December 1, 2016 Show with Yogi Taylor on “Christian Answers for Addiction Emancipation”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of December 2016.

I'm delighted to have someone on the program who is quite the celebrity, legendary baseball hall of famer

Yogi Berra is on our program today. I'm sorry, what did you say? He did? He did?

Last year? Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Then who do we have on today? Oh okay, we have today legendary cartoon character

Yogi Berra on the program today. No? Oh, I'm sorry. We have on the program today

Yogi Taylor, director of Home of Grace Addiction Recovery and we are going to be discussing

Christian answers for addiction emancipation and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Yogi Taylor, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and please give us your first name, your city and state of residence or your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and obviously it goes without saying that this subject lends itself to many of you perhaps wanting or preferring to remain anonymous when you write in a question.

So obviously we will honor your request if this is about a personal and private matter, perhaps involving your own addiction or the addiction of someone you love and we will obviously not identify you by name when you write in.

But if you can, let us know at least your first name, your city and state and your country of residence, we would love to know that.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron, Yogi Taylor.

Thank you, thank you. And Yogi, before we even go into the home of grace addiction recovery,

I'd like to know something about yourself. I would like to know something about your upbringing, what kind of a religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what were the providential occurrences that the

Lord brought about in your life that drew you to himself and saved you? Well, I had kind of a real sketchy upbringing.

Looked normal from the outside but on the inside grew up in a family where there was some abuse and some other things that took place and distorted my worldview greatly.

And as I progressed, I naturally lent myself to rebellion and to giving myself to all kinds of sin and just really the life that came with addiction and with all of that.

And I suffered greatly with some disabilities, reading disabilities, math,

English, these kinds of things and was not able to, I really did not, wasn't able to read and had dropped out of high school, went to four different high schools, got kicked out of two of them.

Finally, I landed myself the Alabama Shares Boys Ranch. I was in there for three years, began to kind of make strides academically.

But I turned 18 and I quit, dropped out. I finally went back. It was interesting because I thought

I was making big money. I was making $10 an hour building cabinets for condos and I hit my thumb and I was bleeding and I had been on this crew for about six months.

And I looked around, I saw all the folks with me. They were all in their 50s and here

I am, this guy is 18 and they didn't have any teeth, they're all strung out.

Some of them were high at the moment. And I just saw my life. I thought, this is my life. And so I said, you know what,

I'm going to go back to school and I'm going to try it. And I did and ended up getting a scholarship because I actually graduated and I had some severe disabilities.

I got a scholarship to go to college. And when I got to college, and I actually turned it down,

Chris, it was amazing because I said, man, are you crazy? I don't want to go back. I don't want to go to college. I can't. I had such trouble at school.

But the guy said, look, you don't understand what I'm offering you. I'm going to let you think about it.

And he came back to me the next day and I accepted to go to college. And I went to a state school and flunked everything, partied, did all the bad choices you think a man in my situation would make.

I made all those bad choices. And then at the end of the semester, there was a group of people

I'd gotten to know and they were they were just they were very attractive people and they were different. They weren't different looking.

They were just different acting and they're very attractive in their spirit, their character. And I just, you know, man,

I just was really kind of drawn to them and they had kind of made friends with me. And and I got to know them.

And one night I missed my ride to a keg party. You just can't make this stuff up, Chris. You really can't.

I missed my ride to a keg party and I was walking down my dorm and I kicked over this garbage can.

It was a metal garbage can and it clanked on that tile floor all the way down. Everybody came out.

What's going on? And where I was walking, one of those guys that, you know,

I'd gotten to know, he came out. He said, Yogi, what's what's happening? I explained what was up, told him

I was upset and had some pretty short words to go along. And he said, well, man, I can't help you, but you're welcome to come hang out with us tonight.

I said, well, what are you doing? What's going on? And he said, well, we're having a Bible study. And I laughed.

I said, man, I'm the last person you wanted your little Bible study. And I just kind of said, you know, man,

I'm one of these guys. I just kind of, you know, I had a few choice words. And he said, no, man, you're come on in.

And he did. He invited me in. And I tell you, the guy preached. He taught that Bible study from Psalm one.

He talked about there's the righteous and the wicked and the righteous. You know, they're not righteous because of what they do.

They're righteous because who they are in Christ. Amen. And likewise, the wicked are not necessarily wicked for what they do.

It's because of who they are. And because they don't have Christ, they do what they do naturally. And that is they live wickedly because their hearts are wicked.

And man, it was so crystal clear to me that I was, I was wicked and I had,

I didn't have Christ. And I left a little bit early. I was just sweating. I couldn't handle it.

I was under conviction. And I went to my room. Man, I did. I went to my room. I was looking for a cigarette or something.

My roommates drove me crazy and nobody was there. And I finally just,

I put my hand on my face. I sat on my bed. I just realized that it was just amazing that this filth of the person

I was that God could love me. And I was 20 years old and I had 20 years of tears came out that night.

And I, you know, I just said, Lord, I don't know why you'd want to, you know, a dopehead drunk like myself, you know, who can't get it right and can't do anything right.

But I know you do. And yeah, so he, he saved me that night.

Amen. Praise God. Well, I want, by the way, I want to thank, I want to thank Melissa out there listening because she is the one that referred me to Yogi.

And I hope that Melissa is being blessed by the program today. And I forget where Melissa is from.

Do you know where Melissa is from, Yogi? Yeah, I believe she's in Gulfport, Mississippi. Okay. Well, Melissa in Mississippi, thank you very much again for the recommendation for Yogi Taylor.

Well, you have brought us to the point where you have been saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

And where in your life, what providential occurrences did

God bring into your path that said Yogi Taylor has got to become a staff member over at Home of Grace Addiction Recovery in Mississippi?

Well, I have to tell you, it really starts with my journey with the Word of God. And there's no way around it.

You know, after, after I got saved, I really, I had trouble with, with where I was at academically.

And the guy who led that Bible study actually took me under his wing, and he helped me to learn how to read by going through the

Gospel of John. And I just, we read every day for two years.

And I really, you know, that and the learning lab. And man, after about two years being discipled by this guy,

I had a great passion for the Word, a great desire to learn the Word. And, and I really, really began to stand out from, from some of the other friends

I was making. They just didn't have a desire for the Word, to learn the Word, to teach it, to share it.

And I began to kind of see that the Lord was ministering to my heart.

I really didn't understand it then. But looking back, of course, I see the Lord was separating me for Gospel ministry and decided to go to the

University of Mobile, where I'm an alumni. And really, once I got there,

I was surrounded by people who had a passion, a love for the Word. And, you know, just began to learn the

Word, love the Word, live it. You know, I had opportunities to teach it. And in that,

I began to kind of grow in my strengths and my, you know, learning what my giftedness was, and had put myself in situations, and I gave, you know, capitalized on opportunities to strengthen and equip myself and, you know, be under the, you know, the

Lord, He equipped me to be educated and and just to grow in ministry.

And so I pursued ministry. And, you know,

I was working at the, at a church, and I came back from Montgomery, and I came back to Mobile, and one of the men whom

I knew offered me a position at the Waterfront Rescue Mission. And I began to kind of work at the

Waterfront Rescue Mission. And the guy pulled me aside one day when we were in staffing, and he said,

Yogi, and I wasn't full -time at that point. I was part -time. And he said, Yogi, have you considered maybe doing mercy ministries?

Have you considered the Lord may be calling you for this? And I said, no, Brother Paul, I'm not. I haven't.

I haven't considered that, but, you know, I enjoy what I do. And he said, well, man, you just seem to be, you know, you seem to take to it really well.

And from that point on, I came on full -time, was, you know, was the evening chaplain, the operations manager, and then became the program director there.

And since then, I've had some other experiences. I left for a while, and I went and pastored a church,

Southern Baptist Church in Sarah Land, and pastored that for several years.

And then the Lord had an opportunity for me to work in ministry as a hospice chaplain, and that was a very challenging ministry.

And then what happened was, I was trying to seek out what the

Lord's, you know, where's the ministry you'd have for me, Lord? I know you have me here, but I know this is not the ministry you have for me forever.

And that same man who I was talking about earlier, Brother Paul, he put my resume in, and I didn't even know it, the

Home of Grace here in Van Cleve. And I just thought, well, man, I was in Mississippi, way out there.

But that's how I ended up here. They called me up, and we talked, and they seemed to be right in the line where I believe, you know, about Christian counseling and being able to minister the gospel effectively, not just superficially, but to really get to the heart issues of sin and of grace in Christ, and not just putting

Band -Aids on things. Amen. Well, that's a very powerful testimony that you have there, and the

Lord's remarkable, amazing transformation that He has demonstrated in your life.

Well, I'm sure that, before I forget, I'm sure a lot of our listeners want to know just a little bit of trivia.

Did your parents name you after the baseball legend, the bear, or the yoga instructor? Actually, Chris, it's really a nickname.

When I was in high school, I mentioned I was at the ranch, and I played ball.

And just for a short time, everybody has nicknames, and it was just a few people that called me

Yogi Bear. It wasn't any big deal, but when

I went on to college and I accepted that scholarship and went on to college, I had one guy who called me

Yogi Bear. And so we went to college. Everybody's asking, hey, where are you from?

What's your major? You know, all that. He would always introduce me, hey, I'm Kyle. This is my buddy

Yogi. So in about two weeks, the whole campus knew me as Yogi. And as they say, the rest is history.

Well, it's interesting, since it came from your involvement with baseball, were they mispronouncing

Yogi Bear's name and calling you Yogi Bear? No, no, no, no, no, no. No, but it was football, football.

Oh, okay. And let's hear something about exactly what type of a facility, because there are all, as you know, there are many different kinds of recovery facilities, both secular and Christian, and they have different ideologies.

They have different mission statements. They have different approaches to this very important life and death issue.

Why don't you tell us something specifically about Home of Grace and how long it's been in existence?

Sure. Well, in 1964, there was a man who had a vision to help, as he would say, the down and out here in rural

Mississippi. He was Bill Barton.

He was a man who was born with a severe cleft palate, and he couldn't talk very well, but he loved

Jesus. He loved people, and he wanted to help, and he studied, and he put all his efforts into gospel ministry, and he was told many, many times by many people that he would never be successful and that he should probably put his efforts elsewhere.

And he pressed on, and he felt like the Lord was calling him to do, and he became a preacher of a small church, which is actually quite a big church now, but he became a preacher of a small church, and then he began to establish, you know, what we have here is the

Home of Grace. And just a handful of folks, just a handful of people, and it was mainly folks who struggled with alcohol.

It was, you know, just a few older men, you know, and he would just take them off the street, and he would just bring them in and get them sober and love them and preach

Jesus. I mean, this was, I'm talking really raw. And over time, things have developed, and now we have this, we have 167 acres.

We have a 120 -bed facility. We have around 100 to 112 men in our program at any given time.

We have six full -time counselors and a staff of, you know, full -time of about 35.

I mean, the Lord has really done great work here. We are a non -clinical, faith -based program.

We don't take or receive any kind of government funding or money. Praise God. We take, you know, we're donations, we have fundraisings, and, you know, we've had ups and downs, and they used to charge.

They started charging a while back, you know, just because they couldn't maintain. And we do have now a one -time fee of $2 ,500.

It used to be $6 ,000, and it just never worked out, and it was too much for a lot of folks to bear.

And so we just decided with much prayer, we'll charge a one -time flat fee, and we'll scholarship the rest, because it takes about $5 ,000 to $6 ,000 to send a man through our program.

And so we just charged $2 ,500, and we, you know, we outline all the services that we offer, etc.

But it's a 90 -day program, and that is 12 weeks with a week or so of orientation.

And what goes on there in the day -to -day lives of those who are there?

Just so I can remind our listeners, or perhaps even inform some of them who don't know this,

I was rescued from addiction myself, from addiction to alcohol.

Before I was saved, I was an alcoholic, very serious drunkard, which is a more biblical term,

I think, from the time I was 14 through my mid -20s.

And when I was saved, the Lord removed that from my life, thankfully.

I was enjoying sobriety for 18 years. And very sadly and tragically, and much to my shame,

I slid back into the abuse of alcohol, to a very seriously dangerous level of alcohol intake and abuse.

And I found recovery and rescue at Hebron Colony, which I mentioned to you earlier before the program.

Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina, which is a wonderful recovery facility,

Christian recovery facility. They are also not a clinical organization or ministry.

They do not accept any money from the government, and they also are strictly Bible -based.

And just out of curiosity, I just wanted to compare some of the similarities and differences that Home of Grace may have.

For instance, we all had jobs when we were at Hebron Colony. You had to have a job that they would assign to you.

I was the garbage man. It was a really great job because I actually was able to drive, nobody else could.

I used to drive a garbage truck around, pick up everybody's garbage, and bring it to a large bin.

It had its downside, but I think it was the best job on the campus.

I was very much envied by all the other students.

We called them students. Do you call them students at Home of Grace? We call them clients or just men.

We refer to them often as the men. Do you have jobs that they are assigned, or how does that work?

Yeah, what we do, it would be better if I just kind of explained kind of the overview.

Yes, definitely. As far as the jobs part, we do what we call soft skills.

So we're not a work therapy program. The former place where I was employed, they considered themselves a work therapy program, so the work aspect was a vital part of everything they did.

In fact, if you couldn't work, you were not a part of that program. Here, that's only one slice of the pie.

The work aspect is we implement what we call the soft skills. That is, we teach them the basic skills, if they're lacking, and most are, to be honest with you, of just job etiquette, discipline, responsibility, the priorities of living by principle, and the work ethic that is a result of those things.

The overview of our program is in 90 days, is 12 weeks, and what makes our program very unique, and probably

Heber and some others do this, but there's not many out there that do this, is we have counselors that meet with our men individually every week.

So some places that I've been a part of, in 90 days, they may get three or four sessions where we have a schedule, and every man that comes through our program has individual counseling every week.

In addition to the individual counseling, on Fridays, all the counselees that a counselor has meets with them in a group setting, so he gets individual counseling, and he gets group counseling as well, where we're, you know, all kind of issues are just, you know, talked about in group counseling, perhaps some exercises that are in place, team -building things, you know, all things appropriate to the

Scriptures and appropriate to addiction. Furthermore, we also offer workshops, and so every week there's a workshop that's associated with that week, and as men grow up, kind of like Vacation Bible School, you know, they go to week two, they have a belief workshop, they go to week three, they have a workshop on anger, week four on rejection, and they kind of go through, and what does the

Scripture say about these things, and how do I deal with these things biblically, and are there biblical examples of men and women who have undergone these things and dealt with them, and, you know, etc.,

and so we kind of work through these hot topics that are associated, and so they go through 12 workshops, and those are three -hour workshops, and each week is a group in and of itself.

We also have chapels that we have every night except Wednesday, and so we have chapel services where all the different folks come in, and they're able to kind of minister to the men, love on them, teach and preach, etc.,

and then we have the classes, and the way the work schedule and the class schedule goes is that throughout the day a man, you know, and we have two phases, so a guy who's in week one to six is in phase one, and then seven to twelve is phase two, so when one phase in the morning will go through classes, he'll do three hours of classes, and then everybody lunches, and the other phase will be working, and then that flip -flops in the evening, so in the afternoon the other phase goes to classes, and the other phase, and vice versa.

So this is kind of the, we accomplish a lot in 90 days. I know that's a mouthful, but we accomplish a lot in 90 days.

You can tell with all that. Now is the chapel, or are the chapel services mandatory?

They are. Everything's mandatory. Everything. There's no exception. Chapels are mandatory, workshops, everything.

Do you have to be a Christian of any kind to, or at least become from that background to enroll in this ministry?

We don't mandatory anybody to be a Christian, but we are upfront that we are.

That's the only thing. We let everybody know who we are, what we're about. We let everybody know that we are emphatically

Christian. We have some folks that come through here that are self -proclaimed atheists, many who end up getting saved.

We have some who are Mormons, some who come through here who are all kinds.

Some who come through here are Muslim, but they know that when they sit, yeah, but we're very effective with what we do.

At least we try to be the best at what we do. These guys know that. When they come, somebody has been convinced that this is the place for them.

They'll show up. We get all kinds of folks. Most of the folks come through here are very familiar with at least the

Christian culture, if not Christianity itself. Right, of course. You're in Mississippi. I'm sure one of the biggest problems that any ministry or church in the heart of the

Bible Belt would have is nominal Christianity, people who think they're Christian, but they are dangerously wrong.

Am I right? That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah, we have a number of folks who are sold on the nominal

Christianity or even the prosperity gospel.

We have to work through that, but most of that, by the time they leave, they walk away with a clear understanding.

They can accept it or reject it, but they have a clear understanding of what Scripture teaches, of faith in Christ, by grace alone, through faith alone, from the

Word of God alone. All of these aspects are present, and they're taught many times in many ways to this day.

Amen. We're going to a station break. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. I want to just give the website for Home of Grace in the event that I fail to do so later.

It's a very important thing to do. Homeofgrace .org is the website for the ministry we are discussing today.

Homeofgrace .org. They're also available on Facebook. But we hope to hear from you soon with your questions, so don't go away.

We will be right back with Yogi Taylor of Home of Grace. I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests,

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Iron Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 conference in Atlanta, my new hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the G3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there. Learn more at G3conference .com. G3conference .com.

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Thriving Difference. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Yogi Taylor, director of Home of Grace Addiction Recovery in Mississippi.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence, and you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

And we do have Melissa from Gulfport, Mississippi.

I would love to hear Yogi's thoughts on how his theology determines the way he deals with helping others caught up in addiction.

I know there are differing thoughts as to whether addiction is a sin versus a disease. So how do his beliefs determine what camp he would fall into?

That's a great question. That's a great question. You know, in the area of counseling, you've got the secular and you've got the

Christian. And of course, if you look at the matrix model, where you've got the secular and the

Christian, and then there's this group here in the middle that's integrated, right? Well, my theology personally, and I can't speak for the entire

Home of Grace, because there are some of us who differ, but my theology is

I'm a biblical counselor. I am not an integrationist. So I ascribe strictly to the scriptures and any exercises or any teachings or workshops, it is strictly from that.

We do have a few that would not consider themselves biblical counselors, but they are sound counselors as well.

And they are thoroughly Christian and thoroughly biblical in their methods and in their teaching.

And I would, you know, I would applaud their efforts as well, but I lean on this side of the fence.

When it comes to, is addiction a disease or is addiction, is it sin?

We are a hundred percent, and I can't speak for the Home of Grace here when I say this, we are a hundred percent resounded that it is sin.

It is sin, absolutely. The idea that our addiction would be a disease is, or that somehow we've inherited it.

You know, I can't put, you know, diabetes and, you know, my love for math, you know, on the same plateau there.

No, it just doesn't work. When I look at the scriptures, what I see is

I don't see codependency. I don't see addiction. I don't see, what I see is idolatry. I love self and I love my sin and I'm in this bondage that I can't break through and I need help.

And that's how we address it. We, you know, we go straight to the heart of the issue and men have all kinds of things they want to bring to the table and they want to say, what about this?

What about this? What about this? But the real issue is idolatry.

We have made our, perhaps our recreational functions or perhaps it was, you know, there was some medicinal purposes to whatever addiction we had, but we have made it an idol in our heart and we have longed for it and loved it and we have put it on a pedestal above everything else.

And so, that is the heart of what we talk about when we talk about, is it a disease or is it a sin? No, our addiction is strictly symptoms of our sin.

Amen. Now, that is not to say, obviously, I'm sure you would agree, that this sin brings about disease and it brings about physical addiction that often requires medical attention.

So, I'm not saying that this is a disease that warrants those to merely pity those who are addicts.

They are to view this as a sin and it is a voluntary sin and it is a sin that will, as the scriptures teach, bring one to hell if they do not repent of it.

But it does bring about, obviously, medical issues just because of the fact that you're taking poison into your body.

Absolutely, and we understand that the ramifications of addiction are vast.

I mean, when we deal with men, we deal with men on a whole range of issues from their extensive use.

And some men, a lot of guys come in here and they've been using hard for not just years, but for decades.

And we understand those. But in the truest biblical sense, just speaking of how this affects our counseling, we talk about the idolatry, but we also talk about, hey, it's, you know, not everything's physical.

You know, here's the thing. Here's the real issue.

Some issues are medical issues, but all issues are spiritual issues.

And we understand that. And so, we operate appropriately, I guess, just to complement what you were saying.

Amen. And by the way, I don't know if we really made it clear what your role is specifically at Home of Grace.

Sure. I'm the program manager, director here at the

Home of Grace. I oversee all the program ministries of the

Home of Grace. I work with a team, the facilities director and the executive director.

And we, of course, are able to minister to the men and kind of channel the processes and procedures and policies of what takes place in counseling and during a man's stay here.

So, my role is multifaceted. Although I'm a woman who manages, you know, from the top down in one sense,

I'm also very involved with the men. I handle some of the discipline things as we're trying to keep men accountable.

And I'm very involved in some of the daily activities. Now, when

I went to Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina for my addiction recovery,

I was in a minority being an alcoholic. I was actually surprised by that.

The vast majority of people there, and I believe there were 30 to 30, actually maybe 40 men there when

I was there, the vast majority were addicted to crack, heroin and Oxycontin and perhaps some other pharmaceutical, legal pharmaceutical drugs that they were abusing and selling and all kinds of things.

And out of that 40 -man campus, there were only about three of us that were drunkards.

What's the typical reason people are going to Home of Grays? Well, you know,

I have some statistics from last year and out of the men who have graduated our facility, which we had, those who completed our program, we had 411 in 2015.

Out of those 411, 34 % were on opiates and pain medication.

Now, that's a high number for that. Alcohol is only 18%.

And that was more than marijuana or cocaine or even benzos, which were all in the single digits.

But opiates is really pain meds, these type things. This is the thing we see the most.

And is it strictly a facility or a ministry for substance abuse?

I mean, you have all kinds of things that are cold addictions today that don't involve substance abuse, but is your facility or ministry specifically and strictly substance abuse?

Well, we concentrate on addictions. And so, addiction and substance abuse, it could be pornography, it could be gambling, it can be eating disorders.

All of these things would be well covered. You just substitute alcohol for pornography in the subject matter and in counseling because the hard issues are still there.

And the struggles and the tactics and some of the boundaries that we have to set up is tick for tack.

So, they're all there. So, we are not, just to answer your question, we are not strictly an alcohol and substance abuse facility.

By the way, Melissa, thanks for that question. Melissa from Gulfport, Mississippi. And also, thanks again for introducing me to Yogi Taylor.

And I almost said Yogi Bear, believe it or not. I had to stop myself. We have a question from a pastor in North Carolina, Sterling Vanderwerker.

He's in Greensboro, North Carolina. Thanks for the show. Thanks for the great show. I have a question for you.

Like you, I have a secular background and significant history of substance abuse. Thank the

Lord, He has saved me and kept me for over 40 years. I have a friend who continues to struggle and stumble with drug abuse.

We have ministered the gospel to this man for a number of years, but he continues to revert to his sin.

Perhaps a program like yours could be of benefit to him. What separates your ministry from other gospel substance abuse ministries?

Well, you know, we're partnered with other gospel rescue missions and ministries, and I don't know that there's one answer per se that would say, hey, we're head and shoulders above the rest, because we're all ministering the same gospel, and some ministers are effective at doing so than others.

But I would highlight the individual counseling that we provide, and I would highlight the fact that we are biblical in doing so in our counseling, that we have a format here that we go by.

And that is, when you look at the scriptures and you look at how the Word of God says that all scripture is inspired and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

Now, I know that he's writing to a young pastor, and this applies in context to the ministry of the church, but this is none the same.

Nonetheless, this is the format we use. When men come to our program, we teach them, we reprove them, we correct them, and we train them in areas of righteousness for fatherhood, for churchmanship, you know, for husbandry, all of these things.

And so we do our due diligence to come along churches and to equip these men the best we can that they would receive proper equipment from the church, both theologically and in the intimate discipleship setting that the

Lord has intended for the churches. So that's kind of where I would land on that, and just say, you know, you need to find out those good places out there.

There are good places that you came from, and I would say that about our place here at the

Home of Grace. Well, thank you, Pastor Sterling, and send my greetings to the brethren and Christ in your congregation in Greensboro, North Carolina.

We have a listener in Hilltop Lakes, Texas. Linda, I'm enjoying hearing

Yogi's conversion story in ministry. I have a 10 -year -old grandson with severe dyslexia who is receiving two years of training at Scottish Rite in Dallas, Texas.

I'm assuming that's affiliated with the Masons. Does Yogi have any special instructions for parenting of a child like this, having had learning disabilities himself?

Thank you, God, for this ministry of deliverance from addiction and hearing how it is being operated. Linda in Hilltop Lakes, Texas.

Well, that's a great question. Both those questions are good. I appreciate

Linda's question. I actually, my severe disability is in dyslexia, and it often comes out in my speech, too.

One time, Chris, I was talking to my wife, and I said, what was the actor's name again?

Jack Nicholson. She reminds me of that all the time, when his name comes up, because you're talking about Jack Nicholson.

So I understand the severity of dyslexia.

I just received a great deal of treatment myself from the learning lab and the resources that my school provided, and they helped me a great deal to be able to focus in a rhythm, and that was me, to be able to focus in rhythm.

And one thing that helped me, and this is just, Linda, I don't know if this is going to help or not, but one thing that helped me is that they learned that I was more of an audible learner.

And so when I began to take tests and when I began to take things, reading was very difficult for me, but I learned if I could read things and think of it in storyboard.

So I do this with my children. I have four children, and we homeschool all four children.

Well, one's still young. She's not quite homeschool age, but we homeschool, and I do this with my children.

If I want them to memorize colors and numbers and whatnot, I may tell them a story concerning the numbers and the colors, and man, they got it.

They memorized it very well. And so working through a lot of the things that I had to get through as far as tests and as far as essays and whatnot, that became a very significant tool for me to be able to learn in storyboard.

And still to this day, when I read the scriptures, you know, I will often listen to the scriptures, and I get on to biblegateway .com,

and I just, you know, I listen to the scriptures, and it's very profitable for me in that area.

I don't know if that helps. There's other little things, but I hope that would be something that, you know, would help

Linda out. Well, thank you so much, Linda, in Hilltop Lake, Texas, for contributing to the program with your question today.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder, are there any Yankees listening to our program today? We've got a listener from Mississippi, from North Carolina, and from Texas, so anybody north of the

Mason -Dixon line listening? But I will gladly keep accepting any of your questions from no matter where you are, whether it be the heart of the

Deep South, or whether it be from Canada, or Europe, or anywhere you are, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. The question that Linda from Hilltop Lake, Texas, asked reminded me of something that is of concern to me.

Do you share my opinion that far too many children are being overly medicated and over -prescribed with medications for things like dyslexia and other things such as that?

Yes, I do share with that very much so. You know, two aspects

I have to just differentiate here. At the Home of Grace, we understand that we are not a medical facility, so if you come in having to take medicines, or if you're on medicines for, you know, whatever, be it anxiety, depression, or whatever, we require a doctor's, a physician's note, you know, saying that it is okay that you come to our facility while you're off these medicines, you know, that that is okay.

Because we're not a medical facility, and we respect those who, you know, who've worked hard to evaluate somebody who needs it.

But I will say, and Home of Grace shares this view, but this is primarily my view, that there are far too many people who are who are greatly medicated with issues that need not be medicated.

You know, I, for example, you know, I grew up as a product of an ADHD, you know,

ADD, ADHD child who was off the chain, and I see this in our schools a lot, in fact mostly, but I see this in other places where we are quick to medicate these children, not because we want them to really deal with the issues, or to really, you know, address really the real problem, but as behavioral modifications.

This kid can't sit still in class. He obviously needs some Ritalin, or this, you know, this teenager, he just can't seem to focus.

We got to put him on some Stratera, or, you know, or some Vyvanse, or something, and what happens is these medicines often get abused, and as these children are growing up accustomed to a life of medicating themselves for issues, instead of dealing with life on life's turns, and having men and women who can come along, these children, and help, you know, minister to them, and parents who are faithful to, you know, to be with these children through these, you know, through these years, what we have is, you know, generation or two that have grown up just learning how to deal with life by medicating themselves, and when they get to adulthood, those issues don't go away, and then they break into self -medicating themselves with the abuse of drugs, etc.

So, I agree, a little lengthy explanation there, but I agree that they're extremely medicated, and it's a far greater issue than just saying, you know, it's over -medicated.

It's a generational thing. It's a mindset. It's a cultural atmosphere, and we have far too many doctors that are willing to prescribe meds up on a whim.

Well, thank you again, Linda, in Hilltop Lake, Texas, and we have a listener all the way in Slovenia who has a question for you.

Okay. Please ask Brother Yogi Berbera to give us his assessment on the relative importance of confession and repentance in the addiction emancipation process.

It is of utmost and critical importance that we confess our addictions as sin against God and repent of that sin by seeking the

Holy Spirit's supernatural intervention to cleanse our hearts, minds, and desires. What role does confession and repentance play specifically in freeing us from destructive addictions?

Absolutely. Well, I would tell you that it plays a crucial role.

First, confession of our addiction as sin. If we can't confess that we have harbored idols in our own heart, then we're not going to get very, you know, we're not going to get, you know, much past that point in a healthy manner.

But confession is, of course, we confess truths about God, we confess our sin before God, but confession to one another is one of our

Lord's greatest healing tools and mending tools that He has given us.

And so it plays a, you know, it plays a crucial role in what we do. We talk about confession and we have, you know, confession with family, with spouses, with children, you know, with friends, and we talk about making amends and doing it properly.

You know, these things are often talked about and they're almost abused and almost used as a blanket, a blank check to say, well,

I did all these things, I got treatment, I'm better. Well, no, we talk about reconciliation and restitution.

You've got to be reconciled and you need to do all that you can to see if you can restore that relationship to make amends and not just simply get a blank check.

When we talk about confession, we often go to, we often go to 1

John 1 verse 9 where, you know, it talks about, it says in 1

John 1 verse 9 that, we confess our sins, He is thankful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

And I say, well, this is the point of conversion, this is what takes place, but this is also a healing agent as the

Word is alive, it's living, and it's active, it's also a part of our sanctification. It's not just that we're forgiven and that we walk away and we say,

I'm forgiven, I'm forgiven. No, there's a cleansing process as well, and that's the sanctification process, and a part of that is our confession of our sin and our confession to one another, and that cleansing aspect is actually a healing aspect as well.

And so we emphasize that, that biblically this is the Lord's will, that we must be those who confess our sin to one another.

We know that only God forgives sin, we are not of some who say that you confess your sin and, you know, but if there's an offense made, there is forgiveness given because of an offense, and we understand that as well.

But the confession aspect of that is used mostly in a reconciliation and restoration healing aspect.

Well, thank you Joe in Slovenia, and please keep listening to Iron Trump and Zion, and keep spreading the word to your fellow

Slovenians about this program, and perhaps you can even somehow get a hold of the ear of Melania Trump, since she is from your country, and we look forward to hearing more from you in the near future.

We are going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence, unless it's about a personal and private matter and you prefer to remain anonymous.

So we hope to hear from you soon with your questions, so don't go away, we'll be right back. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

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Chris Arnzen here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.

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Got a really good spot in the magazine right next to an article with a critique of a new series involving

Harry Potter. So I'm sure that's going to draw a lot of attention since that was such a popular book series for better or worse.

But we are, if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is

Yogi Taylor, Director of Home of Grace Addiction Recovery in Mississippi. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks,

I know that even Christian recovery ministries disagree over the 12 -step method that they have borrowed from Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous.

What is your guest's opinion on the 12 -step method? Okay, well, the 12 -step method is, let's just say this first off, it's not a bad method.

It's not, you know, there's a lot of folks that disagree and come down pretty hard and whatnot on both sides of the fence, but it's a good formula.

It's not a bad method. The problem with it is that it's not Christian. And it's a practical exercise, practical method, and it works, and it's worked for a lot of people for many years, and that's why it continues to thrive.

We are not a 12 -step program, or we don't have any 12 -step you know, we don't implement 12 -steps, but that's not to say that we're anti -12 -steps.

We recognize that they are very successful in a lot of ways. The thing about it is, it's built upon Christian principles, but the foundation of the gospel is not there.

That's the problem, and that's the problem we have with it, because we truly believe that no matter what a man does, if he gets sober, or if he doesn't get sober, or if he, you know, it all comes down to the gospel.

Yes. This man is not truly going to be changed unless he's changed from within, and that that only comes when his heart is regenerated by the

Holy Spirit and made alive. Amen. So we're not, you know, we're not anti -12 -steps here at the

Home of Grace. We want, you know, we want sobriety for all kind of folks. We just acknowledge that it's incomplete.

It is best when it's put into practice post -generation, if you will, with a lot of other additions there.

Yeah, there is obviously some differences that the 12 -steps have, especially in their order with biblical theology.

Like, for instance, this, I can't help but to be amused by the illogical order of the first and second, the second and third step, because in the second step of Alcoholics Anonymous, it says,

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

The third step is, Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a

God as we understood him. So you're already admitting you're insane, right?

So how is an insane person going to be choosing a God according to his understanding if he's insane?

And that would be, for your listeners out there, when I say it's incomplete, that would be a prime example. Right. And of course you have a, you have perhaps an unconsciously but very clear

Pelagian influence here, because the very last step, having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we try to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in our affairs.

So you are achieving a spiritual awakening by your labors and efforts and so on.

Now, I'm not saying, I am very open and honest and delighted to declare that I am a five -point

Calvinist, but I am not saying that we are to wait around and have God zap us to heal us of addictions and anything else in our lives.

Sanctification does involve our efforts. Sanctification does, not justification.

But this is saying that the spiritual awakening is coming from the steps after we've completed them.

So anyway, and I do, I have to say that I am leery about the way that the

AA and NA groups have in many ways resembled a cult to me, because they really, even though they deny with their last breath that they are a religion, they are very clear.

It's very clear to me that they are a religion. They have all of the trappings of a religion, with the exception for the most part of singing, but they pray, they have a teaching about God, which is false, unless you happen to be in an exclusively

Christian AA or NA group. And they teach you how, they even use words like salvation, and things like that, but they're talking about something entirely different.

And my last complaint about these groups is, I have to say that I really, if I had a daughter,

I do not have a daughter, but if I had a daughter, or if I had a wife, or if I had a sister or mother who was an alcoholic or a drug addict,

I would not want them to go to these recovery groups, because they can be dangerous places.

You have people who are required by law to go to these meetings, who are sometimes dangerous criminals, and the whole concept of anonymous is that they do not reveal those things to anybody else in the room.

So, you could have your daughter or your sister or your mother or your wife sitting right next to some person who is a sexual criminal.

But anyway, I just had to get that off my chest. And, but thank you very much,

RJ, in White Plains, New York, for that question. I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable with my rant there,

Yogi. Well, well, let's talk about the things, the fruits that you look for in a person who is at your recovery ministry that makes you very confident this person is healed, this person has kicked, by God's grace, this addiction.

Well, uh, I was with you until you said healed and whatnot, and then

I was starting to think, really and truly, those of us in this ministry, we understand by trial and error that some guys, they just don't think, you just don't think they're going to get it at all.

And man, you know, another five years roll around, and they're coming back, and they're, you know, they've been to seminary, and they're pastors, and they're doing great, another 10 years, and that kind of thing.

And then some guys are just, you think they're going to do wonderful, and a month later, you hear they're back in jail, and you just, so it's hard to look at these things, but there are some things that we can look at, apart from simply time.

Time is the true teller of all, but there are some things,

I think the heart of your question is, what kind of things do we look for?

And I'll tell you, we look for number one, is a man teachable?

Is he teachable? Is he learning? Is he humble and respectful?

Is he accepting correction? Is he listening and yielding to the counsel that's given to him?

The issue, you know, it's cliché -ish, but it's true. The heart of the issue is the issue of the heart.

And, you know, as a man comes in, and he's teachable, he wants it, he's accepting correction, he's accepting the advice, he's moving forward in all the appropriate measures, these are good things for us, and we can do great things with a man who, great things with a man who will put himself out there and be teachable.

And also, you know, by the way, we talked about confession, but you know, a man who's confessing these things, he's uncovering the mental and emotional baggage that he, you know, men come to our program,

Chris, and they, you know, they come to us, and the world may see these guys as addicts and, you know, drunks, or they got all kind of names for these guys, but, you know, in these counseling sessions, when you hear their stories, you begin to understand, you know, their life and their life choices and some of the things they've been through.

And when a man will sit down and pray through and begin to begin to forgive an abusive father, begin to work through some of the things that he's seen and done, and, you know, when he begins to kind of wrestle with, you know, some of these some of these great tragedies that's happened in their lives,

I mean, these are all things that are for us are good signals of fruit that we're looking at.

And that's not always seen, you know, in the cafeteria. It's not always seen on graduation day when they give their little speeches.

But it is here and there when we have these counseling sessions, when we have workshops on rejection and anger, you know, when the classes and they start asking their questions and they're very thought -provoking questions.

These are the things that come to light that the Lord blesses our hearts with, knowing that our ministry is not in vain.

And we have Harrison from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who is asking, would your ministry there at the

Home of Grace have a strict policy of kicking those students out after one slip of going into drug use or alcohol use while during their stay there?

Well, there's before I answer that, let me just say this.

We're a facility that is, you know, it's an open facility.

It's on, like I said, it's 167 acres. We have different, we have nine different cottages.

You know, and each cottage has four rooms and four guys to a room, that kind of thing. So we're spread out a little bit.

But we are still put back. So if a man slips as the questioner,

I mean the fellow asked the question, it's not necessarily a slip. A slip is a volitional choice to either leave our premises to go get drugs or to have somebody bring them to them or to sneak them in.

It just doesn't just happen. And so, you know, understanding that aspect, we say absolutely.

If a man is drinking alcohol, if he relapses on any level and uses drugs while he's here, he is dismissed.

And, you know, it's unfortunate. I know it's hard for a lot of folks who, especially who've struggled, to hear this.

But I would also say, I think the folks who struggle with this and who are in addiction, they understand the value of a zero tolerance.

They understand the value of, hey, when a man shows up in my room and I'm struggling and he shows up high, you know, that'll destroy those other men in the room.

You know, you could have one guy come in here with, you know, a bottle full of pills and, you know, could ruin the lives of 10 or 12 other men.

So we understand that man, if he slips, you know, as the wording was, but if he has relapsed, then his program here with us is over.

And we do allow that man to return after 90 days. We allow that man to return.

We're, you know, we want him to receive help, but his time with us is over.

And I'll tell you, Chris, we don't, you know, we're not quick to just dismiss guys.

We understand that there's got to be a balance of truth and grace.

And so, you know, sometimes guys, they need tough love and they need it.

And, you know, they'll show up and they need, it's like, hey, their attitude's bad. They don't want it and we've worked with them and they just keep showing attitude.

And sometimes they need to leave and they need to go hit rock bottom. And then, you know, then they come back and we've seen this and guys will come back from time to time who have fit that scenario.

And when they come back, their attitude is different. You know, they've been to a dark spot in their life that scared them and they did things that they thought they'd never do, participated in things they thought they'd never participate in, and they come back and they're a lot more humble and they're a little bit more quiet and they're, you know, they're a lot more teachable.

And the Lord does good things. The Lord frustrates the plans of many for His purposes.

And we understand that. And sometimes that is, you know, a man leaving our program.

But we understand the other side of that is that we understand that, you know, men struggle.

They just struggle. You know, we don't expect men to come in our program. You know, they've been on the streets for 10 years, you know, running game, doing their thing.

And they come in here and they're going to be lanky. We understand that they're going to play the same tricks and manipulation is going to be a part of what, you know, what they do and say.

And so we work with this man. But I will tell you, since we're on the topic of correction and discipline,

I will tell you what we do here at the Home of Grace is we don't emphasize breaking this rule or breaking that rule.

We emphasize a principle and we talk about men living by principle.

So we have seven principles. And the way we minister to the men is that if any man is, you know, receives correction or if any man receives discipline of any measure, it's because he violated one of these seven principles.

And it's, I'll go through them. One, principle one is to be humble and respectful.

Principle two is to be honest and truthful. Principle three is to be accountable.

Principle four is to be responsible. Principle five is to be trusting and patient.

Principle six is to be thoughtful. And then principle seven is to be neat and orderly. And so when we correct these men, you know, kind of like I do my own children.

You know, I talk about, you know, if my child, you know, says something that's out of line,

I'll ask, I'll say, you know, well, was that respectful? Should you have said that? You know, was your response appropriate?

You know, it doesn't really matter what they said as much as the disrespect that they showed.

And that's what we try to emphasize with these men. And we only have 90 days to do it. But we try to help these men learn.

Hey, it's not so much about, you know, did you do this or did you do this? But were you accountable?

Were you responsible? Was this the right thing to do even when nobody was here? To make sure you did it.

And so, I mean, don't get me wrong. We got rules. You gotta obey the rules. But the rules, they serve as a catalyst for us to address these men by principles.

Yeah, at the facility I was, there were a group of guys who broke into the kitchen late at night and they got all the ingredients they needed to make pruno.

I don't know if anybody recognizes that word pruno. It's basically like prison booze.

Where they took fruit and bread and water and sugar and made a cocktail with it and let it sit out in the woods in a bucket until it fermented.

I'm sorry if I'm giving a recipe here. But they were found, the reason why they were discovered is they came back from after this became an actual alcoholic beverage.

They came back after a night of drinking, smashed out of their minds and so they got exposed and they were dismissed.

But as you said, there is mercy in that people can come back from the place I was at,

Hebron Colony. They could return but they are dismissed and have to go back to the end of the waiting list again.

But I think that is that hard, tough love is important, especially in an atmosphere like that when it's really you have people who are in some senses a walking time bomb there with regard to addiction and to be lenient on those things, you may never get anywhere in the recovery process, all right?

That's right. Yeah, you have to have a have to have a strong backbone. It's, you know,

I often refer to ministering to ministering to the men in here at the home of grace.

It's like holding a newborn baby and I just bear with me on this illustration.

I mean when you hold a child, a newborn, you hold that child with the strength of 10 men.

I mean a hurricane won't pull that child out of your hands. But yet you're soft enough to where that child could sleep like a baby.

And, you know, that's kind of how we have to minister and it's the same thing in pastoring. But, you know, here at the home of grace, we have to have a firm hand, you know, that of 10 men while at the same time, you know, we have, you know, we have grace and we have love and we love you, man.

But you're not going to get away with this and you will know that there's consequences for your choices.

Amen. Before I forget to ask you, what is the relationship that former

Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee has with home of grace? Well, our executive director

Josh Barton, he is the grandson of our founder Bill Barton and he and Mike Huckabee are good friends.

I don't know if they're good friends, but they're certainly friends and he has come and he has participated in some of our fundraisers as the keynote speaker.

We have a hog ride. We call it the hog ride every year here.

I think they meet at First Baptist Gulfport and I think we had something like 800 motorcycles that signed up and they ride.

I think it's like a 10 mile or 20 mile ride. I'm not really sure how long the ride is, but it's a fundraiser and they have all kinds of events and whatnot and he's participated in that.

Apparently he rides. This was before my coming several years back, but he is he's also been the keynote speaker for other things as well.

But he and Josh have a relationship and he knows what we're about here at the home of grace and he respects our mission to minister to men who suffer with addictions and to do so with the gospel.

I'm sure he respects others who help as well, but I think he has a heart for those who would tackle the root issue of needing

Christ in their life and he's made that known to us. So we're very thankful for our relationship with him and have a great respect for him.

I have some friends in the Christian Motorcyclist Association, the CMA. Maybe I could encourage them to get involved in these charities, these fundraisers that you have with the motorcycle.

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And let's see here.

We have B .B. in Carlisle, Pennsylvania who says one of the things that I disapprove of in regard to the more prominent recovery groups and ideology is that they insist that it is vital that all those who have been delivered from addiction continue for the rest of their lives to call themselves alcoholics or addicts.

I do not believe that if one is delivered by the blood of Christ from a sin, they need to continually identify themselves, especially publicly with that sinful label.

For instance, we do not go around introducing ourselves to people if we are former fornicators, adulterers, thieves, or murderers as a fornicator, adulterer, thief, or a murderer in our conversations.

We have had that nailed to the cross and no longer have it as a part of our identity.

Does your guest have any opinion on this? Yes, I get a very strong opinion myself.

I would agree with your caller or the one who sent in the question.

We stand lock and step and for all those same reasons, we believe men who are saved by grace through faith we are you know, we understand that they come with all kind of baggage and when they are, you know, regenerated, they're made new, we believe that they are made new.

They are through and through from the inside out. I mean, there's a total metamorphosis that takes place and the

Bible is emphatically clear that we are new creations in Christ, that we are the old man and the old things have passed away.

Behold the new, all things are new. And so we tell our men, you know, we don't use words like we're delivered and you know, we're completely healed.

We don't affirm men that they won't struggle forever. We affirm men that if they have truly come to faith in Christ, then they are a new creation in Christ and that they think different, they speak different, they live different, they process information different, they treat their spouses different, they raise their kids different, the old way has passed away and it doesn't just include drugs and alcohol.

Everything's different. And so we emphasize that and we do not continue to call addicts addicts.

In fact, we don't even refer to our men as addicts. We don't refer to them as addicts or alcoholics or any of that.

We just refer to them as men. We just say our men because that's what they are. They're men struggling and some are lost and some are born again.

And those who profess Christ we acknowledge that and we say yes, you were you were born again in Christ.

Amen, and we have to go to our final break. I think the time is just flying by like a bullet here today. We have one more break and we'll be right back after these messages.

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No, that's just the sound effects. Uh, if you just tune us in for the last 90 minutes, we have had as our guest

Yogi Taylor, director of Home of Grace Addiction Recovery in Mississippi, and he will be our guest for the next half hour to come.

If you'd like to join us, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who says, figuratively speaking, a successful completion of the seven steps

Yogi Taylor has outlined would bring a man to be sitting at the feet of Jesus and in his right mind.

For the demoniac, for the demoniac in, for the demoniac to get to that state, demoniac activity had to be overcome.

Just how conscious are you of being engaged in spiritual warfare, and is this something we can pray for you for support?

That's something that we can pray for you to support you with. With such a high, with such a high turnover of men, it must be nigh on impossible to keep in regular contact with those who finish the course.

Do you actively seek to partner these men with individuals, churches in their own areas, and who would qualify as being acceptable?

A reformed church? Wider than that? Only a church with a recognized individual or individuals who can provide ongoing discipleship, counseling, and care?

And that's Murray in Kinross, Scotland. And another reminder that I need to get new glasses, so I could have a hard time reading this email for some reason.

But, do you have any reply to the statements and questions that Murray in Kinross, Scotland has provided?

And I can repeat some of it if you want to. Sure. Well, let me, if I can remember all the questions, let me address the first one.

She asked about spiritual warfare. Murray's a man, Murray's a man, by the way. It wasn't

Mary, it was Murray. Absolutely, I'm, you know,

I'm not, I'm not a charismatic, I'm not charismatic in my theology.

You know, and some folks in mercy ministries, they're extremely charismatic, and, you know, there's a devil behind every bush kind of, kind of, kind of thing going on.

That's not how we operate. But with that said, I will say, there is, you know, spiritual warfare is a very real thing, and it is real here.

You know, guys come in here, and, you know, it's, you can see, you can see how their addiction has almost taken a physical, you know, a physical stronghold on them, if I can use that term.

And, you know, that comes out in attitudes, it comes out in, you know, language, it comes out in bizarre behavior, and these kind of things.

And she cited that man, the demoniac. Well, and if you look in that passage in John, the

Lord healed that man, that man was sitting upright and in his right mind when others showed back up.

And so we know that the healing agent for even the demoniacs, and those who are deemed as, you know, those who are mentally unstable, we believe the gospel is the answer for them as well.

And as I said earlier, you know, there are some medical issues, but all issues are spiritual issues.

And so, you know, there are many times, Chris, when we're here with men, and it just seems like there's just a spirit up on a room or a cottage or a certain group of men, and we'll take these men in here, and we'll talk with them, and counsel with them, and we'll spend great, you know, times in prayer.

We do have a number of men here, and he mentioned the vast number of folks that we have, but we stay connected with every one of these men, and we do so primarily through their counselors.

Because we have six counselors, and these counselors all have very intimate relationships with their counselees.

And, you know, so we stay very connected, and we have a staff meeting every morning where we talk about these issues, and as a counselor, you know, he gets a sense that things are developing, things are getting worse, or they're getting better, or whatnot.

We, you know, we talk about client issues, and so we meet every morning, and we discuss these issues at hand, and from time to time, we'll have two or three of our counselors say, hey,

I think we need to go over to this cottage, and we need to get, you know, XYZ, you know, you know,

Tom, Dick, and Harry, and we need to gather them up, and we need to pray for these men, and we need to do so, and they'll do so every day for a week, and they'll just pray for these men, so I just want to just emphasize that although I don't think there's a devil behind every bush, it is a very real factor, and man, it's something that is, and it is something that is just, it can get downright scary sometimes, and again,

I don't have the charismatic theology that I know some do, but I will tell you it really can when you see some of these men, and what addiction has done in their life, and how how enslaved they are to this addiction.

Well, thank you. I can't remember the second part of the question. Okay, let me go back to Murray's question.

Let's see, I have to enlarge this because it's some reason came across with a very tiny font size.

So, let's see here. Murray, the second part of his question says, with such a high turnover of men, it must be nigh on impossible to keep regular contact with those who finish the course.

You already addressed that. Do you actively seek to partner these men with individuals and churches in their own areas, who would identify as being acceptable?

I think where he's coming from is, do you have a specific sphere of churches that would only be, that would be the only ones that you would be comfortable as a ministry referring someone to?

Like, for instance, I'm assuming you wouldn't refer somebody to a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall or Mormon Chapel Ward, and he's saying, you know, can you put these men into contact with churches?

And he's asking a Reformed Church, wider than that, only a church with a recognized individual or individuals who can provide ongoing discipleship.

In other words, it could be a mainline liberal church out there that would do nothing about those things with an individual leaving your ministry.

So, any comments on that? Absolutely. I got plenty of comments. So, I think what he is really, you know, what we're really talking about is, from our vantage point, is our aftercare.

So, what do we do with that? How do we prepare a man when he leaves our program to stay engaged, to continue to be productive in society and family, you know, to, you know, to refrain from relapse and to be proactive in his recovery?

All of those things, we have an aftercare and what we call an action plan.

Now, this action plan or aftercare plan, it involves four things, and this is kind of how we deal with this by way of answering your question.

And this is, number one, when a man gets to about week 10, we start talking to him you know, and sometimes before, but we start putting on paper, where are you going to live?

Are you going to have a job? Are you going to go to a transitional house? Are you going to go back home?

Do you have a family? So, we want to know where this man is going to live, what city he's going to live in, where we're home.

You know, we had got on the phone with a family yesterday, and in the absence of the counselor, she called me and she was asking, hey, my son, we're thinking about, you know, we got a house for him, you know, we rented this house, and you know, and I told her,

I was like, you know, I do not recommend that any man leave the program and go be by himself at a house, you know, he's got a whole house for himself.

And so, you know, we have these issues. Where are you going to live? That's a big deal. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but it really is.

The kind of environment that they're going to subject themselves to, is it a safe place that's conducive for recovery?

And then secondly, is the church? What church are you going to be a part of?

And is it a Bible -teaching, Bible -believing, Bible -practicing church?

And we talk about that. We talk about, hey, these are some things you need to think through. Is it a church that is just a good old -boy church?

Is it, you know, is it a church that's going to, you know, disciple you, that's going to minister to you?

And then what we do is we work with this man for a church in his area. Many men, surprisingly enough, may have what they consider to be a home church, or a church that they went to when they were little.

But many men don't have churches. And so we will, and we have contacts all over our area, from Louisiana to Florida, all the way up to Arkansas.

I mean, we're, you know, we have contacts all over. And, you know, we get on the horn, and we start, we will contact a church, probably a church that we're familiar with, and we look at their stuff on the website, you know, we kind of do some soft investigation type stuff.

And then we'll call that church up, and we'll talk to a pastor, associate pastor, someone on staff, and then we explain what's about to take place, and this man is coming back to your area.

Let's just say it's Corinth, Mississippi. Hey, John Doe's coming to Corinth, Mississippi. He wants to be a part of, you know,

First Baptist here. He is graduating from the home of grace. He's done very well, and, you know, and then we try to initiate that engagement there.

The third thing we do is that we try to plug them into a group.

This is the Celebrate Recovery is really the mainstay.

We look for Celebrate Recovery groups. We try to get these men into some type of group where they can continue to have a workshop experience.

I say experience, but kind of be able to identify with some folks. Sometimes men are comfortable with AA, and that's what they want to do.

It's something that may have worked for them for years. And so we say, okay, if that's what you're comfortable with, you know, we don't dictate exactly where they go as much as we want to plug them in where they're still being, you know, the nourishment is still taking place there for their recovery.

And then the fourth and last thing we do is for the aftercare, their aftercare plan, is we set them up with an accountability partner.

Now, we don't call them a sponsor. We call them an accountability partner or a mentor, because this is someone whom we we are identifying as someone who can encourage this man, yet give this man tough love when he needs to.

And we don't put any burden on the accountability partner, except to say, all we ask that you would help keep him accountable to the things that he is committed to do.

And he is committed to go to church, he's committed to be a part of a group, and he's committed to make contact with you, you know, be a, you know, once a week or whatever you guys decide.

And, you know, someone who can kind of build a rapport and relationship with them if there's not one already there.

And the way that we do that is we'll have that man on the phone, and then we'll have that man, our man, you know, here, and we'll have a conference kind of call, and I'll outline these things that I just outlined to you now.

And then I talk about, you know, these things, and then I email or mail, snail mail, or text, sometimes

I text these guys an accountability, I call it accountability form, document, and it's a whole list of questions.

And I ask that person if he would be willing to meet with them and just ask a few random questions.

And those questions go from personal to church, family, you know, questions, you know, about their life and recovery.

And I say, look, we want you to sit down and minister to this man and just kind of keep some accountability with him.

Now, if I can say this, and I know I've been talking a lot here, but I say this,

Chris, we want that to happen in the church. And our primary focus with the discipleship is to call up, you know,

First Baptist wherever, or, you know, or church wherever, and then get this guy plugged in and talk with him.

Is there somebody in your church that understands addiction? Is there somebody in there that would, you know, or perhaps this guy will know somebody, or the man in the program will know somebody.

And we believe that the church is the primary purpose, the primary focus,

I guess I should say, of where discipleship needs to be taking place. And so that is where all of our efforts really go, is to get the man back into church and to get him where he's under the teaching and ministry of the

Word of God under, in a discipleship format. Well, thank you so much,

Murray from Kinross, Scotland. Please keep spreading the word about Iron Trepans Iron in the

UK. We always appreciate hearing from you. One of the things that I have reservations about that is very prominent in the

AA and NA recovery groups is the testimony time.

They very often dominate these meetings, and you wind up hearing a lot of people that very often sound like they are reveling in their wickedness and romanticizing either their past or present addictions, going on and on and on with all the gory details of them.

And I understand that there is a time and a place and a way to properly give a testimony.

And, you know, I have even myself on this program. I don't give every gory detail of my life, but do you see where I'm coming from?

What is your opinion on that? I know that Hebron Colony, where I went, they would not allow men to get up on a soapbox and start to give every gory detail of their lives.

And if somebody did attempt that, they would be stopped. And I actually agreed with that policy.

What is your thought on that? Well, first off, we teach the men that if you're going to give a testimony, it needs to be a testimony of the

Lord and not a me -a -money. Because that's what we hear a lot of times is a me -a -money.

It's all about me, and it's 25 minutes of all the horrible things I've done.

And we have a zero tolerance for what we call war stories. So if you're telling war stories, and you're talking about way back in the day, we immediately jump on that.

And look, that is unacceptable language and speech, just as if you were cussing somebody out.

Because we feel that that is dangerous and even damning to the soul.

And so when men want to share, and we do allow a time, we have a morning, we have an evening chaplain, excuse me, evening chapel, but we have a morning devotion time.

And we allow our men who are seniors, we allow them to come up there and share some of the things that God's doing that's supervised.

But we do not allow them to share anything that resembles a war story.

And they know that. And by the time they're a senior in our program, and they've been here for 10 weeks or 11 weeks, they know that.

They know where the lines are that they don't cross. And you would be amazed at some of these men that would get up here.

And I'll tell you, Chris, I've been in tears listening to some of these men share about the things that God's doing in their life.

You know, hey, I want to tell you, I forgive my ex -wife, you know, and she ran around on me, and she did this, and you know,

I did this, and blah, blah, blah, or I forgive my father. You know, he, you know, he, you know, you just hear these things.

And some of these guys will share the good things the Lord's doing in their life.

And not in a way that highlights all the bad stuff, but in a proper way, in a way that glorifies the

Lord. Amen. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I wasn't trying to insinuate that I believe that there should never be any personal testimonies given, so I don't want anybody to get me wrong.

Because I believe that also there are certain frightening stories that should be heard, too, that God could use to prevent somebody from returning to, or entering into addiction, or even dabbling with, with substances.

But I'm mainly referring to the people that you can really easily hear that they are reveling in these things, that they are wearing them like a badge of honor.

And almost reminiscing as if they missed them or something, you know. And obviously that's, if anybody had earned the right, for lack of a better phrase, to give one of those war stories, it was

Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle, the Apostle Paul, and he didn't. You know, you know certain details about him, that he rounded up men and women to be executed for their faith in Christ before he himself was transformed by Christ.

But you don't hear all the gory details about what he did. You hear enough to know his background, where you, you also, on the other end of the spectrum, you wouldn't want people to be dishonest about their backgrounds and totally avoid being open about something from their past that the

Lord rescued them from. But, you know, I just, that is one of my pet peeves.

Well, I want you to have a few minutes before we go to just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today,

Yogi. Sure, you know, I would start by saying that, you know, for those who have family or friends out there, or that, you know, they know somebody, or they know somebody who knows somebody,

I would, I would first and foremost encourage them to seek out their their pastor, seek out men of God, seek out those who are

Bible -loving, growing, Christ -loving believers for help and assistance.

I would, you know, just really want, you know, folks to know, I want to put a plug in for the

Home of Grace. We are, we do what we do, we believe to honor our

Lord. You know, our motto here is to glorify God and enjoy

Him forever. We believe God is best glorified when He is enjoyed.

And so we, you know, we understand that you can't enjoy life when you're enslaved to these addictions, and it's all connected.

And we have a women's campus. I haven't mentioned the women's campus, but we do have a women's campus in the next town over in Argosha, Mississippi.

And, you know, they minister, you know, their biblical ministers just like we are here at the men's campus.

But I want to put a plug in just real quick and just say, you know, I would encourage folks out there who know someone who is struggling, you know, to seek out help for them.

I would contact the pastor, contact the church, and get their, the church, the pastor involved in an appropriate biblical faith -based recovery facility if they could.

You know, if they're able to somewhere that's not taking government money, someone that's not instituting, you know, trying to medicate folks, but someone who's preaching the gospel and doing it soundly, carefully, and not using the

Word of God like a sword to butcher people, but like a scalpel and reaching in there and cutting out the cancer and bringing healing.

And so that's what I would say there. Amen. And the website is homeofgrace .org.

Homeofgrace .org. I would appreciate it, Yogi, if you could stay on the line because I'd like to say goodbye to you off -the -air as well.

Okay. But I want to close the program with a breathtaking song written and recorded by my friend

Deborah Antognano, a former Jehovah's Witness who was rescued from that cult by the grace and mercy of God, who is now a born -again believer in Christ.

She has a song, Captives Be Free, that I have adopted as my own personal anthem in regard to my own soul being set free from alcohol addiction.

And I hope you enjoy Deborah Antognano's song. To liberate your mind

Controlling secrets Yet you will find the need

To be set free And the

Lord says Captives be free

Just come to me