Beckwith STR II

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr

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White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States It's 1 -877 -753 -3341 and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White Okay, oh, oh are we on oh, hey,

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I just Just checking to make sure those that those all those those folks with the signs and that they're really upset with me

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Aren't yeah Okay, check that one over there. I think okay. We have one over there.

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All right, send the dog over there We have Zeke the Jesuit trained attack dog Who's going against his natural inclinations right now, but he is defending us.

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And so we're holding out actually I think he's sleeping in the other room We're holding out against the hordes of Rome here

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I Like I said, you either got a laugh or yeah, or you got to cry one of the two and if If you're listening to this and didn't see the blog article today, you have no idea what's going on, but it's okay it's it's alright just go to the the

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August 9th 2007 If If the blog still there by the time you get around to hearing this and you'll see what on earth we were talking

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I tell you we know how to get folks stirred up. Don't we and we don't even try you know, you just You do what?

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Oh, you knocked you knocked the feet off. That's a good job. What are you doing from banging on it? Brilliant.

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Oh Apparently the keyboard did not like that Well, we've got we've got them outside dangers outside and dangers inside.

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Yes Here you go You know how many people are listening and all they heard was boom and the whole feed died

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They were being overrun by them now That's good, that's that's good you got a little bit too into it there for a while.

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Oh Anyway May have no idea what in the world we're talking about, but it's been an interesting 72 hours around here no two ways about it and What can

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I say? We are trying to get ready here

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We have everybody back now. Are they slowly coming coming back now? That's slowly coming back.

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Okay, that's good I Trying to get around to continuing our review of the stand to reason interview between Greg Koukl and Frank Beckwith but most of you know that Because there has been a small amount of interaction not anything

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Actually worth talking about between myself and and dr. Beckwith, but on silly things

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That things have gotten a little bit odd and strange, you know now I've been accused of a doctoring things and and all the rest of stuff and we've of course demonstrated that The substantive issues that we have addressed we've raised have been raising since May Have all gone without any any address at all, but anyway

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One side plays the other side has to say and the other side just a twist with the other side I'd say I'll let you figure out who's who by the way

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I forgot to link and I'll do it as soon as the program's over I was on with Jerry Matitix on Iron Sharpens Iron today

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I'll link to that as soon as the program's over and that was interesting because I Had to drink an entire amp energy tall boy just to be able to talk as fast as Jerry It's it's tough to tough to keep up with with Jerry Matitix the fastest talking man.

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I've ever met in my life Anyway, we are reviewing the interview from stand to reason Sunday night We got more than halfway through the sections

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I want to play so We're gonna take some we'll be ready to take phone calls.

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Probably. I don't know 40 minutes after something like that 877 -753 -3341

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Of course, there's all sorts of just the only way I can describe them as nasty folks out there

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Who are very very very brave behind keyboards, but will not ever back up what they have to say in in real life

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We've also discovered That's somebody I'd be really interested in knowing if it is

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Guardian Has registered my name James our white org and made it redirect

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Catholic answers You know, you know that the other side has got real problems when you know

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Envoy has to filter out a omen org and you've got engaged in such infantile childish behavior is that it's

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One side just ain't doing so good. I mean, I wouldn't even have time to think about doing stuff like that I'm too busy doing meaningful stuff to even think of stuff like that, but They they don't they they do it.

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So anyway we had gotten to through the first hour in essence of the of the program and They took an hour

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They took a break at the top of the hour and they began the second hour and you can tell Greg Koukl is just Moving on into the next point and what he's been trying to do is

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He has been trying to Draw a clear distinction between the

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Roman Catholic doctrine of justification and the Protestant doctrine justification and it was ironic in talking with Jerry Matic's that he feels that that is the issue upon which the

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Roman Catholic Church has gone into apostasy on not well Actually, he wouldn't say it's Roman Catholic Church he would say that the enemies of the church have taken over the church over the past 40 years is on this exact issue and So Here He's Coco's trying to get these issues laid out

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He's trying to to get it to where people can understand it and so he asks a very good question concerning the nature of indulgences the

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Treasury of Merit and I really felt that That Beckwith response was was really really unfair here

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And I think this is where where he really mistreated Greg Koukl now, of course Catholic Sam Well, this is where Greg Koukl mistreated him

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Listen to it and and see what you think for yourself Here it is. It's right in front of me.

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When did somebody put it where I could see it? Huh? All right Here the two thoughts that came up to me

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I've already made a point about some textural issues But I had two thoughts that came up to me the way

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I've heard it was the Explanation I've heard in the past was the explanation that you gave me that that we are not in a state of kind of actual perfection and so we have to have a

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Period of time or a place or something where we have this transformation So we are ready to move into heaven and this is what

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Paul purgatory where there's a purging that's done But as it turns out on the Roman Catholic view

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You don't actually have to spend that time there in purgatory because there's a system of indulgences including a plenary indulgence

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Which is a full indulgence in which someone can circum circumvent

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Purgatory and go directly to heaven and this is based on as the Catechism Said as I read it the merits of Christ and the merits of the

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Saints and Mary So the merits of Christ at least are available to the follower of Christ who dies in grace to avoid the the the the torments of purgatory

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And they are made available through this indulgence system why that then it seems to me if that's the case then the justification for purgatory is

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Is made null and void because the merits of Christ are available for us to avoid purgatory if?

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They are mediated to us through the indulgences that done by the Roman Catholic Church So you have a question the quest well.

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Yeah, the question is then Why is perfect now did you catch that Do you have a question?

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How could you have once been a? Convinced Protestant hear that presentation which is in essence saying hey

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The system you have embraced Dogmatically is inconsistent with itself and then let dead air go by and go you got a question

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That that's I don't I can't begin to understand that And you can sort of see what was coming from from this point is obviously the

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Catholics it will see that's a trick question That's not a trick question. This is the stuff that matters to us You know

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I know they're Roman Catholic all purgatory. I said, that's just all side issues doesn't really matter Yes, it does matter

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I mean Roman Catholics some Roman Catholics may not take it seriously, but it is a

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Constituent part of what Rome has defined as dogma over the years It's very necessary then if indulgences can get you off from purgatory through the merits of Christ Couple you see the problem that I'm talking about raising here

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Yeah, this this all this stuff you're bringing up had has virtually nothing to do with why

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I became a Catholic And then I again I stop right there, how could it not how could it

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How could it not have everything to do with why someone becomes a

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Catholic These are dogmatic teachings of the

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Roman Catholic Church and unless he is already risen to the place in Authority in the

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Roman Catholic hierarchy Whereby he can Define what is and what is not important day feed a doctrine you know he could keep saying well

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There's only four pages in the Catholic Catechism on indulgences There's barely that many pages in fact.

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I don't think there's that many pages on the personality of the Holy Spirit Does that make it less important? There are four pages there are more distinct sections on indulgences than justification for crying out loud

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So it's there it is a part of the teaching of the church But it's not why

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I became a Catholic well you know if you're gonna if you're going to admit to being a cafeteria style

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Catholic Where you you pick and choose what you will and will not believe? Okay You know it's you know

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But I thought that right that that Frank Beckwith was this you know big he's teaching logic

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And so things have to be related and logical and consistent And I'm not seeing the application of those things in in the context

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Roman Catholicism. I will Answer it if you want me to yeah I would it but the reason is is only four pages in the

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Catechism on it The reason is Frank it is it's it's not just it We're talking not just because to find out about you why you became

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Catholic But because that you were the president of the ETS and became a Roman Catholic then raises significant questions about the differences to which between Catholicism and Protestantism on these vital issues like authority and justification which were in some degree were issues that you had yourself so I'm not raising questions about authority and justification you are going through particular doctrines and Asking me to justify them right elated from the general theological tenor of the church, and that's

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Isolated from the general theological tenor of the church, what does that mean?

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Honestly, what does that mean I? mean if these are accurate questions if these are questions that Accurately represent what

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Roman Catholicism teaches these are questions that have been discussed if it's in the Catechism Then Rome knows it's important and Rome has discussed it

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How can that not be the the tenor of the church unless what he's saying is well?

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you know the church has become very liberal and Therefore as a result it's you know out there doing its thing and The theological tenor has changed,

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I don't know, but what what does it mean that it is not part of the theological?

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It's it sounds like a complaint here that he doesn't want To be asked to justify these things

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I Didn't hear him saying other than well. This isn't why I joined the church well if the gospel proclaimed by the church

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Isn't the reason that you join the church, then what is there must be some Obviously from my perspective less central reason

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I Mean I thought that we as Protestants believe the gospel is the main thing and if you join for another reason

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Then you're thinking the gospel isn't the same isn't as central any longer is that is that it that I think is is not fair And it's not my experience or the way in which

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I became a Catholic now I do have answers to these questions, but I just think that you know if if this was going to be a

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Debate you should have told me ahead. Okay. Well then I know if that's what you feel like for that I actually entered the show kind of thinking this is going to be a time where I'll be able to share my journey

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You know in a in a safe place, and I and I just don't sense that okay well No, I I guess you and I had a little bit different expectations here share my journey in a safe place if If the president of the

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Evangelical Theological Society became a Mormon and Then went on a program like this would would anyone have a reasonable expectation that what was being provided was just a place a safe place to share his journey

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Remember I played at the beginning of the last program From the start

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Mr.. Kochel said we're going to disagree today We're going to be disagreeing with another because we're gonna be talking about things that really mean a lot to us

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So why would there be disagreement if this was just going to be a safe place to share my journey?

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Where there would be no challenges? This seems to be part and parcel of of the

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Roman Catholic Convert syndrome that I have observed many many times Roman Catholic converts want to be able to make the claim

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Well this I discovered this the early church fathers said this and if you dare say well wait a minute

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This early church father said this and this early church father said that and you claim this early church father meant this but this hadn't

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Yet developed and and oh you're you're being uncharitable. You're being mean I as a convert to Rome Demand the right to make assertions, but I demand the right to make them without being challenged

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And if you challenge me you are Uncharitable that seems to be the demand that is that is being made not just by Dr..

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Beckwith, but seems to be made by by many But I don't want to pursue something that isn't what you had in mind, and I don't want to be untoward in my questions here

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I thought partly when I started out the show talking about they were going to disagree at a lot of things this was

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These were the kinds of issues that would be Coming up, and this is my expectation what we talking about would be talking about not just a matter of reporting

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You know your journey as it is because the journey raises questions to listeners about exactly

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How could how do we make sense out of out of this? This decision that you're making because you didn't just make a change of denominations you went to what you thought was the true church and Therefore that leaves the rest of us kind of not in the true church

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And you adopted doctrines that we disagree with or that that you held before but now you disagree with and so it's a matter of Trying to figure this this thing out

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But I don't want to be contentious about this and if if you would we can just well Let me change the mode briefly a couple of things about the doctrine of indulgence is it is

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Obviously there are some good reasons why Protestants raised questions about them Factor they had a big factor in Lutheran Luther's breaking away from from the

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Catholic Church But the thing the thing that a lot of people don't realize that it they really make such a minor part of the catechism four out of the 1 ,000 pages

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Deal with show of indulgences Okay, I'm sorry But I don't believe that the number of pages

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Determines the importance of a teaching as I said how many pages Specifically are dedicated to the person and deity of the

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Holy Spirit You know that that's that's not how you determine the importance of something

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This is a doctrine that touches on the concept of the treasury of merit it touches on How Rome views the idea of what it means to be a saint it touches upon?

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How much merit do you need to enter into heaven so that you can have excess merit it? Reveals the fact that this modern well, we don't know how long purgatory is we don't even know if time exists in purgatory

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Idea is just that it's a change It's not what was believed before and there therefore there has been a change that means for literally hundreds of years

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You could have believed one thing as a faithful Roman Catholic now You can believe something else and people's lives were deeply deeply deeply impacted by that former belief

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People gave great amounts of money because they were so concerned about their loved ones suffering for long periods of time in purgatory

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All of this goes back to what the meaning of justification is I've said many times the clearest differentiation

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Between Rome's view and the biblical view of justification I've ever had in debate was with father Peter Stravinsky's in debating purgatory not justification

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Because there was that you have this massive difference between what it means to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ And and what it means to to have to undergo sada spasio

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I was listening to the the Bible answer man discussion with Jimmy Akin and and I challenged him to show me where in Ludwig Ott it says that sada spasio is the application of the merits of Christ.

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Well, I can do that. I hand it in my book I'd forgotten I had done that. I he said well, I don't have it with me. So I handed you well

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I'm not gonna be paging through a book. It's not there. He never says it Sada spasio is not the application of the merits of Christ.

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It simply isn't So these things are vitally important It tells us the difference between what it means to have

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Christ's righteousness imputed to you and Christ's righteousness infused into you so that you become subjectively and objectively pleasing to God So that the reason you go to heaven is because you are pleasing to God and so when you commit sins that destroy that you're

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No longer pleasing to God's therefore. You don't get heaven etc. Etc. Etc. Etc These are important issues.

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So say well, there's just four pages This is just a clear illustration of what the underlying differences are all about That's why saying well, there's just four pages has nothing to do with why

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I became Roman Catholic Really makes me go. Well, have you really thought through what it means?

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To be a Roman Catholic when it talks about Christ merits when it comes to indulgence, it's it's not referring

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It's it's referring to the suffering he underwent as a man that We can that can be distributed to us in the process in which we

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Become more virtuous Christians throughout our throughout our lives. It's not that is not

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What indulgency RM doctrina says? So who do we believe Frank Beckwith or the post -vatican to apostolic

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Constitution the revision of indulgences who speaks for Rome? Who speaks for Rome? That's what

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I want to know Has Frank Beckwith read indulgency RM doctrina? That's a fair question, isn't it?

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Why would that not be a fair question? I think it's a fair question. Have you read indulgency RM doctrina?

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I mean, you're the one telling us that viaticum. It's in the 13th can of Nicaea means indulgence

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So I would think if you're gonna if you're gonna put yourself out there and start making these statements

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We have to do our homework You know Why why did why do the converts?

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Why do they have a completely different standard in essence than anybody else? I'm talking about the aspect of Christ merit as it refers to the eternal

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Removal of our sin It's a it's talking about the temporal consequences of sins and that aspect of Christ.

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It is actually in many ways it's almost an unfortunate term that That that the catechism uses because it doesn't precisely mean the same thing as It does when it's referring to Christ's death removing us of our sins in the way

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I like to look at it Greg is that it allows What essentially penance and indulgences and these sorts of things do

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I look at it as a as a loving father Disciplining his children so that the children can become more like he wants them to be

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The reason that a person in classical Roman Catholic theology

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The reason that a person goes to purgatory is not because a loving father is sanctifying them or disciplining them

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These are legal Punishments temporal punishments attached to sins and those sins are imputed to us and therefore those legal punishments must be taken care of they must be atoned for and They are atoned for not through the application of the sufferings of Christ, but through our own.

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That's why you do penances That's why you go through the things you do temporarily in this life and in the life to come in the sense of suffering in Purgatory, that's what sada spacio is about now

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If you know, I applaud if Roman Catholics want to reject that but don't deny that that's what has been taught

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That's that's the problem Okay, that's that's the issue that needs to be to meet needs to be considered.

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This isn't this isn't just a father Making us more like Jesus how on earth can can purgatory and sada spacio and the the the

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Distribution of the treasury of merit. How can that make me more like Christ? How can some?

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Saint I've never heard of who dies And he has excess merit How can that excess merit being transferred to me to get me out of purgatory make me more like Christ?

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How does that work and Does that not result then in my standing before God when

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I finally entered his presence? Clothed the righteousness of Christ marrying the Saints as well as my own How can you avoid that and that that's liberating not?

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Oppressive right but it but in terms of the Catholic system though that isn't the purpose of Isn't the purpose of indulgences to take time off a purgatory and that's why we say and actually to take time off penance

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It's okay thing about time is actually all right Well, it's like all the six Pope all the six altered it so that it would be more clearly.

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Okay. Okay. Well, how can any Pope? alter Something that was at one point true.

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I Knows anything about the scapular, you know about the promise that if you you die wearing the scapular then

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Mary's could come down to purgatory at a certain point in time and Remove you before a certain point of time if you die wearing the scapular

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How many thousands tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of Roman Catholics have died?

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Believing that's the case and then well the Pope but the Pope altered that just change that So was the promise a lie before that and then just wasn't needed anymore.

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Was it ever true? I Mean obvious in my perspective the whole thing is a lie but It's so easy and glib

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For people to be able to well, you know, it's just been altered It's been changed just using that term time then in a very very general sense, but let's just say take off penance then

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So if the penance is meant I guess I'm can I guess I'm can now I'm left very confused about this because I will

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I will admit to you. It is confusing and Okay, I and look I think

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I'm a smart guy and I've reread this stuff all the time, right? Right. Okay.

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Wow Okay, did you hear that? Yeah, I stuff's confusing. I'm a smart guy and I read this stuff all the time

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He started reading this stuff in January Has he read indulgent arm doctrina if he did why there's plenty in there that explains this why not just refer to that I wonder or is it maybe what he's been reading are these secondary sources these these sort of westernized defenses of Roman Catholicism, maybe that's what it is.

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Who knows? I don't know. Well, let's let's continue to press on here Here's a little section about nice early church fathers that J.

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But you chef's kid recommended I read and and some more on church history and and it and I was actually shocked to find and it's and this is

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Amazed me because I had delved much into the early fathers when dealing with Mormons mm -hmm, and but somehow

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I missed all the other stuff and that is to say I dealt with issues of God in Christ and in the

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Trinity and things of that sort and Didn't really deal much with the practices of the early church And so when

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I for example discovered that the Council of Nicaea which gave us the Nicene Creed during that time we have the practices such as That Council of Nicaea actually in its 13th canon mentions indulgences not by name but refers to the practice

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Related to purgatory Was the indulgence is related to the doctor. I don't think it's I'm no,

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I don't think it relates to protein I'd have to reread it. It's a very brief canon, but well, let's let's read it because this is one of the issues that I've raised

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To dr. Beckwith on the stand to reason board have gotten zero response in regards to this

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Canon 13 now what you need to realize is when the Council of Nicaea meets They have one primary thing they're dealing with but they don't just meet for that.

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There's also Canons that are passed that generally have to do with disciplinary issues

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Administrative issues practice issues things along along these lines and Canon 13

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Says concerning the departing which would be those who are dying The ancient canonical law is still to be maintained to wit that if any man be at the point of death

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He must not be deprived of the last and most indispensable Viaticum there's the term that we need to look at that's

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Where the assertion is being made But if anyone should be restored to health again who has received the communion when his life was despaired of Let him remain among those who communicate in prayers only but in general and in the case of any dying person

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Whatsoever asking to receive the Eucharist up the bishop after examination made give it to him. So here is an assertion

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That is being made that when someone's dying they should be given the Lord's Supper This is the last and most indispensable Viaticum there to begin the

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Lord's Supper now. What did that look like back then? Well, it didn't look like what it looks like in Rome today in this sense

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The whole idea if you were if this were to happen today a priest would come and he would have Consecrated elements in a in these special pics saboreum

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Monstrance, you know the tabernacle in the church Because this is where the presence of God is That stuff is still at the time the

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Council and I see about 700 years down the road the idea of Of Transubstantiation and the idea that consecrated hosts are actually the body and blood of Jesus after the time of the

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Eucharist is Is down the road someplace that kind of physical? Aristotelian Accidents and and and and substance a lot of stuff not a part of of the presence of Christ of people which is spiritual

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So they wouldn't be coming in with those things But the Eucharist has already been elevated above even where it is in the

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New Testament this point And so a person who's dying Wants to have that now, of course, there's everything right with that.

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I know that in our own churches. There are people who are shut -ins who are very ill and It's perfectly appropriate for the church

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To go to them and to into celebrate the Lord's Supper with them as a part of the church Nothing nothing wrong with that at all.

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If that's something that's requested. That's great fine and wonderful But here's the problem here you have the former president evangelical theological society saying

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Something that the vast majority of Roman Catholic theologians and historians would never ever ever say today

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Would never ever say today why because they recognize that the concept of indulgences first requires and if an indulgence is a transfer the

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Treasury Merit you have to have the Treasury Merit first The Treasury Merit had not developed yet Even from the

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Roman Catholic even even go with Newman and the acorn in the tree stuff. It's not here yet So you don't have purgatory is not here yet the

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Treasury of Merit's not here yet So, I don't know what he's been reading But to say that the

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Council of Nicaea in Canon 13 is is talking about something along the lines of Indulgences it is

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Absolutely beyond the balance. It's just not true. And so I would challenge Frank Beckwith prove it prove it go into the writings of the time and give us a

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Foundation upon which we can believe this to be the case and while you're doing it how about respond to what

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I pointed out about another Canon only a few cannons before Canon 6 of Nicaea which reads as follows

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Let the ancient customs in Egypt Libya and Pentapolis prevail that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these

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Since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also likewise in Antioch and other provinces that the church has retained their privileges and this is to be universally understood that if anyone be made bishop without the consent of the

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Metropolitan the Great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop if however two or three bishops shall from natural Contradiction oppose the common suffrage of the rest it being reasonable in accordance with the ecclesiastical law then let the choice the majority prevail now this has to do with the authority of bishops and What should catch your attention is that?

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Egypt Libyan Pentapolis Who has the jurisdiction there? the

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Bishop of Alexandria Just as the Bishop of Rome had authority in Italy I Thought the

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Bishop of Rome had universal authority well that comes much much later That's not what the

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Council of Nicaea said so Aside from the fact that can 13 doesn't say what Frank Beckwith thinks it says

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I'd like to know how does Frank Beckwith explain? can six of The Council of Nicaea and I've had some

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Catholic apologists even have to go to pseudo cannons Arabic cannons of Nicaea that were not a part of the original try to get around can six amazingly enough they've even done that debate and certainly

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Rome's long history very very long history of Attempting to of utilizing fraudulent documents the donation of Constantine the pseudo is a

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Dorian decretals to prop up the papacy in the light of actual history is is a fascinating study and I assert that if we hadn't had those particular things those particular

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False documents there there wouldn't be a papacy as it exists today anyway, but that's that's another issue so There we have can 13 and canon 6 which side provides all of it which side provides a discussion of it

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I provided citations in my STR blog or comment comm box comments to Catholic sources on The subject of Vatican and what it means, but we can't get responses.

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We can't get commentary from that somehow Dr. Beckwith has time to accuse me of doctoring posts when

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I had actually provided full links to his post and things like that But these issues which might actually you know really help folks to Analyze Rome's authority claims somehow get a mistake.

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Yeah, but you find actually very early on at that time penance

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The notion of the real presence in communion You don't find the obviously the theory of transubstantiation.

35:01

Oh, that's more worked out, but and that's actually you know one of the things that that that There's a difference between holding a belief and having a theory about it.

35:09

Which is that In any event now now did you hear what just happened there? Well, we had real presence, but we didn't have transubstantiation now now many

35:20

Roman Catholics When I have pointed out the difference between real presence and transubstantiation have had a

35:29

Cow how dare you suggest such a thing? but there you just heard

35:34

Frank Frank Beckwith and He's exactly right what what does real presence mean well it it certainly doesn't mean transubstantiation

35:48

You know And that was what was just said was real presence transmit you two different things and that's exactly right

35:56

That they are two two different things one of the things that that you find

36:02

I think very early on Is that these practices and beliefs such as penance confession real presence even the notion of apostolic succession are widely held

36:14

Widely held you know it's funny a lot of these guys what they do is they they see citations especially from the bishops of Rome promoting their own authority and think that that was representative of the entire church and Of course it wasn't

36:29

I would highly recommend people for example look at Cyprian and his relationship with Stephen and how at the

36:37

Council of Carthage The council itself said none of us makes himself a bishop of bishops and yet that is one of the very terms

36:46

Used of the bishop of Rome today is bishop of bishops, and how how for example the deacons at Rome referred to to The bishop of Carthage as as Pope and As father and How these terms developed over time it's so easy if all you're reading is stuff from one side for that one side to spin things

37:11

That's why Debates are so useful real debates are so useful in fleshing these things out or they're not

37:18

Explicitly resisted and to me or did you catch that or they are not explicitly?

37:26

Resisted well you know what the idea of the Book of Mormon was not explicitly resisted in the early church either

37:32

Space aliens were not explicitly resisted Ordination of homosexual bishops was not explicitly resisted because no one thought of these things

37:42

It is amazing When when when Rome should be able to so easily

37:49

I mean if she's the only true church if she's the one true church She should be able to so easily

37:55

Shoulder the burden of the demonstration of her central and unique dogmatic teachings

38:03

It shouldn't be all that tough, and so how is it are you well?

38:09

They didn't explicitly resist these things Well Isn't it up to you to prove that it was actually something that could or could not be

38:20

Specifically resisted first. I mean logically rationally right This is the man teaching logic at Baylor University this fall right?

38:29

So how can he fall for these things? Easy this isn't a matter of rationality.

38:35

It's a matter of spirit that You know I thought if I'm going to If the church was wise enough to Come up with the

38:46

Nicene Creed and then later on able to fix the canon of Scripture and Something that I have challenged him on many times

38:55

In my many times I've challenged him on on the blog and in other commentary that I've done

39:01

You know he really feels the church fixed the canon of Scripture when? When he's connecting this

39:08

Nicaea, but Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon of Scripture Carthage and Hippo were not ecumenical councils the first dogmatic definition of the canon of Scripture from the

39:20

Rome Catholic viewpoint was April of 1546 That's when it was folks

39:26

Disagree with that all you want that's what even the Catholics say at least the ones who are honest their own history Anyways admit that that is the first dogmatic

39:34

Definition is that when Rome fixed the canon I? Would argue that it's not but that's the assertion and it seems to me that they're that they

39:42

That I have to take seriously the practices that that church happened, and then

39:48

I had to ask myself Even if I had doubts about it even if I thought well it may be that they they could have been wrong is schism justified and And if that's something that Paul when you say schism you mean schism you mean like the

40:04

Reformation is that what you mean I'm talking about my own personal separation from the church from you're talking about the

40:09

Roman Catholic Church. That's right I believe that my In the case of those of us that have been baptized to confirm

40:16

Catholic We have a different relationship than those that have always been Protestant That is to say I think

40:21

I have a lower threshold Mm -hmm right Yeah, obviously in Roman Catholic perspective.

40:27

That's true He was baptized Roman Catholic and therefore The question then becomes since he left it.

40:35

Why did he leave it and that's still a big question for me? Why did he leave it? What was it to you know a number of the people who called in talked about how well

40:44

Greg Cockle? Talked about how he had been raised Roman Catholic, but he never heard the gospel And I can't tell you how many former

40:51

Roman Catholics. I know will tell you I was raised Educated Roman Catholics, and I never once heard the gospel

40:58

I Wonder if Frank Beckwith ever said that I Don't get the feeling that he did.

41:06

I just I'm sorry I would love to be proven wrong if someone and no one has I keep asking but I would like to see where Frank Beckwith wrote passionately

41:18

About the doctrine of justification and the imputed righteousness of Christ which he now calls a legal fiction I'd like to know if he ever ever ever wrote debated defended that kind of belief or is it just simply a philosopher and this is just as I said a

41:35

Paradigm shift over time that's that's question here here again. We go with the canon scripture decisive, but it was contributed to my reason

41:44

No, you mentioned I see other you and you also mentioned the canon is it it's sounding by the way

41:50

I thought yeah, I think you said the canon came after Nicaea, but you have the material well you have the meritorious canon That's can in terms of a fixed.

41:57

I'll do okay. Well, then that was 16th century then well no you've got in terms of the

42:02

New Testament canon you have the church Fixing the the 27 books now clearly the

42:09

Old Testament never gets resolved. Yeah, possibly Jeff, but we'll back back up the truck Athanasius Listed the 27 books of New Testament in his 39th festal letter long long about 20 years or more more than 20 years prior to Carthage or hippo and So was he jumping the gun was that impudence on his part.

42:32

I wonder and Then the Old Testament canon has never been fixed that that's that's been left up in the air

42:41

Trent didn't seem to think so, but that then raises all the issues about what the differences were between the

42:47

Greek Septuagint Apocrypha and the Apocrypha and Latin Vulgate that is used at Trent and and all the rest of stuff that that honestly again

42:58

How could anyone no matter how brilliant you are? Cover all these things in three months.

43:04

I mean, I mean honestly it is Not really what happened on the end of first century, but Any in any event, so you see okay, but you see that is your understanding then that it was the

43:16

Roman Catholic Church what we understand to be the authority of the Roman Catholic Church that fixed the canon and That that gave us

43:23

Nicaea that to me makes the most sense well okay, well what's confusing to me is these the historical circumstances around Nicaea for example while Sylvester was the

43:35

The Bishop of Rome he sent two Representatives just like everybody else. So you got 318 representatives the

43:41

Bishop of Rome sends two Yeah, and you have bishops all around the Mediterranean region are making their contribution

43:47

So you don't have Rome that's presiding over this in any way shape or form But that that though I mean that that may very well be count against the apostolic

43:58

Supremacy of Rome, but it doesn't count against apostolic succession or the fact that there are five Central C's or Focuses of apostolic succession in the early church the question of Rome will now

44:09

I stop immediately. This is the old debate once again conciliarism versus papal primacy

44:17

Clearly the Bishop of Rome did not run things at Nicaea Sylvester had basically almost nothing to do with what takes place in Nicaea and You know you do have five

44:31

C's but in Rome is the only Western C Which is what eventually leads to when you look at today you look at The idea of papal primacy in the

44:38

West and what do you have in the east you have collegiality between the major? bishops of the C's in the apostolic

44:44

C's and in the east and Historically, it's easy to see how those things took place.

44:49

But the point is Nicaea cannot be looked at The way it is normally looked at today and acronistically that is

44:58

Nicaea had to fight for its acceptance Over a long period of time it wasn't like everybody already had the idea that you get together and And I've had

45:09

Roman Catholics say this you get together the council does what it does then it submits Everything to the Bishop of Rome and the

45:15

Bishop of Rome says yes or no nobody no B -o -d -y including

45:21

Sylvester had that idea at Nicaea nobody and if you think that's case you're just living in fantasyland, that's just Just ain't true that may be the modern

45:31

Roman theory But that's just another of the many many places where the modern Roman theory and the ancient reality do not mix

45:38

Rome the primacy of Rome is a different question than apostolic succession so you do have in Nicaea Five Central Seas which

45:46

I believe is Rome Jerusalem Antioch Africa Constantinople and did I say Jerusalem?

45:52

No, Jerusalem. I think those are the five and Those all sent, you know, they're all representatives there and clearly one could make the argument that And I'm you know,

46:03

I'm not a historian or anything, but the stuff that I've read on this indicates that That it's that that there is clearly an understanding of one apostolic church with Having a unity between the seas that in fact gives authority to the council the ecumenical council.

46:23

Yeah. Yeah, this is where we Sorry, this is not true Even so I mean so the difference of my point is that the different there's the difference between The question of apostolic succession in the primacy.

46:33

I'm sorry. It's not true The idea of an ecumenical council is a later development

46:41

That's why you can have Sirmium after Nicaea contradict Nicaea because the concept of an ecumenical council and its ultimate authority as a representation of the apostolic church is a later

46:55

Development history shows this to be The case it's all there is to it.

47:01

I mean you can't argue that He doesn't try but you can't argue that now he says

47:06

I'm not a historian fine But you as the president of evangelical you logical society

47:14

Decided to make claims statements as I've read the early church fathers and I found this that near thing

47:19

Well, okay, then what you say you're finding in early church fathers if it's inconsistent wrong is going to be challenged, isn't it?

47:27

and Do we really live in a day where if you challenge someone's statements even about history itself

47:34

That you're uncharitable for doing so I Thought believing the truth about these things that the most charitable thing you could possibly ever do

47:42

Would be to make sure that That the truth is being told now.

47:48

Here's a quote that I just think we may need to just Save this on our hard drives and use it for a lengthy period of time

47:56

Because it's important to hear it I've been I was thinking when I was driving out here because I've thought about your comment that I'm not going to be a

48:02

Roman Catholic apologist It occurred to me since your your change to Catholicism is based on the fact that you think

48:10

Roman Catholicism Represents the true church. Why wouldn't you be a Roman Catholic apologist?

48:16

And I think you mentioned before Well, you're kind of mere Christianity. We talked about this in the phone, but wouldn't mere

48:21

Christianity now be Roman Catholicism? No, therefore it'd be appropriate to promote that or I was never really a

48:27

Protestant apologist. I mean if you think about The works that I published in the areas

48:34

Concerning questions like the existence of God the resurrection Right the issues of abortion all those would apply to both sides.

48:41

All right, and so there you go Don't want to be a Roman Catholic apologist, which is why

48:47

Other than going on standard reason the first program I'm going on to is Catholic answers live

48:54

But I'm not a Catholic apologist. Okay, not going there And that's why

49:00

I'm okay fine But notice I said, but I wasn't a Protestant apologist either now. He's going to be represented that way

49:05

He's to be represented as you know, the Rome has to turn converts into Paul see

49:12

Because that's that's how the journey home keeps people's interest and you have to and and that's why interestingly enough

49:18

You know, I didn't challenge him on today, but I was on the gerrymantics and iron sharpens iron today And he was talking about how he had been this anti -catholic

49:27

When he was at Gordon Conwell, and I remember years ago, this would have been Do you do

49:33

September probably September October of? 1990

49:39

I Had a conversation with gerrymantics. I don't remember why I remember this part, but I remember I was sitting on my desk

49:45

I'm not so sitting on the chair is sitting on desk. I had you know, it's funny how odd things stick in your mind And we are down at Camelback Road Back in those those days and that place doesn't even exist anymore

49:57

It's been that's right flat and turned into a part of a road again And I remember asking

50:03

Jerry on the phone because we were arranging the debates that we had in December of 1990 here in Phoenix I remember asking him

50:12

Jerry you say that you were a a Anti -catholic what books did you write against Rome?

50:20

Well, I didn't write books Articles no chapters in books. No tracks.

50:26

Certainly you would have written tracks that you could pass out around cows No, what debates did you do? I didn't I didn't do any debates

50:33

Sermons, certainly. Yeah, I mean you're an ordained president. Could you send sermons? Were you well, no, not not really

50:38

So what you're saying is you were a consistent Presbyterian not that you were an anti -catholic say and there's there's always this tendency for them to Exaggerate and and and increase their alleged anti -catholicism

50:56

So they're they're more Pauline. I don't get any feeling that Beckwith ever cared he himself said that he always had their own

51:06

Catholic view of the nature of the person of man and Natural law in these things. So he was a

51:12

Catholic who existed for a while in evangelicalism and he's gone back It's it's that's part of the reason

51:19

I think he's a little bit surprised. It's just how much attention it's drawn Because I I just don't get it get the evidence

51:26

I don't have that don't have any evidence in front of me to convince me That he ever said anything like what

51:31

Greg Cokel said in this program when he talked about I was raised in Roman Catholicism I never heard the gospel.

51:36

You never heard Beckwith go. Yeah me either Did you I didn't hear it? like I said,

51:43

I keep inviting folks if you If you say that, you know, that's not the case.

51:48

I'd like to see the evidence I'm open to open to correction the church, which is the understanding of Protestantism Let me say a few things about the nature of Scripture It's very clear in the

51:59

Catechism that in fact in some ways the Catechism Holds almost a stronger view of inerrancy than most evangelicals.

52:08

I'm actually quite shocked at How strong the Catholic Church? Because it doesn't say the

52:15

Catholic Church doesn't say justice in it. It doesn't say in its original autograph. It just says

52:21

The Bible that we have right now Is inerrant so it's I mean, it's actually In that sort of surprised me how how strong it takes a position on Scripture Do you think that's an implicit qualification there or do they actually mean that the translations are the

52:34

I think they don't mean translation Yeah, okay, who they probably think the right so text we have included that or Aramaic or or he right?

52:41

I'm just not sure but I would think was sort of surprised because you know Evangelicals will typically qualify by talking about original autographs and Catholic Catechism doesn't actually do that so that so that's a claim that both

52:53

Which doesn't make a lot of sense unless you go back in history and realize that the Council of Trent Identified as the authoritative version of the

53:00

Word of God the Latin Vulgate Rather than the Greek and Hebrew texts and in fact we a sixtus came up with an infallible

53:07

Vulgate which Was pulled out of circulation when it was discovered to be anything but fallible and infallible

53:14

I should say and so honestly Been to Boston College recently

53:22

Do you really really really really think that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church is big on inerrancy these days?

53:28

any meaningful doctrine of inerrancy I The answer of course for those of you who may be wondering is no not at all

53:38

I need to press on here probably gonna go Like I said before about ten minutes after try to get all these in I want to make sure to finish them up today

53:46

Here's the claim about 1 ,500 years. So it seems to me that the burdens on them But let me let me explain that in terms of the relationship between tradition and Scripture One of the way one of the things

53:59

I had to get over was this what I consider a false dilemma or Looking at tradition and Scripture as sort of adding to each other once you start thinking of them it once you start thinking of Scripture as Something that the church reads and that we as Christians should read the

54:16

Scripture with the church then I don't think of or I think one no longer thinks of the

54:23

Magisterium or the church itself as something adding to the Scripture But something but the entity that in fact reads the

54:31

Scripture and helps us to understand it That's just beautiful the church.

54:36

We read the Scriptures with the church and the church helps us to understand it and so when we read

54:47

About the once -for -all finished sacrifice of Christ which perfects those for whom it's made in Hebrews chapter 10

54:53

The church explains us to explains us. It doesn't really mean that and that in fact you can

55:03

You can approach that sacrifice of Christ many many times in your life is still die impure and and and not be perfected thereby because Well, well because of what the church teaches

55:17

From maybe other portions of Scripture, right? So so that's why that's how we read Luke 128.

55:22

We can find an entire mountain range of dogma in the greeting of an angel because the church

55:33

Explains this to us and and when we go to Matthew 16 Even though the canonical form of the text the only text the church has ever known

55:45

Despite the wackadoodles that come up with Hebrew versions and Aramaic versions and stuff like that on their own

55:51

Not talking about Dave Hunt there though. He tried to do it with axe and then defend it from Matthew, but even the canonical version of Matthew The Lord says to Peter I will give you do so future tense

56:06

Not I am giving you and yet the the church Well, these are only given to Peter specifically and you can go to the early church fathers and they didn't make that mistake

56:17

They recognized that the the keys were given to the Apostles as a whole and not to Peter alone hmm, so so we read these we read the

56:28

Bible the church and the church explains it to us not on the basis of What it actually said historically but on the basis of well what the church wants us to hear

56:38

So it isn't like the Catholic Church says, here's the Bible and other stuff It's that the church developed over time in the first several hundred years

56:48

These letters and and Gospels were distributed throughout the church. There was never a

56:54

Fixed canon until probably the fourth century. So in terms of your chronological question

57:02

It wasn't Which one came first they both developed together they both developed despite the fact that the

57:12

Inspired words of scripture come from the Apostles of Christ and from the time in which they are written.

57:18

They have authority and these traditions develop over time

57:26

Yet they both developed together because we're to read the scriptures in the church, by the way for very much for reading the scriptures in the church

57:35

But the problem is that that's not really what Rome's doing because by defining herself as infallible

57:41

She can only have a monologue If you're infallible The church cannot hear the voice of Christ correcting her because if you're infallible, you can't hear anybody telling you you're wrong

57:54

By definition you can't be By definition Irreformable according to her own dogmatic teachings in regards infallibility the

58:04

Pope by Definition irreformable now what we're discovering is maybe irreformable, but you certainly can

58:11

Redefine anything you want words no longer have meaning there They're made out of putty and you can do with them what you wish and so it's not a which came first Bible or the church they both developed at the same time

58:24

But to be fair Frank it really isn't just a matter of kind of the church working with the believer to help understand the scripture

58:30

I mean the the church at Rome makes a very particular and peculiar authority claim Along with the scripture and that it is the one that can speak infallibly under its proper modes

58:41

For God and and and for the truth, and it's not just a matter of reading the scripture

58:46

And so it puts itself. It does put itself at An equal level with scripture in terms of authority

58:53

I mean there are four different things and this is why I think that the the burden of proof is Is not on the on the evangelical because I I simply hold that the

59:01

Bible is the authoritative Word of God and authoritative for morals And it actually everything to which it speaks

59:07

Rome adds three more sources of authority in the way in the de facto way it operates and Because it's been around for 1 ,500 years that doesn't create any burden on me to disprove their claim it seems to me that they have the

59:21

Thing it's been it's not I'm saying that if you look at the history of the church this connection between them the the

59:29

Teaching authority of the church the formation of scripture is in place for 1 ,500 years

59:39

So when I challenge Beckwith on the STR Comment com box, and I did earlier on my blog which you know

59:49

I I never assumed that he would look at that But now that he's bothered to cite me so as to falsely accuse me of doctoring his citations now

59:56

I'll say okay. Well if he's aware of what's on my blog then he's ignored. What's there, too? But since I go ahead and cite these early church fathers

01:00:06

Saying things very different than how modern Rome puts these things we make

01:00:11

Gregory of Nyssa when he's talking about how we make them sacred scriptures the canon rule every dogma

01:00:17

Augustine's many statements About the supremacy of the written form of scripture to any kind of of oral transmission

01:00:24

How about those things were those in the books that dr. Beckwith read during his reading marathon over the course of three months?

01:00:34

There have been three months when I've gone through Roman Catholic stuff. I never saw anything like that Of course

01:00:39

I didn't start studying Roman Catholicism three months ago. I started studying it 19 years ago 1988 actually it would be specifically when we really got into it, so that's 19 years ago, and I still remember it too.

01:00:53

Yeah, well, but yeah amazingly enough fact I found the Council of the the very issue of the

01:00:58

Council of Trent that I read all marked up and Still remembered it it had not turned into the

01:01:04

Da Vinci Code in the period of time that had passed Between that so what we're really getting here really does come down to an attack on soul scripture, which is what we have here so and Claims made by the magisterium or let's say there are claims in scripture limits

01:01:22

The things that the church can do if anything what it does is it restrains the Catholic Church from going into the directions?

01:01:28

That we find for example in the Anglican Church In among evangelicals,

01:01:34

I mean The openness view all these things yeah, but that doesn't go to the question of the authority that does limit

01:01:41

I mean I agree with you, but I don't even see the creeds as being authoritative in the same sense of the Bible Yeah, well let me just stop right there, and I agree with him at that point the creeds authority is derivative from scripture, but But it doesn't limit

01:01:54

In this sense look at what Rome has done with the Marian dogmas Once you deny soul scripture the the walls are down and And if Rome wants to she can start redefining her own former beliefs

01:02:08

I mean, that's what she's doing now has she not dogmatically I have to agree with Jerry Maddux He's right on this very clearly council

01:02:14

Florence places like that Jews schismatics and heretics cannot inherit the kingdom of God now even the

01:02:19

Muslims Adore the one true God with us and can be heirs of salvation and when you finally get down to how do you put those?

01:02:25

Two things together the only way the modern Roman Catholic apologists can do is they is because the church tells you so Words don't have meaning the only thing that truly has meaning is what the church says right now today

01:02:36

History doesn't really matter we might pretend like we go to it and make arguments from it, but fundamentally

01:02:43

It's what the infallible church says today that matters There you go sola

01:02:49

Ecclesia knows the the creeds are authoritative in the sense that they are derivative from what the scriptures says

01:02:54

But they're not they're not obvious. I mean there look the air now catch this folks Here it comes here.

01:03:01

It comes nothing new here. I mean Carl Keating said this a long time ago You're not gonna pick up the Bible and figure out the Holy Spirit's person, but here it comes

01:03:08

I mean we're dominant right okay, but church And so it's it's it took but that is not but that that problem isn't solved by making an authority claim about an inspired interpreter

01:03:17

It's solved by battling it out on the words themselves. That's exactly you're appealing to The authority of a text and you think your interpretation is correct now

01:03:28

It seems to me that the folks listen to the former president of the evangelical theological society talking about Whether the inspired text of Scripture taken in its context in its original languages is sufficient to be able to answer

01:03:45

The key issues such as the deity of Christ you know That if we're gonna start You know saying things that Jehovah's Witnesses for example are going to hell because they deny the

01:03:54

Trinity I mean That's a pretty strong thing to say if it's something that comes that you have to be a kind of quasi

01:04:01

Greek scholar Who can who can evaluate the text and come up with the Trinity?

01:04:06

I mean who the heck is gonna just by picking up the Bible gonna come up with the Nicene Creed so There you go.

01:04:13

It's not gonna happen folks I Somehow managed to write an entire book on the biblical doctrine of the

01:04:19

Trinity and Somehow managed to document that the doctrine of the Trinity is based upon those three biblical teachings

01:04:26

In fact there's one true God the existence three divine persons and the quality on logically of those persons and and derive that from the

01:04:32

Bible but When you're a philosopher you can't do things like that it's all there is to it and That's what

01:04:41

Rome says and you know the only place that that can possibly lead to fundamentally is

01:04:48

To exactly where Jerry Mattitych about mathematics was in 1996 when he said in the debate on Long Island That we have the exact same warrant to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ We have to believe in the bodily assumption of Mary the church

01:05:06

Not the word Not the word the church How does

01:05:11

Beckwith avoid that outside of just arbitrarily saying I just don't go there. I don't go there How does he avoid it?

01:05:18

That's what I would like to know whoever see I do try to figure out what the words mean See, I think that and you're gonna disagree with me on this

01:05:25

Greg. I will Is that is I think that you are relying on the capital produced by this authority in order to interpret

01:05:33

Scripture now notice what's going on here the capital produced by this authority which he assumes is

01:05:38

Rome and yet when I Challenge him to show me anyone at the Council of Nicaea who believe what he believes not just about one doctrine

01:05:46

But the entire complex of doctrines that defines the Roman Catholic Church He dismisses that all you'd have to be a restorationist to believe what you're believing

01:05:56

But Nicaea is still Rome despite the fact that no one there believes the definitive doctrines that define

01:06:02

Rome today Irrational totally completely, but that's that's wrong for you and Then you say well look

01:06:12

I can pick up the Bible and find all these things really easily Well the reality I don't believe that that's actually true

01:06:17

I think what's happened is that this entire tradition has been built up with all these Understandings of the Trinity the deity of crime.

01:06:24

I agree with that Frank. Oh boy. Oh, I agree No, we all stand on the shoulders of those that come before us but I can stand on those shoulders and they can make their contribution without at the same time be have this authority claim that is offered and the problem with the authority claim is that it goes beyond what the scripture says about lots of Different things that that the

01:06:42

I mean we're taught you know There's Mariology and all the things related to that which we don't need to get into now But why not I wish you had and people yeah, you're always getting that stuff.

01:06:50

What were the last two? dogmat last three dogmatic doctrines

01:06:57

That were defined on the basis of tradition by the Roman Catholic Church de Fide. What are they?

01:07:03

Two of the three have to do with Mary one's papal infallibility

01:07:08

Vatican one the other two Immaculate conception and bodily assumption of Mary you're always talking about that.

01:07:15

Yeah, it's because it's the last three examples We have of Rome saying this is part of the

01:07:22

Gospel you have to believe this So, of course, we're going to talk about that but there are lots of things that Rome has declared on that are

01:07:32

Significant and important for the believer that have an impact in one spiritual life And I think you're an impact on the whole doctrine of the cross etc.

01:07:39

That are not things that are just a matter of a mere interpretation Ultimately, I think it the you know, you can't avoid the fact that any individual all verbal communication has a certain possibility of ambiguity that cannot be circumvented by a mere authority claim and Not only that but go ahead and make that authority claim now you have to interpret the authority, you know when people say well

01:08:01

We've got an infallible interpreter. How many interpretations do you have the infallible interpreter within Roman Catholicism?

01:08:06

All you've done is move the ultimate question back one space and then sort of covered over the tracks

01:08:12

You left in the sand of the process and it's this kind of thing is unavoidable And this is why you have the Bible and believe what you just why should

01:08:18

I believe what you just say? Why should I believe what you just said? What do you just say that all verbal communication is is subject to ambiguity and that by just simply making an authority claim?

01:08:30

It does not follow that new authority claim can itself get rid of that ambiguity the point being

01:08:35

Man, I should have queued this up. But remember At the end of my debate with Mitch Pacquiao in solo scriptura my closing statement

01:08:43

I went out with this big silver book bag And I pulled out the code of canon law and I pulled out documents of Vatican 2 and the accompanying volume with the documents of Vatican 2 and I brought out the cans decrees the

01:08:54

Council of Trent and I put a pile about a foot and a half two feet tall of Rome's teachings on the desk and I said now you tell me this

01:09:04

Clarifies or confuses Romans 5 1 therefore having been justified by faith

01:09:09

We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. You tell me does this clarify it? Or does this confuse it and can you find two

01:09:19

Roman Catholic? bishops two Roman Catholic professors who agree 100 % on the interpretation of that huge body of literature, of course not

01:09:28

So why should you believe it? Dr. Beckwith because he's right. That's why That's why you should believe it

01:09:36

Okay, we're almost there we had This guy who called in sounded vaguely familiar

01:09:44

Look this guy this guy sort of this guy sort of scares me a little bit. We stand to reason hi guys

01:09:50

I'm really enjoying the discussion. I'd like the two of you is I'm also a former Catholic I was raised a

01:09:56

Roman Catholic and at age 34 like Greg I Supernaturally heard the gospel and was regenerated and given the gift of faith and for the last 11 years

01:10:08

I've been just Gaining more and more desire and hunger to investigate church history and study scripture and Greg I Realize you really hit it on the head with the two aspects of this argument which is authority and justification and What I found

01:10:27

I want to I want to refer to a cup just a couple books quickly One of them is by James White.

01:10:32

Okay called the God who justifies right? Yeah, James is we're familiar with James Do you have a question for dr.

01:10:39

Beckwith? We can use my question originally and you've already addressed it But my question was when you called yourself an evangelical dr.

01:10:46

Beckwith What was the gospel of salvation that you believed was accurate and true?

01:10:52

And what is it now? Okay, that's pretty straight Thank you that of course is a

01:10:58

Paul or our beloved algo in channel who called in and Thank you, did you catch it?

01:11:05

Yeah, we we know James White To get away from that name as quick as possible but excellent question that did not get an answer because the rest of the answer went off into first Corinthians 15 and and You know this this basic real, you know, the death bearer resurrection, but that wasn't the point

01:11:25

The point the point really he was getting the point that you know, Coco had tried for an hour and a half

01:11:32

To get the distinctions in the two T in the two positions to be very clearly enunciated and had not been able to do so not because you didn't try but because it takes two to tango in essence on that subject and and he didn't get any cooperation at that point and you know, there is a difference between the two perspectives and I am so thankful at least in 1996 when

01:11:52

I was on the Bible Answer Man broadcast Tim Staples that he at least agreed with me that if he and I were Standing outside of an abortion clinic and someone walked up to us and said what must

01:12:00

I do to be saved? We would answer in a different fashion. We would give a different response to that question then

01:12:09

Then each other and so one more one more quick clip Once again just sort of summarizing what to me is one of the biggest problems

01:12:18

With what Beckwith was saying then we'll wrap everything up and that is basically saying look you can see the gospel

01:12:24

The Bible is insufficient to define the gospel. Here's I put it. This is

01:12:29

Paul actually calls that the gospel Now the question is is there a particular? theory of Justification that's the gospel.

01:12:38

That's a different sort of question And I I think as I said earlier that I think the book you can find the

01:12:44

Reformed and Catholic views both in the Bible But I think that the Catholic view does the best job of accounting for The wide range of scriptural passages

01:12:56

In comparison to the Reformed okay Paul thing so there is there's the assertion of course we

01:13:05

Demure and disagree and say no way is that the case, but that's that's why we debate these subjects

01:13:12

But fundamentally what is being said there is the Bible alone is insufficient to tell us what the gospel is

01:13:17

And that's why you need to have something else to be honest So there is our response To the

01:13:23

STR program. I hope it has been useful to you. I get the feeling that Finally, maybe tomorrow morning.

01:13:31

I might actually get up and there's no big new development. I haven't been accused of You know being behind a plot to take over the papacy or you know, whatever

01:13:44

Who knows? But I could be surprised maybe though tomorrow will actually be you know a little less

01:13:53

Raucous that in that has been but we do this because these are vitally important subjects We do this because nobody else is doing it and folks.

01:14:00

We're not going to back down. We're not going to compromise We're not going to go. Hey, you know, it's the spirit of the age to To think that people's feelings are more important than God's truth

01:14:11

People's feelings are not more important than God's truth and it is God's truth It changes hearts the

01:14:17

Gospels the power of God in the salvation And if you compromise on that you really don't love people and you really don't love

01:14:23

God That's all there is to it. So where you keep doing what we're doing pray for us We'll see you next week on the vying line

01:14:28

Lord willing. God bless We need

01:15:06

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01:15:25

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