WWUTT 1705 Q&A Cessationist Doc, Responsible Spending, Rick Warren Boasting

What does it mean to be a cessationist? How can we help our church steward the money that we give to the church wisely?

And what about that speech Rick Warren gave at the Southern Baptist Convention, talking about these things and others when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary that the word of Christ may dwell in us richly with all wisdom.

Tell your friends about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. It's been a little while since you've been on. It has. Welcome back to the show.

Thanks. It's good to be back. Now something has happened in just the last couple of weeks, but we haven't done a podcast together since this launched for us to be able to talk about it.

So there is a documentary that's coming out that's called Cessationist, and it's

Les Lanphier, one of the guys that has put it together. One of the guys that's directing it, he did the documentary

Calvinist, and also the guys that put together the documentary Man on Fire, which was about Martin Lloyd Jones.

So they're combining forces, and they're doing a documentary called Cessationist, talking about how the apostolic gifts that affirmed apostolic ministry, those who were appointed by Christ to the position of apostle, those supernatural gifts ceased in the first century and are not being practiced today.

So talking about what are we seeing in Charismaticism, what are we seeing in Pentecostalism, what is that?

Is it biblical, and how does it not look like the things that the apostles did to affirm that their ministry was truly from Christ?

So lots of great guys interviewed for this documentary. Phil Johnson's in there. Lots of great guys.

Conrad and Bailey. That was not meant to be a self -serving comment. I know.

I'll just piggyback in that, because who else is in there? Yes, I'm in there too.

Okay. Keep going with your list. They interviewed me. Justin Peters. I couldn't resist.

Yeah. Anyway, so lots of great names on it. You can check out the

Kickstarter that they've put together. So they're raising money for the documentary. Cessationist on Kickstarter, that's really what you're looking for.

David Lovey and Les Lanphier, who are the two guys on it that are putting it together. They need to raise $100 ,000 in a 30 -day period to have the documentary fully funded.

Wow. Now, we're halfway there. Are we? Really? Yeah. That's awesome. Well, the date, the time.

Oh, the date. Yeah, we're halfway to the end of the 30 days. I was going to say. Yes. Okay, go ahead. Which finishes up on July 3rd, if I remember that right.

And about 65 % of the money's been raised already. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow.

So we're more than halfway there. Yeah. That's exciting. Even more exciting than the halfway. Exactly.

So if you want to help out with this, I know money is tight right now. Yeah, it's going to other things.

Yes. You've got to pay for gas. You've got groceries you've got to buy. We know because we need baby formula and that's been really hard to come by.

And where you can find it, it's expensive. Right. But thankfully, the Lord has blessed us with what we need.

Right. We've been provided for. Yes. So all that to say, we know that you've got other things you could be spending your money on.

But if you can support this documentary, something that will last for years and years with all the work that they've put in on this teaching that will come from this particular film, then check it out on Kickstarter.

You're looking for cessationistkickstarter .com, which is the fundraising platform that they're using and pledge what you can.

Yeah. There's some neat giveaways that they have on there. If you pledge this amount, you'll get a DVD and a T -shirt and all this other kind of thing.

You'll get your name in the credits. Nice. If you really want to throw in like a thousand bucks or something like that, you can get executive producer credit.

Wow. At the beginning of the documentary. That is actually very generous.

Right. I didn't give that much. I made a contribution, but it wasn't that.

That is a sit down and I really have to talk to my wife donation. And we haven't talked about that.

So it wasn't that much. But anyway, you can you can check that out. That's pretty cool. Donate to it as you are able and help to fund this documentary.

And I'm saying I think the target date is this time next year. So 2023, they'll be done with it.

We'll be seeing the cessationist Lord willing. Yes. Amen to that. Well, thank you to the men who are putting this together.

And thank you to all who support the making of this particular documentary. All right.

On with the emails. Sure. So on Friday, we take emails from the listeners and you can send these emails to when we understand the text at Gmail dot com.

This first one's from Jessica. As a matter of fact, the first few, I think, are oh, the first two are

Jessica's. They're they're two different Jessica's. OK. Noted. Yes. But these are two

Jessica emails. OK. So the first, Jessica says, I just listened to your

Friday episode and the question about what books you'll do next for your Old Testament studies on Thursday.

I think this was this past Q &A that I just did. You weren't on. Nope. Yep. Nope. Yep.

Yeah. Anyway. Just messaging to say, please, please, please continue right through into the prophets.

Awesome. And when I finish Song of Solomon, am I going to go back to Genesis or am I going to go on to the prophets and do

Isaiah? That was really the conundrum I was in. So I'm asking for your opinion. What would you what would you say that I go on to?

Should I go back and do the Pentateuch, which I haven't done on the podcast yet, the Torah, or should

I go on to just keep moving and go right into the major prophets? Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel.

Jessica says, please do Isaiah. She says, I'd also be interested in hearing it exposited from your more amillennial view.

I'm recently starting to take an amillennial view, but what's holding me up is some of the passages in the prophets.

I'm stuck in the dispensational thinking as that's how I was raised. And it's hard to have those presuppositions not influence the reading to understand another view.

So doing the prophets would be greatly appreciated here, but whatever you choose, it will be great.

Thank you for all your hard work and teaching. That's sweet. I appreciate that, Jessica. Thank you.

Now, the next Jessica. OK, I was listening to your program and you were discussing people trying to say

God, the Holy Spirit is female or sexually ambiguous.

OK, I think this was also last week. So what pronouns can we use when we talk about the

Holy Spirit? Can we define the Holy Spirit as a woman, which a lot of progressive pastors are attempting to do right now?

Right. Liberal theologians calling the Holy Spirit a woman. Well, I mean, there's liberals out there calling

God a woman. But, you know, the Holy Spirit seems to be the one that they say is is the most ambiguous.

So we can be flexible with that one. Jessica goes on to say, I studied Greek as well as Latin and taught

Latin and Greek before staying home with my kids. One thing that heretical teachers need to be told is that in language, there are two classifications for gender, natural gender and grammatical gender.

Grammatical gender is assigned to things like trees. Arbor aboris in Latin is feminine.

It does not apply to sex. Trees do not have sexual gender. Bridge pones or Pontus in Latin is masculine.

Bridges do not have sexual gender. Natural gender applies to people and animals.

Mater mother is feminine because she is a sexually feminine human. Vaca cow whence we derive from whence we derive vaccine in English is a is a female creature unlike Taurus bull, which would be a male, of course.

She goes on to say, when we consider God the father and God the Holy Spirit, the Bible definitely refers to them in masculine pronouns.

Numa is not a sexually defined creature. So what

I was reading last week with regard to the Holy Spirit is that word Numa in the New Testament is said to be a feminine word.

OK, the Greek word for spirit. So therefore we can refer to the Holy Spirit in a feminine way.

OK, since Numa is a feminine word anyway. But she says it's not a sexually defined creature.

Numa is assigned grammatical gender, not natural gender. It is not gender free.

It's neuter. Neutral is not a category of gender in Greek and neuter definitely is not a non -gender.

It is its own category and it is applied only grammatically, both in Greek and Latin. As a nerd,

I felt like my nerdry might be helpful. Blessings to you. That's awesome.

I sure appreciate it, Jessica. Thank you so much. You added more scholarship to that than I was able to give last week as somebody who understands

Greek and Latin. Yes, very cool. Now you've been doing Latin with the kids. A little bit.

OK, and did all that make sense to you then? Most of it, yeah. OK, great. Yeah, there was a little bit that went over my head.

But yeah, most of that did. Gotcha. All right. Next question. This one comes from Savannah. Did I ever give the email address out?

Yes. OK, I couldn't remember. But just in case you missed it. Yeah, send an email to when we understand the text at gmail .com

and we'll read it on the Friday edition of the Q &A. Hello, Gabe and Becky. I really enjoyed and learned from the second

Corinthians passages about giving. I was wondering if you could talk about if there are any ways a church might steward the congregation's giving in a dishonorable way, anywhere from funding a conference at church that is more of an entertaining show to spending $200 ,000 on an unnecessary paint job.

These are things I have thought about before and I'm wanting to inform my conscience about. Thank you so much.

All right. So let's go back to the giving passages that we read them in second Corinthians. You're giving me a funny look. What's your look?

A paint job? So what she's asking about is how do you encourage your church to spend money wisely, not paying like $200 ,000 on a paint job that you don't need to spend that much money on, nor does the church really need that paint job or spending money.

The other example she gave was a conference that really turns into more of an entertaining show.

So it's not really for the purpose of teaching for training people. It's just to be entertained. Why are we spending money on this?

Okay. Yeah, but she's I was just lost on a paint job that much.

Anyway, it's fun. So is she talking about like in a sermon or I mean,

I would assume that would be for the business meetings. No, this would probably be. Yeah, it would be like conversations you would have with people.

It would be in a in a committee meeting or in the church business meeting. Okay. How are you stewarding people toward using the church's money wisely?

Okay. Okay. Okay. So my first assumption was that she was talking about in a sermon and then

I was really going to have to sort out my own. She's going to be preaching a sermon on this. No, no, no.

So the first thing we need to do is tell Savannah, Hey, women can't be preachers. I mean, you can gather information for your husband who's a preacher, right?

Yeah. Thanks for helping me with my sermon research. Appreciate that.

So what I was going to do to start off here, let's go back to those passages that we were reading. We were in second Corinthians eight and nine about giving, and then we'll kind of go from there to talking about what some how can we handle the money in the church responsibly?

Sure. So in second Corinthians eight, nine, for, you know, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though being rich yet for your sake, he became poor so that you through his poverty might become rich.

And then in chapter nine, beginning in verse six. Now this, I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly.

And he who sows with blessing will also reap with blessing. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion for God loves a cheerful giver.

So through those passages where, where we were reading in that second Corinthians eight and nine, uh, we also talked about giving and giving to the church when we talk about giving, we're talking about money, not those old bikes that you don't really ride in your garage anymore.

So I'm going to give them the church and maybe they can sell them to somebody and then use the money for something. That's not what we're talking about.

If you can do that, great. But we're talking about actually taking a portion of your income and giving it to the church.

There's not a set amount in the Bible. So, you know, just straight out of, uh, the passages we were, we read here in second

Corinthians nine, there's nothing here that says give 10 % of your income to the church, but rather each one must do as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, right?

Not going, oh, right. I'll give it right. Or, oh yeah, I forgot. Yeah, exactly.

Here, take it all. And then, yeah, it's an afterthought instead of being the thing that deliberately in your mind, you know, we need to give to the church, right?

And you're not doing it under compulsion. Nobody's making you do it. That's what I was going for. Okay. Right. Like the church is not telling you,

Hey, you have to give this much or you're going to be under church discipline. That would be very legalistic. The new

New Testament does not implement the system of the tithe. So you are giving as you desire to give cheerfully for God loves a cheerful giver.

But now when it comes to that money that we have given to the church, so, so now we've talked that out, you have a, an opportunity to worship

God through your giving, do that cheerfully. Now you've given your money to the church.

How's the church supposed to spend it? That's what business meetings are for. Right. I know those are boring.

People don't like to talk about them. In fact, they'll even change the name of business meeting. We're not going to call it a business meeting.

Nobody wants to come to a business meeting. So let's call it a membership meeting or a members meeting, which is fine.

That's great. If you want to say all of the members are coming to this and we're going to talk about the business of the church. Sure. That's fine.

Whatever you got to name it to get people there, but it should be, uh, it should be a desire for you to want to attend those meetings because this is something the whole church is doing together.

Yeah. Even if you're in an elder led congregation where the elders are kind of overseeing all of that and taking care of that, you still have the business meeting in which these things are talked about in view of the congregation.

So everybody is aware of everything that's being done. And if there's something an elder is doing that he shouldn't be doing, that's the opportunity to be able to raise hands and ask questions.

Why are you doing it this way? Why did the elders choose to spend this much money and not this much? Why did we change this percentage from here?

Move that money over here. Why did we reduce this percentage? So on and so forth. Right. This is business that the whole church needs to be in together because we are, uh, as a body stewarding the things that God has given to us and stewarding them.

Well, you need to be good stewards of the building that you have. Right. What sorts of repairs need to be made so that the building will last longer and the church deciding on those things together and debt.

Exactly. Right. Paying off debt, paying off debt that really needs to be like a first order of business.

Get out of debt as quickly as you can so that you can use that money to go toward the ministry things that the church needs to be doing.

Right. Be careful not to get out of debt. And then like, as soon as you're out of debt, like, let's get some more.

Yeah. And so then you jump into the next big project. That's just going to plunge you back into debt again.

It's easy to do. Right. When I was at my previous church, I was grateful that we were able to get out of debt within the first two years that I was there, knocked off all the church's debt that had been left behind by some irresponsible decisions that were made by the previous pastor.

And then within a few short years after that, we started to have to think about a wall that needed to be replaced, an outside exterior wall on the church that needed to be fixed.

The roof needed to be fixed. And again. And again. And there was a roof on another building that needed to be fixed.

Yep. And all of those things we were actually able to do debt free because we didn't have any other debt.

Right. And the money that we were able to save up for those kinds of projects enabled us to be able to do that and do so in a way that we were using that money in honor of the

Lord, in a responsible way, taking care of those things that God has given to us. If you're going to own a building, it costs money to run it.

Yep. You got to pay bills and utilities. You got to pay for maintenance on the building. You got to pay for people to clean the building.

And if it's older, it probably leaks a lot. So you have higher utilities and stuff like that.

Right. Make sure to update what you need to update. That costs money too.

Yes. Right. It's always good to read some good financial planning books for yourself.

Like if you're thinking about how to personally budget in your own home and you pick up stuff by Ron Blue or How to Manage Your Money or Crown Financial Ministries or any of those ministries like that, have written those books to kind of help you.

Larry Burkett, pick up some old Larry Burkett books. There you go. They're still applicable, even though the numbers might need some adjustment.

You've had some inflation since then. Well, I think any book right now, unless it was written today and published today, it would be out of date.

It's dated now. Yeah. Because of the cost of everything. But those guys with good biblical principles are going to be telling you things like don't spend what you don't have.

Right. Don't take out a whole bunch of credit cards and then accumulate a bunch of debt. You need to spend within your means.

Right. Everything's going to be super practical advice. In fact, you're going to get through one of those books. You're going to go, well, this was simple. I should have known this.

Right. Exactly. Then apply it. Exactly. Yes. So now take those principles that were written for you for a personal budget and now apply that to your church.

Right. So as a church, we need to handle these things in a right way. But then with the church, you also have to consider the staff.

So there's also not just the basics of what you would take care of, but there's also the staff that needs paid, too.

Yeah, exactly. So. You have everything budgeted. You got line items, things like that. You're able to look through that.

Now, more to the point of Savannah's question. Yes. How do you prevent the church from going into like a lot of this frivolous spending?

$200 ,000 on a paint job, putting together this conference that just becomes entertainment.

Yeah. Again, this is the importance of business meetings so that you're able to talk these things out.

And I hope that you have a church where the congregation is able to express or ask questions about these things.

OK, I have a question. OK, now your question. So I know in previous churches, because I've been keeping the babies, so I haven't been to a business meeting here very many times.

Yes. But we got here and had a baby. Yes. So anyway, my question is, do they normally in church meetings, business meetings, have new business and old business?

And then, you know, like that kind of sequence, because you can't make a decision on new.

You have to have the information on the new business. And then the next meeting, you've already had to, you've already thought about it and talked it over with people that you needed to.

And then you made your decision. Yes. For the vote. So is is that normally how it goes or is every church different?

In a Baptist church, probably. OK. Yeah. You have new business and old business. It just depends on how organized you are.

OK. Well, I was just curious because that would be that would be the time to ask questions about it.

Yeah. And to go around and ask people, you know, or educate them on, do we really need this?

And let's look at other options or that kind of thing. And when something is presented to the congregation, which probably comes from the finance committee, usually something like that, if you're in a church that operates with committees, just kind of creating that scenario, whoever it is that's taking care of the finances, maybe you have a treasurer.

And so just the treasurer is the one that's presenting that. But they present new business. We want to allocate this money for this congregation votes on it or however that goes.

And then as that's being considered before the next business meeting, you have the opportunity between meetings to talk to the treasurer, to talk with the finance committee, to ask questions about that or to express disagreement with it.

I don't think this is a good idea. And here's why. Maybe you can help me understand why the church is doing this. Things of that nature.

Now, as Savannah had given this illustration of like a two hundred thousand dollar paint job. Now, immediately we would see something like that and we would go, oh, 200.

Yeah, that's too much. Yeah. Why are we paying that much on a paint job? But what kind of paint job are we talking about?

I mean, is there really no other way to get a paint job? But by that. Right. Because, I mean, sometimes it includes removing asbestos and things like that.

So maybe it does cost that much. Yeah. If there's if there's something that needs removed, something needs replaced, something that absolutely has to be professionally done.

You can get the whole church together and we'll paint the parking lot ourselves. Right. But is it going to look any good?

That's true. Get your OCD people. That's right. You got those lines over there with our

Frank's morning coffee hadn't kicked in yet. Look at that goodness. But on the other hand, the concert, how did she word that?

She worded it something about a conference that's more entertaining rather than educational concert.

Yeah. She said conference conference. OK. Well, that that would be research on who's speaking, you know, like who's who's presenting, who's singing, who's doing all that stuff.

Right. That that makes a big difference on their reputation. Yeah. But so you can you can go through and do.

I mean, everything is going to be researched, though, and presenting it. But what it what it was her question exactly.

I guess I'm kind of lost on how to answer. Anywhere from funding a conference at church that is more of an entertaining show to spending two hundred thousand dollars on an unnecessary paint job.

Those are the two examples she gave in that one sentence. Two examples. But what was her question? Like, was it how to how to talk to people?

Right. How do you what do you talk? What are some ways that you encourage the church to steward the congregation's money in an honorable way?

Talk to the people in charge first. And then if they're still convinced it's a good idea, then go.

I don't know. I'd get a group of people on, you know, to go together and talk with them about this is really concerning.

If you don't have a business meeting. I mean, if you don't, if you have a business meeting, then that is the group.

Right. The group is together and we're talking those kinds of things out. That's true. It just depends on how your polity is laid out for your church, how you handle those kinds of things.

Different on that. You certainly don't want to create a church where everybody's giving money and then somebody at the top is just spending it however they want.

You don't want that kind of a system. Right. And you don't want to divide a church either. You don't want to be like, oh,

I hate that decision, you know, about everything. Because then that's that's not keeping the peace either.

So it's it's just good to be educated about what the decisions are and then doing research about them.

And some of that is going to be on you. Right. Yeah. You're going to have to ask questions.

You're going to have to do a little bit of homework. But it's part of how all of us are doing the work of ministry together.

So think of in Ephesians chapter four, beginning in verse 11, that God gave the apostles and the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and the teachers to prepare the saints for the work of ministry.

So the shepherds and the teachers don't do everything. Right. They're preparing the congregation for the work of ministry.

Everybody serves in ministry. And if it's your gift, go serve on that ministry.

You have a certain spiritual gift that you are given. Yes. Yes, exactly. But we had talked a moment ago as we were talking about the cessation as kickstarter cessationist is about the apostolic gifts that those apostolic gifts that affirmed that what the apostles said came from Christ.

It was the word of God through these men that Christ had appointed. And they verified that they were of God by the miracles that they did.

Right. As we're talking through second Corinthians, we're going to get to this eventually and second Corinthians 12, 12, the signs of a true apostle were worked out among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles.

That's what we're talking about by the concept of cessationist. What's not being said there is that spiritual gifts have come to an end.

You do have spiritual gifts. We all have a gifting of the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

And we have the opportunity to within the body to exercise those gifts. Talked about that when we were in our first Corinthian study, because that's in chapters 12 through 14, but we also have this in chapter 12, beginning in verse five, we who are many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another, but having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy in agreement with the faith or service in his serving, or he who teaches in his teaching or he who exhorts in his exhortation, he who gives with generosity, he who leads with diligence, he who shows mercy with cheerfulness, let love be without hypocrisy by abhorring what is evil, clinging to what is good.

So we have these spiritual gifts that we're given. And in, in a first Corinthians 12, there's also the gift of administration.

There's the gift of helps. There's different spiritual gifts that we've been given. Administration and generosity.

Those are two good gifts right there for helping to manage finances and money. Oh yeah. And, uh, and, and good spending habits as a church.

Yeah. So be involved in those things. I don't know how much we were able to give you there, Savannah.

That's just be direct, but polite, but outspoken. Yeah. Um, and you know, if it's, yeah, handling all these things in love, not, not in quarrels and conflicts.

Right. Definitely. And, um, that just do your, do your research so you can present the facts because the facts help, um, the emotionally, cause these sound like emotional things because you want a good paint job, so you want to spend more.

You want, um, uh, feel good conference. So you're going to spend money on it.

You know what I mean? It's, it sounds like it's emotionally led more than, um, facts and, and things like that, and maybe you can appeal to their emotional side of wouldn't we feel so much better if we were able to cut that in half and send this ministry overseas, this amount of money or even, yeah.

Or even take up an offering that'll offset expenses, you know, something like that. Now, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the church putting together something for entertainment.

Sure. You know, it could be a worshipful concert or something like that. Like we're going to do a concert.

We want to do some nice lighting. We're going to have a good setup. We want to put out flyers to the community so that they know they're invited to, and they can, the gospel will be presented there in addition to hearing good music, whatever it might happen to be.

Christian's being entertained. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. But what's the purpose? How is this being done?

Is it, is it being done in a biblical way? I just took conference as being educational, not being a feel good thing.

Right. So I don't know. Maybe I'm reading that wrong. Yeah. If your conference means you're bringing in Beth Moore. No, you want to nix that.

Don't do that. It was just for general example, like bringing in a conference as an entertaining show or spending $200 ,000 on a paint job.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't have, I don't have enough information. I'm kind of widespread spreading my answers.

Widespreading. She had a, she had a big sweeping arm gesture when she did that.

All right. She's broadcasting. Yeah, there you go. It's a hopefully something will land and help be helpful.

I'm going to stop. All right. Let's go on to the next one here. This is from Spencer. And I'm probably going to have to set this up a little bit before reading his email.

So he's going to talk here about a speech that Rick Warren gave at the

Southern Baptist convention, annual meeting, which was held in Anaheim, California and Southern California this past week at the annual meeting last year in Nashville, it had just come out in the news that Saddleback church, which is the church that Rick Warren founded in California over 40 years ago, the church had just started ordaining women as pastors in that church.

This was just like a few weeks before the annual meeting in Nashville. Saddleback is the largest

Southern Baptist church. In fact, the three largest Southern Baptist churches all have women pastors,

Rick Warren's church fellowship church in the Dallas area, which is Ed Young and his wife,

Ed and Lisa Young, I think is her name. And then Elevation Church out in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is

Stephen Furtick and his wife, Holly, who is a pastor there at the church. So the three largest churches in the

Southern Baptist convention have women pastors, women pastors in quotation marks, because as scripture says, a woman cannot be a pastor.

So when that happened last year, just ahead of the annual meeting, a motion was made to do an investigation by the credentials committee of Saddleback church to decide whether or not they needed to be disfellowship because they were doing something that was contrary to our statement of faith.

The Baptist faith and message 2000, they're ordaining women as pastors, which the BFM 2000 says the office of pastor is limited to men.

The credentials committee came forward at Anaheim to give the results of that investigation that they were charged to do from the annual meeting last year.

And they basically determined that no action was going to be taken against Saddleback. They said this was a difference of opinion, that that some have a different idea as to what the office of pastor entails.

OK, and so we're not going to discipline or disfellowship Saddleback because Rick Warren was deciding to ordain women ministers.

Now, that was ahead of the annual meeting last year, ahead of this year's annual meeting, just a couple of weeks before the

Southern Baptist were gathering in Anaheim. News came out that Rick Warren was retiring and he had appointed the pastors who were going to replace him, a husband and a wife.

Ah. So she also is going to keep her title as pastor as they're going to fill in those roles in in Rick Warren's absence as his successor.

And they were the I can't remember their names off the top of my head, but they were the they were the pastors of Echo Church there in California, which was one of those that I've exposed in the past is having women pastors.

And it was a church that was funded by NAM, the North American Missions Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.

So all of that, all of that was going on in Anaheim, the credentials committee coming forward and saying they weren't going to disfellowship

Saddleback. Somebody called Rick Warren and I'm guessing it was

Ed Litton, OK, who's the president of the convention this year. Thankfully, he's not there anymore.

But anyway, I won't go into that whole deal. Ed Litton, of course, the plagiarizer, he was probably the one that contacted

Rick and said, do you want to have an opportunity to speak in defense of some of the things that the convention was saying about you on that first day, which was

Tuesday? So then on Wednesday, pretty sure this was Wednesday, Rick gets there and he gets on a mic, one of the one of the messenger mics.

OK. And he gives he gets this opportunity to just brag about himself for six minutes or more.

Oh, and nobody else has had that kind of time at a microphone. In fact, the message I was thinking, yeah, that's an awful lot of time.

The messengers are regularly getting cut off. Yeah. Including our own Tom and Jen Buck getting cut off at microphones.

We're interrupted. Yeah. Interrupted. Rick is not even wearing any credentials. He doesn't even have a badge on and he gets to stand at a mic and just talk for six minutes.

So we just see everybody knows who he is. He just bragged about himself the entire time.

So that's the lead up to this particular email. OK. Spencer is writing in response to this speech that was just given by Rick Warren earlier this week.

Hi, Pastor Gabe. Regarding the decision whether Saddleback Church in Anaheim, California can stay in the SBC, I listened to Rick Warren's response and found something troubling that I haven't heard mentioned in any mainstream evangelical or reformed media.

In this what Rick called his love letter to the SBC, he just went on and on about his accolades, his accomplishments, dozens of churches planted, tens of thousands of people baptized, tens of thousands of pastors trained, thousands of missionaries sent to spread the gospel.

Those are all impressive achievements, no doubt. But none of that is a defense to the charge of ordaining women pastors in direct disobedience to scripture.

When we stand before God on Judgment Day and hear the charges of sin against us, do we think that we can say to God, I should still be able to get into heaven because of all the good things that I have done in your name?

The answer should unequivocally be no. So when I heard Rick Warren's defense to the charge of ordaining women pastors, it was the equivalent of Matthew 7, 22.

On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

We all know Jesus' answer to this, and it didn't bode well for them. I believe the same to be the case here, and I wanted to know your thoughts in light of mine.

Thank you for your podcast and your sermons. They have been a tremendous blessing to me and my family. May God continue to glorify his name through his incredible work through you.

God bless. Well, babe, I think the best way to answer this question would be to listen to Rick Warren's speech.

No. So that everyone can hear exactly what he said at the annual meeting this week.

Are you ready? No. Here we go. The first the first voice you're going to hear right at the beginning of this is going to be the

SBC president, the plagiarist Ed Litton. We're going to take a moment to extend a courtesy to a pastor here at Southern California, Rick Warren, and we want to hear his heart for this convention.

So, Rick, would you come? Sorry, Rick, Rick is at microphone number three.

I recognize you to speak. Thank you. You know, first, everybody, welcome to Orange County, Southern Baptists of one hundred and forty nine

Southern Baptist churches here, 90 of them started by Saddleback Church. You know, it's customary for a guy who's about to be hung to let him say his dying words.

I have no intention of defending myself. I have taught my kids and grandkids for years.

I am most like Christ when I refuse to defend myself. Now, very unfortunately,

I've been listening to Rick Warren for longer than I have been a Southern Baptist. It's kind of inadvertent, but I've been hearing his stuff for a long time.

What Rick Warren says he's not going to do is exactly what he's about to do.

Uh huh. And the best example of this is his book,

The Purpose Driven Life. Oh, yeah. So the very first line in the book is it's not about you.

And then it's all about the whole book is about you. If you took that line out of the book, you would not get the impression from the rest of the book that it's not about you.

The whole thing is about you. So what Rick says he's not going to do, that's exactly what he's going to do.

He says this is not a defense of himself and his decision to ordain women pastors in his church.

But that's exactly what this is. And in fact, he's even going to lambast the people who have been arguing about this issue by calling it a second tier issue, just as Spencer had mentioned in his in his email there.

He's going to that's going to be the last thing he says at the end that why are why are we bickering over these second tier issues when we've got we got to keep the main thing, the main thing and just go after, you know, this stuff with the gospel, which

Rick Warren's not even teaching the gospel, right? Nor are you going to hear much about Christ in this response, even though he says right there,

I am most like Christ when I am not defending myself. This entire speech is defending himself.

That's he's kind of implicating himself by saying that anyway, this was oh, this this was just it was painful.

Shall we continue? Sure. The Bible says

Jesus spoke not a word unto them when Pilate accused him of all kinds of things. So I have no intention.

I have most of you on my mailing list anyway, and I can write you and tell you what I believe about the gift of pastoring as opposite from the office of pastoring.

But I'm not here to talk about that. Yes, he is there to talk about that. I was going to say, isn't that why he got the mic in the first place?

That's the whole reason he's there. So he's just taking advantage of it. Yeah, exactly. He would not even be there if it wasn't for the fact that his.

They should have just cut the mic right then. I'm not going to talk about that. Well, great. Good.

OK, thanks. Thanks for those 20 seconds there, Rick. Appreciate that. But notice he got his little jab in there, the gift of pastoring.

I'm not going to talk about the gift of pastoring. The gift of pastoring is given only to men.

Yeah, that's it. Now, there are women who have an ability to teach, but they're not given a gift of pastoring.

That office is limited only to men. First, Timothy to 11, a woman must learn in quietness in all submission.

But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

For it was Adam who was formed first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived. But the woman being deceived fell into trespass.

But she will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with self -restraint.

And then what you have in chapter three, verses one through seven are the qualifications for an elder, which applies only to men.

He must be the husband of one wife, must be able to teach, must be the husband of one wife, must manage his own household well among those qualifications that we have there.

And then in Titus chapter one, same sort of a thing. For this reason, I left you in Crete, Paul says to Titus, this is beginning in verse five, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you.

Namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife having faithful children who are not accused of dissipation or rebellious for the overseer must be beyond reproach as God's steward, not self -willed, not quick tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of dishonest gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, righteous, holy, self -controlled, holding fast the faithful word, which is in accordance with the teaching so that he will be able to both exhort in sound doctrine and to reprove those who contradict.

And when you go through the list of qualifications for an overseer in the church for a pastor,

Rick Warren is not qualified. Let's continue on. Lunchtime, I wrote you a love letter and I'd like for my possibly likely last convention to read it to you.

K and I could have not built Saddleback Church to its size and influence in any other denomination.

That speaks volumes. Can you imagine John MacArthur saying Patricia and I could not have built

Grace Community Church in any other denomination? No. Or R .C.

Sproul, who founded Ligonier Ministries. Can you even hear him saying

Vesta and I could not have done this? Yeah, not at all. And I mean, it just goes to show what state our

SBC has been in for that many years. Yeah. When this is, he's basically the king of the convention.

Yeah. Behold your king, SBC. Right. That's the six minutes without a badge.

Right now where he makes that comment there, since this is going to be my last SBC, he's not saying

I'm about to get disfellowshipped, so I'm going to go ahead and give this speech. Right. He's talking about the fact that he's retired.

Okay. Yeah. Saddleback's not going to get disfellowshipped. Yeah. They love him. Well, and it's just, um, astonishes me that he can write a love letter at lunchtime and present it that quickly without.

Oh, he could do all this off the top of his head. Okay. Cause it's all, I mean, that's what he's going to do. He's just going to run down his resume.

It's not a love letter to the SBC. It's like, listen to me and all of the stuff that I've done. I'm not even kidding.

It's his retirement speech. Here we go. I love

Southern Baptist. I am a fourth generation Southern Baptist pastor. My great -grandfather was led to Christ by Charles Spurgeon and sent to America as a church planter.

Saddleback was sponsored by the North American Mission Board. I served on the staff of the

California State Convention and the Texas State Convention as a teenager. Billy Graham picked me up when

I was 18 and for the next 52 years mentored me because I started at 16 years old, hired by the

California convention to preach youth revivals. And I had preached over 120, uh, harvest crusades before I was 20.

Billy took this long haired, skinny California and mentored me for the next 52 years.

Here's my love letter to you. Love letter to who? I'm confused now.

It's a love letter to himself. That's you know what my thought was there. I was listening to him when he was doing this.

I was listening to it live when they welcomed him into the microphone. I was watching the live stream online and, uh, and there was, uh, what popped into my head was first Timothy chapter one, verse three, as I exhorted you when going to Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may command certain persons, not to teach any different doctrine, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the stewardship of God that is by faith.

He's not furthering the stewardship of God here. This is, this is the equivalent to an endless genealogy he's going through.

I, uh, my great grandfather was saved by Charles Spurgeon and I was mentored by Billy Graham and he's name dropping here.

Yeah, definitely. And, and the fact that he's preaching at 16 is it's okay, but it's worrisome that, that soon, that quick.

And I mean, how can you be a 16 year old mentor to other 16 year olds?

Right. You know, that's, that's just not how mentoring is done. Well, his preaching is really, really bad now.

So I can't imagine what it was like when he was 16. Now I was preaching when I was 17, but I look back on those years and I was going, and I'm going,

I should not have been preaching. Yeah. That's, that's the kind of experience that I have.

And that doesn't mean the sermons that I was preaching back then were good. I should not have been preaching at 17.

Instead of preaching. He should have been just the mentoring part of things like being mentored.

Thank you. That's what I meant to say. But, um, and, and I don't. Now that's not to say.

That's not to say that somebody who's 16 or 17 can't preach a good sermon.

Correct. HB Charles has been preaching in his church since he was 17. And he, as far as I know, have been, has been a solid preacher from the very beginning.

Sure. But that, I mean, I'm sure he was mentored during that time too. Yeah. He was raised by his dad.

Yeah. Uh, and to be as solid a preacher as he was. And if I remember the story, right. He had to take over for his dad.

So at 17 and then went to seminary, finished his PhD from masters.

So, you know, you're talking about HB Charles is not only a tremendous preacher, but a very well -educated man.

Yes. Now, Rick Warren, when you listen to his sermons are not good. So if this is the best of what he's done, then they were terrible when he was 16.

Yeah. Anyway, that's what I'm going off of. Not that a 16 year old can't preach. Right. Some can.

Well, sure. I'm just saying it's not wise. Yeah, definitely not. Because I know my mind at 16 was not where I'm fit.

Oh yeah. You know, it's definitely different. Yes. And, but there are rare occasions.

It is not a common thing. Yeah. One of the qualifications for a pastor in chapter three is that he must not be a recent convert in first Timothy three.

He can't be a recent convert or he might get big headed. Right. And that applies to with a person who is young.

Don't put them in that position too young. Right. Timothy was young. We know he was young by what

Paul said later on in first Timothy. So it's not that young people can't do it. Right. But you, you've got to be way more discerning with who's going to be standing in those positions.

Definitely. Anyway, all this is kind of a side note, but going on with, uh, with Rick's love letter, let's do it because I really am grateful if this is my last convention.

Because of Southern Baptist polity, I was allowed to serve one church for life.

That's not possible in those denominations. And get grew and grew it to become the largest church in this convention.

Because Southern Baptist gave me a passion for evangelism and mission. We baptized 56 ,631 new believers.

And as a Southern Baptist church sent 26 ,869 members overseas to 197 nations.

Because Southern Baptist taught me the value of a membership covenant. 78 ,157 members of our church signed our membership covenant after taking a four hour membership class.

Because Southern Baptist taught me to emphasize the priority of Bible study. We now have 9 ,173 home

Bible studies in homes in 162 Southern California cities. Because Southern Baptist taught me the value of church planting, as I already mentioned, we planted 90 in Orange County alone and literally thousands around the world, because Southern Baptist taught me to honor and love the local church.

I've had the privilege for 43 years of training 1 .1 million pastors that sorry, friends, that's more than all the seminaries put together.

There's no way, no way that number's accurate. In 43 years, he's trained 1 .1

million pastors, which is more than all the seminaries combined.

If you just do simple math on that, 43 years, 1 .1

million pastors, that means he was training more than 70 pastors per day for 43 years.

That's absurd. There's no way that number's right. Unless, unless he's doing the

Baptist thing and inflating numbers, you know, Baptists know how to inflate their numbers. Right. Like every pastor he ever encountered or shook hands with, or when he preached to an audience and he found out there were like 50 pastors in the audience.

Oh, that could be. I mean, any time that he talked to a pastor, he just chalked that up to that number. I don't, that would be the only way that he could ever get to that number.

70 pastors a day for 43 years is what he would have had to have been training to get to 1 .1

million. Is he talking about how many hits that his pastors .com website has gotten?

That could be, I don't know. Yeah, there's just no way, there's no way that's true. And plus you consider that he mentioned we've baptized over 50 ,000 people.

So you've trained 1 .1 million pastors, but only baptized a little over 50 ,000 people.

That's, that's kind of an odd, way more pastors than you have. Had like real conversions.

Yeah, it's strange. Now, what kind of gospel is Rick Warren preaching?

I mean, you might be listening to us talk about this and going, come on, Gabe, you're being a little bit harsh, right? Read the purpose driven life.

If you dare and you will see the kind of gospel that I'm talking about and the way that he'll manipulate scripture to make it fit the point that he's making isogetical is the way that he's always taught.

He doesn't know any other way to preach. He's not an expository preacher. He will have an idea and he finds the scripture that fits that idea and rips it out of context and applies it in a way that it is not meant to apply.

Now, what kind of gospel does he, does he preach? Well, if you go to, uh, the purpose driven life, um,

I have in my notes, pages 65 to 66, I picked up another copy of the purpose driven life and opened to that page and it was not on page 65.

Yeah. It depends on what edition you're getting. Yeah, but this is in my version. It's on page 65 and 66.

So Warren says to quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity.

Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you go ahead. If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations.

Welcome to the family of God. Oh, wow. That's Rick Warren's idea of preaching the gospel.

All you got to do is say a prayer. And take a four hour class. Well, that's, that was the membership class.

Oh yeah. You got to do more to become a member of Saddleback church than to get into the kingdom of God.

All you got to do is just say this little prayer. And he says, if you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations.

Welcome to the family of God. You don't, in that prayer, you have no idea who Jesus is. You have no idea about your sin.

No. You don't know what repentance is, what that means. You don't know what

Christ has done for you. Yeah, I don't. You don't know anything about the wrath of God that is burning against you because of your rebellion against God, which is the exact reason you need a savior.

And that's why you come to Christ for salvation is because without Christ, I'm going to hell.

I've had exposure to him from previous churches and, um, who were promoting him.

And I don't ever remember hearing the true full entirety gospel.

No, I've never heard him ever. I've never heard him say it. So, I mean, and these are people who, who really pushed his books and pushed his way of thinking and talking and polity and whatnot, um, on the congregation and stuff like that, which

I mean, it is what it is, but at the same time, it's, um, it's, it wasn't full there.

I, I kept leaving there hungry for more. Like, what, what does this mean? You know, and confused, completely confused.

Cause whenever we, we started hanging out a lot, you and I, um, I was like, well, what, what's that mean?

I'm totally, I didn't realize how lost I was. You were a sponge. I was.

It was awesome. Yeah. You're just a baby Christian. I felt like it.

I met her just, I mean, it was just a few weeks after you were baptized, wasn't it, when we met, I remember the picture of you getting your, like, right after you've been baptized,

I still remember your facial expression in that picture here, dad was so proud. And you're just like, I'm in front of people, you know, that was the expression on your face.

Yep. This is a very small gathering too. It wasn't like it was the entire church or anything. Right.

Yeah. It was funny anyway. Okay. Going on with his, with his little thing here. I owe you all so much.

So I sincerely say, thank you, Southern Baptist for shaping my life.

And in closing, I want to ask you to consider a couple of questions. You're never going to find another

Baptist who agrees with you completely on everything. There are

Baptist brothers here today who don't believe Jesus died for the whole world. But we imagine somehow get along with them.

That was a nice little jab. He took it. The reformed there. Yeah. You know, if you were to ask him what, what is reformed soteriology,

I don't think he could tell you if his, if his idea of reformed soteriology is that we think that Jesus didn't die for the whole world, then he doesn't get it.

So as Western culture grows more dark, more evil, more secular, we have to decide, are we going to treat each other as allies or adversaries?

Second, since this is the year 2022, that means we are 2022 years from the birth of Christ.

Now we know Christ started his ministry at 30 years of age. Luke tells us that, had a three and a half year ministry.

Christ died in AD 33. He was resurrected in AD 33.

He gave the great commission in AD 33. He sent the Holy Spirit and started the church in AD 33.

That means 2033, just 11 years from today, is the 2000th anniversary of the great commission.

I hope one of you, because I won't be here next year, will make a resolution that Baptists take the next 10 years to finish the task of the great commission in our generation before the 2000th anniversary of the church.

Are we going to keep bickering over secondary issues? Are we going to keep the main thing, the main thing?

We need to finish the task and that will make God smile. Thank you everybody.

I love you. Applause, applause, applause. Sounds like he was really looking for some allies and not adversaries in that speech.

He was trying to change minds to believe that ordaining women pastors is okay. Yeah. And that was the very, that was the closing line there.

Are we going to fight over these secondary issues or are we going to keep the main thing, the main thing? One of the things about churches that ordain women as pastors, this is not a secondary issue.

It is a clear indicator that church does not follow clear biblical teaching because the

Bible is unquestionably clear on this, that only men can hold the office of pastor.

It is so clear that the Southern Baptist convention chose to write exactly that in their own statement of faith, that only men can hold the office and function as pastor.

Women can be gifted in teaching, but they're not going to receive that office. So yeah, this was his,

I'm not defending myself, but I'm going to lash out at you people who are, are trying to make this an issue.

Yeah, right. Exactly. I'm the successful. Yeah. Now his whole thing about not, not to put too fine a point on it, but his whole thing about, uh,

Jesus was crucified, rose from the dead, uh, gave the Holy Spirit, all of that in 33

AD. It probably wasn't, it was probably 30 AD. Yeah. Everybody has differing.

Yeah. I can argue, I can make an argument for it being 30 AD. I believe you can.

Yeah. So yeah. But we don't decide when the great commission is fulfilled. Yeah.

That's what I was thinking too. Like it's good to set goals, but that's, you're, you're setting a goal for God.

Jesus said in Acts one, it is not for, it's not for you to know the times and the dates that the father has set by his own authority, but you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth.

The great commission is we have it in Matthew 28 verses 18 to 20, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me now, therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the

Holy spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age, teaching all that I have commanded you, including that the office of pastor is limited only to men.

That is a teaching of Christ. That is part of what is to be taught at the church.

And Saddleback church left the clear teaching of God a long time ago. Yeah. Even, even before the beginning.

Yeah. Even before we got to this, this ordaining women thing, this is pure pragmatism.

I mean, once you're off just a little bit on one thing and you're trying to sweep it under the rug, like, eh, it's not a big deal.

It just continues. I mean, like, you know, you start at one point and it becomes completely off where you're supposed to be.

So Spencer's concern with his email, basically the gist of what he was getting to in the, in the question that he asked was what

Jesus says in Matthew chapter seven, beginning of verse 21. He says, not everyone who says to me,

Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father, who is in heaven, many will say to me on that day,

Lord, Lord, in your name, did we not prophesy and in your name, did we not cast out demons and in your name do many mighty miracles.

And then I will declare to them. I never knew you depart from me.

You who practice lawlessness. Scariest words ever. Yes.

And that that's the concern that we have for somebody like Rick, where he just bloviates about himself and goes on and on and on about his accomplishments.

Will he be a person who stands before God on that day only to hear him say, depart from me.

I never knew you. Now I'm not issuing that kind of judgment on Rick. That's not what I'm saying. Right. It's just, it's just that these words should make us tremble.

It's very concerning of, of his speech there. I mean, you've listened to his sermons.

I haven't, but if that's how he is all the time. Hey, we be careful.

May we stand in fear. Now I wanted to, when I played this, my intention was to compare

Rick's boasting about himself with the way that Paul boasted about himself, because that's exactly where we are in our study of second

Corinthians right now on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, we're out of time. We're over an hour now on the program.

So I can just use this as a teaser. This is where we're going next in our study of second

Corinthians. What's wrong with Rick's boasting versus the way that Paul boasted about himself.

And I'll go ahead and spoil the ending. It's in chapter 12, where he says, I will boast all the more in my weaknesses for where I am weak.

There he is strong. Paul begins that section by saying, let he who boasts boast in the

Lord. That's at the end of chapter 10. Then he's going to boast in himself for the sake of the

Corinthians who have been led astray by false teachers. He's, he's trying to win their hearts back to the true gospel that was delivered by the apostles.

But then he's going to finish that up by saying it's where I'm weak. I boast in my weaknesses.

That's where he is strong. So we'll talk more about that in the coming week. I just want to say real quick, and it might not be real quick, but I'm going to try, um, just for the fact that he was up at the podium that long, given that time to say what he said speaks.

I mean, how many people did he have to go through to get this approval and how many people applauded all of these things?

Now it's polite to applaud. Don't get me wrong. But at the same time, that was a lot of people there who will be like, oh,

I'm not doing enough. I'm not, you know, and then they get that bug and they start doing it too.

So if they're not already sinning in this way, they're going to start or feel guilty about not doing it this way because they don't have those numbers or whatever to brag about.

And, and so instead of turning to the Bible and preaching the Bible, how many, how

I just, I cringe. I, I'm yes, it was very cringy, but I'm almost to tears about how many people and how many churches, because these were people from churches, like in the

SBC, there's a lot of people there. They're going to be thinking this is the way to do it. Yes.

Or have thought that, right. Because they're in favor of him doing this. Yes. This is fine for him to do this.

Yeah. There was a, there was a Twitter account, blonde orthodoxy. I can't remember her name, but she made the comment.

Uh, Rick Warren is one of the most humble people I know. And I was just, is this a joke? I really wanted to,

I really wanted to ask. Cause like, I know the man is generous. He's a philanthropist. He gives millions and millions and millions of dollars away, but people, but then he brags about it.

Yeah. But then he boasts about it. Secularists do this. People who are atheists, people who don't know God, they know how to give money to charitable causes.

Charity is not the measure of whether a person knows the truth is really in the love of Christ and therefore sharing the gospel.

Just make sure that you're, you're checking yourself and lining yourself up with following Christ.

Well, yeah. And that's Paul too. In second Corinthians 13, exactly. Telling the Corinthians, examine yourselves to see that you are in the faith.

So let's not look at Rick and say, thank God I'm not like him. Right. Yeah. And let's check ourselves to make sure what we're boasting in is not ourselves, but we are boasting in the

Lord. Doing the same thing or something that's, it's different, but it's the same way, you know, cause vain vanity is vanity.

Yeah. It comes out in different ways. First Corinthians one 30. It is his doing that you are in Christ Jesus.

So let he who boasts boast in the Lord. Amen. Let's finish there with prayer.

Yes. Heavenly father, we thank you for the kindness that you show to us. We, who were full of ourselves, who are going our own way, following the passions of our flesh, the desires of the body and the mind.

And we're by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But you have been merciful and gracious to us.

You did not leave us dead in the sins and transgressions in which we once walked, but you have made us alive together with Christ.

So may our desire be for Christ, for your kingdom and to share the gospel with others, that they too may turn from their sin to the

Lord Jesus Christ and live, keep us walking faithfully in these things growing in holiness day by day.

As we read in Jude 24 and 25 to him, who is able to keep you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of his glory, blameless with great joy, to the only

God, our savior through Jesus Christ, our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority before all time and now and forever.