Laborers' Podcast- Did we attain Winthrop's dream?

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Welcome to the Laborers Podcast. Thank you for joining us and being with us. Tonight we are going to look at a sermon slash speech by John Winthrop who sailed the ocean blue in 1630.

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Stay with us. Welcome to the Laborers Podcast which is a part of the Truth in Love Network.

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Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ.

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Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify and iTunes.

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Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. How's it going brothers?

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Going well. Good. Did anybody notice a new intro video?

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Looks very nice. Very professional. We've got a new outro video as well.

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Hope you'll like that one too. Tonight I'm going to talk about John Winthrop and that famous speech that he had but anything new with you guys?

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Tyler has got a lot going on with his church and he's super involved there in this transition that's going on.

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In general, Tyler tell us what's going on. Well a few years ago, this is before I was received into membership at my church, they came under the conviction that they were putting too much into maintaining a building and not enough into missions and outreach and so the elders got together and talked about it and prayed about it and they sold their building.

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So the church, we're a homeless church. We share a building with another Baptist church in our area and we've been able to put much much more funding every month into missions.

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There's probably about a half a dozen or so missionaries that we sponsor, we support, we've sent out, things like that.

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There's a several continents and the next step in just kind of the way we do things weirdly at Hope Chapel is we've made the decision to pull out of the sanctuary and so we are in the process of moving our service and all of the bells and whistles of that into the fellowship hall.

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So every Sunday we're gonna be lining up chairs in the fellowship hall, we're gonna have corporate worship in the fellowship hall in the same place where we would do a potluck.

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It frees us up to A, have more time because we're not worried about getting out of the sanctuary in time for the other church to come in.

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So we're a little more free to do whatever the Spirit is leading us to do, whether that is have an hour -long prayer meeting on a

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Sunday morning because we have had times where we've dropped the sermon altogether and spent the whole service in prayer.

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You know, Matthew 18 came up, things like that. We're a church that will drop everything in prayer.

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And so we have a little more freedom to do some of those things and to better one another, as you say, to use it as a verb.

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We're a bit more dialed in that way. Yeah, praise the Lord. It's exciting. Yeah, and I'm always encouraged to see and hear your updates and and how you're involved.

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I mean, praise the Lord, it's really amazing. And Elias, you divulge how much you want to divulge.

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It's up to you. I don't want to put you on the spot. No, no, you're good. Here's what I've been thinking when it comes to your situation and what you've been working through there where you are and with us in our group.

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This is what has come to my mind, as I think in some cases there may be pastors and there may be podcasters that feel like there's got to be this facade, somewhat of a mask, that says those people who are in front of me needs to see and hear someone who has got it all together, has reached a level where they are firm in all their theological convictions.

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Or if they see me as a pastor, they see me as a podcaster, you know, representing my views and they see me waver, they see me change, then

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I'm not going to be as credible. I feel like there's folks out there who feel and believe and present themselves that way.

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I think it's okay. I think it's okay to communicate that we're just like everybody else.

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We don't always have it all together. We are still growing and learning. We have not reached the pinnacle of Christianity and so there are going to be changes that need to take place in my life theologically, in my character, in all aspects of my life.

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So in general, whatever you want to divulge, you're welcome to do so, but you're growing and you're learning and developing.

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Yeah, definitely. So obviously, I made a live on my channel.

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In fact, Dan was with me when I made the announcement. So obviously,

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I recently became or came out as a Reformed Pedo -Baptist and so obviously,

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I shared on my live, if anyone wants to go to the talk live,

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I talked about, so yeah, so I shared on my live that I was, me and my wife were going through the, you know, in the

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Word and going, I told my wife previously a couple months ago, I was like, I want to go through why we host the

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Covenants as Reformed Baptists. You know, let's go into the Word, let's go into prayer. We can look up commentaries if that's needed.

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Obviously, I expressed my, I explained to my wife, hey, I know, I'm in contact with Presbyterians, Reformed Baptists, you know, so I can ask certain questions, you know.

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So obviously, that happened and Tyler, he was one of the Pedo -Baptists

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I seek counsel with at times. So yeah, you know, I recently became a Reformed Pedo -Baptist.

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I'm still Reformed Covenantally, in Soteriology as well and I did share on my live too,

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I'm going into more of a Reformed Anglican and obviously,

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I think I used J .I. Packer as a really good inspiration in that. But yeah, so that's pretty much what's going on.

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My wife, I don't know if I shared on the laborers, but my wife is pregnant. She is due in November, late

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November. And so that is our first child and it is a boy. So I'm very blessed, you know, for that.

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And it's great because I told my wife, I was like, is it wrong for me to say after this one's born,

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I would like a little girl? Now, I want a girl, you know,

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I want to be a daddy's girl where, you know, where I, yeah, it's just like, she's like, wow, you're already thinking about that and this one's not even, you know, arrived yet.

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And so, yeah, so I'm very happy with that. Well, Elias, was the change in your theme music intentional as well?

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Because it seems you went from hip -hop to Gregorian chants in your YouTube here. Actually, that, in the description when

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I picked those, if people aren't familiar, I picked a group of guys.

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The description says, Scottish men singing, what's the song? Oh, so it's not even Anglican music.

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It's Scottish, yes. It said Scottish men singing. Oh, that's more for Dan. Rock of Ages, Rock of Ages, yeah.

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Yeah. Let me holler at Josh for a second. Josh has come out as a new podcaster.

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Yes, tentatively. You give the title and tell us what it's about and tell people where they can find you.

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So, the podcast is going to be called the Reformed Rambler podcast.

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The name has a few different meanings, but right now

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I've got a Facebook page that you can go. Like, I've not put any content up yet. I've got a videographer coming out next week to shoot some video to make a intro video.

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So, once I get that ready and get everything set up on the back end, we'll start doing some content.

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But I will be on the Rambler Reformed.

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I might have said that backwards. We switched it. We made one and then we switched around. So, it's the Rambler Reformed podcast.

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If I said that wrong, I apologize. I've got a Facebook page. There will be a YouTube page and then hopefully we will have the audio version on your podcast apps as well.

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That will be the goal. So, hopefully that'll be up and running.

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Get some content put out in the next two or three weeks. There it is right there.

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There we go. Boom. And now, drumroll, the leader of the

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Reform Auto podcast posse, the original, the OG.

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Pastor Claude Ramsey, my brother, how are you doing? Doing good. Doing good. I'm so glad.

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What's new with you, brother? Just staying busy. That's it.

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I mean, I get up in the morning. The first thing April says is, I want you to get up and go out working in the yard all day.

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I know it's your day off. No, seriously.

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That's not it at all. You're exercising dominion, Claude. You're dominating and bringing

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God's kingdom into your lawn. Yeah, I believe it. That's what Big John says every time he goes hunting.

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He says he's letting the animals know who's boss. I'm telling you what, the birds are just stupid.

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They don't run from you or anything now. You can hee and haw at them and wave and scream.

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They just stand there and look at you. There were six in my front yard this morning. Did you chase them?

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My dog did. It's so funny. We have dogs and they still show up.

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The owl trick doesn't work either. I've got that. Let's jump into the topic tonight.

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We're going to be talking about John Winthrop. He had a speech that has traveled through the centuries.

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Mostly political leaders have drawn out that phrase, that famous phrase from his speech.

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John Winthrop, he came over from England. He was a Puritan, part of the

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Puritan movement. He sailed over in 1630. He came over with 400 people.

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By the time all's said and done, there ended up being 7 ,000, 9 ,000. I can't remember.

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In the Massachusetts Bay Colony, he was a governor there and a lieutenant governor there for a bunch of years.

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But he had this idea. He wasn't a preacher. He was more of a political leader, but he was a leader,

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I guess, spiritually as well to the people. But his political speech, his spiritual speech to them as they were coming over to America to establish and to work this new world in the

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Massachusetts Bay Colony area. The speech title is

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A Model of Christian Charity. He had a vision. He had a plan, a way that he felt like these people should live when they come over here.

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Of course, they were battling the Anglican Church.

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They had their struggles with the Church of England over there. That was more political, though.

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More political. They couldn't get it straightened out over there. The whole Church of England was political.

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John Withers did see that Christianity should influence that Christ is

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Lord of the church, society, and the government.

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So he saw a connection there that there shouldn't be this great separation. The part of the speech that is so famous is the

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City of the Hill section, which he quotes from Matthew chapter five, verses 13 and 14.

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And I'm going to try to get this correct. I think it was John Adams writing to Thomas Jefferson. He mentioned it to him.

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I think Abraham Lincoln alluded to it in one of his speeches, maybe the Gettysburg Address.

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Didn't MLK refer to it as well? Maybe. I'm not sure. JFK did in his speech.

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Ronald Reagan did in his speech. They say that Trump possibly alluded to it in one of his speeches.

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And Barack Obama mentioned it in one of his speeches. So politicians, former presidents, have pulled this quote from John Withers, who was quoting

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Matthew chapter 5, verses 13 and 14. But I kind of wanted to ask the question, what was

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John Withers using that quote for? Is America supposed to be a city on a hill?

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Basically, those questions that we want to ask about anything, is it used in context? Would it help?

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Yes, go ahead. Would it help if I read the quote that you put in our notes from that speech?

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Absolutely. Just as a starting point? That's right. So Winthrop writes, now the only way to avoid this shipwreck and to provide for our posterity is to follow the counsel of Micah, to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our

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God. For this end, we must be knit together in this work as one man. We must entertain each other in brotherly affection.

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We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities for the supply of others' necessities.

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We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience, and liberality.

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We must delight in each other and make each other's conditions our own. Rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work as members of the same body.

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So shall we keep the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. The Lord will be our God and delight to dwell among us as his own people and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways, so that we shall see much more of his wisdom, power, goodness, and truth than formerly we have been acquainted with.

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We shall find that the God of Israel is among us. When ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies, when he shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, may the

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Lord make it like that of New England. For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill.

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The eyes of all people are upon us, so that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword through the world.

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And very quickly, here's the exact quote from Matthew 5, 13 and 14. You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again?

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It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. You are the light of the world.

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A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. So let's begin at the top.

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Are we as a church and as Christians, and I'm kind of basing these questions off Winthrop's dream, are we being liberal and charitable in our giving to be meeting the needs of others?

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So by the needs of others, are we talking about within the local church community or at large?

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I would assume he's speaking more at maybe at large in a sense of locally, even in a town sense.

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I think when I was reading some of some of his writings, he was talking about the fact that there was going to be normal society structures like there's going to be the rich and there's going to be the poor.

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So I think he was taking consideration all of society. But in the context of the speech,

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I believe he was he he understood his audience to be Christian.

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But I think that he was reaching out to them as they were going to be developing this society.

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So it may also have included possibly the entire community.

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I think I'm working. Let's ask both questions. The how are we doing amongst ourselves and how are we doing reaching out to the world?

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All right. I've not been here a while. I'll go ahead and speak. I think we let the passes go first.

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I concur. And I'm waiting for John. No, is it

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Jonathan Foster? I'm waiting for him to say, well, well, let me push back on that. So maybe we'll have to channel him.

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So as far as this first question goes, are we as a church and children and Christians liberal and charitable and are giving to be meeting the needs of others?

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So I am an advocate. We are advocates at Reverend Marta Babbitt's church of number one.

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We've got to be wise stewards of what God has blessed us with and going to the idea of being a wise steward.

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We we look at it and we approach it in this way that it's in the local context primarily.

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Now, certainly there we have folks regularly come in off the streets up and down Chapman Highway during evening services primarily.

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And we do what we can to help them, to get them on their way, to feed them, to give them bus tickets so they can get to where they say they're needing to get.

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But on the flip side of that, to make a determination that a local church is going to help an entire city is a,

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I would say, a big undertaking and an undertaking that is not wise in that the church itself has members within the congregation to which we are supposed to focus our attention and our energies on.

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So since this is what we're about, and I think all of you can give your thoughts on this question, since this is what we as the laborers, the

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Truth and Love Network, I feel like this is what we're about. Kind of going based on Claude's statement there, you've got the

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SBC who, you know, a long time ago decided we as Baptist churches, we are going to associate.

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We are going to pool our money. Okay, that's one way to do it. But then we also have the invisible, the

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Christians in different denominations. What is the best way for us to tackle the needs of others as God's church?

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Maybe coming from different denominations. I mean, what are your thoughts on, because I appreciate what

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Claude was saying and I really lean towards that way because you can only do what you can do.

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We can't guilt ourselves or anybody else to go beyond what they can't do or can't give.

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And you can't give to everybody. You've got to be good stewards. So have you ever thought through what we could be doing?

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You know, kind of forward thinking. It kind of goes back to what the

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Apostle said, where not everyone's hand, not everyone's feet. And Claude's right.

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The church itself is primarily focused on its congregants.

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Now, obviously, I'm pretty sure, let's say like, you know, if I was a member of Pastor Claude's church and if I wanted to, me, myself personally, wanted to get involved in somewhat of a community outreach, let's say for the youth and make it somewhat and really put up more of a biblical.

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What's the word I'm looking for? Like maybe some biblical classes is a word of curriculum and have some sort of curriculum that gives the gospel to the community in some way.

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I'm pretty sure, you know, Pastor Claude wouldn't have a problem with that, you know, where like, you know, it's me as a member.

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And obviously, in some sense, it's a missionary work in some sense. You know, we're trying to go out and proclaim the gospel to the community, whereas that's the best the best way

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I can see it is if there is, you know, members, individual members going out into the community itself.

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Yeah. Can I jump in real quick? Absolutely. Yeah. So I agree with what both of the other brothers have said thus far.

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If you read through 1 Timothy, in 1 Timothy chapter five, Paul gives

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Timothy criteria for enrolling widows to be financially and materially cared for.

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It says don't enroll them if they're under, what is it, 60 years of age. They need to get married again.

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They need to, they're young enough, they can put their life back together.

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Also, if they have adult children, those children need to be encouraged, admonished to care for their parents, to make some return to their parents.

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This is pleasing in the sight of God. So even the

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Apostle Paul recognizes that there's only so much resources. It doesn't matter what part of town a church is in.

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You could have a church of 5 ,000 people in the most affluent city in America.

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They still don't have infinite money. You still have to allocate and prioritize certain things.

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And I think biblically, feel free to push back, biblically, that emphasis should be on the people in your congregation.

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That's why church membership is so important. You are covenantally bound to one another.

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So that should be your priority. But just being a member of the church doesn't guarantee that you're eligible to be floated along by the church budget, right?

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So it's, there are stipulations put in place in Scripture as to who is eligible to receive that kind of care.

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When it comes to mission work, and I want to be careful how I phrase this, I think a lot of the modern missions movement is misguided.

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I think it's not done in a biblical way.

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It's not done in an efficient way. I don't want to impugn this to, or impute this to all churches everywhere.

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I know a handful of the guys on this podcast, not this one specifically, but Big John, and there's a lot of people whose churches are very involved with missions, but I'm not trying to say that they're doing it wrong because they have a big emphasis on it.

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But by and large, you're sending missions work, when you're sending people to another country or another region, you plant churches, you should be sending qualified elders.

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That's who should be going out. It's not humanitarian work. That can be part of it, but that's,

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I feel like a lot of the modern concept of missions has become synonymous with, oh, we're going to dig wells, we're going to bring food in, we're doing this humanitarian work, and we've got a young couple that have been, they're zealous, they're on fire for the

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Lord, they've been married for two years, they've been saved for three, they're going to go over here and they're going to plant this church, ignoring all of the qualifications for elders and overseers that Paul gives

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Timothy in chapter 3, and they're sending people, and so it's the emphasis a lot of times is in the wrong spot, and also the people that you're sending aren't qualified for what that work is supposed to entail, if that makes sense.

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So I think a lot of the modern missions movement is kind of missing the mark just from the jump, like their emphasis is in the wrong spot, but I think, especially for smaller churches,

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I'm a member of Reformata, obviously. We're a small church.

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We have 35 people -ish on a Sunday morning. We would not be in a position to fund a full -time missionary, but we can and do care for the people in our church, like what

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Claude and Elias have both said already, you can only do what you can do, and if we had near -infinite funds, there would be more that we could do, but where we're at now, we have to faithfully under, you know, we're accountable to God for what we do, so you have to kind of prioritize what endeavors you're going to involve yourself with.

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I don't think it's wrong to say, you know, we're not going to do something, you know, in Uganda or wherever.

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We're going to actually prioritize our local body and our local community when we can, how we can.

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I think that is a faithful use of resources and funds. I think

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I'm tagging along with what you guys are saying, and if I'm correct, this is where I would stand as well, that it should be an outflowing of the local church.

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Everything should be an outflowing of the local church, and kind of what I was thinking about before with the other denominations of the churches, be friendly.

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They may have the resources. We don't have to join. We don't have to have worship services together. We are not there yet, but we can be friendly, and they may have a resource at their church where this person has a need, and they can provide that resource, but we can't provide, but we can be friendly with other believers in our community.

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I think Winthrop was making an emphasis on being familiar.

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We've got a question, guys, that I think is relevant to address.

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Paul Shaw, what if a parent or parents abuse them? I think this came up while Josh was talking about the widows and admonishing the children where applicable, and when it comes to parental abuse, when it comes to things like that, it's important to recognize that we're a church, not state, which means that there are laws that are out of our hands, and so when things like abuse come up,

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I don't have the luxury of trying to determine whether or not it happened. I have to run it up the chain, because mandatory report is a thing in the state

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I live in, which means if a child was to tell me that their parent is abusing them, that takes priority, because the church can deal with the sins, but it can't deal with the crimes.

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I think that is a whole other ballgame than what Josh is talking about with admonishing the children to provide for their parents, because...

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This is adult children. Yes. Right. So you don't send mom off to the glue factory.

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You care for your mother as she's aging, not trying to get...

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I don't know if this is what Paul was articulating, but you're not trying to get small children to take a factory job to pay the mortgage.

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Right. And I think that's one thing that a lot of churches have unfortunately dropped the ball on, and I think we're reaping some of the fruit of that when you read the articles and the dockets about all of this abuse that's been covered up, which by definition is illegal in this country, especially in the state

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I live in, because I'm not sure if it's universal, but South Carolina is a mandatory report state, which means...

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Tennessee is as well. Tennessee is as well. Okay. Yeah. Which means that if it reaches my ears,

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I have to go to the authorities. I don't have the luxury under the laws to decipher whether or not

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I think it's founded, whether or not it's genuine. I have to go to the police. Yep. And Claude, as a pastor, would you say that honor...

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That verse is quoted a lot in this situation, but you've got to honor your father and mother.

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Would you say that as a pastor, honor can look different in different situations?

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There's ways that you can honor... Mm -hmm. So to this and to that question specifically, to answer both your questions,

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I think I understand what you're getting at. You're talking about the fifth commandment. Mm -hmm. Children, honor your parents, right?

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Obey your parents and the Lord. That's what the So the thing about it is, even if we have, as children, we have parents who, like Paul noted there, what if a parent or parents has abused them?

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And again, I don't know if he's speaking about himself having been abused or someone else being abused.

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The point here is this, that as Tyler just said, and as Josh noted as well, the first thing that any church should do, whether it's the pastor or if it's a lady at the church that's been told this to and is a witness to this, very key, right?

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But even at the very whisper of child abuse, it is the responsibility of the leadership at the church to immediately call the police.

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Josh and I had this discussion, what, a year ago, right? A little more, yeah.

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A little more. Some of the questions that came up in... Because I asked about this in the new members meeting.

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Yes. And I asked this specifically, like, what does this church do with allegations of abuse?

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And he said, we call the cops. In front of everybody. We'll call on the cops. That's the bottom line.

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And if there's any defending physically to be done, if something's happening right there, we call the cops and then we defend as necessary.

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Anybody else have any thoughts on that one? That's a difficult one. I appreciate you guys answering that question.

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So what I was getting at just a second ago, we were talking about the church and Winthrop uses the word familiar.

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We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, abridging ourselves of our, and Tyler, you did an excellent job just breezing through the pronunciation of this word, superfluities for the supply of others' necessities.

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He had this concept of, when we look back at acts where they sold their things, he had this concept of denying the individual for the sake of the community.

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Do you see that as a good Christian practice? Good Christian character?

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Something that we should be developing in our church and our community? Can you clarify that? What do you mean by denying the individual for the sake of the community?

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Living for self, maybe denying some of the things that you may be doing for yourself, living more luxuriously or making life a little bit, it may make life a little more difficult for you or being willing to give up things for the greater good of the community.

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Denying the individual for the sake of the community. See, this is a really interesting one because it gets a little dicey in this current cultural climate because that sounds almost like communism.

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Bingo! And I know that the argument has been made, both regarding Acts chapter 2, when they were all of one accord, and even with the pilgrims, that they were communists.

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I've seen those arguments and may or may not have believed them at one point. And there was an attempt in the –

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I keep wanting to say Puritans, pilgrims. The pilgrim era, there was an attempt that's probably more consistent with what we would call socialism.

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It didn't work, and they kind of rebranded it, and I think that's more in the way of what we're looking at with Winthrop.

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It's a little bit modified because they did start off with everybody just shared everything, and they basically starved.

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And so what we have with Winthrop I think is a little bit more subdued, that it's not just an outright nobody owns anything and we have to give up everything for the needs of the many, but rather it's this coming together as individuals in a way that can only come from the gospel, really.

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The way that we are knit together, that we are both one and many, that we don't cease to be individuals.

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We don't cease to be a group of people, but that we are united in goals, that we're united in our desires.

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If that makes any sense, which is fundamentally different from a

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Marxist kind of view of economics. It reminds me of being a servant, taking on that servant role, and just loving your neighbor as yourself.

38:06

That's what it seems like Winthrop was getting at when he was mentioning that. Well, time is getting away from us, so I'm going to have to narrow down some of these questions.

38:18

Go ahead, Paul, did you have something? No, I would just say that, well, maybe yes, maybe that was not the right answer.

38:27

Maybe the answer is yes. Yes. So again,

38:35

I did not get to read this, so I probably had to know a little bit more about Winthrop.

38:43

What's his first name again? John. John Winthrop, okay. So, to know, because the language, like Tyler said, is somewhat veiled, right, in a very real sense.

38:57

We see things like, for example, just for an example, we must delight in each other, about the middle of the paragraph.

39:08

We must delight in each other, make others' conditions our own, rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work as members of the same body.

39:22

So that language is parallel to what the scriptures say.

39:30

Look not every man out for himself, but also for the things of others. Again, distinction, that doesn't mean be a busybody.

39:41

Share, share in both the sufferings and the joys, right, weep with them that weep, laugh with them that laugh, sing, you know, if you're sad, sing psalms.

39:53

We've got all these applications scattered throughout the text of Scripture.

39:59

But to look at this, you know, just straight on, what year was it written?

40:07

That would be another question I would have. What year was this written? He gave this speech in 1630 as they were approaching the

40:13

New World. Okay, so knowing context, I would go from being cautious about this, being someone saying that the church should be communal in practice, right?

40:28

Not even necessarily communist, but communal. A commune is basically, most of us know, is where hippies live, right?

40:37

They all lived on a commune. They shared everything. They shared the bathroom, you know, whatever the case was.

40:44

Nobody owned anything themselves. Knowing that this is in the 1600s,

40:50

I could say I could read that and understand it as being a general sharing and a general loving with one another rather than a communal type exhortation.

41:04

Gotcha. So I'm going to ask one or two more questions, depending on time. I really wanted to talk to you guys about the context of Matthew 5, 13 and 14 and his application and then how we see it applied in political speeches.

41:23

So be thinking about that. So my next question is, we as a church, as Christians, what people are seeing as the church on TV and online, how are we doing in portraying our trust?

41:41

Let me scroll up. There it is. Trusting in the providence of God, trusting in the sovereignty of God.

41:48

Question number two. How are we doing in that area? How are we doing in portraying our trust in the providence and the sovereignty of God?

41:59

I mean, what are people seeing on TV, on the Internet?

42:05

What do people see in our churches? And that may be different.

42:11

Right. Well, if we're talking just with regards to politics, we're not doing a very good job of demonstrating our trust in the sovereignty of God.

42:22

Amen. And that's something I've been thinking on, honestly, since the debate because I didn't actually watch the debate, but I heard a lot about it.

42:31

And if somebody was to ask me who I thought won the debate, I would say the imprecatory

42:36

Psalms. I think that is where we are is

42:42

I truly believe we are in a nation that is experiencing a soft manifestation of God's judgment.

42:50

I think we have committed many of the sins that we saw with Babylon, that we saw throughout the

42:56

Old Testament. We're basically Rome. And God has been very gracious to us as a nation. And we're starting to see some of that common grace that he's poured out kind of being pulled back a little bit.

43:08

I think Calvin put it quite well that when God judges a nation, he gives them wicked rulers. And we're seeing that.

43:15

And the response of Christians has largely been, we just need to vote better.

43:20

We need to campaign. We need to do this. We need to do that. We need to get on the Republican bandwagon here. And everything

43:27

I'm seeing from the Republican Party is not better. When I'm seeing Dennis Prager on podcasts talking about how child porn is okay,

43:37

I don't think it's any better. And so just looking at how a lot of Christians are responding to political turmoil, it doesn't convey necessarily that we have a sovereign

43:51

God. It conveys more with what we saw from certain individuals in our nation's founding that God is disconnected from his creation, that he is like a watch, that he just set it and put it on a desk and walked away.

44:05

And I think that's an area where we could do a lot better than we are. And honestly, when we talk about the city on a hill, we got a lot of potholes in the city on a hill.

44:17

We are a city on a hill, but it's under renovation. Any other thoughts?

44:31

Yeah, just to run off what

44:36

Tyler just said, I think he had mentioned that there's a soft judgment of God upon America.

44:43

I don't know how soft that judgment actually is at the moment when you consider all the stuff that's going on.

44:50

Well, I say soft because we're still here. Well, yeah, that's true. I guess it depends on how you want to qualify that.

44:58

But Winthrop, in that speech or sermon, he talks about how basically the whole thing is outlining that this is the kind of things that a nation should do if they want

45:12

God to bless their endeavor. And if we don't do these things, he's going to remove that blessing from us.

45:20

Right. So this is this is vision casting. We're building a new nation. We are all Christians.

45:27

Let's let's live together in these ways that we might seek God's favor and blessing.

45:34

God is not mocked. You don't get to thumb your nose at him and expect to continue to live high on the hog.

45:42

You will have to pay the man at some point if you continue to rebel against him. And our nation has has rebelled against him.

45:49

As Tyler pointed out, you know, the one political party is completely off the rails and the other is going the same way just with the ebrake on.

45:59

They're just going slow. They want to go off the cliff at 40 miles an hour instead of 100. So there is no political solution for our nation.

46:09

Our problems ultimately are spiritual. We have thumbed our nose at God. We have as a nation gone after idols.

46:20

And just like God or Paul outlines in Romans one, God has given us over to our depraved desires.

46:26

That is a big part of what judgment is, is God giving the sinner what that sinner wants, which is idolatry and self -destruction.

46:34

So, yeah, if you watch the news, you don't see any going back to your original question,

46:43

Rob, about the providence of God. You don't see any faith in his providence, any trust in him.

46:50

You see people on both sides panicking. And kind of spin on the tires and sink them down lower in the mud.

47:00

If you talk to believers, especially believers who go to good churches, on an individual level, you'll see this.

47:07

But nationally, you're not seeing any trust in God's providence. I trust

47:13

God's providence, which is a part of why I am less than hopeful for the next four to five years of our nation.

47:24

Because I think in his providence, America is owed some judgment on a level above what we have now.

47:36

And I know that God is consistent and he's just. And a nation that has had as much gospel light as America to turn away from that, to reject that.

47:51

After we have been the theological hub of the globe for the last 100, 200 years.

48:00

We've had so much scriptural and gospel light. We are rebelling against them with our eyes wide open, so to speak.

48:10

You know, if some unreached tribe in the Amazon goes after idols, well, they've had no light.

48:16

They have the light of creation, but no one's preached to them.

48:23

There's been no missionaries. There's been no teaching. There's been no instruction. America has had more theological teaching available to it in its midst than any other country just about in the history of the world.

48:37

Other than Israel, Old Testament Israel. And to speak about God's, the consistency, the immutability of his character.

48:48

Israel did this. It didn't end well for Israel. You look at the judgment that came upon them after they had killed the prophets, rejected and killed the son, the promised

48:59

Messiah. They were laid waste. The Jerusalem was sacked. And America is not

49:05

Israel. Don't hear what I'm not saying. But again, the principle applies that God is not mocked.

49:13

And if you reject him in light of having a wealth of gospel light, right?

49:23

We, America knows the scriptures. We produce some of the best theologians. And we have still said now we don't want it.

49:31

We want our our graven images. We want our money. We want our depravity.

49:37

And that that is what God has given us over the last decade. You know, in a more pronounced way.

49:44

So. I'm trustful overall of God's providence, obviously. I don't know that America will be on the winning end of that, at least at least for the next number of years.

49:58

If that if that makes sense. Can can I add something? I'm sorry for speaking so much.

50:05

But so to to piggyback now off what Josh just said, you know, it's it's inevitable when you look to the text of the scriptures.

50:16

Oh, the New Testament, you see it, you know, coming into the into the New Testament that God, by his providence,

50:24

God's providence is God's government governing of all things in his creation.

50:32

And he does so most times primarily by natural means.

50:38

And what happens when God's people get crossways with God? He puts evil leaders in.

50:46

And what has to happen? Time has to run its course. If you look back through the

50:52

Old Testament history, you'll see that there were several bad kings that man, they was in office a long time.

51:00

But that's a judgment of God. And it's a blessing of God to have good leaders.

51:07

So in that we have a response. We do have a responsibility. It should drive us concerning God's providence and knowing.

51:15

And here's the beautiful thing that as Christians, because we have the scriptures, we've got access to literally a play by play by play by play by play throughout history of what

51:31

God's people did, whether obeyed or disobeyed. Right. And how God's people were either blessed or they were punished.

51:39

Right. They were chastised. But we have that. So concerning the question about God's providence,

51:46

I would say to the question itself, again, the question being, do we behave in a way that shows we trust in the providence of God?

51:54

I would say that if we understand the providence of God.

52:01

Yes. The way that we live and act shows that we trust in the providence of God because we are on we are out on the field, so to speak.

52:09

We're proclaiming the good news of the gospel is the only means of salvation. Right. So when we recognize

52:16

God's providence, it will drive us to be even as believers. It will drive us to be more faithful.

52:25

It drives us to be more loving to the to the Lord. And that and our love to the

52:31

Lord creates compassion in us. And that compassion in us compels us, as the

52:38

New Testament says, it compels us to go out and to go forth and to tell it and sing it from day to day.

52:45

As the old song says, while you are passing along, tell it to sinners who fall by the way.

52:52

Tell it in story and song. What is it? It is the message of Jesus to men sent from the

52:58

Savior above. Tell it and sing it again and again. That wonderful song of love.

53:06

So that is that. That would be my answer to that. The prophet that we do trust in the providence of God.

53:14

And if we do, it will show. And if we don't, it will show. We've been talking about with her for a bit with the pilgrims in this this vision that they had this this kind of like their commencement address, so to speak.

53:31

But a really interesting bit of history that I I find interesting to look into is the

53:37

Civil War era. I'm a book nerd and not just theology books, but even fiction.

53:43

And one author that I've taken a liking to since honestly, since the pandemic is a guy named Herman Melville.

53:49

Wrote some really long books that are not easily accessible to many people, but wrote like a book this thick about a guy chasing a whale.

54:00

Doesn't appeal to a lot of people. Was that called Jaws? Was that called

54:06

Jaws? It was not. The original Star Trek. During the

54:13

Civil War, Herman Melville took up poetry. And at the end of this book of poetry, he writes this.

54:20

And I just wanted to read it because I think it ties into where we're going with this. With that point in American history where they were wondering if the dream was dashed.

54:29

If the dream of a city on a hill was was dead. And he says in view of the infinite desirableness of reestablishment and considering that so far as feeling is concerned, it depends not mainly on the temper in which the

54:44

South regards the North, but rather conversely, one who never was a blind adherent feels constrained to submit some thoughts, counting on the indulgence of his countrymen.

54:55

And first, it may be said that if among the feelings and opinions growing immediately out of a great civil convulsion, there are any time which shall modify or do away, they are presumably those of a less temperate and charitable caste.

55:09

That is, the tensions between the North and the South don't have to be what they are. That it is the product of a lacking something that is necessary to reestablish.

55:19

There seems no reason why patriotism and narrowness should go together, or why intellectual impartiality should be confounded with political trimming, or why serviceable truth should keep cloistered because of not partition.

55:34

Yet the work of reconstruction, if admitted to be feasible at all, demands little but common sense in Christian charity.

55:45

Little but these? These are much. And that at the end of the day, the thing that was going to reunify the nation, the

55:57

Melville, was Christian charity, which is the really old -fashioned way of saying love.

56:05

That essentially what was going to bring America back together was the kind of love that only lives among Christians.

56:14

And so when we're talking about a city on a hill in the text, we're talking about the distinctiveness of the people of Christ.

56:22

It's just as you are a city on a hill, looking down upon that below, you're obvious.

56:29

You can't be hidden here. You are very obvious. And so we're called to be distinctive, to be like a city on a hilltop.

56:41

And so when we're talking about the vision that the pilgrims had, or the

56:47

Reconstruction era when you had guys like Melville and Dana Jr. who were talking about how to fix what we just broke with slavery, it has to come from these things that are unique to the

56:59

Christian faith. That essentially what Christianity offers is a net good for society that we cannot dispose of.

57:10

And I wanted to share this as well, because when we post things on Facebook or when

57:16

I post things on Facebook, those that read it can't see that what's being said comes from a broken heart.

57:26

And my call out here in this scenario is for men and women, for us all to examine and look at our local churches, look at the churches that are visible on the

57:40

Internet, that are popular on TV, that the world sees. And all of us look at those churches and our own local churches, because Claude was right, we're in 2024, we have

57:54

God's book, and we have all this history of play -by -play to see what

58:02

God blesses and what God doesn't bless. But those things seem to be ignored, and there seems to be idolatry in what the world sees as the church.

58:14

Because we run our churches as business models, as entertainment centers, and we're seeker -sensitive, and we're not trusting in the

58:25

Word of God, we're not looking back at history. Why? Because that's not what we're after.

58:31

We're not after God, we're after our brand. We're after money, we're after numbers, we're after all these things.

58:40

And so what we say and the things that we post are coming from a broken heart that we should be trusting in the providence and the sovereignty of God in our local churches where we're founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ and doing things according to what

58:57

He has taught us in His Word and not according to our business models and visions.

59:07

We're not being any good to our politicians, to our political leaders, to our society when our church model follows the world instead of God's Word.

59:23

Amen. If I can just add to that real quick. Mine, we have a conversation

59:29

I had with my brother -in -law where he was saying it seems like also we need to be trusting

59:36

God's sovereignty more, but also we need to be trusting in the sufficiency of His Word more as well.

59:43

And what you just said, Rob, where it reminds me of in the Old Testament, I believe it was

59:51

Elijah or Elisha where he was a prophet to the king and all the other prophets were kind of apostating, telling the king what he wanted to hear.

01:00:05

And whenever Elijah would come up, is it Elijah? Am I correct? Or Elisha where whenever he would come up, they were like, oh, here comes

01:00:14

Elijah coming down the road and he's going to tell the king something. All the other prophets were like, hey, just tell him this, tell him this.

01:00:20

And he's like, well, no, I don't know if I'm getting it, if it's Elijah or not, but I don't know if you guys know what

01:00:26

I'm talking about. Yeah, but it seems like that. Forgive me if it's wrong.

01:00:35

Elijah didn't. He told the king, thus sayeth the

01:00:41

Lord. You know, he didn't he didn't end up sugarcoating or end up lying in any way.

01:00:47

He told he told the powers that be of his time. Listen, the Lord's his law, his command says this and you're doing the opposite.

01:00:58

Yeah. So you need to repent. Yeah. Yeah. My last thing and then we'll give you guys your last thoughts and we'll we'll we'll hear the gospel and we'll close in prayer.

01:01:13

But I was I was doing a quick search. I cheated. I kind of Googled it to see if it went there.

01:01:20

Use the name of Jesus in his speech, I didn't find that. But as I was reading this paragraph, it right in the middle, he says, the

01:01:28

Lord will be our God. And I'm assuming that when he says the

01:01:33

Lord, he's speaking of our Lord Jesus Christ. And and that that's as as it's the center of the paragraph.

01:01:40

That should be the center of our our hearts and our vision and our direction that the

01:01:46

Lord Jesus Christ will be our God. And that should be the direction of our church, the direction of our society, the direction of our our leaders.

01:01:56

And that was it seems was his hope for a city on a hill.

01:02:02

And that's the only way that we can be a city on a hill. If the Lord Jesus Christ is our

01:02:08

God and we follow his way. Amen. You guys have any final thoughts? I think

01:02:16

I would give some closing thoughts going back to some of what I mentioned in the beginning, that when

01:02:23

Jesus says you are a light, you are the light of the world, you are a city on a hill. He says are it doesn't say will be or can be.

01:02:32

You are the light of the world. A city on a hilltop cannot be hidden. And so while we have

01:02:40

Lord knows we got our growing pains. We got our deficiencies right now. We've got our problems.

01:02:45

We've got our sins. We are still a city on a hilltop because he has made us so not by our merits, but by the merits of Christ.

01:02:56

And so Christ has made us his people. We are his city on a hilltop.

01:03:02

And so what we're seeing right now, the city is just under renovation. But we will continue to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ day by day, moment by moment, decision by decision.

01:03:16

It may not be a comfy ride. It may not be very fun going through these next four to five years,

01:03:22

Josh, but the Lord will be vindicated on the earth. Amen.

01:03:31

Exactly right. Josh, have you shared the gospel in the labors podcast yet?

01:03:38

You know, I don't think I have. We would be honored if you'd share the gospel with us.

01:03:44

And Elias, would you close us in prayer? Yes. OK, so.

01:03:55

God is righteous. He is immutable. He is holy.

01:04:01

And every human being has failed to keep

01:04:08

God's law. Our first parents, Adam and Eve, they were created holy and innocent.

01:04:14

They sinned. And when they sinned, Adam being our federal head,

01:04:20

Adam was corrupted. And all of his progeny down throughout today have been born sinful from the root.

01:04:29

We have all failed to keep God's law. And we are all deserving of God's eternal punishment and wrath because we have sinned and rebelled against a thrice holy

01:04:42

God. But God, being rich in mercy, he has made a way for forgiveness, a way of escape.

01:04:54

He has given us his son to come and live a perfectly righteous life. And then not only did he keep the law, but he took our sins.

01:05:05

So our sins were imputed to him and he died the death that we deserve to die so that his righteousness could be imputed back to us and that we could find forgiveness in Christ.

01:05:21

So if you are. If you have not come to know

01:05:27

Christ, if you have not been made a new creation, if you are hearing this, maybe for the first time, it's hard to imagine being in America and not having heard the gospel before.

01:05:37

But it does happen if this is new to you. And you feel a drawing in your heart.

01:05:45

If something is drawing you to this, you cannot save yourself.

01:05:51

You cannot offer to God anything that will make you worthy to receive forgiveness, to receive grace.

01:05:58

It is a gift of God for those who believe in Christ.

01:06:05

So that is the gospel call. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

01:06:13

Everybody, you know, there's a lot of back and forth between Calvinists and Arminians, but everybody affirms that the only prerequisite for salvation is to trust in Christ.

01:06:30

So that is my, that is my, my prayer for anyone watching that does not know him, that you would believe on him, that you would look to him as your only source of righteousness and standing before God, the father, that you would believe on him, that you would put on the cross and that you would be saved.

01:06:58

All right. Let's pray. Father God, we just come before you today just to give you honor and praise,

01:07:08

Lord. We are thankful that you have sent your only begotten son to live the perfect life as Brother Josh just preached the gospel,

01:07:18

Lord, and die the death that we deserve, Lord. And he has taken our place, Lord. And for those who are hearing this,

01:07:26

Lord, now we all pray that they are convicted by the preaching of the gospel,

01:07:33

Lord, and that they come to the mercy of the cross and put their trust and faith in Jesus Christ alone.

01:07:39

Lord, we pray that we have honored you tonight and pointed to ourselves, Lord. Lord, I pray for these men.

01:07:45

I pray for the churches that they are in and they are involved in. I pray that you are with them and providing any provision that they are needed,

01:07:53

Lord, for them as a church body, Lord. And I pray for all the laborers, even the ones that aren't here,

01:08:00

Lord, today on this live. Lord, I pray for them. I pray for their churches. I pray for their families, Lord. Lord, I pray for our current leaders in our country,

01:08:11

Lord, in America. Lord, I pray. We pray for the president. We pray that he will be saved. Lord, we pray that he is convicted of his sin and turn to your son,

01:08:21

Jesus Christ, Lord, as any person in power. Lord, we pray for them. We pray for that.

01:08:30

You send the Holy Spirit to this whole nation and let people be convicted by the sin that they have been committing,

01:08:39

Lord. Lord, we pray these things in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. All right.

01:08:44

I love you, brothers, and I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you all for watching, and we appreciate you.

01:08:50

We hope to see you next time. Thank you for joining The Laborer's Podcast. Remember, Jesus is

01:08:56

King. Live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ. And go share the gospel of Christ.