Wayne Hazen Interview

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

King. We're here to take your calls as well. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

My name is Mike Abendroth and I'm your host. Every day of the week, we usually do something different here on WVNE 760

AM. Today, I wanna talk about books. I think it's important to read. John Wesley once said, if you don't read four hours a day, you ought to get out of the ministry.

I think of President Truman saying, leaders must be readers. And today we have a very interesting book.

We have the author, Wayne Hazen, talking about his new book, Mary Rollinson, subtitled,

An Illustrated Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rollinson, written by her own hand.

Wayne, welcome to our show. Well, thank you very much. Pleasure to be. Tell us a little bit about the book and what you wanted to do.

I love the illustrations. Give us the idea and background regarding this book, regarding Mary Rollinson.

Sure. This book is a book about a woman of faith. She was a

Puritan lady and she lived during the King Philip War and she was taken captive here in Lancaster.

And she was in captivity for 90 days.

And during that time, she experienced all the different problems and things that would happen to somebody in captivity.

And she was out in the middle of the snow in February, February 10th, 1675.

And as she was walking and being sort of pushed and prodded along, she was undergoing some of the most difficult experiences.

Her daughter actually was shot when they left the garrison house down here in the field in Lancaster.

Her daughter was shot through the hand and through the stomach. And the same bullet went through her side, through Mary's side.

And of course, that was an excruciating experience. And over the next nine days, her daughter was in the process of leaving this life and she died nine days into the captivity over at what they call the

Winnemesse camp over in New Braintree. Well, tell us a little bit about Mary's background and her faith.

I know she was married to a pastor and she was a staunch Calvinist. Tell us a little bit about her faith,

Wayne. Well, what we can gather, at least from what we have been able to glean from some of the various writings is that she was a woman of faith.

She had a strong faith, but she had backslidden a little bit. She had taken up smoking.

And she had, it's interesting because she took up smoking and then it always bothered her.

So just around the time that she was actually going into captivity or captured, she had given up smoking.

And that was a big thing to her because I guess at that time, women, it wasn't popular for cultured women to smoke.

And so that was one of the sins that she carried with her, so to speak. But actually, her faith was quite strong.

She, of course, was an avid church goer. Her husband was the first minister of Lancaster.

And he was a person who apparently wasn't too strong physically.

He was, as some of the information comes to us, he was a little bit weak or sickly, and yet he was very, very active.

And so she was always very supportive.

She talks about friends and relatives. She missed the communication she had spiritually with these individuals, with her former family.

And she, in her walk all the way through on her captivity for the 90 days, basically she kept from committing suicide based on the scriptures that she had actually memorized.

And they kept coming to the front of her mind as she was contemplating some of this terrible experience.

And so it was no question in anybody's mind then, and of course now, that she was a very intelligent woman, but also a very spiritual lady.

Well, I noticed, Wayne, maybe it was when I read the extended book, or maybe it was when I just reread your book, one of the

Indians as a gift gave her the Bible, and that was a great comfort to her, right? Yes, as a matter of fact, this was,

I believe, at the Winnemesse camp. When they finally got there, she met up with, well, the

Native Americans had come back from one of the towns that they had been, they had captured and had massacred, and one of the

Native Americans that came back had apparently taken a

Bible from one of the homes and had brought it back and given it to Mary, and she was so thankful because this helped her immensely.

In fact, over the process of her captivity, the Bible became quite a symbol of her not only faith, but sort of a symbol of her well -being because she was able to study that Bible each day.

She couldn't study it in front of some of her captives, but she would find little places where she could sort of sneak and study the

Bible, and it actually got thrown out of a wigwam. One of the squaws was very angry with her and took her

Bible away from her and threw it out in the snow and told her to get out, and she went out and picked it up.

It was all covered with snow, and then she took off into the forest a little ways and knelt down and prayed and read, and this was quite common, actually, on a daily basis.

Wait, it reminds me of Corrie Ten Boom in the hiding place in Nazi Germany when they took over Holland, where here

Corrie Ten Boom is in a concentration camp, and she actually ends up getting a Bible and keeping it, and it was such a great source of strength to her, and that reminds me of Mary Rollinson as well.

Now, the book was originally titled, written by Mary Rollinson. I like the long title, and you probably know it, but I don't know if you've got it memorized.

The Sovereignty and Goodness of God, Together with the Faithfulness of His Promises Displayed, semicolon, being a narrative of the captivity and restoration of Mrs.

Mary Rollinson, commended by her to all that desire to know the Lord's doings to and dealings with her, especially to her dear children and relations.

Why don't we write books with titles like that anymore? Well, maybe we don't have the time to read a title that long, but anyway,

I think that part of that came, part of the reason for that title is that in those days, especially 17th century, in those days, when it was a book that was published, as that one was published, it was published under the auspices of a church, and I would believe probably that it wasn't necessarily her choice to make that statement.

It was probably Increase Mather's choice, and he was the one that actually wrote the foreword to the book.

I didn't know that. That's interesting from a preacher's perspective and Mather's perspective. He writes it from the sovereignty of God.

The English edition, which was published in 1682, is more from the suffering perspective or the

Indian's aggressiveness perspective. It's called A True History of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs.

Mary Rollinson, a minister's wife in New England, wherein is set forth the cruel and inhumane usage she underwent amongst the heathens for 11 weeks' time and her deliverance from them, written by her own hand for her own private use and now made public at the earnest desire of some friends for the benefit of the afflicted.

Here we have the capture focused, with the focus of the capture, and the Americans emphasize the sovereignty of God.

Any comments about that? Yeah, I think that that's probably a pretty true portrayal of how people thought at that time in general, especially people that were maybe in the society of the

Bay Colony communities like Boston or Taunton or any of those communities. New Bedford, they were communities that had relatively good sized populations at the time, and they were seats of power for the church, especially for what we would call the more of the

Puritan concept of religion. Of course, Puritan wasn't something that they used for themselves.

That was a negative name that was stacked onto them by others looking on from the outside. But I do believe that the average person sort of on the street in Boston or on the street in Taunton probably would have felt that they were barbarians, that they were individuals that were really not human.

They were more like wolves. That was a quote that was given to them at times by some of the authorities.

And the dehumanization of them, but that was something that is very, thought that was very prevalent at the time.

And as well, the concept of the only good Indian is a dead one came out of that kind of philosophy or that concept.

However, also, there were individuals who were out there trying to convert these, quote, heathen, to the right religion.

And they were the ones that started the praying towns called the praying

Indian towns. And they were towns were whole towns where people had been sort of Christianized or were brought to that fold.

And, but the reality of it is that people just didn't understand each other.

That's the main problem that they had. Both cultures were significant cultures.

Both were civilized cultures. But of course, one culture would look at the other, especially the incoming or encroaching culture would look at the other and find ways to put them down or to be negative because of course, the land issue was a big issue.

So I would say that that was a prevalent, a prevalent concept of the time.

In fact, when King Philip's war was over and Metacomet had been captured and Weedemu had been captured, or actually had been shot, they were actually cut in pieces and sent around to the various villages and towns and their heads were put on poles and stuck up in ponds.

And they were actually up there for 20 years. So you can see the depth of hatred or dislike that developed among certain individuals toward the

Native Americans. But in reality, the lack of understanding was so great between the cultures.

And there's a whole, there's books that are written on the Wampanoags and Native American cultures, the

Narragansetts, the Nipmucs, and so on, that actually explain a lot of the issues, which really show that it's not unlike today, very similar today, where one culture doesn't understand another.

They have a different religious perspective, where they call one heathen and the other, as the

Nazis get injuries, so on, with the Jews. It repeats itself. And so this is a very, very relevant story.

Well, let's talk about the book a little bit, because we could dive into some theological issues. My take on the whole

Indian settler issue is I hate to see what some of the settlers did to the Indians, although I do believe that Christianity is the only right approach to God.

And so in a direct way, in a providential backwards way, almost, I was glad that the gospel went through the whites to the

Indian culture. But we could talk about that for a long time. I want to promote your book, Mary Rollinson, illustrated by Wayne Hazen.

You self -published it, I think, or it's on Endeavor Printing. If people want to get a copy, they can go to our website.

Or how would they get a copy? And tell me a little bit about how you designed the book and the striking illustrations that you've put throughout the book.

It's just fascinating to read through all the removes with these illustrations. Tell us a little bit about those illustrations.

Sure. The illustrations began about three years ago, and they were illustrations that took probably anywhere from three to 30 hours each.

I actually did 480 illustrations for the book. There's only 200 illustrations in it.

There are parts of the book, eventually I just ended up illustrating her own words.

But there is a foreword, and there's an epilogue that go along with the book, which add up to another 200 drawings.

And they deal with the different reasons behind why King Philip's War took place and why

Mary was captured. And then the epilogue deals with her spiritual life, the beautiful things that she was able to accomplish afterwards through her testimony.

And it deals with the various places that she lived and things that she did. So Mary was a sincere

Christian. She was a real Christian. And her light shone throughout that time until her death, of course.

And she was an inspiration to many, many people as she is today. But I think that the actual layout of the book started out as a graphic novel, and through some interesting conversations with librarians and with different individuals that I'm close to, they felt, no, it needs to be a landscape format, and it needs to be more of an illustrated book because of the types of drawings that are done and so on.

And they didn't want the bubbles to, you know, in a graphic novel, you have bubbles and so on, and you have different text overlays and so on, and they just didn't think it was a good idea.

And I tended to agree with them since I was not doing it as, for just the purpose of a graphic novel,

I was doing it for the spiritual nature of her life and the kind of information that she gives about her daily walk in captivity.

I mean, it's beneficial to all of us. The layout of the book was done by Xavier Hazen, who is my son, and he actually did, he worked for three months, all day, every day, laying the book out.

And it's a major layout job because the pictures have to match the text, and the pictures had to be cropped for this and that and the other things.

So it took quite a long time to lay it out, but I think it's very effective because I think the pictures do give you a lot of insight into what the words are actually saying.

Wayne, I thought it was just excellently done. And when I would look at some of the pictures, some would be very dark and, you know, very picturesque of what she must have been going through, from tears to, you know, people almost getting hit on the head.

Just excellently done to help you get a feel of what was going on there. And so I want to say you did a great job.

Well, thank you. Interestingly, you were talking about her life and how she got redeemed.

And is this true? I read that Joseph Rollinson preached a sermon in 1678, and it was called

A Sermon of the Possibility of God's Forsaking a People that may have been near and dear to him about her captivity.

And then three days later, he died. Yeah, I think that's true. I don't have concrete fact on that, but that's what

I've heard. I do think that's true. If people wanted to go to Lancaster, I happen to live in Lancaster as well, and they wanted to visit some sites and just take a little tour, could you give us an audio tour of the place of her capture and historical markers,

Redemption Rock, or any other place that they'd like to go? Sure, that's a great idea.

One of the, the first site, obviously, that I think that would be good to visit would be the actual site of where her garrison house was.

Now, this is just before you cross the Nashua River, going out of South Lancaster, then to the

Nashua, and then up into Lancaster on the little hill there. Just on the left before you cross the

Nashua River, there is a marker on the left, and that marker is indicative of what's within the field.

It tells you about Mary Rollinson's garrison house. It's a marker that you should read.

It gives you just a little bit of insight. And then, as you look out into the field, it's easy to see now that there's snow on the ground.

You can see a, diagonally across to the left, looking toward a swamp, which borders on the

Fair Mansion property, and you'll go by the Fair Mansion on the left as you go to this site.

You will see an up, a little hill, hillock, which is actually a stump, and it's quite prominent right now, and it has a dark piece of wood sticking out of this stump.

And as you look toward that, and you look down across the marsh that's beyond that, that is the direction from which the

Native Americans came. They came up through the marsh to where that stump is. The stump signifies, it was planted in the late, or I guess the middle 1800s, and it's fallen over.

The tree's gone now, but the stump is there. And it signifies where the garrison house actually sat.

And we are doing a feature -length film on Mary Rollinson now, started a year ago in pre -production, and we're actually rebuilding the garrison house on that site.

It's going to sit exactly the way it sat during her time, and it's going to be built as close to the type of garrison house that she had, and it'll be used in the film.

But you could go there, and you could walk out into that field. There's no metal detectors allowed, but you can, you feel free to walk out into the field, and you can go to that stump, you can walk around, and the owner of the property is willing to let people go in there and do that.

Also, another site that's in Lancaster is called Rollinson Rock.

And it is a site that, as you would leave going the opposite direction, south

Lancaster, you would come to what they call Sterling Road, and you take that, as you take that fork, there's a sign right on the right there that says

Rollinson Rock, and it indicates that about a mile from there is where Mary Rollinson spent her first night in captivity in a rock up on top of George Hill.

You can actually drive out Sterling Road, and you can find the road that goes up to where the top of George Hill is.

You can actually drive up within a very short distance of it. There's a couple of water towers up there.

Well, with the new, I'm sorry, I was gonna say with the new movie, you could be making some, you can put a tour guide deal together, and you could be the tour director.

Sure, that would be awesome. You know, Wade, it's interesting. My children go to Mary Rollinson School in Lancaster, and I found it interesting in Taunton yesterday, some kid drew a picture of Jesus on a crucifix and was sent home from school and given a psych evaluation.

I wonder how many teachers at Mary Rollinson, if they actually knew the

Calvinistic background and exclusive faith in Christ Jesus that Mary had.

I think if teachers knew of Mary Rollinson's real faith, they'd probably wanna change the name of the school, don't you think?

They might. I think so. I think Luther Burbank is much more, it's an innocuous title, versus this five -point

Calvinist Mary Rollinson name. But I'm glad it's called, go ahead,

I'm sorry. No, that's okay, go ahead. Tell us a little bit about, as we wrap up,

I've got about two minutes to go. If people want to read the book, they can buy your book, and I encourage them to do it,

Mary Rollinson, illustrated by Wayne Hazen, and you can get that on our website. If they want to read the larger, expanded version, how would somebody go about getting that larger book?

Is it found anywhere? No, not yet. That book is supposed to be published at the end of this year.

It's a larger, illustrated version, and it covers the gamut of her experience.

The illustrations and everything have been done, the text has been done. It's just needing the time to put it together, and that's what

I'm working on now. But what I wanted to say about the places where people could buy the book is you can purchase the book at the

Russian Icon Museum in Clinton, and it's been available there for over a year.

It is actually in books in print, and bookstores can purchase it, but they have to go to that website to bring it up.

If you want to purchase it, for instance, from Barnes & Noble or Borders, you have to go specifically and ask for the website, and they can purchase it for you.

It's not in those stores on the shelves. There are some reasons for that. It has to do with just the retail market and how things are sold, but eventually it will be in those stores as well.

Well, Wayne, I think it's a very important book. I know you do as well. Mary Rollinson, illustrated by Wayne Hazen. Some might say captivity narratives are important in American literary genre, like with James Fennimore Cooper and other things.

I think it's important because it talks about her faith in a sovereign God. Wayne, thank you so much for being on No Compromise Radio.

I really appreciate you and your book. Well, thank you very much for having me at any time.

God bless. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible -teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.