Does A Husband Have to Earn His Conjugal Rights?

The Bible Bashed Podcast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

And God's not going to look at the man and say, Hey, you know what? Like I commanded you to provide for her, but she's kind of a miserable life -sucking abyss from which there's no escape.

00:07

So you're good. Salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject

00:42

Christ, therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven, the issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty

00:55

God is hanging over our head. They will hear his words.

01:02

They will not act upon them. And when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

01:10

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the father, where he sits now to make intercession for us,

01:26

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them. And when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand and welcome to Bible bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:46

We're your host Harrison Kerrigan, pastor Tim Mullett. And today we'll answer the age old question. Does a husband have to earn his conjugal rights?

01:55

And Tim, I got to say that this is a bit of a funny question from my perspective, just because it sounds very contradictive in its nature, uh, to say, you know, here's this right that you have, uh, to this specific thing and you have to earn it still, right?

02:18

That doesn't sound very much like a right to me. That sounds more like a, um, you know, like some sort of, you know,

02:26

I guess like a privilege basically that you're trying to earn for yourself as opposed to a right.

02:33

Um, so it seems, it seems pretty strange to say, Hey, husband, you know, if you want to gain access to your wife in this way, you've got to do

02:43

X, Y, and Z, you know, you're already married. You know, we're already, we're not talking about like the, you know, set up the wedding ceremony or, you know, find a place to live so that you can get married, get a job so that you can get married.

02:59

We're talking about husband and wife already married. And for some reason the husband is, is having to earn, you know, what, what the

03:09

Bible says is owed to him. Right. So that's weird. That's weird, right? It should be weird.

03:16

Yeah. I mean, so this is coming from first Corinthian seven essentially. So this is a passage just talking about conjugal rights and, you know, conjugal rights or something that are owed to a husband and to a wife in this way.

03:27

But, um, you know, essentially, uh, I'll read first Corinthian seven real quick and that'll get us into the discussion.

03:33

But first Corinthian seven one says now concerning the matters about what you wrote, it is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.

03:40

So what the, um, you know, the Corinthians were being tempted with was a, you know, I think as a proto form of Gnosticism, essentially that thought that, uh, spiritual was good and the material was bad.

03:51

And so, uh, they were under the impression that it was an unspiritual act to have sex with a woman in that way.

03:58

Um, and that's what they're being told by these false teachers. And so they're writing to Paul and asking him, you know, is this right?

04:04

Essentially, is it good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman? But Paul responds by saying, but because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own life and each woman, her own husband.

04:14

And then he starts with the husband first, which is a little bit surprising. Uh, but that's related to the question they're asking.

04:20

The husband should give to his wife or conjugal rights and likewise the wife to her husband. So it's not fundamentally unspiritual to have sex because that's a carnal act or something like that.

04:29

No, the husband should give to his wife, to his wife or conjugal rights. And likewise wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but husband does.

04:37

Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time that you may devote yourself to prayer, but then come together again so that Satan may not tempt you because you're of your lack of self -control.

04:51

But like the issue is the Bible is talking about, you know, um, sex within marriage as a conjugal right is, is, is describing it in the language of rights.

04:59

But then for the vast majority of people, this is almost incomprehensible. I mean, they conceive of, um, you know, sex within the context of marriage as a.

05:07

If, if anything, a conjugal privilege, basically. So getting married, um, in their minds gives you the privilege of being able to have sex provided that both people want to in that moment.

05:19

And if not, then, you know, obviously you would want to, you know, exercise your conjugal rights in any way.

05:27

And, you know, and then it is something that you need to continually earn, you know, so, um, if, um, a woman doesn't feel love in particular, that's typically how it goes, then she can just say no, because, you know, part of it's like the whole, you know, my body, my choice kind of thing, the issue of bodily autonomy and all that, and we can talk about a lot of those things, but yes, for the most, for the minds of most people, they don't even realize that this expression conjugal rights is in here.

05:51

They view this as more of a conjugal privilege kind of thing. But then if you're actually looking at the, the expression itself, like a right is a right, regardless of, um, like a right is not something that you have to continually earn that, and that's kind of your point, um, along those lines, if it's a right, it's a right, you know, it's not something you have to earn.

06:11

Right. Yeah. It feels, it feels weird and obviously contradictory.

06:17

So I guess maybe go into some more about like, why are, why are we even, why are we at a place where we don't even view this as a right, and there are even

06:29

Christians out there who are trying to argue that it isn't a right.

06:35

Well, I mean, a lot of them, a lot of them literally have never read this verse in the Bible. I mean, we're at an all time low as far as biblical ignorance.

06:44

And I mean, this is like deeply problematic to our culture, um, in a wide variety of ways.

06:49

And so this is just, uh, it goes against the me too culture. It goes against, um, women's rights movement.

06:55

And it goes like, it's, this is just deeply offensive and problematic in a wide variety of ways.

07:01

But I mean, like, this is something that the Bible is asserting as right. And, you know, the

07:06

Greek word for that is aphelain essentially. And this word aphelain means, um, you know, there's two, um, main usages of this in the

07:16

Bible. One, the first is that which one owes in a financial sense or an obligation. And that would make people like insane with anger, hearing about it like that, that which is one owes in the financial sense and the obligation.

07:28

So that like marriage is like legalized prostitution in that way. But no, I mean like the second sense is that which one ought to do or a duty.

07:36

Right. Uh, uh, so that which one ought to do or duty and of this usage, it's, um, of that, which is appropriate in social relationships and obligation of pleasing one's spouse consciously.

07:48

So in this way, like it is a duty, like, which isn't any better. Right. So, yeah, obligation, duty, it's not any better.

07:56

Right. So we haven't moved into good territory, but the problem, I feel like they feel like they should be cuss words, you know, for some people probably.

08:05

Right. Right. But like, so part of the problem here is like, if you're trying to answer this question is, uh, should a husband have to earn his conjugal rights?

08:12

And the answer is obviously no. If a conjugal right is anything like no is the answer. Like the answer is no.

08:17

But then there's a lot of things that people hear when you say that, that you may not be actually saying.

08:23

And so like, we're going to have to talk through what is not being said at that point, but then just answering the basic question, the answer is no.

08:30

Like a husband doesn't have to earn his conjugal rights any more than, um, like a wife has to earn her, um, her conjugal rights or she has to earn other features of marriage that come with marriage.

08:42

So there's like these years, there's a lot of, um, like if you think about the way the rights work in, um, the context of marriage and you think about the way rights work in the context of just our nation in general, like I, we have the right to bear arms.

08:57

We don't have to earn the right to bear arms. Right. Right. Yeah. Like, so you have a right to bear arms and now the government makes you want to feel like you have to earn it by making you buy a permit and do all jump through all these hoops and everything else, but that doesn't have rights are actually supposed to work, but then there's plenty of things that come with marriage, um, in terms of like the responsibilities and privileges of marriage that don't have to be earned.

09:19

So, um, now for the most part, like, because of the result of, you know, feminism and egalitarianism on the church, we,

09:28

I think conservative minded Christians, they basically have a lot of things they would put into the category of things that a husband owes his wife in the context of marriage, but they have almost nothing the wife owes to the husband in reverse.

09:42

And so like, this is uniquely offensive in one direction here, but what

09:47

I mean by that is to say that in most conservative homes, I mean, very few people would argue that a husband has like a very real responsibility to provide for his wife.

09:55

Uh, so in conservative circles, like that's not really being disputed, right?

10:01

Like meaning like there's an expectation, an ironclad expectation that a man will go to work and put food on the table for his family.

10:09

And regardless of whether or not the woman is allowed to work too, or whatever else, there is an expectation that a man does that for the most conservative, you know, like in liberal

10:17

Christian circles, it's all there's like marriage that almost has nothing that anyone is committing to whatsoever.

10:24

But in those circles, the guy could be the stay at home and that's probably better even probably better.

10:30

Yeah. Yeah. So you never know. But in the conservative circles, like most people would expect that like a man, like a wife is like, doesn't have to earn her provision.

10:39

Right. So like if a husband were to come home after a long day's work, he's just worked to provide for his family.

10:45

And he sees a bunch of dishes in the sink and he were to see, uh, so he sees a bunch of dishes in the sink, you know, the floors are all dirty.

10:53

There's, you know, massive clothes everywhere. And he looks at his wife and says, well, no food for you today. Right. I guess you don't get to eat until you do your job.

11:02

Right. Now, now most people would think that that would be entirely monstrous.

11:09

Right. Like, I mean, that would be like, it's time to cancel you. It's time to get this lady out of that abusive relationship.

11:16

Like, yeah. What is your safe word? Tell us your safe word. Right. It's like twice if you're being held in captive.

11:22

Right. I mean, so there's no, like the thing is like, there's no, like the people have zero category for this as it relates to the woman.

11:31

Right. So there's an ironclad expectation that a man will go to work every day and provide for his wife.

11:38

And she is owed that, like she's owed that provision again. And if she, if she's in danger, right.

11:45

Like if there is a drunk that were to, I mean, now some of this is starting to go, you know, go away, but like people still have an expectation that man will protect his wife.

11:54

So if there's a drunk who's, you know, held up the couple, you know, on the sidewalk with a knife and waving it around or whatever.

12:02

And the husband were to take his wife and put her in front of him, right. And shield himself from the drunk or whatever.

12:09

Everyone would think, what in the world? You need to divorce that man. You need to run from that. Like, and he can't look at her and say, well, like I would have protected you, but you've been really mean to me lately.

12:19

Right. Like, like, I mean, I just don't know that you deserve that. Right. Like, I don't know that you deserve that from me because you just, you've been a dripping contentious woman lately.

12:29

Right. And so like, I don't even know why I'm going to work for you anymore. Right. So no one has, no one has like a, like with anything the wife is owed.

12:38

Right. Like whether it's provision, whether it's protection, you know, whatever that is, it's not something that in the minds of anyone needs to be earned by her.

12:46

And that's just the way that marriage works. I mean, the way that marriage works is that there are roles and responsibilities that both parties are taking on the context of marriage.

12:54

And like, there are, these are like, these are expectations that come with the, with the marriage commitment.

12:59

Right. Right. So when a husband and wife are making a marriage commitment, like the husband is making a commitment to protect her, to provide for her, she's making a commitment to, you know, no one knows, right.

13:13

Like no one knows, but I mean, like in actual reality, like she's making a commitment to him to be domestic, right.

13:19

To have children, right. To raise those children in the, you know, so like there are very real, like commitments that are being made in the context of marriage.

13:29

It's just, no one has any category for any commitments that a woman is making. Making and like, and sex is one of those things that is like, it's a commitment that both people are making to provide for each other physically.

13:41

And that's essentially what marriage is. I mean, marriage is a one flex relationship. So for this reason, man shall leave his father and mother all fast to his wife.

13:49

The two will become one like that is sex, right. That's sex. So everyone wants to say, well, that's just relational closeness and unity and every in spiritual unity and all this.

13:58

It's like, yeah, but in the first instance, that's sex, right. To become one, right. Yeah. Like that happens physically like that's like marriage is meant to be a sexual relationship.

14:09

I hate to tell you, you know, um, you know, I mean, which is shocking that people are so scandalized by that because everyone struggles with lust.

14:15

You know, lust is the biggest problem that we struggle with. Sex is all over TV, but then it's like, oh, you know what?

14:21

Like, that's part of what marriage is. It's like, what am I? Some prostitute, you know? You mean you have any more respect for me than that?

14:30

That's like, no, I mean, but that's what it is. Right. And that's what marriage is not just an opposite sex bestie relationship where two people come together and just hang out and do life with each other.

14:40

Like, you know, marriage is a sexual relationship. It's not just a roommate, like a platonic roommate, friendship kind of thing.

14:46

Like, and so, but you know, the point, the broader point being made is as you're talking about this kind of subject, um, there are very real responsibilities that men and women are taking on in the context of marriage that don't have to be earned, you know?

15:01

So sex is one of those things. It doesn't have to be earned like that. Like any more than, you know, a wife has to earn food on the table, you know, uh, protection from bad guys, you know, like leadership, you know, like she, she's like, these are features of the marriage relationship.

15:20

So why, you know, you bring up an interesting point there, basically, you know, our, our country is just, um, is plagued, you know, with lust, right.

15:32

Sex is everywhere. Um, it's being normalized in ways, you know, people probably never even thought it would ever be normalized before, like, and just in terms of how easy it is to access, um, like pornography and, you know, even, even the entertainment that we watch and consider, you know, like, uh, like family shows and whatnot, and not necessarily only, you know, family shows, but, um, there's certainly no shortage of mature adult shows that show, you know, that heavily involved sex as themes, you know, and them, and obviously music and it's everywhere.

16:16

It's everywhere. Um, I, you know, I, I unfortunately even see, um, like high schoolers and stuff wearing shirts that like,

16:28

I don't know how they're getting into school with, you know, um, because they're so inappropriate when

16:33

I, when I was in school, you know, the, those kinds of things where you were taken to the office and your parents were called and you were told they were told to bring you new clothes, right.

16:44

But, but we've just become totally lax on all those things. And I, and honestly, you know,

16:50

I think we're kind of at a point and maybe we've been here for a while where there's a lot of things that are,

16:56

I mean, it's just like, it should be considered pornography and people don't consider it that, you know?

17:03

Um, and so, so given that context, given, you know, how, like, how, um, you know, how much our society wants sex, uh, all the time, it seems like this should not even be a problem, right?

17:25

Theoretically it obviously is. So what, what's, what's putting husbands and wives in that kind of position where, you know, a wife is saying,

17:36

I don't want to have sex. Well, yeah, I, I think when you're, when you're thinking about what is causing that,

17:43

I think there's a, a wide variety of things that could be causing that, um, to where,

17:49

I mean, the primary one is obviously sin. So, um, there's now, and this is sort of related to why we're asking it.

17:57

If it does a husband have to earn his conjugal rights to, to some of it's related to that.

18:02

So, um, maybe I can talk about how sin manifests itself with certain biological realities at this point.

18:08

But men, men just have overwhelmingly, you know, 10 times the testosterone that women have. Right. And you know, what that means is that men are just like, they have sex on the brain, like way more than women do.

18:21

And that's just a biological feature of the way that, the way that they're made. Um, and you know, and a lot of that's related to biological cycles.

18:29

So like a lady has a monthly biological cycle, guys have daily biological cycles that are at work, um, that, you know, you don't have to explain, but everyone knows what

18:39

I'm talking about. So men have a overabundance of testosterone. They have these shorter biological cycles.

18:44

A woman might feel like I get a non -sexualized culture at like your average woman might feel like internally pulled towards sex once a month.

18:57

At a predictable time, right? Like related to the time where she's ovulating and it's time to have a baby.

19:04

Okay. So that's the way it works. So, whereas men like they're on shorter biological cycles, they could, you know, there's young men who are not grossly out of shape or whatever.

19:13

They can want to have sex two, three times a day, right? I can be perfectly fine.

19:19

You know, like, um, if, if they got their way that maybe there may be a lot of men, um, you know, if the woman wasn't fighting them the whole time, that's exactly what would happen.

19:28

Right. But then, um, so what's happened is that there's God's designed the system in such a way that there's a remarkable imbalance between like the level of desire that a man has and the level of desire that a woman has.

19:42

That's the feature of it. Okay. And so what, what's happening is that like in that kind of framework, then we have two people who desire this same act to very different degrees.

19:55

Okay. So very like a remarkable difference in degree here. And like, but then like women desire other things of men to much greater degrees than men do.

20:06

Okay. So like, it may be that a man could go a whole month and only chit chat, chit chat with his wife once.

20:13

Right. Yeah. Left to his own devices. Left to his own devices, like being internally compared to, uh, compelled to have small talk, you know, maybe he has like internally compelled to have small talk with his wife once a month.

20:27

I mean, women might be actually shocked by how little, I mean, they're not because they're deeply resentful of the fact that men are not initiating conversation as much, but I mean, like you can run the same, like, like,

20:39

I mean, I don't know what the, you know, the current, uh, research on like how many words women on average have than men.

20:45

But I mean, I think it's like, you know, three times as much words as men have, you know, during the day.

20:51

And if you think about it, like in terms of realities like that, man uses most of them up during the day while he's at work.

20:57

When he gets home, he doesn't have very many left. Right. And then the problem is she hasn't, like the wife hasn't used up hardly any of her words, right.

21:04

Because she's maybe in a more of a traditional home. She's at home with the kids at that point. And only, and now she wants to unload on that man, like all the conversation she wants in her heart.

21:14

Right. All she has locked up for adult conversation. He's the one that's going to bear the weight of it all, you know?

21:19

So, but like the issue is men and women are different. So men, God made men to like, biologically, biologically made men to want to have sex all the time.

21:31

Um, and then he's made women to not have the same kind of desire, but then have others desires.

21:36

And then part of what marriage does, you put two people together with different sets of desires like that. And that's going to make them like more complete people, right?

21:45

Because they're not just going to look to their own interest, but the interest of other people. And so like a wife has a real responsibility in this discussion to steward, right?

21:55

This sex drive that a man has, like, meaning she has to take that on as like, that's my responsibility.

22:01

Like I'm the only person he can be satisfied in. And the Bible tells him, let her breast satisfy you at all times.

22:07

Like a biblical, a godly wife is going to say, I'm the only source of provision. For this man's like sex drive, right?

22:15

It's just me, like, I'm here. Like, that's the only one, like, I guess me. And like, there is like a very real, like, you know, it is like a hunger pain, like, you know, and women don't understand this, you know, at times because they, for them, it's like once a month thing, but it's, it's one of those things where it's just like, like, this is a, um, you know, imagine what it's like to feel hungry every day and not know when you're going to eat again.

22:39

Right? Yeah. I mean, it is that kind of thing. I mean, it really is like, it's that kind of thing.

22:44

And I try to explain this in the context of marriage counseling. It's like that. It's like, you know, like you feel this, you know, dull ache, you know, that you're having to ignore and ignore and ignore and ignore and ignore.

22:57

And the Bible says better to marry than to burn. And that's what it, that's what it's describing is saying it's better to marry than to just constantly be burning with desire.

23:04

And a wife is there to be a provision for her husband. So the, her husband doesn't have to constantly be burning with unmet sexual desire.

23:14

Like she's there to be a source of provision for him, but then he's there to be a source of provision for her and so many other ways.

23:20

Right. And so like, there's things that she needs that she, that he has, and there's things that she has that he needs.

23:27

Right. And that's why the rights. And so like, she's the weaker sex. She can't just, you know, you put her out in the zombie apocalypse.

23:35

Right. She needs protection. She needs probation. Right. She needs safety. She needs.

23:40

But what if she's a boss girl? It doesn't matter. Like put her in a zombie apocalypse. She'll realize she's not much of a boss.

23:46

Right. Like, I mean, so like what's happened is we live in a civilized society right now that is protecting women from like reality.

23:55

Okay. And they, you know, if they were just to move to the ghetto, they would realize very quickly that they aren't as much of a boss baby as they think they are.

24:02

Well, I mean, I mean, I, you know, I, I knew a lot of girls in college who complained a lot saying that they didn't feel safe walking, you know, if they were out on campus at night walking from, you know, some like restaurant out on the, out on the main strip back to their dorm or their apartment or whatever, they felt uncomfortable because they'd have, you know, a truck full of guys drive by and they'd all start like whistling and cat calling and stuff like that to them.

24:35

And, you know, they complained all the time about how they felt incredibly uncomfortable. They felt incredibly unsafe.

24:41

And it's like, well, that's because you're, you know, you're by yourself. Yep. Yep.

24:47

You're not made to protect yourself. And, you know, and that's part of like, you, you can do the boss babe, you know, feminist, you know, stuff all day long, but it's like reality pushes against it.

24:57

It's not real. Right. So, so like the thing is like men and women, they, they need different things and God's put them together.

25:04

Now, when sin enters into the world, one of the things that happened is sin is like, like, like what's happened, what's happening is most of the sex stuff in our culture and our society is about lust.

25:15

Okay. And lust is a desire for the forbidden. Like that's what lust is. So like less can be like an overwhelming desire, consuming desire, desire for the forbidden.

25:24

But like the issue is that, you know, ladies can have a significantly higher sex drive before they're married because they're fueled by lust and lust always wants what it can't have.

25:35

But then for many women, like the moment they get married, it's like all of a sudden they can, they don't understand why this happens, but their sex drive just dies.

25:43

Right. So it just goes like it fizzles. It turns off. It's like, what happened? Like what happened here?

25:49

Right. And what happened was that lust wants what it can't have, have not lust isn't satisfied in what it has.

25:56

And so the moment you get married, you want what you don't have, which is freedom from this, right?

26:03

Like, so like you, before you're married, you wanted what you couldn't have, which is this now after marriage, like what you want is what you don't have, which is freedom from this.

26:12

And then the guy is just stuck with his biological, his biological clock, basically, which is just going to go, mom.

26:24

Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, and so then he's like, doesn't understand why all of a sudden, you know, the, the woman, you know, that he, they both struggled.

26:34

And often this happens when they fail, like sexually before marriage in particular, you have guilt and shame that are feeding into it that are shutting it off too.

26:42

But they couldn't keep their hands off each other before marriage. And all of a sudden after marriage, it's like nothing, right?

26:47

It's like, well, what happened? The spark is gone. It's all gone. Like, it is like, who are you? You know, like, you're not the person

26:53

I thought. And what it, what it was, it was, you were feeding that for one and you're feeding lust and then lust is never satisfied.

27:00

It just turns, you know? And so for the woman, you know, it often turns there. So part of it's that, like, it's like a discussion of how lust works.

27:07

Part of it's just a feminism discussion that says my body, my choice, don't nobody tell me what to do. You know, it's like throwing off the shackles of a biblical worldview, master patriarchy and all that, right?

27:18

And so there's that kind of thing. And then, I mean, this is a problem for some women too.

27:24

Very, not as much. I mean, it's overwhelmingly like, like women are denying their husband, making their husbands earn their conjugal rights.

27:32

But then it can happen the other way too. Particularly if a man is like addicted to porn or something like that, where he just grows in dissatisfaction towards his wife.

27:40

And, you know, and then he's like, you know, I don't, I don't want anything to do with you or, you know, like she maybe gets like an increased libido, you know, around menopause and things like that.

27:53

Right. And by that time, the guy has kind of let himself go and, you know, his maybe let himself get overweight and all of his stuff is, you know, he either has porn induced erectile dysfunction or just straight up, you know?

28:07

And so at that point there can be a very real, it's become a problem the other way.

28:13

But then in most cases, this is a, like an obligation that a woman doesn't want to take on because it feels like most people think it feels like prostitution in that way.

28:24

Does it feel unloving to call it like a obligation?

28:30

Yeah. Yeah. When you call it, when you call it a duty, I mean, aren't you kind of taken like all of the magic out of it?

28:37

Well, that's stupid. I mean, you went for the, you went for the pejorative.

28:46

Yeah. I mean, it's stupid. I mean, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You know, it is.

28:51

I mean, it's so stupid. Like, it's like, like duty is a good word. So you're saying that sex should just be this passionless, just like, just lay there and then, and then wait until it's over.

29:07

And then tada, I've, you know, satisfied my giving my conjugal rights for the day.

29:14

So, all right. Duty, the word duty means an act or course of action, an act or course of action that is required by one's position, social custom, law, or religion.

29:28

An act or course of action that's required by one's position, social custom, law, or religion.

29:35

Like you think about this as it relates to a soldier, right? So like, like if a soldier says like, it's my duty to serve this country, no one thinks about that.

29:48

Like, oh man, you're just like a grit in your teeth and bearing with it. Right. Like that's,

29:53

I mean, that's honorable. You know what I'm saying? Like it's honorable to faithfully fulfill your duty, like that obligation that you have.

30:02

And like, most people don't like, like what's happened is you have like a very feminine view of the way relationships work.

30:09

Okay. And so like, if you put, if you take like a exaggerated feminine way view of the way relationships work, then like you've taken all the magic out of it because it doesn't feel like it's a

30:21

Hallmark movie or something like that. Right. It's not spontaneous enough. It's not spontaneous enough.

30:27

And it's like, yeah, but like, but most men, they're not looking for like, you know, breathless spontaneity or something like that.

30:35

Right. Like every day has to be a new magical encounter. Every day has to be a new Hallmark movie. It does.

30:41

I mean, that's not the way like reality works. It doesn't work that way. Right. And that's not like, so duty is not a word that you need to view as like rote duty or drudgery or something like that.

30:54

Like duty is a word that says like, Hey, um, it's my duty to protect our country and Hitler is an evil that has to be stopped.

31:00

And I'm willing to go lay my life on the line to stop him. Right. And I'll be the first one in battle to go because it's my responsibility.

31:09

And like, there's honor in that. And like what you don't like, if you're sitting there critiquing that, because like, there's not some giddy excitement behind it or something like that.

31:18

Right. It's like, if there's just like a, like a resolve, like a firm resolve to do what's right.

31:25

Like, and I would rather die, you know, like there are men who would go fight for our country and they would rather die than have the women go fight.

31:33

Like, cause that was theirs. Right. And it's my duty. You're not going to take it from me. This is like mine.

31:39

Right. And like, now, if you were to treat, like, if a woman were to treat her husband's sex drive like that, we would have good marriages.

31:46

Okay. I'm not saying that's all that there is to it, but like, there's not like, there's a lot of women who need to treat their husband's sex drive.

31:54

Like it's their, their duty that no one is going to take from them. And that like, this is why

32:01

I'm on this planet. Right. Is to take care of this thing. Just like my husband is taking it on as his duty and his obligation to go and, you know, get the sword out and protect the village.

32:15

Right. I'm going to protect my home by doing my duty right now.

32:22

But you like, like, there's a sense in which like, you know, you think about it as it relates to the soldiers. They're like, they're not all miserable doing their duty.

32:29

Right. Right. It's not just misery. It's not just misery all the way down. It's like, no, this is, there's a great sense of fulfillment in saying, this is what

32:38

I was designed to do and I'm going to do it. Right. And there's nothing that's going to stand in my, in the way of it.

32:45

Right. And so there's like, regardless of whether or not that is the plot of a

32:51

Hallmark movie or something. Right. Like, like that doesn't matter in that Hallmark movie.

32:56

Yeah. I'm here. It's my duty. It's obligation to take care of you, husband. Let's go, you know, like I mean, but I mean, so that you can, you can make it like, but the thing is, it's just like, this is a, it is a responsibility of marriage and it's something, it's something you need to guard and it's something you need to protect.

33:15

It's something you need to own. And, and, you know, there is great fulfillment. Like, you know, just like a soldier has great fulfillment in being a good soldier.

33:24

Right. You know, wives can find great fulfillment and husbands can find great fulfillment and you know, taking care of this duty, this responsibility, and there's honor in that.

33:35

And it doesn't have to be a miserable drudgery or something like that. That's just, it's one of those things where it's just like, it's a false dilemma essentially.

33:43

You know, and, and as you've kind of been talking about this, one of the things that it reminded me of is let's think about like someone who doesn't want to read their

33:55

Bible. Right. Right. They don't want to read their Bible, but they know that they should, they know that they should be reading it every day.

34:03

They don't want to. And so, you know, they, they try and find these like really complicated

34:08

Bible reading plans and they start them, but then they never stick to them or whatever. It's, you know, part of the advice that I tell people with that is like, just,

34:19

I mean, literally just commit to doing it, you know, like quit making it super complicated, making it this big ordeal.

34:29

It doesn't have to like, it doesn't have to be this big thing. Just like open it, read it for, you know, like start small, read it for a few minutes.

34:38

And like, you've done it for the day, you know, do it, do it again tomorrow. And, and just try and like build up that good habit over time and pray, you know, and ask

34:49

God to help you and give you a desire to want to read his word. And, um, you know, you might find like, at first you don't really understand very much at all of what you're reading, but then over time, as you do it more and more, you find that you do start understanding it, um, more and more in, in larger capacities.

35:07

And, and it seems like this is kind of a similar deal maybe where a lot of times it's hard to even just like, like attack the problem at all.

35:20

Right. Uh, where there's certainly, yeah. Sense in which just like Bible reading, like people do the same thing with Bible reading or prayer or any kind of spiritual activity.

35:31

Like what what's happening is, is that they, they get it in their mind that in order to do something well,

35:39

I have to basically do it perfectly. Do it perfectly. You know, there's like different components to a moral action.

35:45

So, you know, obviously we need to love the Lord our God with our heart, soul, mind and strength. Right. And like, you don't need, like God loves a cheerful giver.

35:53

He doesn't just love a begrudging giver or something like that. So God loves a cheerful giver. But the point is just to say that, yeah,

35:59

God loves a cheerful giver. So that doesn't mean that you don't, you wait to give money to your church and you can do it with a good attitude.

36:06

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're never going to do it because you're never going to be cheerful now, but then part of how you get to be a cheerful giver is to like grit your teeth and do it.

36:15

Right. Right. Like, and so like, there's something to that, but then like, I don't think that that's all in the word duty.

36:21

Okay. So one part of the discussion is that like just the word duty does not have to be begrudging obedience.

36:27

Okay. And a lot of like, I think thoughtless Christian pastors, pastors have, and I'm, some are coming to mind have treated the duty as if it's a bad word.

36:39

And it's like, no, it's not a bad word. It's a good word, like treating it like a bad word. It's a good, like, that's a great word. Okay. So dutiful obedience is great.

36:47

Like we need dutiful obedience. Okay. Like you need people to accept their obligations and you know, now that doesn't mean you can, it's joyless.

36:56

Like you can find great joy in it, but yeah, I mean, sometimes you have to do things that you don't really feel like doing. And like, if you're that selfish as a spouse that you wouldn't want to give to your husband, who is working, you know, 50 hours a week to provide for you and put a roof over your head.

37:10

If it's that hard to bring yourself to want to sacrificially take care of literally probably the only thing he, you know, cares about, like that one thing he asked of you, like, you know what, like he would probably, you could get, you know, he could probably deal with a lot of your, you know, dishes in the sink and clothes laying around the house.

37:31

If you just give him that one thing, you know, you know, but like the point, the point though, is just to say, like, if it's that much of a chore to you.

37:39

Yeah. I mean, there might be a sense in which you need to like say, all right, this is my obligation. I'm going to be honorable.

37:45

I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it when it's hard and then like get to a point where it's, you know, easier.

37:50

Right. So, but, but yeah, that isn't, that isn't necessary. It's not necessary to view any sense of duty like that.

37:59

And that's not really what the Bible is saying when it describes the conjugal rights as a duty. It's duty is a fine word.

38:04

It's not a word that we need to reinvent, but. So the majority of this conversation has been, you know, women withholding sex from their husbands.

38:17

You know, why is that? Why are we only talking about women withholding sex?

38:23

I mean, can't you make an argument for there are men out there who do the same with their wives?

38:29

So in the case in first Corinthians, it starts out with the man giving it to his wife for conjugal rights, because there was, there was a understanding at the time that they were, that Paul was combating, which was to say that man shouldn't have give to his wife, his conjugal rights, because that'd be fundamentally unspiritual.

38:46

And I mean, then there are scenarios like that, that can happen. And I think it's, you know, statistically speaking, you know, you're talking about like a 95 % 5 kind of thing, right?

38:58

Like you're talking about a 95 % 5, I guess 95 % of the time it's, it's the wife not wanting to give to her husband the conjugal rights at this point in history.

39:07

And 5 % of the time, it's the husband not wanting to do it. So overwhelmingly, that's just what the statistics are.

39:13

If you don't like that, then, you know, I hate to tell you, you probably aren't, don't really have a good understanding of what, of reality at that point.

39:21

But even if you want to argue, it's more like a 70 -30, that would still justify talking about it, like a predominantly a male problem, which 70 -30 is pretty exaggerated the other way.

39:33

So this is predominantly that kind of problem. But so I think it's like, but either way, it doesn't matter.

39:42

This, this goes with the territory, you know, regardless of who's doing it, either way, you know, a husband has no, has no right to deprive his wife, has no right to deprive his wife anymore.

39:54

Right. It's a, it's a mutual right shared amongst both of them. Mutual right that both people have, right. I think biologically it's a right that the husband would typically want more.

40:03

Right. And I think in terms of where we're at society right now, it's overwhelmingly, like it, it's one of those things that's funny.

40:13

Cause it's like, um, most people would respond very badly to a man, not giving his wife her contical rights.

40:22

Oh yeah. Yeah. Even the wife, right. Like, can you imagine how that would look in most of these relationships

40:27

I'm talking about? If, if a wife were to try to approach her husband for sex and he would say, oh yeah,

40:33

I'm not really in the mood right now. I mean, yeah, you should, you know, you should, you should have done a poll on that,

40:40

Tim. You should have done a poll the day before that's like, you know, if a man, if a, if a man's wife approaches him and asks for sex and he refuses her, has he, has he sinned?

40:55

Has he failed as a husband? Can you imagine like what, what, what, how that would go? If like a wife would approach her husband and the husband were to say, yeah, you know, you've kind of let yourself go a little bit.

41:05

I'm good. So like what's happened.

41:15

I mean, that would never happen. That would never, I mean, so meaning like everyone would think, man, that whatever that guy is just like, like the worst kind of guy imaginable.

41:26

There's obviously something wrong with him. You know, and the wife would take such offense to that, right.

41:32

To where like, and no one would, no one would take the guy's side on that. Well, I think,

41:38

I mean, I think she should take offense to that. She should. Yeah, she should.

41:43

But like no one would be on the guy's side is my point. Yeah. Right. Right. But then like with this, what happens is like with, with when it's the man wanting sex from the woman, everyone is predisposed to take the, the woman's side.

41:59

Right. And like in, in the way that the question is asking meaning like, you know, well, you must not have earned it like you should have.

42:07

Right. Right. So like on the woman's side, like it, it really is the situation where if a man were to say no to a woman, there's almost no conceivable situation.

42:17

Like everyone would instantaneously take the woman's side on that and think she doesn't have to earn that.

42:23

You should love your wife. Right. Right. Like it's very imbalanced in that way. But then on the other side, it's like, everyone would take the woman's side.

42:31

And like part of what's happening in this discussion, and we haven't even talked about it yet is. If you just say like, as we have an unqualified, no man doesn't have to earn that.

42:39

Obviously it's a right. Then what people instantaneously here is okay. So a guy can just be like a lazy slob.

42:47

Um, he can be abusive, abusive, like horrible husband, and then demand sex for his wife.

42:53

And that's immediately like they get the self -righteous indignation and the, you know, imperious tone in their voice.

43:01

Oh, okay. So you're saying that the abusive husband can just do whatever he wants and then demand sex of his wife and she just has to give it to him.

43:10

Is that what you mean, Tim? Right. That's exactly the tone I was talking about. Yes. Yes. So that's exactly what's understood in the background, but then that isn't what has been said so far, right?

43:22

So no one has said that like none of us, I haven't said that you haven't said that that hasn't been the operating assumption.

43:27

We're just talking about, yeah, we're just talking about the rights. Yeah. We're just talking about how rights work.

43:33

Like, so like meaning like a wife could be a horrible contentious woman and she shut and everyone still expects that man goes to work for her every week and does so without complaint and puts food on the table.

43:44

And no one could imagine a scenario where the husband were to look at his wife and say, Hey, you haven't been a good enough wife this week.

43:50

So you don't eat. Okay. No one can imagine that scenario because it's ridiculous.

43:58

Like, because that's not the way this works. She's not, doesn't earn her keep like that. Right. That's pretty funny though.

44:05

But I mean, like if you were to think about it the way that you thought about sex, like everyone thinks about sex as a privilege, then why not?

44:13

Hey, honey, you didn't work today. So you know what happens in the real world when you don't work, honey. Right.

44:18

Like in the real world, like my job, if I don't work, I don't get paid. So you didn't work today.

44:24

You don't get paid right now. If that's the way you're viewing it, like a transaction, then like that makes perfect sense in the context of any, any normal relationship.

44:34

Right. But then with marriage, like there is certain, um, like responsibilities that come with that covenant you made.

44:40

Right. So, and so here's the issue. God holds like men responsible for protecting, providing, aiding, right.

44:49

Giving conjugal rights to his wife, no matter what the wife does. Right. Yeah. Like no matter, like for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse till death do you part,

44:59

God holds a man responsible for his part. And you know what? God holds the woman responsible for her part too.

45:05

Like the commitments that she's making and she's making some very real commitments in the marriage too, regardless of how well her husband does, if that makes sense.

45:13

So she's, she's held responsible for hers and like, God, isn't going to look at her and say, Hey, yeah, well, you know what?

45:19

Like, I know I told you to give your husband your conjugal rights, but he wasn't a very good guy.

45:25

So, you know, off the hook and God doesn't apply to you and God's not going to look at the man and say,

45:33

Hey, you know what? Like I commanded you to provide for her, but she's kind of a miserable life, a second of this from which there's no escape.

45:38

So you're good. You know, like you just make her go work for herself. Right. You know, teach her a lesson.

45:44

Hey, Hey man, I get it. I get it. He doesn't do that. He doesn't. So he doesn't do that both ways.

45:50

Right. And so now, I mean, so like a man, like there is a type of man who is going to say, Hey, give me my conjugal rights.

45:56

And then he's just going to ignore his wife all week. Right. He's going to ignore his wife all week.

46:01

He's not going to talk to her all week. He's only going to approach her when he wants something from her. The only kind of physical affection he's going to show her is when he wants sex and she's going to be calm on it.

46:10

It's like, Oh, you're going to ask me for sex now that you just came up and gave me a hug. Right. You haven't touched me all week.

46:16

You haven't looked at me all week. And now, now you want to touch me. And so there is a kind of guy who's going to do that.

46:23

And like that kind of guy, it's like, Hey, yeah. Do you want her to enjoy giving to her given to you?

46:31

Right. Do you want her to enjoy it? Or do you want her to feel like she's like gritting her teeth, gritting her teeth, giving to Jabba the

46:38

Hutt or something? Do you want her to be repelled by this?

46:44

Right. So like, what do you want? Like, it's so now, I mean, like in the same way, like now in the same way on the other end, do you want your husband to feel good about going to work for you every day, right.

46:56

To provide for you, or do you want him to deeply struggle with like temptations towards resentment for the fact that he's working 50 hours a week and he comes home and you haven't done anything.

47:07

Right. So you can make it like a joy for him to say, I love this woman and I want to take care of her.

47:15

Or you can make it a temptation to be hard. Right. Right. So you can make it a temptation to be hard or you can make it a joy.

47:22

Right. And like, if it's like, you want her to enjoy it, then do the kind of things that will help her enjoy it.

47:29

Make it about her as much as about you. Right. Like just about you getting your thing and being done.

47:36

So you can move on, like make it a thing that's enjoyable and like as much as she'll let you as far as that goes.

47:43

And I mean, in scratch, you know, obviously, you know, you love her the way that she wants to be loved.

47:49

Then, you know, you're putting her in a better situation, you know, and, you know, often like when women feel deeply unloved or they feel like there are problems within the relationship that are dismissed and minimized and unaddressed, they really do struggle with this kind of area, you know, or if you're not like very, like you're not a man, you're not a leader, you're just kind of a, you know, whipped, you know, little tail between your legs, puppy dog kind of person who, you know, follows your wife around and ask her, you know, make all the decisions.

48:20

She may not be very attracted to her. So, I mean, there's obviously things you can do to make her attracted to you more, right.

48:26

To help her to grow in her attraction to you, be the kind of person she finds attractive. I mean, you may not be able, she may have an unrealistic standard of what that things are at times, but you can do that.

48:35

You can make it easy. You can make it hard. Right. But then the point though, is just to say, right to rights.

48:41

And like, there are things that come with the marriage covenant and God wants both people to be like absolutely committed to their responsibilities regardless of what the other person does.

48:53

Right. Now, the last question I did want to ask you sort of in the same vein is, do you think there are ever times where, you know, a wife,

49:03

I guess a husband or a wife, but probably more specifically a wife should actually withhold sex and it would be like the best thing in terms of honoring

49:14

God? I mean, you know, I would answer the same question with, is there times when a husband should withhold food from his wife and it would be the right thing in honoring to God?

49:27

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I guess it's probably like in 1 Corinthians maybe, but I mean, doesn't

49:35

Paul talk about like, you know, really the only time you should withhold this is for the purpose of prayer and only for a short, a mutual agreement and only for a short time.

49:48

Right. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, this is a part of, this is a part of marriage.

49:54

Now, I mean, there may be things related to this topic that a wife should say no to, right.

50:00

Whether you're talking about, and without just giving an exhaustive list of those kinds of things, but I mean, if your wife, if your husband's asking you to watch porn while, right.

50:09

Right. Like something like that, like while you give him his conjugal rights and like, that's just a different topic.

50:17

Okay. Right. Yeah. Like in that way, you know, or if there are certain ways that a husband is wanting conjugal rights that are like.

50:27

Unnatural or something. Unnatural or like unnaturally harmful or something like that.

50:32

Right. Yeah. Like, like there are, there are lines, like he can go beyond his authority with those kinds of things.

50:38

So, and I mean, you know, if a husband is really realistically just taking no consideration whatsoever about like the time of night, you know, it's three in the morning and he is having trouble sleeping.

50:54

And so he, and you got to get up and breastfeed in a few minutes or whatever. I mean, there are very real, like,

51:00

Hey, you know, you're selfish kind of conversations that need to be had, you know, with those kinds of things too.

51:08

But then there's always, I mean, like you can, you can confront people of their selfishness without sinning too.

51:15

Right. You know, or the frequency is just like, you know, a guy's wanting it four times a day or something every day as an expectation.

51:23

Anytime I asked you better, you know, I think there are times where you say, Hey, uh,

51:30

I mean, your primary posture should be yes. And then there are times where you go and talk to church leaders and ask them to help sort out some difficulties.

51:37

And, and a part of the problem is that a lot of people are in these kinds of situations. They don't have a church that practices church discipline.

51:43

They're going, going to. And so, you know, there's a lot of, there's no channel for like correction really.

51:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about like sickness and stuff? Um, yeah,

51:57

I mean, I, I think a guy would be, um, pretty much of a jerk if he's, you know, um, now this is a hard one.

52:07

This is a hard one because, um, um, yeah, we have to, we have to figure out like, what is the line basically between reasonable and unreasonable?

52:22

Well, there's sickness and there's sickness. Okay. There's sickness and there's sickness.

52:29

And so there's a, there's a kind of woman who thinks she's like, we'll constantly be talking about how bad she feels every day of her life preemptively in order to, uh, uh, ward off her, you know, husband's sexual desires, you know?

52:47

And so there's, I mean, there are kind of, I mean, there are like, you know, feeling bad kind of stuff that come from being lazy and there's feeling bad, like guilt and shame and condemnation from being lazy and being slothful.

53:00

Right. And, um, like to where, you know, there's like, you know, fibromyalgia, right.

53:06

Which is just chronic body pain that has no biological cause, which is probably the result of being overweight and lazy and everything else.

53:15

Right. And so, like, so part of this is like, where it gets complicated is like, what, like, what are we talking about with sickness, you know?

53:25

And, you know, there's a lot of ladies who like really will claim to be not feeling good.

53:31

You know, we probably should do a podcast on not feeling good, you know, like they'll use not feeling good as an all purpose excuse to get out of ever having to cook or clean or take care of their husband because they're not feeling good or they have a headache or whatever else.

53:46

And so, like, just, you know, if you were to. The other extreme would be the guy who's like, all right, if you're not feeling good,

53:58

I want a doctor's excuse to go in. A doctor's excuse.

54:10

But, but, but, but I mean, I do think like you get this many sick days.

54:15

Yeah. I mean, but there is a very real sense in which like a lot of ladies are kind of working that system to not be productive homemakers and to not take care of their husbands to where like in real life, you know, if a guy's going to call off work, he needs a doctor's excuse kind of thing, you know, like, like meaning like reasonable, real people, they only have so much tolerance for you can't handle life.

54:40

Right. Like you should. And so, so yes, a guy shouldn't be asking when his wife is legitimately doctor's excuse sick kind of thing.

54:50

Right. Now, if you're going to like generally not feel bad, feel well, because like for months and months of your life, because you don't take care of yourself and you never move and you eat too much and you're just lazy and like at some point you're just going to like, like you're just, you know, you got to think about what you're saying.

55:09

Right. If that makes sense. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up this conversation on and, you know, hopefully this has been a challenging conversation for a lot of people.

55:20

I think, you know, in my experience, this is just something that seems like it's an issue often in marriage, which is understandable in the sense that we're all sinful, right?

55:35

We all have a temptation to gravitate towards sin in general and, and we have to deal with sin our entire lives and fighting it off through the power of the spirit.

55:46

And so I understand it makes sense why it's so common, but then that doesn't excuse it as something that we can't address obviously.

55:55

And so so, you know, hopefully this has been pretty challenging for a lot of men and women listening out there in terms of, you know, it's like just having like sitting down and saying,

56:08

Hey, we need to have hard conversations about this because at the end of the day, what's happening is, you know, you're ultimately not only are you not being faithful to your spouse when you don't, when you don't regularly have sex with them, but then you're also not being faithful to God because you made a, you made a vow before him, right.

56:28

I'm saying you would, and God has, God has clearly specified what marriage is supposed to be and sex is a part of it.

56:38

And it's a regular part of it. So, so this is, this is a pretty serious topic that we're talking about.

56:43

And hopefully all you out there listening are thinking about it that if you weren't, you know, now is the wake up call to say, you really do need to be taking it that seriously and, and understand that these are actually rights that are owed to one another, the husband to the wife and the wife to the husband.

57:01

So we appreciate all you guys listening weekend and week out. We appreciate all the support and, and getting to interact with you guys throughout the week.

57:10

And, and it's, it's been a lot of fun to see how things have been growing over the last year, you know, year and a few months, however long it's been.

57:18

And so Tim and I have been really encouraged hearing from you guys, getting episode suggestions, questions that you guys have that you want us to talk about seeing how, you know, seeing how you guys interact on the polls and whatnot.

57:33

So as a closing, we wanted to remind you guys to like the video, subscribe to us on YouTube.

57:40

If you're watching on YouTube and, and we have a Patreon that's linked in the description, whether you're listening as a podcast or you're listening on YouTube, we have a link to our

57:50

Patreon where you can go to support us. If, if you really appreciate our ministry and it's helped you in any way, and that, that really helped that goes a long way in us to be able to do this every week.

58:03

So but until we see you guys again on the next one. Transcribed by https://otter .ai