January 24, 2017 Show with Dr. Stephen Nichols on “A Time For Confidence” PLUS Mark Chanski on “Marijuana: Is Its Recreational Use Sin?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 24th day of January 2017.

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I have a lot to talk about before we introduce our two guests for today and their respective topics, but I will let you know beforehand that our guests are

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Dr. Stephen J Nichols, president of Reformation Bible College, and Mark Chansky, pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan.

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But before we go into a more in -depth introduction of them and their topics,

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I do want to say that I am praising God for the glorious time, the very blessed, the very...

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I can't even come up with more adjectives right now, I'm still flying high as a kite...

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from my time at the G3 conference, the very beneficial and fruitful time that I had there, as well as just feasting on such a wonderful banquet of spiritual nourishment that was fed to me by the speakers at this wonderful conference that was held from January 19th through the 21st, preceded by a fascinating debate between Dr.

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James R White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Dr. White debated

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Trent Horne of Catholic Answers on the theme, Can a

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Christian Lose Their Salvation? And I was actually hoping for a more specific theme that would focus on a

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Roman Catholic issue, or at least a central theme that separated the

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Church of Rome from the Protestant Reformers and their heirs, but Trent Horne at Catholic Answers insisted that the topic be

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Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation, which in reality is an in -house Protestant debate.

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But nonetheless, it was an excellent debate, I believe. Dr. James R White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, who obviously represented the historic

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Protestant position on that issue, did a phenomenal job debating

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Trent Horne. I believe he was clearly the victor, which was made most evident during cross -examination periods, which is actually when the truth shines brightest.

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But I can say Trent Horne was a formidable opponent. He was very polite, he was very, he demonstrated that he's a very intelligent man, a very well -studied man, he was very well -prepared, and there was no mean -spiritedness or ad hominem or violation of the debate rules, etc.

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So I was very blessed by that debate, and I'm looking forward to see more interaction between Dr.

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White and Catholic Answers representatives, including Dr. Trent Horne, and I am looking forward to seeing if I can also arrange debates with other apologists representing

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Protestant evangelicalism and Catholic Answers representatives. So let's see what the

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Lord has in store for the future in that regard. But I can say that this was such a blessed time of fellowship for me to be meeting for the first time face -to -face so many of you in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron audience who listened to my program, and some of you who

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I met have listened to the program going all the way back to 2006 when

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I first launched the program, and also some of you have been following the debates that I have arranged going all the way back to 1996, and I just was overwhelmed with encouragement.

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I was overwhelmed with gratitude to God in an overwhelmed sense that the

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Iron Sharpens Iron program is really filling a niche that needs to be filled, and I was so blessed to also meet for the first time a number of really powerful preachers and brilliant authors and men and one woman,

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Rosaria Butterfield, who are such a blessing to Christ Church. Meeting them face -to -face for the first time after having interviewed them on the phone, of course it was great to see my old friend

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Dr. James R. White again who I have known for many years and fellowshiped with in person having arranged so many of his debates.

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I'm a little tongue -tied today because not only am I overwhelmed with how blessed I was and still am by this debate with Dr.

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White and Dr. Horn and the subsequent conference, but also because I'm exhausted.

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I'm still worn out. I took the Amtrak there and back, which

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I would advise anyone listening never to do that on a very long trip over 14 hours if you're alone.

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If you have a friend, at least one friend or a couple of friends, then it's going to be much more tolerable for you because you'll have someone to speak with and the time will fly by faster.

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But it is not recommended, especially for trying to sleep when you're over six feet tall and obviously you can pay for a sleeper car, which

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I did not do. But this G3 conference that I attended also bore much fruit not only in introducing

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Iron Sharpens Iron to a whole host of new people who now know of its existence.

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We gave a way every single copy of World Magazine that had my full -page ad in it to people there and I think

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World Magazine gave me close to 2 ,000 copies of the current issue with my ad.

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So a lot of folks, if they remember to flip back and see that ad in there and hold on to that issue for a while, hopefully we will be getting a lot more new listeners as a result.

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But also something really extraordinary happened. I, God willing, as a result of this conference and meeting so many people there,

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I am going to be added, God willing, in February to the lineup of Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida.

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90 .1 FM Grace Life Radio and I believe

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I'm going to be following, immediately following, Todd Friel at least during one of the airings of Todd Friel's Wretched Radio broadcast.

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And not only am I going to be following Todd Friel on the air, who

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Todd Friel is a really phenomenal radio host and TV host and a real blessing to me personally, but they're airing me twice daily,

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God willing, if all goes according to plan on Grace Life Radio 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida and the surrounding counties. And I'll be giving you more details on who can actually hear that on the radio dial in Florida, but anybody can hear

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Grace Life Radio 24 hours a day, live streamed anywhere in the world at GraceLifeRadio .com.

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GraceLifeRadio .com is the website and they're going to be airing a pre -recorded version of Iron Sharpens Iron because the 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time slot is already filled. So I am going to be on 8 to 10 p .m.

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not only evening drive or should I say evening time 8 to 10 p .m.

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but I'm also going to be on the morning drive slot 8 to 10 a .m.

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which is prime drive time broadcast hours. I have been in the broadcast industry, radio broadcast industry, since the mid 80s and everybody knows who is involved in radio, whether it's

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Christian radio or any other form of radio, whether you are familiar with this industry because you work in it or have worked for it or you have purchased airtime from a station, you know that that 8 to 10 a .m.

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slot is a really priceless drive time. That is prime real estate in radio and Justin and Brandon Ellickson have saw fit to put

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Iron Sharpens Iron in that slot. I am so blessed. I'm so honored. I'm so grateful.

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It has really blown me away that they have chosen to do this and have very enthusiastically welcomed me to their lineup on Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida and live streaming at GraceLifeRadio .com

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where you can hear the program anywhere on the planet Earth, as I said via live streaming.

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We're going to be joined any moment by Dr. Stephen J. Nichols, God willing, who is president of Reformation Bible College, chief academic officer of Ligonier Ministries, Ligonier Teaching Fellow, adjunct professor of, or should

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I say for, Reform Theological Seminary, visiting lecturer at Westminster Theological Seminary's program at the

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John Owen Center in London, England, and the author of many books including Welcome to the

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Story, Peace Classic Readings for Christmas, A Time for Confidence, and volumes in the guided tour series on Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther, and J.

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Gresham Machen. He also hosts a weekly podcast, Five Minutes in Church History. Today we're going to be addressing his latest book,

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A Time for Confidence, Trusting God in a Post -Christian Society. During our second hour we're going to be,

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God willing, interviewing Mark Chansky, pastor of the Harbor Reform Baptist Church in Holland, Michigan, hermeneutics professor for the

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Reform Baptist Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, author of Manly Dominion in a

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Passive Purple Four Ball World, he's going to explain that title, and Womanly Dominion, More Than a

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Gentle and Quiet Spirit, and he's going to be addressing his recreational use of marijuana, a sin, but we are now getting contacted by our first guest today,

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Dr. Stephen J. Nichols, and welcome once again to the Iron Sharpens Iron program, Dr.

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Stephen J. Nichols. I'm sorry,

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I had you on mute accidentally there, Dr. Nichols. It's great to have you on the program.

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And Dr. Nichols, I already did introduce you before you got on the air with us,

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I should say, so our listeners already know all about your being president of Reformation Bible College and all of the other roles you have to play in various areas in the

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Christian world here, and I want our listeners to know something a little about Reformation Bible College.

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So what could you tell us about Reformation Bible College? Reformation Bible College was founded by R .C.

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Sproul, and in many ways it's the vision of the college he wanted to attend.

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He gave it its name, and I think a lot of our identity is bound up in our name.

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So the Reformation, and all that the Reformation stood for, this was a moment in the

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Church's life when, and certainly young Reformers had their flaws, but this was a moment in the

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Church's life when a lot of the pistons were firing. There was the restoration of the authority of Scripture.

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There was a centrality to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. There was the restoration of preaching, of congregational singing, of missions.

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Calvin sending missionaries to the shores of Brazil from Geneva. Luther is training students at Wittenberg and sending them all over.

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So, you know, we look back on the Reformation as this wonderful moment. It was also a moment where convictions mattered, and we look at this moment, and here we are in 2017, the 500th anniversary, we look at this moment as an opportunity not just to look back at what

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God did in the Reformation, but to look ahead and to say, just as there was a darkness in that moment, and the light of the gospel was shining into that darkness, so today we have a new darkness in our moment, and we pray once again for the light of the gospel to shine and to break forth.

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And so we get a lot of our identity from Reformation, and of course we're a Bible college, so we're about studying

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God's Word. This is the God of the true, the God of the good, the just, and the

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God of the beautiful. And so we see Scripture and theology as the essence of our curriculum.

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So we've been around. This is our sixth year. We're in Sanford, Florida. We offer a full bachelor's degree.

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We have a bachelor's in theology with majors in Christian thought and biblical studies and sacred music.

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We have a foundation year program. We emphasize theology, biblical studies.

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We have apologetics, of course, because this is R .C.'s college, and we're here in central

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Florida. Well praise God, and I hope that all of you listening who either are considering going to college yourself, or you have children or nieces or nephews or your pastors, and you just want to let your congregation know about the

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Reformation Bible College, we hope that you take note of that, and we hope that you contact the

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Reformation Bible College for more details at ReformationBibleCollege .org.

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And Sanford, Florida is truly a breathtaking area. I have been there myself, took a tour of the

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Ligonier Ministries facilities and St. Andrew's Chapel, and it certainly is a memorable visit to Florida, and I look forward to returning, and hopefully the next time

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I return it will be providentially when I can visit St. Andrew's for a worship service, because I have never at this point done that, and look forward to doing that at some point, because the folks there are some of my modern -day heroes of Christianity, not only

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Dr. Sproul but his co -pastor as well, and I relish that opportunity.

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I'm going to, before I even begin to question Dr. Stephen Nichols about his latest book,

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I just want to read a couple of the commendations for this book by two men who

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I very highly regard as prominent figures within the

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Christian Church in the 21st century. A man, first of all, that I've heard preach many times, who is such a delight to not only fellowship with personally, but also to hear preach and to read the many volumes that he has blessed the church with.

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Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, Teaching Fellow at Ligonier Ministries, he has said of Dr.

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Stephen J. Nichols' book, A Time for Confidence, A Time for Confidence has all the hallmarks we have come to expect from its author, an enviable grasp of history, shrewdness in analyzing our culture, and a deep sense that God's Word has lost nothing of its ancient power.

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Amid what may feel like the shifting of tectonic plates under Western society, and facing the danger of discouragement, we want

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Steve Nichols near at hand to point us to a safe place to stand. But he does more than that in these pages.

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Far from letting us lose heart, he shows us that the gospel gives us many more reasons for confidence than for despair.

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A Time for Confidence is both a tract and a tonic for our times. And as I said, that was

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Dr. Sinclair B. Ferguson, and also someone I have had the privilege of interviewing on this program,

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Dr. R. Albert Moeller, Jr., President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

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He wrote of this book, Christians are living in one of the most complex times in human history.

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Our culture is in the midst of a moral and intellectual revolution, the pace of which is unprecedented in human history.

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The moral reasoning that has stood as the foundation of Western civilization is being upended, and those who once stood out as voices of moral clarity are now ostracized as intellectual outlaws on the wrong side of history.

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But, as Stephen Nichols makes clear in this book, this is no time for panic. A Time for Confidence is a needed reminder that in the midst of the cultural revolution,

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Christians can be confident that our sovereign God still reigns over human history. Indeed, Christians can also be confident that the church militant will one day be the church triumphant.

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If you find yourself wavering in the face of cultural opposition, let this book spur you on to greater faithfulness and confidence in the reigning and risen

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Christ. Wow, those are two very powerful commendations that should give our listeners a bit of an idea of why this is an important volume that they should get a hold of.

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And tell us about what was the catalyst for you writing this book, A Time for Confidence.

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Like all of us, we sort of look around and we see this change. You know, it's mentioned there, and Dr.

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Mohler's, Dr. Ferguson's, they allude to it and address it directly. We find ourselves in this interesting moment of not only change, but the rapidity of the change is overwhelming.

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We think back just over the last three years, the change, and especially in the

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American scene, on cultural issues, whether that's the redefinition, the attempted redefinition of marriage by the

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Supreme Court, or changing attitudes towards same -sex or towards transgender issues.

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And when you have that happen, as Dr. Ferguson said, it's the tectonic plates are shifting underneath your feet.

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And so in looking at this, it just made me think, this is also a moment in which, as we see these cultural shaking -out moments, we can be reminded of what is important, what is crucial for us.

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So we don't have to cower. We certainly don't have to compromise and give up our moral convictions in order to get along with these new cultural standards.

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But instead, this really is a time for confidence. If we realize where our confidence needs to be placed.

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So I find so many times, especially as American Christians, our temptation is to think, well, our solution is political, or our solutions are methodological.

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You know, I remember growing up with the 70s and 80s and the sort of Christian America moment, and we had our guy in the

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White House, you know, and then you have the Christian celebrities, so whether they're the football stars or the athletes or actors who come to Christ, you know, those are the celebrities.

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And we think, well, as a church, we could sort of ride their coattails into the centers of culture, and that's how we promote the gospel.

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And what we're seeing in our post -Christian moment is that we were trusting in the wrong things.

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We were, you know, we certainly want to be politically active and engaged, we want to engage our culture, we want to celebrate those who come to Christ, but we need to realize that our confidence has to be in God, in his word, in the gospel, and we have to be careful of this temptation of looking to sort of earthly means, as it were, to accomplish kingdom purposes.

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Yes, this is where, if I can show my hand, if you will, regard to my theological persuasion once again on Iron Sharpens Iron, this is really where a firm belief in the sovereignty of God is so vital to really have the utmost confidence and peace of mind and fearlessness and courage, because if you know that God has written the story before the foundations of the world, and at the end he wins, and no man or group of men or no ideology or no army or no anything that is on this earth, no matter how powerful it may appear to be when it surrounds us, we know that God's truth will triumph still, as the great reformer

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Martin Luther said in his hymn, A Mighty Fortress. Isn't the isn't the fact that we know that God is in sovereign control over all things a primary reason we should have this confidence?

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This is where we have to start. We have to start with our view of God. You know, this is the prophet in Old Testament times who always comes along to the people of Israel, and they're caught up in all sorts of things.

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You know, here's a tiny little nation of Israel caught between these superpowers,

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Egypt on the one hand, Assyria on the other hand, then it becomes Babylon, then it becomes

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Medo -Persia. I mean, these are massive empires. Here's tiny little Israel. And the prophet comes along and says,

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Behold your God. You know, you think Nebuchadnezzar is something. You think Cyrus is something.

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The nations are a drop in the bucket. Behold your God. And so we have to come to grips with who

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God is. And once we understand who God is, as he reveals himself in Scripture, not this sort of God of our own making, that is a place for confidence.

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You know, as you were talking, Chris, I was just thinking about this in terms of the sovereignty of God, and it just really struck me, when you do, when you take that out of the picture, you really are left without hope.

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And then you have to put your confidence in these things. If we go back to the 400s, just as Rome was about to fall, right?

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So the barbarians are not only at the gate, they're inside the city. And Rome is about to fall, and there's a church father named

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Jerome. And Jerome sees this, and he thinks this is the end.

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He thinks, Oh, without Rome, what are we going to do? This is the end of the church. This is the end of civilization.

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And he literally goes into a cave outside of Bethlehem to die.

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And he spends his last years living in a cave, simply waiting to die, because he had put all his faith and hope in the

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Roman Empire. And he couldn't see how God was at work, and God is still on the throne, even though Rome has just collapsed.

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So yeah, I think what your instincts there are right. We need to have that view of God, and at the center of God is his sovereignty over all things.

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Amen. And the fact that we are to be confident not only in God, but the fact that we are to be confident in the

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Bible also plays a major role, because although there are things that God did not choose to reveal in the

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Bible, they are not crucial or essential for us, obviously, otherwise he would have revealed them to us.

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So therefore, since we know all we need to know is in his Word, that gives us further confidence, does it not?

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Because it removes a lot of the mystery that might have us paralyzed with fear.

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We have to have confidence in God's Word. You're exactly right. So this,

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I think, is a crucial issue for us in the modern world. If you go back to the 20th, the real challenge to the

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Church came from the sciences, the hard sciences. So this was Darwinian evolution.

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So you have Genesis 1 to 3 on the one hand, and you got Darwin on the other hand, and these are conflicting views.

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And to be a modern, you couldn't follow what a, you know, 2 ,000 -year -old, and if you go back to Genesis, a 6 ,000 -year -old book, 10 ,000 -year -old, you can't follow what that book says.

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You have to go by modern science, right? And so the pressure was there, and we saw it in modernism, we saw it in liberalism, and it was a direct attack on the

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Bible. And it was a way of saying the Bible no longer applies in the 20th century because of what we now know through science.

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As we come into the 21st century, those attacks are still there. We still have that idea that if you're going to be scientific and have a scientific understanding of the world, you can't accept the

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Bible. But we've added to it from the social sciences. So you begin to look at this. You look at the attack on gender.

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So gender is a social construct. That's what we're being told. We're being told that marriage is a fluid term and concept, and we get to define it, and we are told that homosexual behavior is perfectly legitimate expression of sexuality.

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Now go to Genesis 1 to 3, and you see an entirely different ethic, an entirely different standard.

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You see that gender is not a social construct. You see that that marriage is between man and a woman, and you also see that human identity is fundamentally in the image of God.

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And so what we have here is a question. Are we going to follow the Bible, and are we going to put our confidence in what it says, and that what it says is true, and what it says has authority, or are we going to put our confidence in what the social sciences and what the gurus of our age tell us?

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I mean, we've got to put this on, you know, there's the scientists, then there's the Oprah sort of culture that we live in, and I've heard, what does

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Oprah say? Oh, God is a God of love. Of course he's going to love everyone. Well, that's the

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Bible according to Oprah. That's the message according to Oprah. That's not what God's Word says. And so this is a real question for us, whether it's on a scientific level or on a pop culture level.

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Is the Bible authoritative for life in the 21st century, or do we set it aside and we say,

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I can't put my confidence in this book as a true book to guide my life? I think it's a real question.

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And for the Church, of course, there's only one answer to that question. We have to see

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Scripture as authoritative just as much in the first century, now in the 21st century.

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And we're going to go to a break right now. If you have a question for Dr. Stephen J. Nichols about our topic,

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A Time for Confidence, Trusting God in a Post -Christian Society, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dr. Stephen J. Nichols and our discussion on A Time for Confidence.

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That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the first hour is Dr. Stephen J.

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Nichols. We are discussing his book, A Time for Confidence, Trusting God in a

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Post -Christian Society. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Nichols, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

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chrisarnzen at gmail .com. We do have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, CJ, who asks,

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I have not yet read Dr. Nichols' book, but judging from what you two have already said, it appears that this book has no place for a pessimistic eschatology.

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Does Dr. Nichols care to share what his personal views of eschatology are?

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Wow. Talk about right out of the gate. You know,

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I've heard R .C. Sproul say this, and I'm just going to say this. I think at one point,

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R .C. said, at one point in my life, I've held every view. I can say the same about me, except probably post -millennialism.

36:55

Never been tempted to hold that one. Really? Because that would probably have been the logical assumption that someone might draw from the whole title of the book and everything we said.

37:06

Yeah. No, I have migrated. I had my dispensational roots reared on the

37:13

Schofield Bible and the Ryrie Bible, but I have moved off of that in these past years.

37:20

You know, you do the halfway house to the historic premillennialism, then you sort of take the plunge to all -millennialism.

37:26

It's just a nice, simple eschatology for me. But I think the issue of what she's addressing is a good one.

37:33

And, you know, should we be optimistic, pessimistic, realistic? And I don't think we should be pessimistic.

37:39

I don't think we...going into the cave, waiting it out, that's not the answer. And so I'm not there.

37:48

I think we need to be realistic, but I also think we need to realize, as Luther's hymn said, right, his kingdom is forever, and that's our reason for optimism.

38:01

Despite what our eschatology is, we have to recognize that God's kingdom is forever, and God's kingdom is unshakeable.

38:09

Amen. Well, guess what, CJ? Give me your full mailing address, because you have won a free copy of A Time for Confidence, Trusting God in a

38:18

Post -Christian Society by our guest Dr. Stephen J. Nichols, and we want to thank

38:24

Deborah Finnimore and everyone over at Ligonier Ministries and Reformation Trust for providing us with these books to give away to our listeners submitting questions.

38:36

So thank you, CJ, and please give us your full mailing address. We also have a listener in Runnels, Iowa.

38:45

Chris in Runnels, Iowa says, can you ask Dr. Nichols to expound a little bit what post -christian means?

38:54

Was our society ever really Christian, or did it simply reflect Christian morals?

39:00

Excellent question, because there is a debate even amongst conservative evangelicals, and dare

39:06

I say, even amongst Reformed Calvinistic Christians like you and I, Dr. Nichols, who disagree on the answer to that question.

39:13

But if you could give your thoughts on that. It's a great question, and it's not something

39:19

I'm going to, you know, go to the wall for, that this is a post -christian culture. So I'm happy to admit that there are different views on this.

39:28

When I use the term, let me try to explain what I mean and what I'm trying to mean in the book. This is a tricky question, this complex question on this business of a

39:38

Christian America. I think we have to be careful. I think we look back and see times of influence.

39:44

I mentioned the 80s and the Reagan era, and we could think of the influence that maybe evangelicals had.

39:51

I think we may be wise to think, was that more the myth of influence than actual influence?

39:57

And that may be some good assessments to be making. But what we could say is this.

40:03

We are seeing, I think culturally, and this is what I mean, again, by a post -christian society, we are seeing culturally a new barbarism.

40:13

We see it in the way in which, again, marriage has been redefined. So we see it on the level of the

40:20

Supreme Court. We see it in much of our pop culture. So all of us could say, as we look at what is mainstream media, there are things that are mentioned on a regular basis that if we even heard a hint of a decade ago, we would be blushing.

40:40

And they just become for consumption. We think of the way same -sex relationships have been mainstreamed.

40:49

So we see same -sex couples in commercials to get a loan from a bank or for a yogurt company.

40:58

Those are things that are different, and they're signaling a new standard, a new ethic.

41:05

Now, does it represent everyone in culture? Now, to what extent is that the minority sort of directing the majority?

41:11

All those are debatable questions. But I think what we can say is we are seeing a move away from standards and ethics.

41:20

I think we could throw into the mix a sense in which we have adopted this pluralism of our moment, and so, you know, formal religion is down, spirituality is up, and there is a new pluralism of our day, which also complicates things.

41:38

And then on top of that, even within the church, we see a slide away from biblical literacy, from theological literacy.

41:47

And so you throw all those things into the mix, and I'm seeing all of that as this post -Christian moment.

41:55

And as we move into this post -Christian moment, how do we respond? So I totally understand the question.

42:02

We have to be careful about being nostalgic and waxing, you know, for some bygone era that may or may not have existed.

42:12

But at the same time, there's an urgency to our day and a challenge to our day that I think we have to be aware of and we have to speak to.

42:24

Amen. And thank you, Chris and Reynolds Iowa, and you have also won a free copy of A Time for Confidence, Trusting God in a

42:32

Post -Christian Society by our guest Stephen J. Nichols, Compliments of Reformation Trust, the publishing arm of Ligonier Ministries.

42:40

And you mentioned pluralism. It is interesting that modern ecumenism, the fellowship, the religious and spiritual linking of arms of professing

42:56

Christians and those outside of Christianity, even sometimes extending all the way to those of pagan religions and so on, this was the backyard at one time exclusively of liberals and leftists and so on.

43:15

Today, more and more, you have those professing to be conservative,

43:22

Bible -believing Christians who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, claim to believe in the biblical gospel, who seem to be putting a higher level of importance on one's political views than they are on the gospel and are willing to bend what that gospel means to include,

43:43

I mean, I'm even astonished sometimes when I hear Bible -believing or professedly Bible -believing

43:48

Protestants tell me that they embrace some Mormons as their brothers in Christ and of course the more rampant situation is ecumenism with Rome where the dividing line seems to have been erased or at least made more dull and the

44:09

Reformation, the reason why the Reformation occurred has not changed and the problem that divides us still exists, does it not?

44:19

I couldn't agree with you more, and I have a chapter in this book on the confidence in the gospel and I start off that chapter by referencing the work of George Yancey, who's a

44:30

Christian sociologist, teaches at the University of Texas, and he's latched on to this idea of Christianophobia and he analyzes attitudes of culture towards Christians, and he has a wonderful book called

44:45

So Many Christians, So Few Lions, and of course that's a reference to the early church being thrown literally to the lions.

44:54

That's a great title. Coliseum, yeah. And in there he chronicles people's attitudes, and by and large the general populace thinks of Christians as ignorant, intolerant people, and that intolerance is because we claim, how dare we, an exclusive means to get to heaven.

45:18

And so the cultural pressure is on to soften that, because if there is one virtue in our culture today, it's tolerance.

45:28

You hear it preached all the time, from the time kids are little to their adult stage.

45:35

How many times are they hearing the message, be tolerant, be accepting, and accept all, right?

45:42

So to be intolerant is the number one cultural sin. It is a mark of a cultural pariah.

45:50

And so we as Christians, you know, we are not immune to peer pressure. We don't like to be on the outs, culturally.

45:58

We don't like to be marginalized, and so the temptation is there not simply to go into a cave and wait it out.

46:08

The temptation is there to compromise, and to compromise at this very identity of us as evangelicals, to compromise on the gospel.

46:17

And then we can make it like, this is more virtuous, because after all, God is loving. He's not going to condemn this religion or that religion.

46:26

He's big enough to accept the worship of these religions and direct it to himself, but that's a lie, and we cannot hold that.

46:35

But you see where it's coming from. This cry of intolerance in this, again, post -Christian culture, pluralism of our moment, well, does have an effect of causing

46:47

Christians to compromise on the gospel. And here's where we have to take our stand. We have to be loving.

46:53

We have to be kind. We have to realize that the gospel is offensive, but that doesn't mean that we be offensive.

47:01

But we have to recognize that the Bible clearly says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

47:09

And no one comes unto the Father but by me.

47:15

That's the biblical message, and we are not preaching the gospel if we do not preach that.

47:21

Amen. And even though there are exceptions of those who are hateful and bigoted that exist,

47:33

I mean, how can we forget the late Fred Phelps and his cult that still exists, the

47:38

Westboro Baptist Church, which is a tiny pimple on the landscape of Christendom, but seems to get a lot of airtime in the news and so on.

47:48

But you have people like that. You have some screaming fundamentalists who care more about very tertiary issues and external things, more about, it appears, the gospel itself.

48:06

And we who are Calvinists are not immune to having our own elements of people who are hateful and bigoted.

48:12

But by and large, the church seems to be too far in the other direction of compromising.

48:20

And don't you think a lot of it has to do with pragmatism? People who, even some who, perhaps

48:28

I should say even many today, who claim to embrace Reformed theology don't act like they believe in it because they think things like, we will never win these people to Christ if we do not become more and more like them and make them totally at ease with us.

48:47

We can never say anything that offends them, because if we do that, we will never convince them with our masterful abilities in speaking to them and trying to convey to them the the truths of Scripture.

49:05

We have to make everything as palatable as possible to the culture and world around us in order for people to be saved.

49:14

In an Arminian mindset, that actually may make a lot of sense, because if it is up to us and our cleverness and abilities to speak to convince people actually into the kingdom, sometimes even trick them into the kingdom, then you are going to be more prone to pragmatism, aren't you?

49:36

You know, this is why I enjoy conversations with you so much, Chris. Exactly right.

49:43

And you know, so what happens is, you referenced Luther's hymn earlier, Mighty Fortresses are

49:49

God. You know, there's a line in there where Luther says, did we in our own strength confide?

49:57

Amen. And so fill in whatever you want to put in there. Did we in our own methodology confide?

50:03

Did we in our own technique confide? How did he finish it? Our striving would be losing.

50:10

Like, we have to recognize that the power is not enough. In fact, as that hymn goes on, one little word, right?

50:19

And then Luther goes on to say, that word above all earthly powers. So we have to put our confidence in Christ in the gospel.

50:28

You think about, I think about this even with Paul. So here's Paul. He's in jail. He's in a Roman prison. And what does he do?

50:35

He preaches the gospel. And the gospel is powerful. So this is

50:40

Philippians 1, you know, the Praetorian Guard. I mean, you could not get a more antithetical group to the gospel than the

50:47

Praetorian Guard. And the gospel is known among them. And Paul, at the end of Acts 28, he's in prison.

50:54

And what is he doing? He's preaching with all boldness and without hindrance.

50:59

He's proclaiming the kingdom of God, and he's teaching with all boldness.

51:05

Because Paul knew that there is one thing that has the power to change lives, and it's the Word of God.

51:10

And we must put our confidence in the gospel. You know, I think we think that it's up to us.

51:17

We think it's up to our technique. I think we even wonder sometimes if there are people beyond the pale of the gospel.

51:26

The gospel will never reach so -and -so, because they're just so far gone. And all of that is indicating a lack of confidence in the gospel.

51:38

And we look at the pages of the New Testament, and we see Paul, we see Peter, we see the author of Hebrews.

51:44

Their confidence is in the gospel, and they know that the gospel will succeed. And we need that.

51:51

We very much need that in the American Church, to just be reminded. You know, I think it's even true for parents, as they engage with their kids, to not think, oh,

52:01

I have to have the parenting technique down if I get to this seminar. And I'm not opposed to those things.

52:07

We all need help to do our roles better. But at the same time, it's right over the plate, isn't it?

52:15

It's the Word of God and the gospel. And whether we're pastors, or parents, or co -workers, or sons or daughters, or whatever role we play, we have to faithfully proclaim that, and believe that, and trust in that.

52:32

Amen. We do have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who asks, is tolerance one of the main idols stemmed out of the root, in which questions not only the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture, but also, most importantly, its authority?

52:52

That was Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island. Yes, it is. It's definitely not a virtue of our age, the way in which it gets expressed.

53:00

It is an idol of our time. And it's also, you know, this is what idols do.

53:06

They sort of suck the life. They don't give to the worshipper. They suck the life out of the worshipper.

53:12

And so tolerance promises this better society, almost utopian visions, if we could all just get along with each other.

53:23

It does not solve, however, our fundamental problem of sin, and that we stand under the wrath of God.

53:30

There is no salvation in this ethic of tolerance. There is only simply this pie -in -the -sky belief that we will all get along.

53:39

So I love that he's thinking of it as an idol. In terms of linking it up with the authority of Scripture, I think absolutely, because, again, you know, what we're saying is we have more to learn about the moment of our time.

53:54

We have more to learn from the world in which we live. So we live in a, you know, I've heard this expression, post -geography society.

54:02

We live in a society where we're more global, where we are more aware of the other person, and where we have to be sensitive and tolerant of the other person.

54:11

That's true to a certain extent, but when you take that and you carry it to the extreme of saying, and we have to be tolerant of all religions, and we can never say that someone's religious beliefs are wrong, then we are saying we know more than what

54:28

Scripture has to say about what is truth. So I think, again, a check to where tolerance crosses the line and becomes no longer a good thing, but becomes not only a negative thing, but an idol, is when that tolerance is expressed in such a way that, again, challenges the truth of God's Word.

54:50

In fact, as I'm sure you would agree, those who claim to possess the greatest level of tolerance in our modern society typically, most often, demonstrate the least bit of tolerance for those of us who are

55:05

Bible -believing Christians. Absolutely. You know, I mentioned that book by George Yancey.

55:10

We could go back to that. So here he's saying, all these people are complaining that Christians are intolerant, and then they say, throw them to the lions.

55:21

Yeah, exactly. Very oxymoronic. Indeed. Well, thanks a lot,

55:26

Tyler. You're also getting a free copy of a book, Time for Confidence, and I'd like you to conclude the program with a summary of confidence in hope.

55:38

A lot of people, I don't know how long the word hope has been used this way, perhaps a century or more, but a lot of people use the word hope to describe something that they just really want very badly, or they want very much.

55:54

But explain hope in what you are describing in A Confidence in Hope.

56:01

At the end of the day, we have to have faith and trust in God as a promise -keeping

56:07

God. And when we come to the pages of Scripture, we are told again and again that God is a promise -keeping

56:14

God. And what is held out for us in the pages of Scripture is that all...this

56:24

is a great line from Edwards. He's looking at the, like, tributaries of a river, you know, and he's looking at this river and he's seeing how it covers this diverse territory, and that it meets all kinds of obstacles, but yet it will disgorge itself, which is, you know, a great 18th century term, that all this river will disgorge itself in its intended end.

56:51

And we can look at our lives, and we can look at what's happening culturally, and we can just see road blocks and obstacles, and we begin to doubt, and we can begin to waver.

57:00

And it's at those moments that we need to realize that we can trust in God. He is a promise -keeping

57:06

God, and our hope is not a wish -dream, but it is a surety, and it is an anchor, and it is, in fact, a sure thing.

57:16

And I think, as I, chapter...try to reflect on 1 John, chapter 3, and as I look at that verse, and I think of that, that we shall be like Him.

57:28

If that is not enough to give us confidence, I don't know what is. To recognize that God is working out all things, not just on a grand scale for His created order and for this world, but on a small, micro scale of my life,

57:45

God is working out all of those things to His purposes, to His ends, and for His glory.

57:53

And that includes getting me all the way home, and in my glorified state.

57:59

That's a reason for confidence. That can give us a place to stand, no matter what's happening in our lives or what is happening in our culture.

58:09

Amen. Well, Dr. Nichols, it has been such a joy to have you on the program again, and I really hope that you come back, not only soon, but very often.

58:16

You've been a delight, and you've certainly been a great source of edification for me, and I'm sure many of our listeners, if not all of them.

58:24

I know that your website, again, is ReformationBibleCollege .org, ReformationBibleCollege .org.

58:30

We also, of course, have Ligonier .org, L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R .org, the website for Ligonier Ministries, where our listeners can find more about Reformation Trust.

58:41

Do you have any other contact information that you'd like to provide for our listeners?

58:48

No, that should do. I just appreciate the conversation with you, Chris, and, you know, it's cold up there, up north, so you're more than welcome to come down and visit us anytime here in Florida.

58:59

I'm sure that I will be, and I do have friends down there, and in fact, the daughter of the woman who led me to Christ back in the 1980s, she is now living there with her husband and two -year -old son in the

59:12

Orlando area, so I'm sure that God will probably be bringing me down there for a visit at some point in the fairly near future.

59:20

We'd love to see you, and thanks for the time. Really appreciated it. Well, God bless you. I appreciated you as well, brother, and I look forward to your return, as I said, very soon.

59:28

Yes, God's blessings to you, too. Thanks so much. God bless. And coming up next is our second guest for the program today.

59:39

We will have, for we've never dealt with in a full -length program before on Iron Sharpens Iron, and that is,

59:52

Marijuana, Is Its Recreational Use Sin?

59:58

We're going to be talking about that issue with Pastor Mark Chansky, and we're going to be taking your questions on that issue via email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:00:14

chrisarnsen at gmail .com when we return from this station break, so don't go away.

01:00:20

We'll be right back with Pastor Mark Chansky and our discussion on Marijuana, Is Its Recreational Use Sin?

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That's the Thriving Story. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the

01:03:59

Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.

01:04:06

www .wlie540am .com.

01:04:12

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions.

01:04:19

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

01:04:25

Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back, and speaking of pastors, we have a pastor on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio right now,

01:04:36

Pastor Mark Chansky, who serves as the minister of the Harbor Reformed Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan.

01:04:43

He's hermeneutics professor for the Reformed Baptist Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, an author of Manly Dominion in a

01:04:52

Passive Purple Four Ball World, and we'll have him explain that again when he gets on the air with us, and Womanly Dominion, More Than a

01:05:01

Gentle and Quiet Spirit. Today he's going to be addressing a very controversial theme. Marijuana is its recreational use sin, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Mark Chansky.

01:05:17

It's a pleasure and an honor to be back with you. I appreciate the work you've done over the years, and hopefully the hour together can be useful.

01:05:24

Yes, I am delighted to have you back on the air, and let's have, even though we've done this before, but I would love for you to give a description of Harbor Reformed Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan to our listeners, especially because it seems that we have new listeners being added to our audience every week, and especially since I just left a major Bible conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

01:05:52

I'm very confident we probably picked up a lot of new listeners who have discovered me for the first time since I had an exhibition booth or an exhibitors booth there at the conference that was very frequently visited by the thousands of folks who were there.

01:06:11

So let our listeners know about Harbor Reformed Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan. Well, back in the late 80s,

01:06:19

I was one of the five or one of the four pastors at the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids.

01:06:26

We had four pastors there at that time, and we had planted a number of churches,

01:06:32

Louisville, Kentucky, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Lethbridge, Alberta, Sault Ste.

01:06:39

Marie, Michigan, other places, and the thought was, let's plant a church nearby. We had some folks who were driving in about 45 minutes from the shore of Lake Michigan, Holland, Michigan, and so we ended up with about ten families that we took from our church in Grand Rapids and planted what was then the

01:06:57

Reformed Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan in 1994, and so at that time we began in a gymnasium on the north side of Holland, able to purchase a building by the wonderful provision of God in 97, and now, well, we actually changed our name in 010 to be the

01:07:18

Harbor Reformed Baptist Church, that idea of harbor, meaning if you're a storm -beaten boat and you need a place to dock and find a rest for your soul, our arms are outstretched wide to you, and the

01:07:34

Lord has blessed us, many dangerous toils and snares, but he's been a wonderful Savior to us, and he's built this church, and the gates of hell hasn't prevailed against it,

01:07:43

Chris. We're thankful. Well, praise God, and I know that you have written at least two books, and I've interviewed you in the past on both of them.

01:07:53

One is Manly Dominion, and you've got to obviously explain again what you mean by the subtitle,

01:08:00

In a Passive Purple Four -Bowl World, and then the other is Womanly Dominion, More Than a

01:08:06

Gentle and Quiet Spirit, but if you could start with Manly Dominion in a Passive Purple Four -Bowl

01:08:12

World. Well, both Manly Dominion and Womanly Dominion are based on the words of the

01:08:18

Lord when he first spoke to man and woman, when he said, Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over everything that moves on the earth.

01:08:33

So the idea of subduing and ruling involves aggressiveness, not permitting your environment to dominate you, but for you, man and woman, to dominate your environment.

01:08:46

And if you've ever played billiards, you know that there's a four ball, and a four ball is not something that's aggressive, like the wielding cue stick carrying player, but instead the four ball is just passive.

01:09:01

It gets pushed around by fellow balls, by cushions, by cue sticks, and so the point is we've got to be aggressive and not passive, which

01:09:10

I think our world has caused us to be very passive, laid back, and permitting the environment to determine what we do instead of our taking the lead and being aggressive.

01:09:23

So that's Manly Dominion in a Passive Purple Four -Ball World that I wrote. Womanly Dominion, about four years later, just to display that this issue isn't just for the masculine, it's also for the feminine, and women aren't just to be the gentle and the quiet spirit.

01:09:40

Yes, they must be that, but they've got to be a lot more. They've also got to subdue and rule in the various spheres of life that God has assigned them to, just like men,

01:09:50

Chris. Yes, so those books were both published by Calvary Press, and we will give you, the ones that are on in the program, of course you can go to Amazon and they are available there too.

01:10:11

But we are going to be discussing today an issue that has become more prominent in discussion these days because of the legalization of marijuana in different states who are legalizing it not only for the medical use, to be used as a painkiller and other things with people who have various forms of cancer and other illnesses, and then of course recreational use, which is our topic for today.

01:10:49

As you know full well, Pastor Mark, that for many years,

01:10:55

I remember growing up in the early seventies, mid seventies, when

01:11:03

I first began to hear about marijuana, and then in the mid seventies, when

01:11:11

I was a teenager, actually started partaking in its use, in fact to quite a habitual extent to the point where I went from an

01:11:24

A student in grammar school and in junior high, after my discovery and falling in love with the use of marijuana, becoming a

01:11:37

C average student in high school because I was just never studying. I was taking off from school quite frequently just because I'd rather party in the woods with my friends and doing all kinds of things, and although I am not bragging when

01:11:53

I say that I've never been a stupid kid or person other than stupid decisions

01:12:01

I've made, I really could have achieved a lot more in the academic realm if I had not begun to use that drug.

01:12:11

But we have heard going all the way back to perhaps even the sixties, perhaps even earlier, that who are these people who believe it's completely permissible to drink alcohol in moderation?

01:12:30

Who are they, who are you, to say that pot or marijuana or whatever you want to call it is somehow a sin to be looked upon as a different substance than alcohol and it's merely just hypocrisy because marijuana is connected with the hippie movement, it's been connected with the more rebellious element of society, so therefore it is looked upon with great disdain and there's no real logical reason to look upon it that way other than superstition or stereotypes and bigotry if you will.

01:13:11

How do you respond to that kind of mindset? Well you know Chris I think you've summarized the background really well.

01:13:18

We've got in the U .S. today a momentum that has swept from the coast just like same -sex marriage has surged and people are drowning in it.

01:13:28

Here we are in little safe western Michigan and we're finding that all those issues that were present there in California and Oregon and Washington, now

01:13:40

Alaska, Colorado, DC, Nevada, even Maine, guess what it's come to a theater near us right here and I think that's the way it's going to be for just about everybody out there.

01:13:52

It's become the third most popular recreational drug in America only behind alcohol and tobacco used by over a hundred million

01:14:01

Americans. According to surveys some 25 million Americans have smoked marijuana in the past year and more than 14 million smoke like that regularly.

01:14:12

There was a Gallup poll in 2013 reporting that 58 % of Americans support the legalization of weed.

01:14:19

Now as I say this is not just something that is a coast problem, it's become a

01:14:27

Midwest problem as well and we would in theory be much more conservative. Take the campus at Ann Arbor here,

01:14:35

University of Michigan. I've been told that possession from marijuana will get you a little more than a minimal citation, something less serious than even a traffic ticket.

01:14:48

It's prevalently used even here. I live in Zeeland, Michigan. You think of a more safe place than that, a more conservative place than Zeeland, Michigan, but it's all over the place and the high schools, even the

01:15:01

Christian high schools here. Somebody told me recently, he said, Mark, you'd be shocked how many people are using it.

01:15:09

And just like you say, Chris, in past generations when somebody'd go home from work just to sip wine, to chill in the evening, a lot of folks in this generation are going home to smoke a joint in order to get high in the evening.

01:15:27

So yeah, it's a real issue that we need to address and I thought, just regarding our discussion here,

01:15:34

I think maybe eight questions worth asking that we can work through.

01:15:41

We may not get through all of them, Chris, but the issue is I don't think that we can say the Bible gives us chapter and verse saying, thus saith the

01:15:49

Lord, smoking marijuana is sin. But I tell you what,

01:15:55

I find in 1 Thessalonians 5 .21, it says, examine everything carefully. Hold fast to what's good.

01:16:03

Abstain from every form of evil. I think we've got to discern, we've got to really think wisely about, is this a form of evil?

01:16:13

Paul says, examine it. That word, documazo, which means the testing of metals.

01:16:19

I think we should examine it. And I guess I got eight questions by way of examination to ask.

01:16:25

And by the way, I'm really thankful that you're here and sounds like you've had quite a bit of marijuana experience, even in your youth.

01:16:34

I can't say that I have, and I can't say I'm sad that I'm in jail.

01:16:40

I mean, Bill Clinton and I, I guess, must have something in common there, but you can give personal testimony to validate some of the things that I'm saying here,

01:16:52

Chris. Okay. And I noticed how quickly you said you went from being an

01:16:57

A student to a low C student. It just devastated any sense of ambition in you, didn't it? Yeah, well, the recreational use of it became a priority in my life.

01:17:10

Of course, you may have some immediately protesting, well, that was you. You were an idiot.

01:17:16

I'm a responsible person with a job that requires serious questions to be answered and tasks to be performed, and I know how to allot my time and schedule my priorities, so therefore you can't just blame everybody for a jerk like you who misused the drug to such an extreme that it became a detrimental thing in your life.

01:17:41

But you know, Chris, the reality is, this ain't your father's old mobile, this ain't your father's marijuana we're talking about anymore either.

01:17:51

It's so much more potent now in 017 than it was back in the 70s when you were messing around with it.

01:17:57

Let me just go to the first of our of the eight questions when you ponder, is the recreational use of marijuana sin?

01:18:04

I think the first question is an easy one, and that is, is marijuana legal in your city or in your state?

01:18:12

And the clear answer would be that if it's not legal, then it is sin.

01:18:19

Romans 13, one says that every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities, for there's no authority except from God, and that which is established are established by God.

01:18:31

So, like here in Oregon, you're not to be recreationally using marijuana, and if you're

01:18:38

Christian, and if you're doing it, it's clear -cut. You're in sin. It's just like refusing to pay taxes.

01:18:46

You don't do it, you're in sin. So, I think that's an issue. Now, I realize,

01:18:51

I realize that there are these medical cards that are handed out, and I realize people can even get medical cards, but it's such a joke in so many ways.

01:19:02

I'm not saying that there isn't some use for people who have cancer issues, or people who have

01:19:09

MS issues, but I tell you what, you know what's going on on the coast. They set up tents on the

01:19:14

Malibu Beach, and you come in, and if you throw down your $300, hey,

01:19:20

I'd like a medical marijuana. What's your problem? I get headaches. They'll write it out for you, and even over here in West Michigan, you can get a doctor and hold kind of like Tupperware party among 20 -ish year old people.

01:19:36

Everybody brings a hundred dollars, a thousand dollars laid down for the doctor coming. He'll write out ten medical marijuana cards because someone has a backache, or someone has anxiety.

01:19:47

He pockets a thousand dollars and walks away, and ten people walk out with a medical marijuana card, and that's a joke.

01:19:54

That's really a mockery of this whole issue of the law, I believe, but I want to move then from the second to the second question.

01:20:04

The first was, is it legal in your city or state? But the second would be, is marijuana a gateway drug?

01:20:10

Have you wrestled with that one? You know what I'm talking about when I say that, Chris? Oh yeah. The whole issue of, does it seductively lead its users into harder drugs like meth, or coke, or heroin?

01:20:24

Is there a chemical dependency that weed brings on? There's a lot of debate here.

01:20:30

Some people say, ah, you can't be addicted to weed at all, but you know, more studies are showing that marijuana can be addictive.

01:20:39

In fact, as I was saying, the pot smoke today isn't what guys were smoking like,

01:20:44

I can remember Gary, who was our 122 pound Allstate wrestler at my high school.

01:20:51

I'd go to a Friday night party, and there's Gary, and there's Gary inhaling really deeply. Okay, it was affecting

01:20:57

Gary big time in the 70s, but is so much more potent now in 2017.

01:21:05

Let me talk about babies being born to mothers who were chronic marijuana users, and the way those babies suffer withdrawal after birth, and then there are treatment centers in the

01:21:16

U .S. treating patients who've had addictions to marijuana. There are withdrawal signs that are shown up to 10 to 15 days after the last use, and those withdrawal symptoms will be like sleeplessness, and anxiety, and nervousness, and restlessness, and loss of appetite, and cravings, and the idea of it not having an impact.

01:21:41

There's a guy named Mike Gamble who has written that marijuana may not necessarily lead to chemical dependence for weed or other drugs, but he says it surely is a social gateway, leading you to live among people who will suck you into even harder drugs.

01:21:59

Let me just give this quote here from Gamble. He says this, yeah, there's no proof that anyone who uses marijuana moves on to other drugs, because they build a tolerance to it like alcohol or cigarettes, he says, but 80 % of addiction is due to environment.

01:22:15

So especially for kids, when they're exposed to an environment where people are drinking or smoking pot, they're much more likely to enter a world where they can find drugs like heroin or coke.

01:22:26

So certainly marijuana is a gateway drug, and you think of the Bible implications about this, like Proverbs 1320, he who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.

01:22:43

Telling you, I see it even locally here. You hang around with potheads, you're gonna suffer harm, just like the

01:22:52

Proverbs says, or 1st Corinthians 15 33, don't be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals, or Proverbs 2320, don't be with heavy drinkers of wine, or with gluttonous eaters of meat.

01:23:08

That's a great quote that Piper's given, he says this, be ruthlessly clear -headed, let the herd stampede over the cliff without you.

01:23:18

Use your mind, warn them not to join them. And in regard to drunkenness, and a marijuana high is a kind of drunkenness, the

01:23:27

Bible says, in the end it bites like a serpent, Proverbs 23, and it stings like an adder, and your eyes will see strange things, and your heart will utter perverse things.

01:23:39

So Piper says, so in other words, it leads away from the kind of sober mindedness and self -control that's essential in using the mind for the glory of God.

01:23:51

I think that's a bullseye regarding this issue of, is marijuana a gateway drug?

01:23:58

Now, there are people listening, perhaps especially, but not exclusively younger people, who really can't understand why a

01:24:10

Christian, and of course there are Christians who are prohibitionists, or who believe in total abstinence of alcohol, some of whom

01:24:22

I highly regard as modern -day heroes like John MacArthur, and even the current pastor of Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England, Dr.

01:24:35

Peter Masters, and I was surprised, actually, because I have heard the contrary, but Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, who seems to be quite a knowledgeable expert on the life of Charles Spurgeon, he says

01:24:48

Spurgeon did not believe in the liberty to drink alcohol, although he was a cigar smoker till his last breath.

01:24:59

Yes, right. But there are

01:25:05

Christians, even, let alone those who are not

01:25:10

Christians, who say, I don't understand how you can believe in a liberty to moderately socially drink alcohol and have a strict prohibition against marijuana, because we would agree that the abuse of either leads to not only other drug use that is more serious and deadly, and we believe that both, when abused, can lead to all kinds of problems in life.

01:25:42

Some would even say that the marijuana use is safer than alcohol abuse, due to the evidence of what

01:25:51

I'm aware of, you know, Beale accidents primarily being involved with drunk drivers, not necessarily those high on marijuana.

01:26:01

And there are other things that the user of marijuana, or perhaps even just somebody who's trying to think this issue through, they don't understand why we would be in any way defending the liberty to use one thing responsibly and moderately and not the other.

01:26:22

That's great, Chris. In fact, let's use that as our third question we asked. First, is it legal? Secondly, is it a gateway drug?

01:26:28

How about thirdly, isn't it just like alcohol? Well, let me respond to that. The Bible certainly, it doesn't prohibit the moderate use of wine.

01:26:37

John 2, the Lord Jesus, He converted water into wine in the upper room.

01:26:43

I think at the Passover dinner, the Last Supper, I think clearly there was wine in that cup.

01:26:50

Or even Psalm 104, 15 speaks of wine, which makes the heart glad.

01:26:56

It is a gift of God. And so it's only the excessive use of wine that would lead to drunkenness and loss of discretion and self -control.

01:27:08

So we know that drinking wine in and of itself isn't sin, but it's the excessive drinking of it, drunkenness, loss of discretion, self -control, to the point of intoxication.

01:27:19

Now, I think we could say this whole idea of any mood -altering substance that drives to drunkenness, we can say it's sin.

01:27:30

I mean, think of the scriptural warnings that we have, Ephesians 5, 18. And again, when you think of alcohol and then you think of pot, weed, you've got to say, is it sin?

01:27:42

And what does the scripture say? So Ephesians 5, 18, don't get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the

01:27:51

Spirit. And by the way, be filled with the Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness.

01:27:58

Self -control is the fruit of the Spirit. Or Proverbs 23 says, don't be among drunkards or gluttonous eaters, for they will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

01:28:11

And you are a personal testimony of that, you A student, reduced to being a C, middle school student.

01:28:19

And if you'd have kept doing it, it would have gotten worse. Also, Proverbs 23 says, who has woe, who has sorrow, who has strife, who has complaining, who has wounds without cause, who has redness of eyes, those who tarry long over wine, those who go with mixed wine.

01:28:37

Do not look at the wine when it's red, when it sparkles in the cup, it goes down smoothly, but in the end it bites like a serpent, and it stings like an adder.

01:28:45

Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart will utter perverse things. You'll be stupid, and that's exactly what happens when people get high.

01:28:56

Or Isaiah 5, 11, woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late in the evening as wine inflames them.

01:29:05

I was just talking with a young man just recently, who said, you know what, I think all the time about getting high.

01:29:12

I just want to get high. I'd rather get high than do anything else.

01:29:20

That's what this drug has done to them. Or Matthew 24, it speaks about the wicked servant, says, ah, my master is delayed, and he begins to beat his fellow servants, and he eats and drinks wine with drunkards.

01:29:33

These are warnings of the Scriptures about our becoming intoxicated, about our losing our self -control.

01:29:41

Now, I realize, Chris, I realize that there are a number of people who say, well, I just like to smoke pot.

01:29:47

I just enjoy it, just like people enjoy a little wine with their dinner.

01:29:52

It enhances the chicken teriyaki taste in my mouth. I don't see the difference. Well, the clear difference...

01:29:59

And, in fact, those who smoke marijuana say that it enhances the taste of cardboard or anything they eat.

01:30:05

Well, it's spoken by a man who's experienced, Chris. I think the difference between smoking marijuana and having a glass of wine or drink or bourbon, it's a pretty wide difference, because of the significant fact that nobody...

01:30:22

You tell me if I'm wrong on this. Nobody lights up a joint or sparks up a bowl of marijuana with the purpose of enjoying its taste or the way it enhances the food, like you've just said.

01:30:35

But, rather, there's one reason, and one reason alone, that people smoke marijuana, and that is to get high, to lose that sense of self -control, and get intoxicated.

01:30:48

Am I right? Yeah, well, I can speak for myself and the people that I knew, although I can say that some that I've met would say that to relax, and I guess that a part of getting high would be related to the relaxation.

01:31:05

I mean, there are some that have said to me that they have no intention or desire to get obliterated out of their minds, but they just want to be able to relax after a long day, or what have you.

01:31:16

But I'm not saying that they're being totally honest. I would have to be a mind reader to know that. Yeah, and I've done some reading, and it just speaks about how, basically, you know, you think of, okay, a few sips of wine and a little relaxation, but with the kind of pot that's available today, it's four puffs, they say.

01:31:36

Four puffs will get you to that spaced out high point. So, as far as the idea of just using marijuana to enhance,

01:31:46

I think that's a really naive thing. I think to suggest anything different is either to nod in ignorance or deception.

01:31:53

Consumption of alcohol can be accomplished without getting high, and it's done without the intent of getting high, but I think, on the other hand, one man writes,

01:32:01

I've never met anyone who smoked or consumed marijuana without the intent of getting high.

01:32:09

So, again, I think you go back to the issue of the self -control, I think the intoxication.

01:32:16

Alcohol can be used without getting drunk with wine, but I believe the idea of using marijuana without getting intoxicated is a myth.

01:32:28

And we're going to be going to a break right now. We do have a couple of people who have written in questions for you, and we appreciate your patience, and we'll get to you as soon as we can when we return from the break.

01:32:38

If anybody else would like to join them with a question of your own for our guest, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:32:48

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please include your first name, at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the good old

01:33:03

USA. And you can agree, you can disagree, or perhaps you're just not certain, but we would love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:33:15

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with our discussion on marijuana.

01:33:23

Is its recreational use sin? Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am

01:33:30

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:33:37

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

01:33:43

Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

01:33:50

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01:33:58

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01:34:05

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01:34:17

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01:34:23

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

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01:39:42

Welcome back, this is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the second hour of the program, with about a half hour to go, is

01:39:52

Pastor Mark Chansky of Harbor Church in Holland, Michigan.

01:39:57

It is a Reformed Baptist congregation and our guest is also an author.

01:40:03

We are discussing, Marijuana Is Its Recreational Use Sin, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:40:13

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

01:40:24

If you're outside of the USA, we do have Tony with an I in Rock Hill, South Carolina, and I met

01:40:31

Tony for the first time at the recent G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and the mystery was finally resolved whether or not

01:40:40

Tony is a man or a woman, and it was confirmed that Tony is a woman. I always had my suspicions because of the spelling, but now

01:40:48

I know Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina is a woman. It was very nice to meet Tony, very gracious lady and sister in Christ, and I am so thankful to all of the

01:41:00

Iron Sharpens Iron listeners who let me know during that conference how much

01:41:06

Iron Sharpens Iron has meant to them over the years, some of them who have been listeners even going back to 2006, and was even privileged by meeting somebody from London, England at the conference who has been listening to the program for years, and I thank all of you.

01:41:22

I can't even explain in words to adequately convey how much

01:41:27

I am blessed by you and the encouragement I receive from you, so thank you very much. But Tony wants to know, it appears that the

01:41:38

Lord will not just be serving wine, but the strongest, most well -refined wines available, and she is referring to Isaiah 25, 6 through 9.

01:41:51

Would you consider a prohibition position at all legalistic?

01:41:59

Talking about wine now? That's what I'm assuming, because she's really responding to some of the brethren

01:42:05

I mentioned earlier who are, I believe, in total abstinence of alcohol, such as Dr.

01:42:13

MacArthur and Dr. Peter Masters and so on. Yeah, you know, I tell you what, Chris, I would just as soon not go there right now.

01:42:21

I think that's another broadcast for a wiser man than I am. I just think this issue of marijuana is something we should keep our focus on.

01:42:29

I'm, dear Lady Tony here, again, our perspective on this is not that I can say, thus sayeth the

01:42:36

Lord, this is an issue where we got to have consciences that are tender.

01:42:41

We leave people in the custody of their conscience on this, and regarding this issue of marijuana, I'm laying things out here.

01:42:47

I'm trying to give the whole counsel of God so we can say, like Psalm 139, search me, O God, know my heart.

01:42:53

Test me, know my anxious thoughts. See if there be any sinful, hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

01:42:59

And I guess I'd like to just go back to the issue of marijuana, not get bogged with alcohol. We kind of touched on that, but there's another issue, too.

01:43:06

We talked about questions. You know, the question is, does marijuana impair brain development in teenagers, leaving permanent reductions in IQ?

01:43:16

And I think that's a huge issue. You think of Matthew 25, and how we are stewards of the talents that our

01:43:24

Master has given to us. Am I a one -talent man, or a two -talent man, or a five -talent man?

01:43:29

How much IQ, talent, ability has God given to me? And woe be to me if I bury it.

01:43:36

I just think of a Psychology Today article that was penned in 2013 regarding the impairment of teenagers' minds in the development stage.

01:43:46

The article says it's common sense that being a heavy cannabis user might make someone more spaced out and less likely to perform well on memory tasks.

01:43:56

A study published in December of 2013, researchers at Northwestern Medicine discovered that the developing teenage brain may be particularly vulnerable to an excessive marijuana use.

01:44:07

Research found that teens who smoke marijuana daily for three years had abnormal changes in their brain structures related to the working memory, and performed poorly on memory tasks.

01:44:17

In an alarming twist, the study found abnormalities in brain structure and also identified memory problems two years after heavy marijuana users had stopped smoking pot as teenagers.

01:44:28

And the researchers found that memory -related structures in the brains appeared to shrink and collapse inward, reflecting a possible decrease in neuron volume.

01:44:38

And these findings indicate that there could indeed be long -term detriment and chronic marijuana use to teenagers.

01:44:45

So just ponder that issue. Young people, if you're listening, or parents or others, tell the truth to these young people.

01:44:54

Even medical science, from a liberal perspective, is saying, keep it away from the kids because it'll damage their developing minds.

01:45:04

So I think that's a crucial issue as well. I'm sorry, were you saying something?

01:45:09

I'm only kidding. Yes, in fact, we have a listener who actually has a question in regard to the detrimental effects.

01:45:20

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, asks, this is not a joke,

01:45:25

I hope you don't take it as one, but I had always heard that chronic use of marijuana by males could possibly grow female breasts on them.

01:45:38

Please forgive me if you think that this is a joke, but it's not. I have heard this for many years. I was wondering if this was a myth or if this has actually been proven to be true scientifically.

01:45:50

I heard that as well as a teenager. In fact, I think that was the only one of the only things that got me nervous about smoking marijuana was this warning that I had heard.

01:46:00

Have you ever heard of this and have you ever heard whether it was dismissed or should

01:46:06

I say disproven or proven to be true? No, I've read nothing about that in my research.

01:46:12

It sounds to me more mythological and anecdotal. I don't think there's any data that would validate such a concern.

01:46:20

But what I do think, just to touch on an area of concern, we talk about brain development levels.

01:46:27

You even mentioned yourself, Chris, the idea of reduced levels of personal ambition and drive.

01:46:34

I think that's an issue worth really, we only have a little bit of time left, but I really want to emphasize that crucial point because we're called on, according to Ecclesiastes 9, whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all of your might.

01:46:51

Where to subdue, where to rule. If there's a guy who's in our church, he's an engineer.

01:46:59

He went to the University of Michigan over at Ann Arbor where marijuana is used heavily. He said he got in with a group of engineers and as freshmen they were go -getters.

01:47:08

These guys were hard workers, but about six or seven of them got into the use of weed and he said, to the man, these guys lost their ambition and kind of like you, your own testimony.

01:47:22

These guys were straight -A students. They were cutting -edge capable, but they sort of drifted into the, hey, let's chill out.

01:47:30

They didn't want to work hard. They went into mediocrity and almost all of them just dropped out of the program.

01:47:38

I know it's anecdotal, but I think it's quite compelling. Even there was a Huffington Post article that was entitled this, and Huffington Post is hardly conservative.

01:47:49

Longtime marijuana use linked with decreased motivation, study finds. Here's a little quote.

01:47:56

The stereotype of pot smokers as lackadaisical loafers is supported by the new research.

01:48:02

People who smoke marijuana regularly over long periods of time tend to produce less of a chemical in the brain that is linked with motivation, and a new study finds.

01:48:10

Researchers in the UK scanned brains of 19 regular marijuana users and 19 non - of the same sex and age using

01:48:19

PET scan, which helped measure the distribution of chemicals throughout the brain, and they found that the long -term cannabis users tended to produce less dopamine, that feel -good chemical in the brain that plays an important role in motivation and the reward -driven behavior.

01:48:36

And so, man, you look at us as Christians, we are to be hard drivers. Genesis 1, we're to be out there not being passive purple four balls, we're to be out there subduing, we're to be out there ruling.

01:48:51

Nehemiah, he built the walls in 52 days, he didn't go home and inhale a bong every night and chill out.

01:49:01

He had a sword in his trowel to his side, one hand in the other, day and night, he was driven by holy ambition.

01:49:09

I think as Christians, we've got to be people who worship the Lord with all of our heart, all of our strength, all of our soul, all of our mind, and we don't put our mind into numb neutral if we're to make

01:49:25

God fearing in what we do. You know, isn't it interesting, not that I'm recommending that people, especially

01:49:33

Christians, watch movies that describe or depict,

01:49:39

I should say, marijuana users, but it's interesting that even films that have been produced by those who are strong advocates for marijuana use, not just legalization, but who are advocates that it be used recreationally, they typically depict in their films the marijuana user exactly the way you are describing the marijuana user, which is basically showing that the stereotype is true in this instance, that whenever you see a modern film, even if the producer or creator or writer of the film is notorious for being a liberal and an advocate of marijuana use, the typical marijuana user is lying on a couch and can be barely woken out of sleep or is stammering some kind of delusional nonsense, but, um...

01:50:36

Oh yeah, yeah, Chris, this whole theme, and this is so important to emphasize, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self -control, and if there's something that we're putting into our bodies that reduce our self -control, well then it is sin.

01:50:53

You may have interviewed Mike Waters in the past there. Mike Waters is the guy who came out of the rescue mission of downtown

01:50:59

Holland. He was into drugs and pot and all kinds of immorality.

01:51:05

I was just talking to him. He's now a pastor and actor and how God has wonderfully worked in his life. He's been there for 10 years as a pastor.

01:51:10

He said, you know, Pastor Mark, he says, he says, back in the day when I had pot, when

01:51:16

I was high, he said, it's like, it's like you're sitting there, and in fact we were listening to, um, a

01:51:21

Pandora music at that time, and he said, you know, it's like sitting there listening to this music, and he said, if you're on a pot high, you'll fixate in on one thing in that music, like, like the piccolo, the music you never heard in the past, that instrument, but you're so disproportionately fixating on the piccolo while you're sitting at the table talking that you don't realize that you knocked over the candle and your whole living room is on fire, but you're still fixating on the beauty of the piccolo.

01:51:52

And I want to ask you this question. Would you want your kids cared for by a high babysitter when you leave that babysitter alone with the kids?

01:52:06

Do you think it's better for, do you think it's good for you as a parent? Would you trust yourself as a parent? I hear about a parent giving kids a bath and filling the bathtub and forgetting what they were doing.

01:52:17

Wow. Devastating results. Even the idea here of negative side effects of marijuana, it writes, it can result in confusion, acute panic reactions, anxiety attacks, fear, a sense of helplessness, a loss of self -control.

01:52:35

Chronic marijuana users may develop a motivational syndrome characterized by passivity, decreased motivation, preoccupation with taking drugs, like alcohol intoxication.

01:52:46

Marijuana intoxication impairs judgment, comprehension, memory, speech, problem solving ability, reaction time, driving skills.

01:52:56

You know, like you say, the guy who's, that one guy writes, I was at a party, it took me an hour searching for my hat.

01:53:03

And I realized at the end of the hour, my hat was on my head. I gotta admit,

01:53:08

I do things like that now totally straight. Even a

01:53:16

WebMD, just simple WebMD will say it impairs your short -term memory, it impairs your ability to think abstractly, it slows your reaction time.

01:53:26

Driving. They will say that you're endangering the people around you by driving when you're high.

01:53:36

We do have a listener, and I usually don't give a full name of a listener, but whenever I get a question from a pastor who

01:53:45

I have heard from others that I know and respect, is a definitely worthy, a pastor worthy of promoting and introducing to my audience,

01:53:56

I like to give their full name and their location. Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker in Greensboro, North Carolina.

01:54:05

He has... In Holland here with me, Vanderwerker. That's right. He says, well well,

01:54:12

I have, like you Chris, way too much experience with this question. So, the answer is yes.

01:54:19

Intoxication is the issue, and it is a simple yes, it is sin. The bigger question is, what does that mean to Chris and I when legalization comes?

01:54:29

Is it still sin? The use of marijuana, recreational use.

01:54:36

Well yeah, obviously if it's against the law, it's sin. No, what he means is when legalization comes, is it still sin?

01:54:44

Even if you have a lot of negative things that you could say about it and warn people against, Pastor Vanderwerker is basically saying, when it's legal wherever you live, is it still a sin ever to partake in it?

01:54:58

Well, I think that's the issue that we're addressing, isn't it? Yes. We're asking all these questions, but we are looking at the text where it says, examine everything carefully, 1st 521.

01:55:10

Hold fast to that which is good, abstain from every evil thing. And I suppose what

01:55:16

I'm trying to drive and argue is, leaving you in the custody of your conscience, as you look at the whole counsel of God, if there's something that leads you to be filled, be not drunk with wine, intoxicated, but be filled with the

01:55:32

Spirit, I think you have to ask the question, can I in good conscience participate in this mind -numbing experience and somehow think

01:55:44

I am glorifying God? Because doesn't the text say whether you eat or you drink or whatever you do, it's not just a matter of is it lawful?

01:55:53

I mean, if you're in, what is it, Las Vegas, prostitution is lawful, right? But is it sinful is the issue in the eyes of God.

01:56:02

That's what we need to be concerned about. R .J. in White Plains, New York said,

01:56:09

I seem to remember, but I can't remember, chapter and verse, somewhere in the

01:56:15

Old Testament that speaks about drug use specifically as being something to be avoided because it's connected intrinsically with sorcery and the occult and pagan religions, which separates it from alcohol, which is not exclusively used by those groups.

01:56:36

Is my memory correct here? Is there such passages in the Old Testament that speak of this?

01:56:42

R .J. You know, I'm not exactly sure what he's referring to, but I'm not understanding and comprehending what he's addressing specifically.

01:56:52

But let me just, with the time remaining, let me just have a word from John Piper, give the last word. He said this, if I were raising kids today,

01:56:59

I'd say your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. You're not your own. You were bought with the price of Christ's blood.

01:57:06

Ask, is this making Jesus look like the treasure he is? I would ask about smoking, about drinking, about recreational marijuana, about sedentary indolence, about overeating, about banal

01:57:19

TV watching, and lots of other things. And I would also add, the body is meant for the Lord and the

01:57:24

Lord for the body. Keep it clean, keep it ready for his use. Don't dull your

01:57:29

God -given powers of seeing clearly and observing accurately and thinking soundly and remembering helpfully.

01:57:35

I would ask, can you commend Christ authentically to your friends while you're on a marijuana high?

01:57:45

Well, somebody has just emailed me, let's see here, Arnie in Perry County says that the word pharmakia is used in a detrimental way in the

01:57:58

Bible in regard to your last person who emailed a question about its connection, drug use's connection, with sorcery, witchcraft, etc.

01:58:08

I certainly think it's true, when you're intoxicated you see strange things.

01:58:14

Yeah, before we go, there are people that I know and respect who are just as conservative as you and I are, who are just as Calvinist as you and I are, who lean politically towards libertarianism.

01:58:32

Not that they would agree with every other libertarian, because there are absolutely abominable people who are libertarians, who are pro -abortion and so on, but they would say that this is not the realm of the government to babysit people and to spend billions of dollars on a war on drugs, and that although they personally disagree with a recreational use of marijuana, they don't believe it should be illegal and consume the time of the police and fill the prison cells and spend billions of dollars of money from the government and the taxpayer.

01:59:09

If you could respond to that. Well, I think it's important that the government does cultivate a society that enhances human flourishing, and I think if there is something that is so detrimental to human flourishing, that the government ought to certain that the building of a fence up on the roof of a house, that was considered the old part of the civil law, and are there things we need to do to keep people from unnecessarily harming themselves and harming one another?

01:59:42

I think that's the question. I know the issue of prohibition, but we'll have to deal with that another time.

01:59:48

Well, I thank you so much for being our guest today, Pastor, and if you could hold on the line, because I'd like to schedule another interview with you, if you could hold on until after we go off the air.

02:00:00

Sure, thanks Chris. And if you could give our listeners your website and other contact information? harvardchurchholland .org,

02:00:10

harvardchurchholland .org, or markchansky at gmail .com, markchansky at gmail .com.

02:00:18

Thank you so much. I want to thank all of our listeners, especially those who wrote in questions today, and I want you all to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater