Discussion on RCC & EO's Validity

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00:06

All right, so I started 10 minutes early and we'll see how this discussion, if it's going to go at all.

00:16

I just now released the link information for discussion here.

00:26

Hopefully what we're going to have here tonight is a discussion on the validity of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

00:34

A couple of nights ago, I have a regular, it's called

00:42

Apologetics Live, and I'm the resident apologist in this discussion group.

00:49

We had on a guy who was, well, this is exceedingly illogical, and I was working with him for a while.

00:58

Then others begin to jump in. The way I work when I do apologetics is just ask questions and work with an individual.

01:09

If people come in sideways and start asking questions, it derails the approach, derails the direction of trying to go, or want to go, or following the lead of the other person.

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It often causes problems, and that, to me, is very frustrating. After this guy, we went on, a gentleman came in from the

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Eastern Orthodox Denomination group, church, whatever you want to call it, he was, I thought he was aggressive and a little rude.

01:36

No big deal. I'm used to that from people in the false religion of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.

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I'm trying to have a discussion with the guy. Some of the Christian guys were jumping in, making comments, and I kept saying, no,

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I can handle it. Let me go. I can handle this guy. I could see the problems he was saying.

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I understand this stuff. It became very frustrating for me to continue to deal with him and his rudeness.

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I'm kind of used to that. But also, with the people who were just jumping in, and it kept derailing the conversation.

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So I had a problem with it, and I got very, very frustrated after a while, considering that the previous discussion with this guy was really illogical.

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I was sitting, playing on my phone for like a half hour, 40 minutes, just waiting for the other guys to finish so we can have a conversation.

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So I was already a little bit irked, just a little. So when this continued on,

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I reached my limit, and I couldn't continue. I just left, because I'm not going to deal with it. I can't have a conversation with this

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EO guy, Eastern Orthodox guy. If what's going to happen is people are going to keep constantly jumping in,

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I can't have a conversation. So I just got fed up with the guys, and I left. But wouldn't you know it, what happened is that these people, they started claiming victory.

03:05

Matt Schlick couldn't handle the truth. Matt Schlick couldn't handle, you know, this guy's tough questions.

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That's not the truth. I just got frustrated not being able to have a one -on -one discussion with this guy, which I was looking forward to.

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And so I had to go and make numerous corrections into a Facebook page. I'm stalling, folks, until we get to roughly the beginning of the hour, see who shows up, and just explaining what happened.

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So, you know, I said, no, that's not what happened. I wasn't afraid. It's not that I couldn't handle the questions.

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I just got frustrated with the interruptions. And basically, I was kind of called a liar and things like that, and, oh, you know the truth.

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You couldn't handle, you know. I get so tired of this kind of schoolyard mentality that, you know, it's just ridiculous.

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So I said, look, how about Saturday night now, we'll have a discussion.

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People who want to can come on in, and we can discuss these issues. Now, hopefully, it'll be polite.

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Of course, one of the things that they complain about, and they do this unfairly, it's not warranted.

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Hi, Brenda. Merry Christmas. They'll say that, oh,

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Matt has control. He just wants control. No, it's just not. I just don't like unbelievers in control.

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I don't like Catholics in control. I don't trust them. Or it's unorthodox. Sorry, I don't. And I've been on,

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I've had numerous conversations with people where I've been in control on the radio, where I've been in control in rooms like this, and they have insulted me, and I just want, don't insult me.

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Come on. And in 10, 15 minutes of insults, okay, look, I'm going to warn you that if you don't keep this up, I'm going to boot you out. So 15 minutes of more of this insult, okay, you're gone, right?

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And then they go claim victory. See, he couldn't handle it. He kicked us out because he couldn't handle it. All he wanted was control.

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Misrepresentation. I really doubt if people like that are regenerate because they apparently have no problem with lies.

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And, you know, I try and be fair, and people tell me I'm very, very patient with people, and I try and be patient with people.

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And just because I can out them, you know, kick them out, doesn't mean that I'm going to. It's just, let's talk.

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Peanuts. It shouldn't be true when I'm talking. And so here we are.

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Now, on the link, on CARM, and I should probably put those links on Facebook too.

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I'll do that while we're talking. Let's see, how about this? Live discussion, we'll see, with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, and the topic is supposed to be on whether or not their churches are true.

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That's not hard. What I'm going to do now is just paste, participate, we have nobody participating right now.

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Participate there, and watch, and I'll put the watch video up right now, and hopefully some people will show up.

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You know, what's interesting is I've offered this kind of thing numerous times over the past year, even though my wife had open heart surgery, and yeah,

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I'm doing a hangout, Cody. Just go to CARM .org, you can see the links and stuff like that, or Facebook page for CARM.

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I just released it, and you can get into the participation area. And so, you know,

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I've done this many times with anti -Calvinists. I've done it with Catholics, and I've offered it to atheists.

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They rarely show up, keep saying, let's talk, and they give the same excuses, oh, you just want to be in control, you're not going to let me speak.

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Come on in, you know, come on, they just have excuses for not showing up. Now, I understand sometimes people just can't show up, you know,

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Saturday night, holidays are coming up, I get that, you know, and if they say that's the case, then that's the case.

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I'm not going to call them a liar, you know, even though I will say that some people are lying when they purposely misrepresent the facts, whatever,

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I've clarified it several times, and so that's an issue. So we have 13 viewers on the

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YouTube right now, at least, no, 12 viewers, 13, and don't have anything on Facebook going, but I am hoping people will come in, and if they don't, if they don't, should non -Catholics,

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EOs, stay mute for this live chat? No, they can come in and talk, just talk, we don't want to have everybody talking at once, you know, and where we can't have a conversation,

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I'll just tackle one person at a time for a while, that's all, and we can do that, just have a civilized conversation, that's what

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I'm waiting for, that's what I'm hoping for. All right, CPAPTrucker, God bless your ministry, thank you,

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Kevin Bonner, God bless, Steve Parks, I've seen your site on Catholicism, very informative, I'm not very educated on the

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Eastern Orthodox Church, so yeah, the Eastern Orthodox Church is hard to nail down, because they don't have any really official writings, it's hard,

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I thought your show yesterday was the best one I've seen, yesterday on the, what, on the radio, because I wasn't live yesterday, so I don't know,

08:32

I was out fishing, I caught nothing, after four hours,

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I got nothing, and my buddy caught the only fish, we tanked the entire reservoir, it was fun, just watch you debate

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Aaron Raw years ago, it was awesome, oh, I want to debate Aaron Raw again, we tried to set it up, but he won't have anything to do with me,

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I'd love, I would love to debate Aaron Raw, I know, I know his

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Achilles, Achilles heel, I'm owner, operator, truck driver, I have a small YouTube channel, okay,

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CPAP, CPAP, you know, that's a device you put over your mouth, and it helps you sleep, I have one, yeah,

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I'm 62, fish protesting the absence of the live show, had a lot of fun out there, it was fun, brought our rifles and guns, and we're out in the middle of boondocks nowhere, and we're target practicing, a lot of fun, love it, all right, so we have 21 viewers, and nobody has come into the participation area, so I'm gonna stall for 15 minutes,

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I'll talk, you guys can put some questions in the YouTube channel, I can talk, and if nothing happens, what

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I'm gonna do is talk about the evils of the Roman Catholic Church, so this is saw me, I didn't really have dinner tonight, and I'm trying to, incidentally, lay off of sugars and carbs,

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I have been juicing, I'm telling you, juicing is awesome, juicer downstairs, apples, carrots, cucumber, mix it all up, make a big thing, drink it all day, and do it every morning, almost every morning, laying off the sugars, laying off, oh, what a difference,

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I'm telling you, sugar's not good for you, okay, I'm taking the wrong day,

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I mean, what was the topic, what I talk about, Steve, on that, my thumbnail pick is me with my

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CPAP mask on, okay, stay away from carbs, yeah, well, when you're 62, and your job is sitting around like this, talking to people, oh, there's, hey, see that, that choreography thing on the participation, you can't see it, there's, there's the cross right behind me, cool, we'll hope there's some

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Catholics, Jimmy, hey, man, how you doing, buddy, Cody says hi, yeah, you see it behind me, see the cross, yeah, thanks for doing that, it was all right, well, you inspired it, so, well, thanks, you did it, though, all right, so, what you got, keto, yeah, keto, yeah, but I prefer,

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I prefer Krav Maga over keto, okay, so, here

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I am stalling, okay, you guys, fire some questions at me, and we'll see if we can talk, and if they don't, like I said, 15 minutes after, they don't, nobody shows up,

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I'm gonna talk about Catholicism, and how bad it is, bad, it's false, that I'm gonna show you,

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I'm gonna do some stuff on their tradition, and their authority, and how they gave us the Bible, and stuff like that, hey,

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Matt, can you talk about Anselm Satisfaction Theory of Atonement, I can, I gotta refresh my memory on it, let's see,

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Anselm, it's wrong, I know that, Satisfaction Theory, how long have the

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Catholics had an elemental, element of mysticism, I don't know, but that is a very good question, it's a great question, all right, how long, okay, pick up your daughter,

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I'm loving the vids, praise God, all right, so, my notes,

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Anselm said the absolute necessity of atonement by grounding it in the very nature of God, according to him, sin consists in the creatures withholding from God the honor which is his due, that's not just what sin is, that's not what the

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Bible says is sin, but anyway, by the sin of man, God was robbed of his honor, and it was necessary that he should be vindicated, this could be done either by two ways, punishment or satisfaction, okay, theory that sin robbed

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God of his honor, it did, but that's not all it did, therefore, it is necessary, God's honor restored by punishing the sinners through an atonement,

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God chose atonement by the death of Christ, which brought honor to God and reward, which is passed on to sinners, that's an insufficient, yeah, yeah, and the

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Bible doesn't say he atoned based on his holiness, but he atoned based on his love, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and so that was that, oh, and by the way, if anti -Calvinists come in, and you know, they want to have a discussion with me,

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I'm open, I'm open to that, so anyway, so my notes say on the

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Anselm theory, is not consistent in its representation of the necessity of the atonement, it ostensibly does not ground its necessity in the justice of God, which cannot brook sin, but in the honor of God, which calls for amends or reparation, these are quotes, this theory really has no place in the idea that Christ by suffering endured the penalty of sin, and this suffering was strictly vicarious, there you go, see there's problems, how do

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I address, Chris, are you a Catholic or whatever, Chris Johnson, I'm gonna move my fan, I'm getting off camera, but I'm moving my fan so that I can feel it, that's all,

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I'm right here, here we go, just a click on the fan direction, okay, all right, all right, join

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Raul's new church, oh brother, what a good, come on,

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I'm hoping we're gonna do this up in Catholicism here, that's what it's about, but Jesus being God, and you had the caller who was debating you, oh yeah, then you started talking about how we're no longer under the law,

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I think that was Thursday, yeah, yeah, or Thursday, yeah, Wednesday or Thursday, that was good, huh, you like that, does

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Matt have pink letters on his pants, yes, they are actually red, not pink, they're actually red, and my daughter gave me some sweats,

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I worked out at the gym today, and they have Walking Dead, we used to watch that years ago, and we don't watch it anymore, so these are a few years old,

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GMD apologetics, I'd rather we not discuss open theism right now, because we're waiting for hopefully

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Roman Catholics and or Eastern Orthodox to come in, and talk, that's what is, you know,

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I absolutely believe most Catholics are not saved, absolutely, I believe Catholicism is really very, very dangerous, very, very bad, yeah, where's

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Clint Dempsey, exactly, why don't you guys go over there, and say hey, right now, it's on, you can post the links,

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I put it on Facebook, on Karm .org Facebook page, the links are there, you copy them, and go over there, and say come on guys, let's have a discussion, and maybe

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Brother Diamond will show up, you know, that those guys are like bullies,

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I don't like bullies, they make demands, and push, and stuff, I have a Greek Orthodox Church, who holds a big festival, what exactly do they believe in that,

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I'm not exactly sure what to say about what exactly they believe, now the good, is they believe in the

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Trinity, that's good, they believe in the deity of Christ, his physical resurrection, and that their church is the only true church, their church has the authority, salvation is by grace and works, and that's why they're false, they have some odd teachings too, but the problem is that there's subgroups within Eastern Orthodoxy, there it goes,

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I was wondering if my website was down, let me go check the live analytics, because it took a while,

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I guess I hit the button wrong, and I have to get a cough drop here, because I'm trying to get a dry throat, yeah, it's up, fine, okay, all right, yeah, see, they don't show up, you know, this is pretty typical,

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I have these opportunities, here you go, they challenge me left and right, and then

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I provide an opportunity, and then they don't show up, this is typical, seriously, they believe salvation probably comes through chrismation, yeah,

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I know, sheesh, here, let me show you this, this is, these are quotes from Orthodox church stuff,

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I mean, I gotta, I gotta give me a, sorry, I gotta give me a cough drop, hold on, yeah, here we got one here,

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I don't know, what's all of a sudden getting a dry throat, so I'm gonna put a cough drop in, and hopefully, you won't hear me clanking on it, my teeth,

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Rick Akins, why don't you come on into the, the, the real chat, okay, the link's on, the link is on the

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CARM homepage, the right hand side, please respond to what,

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I'm a Catholic, and I believe Christ as my Savior and Lord, why they're not saved, because you add works to salvation, if you're

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Roman Catholic, because if you're Roman Catholic, you deny salvation, by Christ alone, in faith alone, through grace alone, you add works,

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Romans, Catholic Catechism, 2068, you're saved by faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments, that's a heresy, that's what the cults teach, what false religions teach, so you can say you love

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Jesus, but it doesn't mean that you truly love who he is, and what he has done on the cross, to be justified by faith, you add works to salvation, your works are sinful, therefore, you're lost, simple, and you can, you'll die being a

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Catholic, and you'll go to hell being a Catholic, I can lay out why this is an issue, and I will never convert to Catholicism, you want to know why, because I believe the

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Bible, I don't believe the Catholic church's interpretation of the Bible, because they read a truckload of heresy into various verses, like Luke 1 28,

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Mary's full of grace, which it doesn't say that in the Greek, stuff like that, all right, now, let's get back to the

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Catholic, I mean, the Eastern Orthodox, people ask me about that, trying to size up my windows here, so you can't be a

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Christian, if sacraments are merely rituals, that's what the Eastern Orthodox says, saints have a ranking, apparently, salvation, you have to work for salvation, here's a quote, but while we cannot merit salvation, we must certainly work for it, since faith that works is dead,

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James 2 17, did you hear that, did you hear that ripping sound folks, when

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I quoted, when I read what they quoted, did you hear the ripping sound of a verse being taken out of context, yeah, we must certainly work for it,

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James 2 17, wow, they couldn't argue out of a wet paper heresy, check this out in Eastern Orthodox, for Orthodoxy, our salvation and redemption means our deification, to deify means to become divine, become

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God, Eastern Orthodoxy says outside the church, there is no salvation, salvation is not a completed state, salvation means you're on your way, salvation is not by good works, we're not saved because of good works, but we are saved for good works, now that's good

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Calvinism, but what they do is, they are, they're double talkers, salvation is more than Christ paying a penalty, it is, no salvation beyond the grave, that's good, sin is disobedience to God, that's good, forgiveness of sin through baptism, through baptism we receive full forgiveness of sins, whether original or actual, so I guess that means if you're not baptized, you don't have full forgiveness of sins, just mostly forgiven, just mostly forgiven,

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I guess, right, why is it when I ask Catholics to give me the gospel and how

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I want to say, they always refer to the, who founded their church, because Bill, they don't know the gospel, Matt, do we need to obey the command to love

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God with all our hearts, minds and souls, yes, we ought to, because Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6 5 in Matthew 22 27, we should do that, it's not an option, we should do it, but it's not what saves us and it's not what contributes to our salvation, this is the problem with you, you don't understand, justification and sanctification are different, justification is the imputed righteousness of Christ which we receive by faith,

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Philippians 3 9, Romans 3 28, Romans 4 5, we receive it by faith, sanctification is going to be more like Christ and we are obligated to keep certain aspects of the law, but doing that does not contribute to our salvation, this is where the

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Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, all error, they have a mixture between justification and sanctification, they do not understand what the true gospel is,

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I just answered you, Rich, Rick, yes,

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Steve, the Eastern Orthodox Church is also based on works, if obedience to the first commandment is required, then if you do not, what happens to your souls, well, what do you mean what happens to your souls, you mean if you don't love

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God with all your heart, soul and mind, then something happens to your soul, what do you mean, if I don't love

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God perfectly, because Deuteronomy 27 26 says I'm supposed to do it perfectly and Paul references that in Galatians 3 10, the level is perfection and God says in 1

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Peter 1 16, he says be holy for I'm holy, the standard is perfection, so let me ask you, are you saying you have to keep the first commandment perfectly, to love

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God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, is that what you're saying and if you do say that, then are you doing it, why don't you come into the room, let's have a discussion,

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I said look, you need to come into the room, I said it's required, required for what, it's not required in order to become a

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Christian or maintain your Christian, your Christianity, it is required in the issue of what

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God wants us to do in order to be a true follower of Christ, we are obligated and required to love

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God and our neighbor, but doing these things does not keep us saved or get us saved, what do you mean nothing happens, see

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Rick, you need to come into the room and talk with me, I ask you these questions, this is why

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I don't like doing text things, because what you do is you ignore what I'm saying and when you have a comment,

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I can stop you and go, wait a minute, what about this, what do you mean by that, and you have to answer it in live conversations, but in text, you can just type in what you feel like, what happens to the soul, so you need to tell me, what do you mean by, seriously, what do you mean by what happens to the soul, is there an ontological essence, is there a epistemological problem, is there a satirological issue, what are you saying, what do you mean by happens to our souls, what does that mean, it gets smaller, it gets bigger, what do you mean by something happens to our souls, what do you mean by that, what do you see, if I was typing this out,

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I would say before I go any further, you have to define what by what you mean and give me some examples of what happens to our souls, what does that mean, you use these phrases, but I don't know if they know what it means, what does it mean, why doesn't folks tell him to come into the room, the link is on CARM, all you gotta do is go to CARM .org,

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right hand side, you'll see participate, click, you'll come right in here, you can get on the mic, we can have a conversation, it's not a phone call to get in here, it's via YouTube, but if he wants to call,

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I can get a, I guess I can get a phone and I can get my office phone and we can put a speakerphone right here, so he can, you know,

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Catholics don't teach that you have to obey the commands to become a

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Christian, please show us where it is written in the catechism, so let me ask you,

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Ben Rick, Rich at Akins, can you become a Christian, a Roman Catholic without obeying the commands, see, if you can become, if you can't become a

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Christian or Catholic by not obeying, then the corollary is necessary in that you must obey in order to become one, because to become a

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Christian means you're saved, means you're a follower of Christ, and paragraph 2068 says you obtain salvation by faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments, and I can give some other stuff about the necessity of keeping the commandments in a natural law, that this is why you need to be in here, what's wrong, what'd you, geez guys, you know what, fine,

28:02

I'll tell you what, type in your questions, just stick in the chat and let's do it, okay, yep, yep, yep, yep, so much heresy, so little time, yeah, let's see, now, let's see, how about this, okay, this is what it says in paragraph 2068,

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CCC 2068, okay, there it is, so you become a

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Christian by faith, mission of teaching all peoples, and preaching the gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments, so you must observe the commandments in order to become saved, and you, if you're a

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Christian, that means you're saved, it's simple, right, you have to become

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Christian by being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then we must obey the Lord and repent when we fail, so let me ask you,

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Richard, do you have to keep the commandments in order to keep yourself right with God, and stay saved, it's more of the stuff in the

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Catholic Church, ah, come on, no, come on, there we go, dang, come on, get in there, oh,

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I can do more, sorry, hold on, there we go, okay, there, there, now, there we go, you don't, it's easier to talk than it is to type stuff out, but if that's what they want to do, he says, we become

30:01

Christian by being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then we must, we must obey the Lord and repent when we fall, okay, my question then, as a follow -up on that, no, no, no,

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I'm asking you a question now, must you keep the commandments in order to stay saved,

30:20

Richard Atkins, must a Roman Catholic keep the commandments in order to be saved, or stay saved, there's my question, okay,

30:57

I'm waiting, if we do not keep the commandments to stay saved, then you must believe the commandments are optional, but you're already said they're required, okay,

31:16

Rich, now you're taking stuff out of context, Atkins, I said they're not required for salvation, or to stay saved, so when you say, but I said it required, you don't qualify what

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I meant by that, so therefore, by you not qualifying that, and clarifying it, you're misrepresenting me, so I'm telling you, you don't keep the commandments to become a

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Christian, you do not keep the commandments to stay a Christian, so I'm asking you, must a

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Roman Catholic keep the commandments in order to stay saved, to stay in the grace of God, by keeping the commandments, so he doesn't go to hell, yes, sanctification, well, it's synergistic, one way, let me focus on this guy, we don't believe they're required for salvation, so they're optional, got it, okay, everybody noticing what's going on here with Atkins, notice that I didn't say they're optional, that he's drawing a false conclusion, notice that earlier

32:19

I said there's a difference between justification and sanctification, and that in sanctification, we're supposed to love

32:25

God and love our neighbor, but sanctification is not our justification, I clarified that, and Atkins is apparently purposely misrepresenting me,

32:33

I did not say that they're not required, or that they're optional for salvation, because they are not required for salvation at all,

32:43

I keep clarifying this, Atkins is not representing me properly, there's a problem there, maybe this is why he does not want to be in a live discussion with me on voice, because he doesn't wanna be caught misrepresenting me repeatedly, okay, so all, you must keep the commandments to remain saved, all right, so now you have to keep the commandments to be saved, finally, all right, so Atkins, are you keeping the commandments, are you keeping the commandments, all of them, right, all the commandments, are you keeping all of the commandments, that's my question, are you keeping all of the commandments, because that's what it is, right, because I wanna know,

33:50

Galatians 3 10, for as many as are the works of the law, that's keeping the commandments, are under a curse, for it is written, curse is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them, now,

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Jesus says, in Matthew 22 37, that you must love God, in verse 39, he says, love your neighbor, in verse 40, he says, that is the summation of the law, loving

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God and loving your neighbor, so these are the representations of the entire law, now, Paul the apostle says, in Galatians 3 10, curse is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them, so, oh,

34:27

I'm not misrepresenting you, Matt, I mean, Rick Atkins, if I am, I apologize, I do not want to misrepresent you, but I'm reading,

34:35

I'm looking, this is why you need to be in here, and talking, but anyway, you're, you say, I'm misrepresenting, by not reading the entire post,

34:42

I'm reading everything you're saying, when we fail to keep the commandments, we need to repent, and we'll be forgiven again, so then, you're, are you saying then, when you fail to keep the commandments, that you're, you've lost your salvation, then you repent, you get it back, then you lose it, when you fail again, you get it back, is that what you're saying, are you saying, that if you don't keep the commandments, you lose your salvation, and then you get it back, by repenting, question mark, using my speech program to try, and come on, get in there,

35:19

I'm just, I want to know his position, this is ridiculous, if you have to keep the commandments, in order to be saved, if you stop keeping them, then you're not saved, that, that would make sense, right, there's on the

35:49

CARM Facebook page, and on the CARM page, on the right hand side, link to join, or to participate, click it, you'll come in here, okay, so am

36:06

I understanding you, you're saying, then, when you don't keep the commandments, you lose your salvation, and then, when you keep the commandments, repent, then you get it back again, is that right, so are you saying, that if you break the commandments, you lose your salvation, and when you repent, you get it back, question mark, folks, we know that's the case, because they have mortal sin, if you commit mortal sin, you lose your salvation, you have to keep the commandments, and then what you do in Catholicism, if you've committed any sin, let me explain how

36:48

Catholic salvation works, folks, in fact, what I'm going to do, I'm going to read what is necessary for salvation in Catholicism, all right,

37:00

I'm going to read from their sources, what they say, salvation summary of Catholicism, this is on CARM, and this is an article that took me two weeks of research to put together, okay, two weeks,

37:18

I'm going to respond to what he says here, I'm saying, that the moral commandments are required for those who claim Jesus as Lord, but none of us are sinless, we must repent, then my question, then, is, are you obligated to keep all of the moral commandments in order to stay a

37:32

Christian, are you obligated to keep all of the moral commandments in order to stay a

37:42

Christian, semicolon, that is comma, to stay saved, to stay in a state of sins being forgiven, okay, here we go, now, how many of you would like to hear what's necessary for salvation in Roman Catholicism, if you're in the chat room, you can let me know how many want to hear it, okay,

38:13

I just, I'm curious, no, if anybody wants, you know, let me know, I'd be glad to read it, okay, where'd the chat go, come on, okay, come on, chat, it disappeared, come on,

38:53

I don't see any, there it goes, came back, I don't know what happened there, all right, let me scroll down, there,

39:03

I put that in, now, let's see what it said, wow, so he could be un -crucified with the Christ and re -crucified with him a lot, yeah, that's right, one way,

39:09

Matt, please tell me which moral commandments are now optional for a Christian, optional in what sense, Richard Akins, you must be clear, optional in what sense, and notice, did he answer my question when

39:22

I asked him to define what he meant by what happens to the soul, did he answer, notice, folks, he did not answer that, okay, but he just ignored it and went on to something else, this

39:48

Akin guy, come on, you keep saying things, I can see why you don't want to be in a real live discussion with me, in what sense, they're optional in what sense, okay,

40:11

I'm keeping a list, keeping the moral law is optional in what sense, these are the questions

40:19

I'm going to, I'm recording the questions you're failing to answer, so when

40:24

I write an article on this later with your name and I say that you failed to answer these significant questions, people can know,

40:33

I'll put the link up to this video and they can listen for themselves, that you failed to answer significant questions, you said things,

40:41

I asked for clarifications, you wouldn't clarify, questions

41:07

Akins failed to answer, avoided them,

41:19

Akins, first John, in John 15, Jesus says that those who do not practice are cut off, so when do not obey the

41:24

Lord, we're showing just as James says, our faith is dead, you don't understand what James is talking about, and who is he talking to in John 15, does it, when it says cut off, does it mean you lose your salvation, that's why

41:44

I want him on live, yeah, I think he's hiding behind text, it says bearing fruit, if you don't bear fruit, then you're cut from the vine, now one of the questions

42:07

I ask is, where does it say you lose your salvation in that, it's a hyperbole, not hyperbole, it's a metaphor, what does it mean, now

42:18

I'm asking him questions and notice what he's doing, he's going elsewhere,

42:29

I don't know what it means to be cut off, you tell me what it means to be cut off, because when he says they'll be cut off, it doesn't say he loses his salvation, hold on Bill, let's focus on one thing at a time guys, you're not helping, this is what the interruptions were before, that's why

42:47

I left the other room, let's focus, furthermore, we don't know if that's what it means, and second, what it could mean also is that those who are truly of him will stay in him and will bear proper fruit, but it doesn't say that they keep their salvation by what they do, because I'm going to ask you some questions, you tell me what cut off means, come on,

43:10

I'm asking you, what does it mean, this is ridiculous, the way he's doing this, so look, look,

43:42

I asked him, okay, regarding John 14, he brought up vines being cut off,

43:56

I asked him what that meant and he jumped to three soils without answering the question, okay, guys, look, stop name -calling, okay, stop saying all this stuff, don't attack people personally, okay, that's what the

44:32

Catholics do, it's what the Eastern Orthodox do, don't resort to their level, all right, see,

44:45

I can't, look at this thing, I can't get Rick to answer any real questions, a few, but not really anything serious, okay,

44:57

Rick, you're all over the place, can you focus, Jerosha, don't push me, please,

45:04

I'm not in the mood for it, I'll kick you out if you continue, stop, okay, Rick Atkins, why don't you focus on one thing instead of jumping all over the place,

45:20

I would agree,

45:26

Steve, if he wants to go to Galatians 5, wait a second, someone's talking to me, and you,

45:35

Cody, yes, well, let me work with him, okay, if you want to type something on this topic, you can type in in the chat room here on this,

45:46

I want to focus on him, that's why, okay, okay, type it in there and I'll see it, all right, okay, see, look, folks, this is the kind of thing that is frustrating,

45:59

I keep wanting to have a conversation with him, he won't answer three questions he's not answered that he's avoided, this is when it starts getting frustrated with Atkins, I'm asking him to please answer this question or stay on one topic, he's jumping all over the place, now, what happens generally when people do this, after a while, a half hour of me warning them,

46:19

I said, okay, we're done, we're moving along, then what they do is they go claim victory, but I'm gonna write an article on our encounters here,

46:31

I'm gonna publish it on CARM, what does Paul say Ephesians 5, okay, well, wait a minute, look,

46:38

I've asked you, what happens, what do you mean by what happens to the soul, okay, you didn't answer,

46:46

I asked you to clarify what you meant by keeping the moral law is optional, well,

47:01

I asked in one sense, I asked in what sense and you ignored it and changed the topic, then you went to John 14, where you brought up the vines being cut off,

47:15

I asked what does that meant by cut off the vine, being cut off and then he went to the three soils, okay, now, he is on Galatians 5, so notice what's happening, folks, okay, notice what's happening,

47:37

I'm trying to get a conversation, trying to get him to focus on something, I'm asking him questions for clarification, he won't clarify and he jumps around, you notice that,

47:50

I've repeatedly asked for clarification on things that he's brought up, he's ignored clarifying them and he jumps around, so this is a problem, what does

48:06

Paul, okay, now, let me ask you, Rick Akins, do you want to focus just on Ephesians 5 and if so, what exact verses in Ephesians 5,

48:20

I'm not answering any of yours, are you kidding me, everybody, have

48:27

I answered him repeatedly, this is ridiculous, really, holy,

48:48

I've been answering you and asking you to clarify and you jump all over the place, so now, what am

48:54

I supposed to do, you can't focus, you can't clarify, now, you want to go to Ephesians 5, so I'm asking you, is this where you want to focus

49:03

Ephesians 5 and if so, just say, yes,

49:08

I want to focus on Ephesians 5, then give me the exact verses you want me to look at and I'll look at them,

49:17

I asked you, what do you mean by optional and in what sense, you see, here you go again, because I asked you to clarify what you meant by keeping the moral law is optional,

49:27

I asked in what sense and you ignored and changed the topic, I've asked you what this is, here's my notes from this, this is my notes, right, this is it right here, okay, that's what my notes, okay, and then you say, what happens when we don't do what is required,

49:46

I asked you because you said, you're the one who said that something happens to the soul and I asked, here's my notes again, right here, copying,

49:55

I asked, you did not clarify,

50:02

I can't answer your question if you don't clarify what you mean by what you're asking, what happens, right, and you brought up what happens to the soul, when

50:12

I asked you what that meant, you didn't, you didn't say anything, you changed the topic, now, you say, what happens, well, what do you mean by what happens, does a soul get bigger, fatter, smaller, what, what do you mean by it,

50:28

I'm trying to get you to answer, I clarified the answer to your first question, which is my first question,

50:35

I ask a lot of questions, please clarify your answer to whether obeying the moral is required, required for what, what are you saying is required for, if we disobey, what's the car, we're still communing with God, what are you saying is required for, sanctification or justification, salvation or sanctification, what do you think that moral law, obeying the moral law is required of, let's focus on this, okay, you're all over the place, you went to this, you brought it back up, let me ask you, okay, let me ask you, here's another question, okay, question again,

51:13

I'm going to use my speech program, you are asking me whether or not obeying the moral law is required, period, so, comma,

51:22

I'm asking you to clarify, period, what do you mean by, open quote, required, question mark, close quote,

51:34

I'm asking you, period, required for what, question mark, are you asking about justification, question mark, or are you asking about sanctification, question mark, you guys,

51:54

I gotta put this in, okay, you guys know, this is what

52:00

I'm gonna be, this is it, this is, you know, this is, come on, scroll down, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, hold on, okay, you gotta do this, oh, man, okay, there we go, here we go, and come on, get it, oh, here we go, there, all right, so, here's my question, everybody can see it, obeying the moral law perfectly is a goal of sanctification, no one does this, so is obeying what is required, actually required for salvation, okay, you don't have to obey the moral law in order to become a

52:52

Christian or stay a Christian, we are supposed to obey the moral law the best we can, but whether we do or not does not have any bearing on our justification, period,

53:05

I answered the question, I was specific, justification is the legal act where God imputes to the believer, by faith, to the believer, the righteousness that's of God, Philippians 3, 9 says so, sanctification is the process that God brings us through to be more like Christ, whether we're successful in sanctification or not as successful in sanctification, it does not affect our justification, because our justification is completely dependent upon the work of Christ, he grants that we believe,

53:41

Philippians 1, 29, and when we believe, we're imputed with the righteousness of God himself, presumably Christ's righteousness, because he kept the law perfectly, 1

53:49

Peter 2, 22, and Philippians 3, 9 says that we have a righteousness that's not our own, it's by imputation, therefore, that's what the

53:58

Bible says in Romans 3, 28, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law,

54:07

Romans 4, 5 says, Paul says, to the one who does not work but believes, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,

54:15

Romans 5, 1 clearly says, having therefore been justified by faith, justification, justification, clear it is righteousness, it's a legal stand before God, based upon the work of Christ, who kept the law and never sinned, 1

54:29

Peter 2, 22, sanctification, once we're justified, God indwells us, you can go to John 14, 23 for that, and because that God has indwelled us, then what we do, he indwells us, and then we do works, but our works in our righteousness do not save us or contribute to our salvation,

54:45

Titus 3, 5 clearly says so, our sanctification is the process by which God brings us into more of a relationship with Christ and to be more like Christ, in this process, as isn't always necessary, unbelievers and believers are all obligated by the law to keep the law,

55:02

I mean, are obligated by God to keep the law, they should do it because that's what is right, because God is the standard, but people cannot keep the law, anyone who says that they want to keep the law in any way to maintain salvation is not saved, because what they're doing is adding a work to the finished work of Christ and saying that what he did in the cross is not sufficient in and of itself to justify us, so what they're doing is spitting on the cross and saying that they have to add their sin -stained works in order to maintain their salvation before the infinitely holy

55:37

God, blasphemy of blasphemies, and may that blasphemous teaching die in the pit of hell with Satan who originated it, now

55:45

I've asked Akins before, I've asked him before for clarification on things,

55:50

I'm keeping notes for the article that I'm going to write later, I'm going to ask him some questions again and let's see if he can clarify, now

55:58

I've noticed that he's put some text up, so I'm going to read his text, I don't even know what it is yet, let's see, let's see if he can answer,

56:06

I've explained my position specifically, I've defined justification, I've explained what sanctification is and their relationship, and I've clearly stated my position, this is what he says, no, we are justified, forgiven of our sins at baptism and when we repent, so then you're not justified by faith, are you?

56:23

Because if you're justified by faith, excuse me, justified, your sins are forgiven at baptism, what you believe before you get baptized, that means you're not justified when you believe, having therefore been justified by faith, faith is when you believe, so what you're saying is, no, we're not justified by faith, we're justified by faith and baptism or faith in a ceremony, and when we repent, and notice this folks, what is repentance?

56:48

Repentance is the keeping of the law, if you have lied, you obey the law, thou shalt not lie, you stop lying, you keep the law, so his repentance is keeping the law, so what he's saying is, we're justified of our sins at baptism and by keeping the law, because that's what repentance is, keeping the law to be conformed with God, Rick Akins, you're damned, you're lost, because you are sitting here seeking to be justified before the infinitely holy

57:15

God by a ceremony and your ability to keep the law, you're lost, he goes on and says, this is not the same as salvation, what?

57:26

Forgiveness of sins, is not the same as salvation, since we can still fall, so wait a minute, having your sins forgiven is not the same thing as being saved from the wrath of God, so wow, wow, that's really, that's interesting, let me put this in here, okay, this is what he said, this is good for the article, so oops, oh man, good, there we go, there we go, he said that, wow, that's really something, so justification, being forgiven of our sins is not the same thing as salvation, okay, well justification technically, folks, is the legal standing before God and salvation is being delivered from the judgment of God and they are concomitant, they go together, okay, but he says, you can lose your salvation, well, then

58:25

I got a question for him, I got a question, Jesus and Paul write multiple times to believers that they can fall, no, he wrote to churches with believers and unbelievers mixed in, telling them to watch out lest they fall in varying degrees, this is something you never look at, yeah,

58:42

I believe it, Joe, all right, let me get back down here, let me see, I'm scrolling down, let's see if he said anything, no,

58:49

I did not say being forgiven is not the same thing as being saved, wait a minute, this is what you just said, this is it, 209, 210, okay, this is what you said, hold on, you said, no, we are justified, forgiven of our sins at baptism and when we repent, this is not the same as salvation and you just said up there,

59:12

I did not say being forgiven is not the same thing as being saved, but maybe

59:22

I'm misunderstanding you, it's certainly possible, I'm not intending to and I'm not intending to misrepresent you, but when you said that you're justified, forgiven of our sins at baptism and when you repent, this is not the same thing as salvation, since we can still fall, then you said that's not what

59:41

I was saying, that when I was saying that, you're saying that's salvation and basically, I haven't debated it against several times, okay, okay, look, this whole thing is ridiculous, why won't he come in?

01:00:04

Now, I know that he won't come in for direct conversation, but actually folks, this is working out better because I'm copying what he says into another file for the article

01:00:15

I'm going to write later on, read what I wrote, we are forgiven, it does not mean saved, past tense, for we can still fall from grace, wait a minute, so if we're forgiven, we're not saved, it does not mean we're saved in the past tense, past tense, saved, so if we are forgiven, it does not mean we are saved, is that what you're saying, is that what you're saying,

01:00:45

I'm trying to understand you, okay, read what

01:00:58

I wrote, I'm trying to represent you accurately, it does not mean saved in the past tense, for we can still fall from grace,

01:01:09

I don't understand what he's getting at, it does not mean saved in the past tense,

01:01:15

I'm talking about being saved, present tense, now, are you saved, are you in a state of salvation, if your sins are forgiven, are you in a state of salvation, it's pretty obvious why he doesn't want to come on in and have a real discussion on voice,

01:01:40

Jesus gave our father, gave thee our father, he gave us thee our father, we're to ask daily for the forgiveness of our sins, if we die forgiven, we are saved, but if we still can deny

01:01:53

Christ or disobey the commands, we're required to obey, but we can still can, okay, guys, let me work with him, okay, but you guys are, look, you guys are not helping when you ask him questions, he and I are discussing, all right,

01:02:11

I'm trying to focus on him, and when you guys keep posting stuff, you cause a text to rise up quicker, it'll be a disadvantage for me, because I'm trying to write or copy what he says and write little notes and respond, all right, now, he says,

01:02:32

Jesus gave thee our father, where we're to ask daily for forgiveness of our sins, if we die forgiven, we're saved, okay, then

01:02:44

I got a question, what kind of things must you do or not do so that you're not forgiven, because he says, if you die forgiven, we're saved, okay, that means, if you die unforgiven, you're not saved,

01:03:00

I would agree, if you die unforgiven, you're not saved, but if you're a Catholic and you're saved and it's possible to die unforgiven, then in between those, what are the things that you can do or not do in order to die unsaved, so my question is, my question to Akins is, what are the things you can do or not do that can result in you losing your salvation, okay, there we go,

01:03:40

Boze, just hold on, okay, I'm praying for Matt, thank you, Jesus gave thee our father, she's so Catholic, I answered you, please answer me, if we're required to obey the commandments, we don't obey or repent, what happens, what happens in what sense, folks, have

01:03:57

I asked him to clarify what he means by what happens soteriologically, physically, emotionally, ecclesiastically, what are you talking about, what happens, clarify, if you don't have the ability to clarify, that means you don't understand your own question, if you don't understand your own question, don't keep asking the question you don't understand yourself, you can demonstrate to all of us that you understand your own question by clarifying what you mean by what happens,

01:04:28

I'm asking you, what happens in what sense, soteriologically, emotionally, mentally, positionally, physically, ecclesiastically, because our sin can affect all of these things, now, to the real

01:04:51

Christian, our sin does not unjustify us, it affects our sanctification, that is, excuse me, our fellowship with God, and it can have a deleterious effect on us physically and emotionally, but we cannot lose our salvation, and I can prove that easily,

01:05:08

I can prove it from scripture, but that would mean him actually asking questions, or answering questions, actually really answering the real questions, good

01:05:19

Lord, Matt, did you just use the Lord's name in vain? Yeah, he just used the

01:05:25

Lord's name in vain, yeah, you only use the Lord's name in adoration, in praise, in worship, in respectful comment to him, you only use it, you just broke one of the ten commandments, buddy, you use it as an exclamation in your frustration, how worldly of you, wow, you give lip service to the requirement to obey, but he can't tell us results where it don't obey,

01:05:50

I'm asking you in what regard are you talking about in results, and I've given you several options, don't give me this, you don't even know what you're talking about, you don't even know, and then you try and turn it around on me,

01:06:04

I'm asking you, first, stop using the Lord's name in vain, that's a sin, and you need to repent, because maybe you just lost your salvation for that, and second,

01:06:13

I'm not giving lip service to anything, I just clarified, I gave a little bit position, last about a minute or two, on how it all works together, if you were listening, you would know what

01:06:25

I said, and you wouldn't ask the same question that I've already answered several times, and then

01:06:31

I ask you, what do you mean by the result, or the effect, in what sense of our sin, is it positionally with God, is it by justification, sanctification, is it emotional thing, ecclesiastical thing,

01:06:42

I'm asking you, and you don't even answer the simple question, so I could, I'll know what direction you're going in, very simple, if we claim faith in Christ, and then we deny

01:06:53

Christ, or sin grievously, murder adultery, we still be, will we still be saved, there's a yes and a no to that, you can commit great sins and still be a that you're going to, let me put it this way, first Corinthians five, they, the man was committing adultery by having sex with his father's wife, and God, and Paul says, deliver him over to the destruction of the flesh, so his soul be saved, so he's saying right there, it's a great sin, it's a fornicating kind of an adultery thing, so that his soul be saved, he's physically destroyed, so he'll be saved, he's committing that, there's no mention of repentance in there at all, so the scriptures are teaching us, that there's various forms and punishments that come along with this, when

01:07:39

Christians abide in sin, God will kill them, I believe he'll just take them out, and this is so, first Corinthians five is ratified, clarified, and exemplified in the people's lives, now true

01:07:52

Christians have the Lord God indwelling in them, and true Christians want to follow who God is, they're not going to go around murdering and committing adultery willy -nilly, because first John three eight,

01:08:02

I think it's three six through eight, talks about those who abide in Christ, those who will do those things, do not abide in their sins, so what you're doing is basically asking a question, you're saying, can a regenerate person who loves the

01:08:12

Lord really save, which I don't think you know what regeneration is, because I don't believe you've experienced it, regeneration can go around doing evil things, and he still goes to heaven, because what you're actually saying is, we keep the law to be saved, and since we have to keep the law and continue to be saved, you can't break the law and be saved, now can you

01:08:30

Matt, and what you completely miss is the issue of God's indwelling us, the regenerative work in us, the change that occurs, we're made new creatures, as the

01:08:38

Bible says, second Corinthians 5 21, I believe it is, or 5 17, and so we are made new creatures in Christ, and so what often is happening with the cults, you ask the same question the cultists do, sorry but you do, well you mean we can we can trust in Christ and still go out and murder and and steal and rape, and I go you wouldn't do that if you're really a

01:08:56

Christian, that's what the Bible says, you don't understand what regeneration is, no they don't understand what regeneration is, you want to know why, because they're keeping the law to be saved, they've not died with Christ, they're still under the law, not under grace, and how do you know they're not on it, they're not under grace, because they teach you have to do things to keep yourself right with God, that's the law, that's what it is, now here's a question

01:09:27

I've answered him so many times in so many ways, my question to Akins is what are the things you can do or not do that can result in you losing your salvation,

01:09:43

I posted this in the chat room, his very next reply was, let me write this article, thanks, was you will not do sins if you are regenerate is simply saying someone living in the state of grace is saved, that is catholic doctrine, what, saying you do not do this, you won't do this sins, this sins, if you are regenerate is simply,

01:10:28

I said you don't abide in them, you don't walk in them, that's what I was saying, did you not hear me say the word abide and wrote a reference of first John 3, 6 through 8, see this is why

01:10:44

I want to catch him, but you know what this is working out fine, because I'm writing an article here, I told him that I said it was regarding those who abide in sin, not just commit any sin, right, there's my question, my question to Akins is,

01:11:04

I'm going to do it again, here it is, okay, you're claiming a believer does not keep the commandments, proves he's not regenerated, the catholic view of falling out of the grace is lost, okay, look,

01:11:16

I want you to answer my question, I keep answering your questions, here's my question, can you answer my question, my question to Akins is, what are the things that you can do or not do that can result in your losing salvation, posted the same question in the room again,

01:11:54

I need a list, you need to tell me some things you got to do, can't do, whatever, okay, he did not answer the question period, he avoided it again period, so I repasted it in the room,

01:12:43

I asked for a list of some things, show me what things, you're not answering the question, do good, give me a list, give me a few things, what do you got to do or not do, come on, what's good, you haven't defined what good is, incidentally,

01:13:01

Matthew 25, it's about sheep and goats, they're already sheep, not goats, sheep are to save goats or not, you fail to read the context there, okay, now look, can you please list me out,

01:13:16

I'm asking you specifically, I'm asking you to list me out the things you have to do or not do, you say obey the moral law, what moral law, give me a couple of specifics, why is this so difficult for you, he's not answering, you have to go to church, you have to never lie, can't commit adultery, can't murder, have to be nice to people, what are the things you have to do and or not do, give me two each, two or three, three each would be great, you know,

01:13:54

I'd like to know, don't just say obey the moral law, I'm gonna have to ask you, give me examples of this moral law that you say we have to obey,

01:14:03

I want specificity, I'm not losing it, I'm asking you, you're not my brother in Christ, you're false, look,

01:14:14

I'm asking you, can you please give me a list, okay,

01:14:20

I'm asking you, don't ask me questions, please, you keep asking me question after question, I'm answering you repeatedly,

01:14:26

I'm trying to get you to give me an answer, folks, didn't

01:14:31

I say that this is how it goes, I get frustrated after a while, this is what's happening, then

01:14:37

I say we're done, then they go claim victory, so okay, murder, okay, what else, that's one, another one, give me two more you can'ts and three you can's or you must do, okay, let's do three and three, so can't murder, what else, give me three things you can't do, okay,

01:15:08

Scott, leave him alone about his divorce, okay, I'm asking, okay, can't commit adultery, can't murder, can't admit adultery, okay, do not believe we can, look, look,

01:15:30

I'm asking you for a list, don't turn this on me, but I just gave an answer and you're not answering my question, oh, geez, you piece, this is ridiculous, this is so tough, look, give me another one, another thing you can't do and then

01:15:48

I'm going to ask you, I'm eating some salami, some pizza, pizza pepperonis,

01:15:54

I'm trying to stay low carb, okay, sorry, I shouldn't be doing that, it's gross, okay, so I have two things you can't do,

01:16:03

I want three, can't murder, can't commit adultery, can't what else, okay,

01:16:10

I'm going to keep asking you, I'm asking you for specific things, oh, they're good, okay, no, can't murder, can't commit adultery, can't what else, give me one more and then give me three things you have to do, come on, this is what you're teaching,

01:16:26

I'm asking this, I have spent a lot of time answering your questions, keeping record how you're avoiding me and now

01:16:35

I'm asking you specific things, okay, I asked

01:16:40

Aiken for three things you can't do and three things you must do in order to retain your salvation, it was like pulling teeth trying to get him to answer, nevertheless, comma,

01:16:56

I kept working it, okay, all right, can't murder, can't adultery, what's another one,

01:17:12

Rick Aikens, now you're not being forthright here, please give me three things,

01:17:18

I'm asking again, what are the, give me three things you can't do and three things you must do, just tell me, you should know this because you keep your salvation by what you do and don't do,

01:17:31

I'm just asking, okay, cannot deny Christ, okay, okay, here we go, it only took an hour, cannot deny

01:17:37

Christ, okay, good, must do what, there's three, do you believe we can't, look,

01:17:44

I'm asking you questions, now, don't turn it around on me, I'm asking you, what are the three things, give me three things you have to do to keep yourself right with God and don't say, you must not commit murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not deny

01:18:01

Christ and those are, that's just nothing, okay, come on, give me something, give me the three things,

01:18:07

I'm gonna, I'm not gonna let you go on this, buddy, what are the, give me three things out of the multitudinous things you better do in order to keep yourself right with God, I just wanna know, it took several minutes of persistent asking to get him to respond, okay, oh,

01:18:38

I'm gonna just quote you this, I'll just quote, I'll just, okay, this is where he says, must believe in Christ, that's just the corollary of not deny

01:18:52

Christ, okay, must repent of our sins and must obey the Lord, okay, obey the Lord, no, no, no,

01:19:00

Rich, I'm asking you questions for a while, obey the Lord, obey what, you're the one who said obey the

01:19:05

Lord, obey what, I asked him to obey what, question mark, let's see if he answers, give me a couple things, it is my turn to ask questions, so what is it you must obey, love

01:19:28

God, love your neighbor, would you agree, you gotta love God and love your neighbor, would you agree that that's, that's what you gotta do, would you agree that loving

01:19:36

God and loving your neighbor are things we must obey in order to be saved, whoops, so I asked him, so I asked him if, comma, for summary's sake, comma, if to obey the

01:19:59

Lord means to obey the first and second commandments, semicolon, namely, comma, love

01:20:05

God and love your neighbor, summaries, let me get this right, so I asked him if, for summary's sake, if to obey the

01:20:23

Lord means to obey, okay, first and second commandments, namely, love

01:20:30

God and love your neighbor, okay, I'm going to copy and paste this, okay, now, look, notice folks,

01:20:45

I'm going on a half hour, no, it's been, I was looking at my clock, it started at seven, it's been 11 minutes, and I'm having to say the same thing over and over because you don't answer questions,

01:20:54

Rick, you couldn't out of a wet paper bag, now, so I asked him, for summary's sake, if to obey the

01:21:02

Lord means to obey the first and second commandments, namely, love God and love your neighbor, okay, so is that good enough,

01:21:16

I just want to know if that's good enough, is that good enough, easy, it's a yes or a no, okay, let me see, you guys think

01:21:46

I've been fair answering questions, and he's not been very good answering questions, what do you guys think, this is why he doesn't want to have a real, yeah,

01:21:57

I can see why, okay, no, you are the one who's repeatedly asking,

01:22:13

I'm asking you something, and it's taking a very long time to get anything done with you, you're very resistant,

01:22:19

I have to ask questions repeatedly in order to get you to answer something, and you are very difficult on purpose, you don't want to answer anything because I'm setting you up, and I want you to help me set you up, now, loving

01:22:37

God and loving your neighbor, is that what you have to do in your definition of obey the

01:22:45

Lord, in order to keep yourself saved, I asked you about your comment about obeying the

01:22:56

Lord, and if he's weird, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, hold on guys,

01:23:10

I'm distracted, come on, what the heck, okay, one of my programs is totally wigging out, where I'm keeping my notes, you got to hold on, why is it doing what it's doing, so I'm not paying attention to what's happening on the screen, we have to close it, so hold on, dang, hold on guys, why is it doing that, dang it, this is where I've been keeping my notes, and it locked, so I'm going to close it, see how much

01:23:50

I lost, now I'm going to do something first, hold on guys, okay, hold on, okay, bear with me, all right, close the program, hopefully

01:24:07

I don't lose, when I reopen it, oh, that's weird, hold on folks,

01:24:13

I'm not even watching what's going on in the screen here, hold on, okay, come on, close the window, it won't close, why is it not closing, okay, now

01:24:28

I get the task manager, hold on, this might keep my notes, so performance processes, okay, notepad, so I'll keep my stuff in notepad, why would it fail, that is so strange, okay, okay, hold on folks, sorry, it has locked up, and I can't continue until it's taken care of, this will give him plenty of time to work on something, lm note, why is it not working, why is it, that's bad, processes, okay, sorry about that folks, there we go, notepad, okay, let's see, is it working, nope, still not working, okay, end task, wow, that took a bit of work, okay, let's see, it's reopening, and, oh, okay, okay, hold on,

01:25:45

I'm going to use my speech program here, and catch up, hold on a sec, so I asked him, answers, your neighbor, okay, good,

01:25:58

I asked you about your comments about obeying the Lord, okay, okay, that's good, all right, sorry about that folks,

01:26:10

I do, get a Mac, I would crash Macs too, I use my systems,

01:26:18

I push them to their very limit, I do, I have 32 gigs of DDR3 RAM, and now, the chat thing is not working, of course,

01:26:39

I think my computer's just getting old, I've had it for like four years, I need a new motherboard, new stuff, hold on,

01:26:47

I can't even see the chat, what the heck, refreshing the page, what the heck, come on, something crashed, all right, nothing's happening, what the heck is going on, all right, can anyone see this, okay, waiting for, oh, it's an extension that's giving me a problem, that's what it is, okay,

01:27:58

I apologize, seriously, okay, that text is back, it's an extension,

01:28:05

I'm going to write the notes down what that is, that extension is, I'll turn it off right now, sorry guys, there's an extension

01:28:20

I have that's giving me problems, and that's what the problem is, and appearance themes, this will give him time to recoup, and maybe actually answer some questions, sorry about this folks, okay, settings, that's why

01:28:43

I don't like this, okay, I can't find the extension thing, I won't worry about it right now, okay, you do,

01:28:58

Joe, we got to talk then, because I'm ready to get a new system, seriously, and if we could take the enum key out of the registry, then

01:29:11

I could just take my SSD drive, move it over, redo it, if you know what I mean, okay, yeah, my computer is several years old, and so, all right, simple question, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're answering my questions for a while,

01:29:29

I apologize for the difficulty, but I'm the one answering questions right now, now, would you agree, sorry, we're back, and we're going, would you agree, you agree,

01:29:52

Akins, that keeping the command to love God, and love your neighbor, are requirements in order for you to stay saved, okay, well,

01:30:15

Joe, send me an email about that, but it's got to be cranking good, okay, so, we're back on track, sorry, we just had a problem, it just happens, it's been getting a little buggy lately,

01:30:28

I think just everything's old, all right, so, Akins, now, to continue on, look, you can whine all you want, and misrepresent the facts all you want,

01:30:46

I've been answering you left and right, I've had to struggle in order to get you to answer me, and I keep saying the same stinking thing to you, and then you say this, that, oh, you want me to get on voice, we wouldn't have nearly as many problems if you were on voice, but I'm telling you, it's actually helping me, because I'm producing an article about this encounter with you in the meantime, and I'm going to release it on CARM, okay, it's about time, guys, why does it take so long, why does it take so long for him to do this, now, here's a question, he said we got to love

01:31:20

God, he didn't say you had to love your neighbor, I asked both, you have to love God and love your neighbor, okay, so, yeah,

01:31:29

I asked, do you have to love God and your neighbor in order to be saved, he only answered, he didn't answer the question, he answered, yes, you have to love

01:31:36

God, so, I'm waiting for him to answer the other part of the question, which is real simple, must you love

01:31:41

God and love your neighbor, that's what I'm asking you, notice, folks, everybody notice how difficult it is for me to get a straight answer out of him, how many of you just, you notice that, say yes, no, it's very, very difficult for me to get a straight answer out of him,

01:31:57

I have to just pull and pull and pull and try and get him to answer, anybody notice that, okay, good, now, finally, it only took 10 minutes, well, take five away from my little computer problem, good, so, here's another question now, okay, since you said you must, one second, since you said that in order to be saved, you can't murder, commit adultery, deny

01:32:40

Christ and that you must believe in Christ, repent of your sins and you must love

01:32:47

God and love your neighbor, then, I'm asking you,

01:33:01

I'm asking you, are you doing all of it, so,

01:33:16

I'm trying to get a conversation with you, so, are you doing it, are you doing it, are you doing it, okay,

01:34:04

I'm asking if you're doing what you say is required, people who don't love

01:34:10

God are not saved, what's a love God, because that's a manifestation of being regenerate, so, they love God, because God first loved us, now, are you doing what it is you say is required,

01:34:18

I answered your question, are you doing it, are you doing all that you gotta do,

01:34:50

I'm simply asking, I think we can all see here that I've answered dozens of questions, Matt says he's answering them left and right, no one answered right, uh -huh, yeah, so,

01:34:57

I'm asking you, based on what you said, I just answered your question and then I ask you another one, you asked me,

01:35:03

I answered and now I'm asking you a question and you're not answering, uh -huh, and we know how it works, here, watch this folks, not answering,

01:35:42

Bill, stop talking about him and his first wife, next time you do that,

01:35:47

I'm going to kick you out of here, guys, stick to the topic, don't attack someone's family,

01:35:55

I know what this is like, people attack me because of my daughter, I'm just telling you, stop, it's not part of our conversation, if I want to talk about it with him,

01:36:07

I will ask him politely if it's okay to talk about the family matter, that's the right way to handle it, so, if you're keeping the law sufficiently to keep yourself saved, are you, then

01:36:30

James 2 10, for whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point, become guilty of all, and Galatians 3 10, for as many as the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them, so Rick, are you doing what you said you must do in order to be saved, you said, you said this, you said, you can't murder, commit adultery, deny

01:37:12

Christ, you must, oops, didn't put that word right, put believe, I'll correct that, okay, my typo mistake, you must believe in Christ, repent of your sins, you must love

01:37:25

God, and love your neighbor, and I'm asking you, are you doing all of it, well,

01:37:32

Rick Atkins, thank you, I don't see it being appropriate, because I'm sure you blew it, and I'm, and you can point fingers at me for blowing it, in personal matters, that's just, that's the way it is,

01:37:47

I don't think it's okay, but it's just, which is a theological discussion, now, are you doing all of what you say you're required to do in light of James 2 10 and Galatians 3 10, this is gonna make a good article,

01:38:23

I asked him repeatedly to answer the question, period, but he kept saying that I wasn't answering his questions, period, but the truth is,

01:38:31

I was answering his questions repeatedly, period, the problem is that I have to ask him the same thing several times in order to get him to answer, period, so comma,

01:38:43

I kept trying to get him to answer based on what it was he proclaimed as necessary for salvation, period,

01:38:51

I wanted to know if he is doing what he says is necessary in light of the word of God, speech programs are great,

01:39:06

Matt, the call is not perfection, yes, it is perfection, okay, he said the call is not perfection, yes, it is,

01:39:19

I just gave you the verses, for as many as are the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, curses everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them,

01:39:29

James 2 10 says, for whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point, become guilty of all, that's perfection, that's the standard, now, guess what, this is what

01:39:48

Paul says, or excuse me, this is what Deuteronomy 27 26 says, notice that Paul is quoting it, okay,

01:39:59

Paul is quoting this, the standard is perfection because the

01:40:09

Bible says so, that's, yeah, but that,

01:40:15

Matt, Scott, what that's talking about, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, the context is at verse 43, talking about loving

01:40:21

God and loving your, you know, everybody, I mean, loving your neighbors yourself, that's what it's talking about, the call is perfection, you believe that you don't have to obey any law, you're not, look,

01:40:28

Rick, you don't even answer specific questions, you try to take every, every answer as a question, that's what you try and do, if I was in a public debate with you, where it was moderated and the whole bit,

01:40:40

I'd be constantly going to the moderator, moderator, can you get him to, to answer the question directly without posing a question, because it's not time for me to be questioned, we would have a

01:40:49

Q &A period, where you get to answer, ask questions, and I have to answer for 10 -15 minutes, and vice versa, that's how it works, but what you do all the time, is you answer a question by asking a question, you are so lost in your

01:41:06

Roman Catholicism, you're so lost, I show you the word of God, and you have failed miserably, the standard is

01:41:15

God's perfection and holiness, he says, be holy, for I am holy, 1 Peter 1 16,

01:41:21

Paul says in Galatians 3 10, that cursed you are, if you don't abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them, you're the one saying, you've got to love

01:41:32

God and love your neighbor, which Jesus said, and we said earlier, is a summation of the whole law, you're saying you've got to keep the law to be saved, the standard by God's word is perfection, you're not doing it, you are lost, you are lost, oh

01:41:49

I would answer, I have been answered, watch this, watch this folks, he says,

01:41:55

I'm not answering, ask me a specific question, and then you ask, you answer me a specific question, okay, all right, okay, he said,

01:42:22

I wasn't answering his questions, period, so comma, I challenged him, period, I said, ask me one question,

01:42:29

I'll answer it, period, then I'll ask you a question, and you answer it, I got my question,

01:42:56

I got it ready, this is the third time for this simple question, do those who commit murder and don't repent of it, saved, do those who commit murder and don't repent of it, saved, that's not a complete question, try it again, guys, he's asking me a question, he's not going to be answering your stuff, okay, first of all, your sentence is poorly worded, if a

01:44:17

Christian commits murder, does not repent, are they saved, singular, so you should be, is he saved, so if he's a

01:44:24

Christian, then it means he is saved, if he commits murder, we have different instances we got to look at, if he commits murder in an act of rage, and then he has a heart attack and dies,

01:44:33

I would say he's still saved, if he commits murder, but he continues to act in a manner that's inconsistent with what the word of God says, then he's not a

01:44:41

Christian to begin with, when you say Christian, you're not defining whether or not the person is regenerate, or as I believe you mean, just a law keeper and a member of a church, and so therefore, since you assume that law keeping is what makes you

01:44:54

Christian and not, therefore, you're offering a sentence that doesn't work from your own perspective, because you're saying if a

01:45:00

Christian who keeps the law to be saved, doesn't keep the law to be saved, then are they saved, and then of course, the question would logically be required to answer is no, because you're asking from your perspective, from my perspective, a person can commit murder and adultery and still be saved, but let me explain how, you see, we're not justified by our works, am

01:45:19

I saying it's okay to commit murder, am I saying it's okay to commit adultery, no, I am not, people have committed varying levels of sins in their hearts as well, because Jesus says a standard of this murder and adultery is unrighteous anger and looking on a woman to lust, and if you do those,

01:45:38

Jesus said, then you've committed murder and you've committed adultery, so if someone looks on a woman with lust and has anger for someone else, and then has a heart attack and it dies, does he go to heaven or hell, by your definition, by what you're saying, he has to go to hell, because he looked on a woman with lust, he was unrighteously angry with somebody, and therefore, he committed murder according to Jesus' own words, he died, he goes to hell, but you see, what you're talking about is actually committing it, but Jesus says, when you see, look, and you do these things, it's like committing the real thing, this is the problem that you don't understand, you keep salvation by your works, you think true

01:46:15

Christians do so or keep their salvation by what they do, by the performance that they have under the law, and I'm saying true

01:46:22

Christians don't do that, because believe it or not, check this out, 1

01:46:30

John 3, 9, no one who is born of God practices sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he's born of God, I'm going to show you something, something you don't know, obviously, now bear with me, just stay tuned, all right,

01:46:46

I'm going to show you something, now, watch this, bear with me, 1

01:46:54

John 3, 4, it says, sin is breaking the law of God, that's what 1

01:46:59

John 3, 4 says, all right, now, what I'm going to do is go to a verse, hold on,

01:47:05

I'm going to answer you, check this out, look at this, hold on Rick, I'm answering, don't keep asking me questions when

01:47:14

I'm answering you, I'm not done answering you, you want an answer, I'm giving you an answer, and now what you're doing is you're interrupting me when

01:47:21

I'm trying to answer you, the law says, for until the law, the Bible says, for until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law, why am

01:47:31

I bringing that up folks, I'll show you, sin is not imputed when there is no law, right, now, watch this folks, let me show you this, watch, guys, listen to this, listen to this,

01:47:53

Romans 7, 4, therefore, my brethren, you are also made to die to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to one another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God, what's he saying, now, wait a minute,

01:48:06

John the apostle says, no one who's born of God practices sin, because his sin abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he's born of God, to be born of God, and I can quote the references here, but let me just show you, is that Romans 6, 6 says, we're crucified with Christ, Romans 6, 8 says, we died with Christ, what does

01:48:24

Romans 7, 4 say, we've died with Christ, therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the law through the body of Christ, so I've died with Christ, so therefore, the law is dead to me, therefore, there is no law,

01:48:35

Romans 5, 13, sin is not imputed when there is no law, because I've died with Christ, the law has no jurisdiction over me, this is why in 1

01:48:44

John 3, 9, the one who is born again cannot sin, because God does not see us as having committed sins, because we've died to the law, and Romans 5, 13 says, when there is no law, there is no sin, it's called a theology lesson, this is why

01:48:59

Paul talks like this, this is why John talks like it, and we can harmonize the scripture, we understand that, that's what's going on, now, and you're right,

01:49:12

Romans 4, 8, blessed is the man who sinned, the Lord does not take into account, now, I answered you, now my turn for a question,

01:49:30

I'm gonna, hold on, I'm gonna copy your thing down for the article, don't answer, don't ask me anything,

01:49:36

I'm not gonna respond to anything, if you ask me a question, it's my turn to ask a question, getting it,

01:49:47

I'm getting his stuff down, okay, answer please, there, that was his question, he asked, okay,

01:49:55

I responded with Romans 5, 13, 7, 4, and 1

01:50:04

John 3, now, my question, okay, let me get it, hey, hold on a sec, okay, hold on,

01:50:24

I'm typing it out, I gotta do this, because this is gonna take a bit, hold on, oh yeah, here we go, here we go, there we go, all right, almost done, almost done,

01:51:00

I know, right, now, here's my question, here we go, ready guys,

01:51:18

I have to paste it in two parts, because it doesn't allow us to do the whole thing, there we go, since you said that in order to be saved, you can't commit murder, commit adultery, deny, or deny

01:51:31

Christ, and that you must believe in Christ, repent of your sins, and you must love God, and love your neighbor, remember, that's the standard, you said, that I'm asking you, are you doing all of it according to the standard of the word of God found in James 2 .10

01:51:42

and 3 .10, now, just, just to help you out, I'll post what those are,

01:51:48

James 2 .10, okay, and here's

01:51:59

Galatians, certain that one, and it'll go in, there, watch, he won't answer, he'll respond with a question, let's see if he does, well, thanks

01:52:27

Joe, I don't have any money to build anything, that's a problem, I have a very good, brand new video card,

01:52:38

I've got two 27 inch 4k monitors, and a 34 inch 2k, but I need a new motherboard, new ram, cpu, power supply, case,

01:52:53

I probably could do it, but I got a case I could use, vacuum sealed with an aquarium inside of it, air cooled is fine too,

01:53:09

I'll try to get a fan, I actually do need to build a new one, because of some rules and stuff, folks, did he answer my question, did he answer my question, he didn't answer my question, my question was, are you doing all that's necessary, are you doing all of it according to the standard of the word of the law, that's my question,

01:53:59

I asked him, are you doing all of it according to the standard of the word of God found in James 2 .10 and 3 .10,

01:54:05

he says yes, I'm repenting of my sins, did I ask him, are you repenting of your sins, I did not ask, are you repenting of your sins,

01:54:13

I didn't ask that, I asked, are you doing all of it according to the standard of the word of God found in James 2 .10

01:54:21

and Galatians 3 .10, folks, did he answer my question, did he answer my question, anybody, did he answer my question,

01:54:50

I asked you, if you are doing enough, all of what you said is required to keep yourself saved in light of Galatians of James 2 .10

01:55:10

and Galatians 3 .10, notice he didn't address, he didn't address it,

01:55:23

I asked about that in reference to the scriptures, he did not answer the question, so since he hasn't answered the question,

01:55:31

I don't have to answer any more of his questions, because he's not answering my question, he wants to answer my question, he didn't answer it, see, there he goes asking questions, watch this guys, no,

01:55:44

I do not perfectly obey the law of God, I can never do that because I'm never good enough in any way, every single thing

01:55:51

I do in some form or another is touched by sin because I am wicked, that's why I rely solely on the grace of the

01:55:59

Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the law perfectly and I trust in what he did and that's why I know

01:56:04

I can have eternal life, 1 John 5 .13, I know that I don't have to keep any law in order to be saved, there you go, now, you are doing enough to go, so you, wow, okay,

01:56:26

I pressured him and asked, answered another question that he gave, period, even though, comma, he didn't answer my question, period, he asked if I was keeping the law perfectly and I said of course not, period, and I expounded on that period, then he actually said this, okay, so you are doing enough, so you're doing enough to keep yourself saved before the infinitely holy

01:57:03

God, wow, that's amazing, we have a guy who can keep the law of God sufficiently to keep himself right with the infinitely holy

01:57:17

God, I answered your question, did

01:57:27

I, look, look, guys, look what he's doing, he said there's another outstanding question to you, yet again, that I answered, did

01:57:32

I answer his last question, did I answer it, folks, I answered him, and then he said

01:57:41

I don't answer, are you serious, you're the one who said you're doing enough to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy

01:57:50

God, you are so good, pat yourself on the back, you love the law keeper, you who are seeking to be justified by law, you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace, oh, now

01:58:04

I'm lying, okay, folks, this is what happens, now notice, notice what happens, look, he called me a liar, now folks, am

01:58:15

I lying, have I lied, am I lying at all, have

01:58:21

I not said earlier that if I misrepresented him, I apologize, I want to understand him, did

01:58:26

I not say that, yes, I did, and I've called him out on his statements, it took forever to get me through, get to him to answer stuff, then he calls me a liar, this is what they resort to, when they're against the ropes, they painted themselves into a corner, he called me a liar, did

01:59:16

I answer, folks, one more time, his last question, did

01:59:21

I answer it or did I not answer it, he said, you're doing enough because you're repenting of your sin, what you said, you're doing enough, you're keeping the law, you're repenting of your sin, you're keeping yourself right with God by what you do, hey, you're the one who's saying you're keeping the law enough to be saved, you say, yeah,

01:59:51

I'm doing enough because I'm repenting when I sin, really, you bore false witness, are you repenting of that, you're seeking salvation by your own hand, are you repenting of that, we can get into Mary if you want, talk about Mary, I'm doing enough,

02:00:11

I'm repenting, repentance is keeping the law, it's turning from that which is wrong to that which is right, which can only be done by knowing what the law says, if you're lying, you repent, you stop lying and you tell the truth, that's keeping the law, we talked about this earlier, you're the one saying that you're keeping your salvation by what you do, you said,

02:00:32

I'm doing enough, I'm doing enough to keep myself right with God because folks, I'm repenting,

02:00:39

I'm repenting, therefore, I'm keeping myself right with the infinitely holy

02:00:46

God, hey everybody, I'm repenting, yes, repenting is keeping the law, no, keep, no, repenting is not asking forgiveness, you want to know how

02:01:11

I know, okay, I'm going to put this in here, this is good too, amen, anything is keeping the law or he said, watch this,

02:01:25

I said, I'm doing enough by repenting of my sins, okay, wow, okay, so your repentance gets you right with God, not the blood of Christ, you've never appealed to Christ's blood, the sacrifice and the cross yet tonight,

02:01:38

I have, you haven't and no, repenting is not keeping the law, it's asking forgiveness, no, to repent means to stop doing something wrong, metanoeo in the

02:01:48

Greek, to turn, to have a change of mind, if I ask forgiveness, it's Lord, please forgive me for what

02:01:53

I have done, okay, repenting is, I stop repenting, I stop,

02:01:59

I stop doing what is wrong, once you stop doing what's wrong, hopefully, what you should do as a

02:02:05

Christian is say, Lord, I know that's wrong, I've stopped, I don't want to do it anymore, please forgive me, that's what you do, they're not the same thing, wow, this guy can do enough, he can repent, what happens, just curious, if,

02:02:35

I'm just curious, if you repent and do the same sin again, do your, the other sins come back on you,

02:02:42

I'm just curious, is that what you hold to, it's a very specific question, don't anybody say anything, if you were to sin, you repent and then you sin again, the same sin, does all your sin come back on you,

02:02:58

I'm just curious, yeah, that's right,

02:03:14

Matthew 7, Luke 11, Matthew 6, Luke 11, I just asked you a question, if you commit the same sin, does the sin come back on you, you know, if you commit that same sin, you've been forgiven of or you repented of and then you sin again, does it come back on you, and if he were to commit a sin that he had already repented of, does his former sin come back on him, that's my question, this is my notes, okay, here's my question, there's my question, can you answer the question, can you answer the question,

02:04:27

I just want to know what your position is, that's all, can you answer that question, I'm waiting for the question, here it is, just let him answer guys, come on, be patient, he's writing something up, which means he's not answering the question,

02:05:24

I'm assuming, he's going to talk about something else, my turn to ask a question, isn't it folks, right, did you answer my question, third time

02:06:07

I'm asking the question, my turn, this is for my notes, let me just do it this way, okay, okay, here we go, here we go, so is your answer yes or no to the question, can you answer yes or no,

02:07:23

I don't see an answer, I asked you, if you were to commit a sin that's already been repented of, you just keep committing that same sin, does this former sin come back on you, just a simple question, is it a yes or no, that's all, let me put my notes here, he repeatedly failed to answer the question, even though I repeatedly pasted it in there, period, it's a simple yes or no question, and apparently he didn't want to answer it, he did say was, first comma, that isn't answering the question, okay, so you can't answer the question, and it's just a yes or no, and you can't answer it,

02:08:40

I'll answer the question, no, no, simple, what do you say, yes or no,

02:09:01

I'm waiting, just curious, can you please answer that question, that's my,

02:09:08

I'm asking, you're not answering, are you not seeing my response, no, then why don't you just say no, man, it took like five minutes for him to say no, wow, hey, guess what, guess what folks, look at this, watch this,

02:09:50

I'm glad he said no, that's good, because I was totally setting him up, okay, here

02:10:00

I'll show you how I was setting him up, but he didn't fall for it, that's good for him, his

02:10:07

Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7, Mormon theology, I was quoting, just see what he would say, and he, he, he wouldn't answer the question for a long time, if he had said yes, oh, it would have been bad, these are really good, all right, well,

02:10:33

I think it's pretty obvious, Akins did pretty badly, Akin is

02:10:39

Akin, he's Akin now, repentance brings forgiveness, oh, okay, so repentance, keeping the law is what gets you forgiveness, heretic, so what do you do, someone on a deathbed,

02:11:06

I've seen this, I've seen this happen, oh, not, I mean, excuse me, let me clarify,

02:11:12

I used to work at a hospital, I was transport, and I would see people in various forms of health, and near death, one time,

02:11:24

I saw a man, never forget his face, looking at me, he was an elderly man, and he's very close to dying, and he was looking at me with fear in his eyes, fear, and I wanted to go console him, but I couldn't, it was the chaplain's job, the chaplain happened to be a member of our church, and I went to,

02:11:47

I asked him about it, do people ever receive Christ on their deathbed, and then die right away, he said, yes, now, people on their deathbed often have tubes in their mouths, in their privates, they can't do anything, they know death is imminent, a minister comes in, gives them the gospel,

02:12:18

Jesus died for your sins, you trust in Christ, forgiveness of sins by faith in him, do you believe when you receive

02:12:26

Christ as your savior, they nod, that's all they can do, they die, now,

02:12:33

Akins, to such a person who's trusted in Christ, hasn't had time to do anything, hasn't been baptized, not been baptized, didn't do anything, just received and trusted in Christ, for the forgiveness of the sins, and then dies, does he go to heaven or hell, you need to repent is what you need to do in your heart of the false teachings of the

02:13:04

Catholic church, that's what you gotta do, because you're lost, you're under judgment, so there's such a man who dies like that, does he go to heaven or hell, he's not baptized, not a member of the

02:13:19

Catholic church, okay, so then you're saying the reason he goes to heaven is what, for what reason, because he repented, is that what you're saying, the reason he goes to heaven is because he repented of his sins, that's what

02:13:38

I wanted to ask you, are you saying because he repented of his sins on his deathbed, that's why he goes to heaven, also

02:13:56

Scott, don't forget Philippians 129, so you said repentance is what gets you saved, so you're saying this man repented, are you saying that this man repented, repentance is what gets him saved,

02:14:16

Sidney's Jacob, there's a lot of good Catholic doctrine, seriously, it's just the essentials, they really mess up badly, we haven't even started on Mary, just like the good thief, the person who repents of their sins is baptized into the faith and they're saved, no, the thief on the cross was not baptized and he died under the old covenant, excuse me, he died under the new covenant because Christ died first and Romans 8, 13,

02:14:51

Romans 9, 15 through 16, the covenant is ratified with the death of Christ, so therefore when he died, the new covenant time was there, so according to you, he had to be baptized, but he wasn't, it's my turn, that person repents of their deathbed forgiven in heaven, yes, yes, because, but I'll give you,

02:15:12

I'm asking you, is it because that they repent and that's why they're saved, I'm asking you, is it because of their repentance that's why they're saved, is it because, is a person on their deathbed who dies saved because they repent of their sins, now

02:15:41

I misspoke in my grammar, singular and plural, you know, guys, would you please, it's one thing

02:16:08

I don't like when a lot of people want to add stuff in, sometimes they risk helping the other person get out of a difficult situation by inadvertently giving them an answer ahead of time, that's one of the things

02:16:21

I don't like, I know what I'm doing, obviously, I'm setting them up right now,

02:16:28

I'm telling them I'm setting them up, I'm asking them a question which he has trouble answering,

02:16:35

Matt, please answer, if they're in heaven, why, I didn't say they didn't repent of their sins,

02:16:41

I told you why they were in heaven, you weren't listening, I'm asking you a specific question,

02:16:46

I answer your questions, you don't answer mine, I have to fight you to get an answer, I can,

02:16:52

I'm asking you again, are you saying that the person in the deathbed, because he repents of his sins, that's why he goes to heaven, that's what

02:17:00

I'm asking you, that's what

02:17:06

I'm asking you, he's on his deathbed, he repents of his sins, is that why he goes to heaven,

02:17:17

I'm gonna say no, what do you say, he can't answer any questions, man, you did a bad job tonight, buddy, you did a really bad job,

02:17:50

I think it's time to move along, I answer the questions directly, get scripture,

02:18:00

I ask him questions, I gotta fight him and fight him and fight him to get an answer, you can't, you know,

02:18:10

Akins, you're not that logical, it's a problem, I have to teach Christians a lot of logic as well, if you jump high enough, can you touch the moon, simple test of your logic ability,

02:18:24

Rick, Akins, don't anybody else answer, if you jump high enough, can you touch the moon, real simple, say yes or no,

02:18:31

Akins, can you answer the question, very easy answer, yes or no, if you jump high enough, can you touch the moon, he's not very logical,

02:19:10

I asked a specific question, he doesn't answer the specific question, let me ask you, answer you guys, silence means

02:19:22

I'm lost without an answer, brother, is that what it means, that's what it means, or it means that I'm really tired of fighting with every step, trying to get a decent answer out of you and you can't think critically, that's what that, it couldn't mean that, wow, you don't answer the questions and everybody in here knows it and you have the gall to try and turn it around like that, something about not bearing false witness, okay, everybody, if you jump high enough, can you touch the moon, yes or no, what's the answer, there's only one correct answer, you're not sure, don't take a guess,

02:20:06

I'll show you what logic is, anybody else, answer is yes, because if you haven't touched the moon, you haven't jumped high enough, if you jump high enough, can you touch the moon, of course, otherwise it's not high enough, the answer is required, affirmative is required in the construction of the sentence, just simple logic, okay, now what

02:20:42

I asked him was a specific question, I did it on purpose, there's a reason,

02:20:47

I'll explain what I was doing, if you die in your deathbed and repent of your sins, are you forgiven, that's what

02:20:56

I asked, I didn't ask and believe in Jesus and or trust in Christ, I said, if you die in your deathbed and repent of your sins, are you forgiven, that's what

02:21:08

I asked, the answer, of course, is no, turning from sin doesn't save anybody, because if that were the case, you'd be a

02:21:17

Muslim, because that's Islamic theology, in Islam, there's no atoning sacrifice, you have to hope inshallah, if Allah wills, that if you repent enough, you'll be forgiven, a simple logic, all you had to do is say, and he finally got kind of got to it, he didn't answer the question, he had to kind of go a different direction, you got to be in a relationship with Christ, that wasn't what

02:21:46

I said, wasn't, who am

02:21:53

I repenting to, wow, if I'm repenting, it'll be to my

02:22:00

Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as I always do, Lord, I'm a sinner, I still cannot do what

02:22:06

I need to do before you, I thank you for my grace, I make my grace, I thank you for the grace that you have continued to show on me, to keep me saved, not by my effort, not by my sincerity, not by my repentance, but my complete faith and trust in you, and that faith you give me,

02:22:27

John 6, 28, Philippians 1, 29, you play my game, if you repent to Jesus for your sins and enter a relationship with Jesus on your deathbed, then why are they saved, and why, you're saved because they put their trust in Christ, they're justified by faith, without the works of the law,

02:22:56

Romans 3, 28, Romans 4, 5, Romans 10, 9, and 10, see, this is easy when you have the

02:23:07

Bible on your side, you want to talk about Mary now,

02:23:16

I'd love to talk about Mary, yeah, maybe we could do it another time,

02:23:26

I got enough here for a good article, yeah, oh, wow,

02:23:37

I can make a good article, Paul, good point, exactly correct, careful in the wording, now what

02:23:53

Paul did was get a little bit more detailed, now we understood what it meant by relationship with Christ in the context of the saving relationship, but Paul is correct, careful with the wording, oh,

02:24:04

Judas and Pontius Pilate had a relationship with Jesus, that's correct, Judas was never saved to begin with, that's right, so Paul, good job, man, bless the link, tell you what, anonymous guy, go to the

02:24:21

CARM website on the left -hand side,

02:24:27

I'm left -hand side, right -hand side, you'll see live discussion link to join, okay,

02:24:36

I'm gonna use the restroom, be back in like a minute, sorry, and then maybe you'll be in by then, okay,

02:26:24

UFOs, boy, he means there's a lot of problems there, you keep bullying, look,

02:26:47

Tim Staples and everybody, they're welcome to come in here when they have these things, okay, so you set it up, all right, okay, anonymous guy, now can you guys, yeah, you guys should be able to hear, now, anonymous guys in the, are you there?

02:27:13

Yeah, Matt, are you able to hear me, am I coming in loud and clear? I hear you, you sound familiar, we talked before.

02:27:20

Yeah, we had that debate a while back when you first started your Apologetics Live podcast on baptism, water baptism, the necessity of water baptism.

02:27:32

You say baptism, necessary for salvation? Right, yeah, correct, but yeah, the two debates where I won both of the debates and you completely lost the debates, but yeah, wherever you say, hold on a sec, hold on a sec, hold on a sec, so do you believe that we're justified by faith?

02:27:56

Yeah, absolutely, so are we justified by faith when we believe? No, it's not about intellectual assent, that's where you're getting it wrong.

02:28:04

I didn't say that, I didn't say an intellectual assent. What do you mean? Define faith, define faith.

02:28:12

Would you shut up and let me answer? I keep trying to do that and you keep interrupting.

02:28:21

Faith, fiducia, heartfelt trust in the work of Christ and what he has done, not just a sentimental assent.

02:28:30

Now, that's what I'm talking about. Is a person justified by faith when he believes?

02:28:37

Well, you gotta believe, that's a requirement, absolutely. This is the Aitken's Dodge.

02:28:44

Is a man justified by faith when he believes? Not faith alone.

02:28:51

Okay, the answer is either yes or no, so your answer is no? I just gave you the answer, not faith alone.

02:28:59

Okay, so in other words, the answer is no, so you're not justified by faith when you believe. I didn't say faith alone,

02:29:05

I said when you believe. You're not justified by faith when you believe, that's what you're saying, correct? You're not justified when you simply believe alone.

02:29:16

Okay, so I'm asking you a question. I didn't say, did anybody here hear me say justified by faith alone?

02:29:22

I didn't say that. This guy can't answer the question. Remember, he's the guy who said he won both the debates.

02:29:28

Yeah, so fiducia, a heartfelt trust in the work of Christ, God in flesh, died on the cross, rose from the dead, believing and trusting that Jesus' blood cleanses from our sins.

02:29:39

When a person believes that, receives that trust in Christ, that's an issue of faith. The Bible says we're justified by faith, okay, not by the works of the law.

02:29:47

So my question to you is very specific. See if you can answer a very specific question. Is a man justified by faith when he believes?

02:29:56

No, you're justified when you get water baptism, but belief is a requirement when you get water baptized.

02:30:03

So you said no, so a man is not justified by faith when he has faith. Not faith alone.

02:30:10

I didn't say faith alone. I said faith when he believes because the Bible says a man is justified by faith.

02:30:15

That's what it says. I'm just according to the scriptures. Apparently you don't like the word of God, Mr. I beat you in both the debates.

02:30:23

Yeah, I love the word of God. The Bible actually proves the teachings of the Catholic church. Yeah, right.

02:30:30

So we're not justified by faith when we believe. We're justified by faith when we believe and go to a ceremony.

02:30:38

You're justified by believing, by repentance, and by water baptism.

02:30:44

Look at Acts 2 .38. But you don't believe in Acts 2 .38. Don't tell me what I believe. Acts 2 .38,

02:30:50

okay? Repent and you shall be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the goodness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the

02:30:56

Holy Spirit. Is that a formula for salvation? Yes, it is a formula whereby one is justified.

02:31:02

You need to believe, you need to repent, and you need to be baptized. That's what Acts 2 .38 says.

02:31:08

No, it does not. Faith is not mentioned. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. Remember guys, this is the guy, everyone, this is the guy who said he beat me in both debates, okay?

02:31:20

Now, he said faith is there in Acts 2 .38, right? What I'm going to do is read it.

02:31:28

Peter said to them, repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the goodness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the

02:31:34

Holy Spirit. Is the word faith in there or belief in there? Well, if you're repenting, you're not repenting to Buddha, are you?

02:31:41

You have to repent to the God of the Bible, right? That's what Peter is saying, right?

02:31:47

Is Peter telling them to repent to the God of the Bible? Yes or no? I asked you, is the word faith or belief in there?

02:31:55

It's a simple question. We can't go past it until you answer the question. Well, let's look at this for a moment.

02:32:00

Is the word faith or belief in there? Stop interrupting. Let's discuss. Is the word faith or belief in there?

02:32:10

Let's discuss that. Is it in there? You can't read it? Here, I'll do it again. Watch. Everybody listen.

02:32:16

I'm going to read the verse to you. Tell me if the word faith or belief is in there.

02:32:23

You ready? Okay, here we go. Now, Peter said to them, quote, repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the

02:32:43

Holy Spirit. Anybody? Was the word faith or belief mentioned in there?

02:32:55

Anybody? The answer, of course, is no. So let me ask him a question.

02:33:01

Is the word faith or belief in Acts 238? Notice, everyone, that I'm trying to discuss

02:33:08

Acts 238 and he'll interrupt me because he doesn't want to discuss

02:33:14

Acts 238 because the fact of the matter is... I'm focusing on Acts 238.

02:33:19

I'm asking about Acts 238. I've read it twice. I even quoted it once and now I'm not focusing and don't want to discuss

02:33:26

Acts 238. Are you serious? I'm asking you, is the word faith or belief in the verse?

02:33:37

Matt, can someone repent to the God of the Bible? Notice, he's going to continue interrupting me.

02:33:45

We cannot have a conversation because he continues interrupting me. Answer the question.

02:33:50

Is faith or the word faith or belief in there? It's real simple. Everyone that's watching this,

02:33:58

I want you to see this for a moment. This is a Protestant. Matt Slick is a Protestant. Okay, I'll tell you what.

02:34:05

This is what's happening. He's now muted. All right, folks.

02:34:12

So what I'm doing is dealing with an arrogant person. I don't like arrogant people.

02:34:21

Sorry, I just heard a very strange noise.

02:34:33

That was weird. All right. Let me ask you guys.

02:34:39

Anybody, is the word faith or belief in Acts 238? I just ask a simple question and he says

02:34:45

I'm not wanting to discuss it. I'm just asking a simple question. Okay.

02:34:52

Everybody, is the word faith or belief in there? This isn't hard. No, it is not.

02:34:58

Sorry, I had to put a voice there. It's not there. It's not there. Okay. So she says it's not there. Anybody else?

02:35:05

Come on. It takes about 15 seconds for the delay. Okay. Because he can't answer it, so we're going to have to answer it for him because he doesn't know how to read the

02:35:14

Greek, doesn't know how to read the English apparently, doesn't even know how to answer the simple question. You should answer the question and then we can go on to the next thing, but he can't even answer the simple question.

02:35:25

Yeah, I'd love that. Isn't that good? Matt doesn't want to talk about Acts 238. What are we talking about?

02:35:30

What am I focusing on? Acts 238. Hey, Rick, did

02:35:35

I, you didn't give me a chance. I only asked about one verse. When you say, Rick, and you didn't do very well tonight,

02:35:42

I'm ignoring the verse. I didn't say anything about that. I didn't ignore anything. The rule of hermeneutics is you first focus on the verse, then you expand out and read his context.

02:35:52

Come on. What about Acts? Okay. Go to verse 41. So then those who have received the word and were baptized, and they were added about 3 ,000 souls.

02:36:03

Is the word faith or belief in Acts 241? What? Is the word faith there?

02:36:13

Not there either. Why am I asking this?

02:36:19

Because I asked him a very specific question. Is it a formula for salvation?

02:36:27

That's what I asked him. And he said, yes.

02:36:33

If it's a formula for salvation, then faith has to be in there.

02:36:42

He fell for it last time, and he fell for it this time. I'm trying to unmute him. I don't know how to unmute him.

02:36:53

Okay. Try this. Come on. Okay. There you go. Okay. Is everyone able to hear me?

02:37:00

Are all the Catholics? Okay. I'm asking him a question, and now what he wants to do is talk to everybody else.

02:37:08

He doesn't want to talk to me. I'm asking him a question. Let's see if he can answer the simple question.

02:37:13

Is faith or belief, the word faith or belief in, written in Acts 238. Can you answer the question?

02:37:22

Is it in there? Can I discuss? Is it in there? Are you going to? Is it in there?

02:37:30

Is it in there? Are you going to? Is it in there? Is it in there? He's not going to talk,

02:37:36

Catholics. He won't allow me to talk. Is it in there? Yes or no? He knows that he's wrong.

02:37:43

No. Stop. He's not wrong. You're the one that's wrong. Oh, my gravy.

02:37:48

Let me tackle him. Let me tackle him. I know. Anonymous guy, is the word faith or belief in the formula for salvation that you said?

02:37:58

Acts 238 is a formula for salvation. I'm asking, according to your formula, which you said is a formula.

02:38:05

You said, yes, it's a formula. Okay. Is faith mentioned in that formula? Matt Slick, do you want to take a break for a moment and let's analyze the text?

02:38:16

Good gravy. Together. Hey, please. Cat, please keep quiet, okay? Great.

02:38:23

Anonymous guy, is the word faith or belief in Acts 238?

02:38:31

Well, if we analyze the text, then... If you can't answer it, you're going to move along. If you can't answer a simple question, we're not going to have a conversation.

02:38:41

I mean, come on. Is it in there? Yes, and let me explain why. Yes, and let me explain why.

02:38:46

Hold on. Yes, and let me explain why. Yes, and let me explain why. What's the

02:38:52

Greek word for faith? Let me explain why. I'm saying yes. I'm answering you by saying yes, and let me explain why.

02:39:00

Where's the word in there? Okay. Am I going to be able to explain?

02:39:06

Well, just show me where the word is. The fifth word, the seventh word. Are you going to allow me a chance to explain yes or no?

02:39:12

Where's the word? The word? Matt Slick, are you going... ...to allow me to explain yes or no?

02:39:20

Oh, man. Is the word faith or belief there?

02:39:26

Is it actually written there? Is it there? Just a simple question. Is it there?

02:39:35

Notice Catholics how the bad will is showing on Matt Slick's part, because I'm trying to discuss

02:39:42

Acts 238 with Matt, and he keeps muting me. He has control over this conversation.

02:39:49

He doesn't want me to actually go into the actual context of Acts 238, because if he did, it would show that Matt Slick's understanding of Scripture is false.

02:40:02

Show me the word faith. I asked a simple question. I didn't say is faith implied.

02:40:07

I asked, is the word there? You can't even think through this clearly.

02:40:13

You can't even answer the question. No, the word's not there, but it's implied. Well, let's talk about the implication there, but no, you can't even answer a simple stinking question.

02:40:20

Is the word there? Okay, to all the Catholics that's in YouTube and Facebook, the reason that Matt Slick is out...

02:40:30

Stop doing that. I'm asking you a specific question. I want you to stop talking to everybody.

02:40:36

I want you to talk to me. You are exceedingly rude. You're arrogant. You have displayed this many times in our conversations.

02:40:44

I want you to answer the question. You either answer the question or you're not going to talk at all.

02:40:51

Is the word in the formula? You said Acts 238 is a formula for salvation.

02:40:58

The formula does not have the word faith in it. This is why I'm asking you. Is the word faith or belief in the text there in Acts 238?

02:41:10

You answer the question or you're gone. The Bible says that we must have faith.

02:41:16

Absolutely. Okay. Anybody else want to try?

02:41:22

Anybody else want to have a question? Try something? I think the

02:41:28

Catholics have a class in their churches, how not to answer questions.

02:41:34

It has to be like that because it's just kind of Matt.

02:41:54

Yeah. Hello. Yeah. So is your point from Acts 238...

02:42:01

Wait a minute, Rick. People ask you... You had your chance. Why are you coming in now? When you are asking...

02:42:07

This is Richard Atkins, everybody. So why are you coming in now when you had the opportunity the whole time? How come?

02:42:26

When Acts 238... Notice guys... Is Peter answering what the people he's talking to at Pentecost have to do and he doesn't use the word faith in verse 28?

02:42:39

Aren't you just killing your entire argument, Matt? Richard, just answer the question. Is the word faith in the text there in Acts 238?

02:42:47

Is the word there? Gosh. This is so ridiculous.

02:42:53

Is it there? Is it there?

02:43:03

Matt? Rick, is the word faith there? Is it there? Is it there?

02:43:13

I didn't say he did or didn't. I'm just saying... And if he didn't use it, you're destroying your entire point.

02:43:19

No, I'm not. I'm just asking a simple question. Is the word faith there? That's all I'm asking. Why did

02:43:25

Peter not say explicitly the word faith in Acts 238? Why did he not use it?

02:43:33

Stop asking questions. Start answering questions. You're supposed to be an apologist.

02:43:38

Answer the question. Why did Peter not say faith explicitly in Acts 238?

02:43:44

It is not a formula for salvation. So faith is not required. Now let me ask you a question. Hold on.

02:43:49

Hold on. You just said that. You just said that. Let me correct you. Shut up for a second. Shut up.

02:43:57

I speak too fast. Let me correct that. Of course faith... That's what he said, Richard. He said that faith is not required for salvation.

02:44:04

Stop. Stop. Let me correct it, all right? Faith, of course, is required for salvation. What I'm asking you is, is the word faith or belief in the text right there in Acts 238?

02:44:16

Why can't you guys answer the simple question? It says in verse 41 that those who welcomed...

02:44:21

You can't answer the question. Why don't you answer the question? They had faith in Jesus. Of course they did. How difficult is it for you to answer the question?

02:44:30

Matt, I can answer them blind you. Why can't you answer the question? It's just a simple thing now.

02:44:36

Now it's just a point. Is the word faith there? Notice, everyone, that Matt will not allow me to answer the question.

02:44:44

Is the word faith there? The word faith is not there, but...

02:44:49

Oh, there we go. Good. Good. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

02:44:59

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

02:45:04

Folks, why did it take so long for these guys, one out of the two, just to answer a simple question?

02:45:12

What's wrong with them that they can't answer a simple question? Seriously, that's a question. Simple question.

02:45:18

I understand that. Are you going to stop me from explaining? Ask a question. You're going to stop me, right,

02:45:24

Matt? Ask a question. Okay, here's the deal. The word faith is not there, just like the word trinity is not in the

02:45:32

Bible. But we see in the context of Acts 2 .38 that the

02:45:38

Jews were stricken. They were heartfelt. They were stricken by what they did to Jesus Christ.

02:45:47

And in that moment, they asked Peter, well, what is it that we should do to get right with God?

02:45:53

And what did Peter say? Did he say what you Protestants believe, that all we have to do is believe and that's it?

02:46:01

We'll receive justification and salvation by only believing in Jesus Christ? No, that's not what

02:46:07

Peter said. He said that you must repent and be baptized in order for your sins to be forgiven.

02:46:15

Now, as you know, you cannot enter into heaven unless your sins are forgiven. You're reconciled with God when your sins are forgiven.

02:46:24

Therefore, you, Matt Slick, you do not believe in what Scripture says. You reject Acts 2 .38.

02:46:30

That's why you're behaving the way you're behaving, because you don't actually believe what Acts 2 .38 says.

02:46:36

Amen, Anonymous. Now, let me help you out. All right. You believe the

02:46:42

Scripture is complete and true, right? Absolutely. And Scripture actually proves the teachings of the

02:46:49

Catholic Church. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Okay, you had your piece. Now, while Peter was still speaking these words, the

02:46:57

Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the

02:47:05

Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Now, this is Acts 10 .45

02:47:10

I just read. I'm not done yet. And Acts 2 .38. Repent. This is what they say is a formula for salvation, folks.

02:47:17

Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

02:47:22

So upon baptism and repentance, that's when you're going to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10 .44

02:47:28

-48. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the

02:47:34

Gentiles also. So now they have the gift of the Holy Spirit. The same thing spoken about in Acts 2 .38.

02:47:40

For they were hearing them. Back to Acts 10. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. That means they're saved, obviously.

02:47:46

Then Peter said, surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit, just as we did.

02:47:52

And they ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Now, wait a minute. In Acts 10 .44 -48, the order is reversed.

02:48:00

They receive the gift of the Holy Spirit before they're baptized. So how do you reconcile the two?

02:48:07

Okay, will you allow me to answer the question or not? I'm waiting for you.

02:48:13

Okay, it says right there in the passage that it was assigned to the Jews so that the Jews would see that the

02:48:18

Gentiles were actually part of the calling to be called into the church of Jesus Christ.

02:48:26

Into the true church. And nowhere, not one place does it say that Cornelius and the others were saved by their belief, nor does it say that they received the indwelling.

02:48:39

In fact, the only place in the New Testament, it only says that those who receive water baptism have received the indwelling of the

02:48:51

Holy Spirit. Now, they did receive the gifts, but they didn't receive the indwelling. That's because you have to get water baptized to actually receive the indwelling of the

02:48:59

Holy Spirit. And it never says they're saved. So you, Matt Slick, you have to use eisegesis, which you do.

02:49:07

Many of you Protestants, you know, you always use eisegesis. You don't actually use eisegesis. We Catholics do, but you don't.

02:49:14

And you have to use eisegesis and go outside of Scripture to give your ridiculous opinion that, hey,

02:49:21

Cornelius was saved. Hey, he could go to heaven without receiving water baptism, but that's not what the

02:49:28

Bible says. The Bible says that you're saved through baptism. Now, you don't believe that. You don't believe that one is saved through baptism, even though the

02:49:36

Bible says so. And then you even denigrate Scripture. Mark 16, 16, you'll say, oh, well, that's not going to be part of Scripture.

02:49:43

So on Acts 238, go ahead. Now you're just showboating. So my question is, so, and I'm going to type it in here.

02:49:54

Did the Gentiles in Acts 10, 44 through 48 receive the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?

02:50:03

So? I just explained it to you. Did they? It's a yes or a no. Did they receive the Holy Spirit? They received the gifts of the

02:50:10

Holy Spirit. Okay, okay, good. So the answer is yes. Okay, and Acts 10, excuse me,

02:50:17

Acts 238 says, repent of each of you, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

02:50:24

And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So would you agree with me that Acts 238 says you receive the gift of the

02:50:30

Holy Spirit after you're baptized? But Acts 10, 44 through 48 says you receive the gift of the

02:50:37

Holy Spirit before they're baptized. Sure, we see that in Acts 10.

02:50:42

They received the gifts of the Holy Spirit before they got baptized as a sign to the Jews. I just explained that.

02:50:49

Wait a second, hold on a sec. So they received the Holy Spirit before baptism in one place and after baptism in another.

02:50:58

No, now you're putting words in my mouth. All I said was that they received the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It says both say, both

02:51:05

Acts 238 and Acts 10, 45 use the phrase, the gift of the

02:51:15

Holy Spirit. Both of them. Okay. Are you going to let me answer? Yeah, deal with it.

02:51:21

Deal with it. I'm going to stretch my back. Go ahead, deal with it. Stop whining.

02:51:27

Answer it. The thing is, you can receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit without getting water baptized, but you cannot receive the indwelling of the

02:51:37

Holy Spirit, nor can you be saved without water baptism, because the Bible says that only those who receive water baptism shall receive the indwelling of the

02:51:47

Holy Spirit and receive salvation. Okay, wait a minute. So you can't be saved without water baptism?

02:51:54

That's what the Bible says. It says baptism saves. Okay, hold on. Hold on. So you can't be saved without baptism.

02:52:00

Okay. So a baby who dies in the womb is aborted, goes to hell.

02:52:08

Well, personally. Well, hold on. Hold on. Let me answer that. Please do.

02:52:15

I believe personally, and you yourself believe with regards to Calvinism, because I heard you on your radio program.

02:52:24

You said yourself that you believe that these babies go to heaven.

02:52:31

Now, how do you reconcile that with Calvinism? Okay, I asked you a question.

02:52:39

We're not talking Calvinism. No, no. Wait. I'll explain. You said water baptism is necessary for salvation.

02:52:49

You said water baptism is necessary for salvation. I asked you about babies who are aborted.

02:52:55

Do they go to heaven or hell since they're not water baptized? You say it's necessary. So now what do you say? They go to heaven or hell?

02:53:01

Explain. I believe that all babies that, let's say they're aborted. Let's use an example.

02:53:07

Let's say there's a baby that's aborted. Calm down, Matt. I'm trying to talk to you.

02:53:13

Okay, just calm down. Look, let's say there's a baby that's aborted. All right? I personally believe that God water baptizes that baby either by sending an angel or doing it himself.

02:53:26

He doesn't say that a person has to water baptize. A human being has to water baptize that baby.

02:53:32

And we see all throughout the Old Testament angels and the New Testament angels being sent by God to do things for God with regards to human beings.

02:53:43

Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay. You gave me an answer. Now you're pontificating. Stop interrupting me.

02:53:49

What's the deal? The deal is you just go on and on and on. I ask simple questions.

02:53:56

Give me a simple answer. You are so difficult to work with. You say that you believe

02:54:01

God baptizes a baby in the womb? Are you saying it's impossible for God?

02:54:07

Are you saying it's impossible for God to bring water to someone?

02:54:14

When he says himself to get water baptized. It's like asking, is it impossible for God to put a chocolate ice cream factory on Jupiter?

02:54:22

Is it Matt? Is it? So therefore it can happen, can't it? That's the kind of question you're asking. I'm asking you to give me a real reason why we should believe your position.

02:54:31

Show me from scripture where it says God will baptize a baby in the womb in order they can be saved.

02:54:37

You're going into the ridiculous in order to justify your position. It's ridiculous. You're making stuff up.

02:54:44

You say I is a jeet. And yet, wait a second, Matt. You said the exact same thing on your radio program.

02:54:54

You said you believe that all babies go to heaven. Explain that with regards.

02:55:00

What else did I say about that? What else did I say about that? What else did I say about that? Say it.

02:55:07

Why did I say that? I want to hear your explanation. Come on.

02:55:12

Why did I say I believe that? Well, tell us. You're the one who's quoting me.

02:55:19

Tell me. Why do I say that? I don't remember, but it doesn't conform with Calvinism because I've heard plenty of Calvinists say that.

02:55:28

My child died in my arms, Akins. My child, my son died in my arms, literally.

02:55:36

He literally died in my own arms. Literally. The baby that my wife and I bore died in my arms.

02:55:45

I literally held him in my arms and heard his very last heartbeat.

02:55:52

And based on Calvinist theology, you cannot know, and I'm sorry to say this, you cannot know based on Calvinist theology that he went to heaven.

02:55:59

That you believe he went to heaven. Let me finish. And I tell people on the radio.

02:56:05

I say, because of this, I cannot claim to be objective. Because of this,

02:56:12

I don't say that I have any great answer. I give theological positions. This is what

02:56:17

I say. You are so callous. You are so rude. You are so lost.

02:56:25

You listen to one part of what I say and you ignore the other. I have repeatedly stated on the radio about the baby's thing.

02:56:33

That I've had to literally carry the body of my son to the grave. Literally dying in my arms.

02:56:38

And I'm not objective. And that's why I hold a position. You have no compassion.

02:56:47

You have nothing. This is the fruit of your religion. This is the fruit of your work.

02:56:53

You have none. You have none. You come up to me and you say to me.

02:56:59

You say to me that I'm guilty of reading any of the scriptures. You're the one telling me. That God's baptizing babies in wombs now?

02:57:07

You have got any. Where did you get this? Out of the book of Deuterectomy? The second Moroni? Where did you get this?

02:57:14

Show me this. John 3, 5. John 3, 5. John 3, 5. Okay. John 3, 5 is baptizing babies in the womb.

02:57:23

John 3, 5. Truly, truly, I say, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

02:57:29

Okay? That's about being baptized in the womb? Well, it makes very clearly that nobody can enter heaven unless they're water baptized.

02:57:41

Does it say water baptized there? Yes, it does. It says water.

02:57:47

I said, does it say water baptized? Well, if you read all the early church fathers, even those that studied directly under Jesus as apostles, they themselves in their own writings claim that John 3, 5 is referring to water baptism.

02:58:01

Does it say water baptized in the verse? I just answered you.

02:58:09

Let me help everybody else out. No, it doesn't say it. So that means you're reading into the text.

02:58:15

What isn't there? No, I'm going by what the early Christians believed. You don't believe what the early

02:58:20

Christians believed because you're one of the New Age Protestants. You're part of a New Age religion. I'm a

02:58:27

New Age? That's awesome. I'm a New Age Protestant? You're a

02:58:32

New Age. Okay. You're into New Age spiritualism because you don't believe as the early Christians believed.

02:58:39

So I'm in the way. Say it again. I'm in a New Age what? You're into New Age spiritualism,

02:58:45

New Age religion, because you don't believe as the early Christians believed. Because when we look at their writings, they all unanimously believe that John 3, 5 was speaking of water baptism.

02:58:56

Have you read all of the church fathers? Well, all of the church fathers that actually spoke about John 3, 5,

02:59:04

I have read. And they all claim that it's speaking of water baptism. You've read all the church fathers, so you know everything.

02:59:11

Let me finish. So you have read all the church fathers. If I'm wrong,

02:59:16

Matt, then why don't you tell us of one church father that claimed that John 3, 5 was not speaking of water baptism.

02:59:26

So you want me to, from memory, all the church fathers post -Nessian, anti -Nessian about John 3, 5, and actually answer that question.

02:59:36

That's what you want me to do? Have you noticed, Matt, Ephesians 2, 8 through 9 and Titus 3, 5?

02:59:49

Hold on. Before you go there, Clement of Rome died in 110. And we too, being called by his will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our wisdom or understanding or godliness of works which ye have wrought in holiness of heart.

03:00:04

That's Titus 3, 5 right there. But that by faith through which from the beginning almighty

03:00:10

God has justified all men. That's right. Faith. Absolutely. Hold on. Let me finish. Faith.

03:00:15

Initial justification through water baptism. That's not what it says. I can explain it for you. That's not what it says.

03:00:21

Polycarp says this. By grace ye are saved. You're being rude.

03:00:27

You're being rude. You're being rude. Polycarp says, and he died in 150, most people think.

03:00:35

By grace ye are saved not of works but by the will of God through Jesus Christ. If we please him in his personal hope, we shall also receive.

03:00:42

I was reading. Can I read this? Can I just read this? Now I'm going to read Marius Victorinus.

03:00:50

Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith.

03:00:57

He was born in 280. The mystery was enacted at this time of our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation.

03:01:03

Should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ? For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith.

03:01:12

Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too.

03:01:18

If we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous.

03:01:26

Hey. Yeah, you said every. Now you've narrowed it, you know, unfairly.

03:01:32

You narrowed it way down, which, you know, that's just a tactic. But obviously the church fathers don't always agree with you.

03:01:39

And you should stay away from the church fathers because I have a saying. I actually took him out of context because I could show you that they actually.

03:01:47

Yeah. Yeah. You did show you something. Look, I'm going to show you something. I want to show you that you don't believe the word of God.

03:01:54

See, their definition of faith is different from your definition of faith. That's how you're taking them out of context.

03:01:59

Yeah. I just read the Catholic definition of faith. Not the Protestant. No, he doesn't.

03:02:05

No, of course. So they're not Protestants. Protestants came about 500 years ago. Catholic Catholic.

03:02:12

Oh, yes. They're Catholic. It's only 500 years old. Is that what you think? You think our theology is only 500 years old?

03:02:20

Really? No. Some of it is less than 500. It's only 100. Some of it is just 50.

03:02:25

Some of it is 30. OK. All right. Let's see how you go then.

03:02:31

When did Joel Osteen create his false religion? You ready? What was it, like 15 years ago?

03:02:37

Are you ready? They just bring it up right. Are you ready? Let's see.

03:02:44

Let's see. Let's see if you really believe the word of God. You say you do. All right. I've got a verse for you.

03:02:50

I'm going to put it in the text there. Notice everyone how he wants to run away from Acts 238.

03:03:00

Acts 238, I asked you a question which you can't answer. In Acts 238, it says that gift of the

03:03:06

Holy Spirit is received after baptism. In Acts 1045, the gift of the Holy Spirit is received before baptism.

03:03:13

And then you went off to all this big tirade about stuff. And I asked, what's his name? I said, is

03:03:18

Acts 238 a formula for salvation? He said, yes. And I ask you the same thing. You seem to certainly affirm the same thing.

03:03:25

But then I show you something that contradicts your position. And what you do is you go off some tirade, off topic, and start going into Mark.

03:03:32

Well, Matt, you yourself on your own website. You're one of the true fathers too. And then you went to John 3, 5.

03:03:40

Calm down. Don't tell me to calm down. Don't tell me to calm down. I don't need to be patronized by you.

03:03:46

On your own website, you said that the gifts of the Holy Spirit can receive at different times.

03:03:51

It can receive when one gets baptized or when one believes or when one later on after baptism, much later after baptism.

03:04:01

That's what the Bible says. You yourself on your own website said that. That's what the Bible says. That's why I said it. Acts 238,

03:04:07

Acts 1044 -48. Hey, I absolutely agree with you. But gifts of the

03:04:13

Holy Spirit is a matter. It has nothing to do with salvation. So then

03:04:18

Acts 238 is not a formula for salvation, is it? Well, if receiving gifts of the

03:04:24

Holy Spirit is a matter of salvation, then you have to provide us an explicit passage from Scripture where it says that those that receive the gifts of the

03:04:34

Holy Spirit are saved. So now show us those passages. Is Acts 238 a formula for salvation or not?

03:04:43

Notice, everyone, he's not showing us those passages. Notice how you are asking very specific, narrowed questions that don't even exist as a sentence or something like that in Scripture.

03:04:51

It's what you do. Let me ask you, is

03:04:58

Acts 238 a formula for salvation? Yeah, I already answered you. I already answered you that it is absolutely a formula for salvation.

03:05:08

If it's a formula for salvation, then why is it reversed in Acts 1044 -48?

03:05:15

Well, you're making a claim that it's reversed. I already explained to you it's not reversed because it says right there just before Acts 238 that they were stricken by what they did to Jesus Christ.

03:05:27

And they asked Peter, what must they do to receive salvation, to get right with God, which shows at that point that they became believers.

03:05:36

So therefore, Peter is calling on believers to repent and be baptized. Obviously, he is not calling on unbelievers because the repentance of unbelievers would be meaningless.

03:05:49

In Acts 238, the gift of the

03:05:56

Holy Spirit is received after… No, we already got past the

03:06:01

Holy Spirit thing. I already proved that it has nothing to do with salvation. Yes, I did. I already posted the passage where it says you can get the

03:06:13

Holy Spirit after salvation. You couldn't do it. Acts 1044 -48 has nothing to do with salvation?

03:06:20

It's not in Scripture. No, no, no, you admitted it's not in Scripture. So we're not going to go by what

03:06:26

Matt said. Wait, wait, wait, wait, what are you talking about? Are you saying Acts 1044 -48 is not about being saved?

03:06:34

Does it say that they were saved? Yes or no? No, it doesn't say that they were saved.

03:06:41

It doesn't say those words. We can't go by what Matt Slick says, we got to go by what Scripture says. And Scripture doesn't say that they were saved.

03:06:48

I love that. We got to go by what Scripture says, right? I'm with you. I'm with you, brother. That's good.

03:06:53

So let me ask you. They are hearing them speaking in tongues and exalting God, which is a gift of the

03:07:00

Holy Spirit upon the Christian church. And Christians indwelt by God, 1 Corinthians 14.

03:07:05

Are you telling me then that the people here, who, according to the text, who have received the

03:07:11

Holy Spirit, just as Peter said that he had received the Holy Spirit, and they're speaking in tongues and exalting

03:07:16

God, and you're saying they're not saved? Well, the Scripture doesn't say they're saved, does it?

03:07:22

Is any word in Acts 10 say that they're not saved? Yes or no? Are you saying they're not saved? Any word in Acts 10 say that they're saved?

03:07:28

Yes or no? It doesn't say that. It doesn't say the words they are saved. I'm asking you. Okay, then you cannot say they're saved.

03:07:34

I'm asking you. Are they saved or not? They're speaking in tongues and exalting

03:07:39

God. I'm asking you. Well, by Scripture, we can't go by what Matt Slick says.

03:07:45

We've got to go by what Scripture says. I'm asking you. I'm asking you. Rick. Rick. I'm asking you.

03:07:53

He had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same as Peter had. They're speaking in tongues and glorifying

03:07:59

God. I'm asking you. If Peter was standing right in front of you,

03:08:04

Matt, and he said, Baptism saves, you wouldn't believe him, would you? I'm asking you a question here.

03:08:11

Mark 16. I'm going to ask you a question. Can you focus?

03:08:18

Can you focus? Peter also said it's water. Will you focus? I'm asking you a question.

03:08:26

I'm asking you a question. In Acts 10, 44 through 48, this is a specific question.

03:08:33

Peter was speaking. The Holy Spirit fell upon all of them. He said that they. Brother Diamond. Brother Diamond.

03:08:40

He challenged. Can you stop for a second? Can you stop for a second?

03:08:46

I'm trying to ask you a question about the text. Why did you run from that deacon? Why did you run from that orthodox?

03:08:56

You're just ridiculous. Matt, can you answer a question about Acts 10? Who's this?

03:09:03

Was the gift of the Holy Spirit in the beginning enough for them to become Christians, or did they have to be baptized as well?

03:09:11

And if they were baptized, this is Rick. So if they had to be baptized. Your voice changed. Hold on a sec.

03:09:16

Hold on a sec. You've been thinking it's me talking this whole time. Stop for a second. I'm going to mute you.

03:09:21

I got to respond to something. I want to make this clear. This lie has been going around.

03:09:28

I'm going to tell you exactly what the reason is. I left Thursday night when that wacko EO guy came in.

03:09:35

I'm gonna tell you exactly what the reason is. Yet again, which I have told Aiken's this.

03:09:40

I've told on the pages on Facebook and they continue to misrepresent me.

03:09:46

I can only assume that they're doing it on purpose. Here's the reason.

03:09:51

Yet again, I had been in an hour long discussion. Hopefully an hour long discussion.

03:09:59

I was interrupted by people who wanted to start talking to this raw guy. I sat literally and played with my phone for at least a half hour waiting for them to get done so that I could get back into a conversation.

03:10:12

I tried to get into the conversation and the Christians kept interrupting me. They kept interrupting over and over and over.

03:10:21

And I kept saying, let me tackle him. Let me do it. Let me do it. I kept trying to stop them from doing it.

03:10:27

And there's a reason I do that because I lead people a certain direction. I want them to go a certain direction and it's easy to do if I can simply have a conversation with them.

03:10:38

And so what the Christians were doing was interrupting me constantly. I was getting exasperated because of that.

03:10:44

When the EO guy was in, I finally had a chance to talk to a heretic where I really like talking to people in the

03:10:51

Catholic church and in the EO church. I really liked that. And the Christians kept talking and interrupting more.

03:10:57

Then I got upset because they would not let me do the thing I like to do and wanted to do.

03:11:03

That's what happened. Now shut up for a second. Just keep quiet. Keep quiet.

03:11:09

That's the reason. That's the reason I left. I went right downstairs and I talked to my wife.

03:11:15

She goes, what's wrong? I said, I'm so upset. These guys would not let me get in there and do what

03:11:20

I do. They kept interrupting me and wouldn't let me talk to this guy from the Orthodox church. That's what I said. You want me to go get her and have her repeat that?

03:11:28

Matt Yester, I don't know if he's in here, he and I talked on the text. After I could show you the text.

03:11:34

Want me to show you the text that we had from that night, from before? I can show it to you. Yet you guys will do nothing but call me a liar and say

03:11:41

I was afraid. It's not that I was afraid. I'm here talking to you, Aikens, and you're making yourself look bad.

03:11:46

It's no problem. I talk to you. I'll talk to others. They come in here. I've asked that diamond guy or the friend of the diamond guy.

03:11:52

Go tell him, come in here. Come into my radio show. Why is he afraid to face me? You guys.

03:11:58

Diamond's not afraid to face you. He just doesn't want to get on your venue because you mute people.

03:12:04

You don't give people a chance to speak. You have total control over the conversation. No. I asked you over and over and over and over and over again the same question, and it's on the film here, over and over, and you can't even answer a simple question.

03:12:18

So he had his opportunity, and he doesn't want to come in. And you are the same way.

03:12:24

You don't know what you're doing. And I asked you a specific question, and you can't even answer simple questions.

03:12:31

It takes five to ten minutes to get a simple answer out of you. Really? He thinks that you're me this whole time.

03:12:39

So that's why he's confused. We just spent two hours going back and forth on text where I asked him maybe three or four simple questions.

03:12:47

Who are you talking to? I don't have an answer. You, Matt. I don't have an answer? You didn't answer a single question

03:12:53

I asked on the text. You kept saying over and over again, give me three reasons for this, three reasons for that.

03:13:01

I'll give you three reasons. I never answered. We all have the script together, okay?

03:13:08

I have no answer. Answer this question to Anonymous. Ask him, answer his questions now.

03:13:15

He won't answer. Matt won't answer. That's how Protestants are. They're a bad will.

03:13:21

In Acts 10, answer the simple question. Was it enough just for them to have the

03:13:26

Holy Spirit, or did the apostles then baptize these? I don't know what you mean by is it enough? Was that it?

03:13:32

Was that they didn't have to be baptized? Is that what you're saying? Jesus told them to be baptized, so they got baptized.

03:13:38

What is the complaint with Acts 2 .38 about baptism? I don't understand your whole point here.

03:13:44

Maybe you should listen for a change. I have been listening. Step by step.

03:13:50

You ready? Ask me the question. I want to answer it. You ready? Go ahead. You guys are saying

03:13:55

Acts 2 .38 is a formula for salvation. Okay. You guys say that. I asked you if faith is in there.

03:14:00

It takes a half hour for you to finally say. So let me answer the question. I'm not done.

03:14:06

Go ahead. I'm trying to explain it. So I ask you that.

03:14:12

It takes way too long for you guys to give a simple answer, and you have the guts to say I don't answer you? That's ridiculous.

03:14:18

All right. So here's my question. Let me finish. Golly. And so in Acts 2 .38,

03:14:25

which you guys said is a formula for salvation, does not contain the word faith or belief in it. Therefore, it cannot be a formula for salvation.

03:14:32

You guys say that baptism is the thing that gets you the gift of the Holy Spirit. I then go to Acts 10 .44

03:14:39

-48 and show you that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given before baptism. It's only that point.

03:14:46

You guys say Acts 2 .38 proves that you only get the Holy Spirit after baptism.

03:14:52

We didn't say that. We didn't say that. Now you're putting words in our mouths. I apologize.

03:14:57

I apologize. I'm not trying to misrepresent you guys. I'm trying to show you that in Acts 10 .44 -48 that baptism comes after—my phone's going out.

03:15:07

I mean my thing. Hold on. That baptism comes after receiving the Holy Spirit.

03:15:13

If Acts 2 .38— No, not the indwelling. Not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does Acts 2 .38

03:15:19

say they were indwelt? Does Acts 2 .38 say they were indwelt? It only referred to those who were water baptized.

03:15:25

Does Acts 2 .38 say they were indwelt? Does Acts 2 .38 say they were indwelt?

03:15:30

No, not Acts 2 .38, but there's other parts of Scripture which speaks about those who were water baptized that received the indwelling of the

03:15:38

Holy Spirit. Quiet, quiet. Don't give me this inconsistent crap from you that Acts 2 .38

03:15:43

means indwelling but doesn't say it, and you ask me about it in Acts 10 .44 -48, it doesn't say it. Then you use one against the other.

03:15:49

You're so inconsistent. It doesn't say either one. It doesn't say that in either place. You only apply it to one.

03:15:56

You're so inconsistent. Hold on. I've got to switch. My headset's going out from the battery. Hold on. Matt, if you're going to claim that the indwelling of the

03:16:18

Holy Spirit occurs prior to baptism, show us the explicit verse in the Bible which says that.

03:16:26

Can you please give him a moment? He just explained he had to step away for a minute to fix his dying headset.

03:17:05

Okay, I don't know if you can hear me or not, Matt, but I can't hear you. I can't hear anything you're saying.

03:17:16

Okay, now you can hear me, right? Yes, now I can hear you. This thing lasted three hours.

03:17:23

It's wireless. Acts 2 -38, you guys says this formula for salvation.

03:17:32

If it's a formula, it needs to have faith. You say it's implied. Then it's not a formula. It's just real simple. Matt, are the people before talking to, are the people.

03:17:41

Baptism is not a requirement for salvation because we're justified by faith, and you have faith when you believe. You're not justified by faith when you go through faith and a ceremony.

03:17:48

You guys have ritualistic ceremonies as a requirement for salvation. Matt, think about how ridiculous what you're saying is.

03:17:55

Was Peter calling on unbelievers to repent and be baptized, or was he calling on believers? He was calling for the believers that are already believers.

03:18:03

Exactly, exactly. So he was calling on people that already had the faith.

03:18:09

You answered your own question. Of course, of course they already had the faith. I kept asking you, is the word faith in there?

03:18:16

And the answer is no. Therefore, it's not a formula for salvation. If it's a formula, it'll have the requirements of salvation in it.

03:18:26

Matt, you just answered your own question, and you just proved that faith, repentance, and baptism are required for the forgiveness of sins.

03:18:34

And you can't run away from that. No, no, no, no. We are justified by faith when we believe, not when we go through a ceremony of water baptism.

03:18:44

Oh, now we're going by Matt Slick. We're not going by Scripture anymore. We just left

03:18:50

Scripture, and we're going by what Matt Slick says. You're saying that when a man were to believe in Jesus Christ and trust in the

03:18:57

Lord Jesus Christ, he believes that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, he puts his faith and his trust in him.

03:19:03

Then why didn't Peter say that to the Jews? They were stricken of their heart, and they asked Peter what they must do to get right with God.

03:19:11

Why didn't Peter say what you're saying, Matt Slick? And this man who believes and receives

03:19:17

Christ, he goes across the street... Answer us if Peter didn't say what you're saying, Matt Slick.

03:19:23

Ask 237, Matt. The people ask what... All right, I had to keep him quiet.

03:19:29

Sorry, but he just won't even let me finish. He keeps talking over me all the time.

03:19:35

So I'm asking a specific question. This guy is so rude. A man believes and trusts in Christ.

03:19:43

This is a specific question. He trusts in the Lord Jesus. He prays. He asked Jesus to forgive him, and he believes and trusts in Christ.

03:19:52

He walks across the street to get baptized. In the middle of the street, he's hit by a car, and he's killed.

03:20:01

I can answer that. Am I on mute, or am I able to answer that? Let me finish.

03:20:07

Now, Aikens said that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

03:20:14

He even went so far as to say somehow babies are baptized with water in the womb.

03:20:21

That wasn't me, Matt. Before he gets water baptized... That was me.

03:20:28

Anonymous said that. Let me finish. So, according to Aikens, he cannot go to heaven or be forgiven because he was not water baptized when

03:20:38

Aikens himself said water baptism is necessary for salvation. So how do you respond?

03:20:43

That's not true. Ed, that's not true. Catholic teaching also includes baptism by desire.

03:20:51

So if you can't be baptized with water... Baptism desire is false. So water baptism... Baptism desire is a false Vatican II, false teaching.

03:20:57

Okay. So, water baptism is not necessary for salvation, according to Aikens.

03:21:09

That's not Catholic teaching. What Aikens just said is not Catholic teaching. Okay. So then, does the person who trusted in Christ on his way to get baptized, does he go to heaven or hell when he's killed?

03:21:24

Not water baptized. He'll go to hell unless he was water baptized because it says in the

03:21:30

Scriptures that water baptism saves. Okay. So you're saying then he goes to hell, even though he's trusted in Christ and received

03:21:37

Christ as Savior. Well, here's the question, Matt. Do you believe in the

03:21:42

Scriptures or don't you? Yes, I do. So I believe... Okay, well then... ...and therefore the man has trusted

03:21:49

Christ. He's justified by faith. And he goes to get baptized. But you're saying, no, it's not enough.

03:21:55

Well, Matt, is it impossible for God to bring water baptism to someone that believes, to a true believer, yes or no?

03:22:04

No, it's not impossible. Okay. So then, therefore, if someone is a true believer, and God would know who the true believers are, right?

03:22:12

So therefore, if it's not impossible for God to bring the faith to a true believer, then is it impossible for God to bring water to a true believer?

03:22:22

It's not impossible for God to bring water to a true believer. You've just answered the question.

03:22:29

So the man is a true believer, as I defined it, and he goes across the street to be water baptized, and he's killed before he gets water baptized.

03:22:37

Does he go to heaven or hell? Then that means he's a true believer. God would know, right?

03:22:45

Yeah. So your criteria is that no matter what, he has to be water baptized because God's going to bring it to him.

03:22:57

So when you receive... Well, I'm simply saying that Scripture says that baptism saves, and it also says that only those who are water baptized shall get into heaven.

03:23:06

So that means God, who is all powerful and all knowing,

03:23:13

He knows who it is that... And I don't know why you would be against this being a Calvinist because you apply the same type of...

03:23:23

What's the word for it? The same type of theology with regards to faith. So I don't know why you wouldn't use this in regards to bringing water to a true believer if you believe that God would bring the faith to somebody that would be open to the faith.

03:23:40

To the elect. If you believe that God preordained the elect, then are you saying that God would bring the faith to the elect but not water baptism?

03:23:55

Yes. Oh, you're saying He would bring the faith, but He would not bring water baptism.

03:24:01

That's what you're saying? Let me explain. Let me explain my position. Not all of the elect who are justified get baptized.

03:24:11

Some people die in their death beds. Show us from Scripture.

03:24:18

Show us from Scripture that says what you just said. Let me finish.

03:24:24

You asked me about my Calvinism. I'll tell you about my Calvinism. No, I don't care about your Calvinist theology.

03:24:29

Show us from Scripture what you just said. Proof from Scripture. Why did you bring it up? Well, is

03:24:35

Calvinist outside of Scripture? Are you admitting that Calvinism does not agree with Scripture?

03:24:42

Show us from Scripture, Matt. You brought up my Calvinism. I'm trying to answer you according to what

03:24:49

I believe, according to Calvinism. Oh, so not according to Scripture, according to Calvinism.

03:24:55

I see. And then when I try and answer you, you say you don't care about my

03:25:01

Calvinism, but you're the one who asked about it. Well, hey, you're the one that says that Calvinism agrees with Scripture.

03:25:09

So show us the Scripture. Do you want me to answer? Do you want me to answer?

03:25:16

Yes. Back up your claim to the Scripture. Give me the specific question you want me to answer.

03:25:23

You said that someone doesn't need water baptism in order to get saved. Show us in Scripture where it explicitly says that someone does not need baptism in order to receive salvation.

03:25:36

You want that sentence? That's your claim. That's what you just said. That's what you just said.

03:25:43

Was Moses saved? Well, did Moses go to heaven when he died?

03:25:50

Okay, I'm just asking you, was Moses saved? Did Moses go to heaven when he died?

03:25:56

Brother, come on. Was Moses water baptized? Did Moses go to heaven when he died?

03:26:04

Yes or no? If he didn't go to heaven when he died, then can you say that he was saved? You know as well as I that Moses didn't go to heaven when he died.

03:26:17

In our past debate, you agreed that all those prior to Jesus ascending into heaven did not go to heaven.

03:26:24

Can you answer simple questions? Was David, Moses, Isaiah, were they saved? Did any of them go to heaven when they died?

03:26:30

I asked you if they were saved. Are they saved? What's the definition of salvation?

03:26:37

That they're not going to end up going to hell. They're going to end up going to heaven. Okay, so did any of them go to heaven when they died?

03:26:44

At the very moment they died, did those in the Old Testament go to heaven? Sacrifice of Christ hadn't been offered yet.

03:26:51

They probably went to Abraham's bosom. And then later, according to... Exactly. You just answered... And then according to...

03:26:57

They didn't go to heaven because they weren't saved. But you said that in order to be saved, they should go to heaven and they did not go to heaven.

03:27:03

Let me finish. And according to Acts chapter 4, Christ let captive a host of captives as he ascended on high.

03:27:11

The general theory is that he took those pre -Christ crucified saints and they brought them up to heaven at that point.

03:27:18

In Acts 17, Moses and Elijah are talking to Jesus in the transfiguration.

03:27:25

Now, are their sins forgiven? Let me ask you. Were Moses and Elijah and Isaac and Abraham, are their sins forgiven?

03:27:34

Sure. You know, personally, I believe that those in the Old Testament, their sins were forgiven. But it wasn't forgiven in the sense that they could...

03:27:41

Let me finish. You asked me a question. Allow me to answer, Matt. Were they baptized? You asked me a previous question.

03:27:50

I want to answer it before I answer any other question. Were they baptized or were they saved without being baptized? No, no, no.

03:27:55

I'm not going to answer any other questions. I want to answer your first question. I'm getting tired and trying to get a sore throat.

03:28:09

I got them muted. Okay, guys,

03:28:16

I think I'm going to do... Akin's left. I think what

03:28:21

I'm going to do is kind of just wrap it up. Now, what they're going to do is claim victory.

03:28:31

But you can see... You can see...

03:28:36

I will watch. This is how it works, guys. You can see what

03:28:43

I have to do on a regular basis. This kind of thing is pretty normal for me. And whenever I meet the lost, like these guys, they're obviously lost, adding works to salvation and not trusting in Christ alone, but in their ceremonies and their works.

03:29:01

False doctrines. Whenever I encounter them, what happens is... I'm going to go and spend time with my wife pretty soon here.

03:29:09

Really, I've been going for almost three and a half hours. My voice is starting to go. And if I continue much longer, then

03:29:16

I'll have a head cold because it agitates... I've done this before. And then I get mucus for days. I don't want to have that happen.

03:29:24

So anyway, what will happen is you'll say, I couldn't answer them. Now, folks, let me ask you, was

03:29:29

I answering him? And was I trying to answer? And were they answering me? Put some comments in there.

03:29:37

Were they really answering me? Or were they being extremely resistant? What do you think?

03:29:43

Just type it in in the chat there. And then what's going to happen is they're going to go their separate ways and claim victory.

03:30:01

Hello. That's right, Gary. Hello. That's right. Hello. That's right. Can you show me a scripture where it says to jump out of a plane with no parachute?

03:30:12

No. They are a mess. Answer questions with questions.

03:30:17

Highly evasive. I've been extreme. Well, I lost my cool a couple, three times.

03:30:23

Hey, Kiefer, how are you? Can you hear me? Yes. Who are you?

03:30:30

Well, I'm the gentleman who's called into your show a couple of times. Are you

03:30:35

Catholic or what? Yes. I'm going in ten minutes because I've been doing this for almost three and a half hours nonstop.

03:30:46

Actually longer. It's been three hours already. I've been on for three and a half hours. I started before the hour.

03:30:52

What's your quick question? Well, I guess my question is this. I know you're sort of against the economy of salvation.

03:31:00

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. You're against works in the economy of salvation, if I'm not mistaken.

03:31:09

Yes. It has no place whatsoever in one's salvation. In getting saved or staying saved.

03:31:15

Right. So how would you respond to the following passage?

03:31:22

What passage? For he who pays his deeds to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor will give eternal life.

03:31:32

Whilst for those who are self -seeking seek for wickedness there will be wrath and fury. I would suggest start reading

03:31:38

Romans chapter two, which is clearly in the context of salvation.

03:31:45

Particularly final judgment. To what? Onward. What's your specific question about what specific verse?

03:32:00

Verse six. He will repay according to each one's works. Okay. You ready?

03:32:08

Go ahead. All right. If you look at verse 17, it says, if you bear the name Jew and rely upon the law and boast in God and know his will and prove the things that are essential being instructed on the law.

03:32:18

So what he's doing here is talking about the Jews and the Jews. What they were doing is mocking the unbelievers. In Romans chapter one, verses 18 through 31, what he's essentially is doing is condemning the unbelievers, the

03:32:29

Gentiles. And then if you go to Romans chapter two, verse one, he says, therefore, you Jews have no excuse.

03:32:35

Every one of you who passes judgment for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself or you judge practice the same things. So what he's doing, he's talking to the

03:32:42

Jews who are trying to be righteous before God by their law. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such thing, those evil things.

03:32:50

But do you suppose, oh man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things that you do yourself the same thing, you'll escape judgment?

03:32:57

Do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? He's talking to the

03:33:03

Jews who are under the law. Because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you're storing up wrath for yourself.

03:33:12

I'm reading the context. One moment. The Gentiles have no part in this whatsoever.

03:33:18

Let me answer the question. And the Gentiles do, because... Well, you've been talking for a while.

03:33:24

I'm trying to get a... I have to silence him, folks, because he won't let me finish. He asked me a question I'm explaining, and he won't let me talk.

03:33:32

Does it have anything to do with the Gentiles? Yes, because I said he's talking to the Gentiles in Romans chapter one.

03:33:40

Then he talks to the Jews in Romans chapter two. I went to verse 17.

03:33:47

He's talking to the Jews. But the Jews were complaining that the

03:33:52

Gentiles were bad people, not doing good things. He says, but you...

03:33:59

Verse one. Everyone who passes judgment, you have no excuse. You judge another. You condemn yourself.

03:34:04

You practice the same thing. He's saying to the Jews, you're doing the same thing as the Gentiles. That's what's going on here.

03:34:12

This guy interrupts and says, it's not about the Gentiles. He's not listening to what I'm saying. And I answered him, and he objects.

03:34:19

But the answer was, I already said it. So listen. Because of your stubbornness,

03:34:26

Jews, unrepentant heart, you're storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, the revelation of God, and the judgment of God.

03:34:35

Who will render to each person according to his deeds? Does it mean that they're saved here? No. It's the judgment of their damnation, because some people get a lot of judgment and damnation, and some get less.

03:34:46

They're going to be rendered according to their deeds. Who is the ones who wanted to live by the law and be judged by the law?

03:34:53

The Jews. You will render to each person according to his deeds. It's the law he's talking about.

03:35:00

To those who, by perseverance in doing good, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life. Yeah. If you do good, you persevere in doing good, you seek for glory, honor, and immortality, you get eternal life.

03:35:10

Sure. That's the law. If you can do it. To those who, by perseverance, and what it says, but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey in righteousness, they get wrath and indignation.

03:35:22

Because what he's doing is talking to the Jews. He's saying, look, Jews, you're the ones who are saying you've got to keep the law in order to be saved.

03:35:29

You're the one who do that. Yeah, that's right. By perseverance in doing good, you seek for glory, honor, and immortality, you get eternal life.

03:35:35

That's right. But to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, they get unrighteousness.

03:35:41

He's laying the principle out that they believe, that they understand. That's there. Now watch. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the

03:35:51

Jew first and also the Greek. Now, this guy who interrupted me said, it's not talking about the Gentiles. Yes, it is.

03:35:58

Right there. The Gentiles and the Jews are now under the same boat, the same umbrella.

03:36:04

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also the

03:36:09

Greek. But glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also the Greek.

03:36:15

He's talking about the issue of the Jews condemning the Gentiles because they don't keep the law.

03:36:21

And if you keep the law, you're fine. Keep the law. Do the law. Keep it.

03:36:26

Notice what he does here. Watch this in verse 11. There's no partiality with God. For all who sin without the law will also perish without the law.

03:36:35

Now, wait a minute. Who's without the law? That's the Gentiles because they weren't under the law because they didn't believe in the law.

03:36:41

They didn't have that law revealed to them. Only the Jews had it in that context where ultimately they do. But that's another topic.

03:36:48

And all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. Aha. See what he's doing? Paul, the apostle, is setting up this case.

03:36:55

Yeah, you do right. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. You do wrong. You're going to pay. That's the satirological system that they believe in.

03:37:03

Now, for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

03:37:09

You see that, folks, right there? You should memorize this verse location. Excuse me. Romans 2 .13.

03:37:15

Not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified. The doers of the law.

03:37:23

You hear this, folks. I'm going to say this, and I mean it. If you keep the law, you can be saved.

03:37:31

If you keep the law, you can be saved. Okay? I believe that.

03:37:38

Now, I'm going to come back to this verse. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law, these not having a law are a lie to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else offending them.

03:37:53

On the day, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. It goes on to verse 17.

03:37:59

But if you better name Jew and rely on the law and boast in God, you're in trouble. That goes on. Now, look.

03:38:06

If, back to 13. Not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law. That's a standard, right?

03:38:13

Keep that law. Let's go to the law. Down a little bit.

03:38:22

It says in Deuteronomy 27, 26. Cursed is he who does not conform or confirm the words of this law by doing them, and all the people shall say amen.

03:38:34

You have to do the law. Cursed is he who lies with his mother. Cursed is he who strikes his neighbor.

03:38:40

Cursed is he who accepts a bribe. Cursed is he who lies with an animal, who lies with his sister. Cursed is he who distorts justice, who misleads a blind person.

03:38:49

Cursed is he who dishonors his father and his mother. Cursed is the man who makes an idol. It goes on.

03:38:54

There's a whole bunch of things that he's talking about here. And that's just one aspect of Deuteronomy 27. Paul references this.

03:39:01

Let me show you guys so you understand what Paul's doing. Because he taught Galatians 3 and he taught

03:39:08

Romans 2. Galatians 3 .10. For as many as are the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written,

03:39:17

Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written under the book of the law to perform them. What he's doing is he's quoting

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Deuteronomy 27 .26. Because there's curses that, in Deuteronomy 27. Curse this, curse that, curse, curse, curse.

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If you don't keep the law, you're cursed. And that's what Paul is pointing out in Galatians 3 .10.

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That you're cursed if you don't keep the law. Now let's go back to Romans 2 .13.

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The doers of the law. All right. How many of you are doing the law? Because the standard of the law is perfection.

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You can be saved if you keep the law perfectly because that's the standard of the law. That's what's going on.

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So when people bring this up to me, they don't understand the context. They don't understand what's going on in Romans 2.

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Is that Paul is making a case against the Jews for complaining about the Gentiles not having the law.

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Paul says you're guilty of the same thing. You accuse them and you're guilty of it. I quote Romans 2 .1

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a lot to people. You're guilty of the thing you accuse others of doing. Then it goes on. He says, yeah, not the hearers of the law are good, but the ones who do it.

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He even says, the Gentiles keep the law and they don't even have the law. You have it and you don't keep it. He's condemning them.

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And he's saying to them, it's the doers of the law who are right. But you don't even keep it. And they're the ones who knew the law.

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Are they saved by the law? Of course not. Because nobody can keep the law. That's the whole point.

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Okay. Can you hear me? Okay. My voice is really going to go.

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All right. Can you hear me? Notice how you avoid truth. Hello.

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Tell you what. Because they brought up, I'm going to do this just a little bit longer. I'm going to go to Acts 1

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Peter 3 .21. They kept saying, baptism now saves you. I'm going to give you another cough drop.

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Hold on. And I'm going to talk about Acts. I mean, 1 Peter 3 .21. Hold on. I'm going to pay for this tomorrow.

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All right. Yeah. Jesus get the law for us because we can't. And notice what these guys were doing.

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This is what they were doing in Acts, in 1 Peter 3 .21. They're quoting this over and over and over again.

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They're saying this over and over again. Baptism now saves you.

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Baptism now saves you. Notice what they did not do.

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Did not quote the whole verse. I'm going to do that for you. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.

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Not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a clean conscience.

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An appeal is an act of faith. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.

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Corresponding to what? Look at the previous verse. Once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through the water.

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So corresponding to that, baptism now saves you. Now my voice is starting to go crud. Corresponding to what?

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What saved them in verse 20? Folks, what saved them?

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What saved them in verse 20? Oh, my voice is gone. You guys answer?

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What saved them in verse 20? Can you hear me? Hello? You guys there?

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The ark saved them. Corresponding to that, the ark, baptism saves you.

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Not the removal of dirt from the flesh. What's it mean when it says baptism saves you?

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When it's in reference to the ark, not the water. Notice how

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Peter says not the removal of dirt from the flesh. He's not talking about the water.

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He's talking about the thing that they entered, the ark. The one door that God closed. Jesus is the door that entered the ark.

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And that's what saved them. They were saved by faith. The ark's the type of Christ. Baptism is a covenant sign.

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A covenant sign of what God has done. You see, when they quote this, they always take it out of context.

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They don't look at the whole context. They don't look at everything that's said. Okay. Hey, guys, my voice is starting to go now.

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If baptism was necessary for salvation, then anyone who dies without water baptism is damned.

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Babies. People who received Christ in their deathbed. And before they get baptized, they die.

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They go to hell. That would mean that they're not justified by faith. Would mean that they're not justified by faith in Christ.

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But by faith in Christ. And a ceremony performed. The best first they've got is this verse.

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First Peter 321. But it doesn't say that. What the baptism is referring to is the ark, not the water.

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You're absolutely correct, Matt. It's referring to the ark. Okay. So.

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If it's referring to the ark. It's not referring to the water issue of baptism. Which is why

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Peter then says. Not the removal of dirt from the flesh. It's not that issue of the water on the flesh.

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He's talking about something different. Hey, guys. My voice is starting to go.

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I got to go. Okay. Yeah. So I'm out of here.

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It's been almost four hours for me. Because I started three hours and 50 minutes ago.

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And I've been going nonstop. And now my voice is starting to go. So I'm out.

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Okay. Can't keep going. Thanks. I hope I don't have laryngitis of tomorrow.

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Hopefully. I'll be okay. So anyway. Talk to you guys later. Okay. I'm out of here.