Beautiful Argument w/Mormon at the Temple

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This church is teaching you a false Christ. You're on public property now, sir. God says,

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I am the Lord, I do not change. But he does change. The Bible says he doesn't. Have you guys seen these before?

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No. Were you guys born and raised LDS? Sure. Yeah? We're Christians, we love you guys, we care about you, we love your community.

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It's some basic teachings of the Latter -day Saint church. There's quotes from Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, something like that.

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And it just compares them to the scriptures on the other side. So it's just kind of a thing you can kind of work through. You can look and research this by yourself at home.

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You can look up all the sources and documents, compare it to the scriptures. And on the back is the gospel. And I'm Jeff.

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Did I say my name was Jeff? Yeah. Yeah? Okay. He said Jeff. Okay. Yeah. So, like I said, we love you guys.

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And our big, just so you know, why are we here? Why would we do something like this? Jehovah's Witnesses say

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Jesus Christ. They say salvation. But they believe something about Jesus Christ that we would all disagree with.

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They believe he's Michael the archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. Muslims believe they say

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Jesus Christ, but they say that Jesus Christ is not the divine son of God. He didn't die on a cross. You know that, yeah.

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So he didn't rise from the dead. Mormons say Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father, salvation, grace, faith,

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Bible, all those things. But we mean entirely different things. So, for example, we believe there's only one

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God, none before, none after. And God says in his word, Isaiah 4310, says, Before me there was no

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God formed, neither shall there be after me. I'm the first. I'm the last. Besides me there is no God. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, okay, but Joseph taught that we've imagined and supposed that God was

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God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see. He denied that God has been

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God from all eternity. He taught that there were many gods before God. You can become one one day.

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So our hope is that you guys would see our heart for you. We love you. We care for you. And we believe that Joseph taught a different God and a different way to God.

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We appreciate what you're doing because we believe strongly in our church that you should seek after your own confirmation and not just blindly believe.

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We've all received personal revelation that our church is true. What would you say to the Muslim? What would you say to the

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Muslim that says he's received personal revelation that Jesus didn't die? To be honest I've never had experience with any

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Muslim beliefs. I'm not very familiar with them. But I think everybody is just doing the best they can to figure out what they believe to be right and true.

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What is the truth? What would you say? What's the truth? The truth? Yeah. You mean like the true church?

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Yeah, yeah. What would you say? I mean I'm a member of the LDS church and I believe with my whole heart that it's true.

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But not just because I was born into it. Just like living my life and searching up the scriptures and praying for my own answers.

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That's how I've come to believe. That first part you said there resonates with me. Search out the scriptures.

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Right. And that's kind of like our biggest concern is that we believe that say for example when it says in John 1 that Jesus created everything in existence and nothing came into existence apart from him.

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So that means that Jesus is the creator of everything including Lucifer. So if you search the scriptures it says that Jesus created

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Satan. But in Latter Day Saints communion you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

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Spiritual offspring of Elohim. So those are two different Christs. They're not the same. And Jesus said

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I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. I don't believe the Muslim Jesus can save.

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It's a fictional character. He doesn't exist. And we can say the word Jesus Christ but if we don't have the right

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Christ we're lost. Well I mean like I said we appreciate that you're like us.

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I think in your reference to the Bible. Yeah.

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Right. So I don't know if you guys how familiar you are with Mormon. I mean it seems like you guys know.

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Lots of Mormon. I actually just had dinner with one of my good Mormon buddies. He's been a Mormon apologist for many many years.

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Lots of friends. Yeah. But right we believe in the Bible. Yes. As far as it's translated correctly. So for me kind of part of the issue is that any reference to the

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Bible. There are so many different religions. Right. Well not just religions. Christian sects, faiths.

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Right. So you have the Catholic Church. You have Protestants. You have. And that was kind of the.

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So you asked me why I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. He kind of ran into the same conundrum.

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He was like well which do I join. Right. Because they all understand the Bible so differently.

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Right. You can read a passage and think well interpret it a certain way and say well that's. You know and then

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I might read it and interpret a certain way. But who's right. And then. And that's. So that was kind of your question is how do you get to the truth.

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So Joseph Smith asked God. Right. And that kind of like my wife said

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I've done the same thing. I've prayed and I've received spiritual confirmation. Confirmation that I can't really like explain to you guys.

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Yeah. Like in a logical way. But it's just something that I know is true.

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And so. I appreciate your. Do you believe that. You believe that God gave that revelation. Scripture right.

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Absolutely. So if you and I had a belief about God that was contrary to what he revealed in his word.

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Who's right. The word or us. Well here's the thing. The revelation that's given in the

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Bible. It's been passed through many hands. To us.

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Yeah. And so. Do you believe that God has divinely inspired it. That's the thing.

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I mean. Divinely inspired the original authors. Absolutely. Do you believe that.

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Do you believe that Jesus when he said heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will by no means pass away. You wouldn't.

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You wouldn't believe that. Go ahead. No. But.

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You might ask what. What words. Whose words. He says.

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That's why we believe in the Book of Mormon. Yeah. He said. He said. He said his words would never pass away. And. Sorry about that.

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So he says words will never pass away. It's not the only place to. It says in the. In Isaiah. The grass withers. The flower fades.

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But the word of our God stands forever. So Joseph came along about 2000 years after Christ. And he denied that.

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He said that. It did in fact. Fall away. There was in fact. A loss of the revelation of God.

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And he had to fix it. And there were. It was missing many plain and precious parts. He says. Yeah. So that's a denial of what

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Jesus says. So again. It's back to. Who do we believe. Jesus or Joseph. But is that what.

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Jesus. Is that what Jesus meant. When he said that. Sure. Yeah. I can give you a number of places where God promises.

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That his word is firmly fixed forever. In the heavens. And it would never pass away. And Joseph came and said.

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No that's not true. It's. It's been corrupted. But at the same time. I mean.

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So you. As far as the origins of the Bible. You don't think that it's been changed at all. Well.

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Over translations. And just. You know. Well meaning people possibly. Well yeah.

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It's one of the. I think. For me. It's one of the most amazing things about. What Jesus said. Is if you know where the Bible came from.

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And how we got it today. You know the difference between transmission. And translation. Transmission is the transmission of the original language.

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Right. It's copies of the original language. Sure. And we translate from those texts. Into other languages. So. When someone says.

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It's a bad translation. What I say is. Well. Study Greek. And give us a better one. If you don't like the translation.

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Read it. Give it. Give your own translation. Because the transmission is from the original language. And we have copies.

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We have over 5 ,700 manuscript pieces. And copies of the original Greek New Testament. Over 19 ,000 early translations.

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In other words. All put together. If you stacked all of our New Testament documents. On top of each other. It would literally be over a mile deep.

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I know. I have no doubt. That we have a lot of documents. So. So we can go through those. Back to the.

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And get to the autographa. The original text. I think. I think. But is that the original text?

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Sure. Or was that the text of Mark and Matthew? Well. Sure. I mean. I think fundamentally. You have to say. Do you believe

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Jesus. Can preserve his word. Like he said. Or do you believe Joseph. A 19th century

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American prophet. Who says that he didn't. Well. I mean. Here's the thing.

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Do you see. You see what I'm saying. You know. Yeah. It's a big. It's a really big collision. Yeah. I mean.

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I've been on a mission. I've been a missionary. Where did you go? I had this discussion. I went to Mexico. Mexico. That was fantastic. So you speak

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Spanish. And right on. Okay. You know. I've had this discussion a lot. Yeah. And really.

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The only answer I can give you. Is that. I've read the Book of Mormon. And I know that it's true.

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And. Our. Invitation. To everyone.

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Is to read the Book of Mormon. Right. I have. I have. But which one should I read. That would be a question.

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I always ask my Mormon friends that question. Because I. I've had so many Mormon friends that ask me. Read the Book of Mormon Jeff. And so I say

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I have. But which version. The 1830 version. Or today's version. Because there's about 4 ,000 changes.

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From the original. 1830 published text. To today's text. It's a big deal. Right. Is it.

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I mean. It is. It is. What are the changes. Significant doctrinal changes. I've got a copy of it in my bag. If you'd like to see it. Significant doctrinal changes.

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Passages. And sentences taken out. It's. It's. It's substantial. I know that we often hear from.

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From Mormon apologists. And. Things that. They're just more like spelling errors. Things like that. But there's significant doctrinal changes.

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And things like that. And you can. You can say that. But. Can you change the fact that I prayed about it. And I know that it's true.

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Well. Can you. Can you tell me how you would answer this. Because you're. You're a sweet man. And. I really want to know. How would you answer this.

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So say. Say we took that. And said you prayed about it. It feels true to you. Right. Now let's say that you were.

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You were trying to minister to a young couple at your church. That was say. Nineteen. Twenty years old. Sure. They're hanging out.

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Like at midnight together. And you know. Watching TV together at night. You know. Netflix and chill. Right. That's what they're doing.

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And. So they're hanging out. And they're sleeping together outside of marriage. And then you talk to them. You're like hey. Brother.

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Like you can't live like that. Sexual immorality. God says flee sexual immorality. You can't live that way. And they say to you.

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You don't understand. We've prayed about it. And we believe that God has blessed us and put his hand on it. And we believe that God is okay with us.

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And we feel. We feel in our hearts. We've received personal revelation from God that this is okay. How would you answer that.

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I mean. Well I see your point. But it's. Strongly. But I would definitely say that.

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If it's contrary to God's commandments. You can't do that. There you go. Right.

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Where are those commandments? You're kind of making. You're kind of making an assumption that. The Mormons have broken some sort of commandment.

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Oh no. I'm not giving you a specific. Well I mean. You're saying that. So you're using scriptures to say that my.

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You know. God's word will not pass away. Which I. I completely agree with. Well you don't though. Do you? Not really. Well.

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But who says that God can't add to his word. Well Joseph said it was missing many plain and precious parts. Sure. Yeah.

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Through. Because of. I mean. The Bible is. Has. Has. Had.

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Plain and precious parts taken out of it. Well we can. We can demonstrate that that's not true. But. And Jesus affirmed that that wouldn't be true.

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But. Well. I mean. That takes like. A long time of study. But. Yeah. Sure. Sure. But. But I think it comes down to. Do we believe

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Jesus or no. And I. And I think. If you can see where I'm getting at. So maybe when you go away and you think about this tonight. You nailed it.

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You nailed it. You're right. You said to that young couple. Because by the way. I've actually run into that before. I'm a pastor.

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And I've run into that. Yeah. Before. Plenty of times. People professing to be Christians and living like that. Right. So.

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So you. You nailed it when you said. I would say that's against God's commandments. And I'll bet. That you would do what I would do.

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You would go to the Bible. And you would say. God says here. Flee sexual morality. Right.

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And you can't live this way. That's what I would do. But what's interesting here. Is that. And I mean this with respect.

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You don't do that. With Joseph's revelation. In what way?

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In that Joseph says that there are many gods before God. You can become one one day. Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.

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Created by Heavenly Father. And one of our goddess mothers. In the pre -existence. I mean that's the story.

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Right. And we're going to become gods one day. Hopefully through exaltation. Through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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But God already said that there were no gods before him. There won't be any after him. He's the first and the last.

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And that he is the only God. And the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other. That's before Joseph came along.

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So and let me ask you this. Sure. How do you. How do you. Kind of.

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If my interpretation of the Bible is one way. And your interpretation of the Bible is. How do you. How do you connect that?

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We go to the. We go to the text. We go to the text. Yeah. But there's interpretations. So yeah. Here's a. You brought up a great example.

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So here's what I would say as an example. It's perfect. And this takes the weight off of both of us for a second here. So. And ask a question like.

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What about Catholics? They have an interpretation. Right. Well what's interesting is the Council of Trent. They actually say fundamentally.

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They say if anybody says that salvation justification comes by by grace through faith alone apart from works of law.

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Let him be anathema. I mean that's essentially what it says. Let him be accursed. But if you take Paul's statement and you put it next to the

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Council of Trent. It literally. It literally is condemning Paul. Right.

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And so that's that's how I'd say you go to the you go to the objective standard. Right. And you say well the Catholic Church declares this.

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And that's how I know they're wrong because they contradict directly Paul. He actually says in Romans 3 28.

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We conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. And then Trent comes along goes no no no.

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It's not faith apart from works of law. We declare anathema on that. They condemned Paul. So it's kind of like say say say you have there's like oh there's over 100 different sects of Mormonism.

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There's the polygamist groups that you obviously would reject and say that's not faithful. I think in the same way that you would point to them you would want to say then this is our church's standard.

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This is what we say now and you're going against that. That's how I would reject what they say. But I think Christians want to do it in another way and say no

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God's objective revelation is his revelation and you can feel whatever you want. You can say whatever you want. If your word goes against God's word you're wrong.

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He's right. So if a guy came and said it's not love your neighbor. It's eat your neighbor. We would all go.

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That's wrong. No it's because it's against his objective revelation. But Christ commanded that well and so he was our example and he baptized right.

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Right. And he commanded his apostles to go and baptize right. Sure. So who has the authority to baptize.

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If I want to follow Jesus Christ's example and be baptized who do

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I go to right. So we might say well the Catholic Church obviously I mean they're pretty far off.

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They've denied they've denied the gospel. You know like baptizing children and I'm sure you're familiar that we don't believe in that.

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Of course. We believe in the age of accountability. But but there are other churches that baptize them.

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But you realize that like say for like my buddy over there he's Presbyterian. Sure. He is my brother in Christ.

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He has the same God same gospel same Bible right. But he does believe that in baptism for babies but he doesn't believe it saves the baby.

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He doesn't believe that that's how the baby is justified before God. He believes faith in Christ is the only way of justification.

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It's not that work that brings about the salvation or justification. So same

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God same gospel. We may have some minor differences that are peripheral. I'm a Baptist. He's a

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Presbyterian. But we have the same God and same gospel. But I definitely say that there are a lot of different religions that have like pretty major differences.

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I mean you might say like oh there's minor differences in methods of baptism. Sure. But I think there are some

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Christian religions out there with some major differences. In 2 John verse 9 what

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John says is that in the first century where people were denying things about Jesus that God came in the flesh, the

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Gnostics, he said if anyone goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ he does not have

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God. So the standard for the early Christians was whether you abide in the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ.

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That's the standard. So there's a dividing line when you depart from the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ. But again,

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I mean if there's, let's say we'll take the teachings of Christ, right, he taught about baptism multiple times, right?

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Sure he did. Yeah. So if I understand baptism differently, then...

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But baptism doesn't save you. Apart from, so what if there's,

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I'm sure there are Christian religions that believe that baptism saves you. If somebody taught that though, if they said that it's anything apart from faith, alone in Christ, and it's any work like baptism or church attendance or whatever it might be, tithing or whatever, however they add to justification, the

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Apostle Paul says that Christ, in Galatians 5 he says Christ has become of no effect to you, whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law, you add any work to faith, he says you're denying grace and you're choosing law.

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But what about, the scripture says faith without works is dead, or where Christ says, you know, he that doeth the will of my

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Father will... Amen. By the way, we believe that. We see Christians, the Bible teaches that when a person repents and believes and trusts in Christ, that's a work of God in their life.

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That's a gift from God, right? And we believe, the Bible teaches that when you've come to Christ to be declared righteous by faith as a gift in Him alone, you are raised from death to newness of life, so it means your heart's changed, you have a new life and God lives there.

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Absolutely, but then... So good works follow. And then you have to continue, right? It's God that does that, and that's a gift in itself.

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Yeah, absolutely. But Mormonism does teach though, that it is those good works and obedience that ultimately merit exaltation.

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No, see, here's the issue, is that I think there are some cultural things that happen in church because we believe in certain things like ordinances, right?

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Ordinance is basically an outward manifestation of my inward belief, right?

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Of the grace, right? Because the only way that I have faith is through the grace of God, right?

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And the only way that I continue to do good works and do good things is through the grace of God, right?

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He gives me breath. I mean, I can do anything without Heavenly Father, right? So I think there are a lot of times misunderstandings that I can earn my way to heaven through doing things, but there's no way that I'm ever going to get to heaven without the grace of God and without Christ's sacrifice.

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Yeah, I know. I would never say that Mormons believe that it's apart from grace or the work of Christ.

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I know that you believe that it's grace, but also your works. Because 2 Nephi 25 -23, it says, it is by grace that you are saved after all you can do.

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Right, but what is all you can do and how do I get to all that I can do? Well, yeah, and that's the point.

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We could look at a number. Well, it actually says you're saved by grace after all you can do. After all you can do, then the grace.

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So that is worlds apart from what the Bible teaches in terms of grace.

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I mean, faith without works is dead. I mean this with respect. Have you read James 2 in context?

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What would you say is the context of James 2? You tell me. And I don't mean that. I promise you.

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I mean that a lot of times I have a discussion with Mormons and I'll say, well, what does that say? And they'll go, I've never read it.

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So I'm not saying that you haven't. Okay, so in James 2, he's not talking in James 2 about how to be justified before God as though it were faith and works or just faith alone.

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Because he says in James 2 10, he says, whosoever of you should keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, he's guilty of all of it.

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That's in the same passage. And then he says, essentially the discussions between faith that's alive and faith that's dead.

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And he says, which one saves, real faith or fake faith, dead faith? That's the conversation.

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He says, faith without works is dead. So he's saying, how do you and I identify whether or not someone's faith is alive and real or whether there are phony through their works?

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It's not saying that you're justified by those works. And Mormons don't believe that you're justified through your works either.

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Well, what's your article of faith? We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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But you don't think that's an important piece of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, we change and obey God because God's changed us and we're saved by his grace.

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But this church teaches that it is those works that are added to grace.

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You guys go like, in the way, it doesn't, it can go, down the sidewalk, because people are constantly like going in and out and then they go around out by the street to get around you guys.

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This is my buddy, Craig, by the way. Hi. Hi. I'm Craig. You want to step forward this way a little bit or?

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Sure. So, I'll give you a text. Romans 3 .28,

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Paul is talking specifically to this issue. And here's what I say to you, man, listen, if you forget everything

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I say tonight, just do this, man, in the privacy of your own home, read Romans chapters 3, 4, 5, and 6 when you get home.

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Okay. Just by yourself. Just read it. And in the context of our discussion. And what he says is, we declare that a man is justified, which means declared righteous, by faith apart from works of law.

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And he says, how is Abraham justified? Was it through works? He says, what does the scripture say, Abraham believed

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God, it was credited to him as righteousness. It was before the law was given, before he did circumcision, before he offered

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Isaac on the altar. And he says that God credited to him righteousness apart from works.

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And he doesn't count his sins. How? Faith, and faith alone. And if you and I are going to be sons and daughters of Abraham, which is the whole story, right?

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Because of Jesus, it has to be of the same faith as Abraham. And it's not just Mormonism that teaches, it's grace and faith and works, so that God can see you and accept you based upon your faith and your works.

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The Bible teaches that it's solely through the righteousness of Jesus. And Methodists, I think, believe in,

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I guess, what you would call works. And again, that just kind of comes to me, that's where I just have a hard time understanding who do

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I follow then? Where do I... The scriptures. Yeah.

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And you've got to ask the question, like, for example, how do I interpret the scriptures? I mean, I've known some really smart people that have

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PhDs in Biblical studies, right? Both members of the church and not members of the church.

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And they understand the Bible very differently. So let's...

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Can I answer that real fast? Yeah. Okay, so say you had a map. You and I were given a map.

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And we go out to have dinner together. And someone gave us a map. This happened to my friend the other night. Someone gave him a map, and he got it all wrong, but he's just kind of goofy like that.

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But someone gave us a map, and it's a specific objective map, northeast, southwest, all that stuff.

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And it has clear lines, and especially in Phoenix, it's so easy with grid. And we decide, as we look at the map, we look around our surroundings, and we go, now

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I feel like I've been here before. I actually think we turn right here. And we don't pay attention to the objectivity of the map any longer, but now we're going by what we perceive, how we feel, and we change our direction based upon our own subjective feelings and what we think is true, and we're no longer looking at the map.

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It's not the map that's wrong. It's us. And what we need to do is get ourselves back to that map.

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And so Jesus said that pretty much exactly. He says, John 17, 17, thy word is truth.

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It's the standard, the measuring line, right? So if you have a feeling, and I have a feeling, and a belief that's off, we don't adjust the word of God to our feeling.

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We adjust our feelings and our beliefs to the word of God. Yeah, but I mean, if I interpret the map in a different way, then that kind of makes it really difficult to navigate, because I might feel that, well, these blue lines on this map are roads.

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So I'm right now, I'm standing on the road, and I'm looking at the map, but actually that blue line is a river, right?

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And if I don't understand the map correctly, then it's kind of hard to get good to go where I want to go.

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You're nailing it, though. You're nailing it. I mean, perfectly. What's the problem? Is it in the map or the person?

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Well, it's in the interpretation of the map, right? So what do we do? What if there are different passages of the

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Bible that are understood differently, and I don't... It says I need to be baptized, but when do I get baptized?

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Who baptizes me? Sure. How do I get baptized? Well, what we know the Bible teaches is that the

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Word of God is pure. It's able to make wise the simple. We believe that God is sufficiently clear to communicate to people, like, for example, like I gave you.

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Do we love our neighbor or eat him? We love our neighbor. Are you sure about that? I'm positive. Okay.

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So you're absolutely positive. Yes. Well, God has spoken in exactly that way when he says that Jesus created all things, including

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Satan. Exactly the same way. And so when Joseph and the Mormon prophets and apostles have come along and told us that no,

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Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the sense that he was created by Elohim, and we are all spiritual offspring of our heavenly

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Father, and Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, that's a different Christ. And it's not just a problem, by the way,

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I'm going to be fair here, it's not just a problem of the 19th century and 20th century. This existed in the first century.

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Paul addresses it in 2 Corinthians 11. He warns them, he's afraid for them that they're going to be deceived and follow a different Christ and a different gospel.

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That's first century. And then it's not a surprise that we have many centuries later the same kind of scenario where people use

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Christian terminology but they pour an entirely different meaning into those words. And my concern for you as a friend is

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I love you, I care about you, and I love your community and I want you to know the true Christ and the true gospel. That's the thing,

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I feel like I do. So I'll tell you what, there's a way to get a hold of me in the back of there. Just look that over, send me a message, talk to me,

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I mean, give me answers even. You've seen I'm not a mean guy, I'm not a monster, I'd love to chat with you.

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I'm Jeff, by the way, Jeff Durbin, it was a blessing talking to you, thank you, thank you man, thank you.