Episode 6 Part 2 - Is Homosexuality a Sin?

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Mm -hmm. Do I have anything in my teeth? Oh my goodness. No, okay
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I just wanna make sure I don't think your teeth I was eating a sandwich and I had black pepper and I just want to Make sure there wasn't anything stuck up in there
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Stop I Were you laughing at it I was laughing at the pepper joke Back in the room
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Back in the room back in the room back at it at the point taken Podcast the podcast where we make and take spiritual and biblical questions and Chat it up.
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My name is Hunter. I'm the host of this podcast point -taking podcast To my left is a special guest
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Brother Cecil Shipley, how's it going? Are you happy to be here very happy to be here?
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Oh good. That's what we needed Yeah, your brother always says it pastor Josiah is out of town. So we got
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Another one about 20 steps down The next best thing wasn't available and I the next next best thing
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I thought you said the next text back. So I was like, what does that even mean to my right as always the tried -and -true?
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The greatest there is Andrew cook welcome shoulder everybody. I take it back
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It's on the right and true he's there And Rejoining us again for part two of our videos his brother
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David. How's it going man? It's going good We love having you here. Love having you back last week was awesome.
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Let's continue guys We got cut short last week because time restrictions, but we are going to go right back into it today
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The question is Homosexuality, is it a sin? Last week we covered it.
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We landed on a resounding. Yes Homosexuality is a sin as backed up Leviticus Chronicles Romans Jude not
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Jude. What's the other one? Genesis, yeah, Jude. It was Jude as bad. Oh, yeah, and Genesis back up just about everywhere
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Biblically backed up. So now we are gonna talk about a couple of other things
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Starting off we are going to speak about a couple of arguments pro Homosexuality in the
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Christian world. Okay. So first, let's talk about is it possible to Be a working homosexual in the
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Christian world Jeff can I pass it off to you and see what you said? I would say
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In the terms of working if you mean like openly practicing active Yeah, like active
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It would be the same. I view it as the same as every other Sin like that is this if it's an active lifestyle if you don't feel conviction for sin that you are
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Doing you need to check your salvation? Because the Holy Spirit will convict a father.
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He's I mean Jesus says it multiple times what type of father You know won't correct his son and be a bad father
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So as your father in heaven, if you are sinning and disobeying and he doesn't correct you you don't feel his correction
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Don't need to look at that salvation. So Working homosexual in the Christian faith is gonna be tough because if they are they're probably gonna be under some harsh conviction true if they have the
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Spirit of God in them, it says in a First John chapter 3,
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I believe verse 9 Says any who has the Spirit of God in him cannot keep on sinning in other words
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God's Spirit will not allow him because how have you how can you who died to sin continue to live in it?
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And I think that's Romans 6 Saying so what should we say then if God's grace is so great?
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Why not keep on sinning and let his grace abound? No, it doesn't know it's a it's a it's a resounding
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Absolutely, not Because how can you who have died to sin still live in it?
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Remember we are new a new creation We're to be like Christ and Christ was sinless.
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So there's no way for us to be sinful Correct. So living in sin without any
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Conviction any conviction? Okay. Well, I have something. Can I say something right before you say something you sure can
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I really liked Jeff's point, but I can't respect it with this hair like this the way it is right now It's really it's yeah
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Camera crew that fix it No, it's fine you're fine one alfalfa
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Non sticking up Honestly, it worked for you No, you're good.
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I love it. No, just love it. No, thank you. Yes, make sure okay So just make sure you don't look like that like yeah, just make sure you look fine so I've been doing some research last week.
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My answer was yes, and I've done some research and I Wanted to go ahead and present some of the other sides of the argument for homosexuals
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Sorry homosexuality not being a sin. Okay, so let's hear it.
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Let's take this so we just said that if you are a Born -again believer you should feel conviction for when you're doing something sinful.
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Okay? Well, let's say for the sake of argument that the word Or if I'm reading the
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Bible and I look at it from historical context and I look at I do a word study on On finding the word homosexual
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You will not find it until You see Bibles written in eight the late 1800s because the word
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Homosexual was not an actual word yet. It was not Practiced it was it's a
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German word that well, they coined it and they It's it's a mix between a
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Greek and a Latin term meaning man with man and sexuality, so That rings
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So I can make the argument homosexuality is actually not even covered in the Bible so homosexual
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Sexuality can't be a sin. I mean it's not in the Bible. Yes, and no the word might not be in the
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Bible But the action still is My and let's just say the original back in the day made before 18
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Mm -hmm 100 that's what we're talking about because it is in the Bible today as translated from words previously used before then
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But continue with your book. Oh That's the first point. Yes. Okay. I just I didn't want to cut you off.
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I just wanted to um So that's the trick when you're talking about etymology. That's etymology, right the study of words.
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Okay Entomology is insects. Yes Something new every day I get them confused
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When you learn about the history of words and you get caught up in logical fallacies guys remember
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Just because the specific word Homosexuality did not exist prior to that.
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That doesn't mean that the word they used Isn't homosexuality. I get to that doesn't make sense like okay
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You got caught in that gotcha moment or you know, you're having you're having the shower That's what
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I always say. It's like man. Anybody can hop in a shower and have that moment This is something that Christians haven't thought about to 2 ,000 plus years of Christianity and I just figured it out right here
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I know word homosexuality didn't even come to existence until the 19th century and then you're like Wow Well, the word didn't come into right was the word homosexuality wasn't but guys
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That doesn't mean that the concept and what it is did not exist Just because we weren't using the you know,
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English wasn't even a thing Right. I was like the word the English language right now is so different than the
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English you ever read Shakespeare That was English, yeah,
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I mean you ever go to England can I use I don't count that as it's English I'm gonna use my geography teacher moment.
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Yeah, those are what we call language families. Yeah word language families word
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Which yet Legit, so I'm just like when you get caught up in what specific language
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Has a specific sound kind of like the name of Jesus a couple episodes ago We said how do how do people who've never heard of Jesus get saved?
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Well, it's not because it's because you don't have to literally have the phonetic Jesus in order to be saved you don't have to know
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Jesus Because if you did nobody before English today
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Would be saved because back then his name was a whole lot different because it was in a whole bunch of different languages so what
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I'm trying to say is Just because the word the English word
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Homosexual is not in the Bible before the 1800s Does not mean that the
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Bible did not say that homosexuality is bad So, yeah, so I get two things on that real quick one is between Translation between languages.
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It's like exactly right in Hebrew I mean the the name Joshua and the name
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Jesus was the same because they had less letters So we pronounce one Joshua one
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Jesus, but you pronounce those basically the exact same in Hebrew They're both like Yeshua, yeah, that's how you pronounce both of them just because they have less letters you see that a lot
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If you know two languages, you'll see that a lot But the second one is what gets
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Christians every time is, you know when Andrew first said that I was like, well Yeah, the word Trinity isn't in the
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Bible either Doesn't mean I don't believe in the trying nature of God. You just have to look at What is it saying rather than where's my one word?
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So, I mean you can say, you know Homosexuality wasn't in the Bible to the 1800 the word Trinity still isn't in the
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Bible because it's just not in the Bible The word trying nature is not in the Bible You have to look at what the words are saying and then you see the try you nature of God Yeah, the words used in the
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Greek We don't you you know why I use the word
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Homosexual or homosexuality instead of these words because I can't say them. Okay, that doesn't mean they don't exist
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I'm gonna try and read it out. I'm gonna give it to you so that you can put it right here on the screen Okay Malachoi Mal a koi and arsenic or synacoide.
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I said accord. Yes. Yeah are synacoides. Okay Our synacoides is a sin like come on If you had told me that like in not knowing me
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I would look at you be like, okay, you're crazy you're on I'm gay Congratulations, I'm happy for you.
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I would have no idea. So But yeah,
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I mean just like the word was still there it just wasn't the English homosexual or heterosexual or anything like that it was
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This word that I don't like trying to say you said it, right? Do you think so? I think I didn't take
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Greek. I don't know the pronunciation tell me what's the difference between the two. Okay, not so Malachoi is a
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Greek word that it has a wide translation. I have it written right here. It can mean wanton debaucher weakling sensual or effeminate or it could
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Talk about a male prostitute Right and you put that together with our
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Senate our synacoide. I Right, like it's called our synacoides, but like the other word for like that's a conjugation or synacoide
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Translating them together as men have sex with men or homosexual, but the word literally means soft so like you think about Terms today, so you have a lot of the what would be trigger words and I don't mean this an offensive way
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I'm just gonna list it out. You have faggot you have queer you have all those the things that we use today
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And that one's not bad anymore. Yeah, queer has been reclaimed. Yeah, so that one's not bad If you use it and you're not then it is still bad, right if you use it as a slur
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Yeah Anything as a slur and it's gonna be bad if I say you dog like that That's us when you say that to me right now
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Leave your comment below if you think that I shouldn't have called him Our podcast we sit beside each other, okay, this is new
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Me sitting next to you normally. I'm over there. I really like it. Okay. Well, I guess that's where I'm sitting from now What's gonna happen from now on I get a lot of hunters neck
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Man Yeah, so like literally what we would say now as these slurs
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It kind of that's the kind of the vibe when I went to study This is like they're literally just calling him soft and it was about You could talk about the soft linens that the rich linens linens that the rich would wear.
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They're calling him soft They're calling him pampered. They're calling him Posh, you know,
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I'm saying preppy preppy like they're basically saying preppy and it's talking about your stance as a man has been
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Uprooted by your sexual stance as a woman in other words when it comes to sex You let yourself be treated like a woman.
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Mm -hmm. And so it's being it's called being soft and so that's basically what they're saying that was the word for it was just like if somebody has sex with another dude, they're
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Are our synecdoches or a synecdoche and that just means mostly soft.
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And so that's what it's talking about. That's mentioned in Corinthians Matthew Here comes another point so What literally what you just said was it was a status right that word applied to the status of a man
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Okay in Leviticus You can make the argument that that the the exact chapter and verse escapes me but you can make the argument that the verse that says if a man lays with another man in the way of a woman that is a abomination abomination
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We can they you could make the case that that is not talking about homosexuality.
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That is talking about culture Culturally, you're taking a man and lowering him to the stance of a woman which culturally at the time was not
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Very was not was not not a good thing. So that would be another argument for homosexuality is not a sin
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Thoughts I would say my main problem with that is the other 85 times Homosexuality in the Bible it wouldn't match up because you know the
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Bible You know, we talked about harmonetics a lot at this church And so when you look at one reference out of let's say a solid probably 10 or 15
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Instances where it specifically talks about homosexuality And you look at one reference and you pull what you think it means
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And it doesn't match up with what all the other ones mean You're putting you in the meaning so when you look at homosexuality like in that stance right there and you say that and Then you look at every other time where it splits explicitly just says homosexuality
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Males having sex with males is a sin It doesn't talk about blah blah lowering yourself to a woman doesn't put that in there
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Well, then if that if that part of Bible doesn't match with this part of the Bible You're wrong not the
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Bible you're changing the interpretation. So that's what I would say to someone who would say that is Okay, go read, you know
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Romans 1 27 where it specifically says it took Natural relationships between man and woman and gave those up for their own between two men
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It's absolutely right and you look at the vitical law And you wonder what's happening during that time?
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So in other words is saying a man should not lay with another man, that's an abomination
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The vitical law was being given out to a lawless place So basically these people were putting their newborn babies on burning statues you know
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I'm saying and not too different than their dinner partying around the child screaming and dying because they're sacrificing them to Their version their gods and so yeah mullet and so you have
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These set of Levitical laws and everybody says have you ever read Leviticus like it's ridiculous
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And it's like you still got to follow those laws. It's like no. Well Jesus kind of came to Rid like free us of the law and now now we have a whole new thing
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But you look at it and say okay, you think those are ridiculous and from our American standards yeah,
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I can I can see that just like stoning this guy because he Slept with your wife, or you know just like there are a whole bunch of really crazy things.
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It's fun to read But that came from these people are so incredibly terrible
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They really needed this spelled out and lawed down and you look at the word. It's an abomination and they get
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Worried they're like Abomination that's offensive. God says it's an abomination Love isn't an abomination
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Okay So you have to you honestly have to make this decision
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Do you care more about your personal feelings or about the Word of God? Do you which do you hold more true?
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Which is more important to you because if I hold my personal feelings more than I hold
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God and what he says then you're living for you, correct, correct And then then stop calling yourself a
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Christian exactly. I don't say that in a hateful way I say that in if it looks like a dog if it smells like a dog, it's a dog
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Mm -hmm, which is why I called you That's why I use that just like if it looks like a
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Christian if it acts like a Christian then it's a Christian I am NOT going to say that my words and my feelings are more important than what
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God says Just because what God says upsets me. I understand I dude It's hard you deal with something and you desperately want it to be right?
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I understand that but when God says that it's wrong well then therefore Your feelings and your desperation for it to be right outweighs what
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God says and you try and twist and disprove like no Like that that's where you made the mistake and also keep in mind it
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Yes, it says it's an abomination, but when it lists the seven sins that God find most detestable
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It's homosexuality listed in there. No, no and like four of them are lying Four of them are like different ways to lie and I mean pride's one of them more and Every single person falls under that.
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Oh, yeah. Yeah, not. Yeah. Yeah, well To so I'm taking off my hack
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Hector hat and putting putting back on my hat one thing that I think a lot of either
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Christians or non -christians who go oh Well that Leviticus Y 'all gotta follow all that.
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Don't you well? There's a something that we did when I was doing my independent study with Pastor Ben when he was here
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With MIT he showed me a clip from the West Wing which is a clip where the president comes in and there's a
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Rule, I guess she's a religious reporter or whatever and she's been making claims against Against his presidency or something and he comes in is like, oh, well my
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I want to sell my daughter Should I do should I do this or that and he starts quoting Levitical law making fun and making shaming her and The whole thing is if you you know, if you're gonna pick and choose
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The why why why do we pick and choose what we do Pastor Josiah actually has a thing on the
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YouTube channel Witten media ministry about picking and choosing so check that out.
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But anyway all that to say awesome Levitical Levitical law I think does more than is just the law.
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I think Levitical law. This is me personally I'm not saying scholarly This is what it is But I think what it does is it not only shows us what the laws were but it also gives us a character of who
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God is so what it It is an abomination
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God looks at it and goes I don't like that He looks at bestiality same way
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I don't like that the laws not only say what we can and can't do specifically to the
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Israelites What you can and cannot do in order to honor and glorify God. That's the whole purpose It's not because you shouldn't do this it's because this is what's honoring and not honoring to God So I would say that not only does
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Levitical law Which Christ did come and take care of? But it doesn't only give you rules.
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It gives you a glimpse into the character of who God is Because without it, we don't know we wouldn't know why we don't do the things we do.
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What's the what's Paul's? What's Paul what's the the verse I do the things
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I shouldn't do and Romans 7 Without at least knowing Levitical law
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You take you take the New Testament by itself. What is it quote most of the time the Old Testament Old Testament all the place so There's that's my point is we see the character of God through the
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Levitical law. It's not just a book of rules Yeah, I would just say back to the
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Leviticus being cultural you have to understand a Lot of you put the hat back.
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I put Hector's pet. Yeah, I'm Hector again, you know a lot of times To your example
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Jesus, let's say the Sermon on the Mount he's you know, he's saying, you know, you were told Don't kill all the one -ups.
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I tell you so he's not he's not saying the Old Testament's wrong. It's saying
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It's saying understand that The Old Testament is still valid But I'm after your heart the
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Old Testament is actions. God looks at your heart, man. So like You have to also understand that There is culture
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Influence in the Bible we do see that Especially in Paul's writings and stuff.
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He I mean he speaks Greek so, you know every language has their like Cultural influences into this language, you know, that's how we communicate is through language and it changes every year
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But God doesn't change so the words and the meaning and everything everything is the same
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So when Paul says to somebody hey stop doing this, you know It's good to know the story in the context to have good harmonetics, but you can't just say that's
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That's just cultural, you know, but the Bible is so old Yeah I mean we can't you can't define you cannot bring the
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Bible into this culture and not expect it this new Enlightened technological we're so much more advanced and we're so much smarter than we used to be.
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So why would we need? What what do you why do you hate my argument? My argument is true because I would
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I would honestly I honestly I'm a believer that The average human being has only become less intelligent
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No, so we have technology. It's like oh, you know what you won't we know now We know what the name of the second planet is and we know how many plants are in the solar system
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But we don't know not to eat Poison, we don't know not to eat high pods, you know
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But like so it's like who's really smarter smarter the person that makes your own food
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Farms does all their own work and provides for their family by himself Teaches kids do the same and is self -sufficient or the person that Knows the equation for standard deviation.
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I mean like really who's the more intellectual person? I don't know Standard deviation,
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I don't know what that is. So it's like if you have a whole bunch of numbers, okay Well, they lost me. I'm talking to the musician.
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I can count up to eight I like that because people 16 to equate other people's scientific accomplishments with a
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Cultural intelligence, so it's just like oh now we're so much smarter now.
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It's just like no The scientists are so much smarter now. You're still an idiot. Yeah, it's just like okay, but they just built off the next person
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They just got another stab. It's not great and it's all logged right here on your phone Yeah, can Google it?
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I know everything because of Google, right? I don't know what I can just look it up. I can look it up in 15 Yeah, I guarantee you and I just automatically retain any any person who calls themselves smart or scholar
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Let's go back and let's have you talk to Socrates to these big thinkers of way back when and see how how smart do you feel after that?
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You know I'm saying just like are you really smart smarter? Do you have more access or were one or two people?
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Make a really good advancement and you just claimed it as a society. So yeah Oh, that's our advancement
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Bill Gates says look what I did. We did that. We are so much smarter. No Yeah, I love that it was like when
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I think about like what pastor Jeff was talking about With Nehemiah traveling four months to go work.
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It's just like you guys that we can travel that in like a couple hours Yeah, just like you have to remember how much access what your big word?
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What how much access to knowledge they had versus us? I mean, they literally like when you were born at a place you were gonna live there
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Yeah, you knew a few hundred people like in that area. I mean you were not You know, you can't just go, you know, 150 miles away.
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That's uh, that's legit. That's a that's a travel Meanwhile, I am legit moving further south on Wednesday.
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Yeah, so I mean like that's stuff like that didn't happen back then Yeah, you didn't have the access. There's no library.
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No, nothing. See people figured stuff out by themselves That's why I'm a believer that people have become less and less intelligent because we have become more and more dependent less and less
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Independent so we will only become less intelligence because I view intelligence not by knowledge
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But can you how quickly do you learn knowledge? That's how it was your potential
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Exactly. Yeah, and just to go back onto the topic and I just wanted to say this one last thing because I Know it would be hurtful for me personally because nobody
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Nobody wants to be told that their father or even or their God looks at them and says
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You know I'm saying like and I know It's like and I say this to the person listening who struggles with homosexuality and believes in God It sucks to hear this is an abomination
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I it has to Has to coming from me from the age of 13 all the way up to about March of this year.
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It was it sucked because you want to please God you do and then everywhere you read it's wrong it's wrong and No matter how you take or interpret it yourself you like if you truly are the believer you will have that conviction you will have that conviction and Like for most my life.
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I had the conviction and it was like It's hard you like it really does suck because you're there and you want to please him and it always feels like at any moment
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You can just be like you're done One too many times you you messed up. I'm done with you
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It's that struggle with saying especially and I will bring up the culture, especially right now it's becoming so much more difficult for Christians who deal with homosexuality because I Want to be able to accept that part of myself, but I want to be able to please
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God and God calls it an abomination And so it's just like al this sucks, but it also doesn't help our culture today is very self -centered
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Oh, sure You need to figure out you you need to live your life and do this for you and you and you but if you're a
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Christian You can't do it for you. You have to do it for God. It's home It's so difficult to grasp the concept of deny yourself
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Pick up your cross and follow me daily. And it's what you do. It is So rewarding, oh, it's been free.
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It's life -changing you because you become a completely new creature But it's the idea that further than my own understanding
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Further than my own understanding So when I am confused when I don't understand why
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I have to have faith that God's reasoning is hot God's ways are higher than my ways. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts
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Romans 9. How untraceable are your ways? How unsearchable are your thoughts God is? Bigger better faster stronger, you know,
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I'm saying But I just wanted to say if you could Put away the hurts put away the offense put away the man
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This is really hard to hear that. This is a Abomination all that stuff look at it from God's perspective logically
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We claimed that there is a God Who spoke the world into existence and who created all things
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I believe he He is goodness he created science he created logic he created law
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And in that Sex is something that he created and he did not create it to be a bad thing
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Remember, he looked on the world said this is good Right, he created this to be a blessing and he created it with a definition
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This is what it is. This is what it is meant for So put yourself in God's shoes.
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I created something for my kids as a blessing they Decided to twist it manipulate it and take advantage of it and not glorify me not
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Thank me for what I've done But spit in my face turn it around make it something completely different so when he calls it, this is an abomination
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Is it a personal attack to your struggle? No, I don't think so Is it an attack to what you have done to his gift and his creation?
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Yes Mm -hmm what you have done to God with your actions? Yes so It sucks to hear that you're wrong.
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It sucks to hear that God says Hey, you're sinning but what sucks even more is realizing that I have taken something that God has given me as a blessing and completely twisted it and perverted it into something different and so I just wanted to say that before we moved on from that because I Know a lot of people have dealt with just like they get very upset or very hurt when it's like it's an abomination
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Well, yeah, dude. Well, but God doesn't want us to be lonely member in Genesis. He did say he put on the
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Hector head Okay He doesn't want us to be lonely remember he made he made Eve because he saw that Adam Adam was just gave that one way
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He saw that Man was lonely word. So he made a companion so if if I don't if I don't see homosexuality as a sin and If I am a homosexual,
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I'm not gonna find my companionship in a woman I'm gonna find my companionship in another man
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But he doesn't want me to be lonely. So thus it can't be a sin Right, that's that that makes total logical sense to me.
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Oh, totally Well, what's your opinion on that except for the fact that it it's going to be a sin okay, but it's not but the loneliness in that aspect of I mean and This is gonna be the one thing when when
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I had my struggle for the most part I constantly struggled with the fact of Like I want to be happy this is gonna be this over here or I'm gonna live a lonely life and I'm not that was like the two
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Outcomes that I could see I could either Like shut the door in God's face and live my life how I wanted or just be lonely and try to just get through life
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And then have the reward in heaven But then when you think like like Trying to put it back into like the words if you have the right relationship with God and you are with the like a true family of Believers like the body of Christ and you are an active member of it.
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You will not be lonely. You can't be lonely I mean it take me I moved away from my family
34:05
I'd there in the like couple 12 hours away from me. I Technically would be lonely if I wanted to be
34:13
I could just isolate myself from everybody and be lonely. I Could but she could be part of the community
34:19
But but then I could also be if I wanted to be a part of the gay community and not be lonely. However They kind of X list me quite a few times.
34:27
So it's fine because the cattiness and X's just wanted to be X's Kind of just an
34:34
X listed you. Yeah. Yeah, they X listed me I went I went fine I went to a gay club and I literally look got looked at and was like you don't belong here and I was like what?
34:47
And it was because my was the bartender and had told everybody that that apparently
34:52
I cheated when he cheated on me never Never have I ever Yeah heard about walking into a gay bar and hearing the sentence we don't like you're kind around Which I mean,
35:07
I don't know where y 'all are from Watching this if you if you are gay and you're watching this maybe your community is just better but here in Memphis They will come after you man
35:18
Yeah, that's just how it is and so for me like I got X listed from the community that is supposed to be accepting of me
35:26
Really? I know where to go and came back to church. Like that was really what it was I came back to church found the right body
35:33
Haven't had the struggle in a long time. Oh, yeah Yeah, no. No, I haven't had the struggle since March.
35:39
It's been wonderful. Dang. I know almost half a year And honestly and I can say this with just my experience
35:50
It's freeing It really is free when you like take up your cross and you die to yourself and you do what
35:56
God wants you to do It is so freeing. Yeah, and it but it's is after you had that can
36:01
I had the conviction long enough? I was just done with it. I literally said I'm done. Yeah, and went about my way and It's it's free.
36:09
And so for you to sit there and did not have the conviction then there you're not saved You're not you can't be because you have to have the conviction
36:18
Man I mean we want to talk about Loneliness God doesn't want me to be lonely.
36:24
Therefore. He will settle for or even worse to claim he will support my homosexual marriage because of that So supporting, huh?
36:38
All right. Well, so all right. Well, hang on. Hang on before you continue. Okay, let me let me go ahead and add the next point
36:47
So Dead gum it I Just love it when you're
36:53
Hector, I love I love this so It's not a sin I mean,
37:00
I'm gonna make that definitive statement. It's not a sin. He's playing the role. He's playing the role Yeah, maybe they haven't told you what my new answer the
37:08
Hector episode was was they might not have seen it Hector is a character that we play who not a character
37:17
He's a persona that we play Advocate of the devil's advocate his name is
37:25
Hector and he can inhabit any one of us at any time Oh, I'm a good Hector on every other day then
37:33
Okay, okay, so I'm a sec, all right, it's not a sin Sure, if I am in a committed
37:43
Faithful Homosexual relationship God will honor it because it
37:49
I'm not cheating. I'm not committing adultery with another man I am in a steady relationship and I and I am fully believing that if I have if I adopt the child
38:01
Or if we have a surrogate Mother adopt whatever we adopt the child
38:08
That child is gonna be in a perfect household because it's gonna be two people who love each other and we're totally fine
38:16
I think God will honor that. All right Well, first of all, like one statement on the loneliness thing.
38:22
God didn't care if Paul was lonely. He never asked him agree to With that thing.
38:29
We're saying it's not a sin because it's not adultery Yeah, lying is not adultery, but it's still a sin.
38:35
So it doesn't matter if you're not committing adultery or not That's just a sin. It's not doesn't mean, you know any relationship
38:41
That doesn't really mean anything. You can do many sins and it not be adultery, you know, like an example homosexuality
38:56
Toxic man, that is what you are. Thank you showing your toxic masculinity because Adultery can only happen
39:04
Adultery is only possible if you are married so an unmarried person cannot commit adultery
39:10
So yeah, you can do many sins and not be adultery. So you can commit metaphorical adultery as the church
39:19
Wait, wait a minute. Can you wait a minute back that up? You said you can't commit adultery unless you're married.
39:25
Is that what you said? Uh Yeah, I mean unless you want to talk about like what he's talking about what are you talking about like You could metaphorically commit adultery like as the church like against God, you know when
39:38
God calls Israel a whore, right? Like you can commit adultery against God by giving yourself over to your desires
39:47
In any way like let's just say homosexuality Okay, and to your point,
39:52
I guess what you're about to say is what if you have sex with another married person? I would say the married person would commit adultery you what's the word for it?
39:59
What's the word for it? Right? No, I Don't know what what's the name for the sin of sex before marriage?
40:07
What are they call? Okay, can you give me the letter it starts with No See for an occasion for an occasion.
40:17
That's what I was gonna say. I really don't want to be Before marriage and then you know adultery would be after marriage.
40:24
Okay. All right still Great rebuttal
40:35
So, let's just talk about this God has never a loving relationship
40:44
Therefore everything else is okay So long as I since when did God give you the parameters so long as you love your partner everything else you do is fine
40:53
Never okay This is what we call logical fallacies
40:59
This is what we call a really great stumbling block for the Christian, especially for the sympathetic or empathetic
41:05
Christian who? whose heart breaks to see other people struggle and is difficult and then they hop on tumblr or they hop on reddit and They will see
41:15
God is okay with it. So long as you love your partner and you'll say man you know what that makes sense because God said love your wife like Christ loved the church and God said that Adam was lonely and that's not good.
41:27
So that he made Eve like Okay, you take two valid points and completely twist them to fit your agenda
41:35
Because you don't want to offend or make somebody sad It's like I get it.
41:41
It's not great to make somebody sad when somebody really wants one thing and you have to say yeah
41:48
But at the end of the day, it's not them rejecting you when they get mad at you for that they are rejecting
41:54
Christ Let's read in the Bible right here in 1st Corinthians chapter 7. This is Paul He says
41:59
I say to the unmarried and to the widows it is good for them if they remain as I am Single, but if they do that's not part of it.
42:07
That was just my clarification But if they do not have self -control they should marry for it is better to marry than to burn with desire in other words
42:14
If you struggle too much with sexual sin and then get a wife, but he's saying in his opinion is
42:21
Better for you to be single So we literally read in the
42:27
Bible That Paul, I mean, this is Paul Right wrote like half of this thing.
42:34
You know I'm saying the New Testament word This is literally
42:39
Paul dude, and he is saying yeah, it's Really in all honesty
42:44
Better that you remain single But marry if you need to marry and God and there's
42:52
God literally instituted marriage God created marriage It doesn't mean that it's bad. He's just saying there are a lot of benefits to remaining single especially in the ministry
43:02
That's what he's saying. So how do we marry? The idea that God will go against what he says and go against his standards so long as you are nice to your spouse and love them and the idea that Paul literally said
43:23
Even better if you don't have to be married. I know my thing is when you do the little jumpy No, but so like my parents love me
43:34
I know that I I'm glad it stops there Okay, like I'm glad it doesn't go any further because if we're going off of the logic that you're saying
43:42
I don't want my dad or mom touching me or any stuff like that like that. They're my parents
43:48
I love them in that aspect Just like I love my brothers and I love my sisters
43:53
I'm not going to go around and touching and groping and grabbing and all that stuff. Okay, cuz that's Disgusting.
44:00
I love my car, but I'm not gonna be in a relationship with my car. I love like diction Yeah, so there's there's yeah but but if we give it in my like like if I'm loving and honoring in that aspect and they love and honor me back
44:13
Then then if I was to accidentally, you know then If you were to actually what like, okay, you know,
44:21
I'm wiping his arm But if I were to accidentally like or or if I just wanted to then then it's okay
44:29
God honors it because we're in a loving committed relationship. Oh I did not get your point until that last
44:39
Okay, yeah, okay, so you're saying the prerequisite being a loving committed relationship therefore in their logic might
44:51
Excuse certain sexual actions inadvertent or on purpose I mean pedophilia and bestiality and all that stuff.
44:59
I mean, I think Hopefully as a society we can all say that is gross and disgusting and wrong for now
45:06
Like what he said for now, but it's one of those If we're going off of that logic
45:13
Everything's permissive and everything's good. Well Yeah, there's that famous debate between Dawkins there's another atheist came over who is in a
45:23
Christian and the Christian asked him that He asked him he said
45:29
You know is incest bad and they said oh, yeah, you know, it's very bad for genetics he goes what if it's non
45:35
Basically male or male or female and female? Because then it wouldn't be bad, you know genetically because they can't really and the atheists were like and then
45:43
Christians like say that's okay say it's not weird and they were just like They couldn't say it's not weird, but they couldn't say it's weird
45:58
They're like hot because they're like yeah, because we all have this understanding and knowledge of morality See, that's the
46:04
Christian what the Christian was saying is cuz we know what's a Fred Turek? That's it.
46:09
That's what I was gonna make a huge argument of his I doubt Frank Turek took on.
46:14
No, he didn't I can't remember who it was. It wasn't all knows. There's a wasn't Lennox There's a
46:20
Ben Stein movie that was really good called expelled and it's talking about it's it's more on the atheistic side, but it's
46:27
It's him going to different universities and asking basically why these creationists believing scientists got canned and it's because they believe that Even even if it's just one point of creationism
46:42
You're an idiot get out You can't you cannot be scientific if and at the very end he interviewed the man himself
46:50
Richard Dawkins and If you haven't seen it It is worth the watch it is very interesting where he where they end up it's really cool
47:00
It's called expelled expelled Ben Stein the guy from the I the eyedrop commercials way back in the day.
47:08
Oh Yeah, that means I had your eye Be dry like that that that's my impression of Bill.
47:15
It's not I can't fantastic. I don't know Yeah, I don't get on YouTube.
47:20
It's there Where we at where we talking about So we've talked about its homosexuality is sin we've talked about the homosexuality the word in the
47:35
Greek We've spoken about whether or not a homosexual marriage is honored by God if it's committed to one
47:41
Okay, so let me attack this one a little bit more and let's say this a homosexual marriage
47:48
Being honored by God given that it is a committed and loving relationship Not only is that nowhere in Scripture Anywhere like the entire premise let me let me say this even more marriage
48:07
Homosexual marriage does not exist It doesn't exist
48:12
Wow, it does not exist but love one a couple Love one in 2016 or something like that love one gay marriage doesn't exist marriage
48:25
Originated that's biblically So therefore let's talk about definition
48:32
God created marriage. Okay, if you don't believe in God then the guy who wrote the Bible created marriage
48:38
There's multiple guys that wrote the Bible. Yeah, whatever But you see what I'm saying? Yeah, the look up.
48:45
Look let's look at the etymology of marriage We're all way back down to the beginning of the concept of one person being with another person
48:54
Becoming one that is Bible whether you believe it was written by Somebody to get money or if you believe it was
49:06
Breathed and inspired by God That's where that came from and it is defined as such for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife and the two will become one flesh a man a
49:17
Woman under God that is marriage That is marriage. Mm -hmm. Everything else is a legal union
49:24
Okay, so is there gay marriage? No, is there legal union of a man and a man or a woman and a woman?
49:31
Absolutely, that's obvious their marriage certificates or whatever they call it marriage because they hijacked the work
49:37
Yeah, no people always asked me when I was in the scene and they would be like Oh, but you're a
49:42
Christian if you got married or like like well, would you get married and I'm like no and they're like well
49:48
Well, what do you mean? I'm like I wouldn't if I was to marry a guy I would have never called it a marriage.
49:55
I just wouldn't because the marriage is between a man and a woman I would simply say it's a union ship. So that's even when you were in rebellion and all that you still said
50:04
No, it is what it is. Yeah At the end of the day I knew
50:09
I like I you know what you're doing a sin It's like the law of the law was written on their hearts or something.
50:15
Yeah Eternity written in their hearts. Now see I I had the privilege of growing up in a
50:22
Christian family. So I had this Understanding that this biblical understanding at a very young age.
50:27
Oh, then you were just brainwashed. Yeah. Oh totally totally 13 obviously
50:37
I still wanted to like yeah, you just did we all do but but that's all night I experienced life and realized it.
50:45
It's not all that It really isn't that you want to follow God's law. Then you need to do what he has to say, right?
50:52
So in that sense the homosexual gay marriage does not exist so does
50:58
God honor a gay marriage No, you know, I don't care what you do in that gay marriage. You could be the two greatest dudes or girls on the planet you can have all the
51:12
Most what is it charity and you can give and you can be kind and you can be great people
51:19
Great people legitimate great people that everybody loves to be around and God will say depart from me.
51:27
I never knew you not because I'm not going to honor your works just the same way as I'm not going to honor hunters works or ceases works
51:41
Right, were you saved by your works? I was saved by grace. Oh, that's crazy Because it seems to me
51:48
That if God were to honor a homosexual marriage because of their works it would go against everything in the
51:54
Bible not only is it found in the Bible it would go against the entire premise of salvation and grace and mercy and Everything because God would have said your works are sufficient and they have overridden what
52:08
I have said Yeah, oh, okay. That's insane. I mean,
52:13
I mean, that's crazy I wish that something I could do could overwrite the Word of God, but it's just not gonna happen guys um, yeah, no,
52:23
I used to have dreams growing up of like Shouldn't say dreams like when I was asleep I would often daydream sure of of God literally like pulling me aside and being like hey
52:33
I know this is a sin but because of you I'm gonna change the word
52:39
That's not the case. It'll never happen Quickly had to realize that it was never gonna happen.
52:45
But yeah, it's but God did change his mind a couple of times Mind All right.
52:53
Which one are you referring to? Are you referring to Abraham? Are you referring to anytime that anytime that a man?
53:03
Practices will to change the mind of God So Abraham and any
53:09
Old Testament change so we should have an episode on that or maybe Absolutely tend to listen to a question where we pretend that one of you actually we really asked it.
53:18
That's it It said that God changed his mind when
53:26
I tell you this over the city of Sodom my Mike Mike Freeman love the guy to death.
53:32
He he sent a message. He sent a question today and by the way, if you would like to submit your question to the
53:41
This is not to the point taken. Thank you. Yes, you can find the link right cut there
53:47
Says please right there right here. Just email us with your question
53:53
Listen point taken at gmail .com He submitted one that I thought was kind of interesting and I think we should tackle next time and our next season
54:04
What Would happen if God today were to run for presidency Very interesting question.
54:10
I don't know that just it's a good one It's a good one that we could talk about that for a minute.
54:16
That'd be fun. Most Christians would not vote for him Please do not spoil our next episode.
54:23
Yes Not a white
54:28
Republican, I don't want to Joking joking No, he's the president do it.
54:37
No, he's the president you said Joe's King Pastor Josiah in here.
54:48
That's true. All right, so let's I would like to end this episode
54:55
By Going around and just saying if you got anything on your heart regarding this message, what would you say to?
55:04
somebody who believes in God and struggles with homosexuality And then so we'll go say
55:11
Andrew David and then I'll just close this out. Okay, so he's what would you have to say to them?
55:18
I would quote pastor Jeff a lot But I would basically just you know say to anybody who struggles with homosexuality
55:33
Know that Homosexuality is a sin just like every other sin and the fact that God doesn't like God doesn't love it
55:45
God hates it sin and There is always grace there is always a way because of the sacrifice that Jesus made
55:56
There is no one too far no one to Outcast no one out of God's reach.
56:04
Yeah And that The Christian community who are actually believers
56:14
Will show you love To not look to Westboro or someone like that, but that It is a sin just like every other sin and There is always grace.
56:31
His grace is sufficient It is Bounds far more than any sin you could commit
56:40
And then the last thing I would say is a term we've used a lot today his term struggle and Since pastor
56:50
Josiah is on this podcast. I'm sure he's defined struggle a couple of times What if I just remember if you have one never mentioned it if you've never watched, you know another episode, you know
56:59
Maybe this is the first episode you've seen of this podcast Remember what the word struggle means you have to think about what does it mean to struggle with homosexuality, you know definition of struggle, you know would be a violent fighting of Something so if you're struggling with homosexuality, that's good.
57:20
Remember that's that's proper That means you might be a Christian if you're struggling homosexuality, that's good
57:26
I mean you are fighting not you're fighting to honor God you're fighting to glorify him
57:32
So I want to encourage anybody who's in that state Keep up the good fight find brothers and sisters in Christ who will hold you accountable.
57:41
Love you support you In doing the right thing not enabling amen
57:51
So to quote the quote Michael Jack, but not Michael Jackson quote Michael Jordan stop it get some help
58:05
What a terrible transition But it's a whole change
58:16
I Truly if you are struggling with this And of course, I'm a straight guy
58:22
So maybe me saying this is not going to help you any stretch the imagination but if you are actually struggling with this and you're having that struggle because even even the straight guys
58:36
Have their own problems. They have to deal with when it comes to sexual immorality. So Truly Start working at stopping and start reading scripture for scripture
58:50
I started I started my time with this saying Okay last week. I answered the question with a one -word answer.
58:57
I said yes, and that was as far as I went So what I did this week was
59:03
I studied it a little more and I've got I got the spirit of Hector today.
59:08
Yes, so What we have now is I Still say yes, it is a set.
59:15
It is a sin because You cannot twist
59:22
Scripture to match what you want it to say that is I Would go so far to say it's blasphemy if you're going to say that it is condoned it is
59:35
God condones it God loves it God wants it for you.
59:41
Then you're not reading the Bible No, you are reading would be I so Jesus I said Jesus if you are reading yourself into scripture.
59:48
There's a problem Yeah, because that's not it. So if you are struggling with it you
59:54
I would highly recommend you find someone else Find someone who ask your pastor ask a deacon ask an elder ask.
01:00:04
However, your church government is Ask someone in leadership to help you and then get yourself plugged into a
01:00:12
Support group not like I'm not saying anything bad about like a or anything like that but get yourself plugged into an accountability group that will hold you to that will be on your case if you do something if you're if you are
01:00:26
As we say around here if you're looking at www .hotpastors .com Then you need someone that's gonna check your phone and say hey, why is that in your search history, right?
01:00:37
So that's that's that's my thing. If if if you are struggling with it get some help and Just and it's not an easy battle.
01:00:48
I mean when we get to you in just a second I'm pretty sure you're gonna be able to say a lot more accurately than me
01:00:54
It is it's a struggle you have to fight it and if you don't fight it you will lose
01:00:59
That's that's just what's gonna happen And then you're gonna get so you're gonna get you're gonna feel all this conviction or you're for all this
01:01:06
Well, God doesn't use guilt But you're gonna feel guilt and then you're gonna if you are of the
01:01:11
Spirit if you are one of God's children You will feel conviction that conviction will weigh and weigh and weigh you down Until eventually you can't stand it and you're gonna break and then
01:01:20
God will use you there Brother David, all right well,
01:01:28
I Being gay is not an identity.
01:01:33
It's not it can't be it's a it's a Characteristic of you your identity is who you make yourself to be and as a
01:01:42
Christian your identity is supposed to be in Christ With that being said I have always stated my identity is in Christ.
01:01:49
I'm a Christian first and foremost, then I'm a white male Republican gun -toting
01:01:55
Bible -thumping whatever you want to put in there that all comes after the Christian and so in order for me to be the
01:02:03
Christian and to be who I'm supposed to be I have I have to follow what God says and Unfortunately for my desires.
01:02:11
It says it's a sin. So it's Homosexuality is a sin point -blank. You see it everywhere in the
01:02:17
Bible if you state otherwise Like how you said you're just simply not reading it and if you're translating it and or you are reading it and you're translating it wrong
01:02:26
Then you need to go find a different church or a different pastor or a different friend group or someone that actually represents what a
01:02:33
Christ like follower is gonna be I Found that here at this church.
01:02:39
I'm so thankful that I did Because I mean when I came in I was still going on dates, you know trying to find someone and And since March of this year, it's been about half of a year now,
01:02:54
I haven't had any desire to do that When I died to myself in my desires and my wants life just got better.
01:03:02
It honestly has God's giving me more opportunities with jobs with other stuff.
01:03:08
Like my life is going in the upward direction Because I made the decision that that I'm not going to fight with this anymore now now yes
01:03:16
Is it still a struggle? There's always gonna be a struggle aspect to it my life. I have a past I I mean within six years.
01:03:25
I don't know how many I'll be honest. I don't I don't know how many men I've been with I don't
01:03:31
And and but it's it's that whole Like I have the past I have a damaged mindset of how how will my future wife perceive me?
01:03:41
Certain things work out for my future because of how I've acted and behaved in the past The past is always gonna come back and haunt you it will always come back
01:03:51
So in with with saying that with how do you want your past to look In order for it to not come back and bite you in the butt
01:04:01
My life has been changed it's been great and I will state I've always been a
01:04:06
Christian But to live the actual Christian lifestyle It's hard, but but it's it's good and it's something that I want for everybody obviously
01:04:18
God gives us the choice. Have you done the podcast on free will yet? Not yet. Not yet. All right
01:04:24
Well, maybe in the future, but I firmly believe God gives you the choice to do whatever you want So if you want to go ahead and do that, go ahead go do it
01:04:31
But do not call yourself at one of my brothers It's that simple Because I I don't want my name and my
01:04:40
Belief to be tarnished by someone else stating that it is accepting. It is. Okay. It is good when it's not
01:04:47
And that's coming from someone who was Would be considered still is by society standards
01:04:53
It's not okay and and it needs to be corrected in one's mind you can't correct the world
01:05:01
We're just slowly going to hell It's what we we just needed you you need to get
01:05:09
I don't know how to describe it. It's like a switch just flipped in my mind and Everything else has just gotten better.
01:05:17
I'm happier than I used to be I still deal with a little bit of anger issues, but I think there's primarily work issues
01:05:26
But but it yeah, it's like I'm not I don't fear the loneliness like I used to I don't fear
01:05:32
What people might think of me I am confident in who I am as a Christian and as a believer in Christ and Yeah, no.
01:05:41
Well, I have a past I'm owning up to it and I'm not gonna live that way Wow, nice What I would say to the struggling homosexual is and It'll echo the first point that David made is finding your identity
01:06:01
If You're a struggling homosexual and you've made homosexuality your identity whether it be
01:06:09
Inadvertent due to what you see everywhere and with your community in your hometown or in the media
01:06:17
In the homosexual community or whether you did it in a way As a way to accept who you are
01:06:26
If you've made that your identity When it is called out, it will call out the very depths of who you believe that you are
01:06:36
And that's difficult and you're putting yourself in a position to fail as in if I were to say my entire identity is the car that I drive if Somebody were to say that the car that I drive
01:06:51
Needs an oil change then It will hurt me to the depths of my soul because they have said that I need to change something about the thing that With which
01:07:00
I identify That is a silly Example for a point that I think is very crucial
01:07:10
Try not if this is to the believer who struggles with homosexuality try not to identify yourself with Either a your struggle or be if you're not struggling with it your desire
01:07:27
Your identity should be follower slave of Christ That's it.
01:07:35
Then Jesus says They don't reject you.
01:07:41
They reject me Because you and I are one He greater is he that is in me than any that is in the world so I would just say remember that God is bigger than your struggles and Though he goes against what you desperately want that does not make him wrong.
01:08:06
That does not make him hateful That does not make his followers hateful that just makes him the maker of reality and You have to decide whether or not you want to grasp that reality or if you want to run away from it, um,
01:08:23
I Would say to the Christian who doesn't know how to deal with this question
01:08:29
There are those that struggle like Hey, somebody just told me that they struggle with homosexuality or somebody just said it's okay to be gay and to be a
01:08:41
Christian I was like Let me give you some advice You deal with that the exact same way you would deal with any other sin
01:08:49
Any other sin? Hey, somebody just came up to me and told me they've been struggling with gossip
01:08:57
Okay Gossiping is a sin I've Gossiped in the past God has died for all of our sins
01:09:07
All you have to do is accept his gift That is the gospel the good news of Jesus Christ that he did not wait for you to be better He did not wait for you to say.
01:09:17
I'm sorry. He did not wait for you to even want his gift He said I'm going to come meet you where you are and I'm going to die for you
01:09:24
So that you will be forgiven and that you can be with me for all eternity The sin of homosexuality is dealt with like this
01:09:34
Jesus has a power that is greater than any sin or any
01:09:40
Inconvenience in our life and his blood covers a multitude of sins that is certainly included
01:09:50
Speak truth in love and first Peter 3 5 it says always be ready to give a defense for the hope that is in you and be able to instruct with gentleness and compassion
01:10:03
Do what is right with love in your heart with the aim I Want to reconcile this person with Christ Remember sin is defined as separation from God When I said in the last episode sin is sin is sin is sin doesn't matter what you label it doesn't matter if I label it gossip or homosexuality or Lustful eyes of a heterosexual doesn't matter.
01:10:30
I am separating myself from God regardless in America Killing somebody is certainly worse than having sex with a man
01:10:41
Make sense But when I both actions separate myself from God, who am
01:10:47
I to say this one is worse than the other? I'm separating myself from God So in love tell them
01:10:58
God came not to divide you from him, but to reconcile you to him If you accept his gift
01:11:06
Then you will be saved and be made a new creature. I don't care what you label your sin God is bigger than the boogeyman
01:11:17
Monsters on TV, I'm so glad you said that honestly because as we were going around I like had that thought
01:11:22
I was like wow Man, do you know what group of people we didn't talk to? Christians who don't struggle with homosexuality.
01:11:29
Yep It sounded so good you said that cuz I was like man cuz so many people are like Especially I had that thought when
01:11:35
David was talking on his final remark because he said, you know Tell talk to you or one of you actually you said talk to your pastor talk to your deacon talk to and I was like But man, is it so up?
01:11:47
To that other believer you'll be mature enough. Mm -hmm because there's so many people like oh He shows
01:11:53
I'm like should he be in this church? Oh my gosh, man You know, he or she committed adultery it looks like we just lost another member it's like oh, okay
01:12:04
Okay. So every time you sin you have to leave the church So make sure that you are mature enough
01:12:11
To handle that and if you're not You are at fault if you're not mature enough Yeah To handle it is worse exactly the one who's repentant of their sin or the one who
01:12:21
Rejects that because of their pride and to go off of what you said Like if if you are a struggling one and and you go to somebody and they reject you
01:12:29
Obviously, they have something to work on go find a real church. Like There's a difference when
01:12:36
I like a lot of churches nowadays To the body that goes there.
01:12:41
It's the building Whereas here with is definitely known that the body of Christ the church is the people
01:12:47
Go find a different church a real church That pours into you that that loves on you
01:12:55
For who you are as a person not not for what you have
01:13:02
But so there's that I do want to throw in one other thing though sure if you are a struggling
01:13:08
Christian and and you feel like like you're just gonna be like It shouldn't say struggling if you're struggling homosexual in the church and and you just don't know really who to go to It's it's
01:13:26
It sounded so much better in my head than I went to go say it Like there is hope there is hope for third ever since the age of 13 to about 24
01:13:39
I was living that hopeless kind of like oh if things will it'll just get better over time
01:13:45
It got better over time, but that was when I made the decision it will get better But once you make the decision it has to be you
01:13:52
It can't be me or how what I'm saying where my experience is convicting you of something
01:13:57
It has to be you to make the decision to change from your sin and that goes against any sin pornography lust
01:14:05
Lying stealing like all you have to be the one to make the decision and once you do it
01:14:11
It just it just gets better take my word for it. I am living proof It just gets better You still struggle, but it it's a lot lesser.
01:14:21
So if there's one thing to take away from this episode Complete submission to God is more freeing than complete
01:14:29
Freedom to explore your own desire or self Yeah, I thought about the verse like three times, you know, take my yoke for it is easy.
01:14:36
My burden is light Cuz like he keeps on talking about like it's so much easier so much for you
01:14:41
I'm like, yeah, it's cuz it's a lighter burden first John chapter 5 for my his commandments are not a burden
01:14:48
Exactly if you're afraid of being lonely, I mean, it's lonelier in hell Oh Brimstone to end this
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