of exoneration and that you are innocent and that you categorically deny all charges, you have an open invitation to come on the dividing line and, and we will talk about, we will play your statements and then you can explain them.

01:24:31

We will, we will play, we'll play your speaking Arabic and we will ask you to interpret.

01:24:36

I'm sure that, I'm sure that Issam would be happy to come in and be our, our Arabic expert.

01:24:44

And that would be great. And then we'll, we'll play your statements about your father and his, his multiple wives.

01:24:52

And we'll play, we will then, we'll send you screenshots of your own websites about coming here in 1979, 1978 and 1979.

01:25:02

And about, and you can finally identify who it was you debated in Nebraska. That would be very, very good.

01:25:08

I've got friends in Nebraska. They'll be able to check it out. They'll be able to go to whatever churches it was. They'd be able to call them immediately and verify while we're on the air.

01:25:14

I'll bet you anything. My friends up in Omaha would be willing to do that. I just spoke up at a church up there and I spoke on these subjects because, well, in fact,

01:25:24

I did make it even easier. I did a men's breakfast. They said they, they had a record crowd there for a men's breakfast at Omaha Bible Church.

01:25:34

And put chairs out and stuff like that. And I spoke on Islam. So I'm sure there are people from all sorts of other churches there who would be happy to cooperate and verify who, what

01:25:45

Muslim you debated in Nebraska. Because I think you said Omaha, but was it

01:25:50

Omaha? I thought it was Omaha. It was Nebraska. It was Nebraska. And they'd be able to, so we will do the legwork to be able to help you because if you're innocent and you have been exonerated and you categorically deny all charges, well, then we need to get the truth out there.

01:26:13

So, Ergen, come on the program. Probably wouldn't be that hard to get Shabir Ali on the phone. Oh no, of course not.

01:26:19

Not at all. But of course, Ergen has already said that he misstated.

01:26:24

Oh, yeah. Remember the apology thing? Well, you could still introduce him for the first time. Yeah, that's true. But remember, he, he misstated.

01:26:31

So, whoever it was he did debate, I imagine we could get in contact with that Muslim too.

01:26:37

And we'd be happy to do all of these things. But I don't think that's going to happen.

01:26:44

But the invitation's out there, Ergen. We can help you to re -establish your credibility.

01:26:50

All you got to do is just answer all these questions. And you got to explain what

01:26:56

Hadith 2425 is and why the footnotes in your book are a waste of space because you can't look up the actual reference.

01:27:05

Just simple things like that. Because as you said, these questions don't matter. So it shouldn't be a big thing for you to answer them and explain how multiple caliphs could have been around your father's bed because a caliph, there's only one at a time and there aren't any caliphs that haven't been since the fall of the

01:27:23

Ottoman Empire. But you can explain all these things. It'd be great. We can even talk about Daisy Duke and the

01:27:30

Dukes of Hazzard and learning English and stuff like that too. And why you had to learn

01:27:36

English from the Dukes of Hazzard when you actually were living in the United States outside of Columbus.

01:27:44

And what it means to have always lived in a majority Muslim nation. There's so many things that we can talk about,

01:27:51

Ergen. Just let us know when you want to be on and we'll help you with your I Am Completely Innocent campaign.

01:27:58

Just got to answer the question. We'll do it for you. Thanks for listening to Inviting Line today. I'm actually here

01:28:05

Thursday. Yes, it's next week. I'll be heading up to Montana for the debate with Justin Lee.

01:28:12

So we'll be here Thursday. See you then. We need a new reformation day.

01:29:17

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01:29:26

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01:29:31

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