The Here I Stand Theology Podcast (Romans 13, Philosophy, Politics and The Gospel

Here I Stand Theology

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May 27, 2022

Today we interview Tyler Noe from Bread of the Word Podcast

00:21: Here I stand I Can do no other Will you recant or will you not?
00:43: Since your majesty and your lordship's desire a simple Reply I will answer unless I am convinced by scripture and By plain reason and not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves a conscience
01:16: Is captive to the word of God To go against conscience is neither right nor safe Here I stand
01:38: I can do no
01:44: I can do no other Here I stand theology podcast is a ministry of Reverend Marta Baptist Church We are not going to delay.
02:46: We're going to jump right into the episode today. We are have been anxiously looking forward to a with eagerness and anticipation
02:57: To talk with Tyler Noe from bread of the word podcast So with that being said without any further ado, let's go ahead and bring in Tyler here we go
03:12: Hang on a minute. I forgot something. Let me try that again. Let's bring in Tyler We Hope you're welcome
03:37: Tyler. How are you, sir? I'm doing pretty good. Thank you. Happy to be here.
03:42: Good good so Tyler you were so gracious to let me be on your podcast a couple of months back and that was such a
03:51: Such a joy. I mean that with everything it was so such a
03:56: It was a breath of fresh air really to be on with you and particularly you being a
04:03: Young man and so rooted and grounded in the faith. So we are so excited that you are with us today.
04:10: I Appreciate that. I was I greatly benefited from sitting down and listening to you preach for an hour
04:19: It was good for me too, okay, okay So let's
04:24: Let's jump into this. I'll give kind of a segue an introduction to the folks that will be watching this episode
04:32: Tyler Every Sunday at two o 'clock. Is that correct when you release your episode your podcast every
04:39: Sunday at two of the clock I at two o 'clock Tyler releases a new episode
04:45: From his podcast bread of the word podcast tell us a little bit about bread of the word how you got started
04:53: Tyler Just kind of the formation of the podcast itself so bread of the word actually started out with with kovat when my church was
05:05: Locked down. So we weren't meeting in person our congregation was mostly 80 plus and so there were some logistical reasons that we thought it was probably best to Go online for a while.
05:16: And so I started putting out content as part of a ministry at the church I was on staff as the associate pastor for about a year.
05:25: And so I was going verse by verse through the book of Revelation and I quickly found out how much
05:33: I did not know Revelation, you know a 20 year old dispensationalist.
05:39: I've got two college classes under my belt You Was ready as the as they say in the country to charge hell with a water pistol pretty much but I started going verse by verse through those first couple chapters and breaking down how this all points to Christ and then it
06:00: Honestly grew to a point that I moved it to a separate platform And I started thinking about names and all this bread of the word is not really a name that you'd come up with necessarily
06:12: But honestly it came from one of the old Prayers that the ancient
06:20: Jews would recite back in the days of Christ Blessed are you the Lord our
06:25: God who brings forth the bread of the earth? Awesome. I I there was just something about that that really grabbed me that that is a cool prayer
06:34: You know, we approached the Word of God like that And so blessed are you
06:41: Lord our God who brings forth the bread of the word that It's almost
06:49: Creative but it it fits so well And this is ultimately what I've been trying to do is to feast on the word to help equip people to feast on the word
07:02: The motto for the bread of the word podcast is reclaiming the Bible and exalting
07:07: Christ one verse at a time Ultimately, we just plow through Passages of Scripture verse by verse we've been going through Romans since I think
07:17: October Awesome, then Ecclesiastes is on deck in a couple weeks That'll be exciting
07:26: To Hear to hear from from a man who thought he knew everything he did everything and then he realized he didn't know nothing
07:35: Snap, I don't know anything. Yeah, I Think that's a relevant book and I just can't shake
07:41: Ecclesiastes right now. There's just something I think that we're missing there, right?
07:47: I'm excited to break that down Looking at a lot of the the question asking we're seeing these days with you know
07:55: Deconstruction and post -modernism. What is truth? Why am I here? What matters?
08:02: Amen, I think those answers are in the Word of God. Let's find them together That's right, and it sounds a little a bit like philosophy
08:10: I think we realized yesterday that we may be turned we may be delving a little bit into philosophy tonight, but The the the main goal and the idea and where we really want to head toward tonight is
08:24: Understanding Romans 13, right? I mean, I know over the last two years
08:30: Romans 13 really has come to light more so than probably normally within the mind of the
08:37: Christian and there's been a lot of there have been a lot of I think
08:43: Misconceptions and Wrong Headed thinking about Romans 13 in what
08:52: I so appreciate Tyler about what you do on the pod on your podcast is that you
08:59: Compare scripture with scripture that you're not reaching out for some vague or new
09:07: Ideology, but you are Genuinely trying to that you are genuinely exegeting the scripture like you say one verse at a time
09:16: And and there's there's one other tagline that you have on your podcast.
09:21: What is that about leaving breadcrumbs? I love that leave it a trail of breadcrumbs to a more meaningful and God -saturated life
09:29: Amen. Amen. That is so good. But before we get into that tonight, let's start because we want
09:38: It's likely our audience may already know you we tried to share you around and get you get you out there
09:44: But we maybe our audience wants to know a little bit more personal about Tyler. Who is
09:50: Tyler? No, what does he what does he like? What does he dislike? Right, we don't want us we
09:55: I want to say like and hate but you know, the snowflakes may not like that.
10:01: So So, but it's the here I stand theology podcast so And with the exception of YouTube or Facebook shutting us down so be it
10:14: And so let's start with some fun icebreaker questions tonight Tyler So my first my first question to you now, you know, this one's coming.
10:24: Can you spell a vaca tour? That that was so common
10:32: I Laughed so hard when I saw that one was coming. How do you spell provocateur?
10:38: PR o vo see a te You are provocateur
10:48: PR o vo cat You er e you are
10:55: You er Anyway, anyway The point was the point was that you know if we're gonna say words we need to be able to spell the words
11:10: And I find myself doing that from time to time and I'm always I'm always checking myself on that so how about this
11:17: So, you know the arm wrestling question, you know, that's the that's the really the main thing so in your household if you in your
11:30: If you've gotten Members of your household. So if you and any member of your household arm wrestled who would win?
11:39: Well, if I arm wrestled my dad I would lose Good answer good answer good answer.
11:48: All right. So now let's go to theology questions. So who is your favorite? pre -reformer
11:55: Pre -reformer probably Augustine and How about favorite reformer?
12:04: John Knox. Oh Yes I was there. I give you a high -five and hug you for that.
12:10: And how about favorite post reformer? John Owen John Owen, very good puritan found when
12:19: I can read him Read reread stop digest reread again.
12:26: Yes. Absolutely Very good, very good. So let's let's jump into the the text of Scripture Let's go ahead and bring that up because obviously if we're going to be talking about it
12:40: We want to look at it. That is our foundation and is our basis
12:45: So let's read what we'll do. We'll just read the entire 13th chapter of Romans Scripture says let every person be subject to the governing authorities
12:57: For there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted by God therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what
13:08: God has appointed and Those who resist will incur judgment The rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad
13:18: But you have no fear of the one who is an authority then do what is good and you will receive his approval
13:24: For he is God's servant for your good But if you do wrong be afraid
13:30: For he does not bear the sword in vain For he is the servant of God an avenger who carries out
13:38: God's wrath on the wrongdoer Therefore one must be in subjection. Not only to God's Not only to avoid
13:46: God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience For because of this you also pay taxes for the authorities are ministers of God attending to this very thing
13:57: Pay to all what is owed them taxes to whom taxes are owed Revenue to whom revenue is owed respect to whom respect is owed honor to him whom honor is owed.
14:10: Oh No, man, anything except to love each other For the for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law
14:18: For the commandments you shall not commit adultery. You shall not murder. You shall not steal you shall not covet and Any other commandment are summed up in this word.
14:28: You shall love your neighbor as yourself Love does no wrong to a neighbor
14:34: Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law Besides this, you know the time that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep for salvation is nearer to us
14:45: Now than when we first believed The night is far gone. The day is at hand.
14:51: Let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light Let us walk properly as in the daytime not in orgies and drunkenness not in sexual immorality and sensuality not in quarreling and jealousy
15:04: But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desires so Let's just start at the beginning of the chapter here.
15:19: Let's just start there. So What is the context of Romans 13
15:25: Tyler? So when he is writing the book of Romans Paul is writing to the
15:32: Christians in Rome And he's he's gathering support. He wanted to go to Spain. He wanted to Partner with the church in Rome and hope to maybe come there a minister with them both for their benefit and his and I think it's safe to say that he saw
15:51: Rome in some ways as a almost like a gateway City to reach the
15:57: Roman Empire with the gospel That the Christians in Rome were in an optimal position to spread the gospel through Rome Yeah, the
16:06: Greco -Roman society so when we get to Romans 13 Paul is
16:13: He's laid out a lot of heavy deep doctrine just Chiseling a little chiseling away at pride and all this piece by piece with like a surgical knife almost for so many chapters and he gets to chapter 12 and He moves into application.
16:32: Yeah, he's laying out some some hard truth still but it's directed in application
16:38: Be transformed by the renewing of your mind Live peaceably with all where as far as it depends on you and after he says that sentence
16:48: We get the government in an age where a lot of the Jews wanted to shake off Rome and Go back to Israel as the superpower pulses submit
17:02: Yeah so So Paul is saying submit and is the government at that time good or bad?
17:15: Rome was very wicked very barbaric It was not something a lot of people wanted to submit to yeah, but Paul in this letter does say
17:25: Be in submission to the authorities that are above you Yep, so How is a good government modeled?
17:35: Tyler I mean you talked about this in your episode But again, I just I want you to unpack all this here with us
17:42: So a good you actually I'll quote you on in your episode You said a good government is modeled after the fact that there is a good
17:51: God over us Right. So if we keep reading in Romans 13, he uses the phrase ministers of God at least twice
18:01: Yeah, and when we read that in Greek It actually comes out to the same word that is rendered as deacon that in a sense
18:12: Government is a deacon of God and it's the same word that we translate as deacon when we get to like 2nd
18:19: Peter with the qualifications of a deacon of an overseer and it's very much used that way throughout the
18:25: New Testament. I Don't think it's out of place to say that the government is a
18:32: Deacon in that way that they are entrusted as an overseer of the people of God. That's right
18:39: Invested originally as the Lord designed Government to be so I think there's a
18:46: I don't think we put this had this in our notes But it made me think about something what when you were just saying what you said there
18:56: The the idea that as Servants of God the primary role of Gov the government the primary function of Government is and has been biblically would you agree or disagree on this is or it has been and is according to the scriptures has been a punitive
19:31: Had a very punitive office as By the text itself right that God Paul said
19:38: God is set government over us to punish evil doers It I guess
19:48: I'm I'm setting this out there as as from the perspective or the idea of Punitive law punishing law versus positive law in other words kind of saying if you do this
20:04: You'll be blessed if you do that you won't What in your estimation has been the the thrust of Of Government or the function of government punitive or positive law primarily
20:22: In recent years, I would say without a doubt that we see this this positive law this
20:28: Notion of almost like this economy of blessing. Yeah, which when we really break that down that's a very
20:35: Roman Catholic idea of trying to cooperate with grace and Work with the system and honestly play the system.
20:43: It's like a stock market of Getting this this desired end.
20:48: Amen if you want this Do what the government says and there is some of that I mean it does say in Galatians that you reap what you sow and Paul does say to if you want to live peaceably then
21:04: Honor the government that there is an element of that reaping and sowing but in the grander picture here
21:11: The government should exist to bear the sword and punish wickedness
21:17: Right is not a positive Economy system like that, but it's it's punitive.
21:23: It is punishing wickedness, which is a much smaller scope Yes, then what we're seeing today.
21:31: I would agree A hundred percent right there I just want
21:36: I wanted to touch on that because that that really is a big deal when you really get down and start looking at At what government in its function and its roles?
21:49: Biblically should be so how would you say that the view of governmental authority has been?
21:56: skewed By a kind of I'll say this how is governmental authority the idea of governmental authority not been skewed
22:03: That's to eat to light of the word how has it been turned on its head by to by those in the government themselves and by Those of us who are governed the people of the of a government.
22:17: So let's start with the government itself How has the government turned this on its head? well, that's a
22:23: That's a little bit of a history question, but that ultimately I think goes back to about 1900 when you saw the rise of what we call
22:33: Progressivism and honestly the progressives were probably more in line with today's conservatives just to put that out there.
22:40: But The idea of progressivism was this notion that we've progressed from the authorial intent of the
22:48: Constitution that it needs to be a living document that it was Those original intentions of the founders were sufficient for the
22:57: America of their day But it doesn't work now. We need a better handle on new issues yeah, and this was spearheaded largely by Teddy Roosevelt's Woodrow Wilson and John Dewey and some of those guys but it was this notion of progressing from the original and Ultimately, it was vying for bigger government this notion that the government will take care of all of our problems
23:24: And we saw that really start to come into fruition probably after World War two with Franklin Roosevelt and the
23:33: New Deal and all of these Government offices he opened, you know all these these programs and all of this all this extra stuff trying to rebuild the economy after the war and Actually, it prolonged the reconstruction from the war because of all this this level of Government intervention and the trickle -down from that actually wreaked a lot of havoc on the economy and all these these bailouts didn't they didn't pan out and So you but you have that model that's emerging of the government exists to make my life easy to take care of me and Human greed and selfishness can take things a long way
24:18: So we've come a long way in the almost 80 years since then but that idea still persists that the government exists to take care of me to make my life easy to essentially put my feet up Yeah, and we've it's it's just gotten bigger and the problems have gotten bigger since the 40s
24:40: So that scope is massive now Yeah, we've we've
24:46: Definitely got that misconstrued that the from the government side of the the perspective here they exist to have absolute control over everything so they can fix everything and ultimately that Makes government to be
25:03: God Yep, and when we dig into that a little bit
25:09: One example we could go with was when Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed and There were there were these protests outside the
25:17: Supreme Court and you had people singing Amazing Grace Wow well hold up because Few minutes earlier.
25:27: They were singing imagined by John Lennon imagine. There's no heaven. It's easy I'm gonna try we've already invoked this worldview.
25:34: Yeah, but there is no God above the state Yeah, now we're gonna sing to the God that we just said doesn't exist.
25:41: Is it necessary? Yeah, and so we had this this mindset that the government is the final authority and when the government
25:52: Says it's a problem. It's a problem but then it also stems from a view of us as People under that authority of moving from being citizens to subjects
26:06: Mm -hmm that we don't live in first century Rome, right
26:11: We live in a government that was modeled to operate at the consent of the governed
26:17: Mm -hmm but with this notion of bigger governments and bigger programs and bigger budgets we've gotten away from that to the government is more like a king more like a
26:32: Absolute monarchy almost a dictatorship sometimes and we are just along for the ride.
26:39: Yeah So the so as so there we see how the government has turned its on turn the idea of Government from a biblical understanding up on its head and as the people under being the gov the people governed would you say that it's an accurate statement to say that we have
27:00: Like what you mentioned it actually we we a lot of folks Christians even unwittingly see the government and they wouldn't come out and say it with their mouth right, they they see the government as God, but they have become so dependent upon the government and the rise and the fall of political parties and the the condition of our financial
27:27: General -status so on and so forth. They've solved that as their hope and their peace within the world as opposed to looking unto the
27:37: Lord because Yeah Absolutely. I would say that we as a as a nation are looking to government for our deliverance and Providence which by definition is
27:50: Idolatry, amen, and it's simplest terms. We are looking to government to save us
27:57: Amen so With that being said, let's let's ask this question next so If the government doesn't have a right
28:14: To do what it wants to do and we as citizens of the government
28:22: Should not look to the government as God Who governs this is a softball question
28:30: Tyler who governs The citizens and the government that would be
28:39: God right and God's law Would you agree there? I would agree.
28:45: So You've done a fantastic job of talking politics. Now, let's talk philosophy for just a minute
28:51: So here we make our segue so Of Natural law and Aquinas this year as for some reason in in in reform circles kind of made a comeback kind of made a rise in popularity, but He wasn't he wasn't all right.
29:16: I'm not on board with Aquinas. I like the idea of The philosophy of natural law to it to an extent until you really start digging
29:26: You know kind of peel them back Peeling back the the layers of what's under it and what goes on with it?
29:34: But but we have really two things that I wanted us to touch on here was Natural law
29:42: Versus Natural law theory versus divine command theory, right?
29:48: so there there are two things here and I'm you I Appreciated your response when
29:55: I texted you this you said, oh you were like excited that we were going to talk philosophy So that that immediately that immediately pumped me up because I'm ready to hear
30:07: Ready to hear what you what you have to say about it So a couple of different things that we could look at I'll bring us up a
30:15: Graphic and we can try to kind of go over it together here and we'll we'll touch on Natural law will touch on divine command.
30:24: So theory Really three it's really three things natural law man's law and God's law natural law is a
30:33: I think a very generic reference to God's law Based upon this little chart here right natural law based upon principles and truth inherent to creation man's law based upon dogmatic beliefs or Constructs of the mind so we have a lot of philosophy that goes into that a lot of ideology
30:56: Social justice in our current day CRT things like that. It all plays into into kind of that column there
31:06: A natural law I'll skip down to the third one
31:11: It's somewhat it is universal in the true sense in reference to God's law being natural law
31:20: Exists and applies anywhere in the universe Regardless of location, right?
31:25: It doesn't matter whether you're in America whether you're in Africa. You're in Asia. No matter where God's Moral or natural law as it's posited is universal
31:37: Man's law however differs based on your location It's okay to do one thing if you're in another country as opposed to doing something here in the
31:45: United States Natural laws eternal immutable exists and applies for as long as the universe exists and cannot be changed again this these basic understandings of natural law really
31:58: I think do a good job of Honing the idea down But again, when you start peeling back the layers you see the the flaws in it and last of all man's law changes with time based upon the whim of legislators and really it boils down to Moral relativism how you know, it's morally applicable in our day based upon the changing morality of our day so Talk a little bit if you would there about About about the distinctions between Natural law and man's law and then we'll just touch briefly on divine command theory as well
32:41: So the idea with the natural law, I think what they're Referring to is what we would
32:49: Find in places like Romans one about how we knew God, but we didn't honor him as God Even though he's plain to us that there's an element of God's character that is reflected in nature
33:05: Because we're made in the image of God and I think what we're talking about with this this basic natural law could be summed up largely in the
33:15: Ten Commandments now, which is the Often considered to be the most basic summary of the law
33:23: Specifically the second table those last six thou shalt not kill thou shalt not steal
33:29: Bear false witness against thy neighbor and things of that nature For the most part those are things that we would generally agree are good things
33:39: Yeah, where that gets ugly is we also have a carnal mind We have a darkened mind that is consumed by sin.
33:46: And so there's kind of a give -and -take almost like a Balance issue here that's the laws written on our hearts that were made in God's image and this law, which is a transcript of his character
34:02: Is also we don't see it that way we don't look at it right because we have a sinful mind
34:09: As described in Romans 7 the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh
34:16: That's right carnal soul to understand yep, and so there's there's that there is there is a natural law
34:24: There is this basic understanding of morality. That's hardwired into us that is
34:30: Transient that is not bound by time that is always this way That will not change
34:37: But in the same token we forsake that For sin
34:44: Yes, I Aquinas wrote that this this happens because of Selfishness that when we act in selfishness, we actually ignore the natural law that's built into us
34:58: And I can kind of get on board with that interpretation of it While also recognizing the problem of sin.
35:06: Yeah, so when we get to man's law, we have that carnal mind that is Dominating our
35:12: Worldview and how we formulate ethics that isn't in line with that natural law built into us that is very much rooted in that carnal mind in that way of thinking that I am
35:27: The determining factor here. Yeah. Yeah, so there is a Natural law of sorts that we're building laws off of it's just not
35:37: God's Amen and that's go ahead and that's we've created a cheap substitute really a corruptible shadow of And called it morality, but any sense of morality presupposes a religion and It's built on a notion that there's somebody up there who's decided what is good and bad
36:00: Yeah, and often with man's law that person is Whoever's just sitting in the chair.
36:06: Yeah yeah, and and the again the the issue with Aquinas Aquinas said this concerning natural law his
36:16: Positive position on it. He said that Aquinas said this we don't need the Bible The church or religion class in order to understand natural law
36:26: Instead our instincts show us the basic goods. And so there's in that Philosophical ideology there are seven basic goods but he said our instinct show us the basic goods and Reason allows us to derive the natural law from them.
36:42: He goes on to say this Instead our instinct shows us the basic goods and reason allows us to drive
36:51: To kind of repeat that In reason allows us to derive natural law from them
36:56: Now if I were to and if we were to Tyler if we were to take this
37:03: Statement that he just made. I mean you can with the exception of of He was for what?
37:13: 14th century, I think Aquinas was Hundreds, I think yeah So 14th century if we take 14 this 14th century statement and we put it up against Joel Osteen Joel Osteen literally said
37:27: I believe everybody's basically good So this this is the problem with the natural law theory
37:36: Assuming that it can be understood Naturally, it can't be understood naturally, right and it won't be pursued naturally again
37:45: We go back to what you've been Teaching on your podcasts since October Romans teaches us that there's that there's no good in man.
37:55: And so to kind of to another kind of a philosophical view concerning Morality and ethical ethical morality would be the divine command theory
38:08: So divine command theory is a belief that what's moral and what's immoral is
38:15: Commanded by God, I would say amen. How about you Tyler? I'd say at least once amen
38:23: And so so there's some grounding issues, of course with natural law theory but divine command theory kind of solves that grounding problem that says every ethical system needs some kind of foundation and of course with divine command theory, it's
38:42: God so the the I guess the challengers one of the well -known challengers of the divine command theory was
38:54: Plato so The argument against the platonic argument against Divine command theory is
39:04: I'll get I'll get tongue -twisted trying to say this Do you do you know what
39:09: I'm gonna say here the euthyphro problem, right? So it's all about a discussion that Socrates and euthyphro had on the steps of the courthouse, right?
39:18: So that the challengers to divine command theory asked this question They say they asked two questions to challenge it and I and I've really it's like again, this is like one of those cases where The world and I'm speaking of those that don't have a biblical worldview for ethics morality and everything
39:43: That goes comes and goes in between it's like they give us bullets for our gun
39:50: And they say here, please put these bullets in your gun and shoot at me But they say they say they asked two questions to challenge divine command theory
40:00: And that first question is all right actions, right? Because God commands them
40:06: Or are right actions commanded because they are right and so the idea in that is that We got to choose one of the two.
40:17: So which is it and Really the answer I would say in you you you jump in here
40:24: I'm not meaning to this is supposed to be you talking but I kind of want to lead on this but the idea here that they say are right actions, right because God commands them or Does God or our right actions commanded because they are right
40:41: I would say Yes to both as a Christian. What about you?
40:49: I like ice cream And I eat ice cream But do I eat ice cream because I like to or do
40:54: I eat ice cream because I want to or do I like? to want I Would say that they're
41:02: Very Similar, they're very nuanced. Yeah, I think those are complementary terms that they're two sides of the same coin
41:11: Amen that there is yes, they are good because God commands them But also that God commands them because they are good according to what according to his own moral character
41:21: Yes that when God set out to create the world. Yeah As as Augustine dealt with this idea of the divine command he called the divine
41:33: Fiat or the divine imperative that there is these are imperative. Yes. This is how it is and he's
41:42: Vying for the creation of the abstract of these things that we can't necessarily hold like truth and beauty and freedom
41:51: That those are all rightly defined by God and because God is good They are there is a good there is goodness in truth there's goodness in beauty and freedom because the one who created them is good and they are a reflection of his goodness and that anything we create or try to create in this world in terms of Legislation or moral codes if it doesn't line up with what
42:20: God has called good then it's not Because God calls it good because he is good
42:27: Amen Amen, so whether in the philosophical system, whether it's natural law or divine command theory as Christians it
42:38: Boils down to what does God's law state right and you you said it a moment ago the
42:44: Ten Commandments, right? Those are referred to as the moral law. That's what's right.
42:50: And that's what's wrong There's two sides of the same coin there So when we as Christians so as I was listening to to your podcast episode, by the way
42:59: I was up in the graveyard at the church mo and I don't know if I told you that but man I was There may have been some gravestones got hit.
43:07: I was enjoying that but I mean you that and that really is really what it boils down to so if we as Christians are going to have a right view of Government we've got to have first a right view of God right
43:25: So when we break this this down this idea of submission and government at all
43:30: Abraham Kuyper wrestled with this a little bit and he Argued for a system he called sphere sovereignty
43:37: That's there's three institutions that were set up by God the church the family and the state
43:45: Yeah, and that they these three operate in their own little bubbles of Influence that there's a certain defined way.
43:53: They are to operate the things they are to have sovereignty in Yes, and that they don't those circles don't cross
44:00: But then the way we understand Submission doesn't vary between the state and the family in the church that when the
44:08: Bible Speaks to these things that we have the same Systematic approach to submission in the church as we do in the state and so we do have this this notion that as It says in the
44:25: King James thus saith the Lord which appears like 3 ,800 times in the entire Bible. Yeah God is the author of these things
44:34: So when we approach Romans 13 We do have this notion that they are ministers of God and that God is the author of government
44:42: Because he is the great King and that any King that is is ultimately a sub
44:47: King Amen that he is an authority that is under authority And that's an important distinction that when we break apart that worldview and we get into other territory
44:59: Yeah, it's often not pretty After I had a lot of problems because when you take out the center
45:08: Like When you build an archway, there's a big stone that goes right in the middle of the arch And they call it the keystone and if you take out the keystone the whole thing falls down Exactly.
45:20: So then let's kind of Wind things down here then so In our world today, particularly over the last two to three years
45:35: There has been this challenge right of what is Submission what does submission look like?
45:43: How is it fleshed out? And what is
45:53: Resisting what does Defy tyrants, right we we hear that we saw that on everything from Stickers to t -shirts now, right?
46:04: It's been right in this main thing become ungovernable. That's right and and so let's let's make this clear right up front that What we are advocating is not a revolution.
46:19: I Think you said that in your on your podcast there. It's not about us becoming revolutionaries and burning down the government
46:27: What does biblical submission look like according according to the text of Scripture and How do we as Christians?
46:42: What should or shouldn't we do when it comes to defying tyrants?
46:49: Well, let me refer to John Knox He Was often considered to be the thundering
46:57: Scott and we he was he definitely had a temper and he could get going and many thought that he was going to Lead a physical revolution.
47:07: They're gonna take over Scotland and they're going to set up a better establishment and all this
47:14: But to quote Knox those that obey not the commandments they are given in some sort resist
47:22: Mm -hmm Knox considered that it would be Antithetical for him to be in service to the
47:29: Prince of Peace while vying for civil war and so he made the case that the
47:37: Conflict that the church is to engage with in the face of tyranny is of a different sort like Paul said
47:45: I am of the flesh, but the law is spiritual if there's There's a different aspect here that we're we might be neglecting that it's not just Physical violence is not physical
47:59: Resistance. It's nothing like that that ultimately when we pursue God in a in the midst of a worldview that does not recognize his authority
48:10: Ultimately, that is a proclamation of God's judgment on a nation Yeah, that just by us going out and saying
48:18: Jesus saves sinners You first have to realize that Government has centers in it.
48:24: Yeah So when we start fleshing out this idea of submission and this idea of resistance that we do have to understand the two the early church
48:37: They had to they were called to offer a pinch of incense to Caesar and this was
48:43: Part of them venerating Caesar as a deity that he is a God so when
48:50: Peter says to The High Council there is no other name given by which men can be saved
48:56: That is a direct quote from something that was said about the Roman Emperor that is something that people said about Caesar and Peter has taken that phrase and Appropriated it to Christ the
49:10: King of Kings Amen, and so there was this veneration of Caesar that is kind of the backdrop for the
49:18: New Testament in a lot of ways Yeah so when we come into The first century church and they're being told to offer the pinch of incense to Caesar It was really a little thing
49:33: That would have secured blessing going back to that that economy model that if you do this there will be blessing
49:40: You cooperate with grace here But the church didn't submit to that one.
49:45: They didn't offer the incense to Caesar They would walk by the idol in the middle of the town and say
49:52: Jesus is Lord yeah, and in a in that first century that was pretty
49:59: Scandalous because the church had been very Submissive up until that point.
50:05: Yeah, they've been very they live very peaceably amongst Rome and With this emergence of this new thing called
50:12: Christianity Rome was a bit unsure as to how to Respond to this.
50:18: Are they going to be a bunch of zealots? They try to wage war against us and be like terrorists or how is this gonna play out?
50:24: But the Christians were very submissive. They were off. They turned the other cheap. They they did this they did that and then they don't submit here and It was almost a like the whole country just gasped
50:38: Yeah, wait a minute These respectful submissive people all of a sudden aren't submitting on this right why and so that is what it looked like for the early church to To defy tyrants in obedience to Christ is it was not for the pinch of incense to Caesar Right, and it's a
51:03: I think in our day that it to to articulate it important that we do literally articulate that it is a
51:15: Nonviolent resistance We see throughout the text of Scripture or throughout the
51:20: New Testament throughout the New Testament We particularly when they came right when they came to get
51:26: Jesus in the garden Peter jumped up Well, that is sword kept Malchus's ear off Jesus healed him
51:35: Peter if you live by the sword, you're going to die by the sword Jesus told Numerous occasions one particular
51:42: Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world if my kingdom were of this world Then would my people fight?
51:51: But the kingdom of God is not about us I Don't know how
51:58: How to word this The kingdom of God is not about us as Christian men and women
52:07: Burning down The government and everything as we see it it is us
52:14: Peaceably resisting the government with the intended purpose like what
52:22: Paul talked about there and like you you described so eloquently there in Rome So when when they were told to say
52:31: Caesar is Lord they said oh no Jesus is the Lord And and it's in and it's that kind of I Think would you say stubborn is the right word to use here?
52:49: It's that kind of stubborn Defying of tyranny because really tyranny is truthfully
52:59: Contextually tyranny is about enslaving a Group of people right?
53:05: It's about being tyrannical. It's about being like you mentioned earlier when we started dick like a dictator
53:12: Defying tyranny there. There is only one king that we as Christians have and we are not going to be enslaved
53:20: That's that's a bold statement there, but we're not going to be enslaved Christians need to be determined to Understand and to know that we are not going to be enslaved by the government or anyone else because we have been redeemed
53:36: From this world though. We live in the world. I would definitely agree there
53:43: I'm saying Augustine was held to a view that I'm persuaded to as well that the only just war
53:50: Was the conquest of Canaan? That was the pouring out of God's wrath on wicked nations that were like cooking and eating their own kids
53:58: Yep, we're not there We have a very godless Society that we live in.
54:05: Yeah, but it is not we are Israel and that we are going to battle with Goliath and so I think the only just war was
54:17: Canaan and the any human war we've had since then has been at best a lesser of two evils scenario that it's been
54:27: One wickedness for another we trade one enemy for another kind of scenario like with World War two it was nationalism versus communism in a lot of ways and The war ended but the battle remains yep, but um,
54:43: I do think that there is that peaceful resistance that you said that plays into the
54:51: Christian worldview that We don't take over with guns. We take over with Scripture That's right that we
54:59: Impact the culture. We transform the culture as an outworking of our sanctification That we are being transformed and conformed to the image and likeness of Christ in our heart in our minds and in our hands
55:12: Yes, and that that work that works its way into everything And so ultimately this this peaceful resistance that we keep talking about Which is a interesting
55:26: Oxymoron there. Yeah, but Ultimately, we're talking about Picking apart the worldview by just living in it.
55:34: Yeah And and is as Christ stated right a little live 11's the whole lump, right?
55:41: So Part a I know I can't I can't necessarily speak for you here But you know particularly the biblical stance that I take on this in living in this world is that?
55:53: Little by little The you know, the world is is overcome by the gospel.
55:59: Certainly. There are ebbs and flows There are high points in history and low points in history, obviously
56:07: We're in a low point of history, but with some of the things that are taking place
56:12: I mean really there's only so far and here's a positive outlook That we as Christians can have is that there's only so low we can go
56:22: Right. I mean if we go so low that we die We go to heaven. Oh, no
56:29: Please stop right sarcasm the sarcasm Sheldon so but but if when we look at when we look at history and That is such a benefit that we have right now
56:43: Tyler That that looking back at history We see those low points
56:48: But we see those high points and we can say that how whether it's been high points or low points
56:55: God is still sovereign Jesus is still Lord Regardless of what happens regardless of what takes place.
57:05: Jesus is still Lord. So I would say, you know Logically speaking we're in a low point
57:12: But I mean we're seeing things that Certainly, it doesn't mean abortions gonna end but with the with the overturning of Roe versus Wade We are seeing
57:23: I mean we are literally as Christians witnessing a reversal of a godless
57:29: Declaration that was made by the Supreme Courts. We are witnessing that and so despite what's going on financially we're seeing a
57:39: Moral victory at this time and I attribute that moral victory to the
57:44: Lord as Christians We ought to attribute it to the Lord because the
57:49: Lord the Lord brings peace and the Lord brings war the
57:55: Lord brings Destruction and the Lord makes whole it is the work of our sovereign
58:02: God that we are seeing in this so ma 'am You I'm telling you
58:09: Let's go ahead and book on air right now. Let's go ahead and book another episode for some time in the near future how would you like to talk about to Kingdom theology and Go more in depth on Kyperion All right
58:27: What else you're gonna say right here on air what else are you gonna say right You remember when you were
58:33: I don't know if you did this when you were a kid But I remember me and my cousin we always that was always the plan to go to our parents
58:42: With the other one there and say can so -and -so stay all night or so. Can I go stay on hot with?
58:50: So that when they're there your parents don't necessarily want to say no, but All right.
58:58: So anything else that you'd like to add in closing to kind of tie everything up in a neat little bowl here
59:06: Well, I Do think it's important the the way that this is this passage in Romans 13 is sandwiched between Romans 12 and Romans 13 verses 8 through 14
59:20: That we had Romans 12 Therefore in light of the mercies of God offer your bodies as a living sacrifice
59:26: Holy and pleasing to God. This is your spiritual worship Do not be conformed to the patterns of this age but be transformed by the renewing of your mind and he
59:36: Fleshes us out very intentionally in Romans 12 and he closes with So far as it depends on you live peaceably with all
59:47: And then he says let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities and he flushes that out
59:54: And then he says oh no one anything except to love each other For the one who loves has fulfilled the law that this this thing we call the law those 613
01:00:06: Laws all this stuff about the Ten Commandments and the natural law and all that ultimately comes down to Love God and love other people and that sums up our conduct as Christians is to Pursue God with everything we've got and to love people as God has told us to to the best of our ability and this
01:00:31: Parallels with The government's because it spills out of that This this is ultimately the trickle -down of our sanctification of this new nature that the
01:00:42: Holy Spirit is Working in us. Yeah that changes the way we relate to work and school and government and politics and all this that this is part of the new creature and So let us love in a way that only
01:00:58: Christians can a man Let us love our neighbor and fulfill this law
01:01:05: Because the hour is coming When things will be made new and we will have a perfect government because Christ will reign physically in our midst
01:01:15: Amen, that's a little bit eschatology there. We could we could get into but ultimately
01:01:20: The Lord will have an inheritance of nations and wherever America's fits in that The United States will bring honor and glory to God, right?
01:01:34: And the church will glorify God all of this will bring glory to God Amen Amen All right well
01:01:47: How about this? Let's close out here Tyler before we stop recording
01:01:52: Let's close out if you would and you don't mind, which I know you don't
01:01:58: Share the gospel with those who are listening today Absolutely, as we've been talking about the world is messed up.
01:02:10: There's a lot that's broken Society's broken really religions are broken schools are broken families are broken
01:02:18: Everything is in pieces it seems But there is a God in heaven who has showed us
01:02:25: The dire scenario that we are broken and he's brought us a way out through his son
01:02:33: Christ Jesus who was born as A human being he was fully
01:02:38: God, but he lived a human life Perfect life 33 years. He fulfilled the whole law.
01:02:45: He lived that perfect life that us broken people could never live Yeah, and He loved so perfectly and he had this perfect peace about him that could only come from God and he he lives this perfect life and he goes to a cross and he dies an undeserved death as a criminal and the weight of that sin of that brokenness that Has messed up our world
01:03:11: He took the whole weight of that on that cross and he died a human death
01:03:17: He experienced the fullness of death despite the fact that he was God and he is dead for three days
01:03:24: And he arises from the grave triumphantly proving that he had power and authority over life and death
01:03:32: And he has now ascended to the right hand of God the Father where he is ruling over the earth and he calls every single one of us to Turn from sin and turn to his glorious face to be made new in a way that only he can do and I implore you today to search the scriptures and find
01:03:53: Jesus to Repent to turn away from sin and turn to the face of Christ who is ready willing and able to make you new to do away with this brokenness that has
01:04:06: So corrupted our world and make everything new Praise the
01:04:14: Lord so How about this? Where did you get that? Super cool t -shirt?
01:04:21: I Got it right here at here. I stand theology podcast That is a brand new design by the way
01:04:30: Brand new design never before seen only on Facebook two other people in the world had this t -shirt
01:04:38: Tyler Fowler and David Russell from Faith unaltered
01:04:44: Podcast by the way, you should go check them out. If you haven't listened to him, they're pretty good. But for our listeners
01:04:52: If you haven't already, please go over to bread of the word on it's on Facebook, right bread of the word
01:04:58: Absolutely bread of the word on Facebook Like his page man, literally every
01:05:05: Sunday like clockwork He puts out a podcast that is chocked full of scriptural exegesis
01:05:13: You won't find you won't find much better than what you're gonna hear from Tyler Knowing here.
01:05:19: So make sure go over there Tyler, what's your? web page a web address botw 44 dot pod be a n .com
01:05:33: botw 44 that pod bean calm Alright, and you can catch bread of the word on your favorite pod catcher.
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01:05:47: We thank you all for listening one more time appreciate Appreciate our listeners.