Doug Wilson and Dusty Deevers Try to Convince Keith to be PostMil

All right, everybody welcome back to your Calvinist podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey and as always I am your Calvinist and I have today with me two gentlemen.

You are he is the Calvinist.

I'm sitting here with.

I am the Harbor Freight Doug Wilson.

It says it on my name tag.

You know, it's funny.

They didn't even ask.

I said, hey, can you put Harbor Freight Doug?

The guy looked at me goes.

Yes, I can.

So and I'm here with Dusty Devers and I'm so grateful to be able to say that these two men I was able to best

in the cigar competition.

So did you even know that I didn't you didn't know we were competing.

There was a Twitter competition who is the favorite cigar smoking podcaster and I was up against you in the first round.

I was like, there's no way I'm gonna win, but I'm gonna definitely try.

And I won congrats, but I have no reason why other than in that moment.

God knew I needed cigars more than you did.

Okay.

I think we all know why you won.

You posted about 50 to a hundred times with each one of those Races

and I felt like it was worse.

It was a politically charged environment that I've never been in.

Hey, I'm not gonna lie because he was the he was hard because you didn't even try and I still

barely beat you and with him I was really like and he would post and he's like and

and and and and Joel with Joel and a bunch of Other guys like yeah, you're the best, you know, like go after.

Okay.

So anyway, I want to ask you guys to do something for me.

Because you neither one have been on the podcast before you're both post -millennial, right?

Yeah, is that correct?

I'm a non -millennial.

You know this because here.

We had our discussion.

I'm gonna give you both an opportunity to win me over to your to the post -millennial position.

Tell me your best argument for post -millennialism now.

I'm not saying I'm gonna move because I got a church to answer to.

I'll go first and then Doug can give the better answer, right?

You'll be post mill eventually.

Yeah, well and Billy Graham will be a Calvinist while he is now so.

Okay best argument that's it that's.

It's coming.

I don't think I'm gonna convince you right now.

Okay, maybe Doug will.

So here let's talk about definitions and terms.

Yes, sir.

So in the early church, but in the time of Athanasius and whatnot, the the police the positions

had not solidified.

There was a historic pre -mill position that Justin Martyr had but it's hard to tell Augustine and

Athanasius at times sound post mill and Triumphal.

Yeah, but it would be anachronistic to project our defined positions back on them.

Yeah, right.

So The the positions that we have the current dispensational pre -mill the

Historic pre -mill the a mill and the post mill are all modern systematic

Adaptations of the biblical and historical David.

Yeah.

All right.

So consequently there a lot of guys who say I'm optimistic.

I'm ill and I say yeah.

Well, that's postponed right.

You said I was a grumpy post mill.

I don't know if you remember.

Yeah, grumpy grumpy post mill.

He I said he was a he was a fancy a mill and he said I was grumpy postman.

So so for example Spurgeon was pre -mill, but he was optimistic pre -mill.

So most Dispensational pre -mills have to be pessimistic about the future course

of human history that's baked into the system.

Yeah, it's it's.

So all Christian positions are optimistic with regard to heaven and hell.

The good guys win at the end all Christians are optimistic in that sense, but dispensationalists are

historically pessimistic.

But pre -millennialists are not necessarily.

So Spurgeon was optimistic pre -mill, right and they're optimistic all male guys.

There's a book Israel in the New Covenant by Roderick Campbell.

He's all mill which I read when when I was becoming post mill and he was a big big

help to me Becoming post mill and I didn't realize until years later that he was on them

so so I'm not interested in arguing with people about the train schedules of

Eschatology if you believe that the kingdom of God has a future in this world That is

victorious that includes discipling the nation's and you fit it into an omil framework.

I don't care.

I don't even care if you fit it into a pre -mill framework like like Spurgeon did what I care about Is the

what's the use we can't do anything because it's all going to blazes.

So Which is what the dispensationalists inculcate and the pessimistic

omils do.

Yeah, right there there is a there's a gloomy kind of millennialism that I think pulls the

nerve of Aggressive gospel preaching and evangelism and missions.

So if I could borrow from the late great Gary North.

He said there's basically two positions Pessimism and optimally.

Yeah, and I'm an optimist.

Well, that's awesome.

And so now you are too.

Well, I I've said there was a you know, there was a lot more agreement than disagreement.

That's why we didn't have a three -hour debate.

We had a 30 -minute conversation and and James White tells me all the time when I talked to him Oh, yeah, when you got owned by

by Doug, I was like Yeah, but it's Doug.

I mean getting owned by Doug.

It's like getting beat up by Mike Tyson.

It's not a big deal.

It's not a huge deal.

Dusty.

I want to ask you a question to go along with this because I do want to get you in here.

When it comes to the idea of what things you're most optimistic about.

You're in politics you're looking at the world from a different lens than most of us because you're face -to -face with

people who are Making decisions that are making changes that are going to affect people's lives.

There's a lot of things.

I'm pessimistic about in the very near future.

We don't know what's gonna happen a week from now.

We don't know who's gonna be the president.

God knows and he's still gonna be on his throne on Wednesday.

That's the title of my sermon tomorrow.

God will still be on his throne Wednesday.

No matter who is in the in the White House, but what's something you are?

Optimistic about in in the in the future, Oklahoma.

Yeah, so in the short term, I'll give you a short term.

Long term maybe a short mid long.

Yep network in the short term.

I'm optimistic that One of them one of the moves that we see around our nation

is In young men, they're they're reacting against the the

line of the bill of goods that's been sold to them through these various fatalistic

philosophies.

Doug talked about them.

I talked to talked about them in my message yesterday.

They've been told that if they just had autonomy through You know shirking off the bill the

God's order then they will have the future that they want.

But these young men are seeing look what that led to is transing kids.

It led to Men and women's sports and in their and and locker rooms and

restrooms.

It's led to killing off kids.

It's led to destroying our future and and they're looking for something else and we see them

Really latching on to to men who will just act like a father figure to them.

Whether it's Jordan Peterson or or even Joe Rogan even Joe Rogan Andrew Tate and MMA

culture.

It's got something there of order and they recognize deep Embedded in them because they have a conscience and because the

law was written on their heart that they That everything they've been sold through these various

philosophies Are are bankrupt and they're suicidal.

There's Society societal suicide.

Yeah, and they they want something else.

And so what we're seeing in in the voting of these younger people is that they're far more

based.

They're conservative.

They're they're calling for people to have a backbone and a spine and what that means is there is a huge

open door in this in this Power vacuum for Christians to step in and say, you know what?

It's not about my power.

It's about the power of Christ and he has all the answers.

So I think in the short term We're seeing that in in polling data.

We're seeing that in voting data.

We're seeing that across the states in Groups like the Freedom Caucus ran a hundred they had a hundred

six candidates who won it out of a hundred and twelve or a hundred fifteen

and The Freedom Caucus is kind of the most real right, you know of all the groups that run.

So it's massive win massive upheaval in a lot of states where you're seeing grassroots candidates Who are

actually running and winning.

I was able to to really consult a whole lot of those and we're seeing a bunch of seats Flipped in numerous states that's

in the short term and and no matter what happens on on Tuesday in the short term

I do believe that people are getting very frustrated with the zeitgeist.

And they're there look that that can lead in a lot of different directions some very dangerous directions

but what it tells me is that of all times there is a huge opportunity

for Christians who apply the authority of Christ and the Word of God to all spheres and don't say

well.

There's this social distancing between the Word of God.

It only applies in the church, and it doesn't apply in the civil sphere in the midterm.

The the optimism is and and I guess this is long term as well.

We are going to see more and more Christians running for office.

I don't think that that what?

Me running for office and being so Strongly outspoken on Christian values and principles is

an anomaly.

I think it's it's I've taken Numerous calls from guys who are running we're going to see that happen

on a political level long -term.

Isaiah 9 of the of the increase of the peace of his government and of the increase of

his government there will be no end the zeal the Lord host is going to do this that's that's that post mill future

and One of the other things is at any point whether it's short mid or long -term

God can bring revival and he has his ways and means of Drawing worship out of the hearts of people

and we know that sometimes that through suffering.

Sometimes it can be through what's perceived as great wealth and that we have indulgence.

And that's where we've been largely that our indulgence has left us.

Recognizing that even when we had everything we could it was still vacuous.

So God can bring revival at any point and he's proven it and in history and I believe that more and

more people are recognizing that we were getting some of the leaders that we deserve and what we deserve right now is a

measure of judgment for the various Withdrawals of the church and men are starting to

speak into those and I think Pastor Wilson is one of the guys who's at the very forefront of this especially

not just with the the classical homeschool the classical school and homeschooling movement.

But also since 2020 God really pushed forward the reality that we had forsaken

the faith of our forefathers.

They had given us so much we had forsaken it and we're reclaiming a lot of what was already there and I just see

Bright hope for tomorrow, you know, amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Well brothers, thank you.

I know you've got other shows to get to.

I want to thank you both for being here.

Last question.

Doug what's the address of the Antichrist?

I can let our people know.

666 devil's way.

Well, thank you both brothers for being on one.

Thank you guys for watching again.

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My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

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