Doreen Virtue: New Age & the Occult

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Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

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Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

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Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. Is he hung up on me?

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Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

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When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations.

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There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead.

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For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations, the

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Lord your God is driving them out before you. You should be blameless before the Lord your God for these nations which you are about to dispossess.

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Listen to fortune tellers and diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.

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What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Gospel Heard Around the World. This is Apology Radio. I want to encourage everybody to take the link right now that's above you here as you're watching this live across them internets and share it across your social media platforms.

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Because that's how you get the word out. That's how you guys help us to communicate the gospel and the biblical worldview in the public square.

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I want to just give you a quick reminder that a hundred years ago, 150 years ago, to have a conversation like this, you would probably have to travel a long distance to make it happen.

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A lot of money would go into making it happen. And you would only have the audience that was in front of you at that very moment, maybe in that small room and maybe with no air conditioning.

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That's what it would look like. And then whatever took place from that moment had to take some time to get legs on it.

02:51

That message had to go from those minds on those feet out into that world.

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And it had to go those distances to communicate the message to the next town, to the next person, to the next group, to the next community.

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Right now, I want to just remind you how insane this is. Right now, there's probably about a four -second delay, maybe a five -second delay, something like that, of my voice here in Phoenix, Arizona to Australia.

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And that's stupid, amazing, and crazy.

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That's amazing. That's amazing. Oh, inside joke, Jessilee Peterson, inside joke.

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All right, so I want to just tell you how cool it is that now the public square is in your pocket.

03:35

You get to engage with the gospel and the biblical worldview in the public square. You get to do it while sitting, eating mudslide ice cream on your sofa while you're in the living room.

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You get to talk to people right now in Australia and China and Japan and Russia and all over the world.

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And it's right here in your pocket. And right now, my voice is traveling around the planet right now for free.

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For freezies. For free, basically. I mean, obviously, you pay for your data. All right there, Bernie Sanders. Free, free phones, health care.

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Do you see how many times I said in the Democratic debate they said free? Do you see that video going around? It was like the

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Democratic National Debate stuff. And they were like, how many times was the word free and we'll give you, like, put out?

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It was just, free this and free that and free, free, free. Did you see the Stossel one I sent you?

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Yes, that was the one. I think it was the one. Where he's adding up all the money that they're saying they're giving away for free. That was the one.

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It was like free, free, free. It was like hundreds of billions of dollars. A lot of money, yeah. Where are you going to get that? Yeah. Speaking of how stupid that is and how insane socialism is and Marxism and all the rest, this is an amazing gift from God.

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God's revelation that he has preserved for us through time. He's spoken in history. And I just read to you guys a passage from Deuteronomy chapter 18.

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And remember, it reminds you of this beautiful, beautiful thing. And that's Deuteronomy chapter 4. God tells his people when he is giving them his law, he says that this law that I'm giving to you is going to be your wisdom in the sight of the peoples.

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Watch. Yes, there are blessings and cursings to God's law. Blessings for obedience, curses for disobedience.

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We know that there was a special privilege and place that Israel had with God. It was always by grace, through faith.

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It was always a gift of God's grace. But they also have like a national covenant with God where if they sinned, they would be cursed.

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So there's a curse to God's law for sure. Disobedience means curse. However, not all of God's law is simply curse.

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It's also gift and blessing. God says in his law, he says that his law is to be their wisdom in the sight of the peoples.

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And it specifically says that the world was supposed to look in on God's law and say,

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Wow, like what kind of God is this? And a people that has a

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God so near to them as this. And a nation that has laws so righteous, so just as this.

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Now, I'm going to say if we get away from that law, we get away from justice. And you might say, well, like what is justice really?

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Well, you got to look to the one who is just, who only does what is just, who never changes.

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And that law, he revealed. He said, this is how you're to live. Here's how I made the world.

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You live in it this way. And I read to you guys a section of Deuteronomy 18 where it talks about sorcerers, necromancers, those who deal in omens.

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And you hear me saying like, hmm, who's doing that today? Maybe certain groups, small, weird groups of people.

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No, baby, it is pervasive. And I'll bet you, if you're part of the typical evangelical church model of today, it's probably hanging around in your church context somewhere, in some kind of context.

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Maybe not overt, maybe not on purpose, but it's there. We've got a lot of New Age occultic beliefs and practices, actually, that are really influencing the church.

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So we have a perfect show for you today you need to share. I am Jeff the Comb of the Ninja. That is

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Luke the Bear right there. What up? I feel weird over here. Why? Oh, because you're on the wrong side. Yeah, it's weird. Yes, he's not usually on this side of the room.

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It's throwing all of our audience off, too. And the symbol people are already back, so...

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Yeah, are they already? Yeah, this is the ancient symbol of the Trinity called the tricetra.

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You need to get to know the Athanasian creed and all the rest to get what this is all about. Okay, Isaac, just...

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Oh, yeah, by the way, just as you're doing this live, we love to do it live. We love to have you guys in here live with us, but just know that ban button is permanent and it's so easy.

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I mean, it's so easy. It's just very, very easy. So behave. Hey, so speaking of wrong side, when you are out, like when we're on a trip doing ministry and our families are with us, does your wife...

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Do you guys require the same side of the bed as home? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah? What's with the weird people that don't do that?

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There's people that don't do that? Yeah, there's people that like, you know, if they're going out of hotel, like it just doesn't matter which side because they're not in their home bed.

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But I'm like, I have to be on the same side. I will literally be up all night long. Yeah. And not because I'm uncomfortable because this doesn't feel right.

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It doesn't feel right. Yeah. Yeah. My wife is a southpaw and I'm right -handed.

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She's a southpaw. So even when we eat, we have to eat the same way because otherwise we bump elbows the whole time.

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Yeah. And so... Yeah. Well, that's just the way it goes. I thought I would add that in there. I didn't know there were weirdos like that.

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No, that's right. There are weirdos. There are weirdos. Yep. And hey, so we have two very special guests.

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You can see a long introduction today because we wanted to build the energy and get you guys sharing the episode because this is a very important episode.

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You notice that it says New Age and the Occult. We thought we'd give a real simple title there that would also make it through Facebook and YouTube's algorithms.

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So that's really why we did that. We have two very, very special guests we are very honored to have with us today.

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And I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. We are going to talk about some very, very important things that we don't often get to talk about in the kind of detail we are today.

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I'm going to tell you ahead of time that this is not the only place we're going to have them on Apollo Geo Studios content.

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We have our team in the back right now on standby waiting to do some cultish episodes with these two lovely ladies.

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And we are super excited about it because you guys are going to get a lot out of that. We're going to talk about even

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Bethel Church, the movement Bethel, and the New Age and the Occult sort of together.

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So be staying tuned for that. Cultish. Make sure you like the cultish stuff on all the pages.

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I'm going to go ahead and start to make introductions now. This is Doreen Virtue and Melissa Doherty. And the bio

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I have is for Doreen. No. Yes. Wait, I have you both. Don't I? Do I have you both?

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Yes. Good. Okay. All right. So Doreen Virtue was formerly a top selling

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New Age author and teacher. She was raised in New Thought churches and she had never heard the gospel nor read the whole

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Bible. She had paranormal experiences throughout her life that she thought were from God and angels.

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She also thought that she was following Jesus, but it turned out to be the false Jesus. Then Jesus began calling her and she started to read the gospels and go to church.

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On January 7, 2017, Doreen had a clear vision of Jesus at church that convicted her to leave the

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New Age completely. She got baptized for the first time and began reading and studying the entire Bible. Today she helps others to realize that the

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New Age is spiritually dangerous and unbiblical and that we must focus on the gospel of Jesus the

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Messiah and Son of God. She lost almost everything in the material world with her conversion, including her

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New Age family members who have shunned her. And yet she gained everything through her salvation by the grace of God and her faith in Jesus.

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Doreen holds a B .A. and M .A. degrees in counseling psychology and she is currently taking seminary classes in biblical theology.

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Way to go. Today she helps others to realize that the New Age is dangerous heresy. Her focus is on encouraging everyone to read and study the entire

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Bible and to give their lives to Jesus as our Lord and Savior. All right. Amen.

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Well, welcome ladies. Thank you for having us. We really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you guys for coming.

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So tell everyone where you traveled from. Yeah. That would be the good thing. I live just outside of Seattle. Okay. I traveled from New Mexico.

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Not too far. And so for you, definitely stepping into the major heat and you're from Hawaii.

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Originally, yeah. Well, from California and then I lived in Hawaii for 11 years. Okay. She even says it right. Yeah. Hawaii.

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Yeah. You got the little E at the end. Hawaii. Hawaii. My career crashed after my conversion.

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Yes. So I could no longer afford it. And my parents and mother -in -law live with my husband and I. So we have a lot of expenses.

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So we moved to tax -free Washington State. Okay. Seriously, that's why.

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But we love it there. And actually, once we made the decision to move, I knew that we would find more biblical church options there than we were finding in Hawaii.

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Okay. We're going to talk a bit about that later as well. So you came all the way from New Mexico. And so let's do this at least quickly by way of introduction.

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Tell us a quick overview of who you are, where you've come from, and why you're here today.

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So I am an ex -New Major as well, and I got saved when I was 16 but just had really bad theology.

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I never knew my Bible. I didn't have anybody to ask those questions to and kind of fell into the upbringing of my family, which would have been

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New Thought teachings, which is I call it the half -sister of New Age. It's the same but not in so many ways.

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But then years go by, and I'm knee -deep in it, and two

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Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my door. And long story short, it was through researching the

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Jehovah's Witness religion that it got me out of the New Thought. Wow. That's awesome. It challenged everything that I thought

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I knew, and it kind of forced me to look critically at what I believed. And it pulled the rug out from under me.

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My mom is still in it. We don't have very constructive conversations about this. My sister, same thing.

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My family is a little more divided on this topic. So I was lonely.

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There was no Stephen Bancars. There was no Dorian Virtue. I didn't have anybody that related to me. I made a Facebook group, invited people to it, and then one day

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Dorian Virtue joins my group. I was lonely too. I'd lost most of my New Age friends.

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I had no idea who she was, but that's how we became friends. It was through a Facebook group, and this was years ago.

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Praise God. I can't remember when. That's awesome. And then one day, right after I do daily

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Bible study, of course, and I pray, and I really got this sense that the Holy Spirit wanted us to partner on my

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YouTube channel. And so I asked her, and she said, sure. So for the last almost two years now.

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Actually, it's a year. One year in July, but for two years we've been close friends. We've actually been doing active ministry together for a year.

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One of the reasons we wanted to do that is because when you are a New Ager, it's very myopic who you follow.

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Because I've been touring with the famous New Age teachers for over 20 years, and that's who everyone follows.

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There's like 12 of us, maybe 20. And so I wanted to introduce the people who are following me in the

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New Age to Christian leaders. And so we've brought on theologians and apologists.

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Which is kind of our field because I'm going to college for apologetics, and she's going for theology.

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Biblical theology. Very good. So we teamed up in that. Yeah, and so it's been great because the audience would have no exposure to these folks.

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YouTube's very specific who they refer to. It's more the same. We're the same. So now we see people following Paul Washer and Cultish and Apologia.

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Nice. And Justin Peters. Our man

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Justin. Good. And Lindsay Davis, of course. Oh, yeah. Good. Excellent.

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So we've just been doing our best to help the New Agers because coming from a background in psychology plus New Age, I feel like I have insight why people go in the

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New Age and why they stay there. And my experience is that a lot of people in the New Age are trauma survivors.

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They've been abused as children. They have issues of almost PTSD or at least secondary.

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And so they're looking for a place that's comforting. Many people that I used to have in my audience left the church because they didn't feel comfort there and they felt guilty.

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And so they would come in the New Age where the theology there is everything goes. There is no evil.

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There's no devil. There's no sin. There's no demons. Everything is allowed. You can just be yourself and you can dress up with glitter and have fun and just express yourself.

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And so that's what they felt like was a womb for them. But the trouble is you and I both have a recovery background.

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So you know how alcoholism is a progressive disease. So is deception. And so people would come in through the guise of my angel cards, which seems so fluffy and sweet.

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And then as I watch them, you could see them going through wanting more adrenaline, more experiences and finally getting into pretty dark places in spirituality from that gateway.

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That's right. Yeah. It starts off very, very beautiful, a lot of light and then it starts to progressively get darker and scary.

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Right. Very scary. So with that, you mentioned, I mean you used to travel around the world with some of the top

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New Age talking heads and popular icons. Yep. And so give us a picture.

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What did that look like? So you're talking about coming out of the New Age from the top level of the

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New Age. I was the top selling author of Hay House, which is the top selling New Age publishing company.

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Okay. So who we're talking to, who God has saved is somebody that was not dabbling in the

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New Age. No, I was all in, but I thought I was a Christian because I was raised in Christian science.

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And my mother told us we were Christians. We had a King James Bible in our house, Christian science, which

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I know you guys know the background on it. They, they have lessons every week where they cherry pick. It's very eisegesis oriented.

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And so they'll find a verse that fits their theology. And then you read that for the day out of context, no idea what it is.

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So I thought I had read the whole Bible because I had read bits from Genesis to Revelation, but I didn't see the whole biblical theology picture at all.

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So I, I would mix, um, much like I see a lot of the church is doing today.

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I would mix a New Age theology with a bit of scripture. I used Christian terms before I would start my workshops.

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I'd sit on stage and I would pray God, Holy Spirit, Jesus. And then I would add in Archangel Michael because that was who

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I thought was someone to pray to and repented for that. Um, but so I think people were confused.

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I was confused. A lot of my audience members would come to my book signings with crosses on their necks saying that they were

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Christians too. Wow. And, and so it was beyond watered down Christianity. It was heresy mixed with some

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Christian veneer. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So you sold books? Yeah, I had 70 books.

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70 books. A lot. In 38 languages. Wow. Two are on the table right now.

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that seems, and one, one is, the angel therapy handbook. Can I take a look at that?

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There's a few that she wrote. Buckle your seatbelts. Yeah. I marked some pages in there. So the angel therapy handbook.

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Yep. Um, give us a snapshot of what in the world is that about?

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You wrote a book on the angel therapy handbook. Yes. That was a manual given to my students in classes where, um, we were learning about giving what seemed like psychic readings, but we called them more pure because we weren't talking to just any old spirit.

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We were talking to guardian angels and archangels and I really believed it. Um, I had these experiences when

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I would give the readings, I would get information that I could not have known and sometimes future information that would be verified.

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So it wasn't a sleight of hand. It wasn't mind reading or body language reading. There were unclean spirits

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I was talking with who were feeding me information. So this is really important. We talked about this a bit before the show started.

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There are people like Darren Brown and, um, James Randy. Am I saying that right?

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Yes. Uh, that will, in a very entertaining way, I was actually watching Darren Brown just the other day where he basically debunks faith healers and psychic mediums and people that were engaged in this kind of stuff.

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He shows that there's a lot, there's charlatans, there's trickery going on, there's, they're scamming, they're knowingly scamming people.

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And there's even stuff that actually now is masquerading as a charismatic

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Christianity. That's nothing more than occultic and new age practices actually put into the church.

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And they're saying, no, that's just charismatic. And it's like, well, that's not, it's a different kind of spirit, um, for sure.

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But, um, so it's at points in, in this kind of field, people will say,

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I think Doreen, it's all charlatan. It's all scam.

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It's all, you knew you were deceiving people and you were just making a great paycheck from it.

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But what you were saying, and this is what I want people to hear is that, yes, there are charlatans. Yes, there are scam artists, but there are unclean spirits.

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There are demonic elements and opposition involved in this. You were talking to spirits.

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Oh yeah. Um, the, I thought I was working for God. I would often call myself

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God's secretary when I would channel a book. This is a channel book by the way. Yeah. And so I would say, can you just real fast?

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I'm sorry. I don't want you keep going. I just want to channel the book. Okay. So, so I would kind of lose my, my mode of consciousness and just listen for a voice and a feeling.

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And I would type whatever I got. Wow. And there was no discernment because in my belief there was nothing bad.

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I hadn't read second Corinthians 11, 14. It says that devil, the devil can masquerade as an angel.

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I did not. I mean, I'd seen it, but it didn't fit what I was raised with, that there is no devil except for, um, mortal mind, what

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Christian science calls negative thinking. That was the only sin is if you're negative and then you might bring it on yourself.

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So I wouldn't allow myself to think about any of this cause I could bring on something negative. So when I was on stage and I was giving keynote speeches around the world with hundreds of people in the audience, sometimes thousands, and I'd be touring with some of the very famous, you know, teachers.

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Do you mind just giving a name or two? So Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Wayne Dyer, Louise Hay. I toured with them all.

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Um, James, James Redfield, James Von Prague, um, John Edward, you know, all the famous psychics.

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All the big guys. All the big guys. And ladies. Yeah. So we were like a traveling circus family and we would be in different cities around the world paid for by the publisher.

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Um, they would, you know, give us kind of a rockstar treatment and we would go on stage and my talk would be repetitive.

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I'd give basically the same kind of talk, but the readings were on the fly and I could not know what

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I was going to say to the person. It was. What? Completely authentic. Okay. So I, and I, and I believe that.

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So give me, give me an example of an experience of people, believers who are watching this can understand why it's so important for us to actually engage this issue and to start viewing this through the lens of not conspiracy, but true biblical spirituality, that there is not just flesh and blood here.

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Conspiracy, charlatan, uh, stuff. It's actual spiritual demonic elements behind this.

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So we're, we're at a conference. You're up, you're giving your talk. Now you're doing a live reading. What would that be like?

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There'd be a room full of people. I mean, we're talking about a convention center hall, so maybe 500 to 3000 people.

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Right. And so I can't see individuals, but I would be pulled. I would, my body be pulled in a certain direction. I'd hear it, a name.

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And I would say, okay, I'm being pulled over here and this is just a hypothetical. It'd be, it'd be real in the moment.

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Okay. I'm hearing the name, Susan, Susan. And I get that maybe your left arm is hurting and you really are being drawn to write a book, but you're afraid of what people might think because you want to write about your family.

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And, and it would be in the moment and the, and then we'd find the Susan over here and she'd stand up and then it'd be very authentic because she'd be crying because it'd be so spot on, but I would go more.

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I'd get the names of her dead relatives. One time I was giving readings in Athens, Greece, and I got

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Greek names of dead relatives. And that was before I learned how I'm just learning Greek now.

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But so there was things that I could not have known. You weren't trained in. No. Yeah.

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No, I actually took one. I took one, maybe two days of psychic development classes.

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Okay. The rest came to me in meditation where I was told what to do. So I want to explore that, explore that.

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So you were told what to do in meditation. What kind of, what relationship is this? What kind of relationship is where just all of a sudden you're, you were in meditation and you're being told?

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Yes. Oh, I got big instructions and I always thought it must be from God. There was no question it could be anything else.

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I mean, it didn't seem nefarious. Well, it was, it didn't even matter if it was because I was raised pantheistic.

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So all there is, is God. And so any spirit is from God. All is one. All is one. Yeah. It was just lower energy.

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Yeah. Yeah. So anything I got must be from God. So I was told, you know, these different methods to do and, and how to do them.

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And then that's what I would teach others through this book. Okay. So there's so much to explore here.

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By the way, Peter Jones, have you heard Peter Jones? No. Go check out Peter Jones. I think he, you would, you would absolutely be blessed by Peter Jones and his, his discussion on one ism, two ism.

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It would, it'll really, really help with where you're going in terms of like really codifying and expressing the worldview distinctions.

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But we could probably do this for hours. When did it start to get nefarious? Where you realize, was there any moment where it seemed nefarious?

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Never? No. I want to tell you something. When you opened this show with Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12 or 13,

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I started crying because I have that open right here. Oh yeah. Because that's the, that is the.

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No spirit told me to do that. That is the passage that convicted me of my sin.

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That was, that was it. When I had a vision of Jesus, it was, it was just a static picture, like a mind's eye, but he was out here with light coming out.

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But I had epiphanies when I saw that. So the epiphany was Jesus of the Bible is real. And before then

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I had doubted that. The next epiphany was the Bible's real, complete knowing that the

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Bible was real. The third epiphany was that he had been crucified for our sins. Before then, I had fallen into the zeitgeist conspiracy theory, that it was

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Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian. And then the fourth epiphany was I have to get out of the new age.

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And so all four of those happened. I don't know what space of time. But Doreen, why? Like where, how did this just drop from heaven?

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The feeling was that Jesus was always there, but the veil lifted. But what happened?

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Was someone talking to you? No, I was at, I, at that point was getting called by Jesus. So my husband and I were at church in Hawaii and an outdoor service.

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And they were just making announcements is the beginning of the service. There was no prayer, no meditation, just my whole viewpoint was

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Jesus. And this, and he, and it was like these, it reminds me of what I'm hearing about these Muslim dreams of seeing

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Jesus in a dream, pointing you to the Bible. And yeah, exactly. I heard these stories. As soon as it happened,

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I couldn't wait to be baptized. I had never thought of that before. And I couldn't wait to read the entire

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Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I couldn't wait. So I started and I was still doing new age things because I didn't know what

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I was doing wrong. In my mind, everything was allowed. So I was still doing these angel cards and readings and things until I got to Deuteronomy 18.

27:37

And that's when I was saved. I was going to ask you if you actually knew the background. Yeah. Because when you opened with that,

27:43

I was going to ask if you knew that story. No, no, no. When I've talked about this subject, every time that I talk about it,

27:49

I, I will always go to Deuteronomy 18 because when you, and I'm sure you're, you guys are both aware of this.

27:55

When you really unpack that passage and the understanding of those different practices and professions, you understand how it relates in a new age and how it's being done today.

28:06

And in every way from pendulum to even chiropractic, some forms of chiropractic care.

28:13

What's it called again? The network chiropractic and the cranial. We had to, we had to actually do this.

28:20

There's a two hour message I have up at church. We had to actually thank

28:25

God we were informed. Some members of our church had accidentally got sucked into this chiropractic care that had a lot of occultic practices mixed in with it.

28:35

KST, KST, core and specific technique. They use a lot of the, yeah. So, well, what happened was

28:41

I was reading the NLT translation, which is, you know, a pretty good dynamic translation for beginners because the

28:47

KJV being in our house wasn't helping me because I didn't understand it. Interestingly, the

28:54

Christian science cult is KJV only us. I think that's just so ironic. I don't know.

29:00

There may be something. Well, so in the NLT, it says that these practices

29:05

God finds despicable. And there was something about that word that just slayed me.

29:11

It just, it just broke my heart because I thought I was doing God's work until I read that.

29:17

And then, of course, reading the Old Testament prophets about the idolatry and the false prophets, I really related and I relate so much to Acts 16, 16, the girl with the

29:26

Python spirit of divination. That's who I was. I was giving messages and making a lot of money for my publishers and event producers.

29:36

Wow. So just to help our audiences listening to this now, I'm trying to think of the questions they might be asking.

29:42

Maybe they might ask, did you really hear voices? I heard voices and I saw what

29:49

I thought were angels. Okay. Since I was a child. Since you were a child. Wow. And this, the home that you were raised in, is this, was this sort of like a common belief and practice?

29:58

And is that why this began or? No, it wasn't. My brother and I, my brother, my younger brother,

30:04

Ken is two years younger than me. He's also saved and born again. We're the, and his family.

30:10

So we're the only ones in the family who are saved. The rest of the family is new age, new thought. And so that's why

30:17

I, I didn't ask to be saved. I didn't ask for Jesus. He called me.

30:22

It's why I have reformed leanings now. John six. Yes. John 10. Romans, Romans nine.

30:29

Ephesians one. We can keep going. I'm the case study for Romans nine. Yes. Seriously. I would never have left the new age.

30:35

I was set for life. It was, it was the ax nine moments where Paul is on his high horse, gets knocked off and his eyes are opened.

30:43

It was very much like that. I relate to Paul so much, except for, I probably should have gone away for three years like you did, but I went through sanctification publicly.

30:50

Right. And we all, all of us are. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We should probably go to break soon.

30:56

Yeah, actually let's do that. So I thank you guys all for watching. We have much more to say, much more to come. Uh, we're going to get into some important conversation here.

31:03

Um, and so if you guys would, uh, take the link, share it across your social media platforms, let everybody know important discussion to have.

31:11

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31:17

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31:29

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32:18

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32:25

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32:30

And one more word. You want to tell everyone about reform con? Yes. We've been talking about reform con.

32:36

You can go check that out at reform con .org, October 24th to the 26th. And what's important today is today is the last day to get the early word special.

32:47

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33:00

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33:07

We will take you out to dinner during the conference. Yeah. One of the nights, Luke and me and pastor set up and we'll take you out.

33:13

We'll take you out to dinner. Yep. McDonald's I think. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be better than McDonald's.

33:18

Anyways. So yes, reform cod .org. Check that out. We're super excited for it. Get those early bird specials today.

33:24

Yeah. And when you come to reform con, it's a three day conference, two days are specifically reform con.

33:30

One day is dedicated to end abortion. Now you just need to know there's limited seating. The end abortion. Now conference is a free conference, but the, but people are people who get the reform con tickets, get their tickets for it first.

33:41

If we run out of seats, then that's it. It's a free conference, but the seats are full. But we are actually going to be premiering.

33:49

Babies are still murdered here. Babies are murdered here too at reform con. So if you want to see the premiere of one of the most important films we have ever produced, and I think one of the most important films of the next five years,

34:04

I think you need to be here for that. Also, we are going to be getting ramped up for next year's big gospel fight in the area of abortion.

34:14

Pastor Luke is going to be preaching on that. End abortion now a day. I'll be preaching and you get to hang out with us, spend time with us.

34:19

But more importantly, we are doing this to network with all the Christians and churches across the country so we can all be praying together and then being sent out to affect this issue.

34:28

So that's it, guys. Stay with us. Three minute break here, guys. We're coming back more with these ladies talking about the new age and the occult.

34:35

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34:41

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39:00

Luke the Bear. I am the Ninja, and we are here today with some very, very important guests.

39:07

If you guys are just joining us, I want to encourage you guys to take the link here and share it across your social media platforms.

39:14

Doreen Virtue, Melissa Doherty, we're talking about the New Age and the occult. We are talking with two ladies that know this subject, and we're talking in particular, we're talking with Doreen and really trying to talk through,

39:28

I think it's vital to actually make this point, especially for people who are just joining us, what you were experiencing in the

39:36

New Age was real. Yes, and that's why when I look at the modern church prophets, what they're doing is exactly what

39:43

I was doing, and so they're having real experiences. Okay, that is the next jumping off point. There you go.

39:49

Okay, so when you talk about people today that are calling this, oh, this is just charismatic, you know, when we're doing these, what are just clearly

39:56

New Age pagan practices, they're saying, well, no, this is just a version of charismatic

40:01

Christianity. You're saying these things are familiar to you. It's exactly the same. In fact,

40:07

Melissa has torn apart my old teaching books, and she's compared it to what

40:12

Bethel is teaching, and we have straight across the same message.

40:18

Give me a couple examples of that. I went to a Sean Bowles event, and I will continue to go to hyper charismatic events because it's just what

40:25

I do for research, and I was fine the whole time. There was nothing wacky until the end, and he did what he, he's like, we're going to do a word of knowledge now, and I filmed the whole thing because I just couldn't believe what

40:38

I was watching. It was like a psychic reading. It was what she used to do. I'm getting a name. I'm getting, you know, seven numbers here.

40:44

It's an address, and people are blown away by it because they're blown away. The last people he talked to were crying.

40:51

It was so specific, so dead on, and I was even kind of shocked because I'm all, this is not a cold reading.

40:57

He's getting this information from somewhere, and the last folks that he talked to, it was quite astounding how precise the information came in, and how they were, they were honestly touched by this.

41:10

They honestly thought he was hearing from God, and I remember I left, and I wrote you, and I'm all, that was a psychic reading.

41:18

That's what I'm seeing from these. I watch Bethel TV sometimes, and I'll see, you know, a

41:24

Heidi Baker and such, and there's a biblical precedent for naming names, okay, so this is not me judging.

41:30

This is beyond Matthew 18. I just want to say that. I'm not dividing the body. I don't have a

41:36

Pharisee or religious spirit. It's nothing like that. I am not a cessationist either. I do believe God still heals people, and there's still miracles, and if someone did have the genuine gift of prophecy that exactly matched

41:47

Scripture, I would be open to seeing that, but I haven't found it yet. What I'm seeing is people saying things that don't match

41:54

Scripture, and that their readings are very me -oriented and not gospel -oriented, so they're talking about people's life purpose, about sowing a seed for prosperity.

42:04

That's New Age. It's not about God. It's never about God. It's not about Jesus and His glory. It's about me, my stuff, me, me, me, me.

42:11

The only difference is I see them throwing in, you know, the famous quote from Esther, you're born for just such a time as this, and I see them sprinkling mantles and such, you know, the little thing from Elijah, which has nothing to do with what they're talking about.

42:25

Right, right. And what's so interesting is that when I came out of the New Age, and I was confused because I hadn't read the whole

42:32

Bible yet, which is, this is the guide that we've all been looking for, the

42:37

Bible. I could have easily become a Christian prophet, so easily.

42:43

In fact, one of these churches would have probably welcomed me with my following on social media, and I started to follow, before I knew better,

42:52

I started to follow two false Christian, not Christian, but teachers, Joyce Meyer and Jennifer LeClaire.

42:59

I started to follow them because they said they were Christian and they said Bible quotes. And thank you,

43:05

Lord, that He led me to fighting for the faith with Chris Rosebro, Pastor Chris. And Pastor Chris showed how

43:12

Jennifer LeClaire's teaching was not biblical and how Joyce Meyer's teachings were not biblical. And that led me to join the

43:19

NAR Heresy Watch Facebook group soon after I was saved. And that really kept me in the safety net of watching out for false teachers.

43:29

Can you explain? We know what the NAR is, but can you explain for our listeners who don't know what it is?

43:35

The New Apostolic Reformation is a group of churches that sometimes deny that it's even a real thing.

43:44

But it's a belief that all of the functions, the offices that were in the

43:49

Bible, prophet and apostle, are still in line. Now there's a great book on this by Holly Pivick called

43:56

Super Apostles, which she has studied the NAR in depth. And what she's found is that the so -called apostles of today have absolute authority over their flock, to way beyond what a pastor would do.

44:11

And if you defy, in fact, let me just read you what she has found in her studies here. This is from Super Apostles.

44:19

So she said that an apostle's authority can extend beyond churches to cities and workplaces and among institutions that have no connection with the church.

44:30

Failure to submit to an apostle in an NAR church is seen as defiance against God. Isn't that crazy?

44:38

Wow. So here's where I come from. As a former psychotherapist, I treated drug and alcohol addictions and eating disorders.

44:44

I heard that you have a similar background. A lot of what I treated was codependents married to narcissists.

44:51

That was the classic pairing in marriages. And I'm seeing that with the church. I'm seeing narcissists who are calling themselves these fancy names like apostle.

44:59

And someone who is a diagnosed narcissist is someone who will not take any criticism.

45:05

So you cannot do an iron sharpened iron with someone who's a narcissist. They just will call you names back.

45:13

This defensiveness is what we're seeing. When we or Lindsay Davis or someone talks about the

45:19

NAR, we immediately get called names for doing it. And so to me, that fits with the diagnostic criteria for narcissism.

45:28

Because if it's someone who really cares about God's word and really cares about shepherding, they're going to be open to hearing correction.

45:37

I almost said NRA when I asked that. NRA. Well, I think this brings up a good conversation here.

45:44

And obviously we've discussed, well, Koltish has discussed Bethel with Lindsay Davis and that name's come up.

45:50

Can you guys give us some specific examples of teaching from Bethel that is clearly falls in this category?

45:58

I know you have plenty. And the reason I ask this is because I think Bill Johnson's very good at disguising things.

46:06

And so he's very sneaky. He is, but he isn't. He's not very careful sometimes. Well, and that's good because we get that's a lot of feedback we've had is like, well, no, they're a church, they're solid.

46:14

You know, it's like, but I feel like he disguises the heresy a little bit and makes it look good, makes it look like truth.

46:23

So give us some examples of what you're talking about. In this book, Physics of Heaven, he's not even trying to hide it anymore. And so he's openly saying that the

46:31

New Age stole the spiritual gifts from Christianity and that they're taking them back. The book in Pliacy, and this is where it kind of hits home for me because I come from a metaphysical

46:41

New Thought background. So whenever I very much could have been in a church like Bethel and been perfectly happy because what people are doing, they're leaving the

46:49

New Age and they're going to churches like this. Oh, I still want to use my superpower. Oh, now you can.

46:55

There's a Christian version for that. Yep. And that is what I'm seeing because I had an obsession with the supernatural.

47:01

It naturally came for her. For me, I wanted that. Yeah. So it was fully accepted in my household growing up.

47:09

In this instance, you have books like Physics of Heaven. That's just one. You have Glory Realms. You have

47:14

Experiencing Heaven. And you have a group of these authors who are coming together. These are the leaders at Bethel.

47:20

And they're coming together and they're saying basically that there is an authentic version for everything we find in the

47:27

New Age. Wow. Astral projection. Yes. Psychic readings. Everything. You name it. They're saying, yes, we need to take back what belongs to the church, is what they're saying.

47:37

That is such an amazing point of manipulation. Yeah, because you can't argue. This stuff is real, but God is sovereign.

47:45

And so we need to take back ownership over these things. Oh, and we're allowed to. And that's the thing is throughout this entire book, the sovereignty of God is nilch.

47:53

It's us. We're supposed to take up the mantle. And Bill Johnson, he's one of the contributors to this book.

48:00

And there's nothing to indicate that they're not in harmonious agreement to what's being said in this book and others.

48:07

You have the glory realms, which he wrote the foreword to. Chris Vallotton gives the foreword to this particular book.

48:12

And this is incredibly damning to them. If he doesn't have to say anything on the pulpit, just go read his books.

48:18

And you'll find everything that you ever needed to know about Bethel and the ins and outs of their beliefs and what their goal is.

48:26

Their end goal is revival. They want to control the weather. I'm not kidding. They literally say there's a hidden chapter in the book called the red pill chapter.

48:35

And what I read in Dorian's books is about how we have superpowers.

48:41

We have these abilities that we need to tap into because all is God. God is all things that we agreed with and believed with.

48:50

Well, in this book, you have what's called the red pill chapter that you can find online. And it talks about having superpowers, that we are supposed to have the ability to control the weather, that we're supposed to be able to think where we want to go and transport there in a second.

49:04

And they're frustrated because they're not seeing this in the church.

49:09

They want more. And so they're saying, basically, they're saying we need to go to the New Age because they seem to have this.

49:16

And we can find an authentic version of what they're experiencing. And of course, according to them, it's biblical.

49:24

And just for anybody that's just now joining us, you're talking about Bethel Church. I am. Yep. I'm talking about that and everything affiliated with them.

49:32

So this is one of the fastest growing churches. Great music. Oh, great music. Heresy. Yes. And even their music.

49:38

They're absolutely... It's addictive. We really can see the hand of the enemy in their music. Yeah. Okay. We played and sang a lot of it when it first came out.

49:47

We first started Apology of Church. And then we started to see the stuff coming from the pulpit.

49:52

And it was like, whoa, time out. What's going on over here? Their music is another... They talk about music being in a trance. They talk about going into a deeper consciousness.

50:00

And so... There's a connection point between there. We may not have time to fully explore here, but in terms of the music and energy created through the music that has been used by gurus and swamis for millennia.

50:14

People have been using the beats and the music to get people into an altered state of consciousness. And you have the repetitive nature of the beats.

50:22

Repetitive. You have... I mean, people don't understand. I think at times, Christians understand that, look, when you look at the guys that are banging down the street...

50:30

Well, for example, I was in Kauai with my son. We're doing evangelism.

50:36

And I took him up to where this new age shop is in Kapa 'a, and I was like, we were in here. This is what they're doing.

50:42

Look at this stuff. And as he walked down the stairs, this person comes banging down the street.

50:48

And I was trying to explain to him. He's like, well, that just seems so foolish. And it was like, Hare Krishna, Hare... Over and over.

50:54

I was trying to explain to him. I was like, it's not just a weird practice. The clanging and the repetition for hours and hours and hours becomes a trance where you get into an altered state of consciousness.

51:08

Now take that same principle of methodology that's been used for millennia in all of these new age religions and cults.

51:17

And now you take that and put that into the Christian church, but you do it with the veneer of Christian worship music. Understand that if you have a 12, 15 minute long song with the same beat and repetitive nature, it will take you and throw you on the floor.

51:35

Which according to them is the purpose. They want to do this. They're not even hiding it anymore. And here's the thing.

51:41

So you know this. You two know this. This is your field. This is your area. So you'll hear Bill Johnson say something or you'll hear one of these people say something and you go,

51:49

I know where you got that. And it's not from the Bible. It's okay.

51:55

So 2 Timothy 3, 16, all scripture is God breathed. We have a counterfeit to that, don't we?

52:01

That all of this apostasy is from the enemy breathed. Because it's all the same.

52:07

It's the same author. Just like all the 66 Bible books differ human authors, but the same

52:13

Holy Spirit, same author. With the New Age, it's the same author. That's why it's repetitive.

52:20

In the physics of heaven, the authors in there talk about the power of sound. I had written about that in the

52:26

New Age when I wrote a big book called Solomon's Angels. And it was a novel, but it was based on what

52:32

I believed that Solomon didn't use any metal tools to create the temple because they were like war instruments with metal.

52:40

So he used sound. So I had this big story about how Stonehenge stones were moved with sound and the temple.

52:48

Everything was built with sound. So everything that I find in the Bethel videos and their books, been there, done that.

52:55

I've already written that. But the thing is, you can't refute them with that because they're saying no big deal.

53:01

You appropriated that from Christianity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's amazing because you can trace the pedigree and the lineages to these practices and demonstrate that it is certainly not from Christianity or biblical worldview.

53:17

It most definitely comes from the world of the occult in the New Age. There is a pedigree and a movement you can trace it to.

53:24

And the sad thing about it is it becomes, well, I'll give you an example, okay?

53:29

I don't want this to take us off track, but good example. I don't like to always address the comments that are happening here, but it's a good example.

53:35

It just happened to pop up. There's a woman in our feed here that said something to the effect of, like something like nose rings.

53:45

Yeah, like that's from God, like that's pagan. And I was thinking to myself here, that is so indicative of exactly the thing we're talking about here is that Christians make assumptions or have a tradition that they just adopt and they embrace, not testing it by the standard to say, this is the standard, right?

54:06

Of what's pagan, what's not pagan, what's occultic, what's not occultic, what's true, what's not true, what's just, what's unjust.

54:12

So for example, a woman comes in here and she sees, she said, oh, like nose rings, women. Yeah, that's a pagan thing.

54:17

Great job Christians for picking that up. And it's like, or Ezekiel 16, where God is actually talking about how he made

54:25

Israel, his wife, beautiful. And he put a nose ring. He says that he wrapped her in linen and silk and he says, and he put a nose in her ring to make her beautiful.

54:32

Ring in her nose. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Ring in her nose to make her beautiful. So apparently God's a fan of facial piercing in terms of beautifying his wife.

54:40

But here is a great example of a Christian who's like, who sees something, a practice and either has a tradition behind her that goes, that just, that's just pagan, but not testing it by the standard or Christians today that will just have a preacher or a pastor give them a tradition or a standard and say, this is from God.

54:59

We develop this stuff. This is not a cultic. It's not pagan. We had it first. And it's like, you didn't ever do the critical research to ask the question, does he know what he's talking about?

55:10

Pew research recently found that only 5 % of self -proclaimed Christians have read the whole

55:16

Bible, only 5%. And so it's less in the secular world. And then you have spiritual blindness on top of that.

55:22

I was spiritually blind in the new age. I could not have been saved myself.

55:28

I had no idea that I was sinful because I was raised, that I was perfect, whole and complete, that God had made me in his image and likeness,

55:35

Genesis 1, and that nothing had changed. So in order to be saved, I had to face my sinful nature, that I was,

55:42

I was depraved. And people who are in these churches may be spiritually blind and may just be hearing us as want, want, want, and just kind of reacting to what we seem, they might think we're unloving.

55:54

But our concern is people who do leave the new age, who've been convicted and don't know any better, like lost sheep.

56:01

And they go, oh, this church seems familiar. It's got psychics, but they call them prophets. So they're cool. And they go into the church and they never hear the gospel.

56:09

So they remain unsaved. That is our concern. And that's why we're so, we're huge proponents of reading the

56:17

Bible, because that's, that's what happened to me, is that I was very biblically illiterate, and I had no idea what the

56:22

Bible taught. And that's how I got into new thought. I didn't realize that it wasn't Christian. I thought it was

56:28

Christian. I thought it was a higher form of spirituality. And you know, back then, it just kind of snuck up on me.

56:34

Now it's just kind of being, you know, welcomed in through these churches. Yes. So I, we've been going for a while here,

56:40

I think, but I want to get a few more things. Everybody who is with us right now, again, if you're new here,

56:45

New Age and the Occult, with two very lovely ladies that know this subject and want to bring the gospel and biblical worldview into it.

56:53

Make sure you guys share this across your social media platforms. Help us to communicate the gospel and the biblical worldview in the public square.

56:59

Okay. So I have two, two specific ones I wanted to ask. And that is one, there is a very, very popular movement now that is really an obsession with aliens.

57:12

And a lot of the conversation that's taking place when people start embracing the idea of these other aliens that have planted us here, and you know, a lot of these things lead people into trying to now communicate with these spirits and these aliens.

57:30

So is there, is there at times, and this might be a larger discussion we don't have time for now, but maybe just a quick answer.

57:36

Is there a familiarity with you and where you're from in terms of when people start talking about aliens?

57:42

Is there a connection between aliens and the New Age or is there, does it seem like they're bedfellows? Yeah. Okay. There's, there's different aspects of New Age, just like there's different denominations of Christianity.

57:52

And so I came from the type of New Age that was very fantasy -like. And so it was mermaids and angels and fairies.

57:59

And the alien one, which I was into for about two years with Dr. Steven Greer's work. Okay. And, and so I was looking at that, but it was kind of like going into another church.

58:08

So, but, but yeah, there's a definite homogeny there with the, the unclean spirits and the counterfeit spirits posing as aliens.

58:18

And I used to go outside and talk to the stars and say, please help us.

58:23

I was really into this, the, the whole serious thinking that that's where we got our water from for the planet and the whole belief that we were water beings to begin with.

58:35

And so that fit into it. This is really, this is kind of interesting. You're making some claims.

58:41

People are like, what? Like, wait, wait, what? But here's the thing I think we're going to talk about, Doreen, in terms of like the biblical worldview providing a grounding and the preconditions necessary to make sense of evidence, facts, logic, love, beauty, truth, goodness.

58:59

Like we have, we have an ultimate standard, a principium, a reference point for everything. And we have a reason to be able to say,

59:07

I believe this because, and we can move down the line of evidences and reason and all those different things. But you're making these claims about mermaids and these and that, and serious and water.

59:17

Here's the thing. When you made those claims, it wasn't because of evidence, it was a worldview.

59:23

It was a worldview. But when I look at it now through the lenses of a Christian who's, who is,

59:29

I'm reading the Bible now for the fourth time through, and I'm taking seminary classes. And as a former psychologist and someone who was in that world,

59:37

I'm an insider. When I look at that, I see that new age is a coping mechanism for trauma survivors.

59:45

And so in the type of new age I was in, it was very much about disconnecting from reality.

59:55

Very much like you see with disassociation. And so when, when

01:00:01

I left the new age, people were very angry with me. I mean, I, there's so much slander about me on YouTube that it's just crazy.

01:00:09

People were making up stories about me that don't make any sense. Fake videos of things that they said

01:00:16

I did, which are shocking. And part of the reason I realize now is I was kind of taking away their coping mechanism.

01:00:23

They like to go into that dissociative state of believing that fairies are going to rescue them and that they can go swim with mermaids in the ocean and such.

01:00:31

And it was a very kind of happy place to go. It's like a bubble world, an alternative reality.

01:00:37

Yes. Oh man. I'm so glad you guys are doing more with us. We have so much we'd like to talk about, but I just, just briefly, you, you lived in Hawaii.

01:00:45

Yes. 11 years. 11 years. Which islands? Big Island, mostly Waimea and Kona.

01:00:51

And then I lived in Maui for a while. Awesome. Okay. So we planted a church in the

01:00:56

Island of Kauai and we, this would be, maybe this is more for us.

01:01:02

Yeah. And in terms of like, it's encouragement for us, but also it'd be more for us in terms of like when we let people know the importance of actually bringing the gospel to the islands, people can understand like, you don't plant a church in Kauai because it's paradise.

01:01:16

It's actually very hard to plant churches in Hawaii. Very hard. Yeah. It's a very hard culture to crack.

01:01:22

Especially as a non -Hawaiian. Exactly. And, and if you have a message that says, Jesus is the only way, this is the truth.

01:01:30

You must yield to it. Hawaii doesn't, doesn't, That would be threatening to them. Very much so.

01:01:35

They want their, their deities to be mixed in. And this is where, this is sort of what I'm getting at is the new age that has set up shop in Hawaii, generally on all the islands.

01:01:46

And Kauai, there's one of the biggest goddess temples there. Yes, that's right. Where is that at?

01:01:52

I'm trying to think where that's at. That's the South, South side. It's a Kali and she's the, the

01:01:59

Hindu goddess of destruction. That isn't on the South side? I think so. I think it's on the South side.

01:02:04

There's a couple of different ones. I think that's fine. Okay. So, but, but this is interesting in terms of like the importance of this, cause it does lead into like even evangelicalism, highly impacted by new age practices and beliefs is you have a place that like Hawaii, we love the people of Hawaii so much and they're such lovely, amazing, amazing people, but they've been so impacted by not only their ancient religion, which is very pagan and occultic and things like that, but also these

01:02:31

Americans that have come and set up shop in Hawaii with all the new age beliefs have sort of like just fed into that sort of all is one and Ohana is most important.

01:02:41

Don't disrupt Ohana. Right. And you know, if I go to the Jehovah's witness thing on Monday and then I go to the new age thing on Tuesday, no big deal.

01:02:49

Like don't cause any, you know, rebels. So we, we noticed that we started experiencing as a church, some very overt, overt.

01:03:00

And I mean, from a human perspective, terrifying experiences where, where we were coming into the house, we're setting up to preach the gospel.

01:03:08

We started experiencing some very overt spiritual attacks. People on our team who would never think like this and never even have this kind of a perspective.

01:03:18

They're not seeking these kinds of experiences, being told to kill themselves. Very strange spiritual experiences of people on the island, just coming and standing and staring at them, like knowing who they were like, like we don't have any idea who these

01:03:34

They're just showing up and they just know who you are. They call it the coconut wireless. Yes. And, and so, so also people getting cuts and marks on their bodies while they're asleep, entities, weird, strange spirits walking through the house.

01:03:50

I know all this sounds crazy to our listeners. They're like, Jeff, I thought you were a reformed Baptist. I am. And my point is, is that we don't seek these things.

01:03:58

We're not conspiracy theorists, but here's my point of bringing up. This is a reality. We're not fighting against flesh and blood alone.

01:04:06

This is not just silly things like people are just being silly. There is a legitimate spiritual element to this and that is in Hawaii and it has impacted even

01:04:17

Christianity here, of course, on the mainland, but also in Hawaii. Yeah. When I was saved,

01:04:23

I went through, I didn't even know that demons were real. I had no theology about the devil or anything.

01:04:32

So when I went through spiritual warfare, and it was in Hawaii, I was,

01:04:38

I could not sleep. It was insomnia. It was as if they were attacking me and I could, it was palpable.

01:04:44

I could feel. Yes, you could feel their presence. And I also got a sense that there was people in some communities praying against me.

01:04:51

And so I didn't know what to do. So I played deliverance ministry videos and they actually made it worse.

01:04:58

Like the spirit that goes and gets seven more and brings it back. It got worse and worse. Finally, I kind of found that if I play audio of the

01:05:06

Bible, that that would leave me alone. Wow. That's what we found too, is just the only way to combat that very real dark spiritual presence was with the word of God, praying and speaking against it.

01:05:18

Like Jesus in the wilderness. Exactly. That's the only way we could actually get freedom from these things. People on our team that hadn't even been conversing to one another about what they were experiencing came and broke down to us as pastors and privately started bawling, saying, this is what

01:05:35

I'm experiencing. I feel like I'm going crazy. And lo and behold, we talked to the other person, they break down and say,

01:05:40

Pastor Jeff, we're experiencing this. And I was like, wow. You know, it's real. I had to read

01:05:46

C .S. Lewis's Screw -Teep letters. That really instructed me. Wasn't that instructional? I love it. It's total fantasy, but not?

01:05:52

No, it's too real. He went through it, obviously. And then, as I said, just really studying how

01:05:58

Jesus handled the demons in the wilderness. You had a different experience out there, right?

01:06:03

Was that the time whenever you saw? Well, it's interesting because I've had these paranormal experiences since I was a child.

01:06:09

And then they've kind of stopped. I'm still very intuitive, sensitive. But the last vision that I had was early 2018, where I saw a demon and just this manifestation of a demon.

01:06:23

And I screamed the name of Jesus and it went away. But it really, it scared me.

01:06:30

I now have a cross on the wall where that demon came through. It was terrifying. But then the vision stopped after that.

01:06:36

And here's the thing, Doreen, people are going to hear you say that right now, that are Christians that want to be grounded in the word of God. And they're going to say, like, you know,

01:06:46

I probably would too if I heard that story. But I want people to be very, very serious about the world that you were in and the communication with spirits that you had to take you very seriously.

01:06:59

When you talk about this being the ultimate standard and to test all things by this, when you say you had an experience like this,

01:07:08

I want to say it's not, I would say, impossible or really in essence, when you're doing this kind of work, uncommon to have these kinds of crazy experiences.

01:07:18

I mean, I've experienced some very intense spiritual attacks and some stuff that is out of this world.

01:07:27

It's not from this world kind of experiences. I found that what really helped was to submit to the

01:07:33

Holy Spirit's guidance. I found that whenever I would resist what the Holy Spirit was guiding me to do, which was mainly to be bold on social media and denounce my old work.

01:07:42

I was trying to just post the light, you know, your faith will move mountains kind of post.

01:07:49

And the Holy Spirit was saying, no, you need to be very clear with people that what you created before is heresy. You need to tell them that.

01:07:55

And so as soon as I would obey that and put something on social media that would say that if you use my old cards, you will attract demons.

01:08:04

You know, you're opening yourself up for the, this is a tool of the devil. And so people would get so mad.

01:08:12

My friend Melissa here would help me to moderate my page when I would post those things. But it got the word out.

01:08:18

You know, like I said, my books and I had what were like, well, I had some tarot cards with angels on them.

01:08:24

I mean, really horribly heretical stuff that I deeply regret. But God's using my sinful past for his glory now by calling people out of the new age who are on the fence, who are being called anyway.

01:08:36

And there's some new age teachers watching me kind of because they're getting called, but they're afraid of the slander

01:08:42

I'm going through and the persecution. So I'm just praying for anyone who's being called, who's on the fence to say that, just go, just leave the new age and go to Jesus's arms.

01:08:54

Wow. If I could just offer some encouragement to you and to our listeners who maybe have gone through certain things without getting,

01:09:00

I know we're closing out here, so without getting into a whole other eschatological... No, take your time. It's fine. This can go one direction, especially if I get you going on an eschatology moment.

01:09:08

I'll keep my mouth shut. But like one thing, since this has come up with us in Kauai, I've studied this a little bit and actually

01:09:15

I got this from Joe Boot, but he pointed out that if you look at the Old Testament, there really wasn't any demonic activity.

01:09:22

You know, then there's that 400 year period between the Old Testament and Christ and then Christ shows up and bam, it's the demons are freaking out.

01:09:31

They know what's coming. And if you think about it this way, obviously there's nothing for us to fear, but the reason we see stuff like that, that we see demonic opposition, is because as we're growing

01:09:45

Christ's kingdom with the gospel, we're regaining this world for the kingdom of Christ and they're freaking out and they know that.

01:09:56

And so that's why you see these Jeff Claus and parlor tactics, parlor tricks, where it's just little games to get us to be scared.

01:10:04

They can't harm us, but they're trying to scare us because they know we're taking over what they've had for a long time.

01:10:10

That's right. We had, and I'm glad you brought that up, we had one of our people on our team, same experience.

01:10:15

Isn't it amazing listening to her talk about the experience? Yeah, absolutely. Laying down your head at night, you're in bed and this presence fills your room and is on top of you.

01:10:23

The spirit of heaviness I have. Yeah, pinning you to your bed, those sorts of things. We had one of our people that experienced that, being pinned to their bed.

01:10:30

We had somebody who was getting marked up and one of these things was walking around her room and there's witnesses to this and all the rest.

01:10:40

So believe me, we're not, again, conspiracy theorists, crazy stuff, tinfoil hat stuff. This is like thinking biblically, being grounded, saying spiritual elements to all this.

01:10:49

It's interesting because it was those kinds of parlor tricks. It was like a scary, let me freak you out by walking around the room or being here or whispering something.

01:11:02

Yeah, it's blackmail. Yeah, whispering something. Blackmail, that's good. Just trying to escape. Because what can you do? Can you go, can a demon go where the spirit of God indwells?

01:11:10

Can the demonic reside within a Christian who's filled with God's spirit? No, it cannot.

01:11:16

So what's the worst you're going to get as a Christian? Parlor tricks, deception, lies, accusations, those kinds of things.

01:11:22

And what do you have? You have the sure word of God. You can speak against those sorts of things. You belong to Jesus.

01:11:28

You'll never be lost. And so when it comes to the demonic and the new age and the things that are associated with the occult and this whole world, the best that they've got is the parlor tricks.

01:11:37

And that's true. I think that the demonic freak out when you have a solid

01:11:45

Christian witness coming to engage where they're at. They know where there's no threat.

01:11:51

Like you might say, for example, there's tons of Christian churches in Hawaii and Kauai. Yeah, but if you're not a threat to the kingdom of darkness, there's not a lot of real concern for you.

01:12:02

But as soon as you get Christians who come out of that darkness and they come bringing the light into that world, that's where you get some massive opposition.

01:12:11

So I would say if you're getting a lot of spiritual attacks, a lot of accusations, a lot of deception, a lot of the really terrible parlor tricks from the demonic,

01:12:21

I would say it sounds like you're doing something right. It's an honor. It's an honor. It's an honor that they know your name.

01:12:27

Yeah, it's good that they know who you are. That's what Pastor Luke and I were telling our team in Kauai.

01:12:32

They know who we are and that's a good thing. So we're regaining ground for the kingdom.

01:12:38

So amen. Praise God. All right. Great show. And we have more coming, guys.

01:12:44

Our team is actually going to be recording Cultish, doing some episodes with the ladies here.

01:12:50

Where can everyone go to get more from you guys and get connected? I have a Facebook page, Doreen Virtue for Jesus, and we're both on Instagram and you've got

01:12:59

Melissa Doherty. Yeah, I'm on Facebook, Melissa Doherty Instagram, Melissa Doherty 77 and YouTube, both of us on YouTube.

01:13:07

And people can send us messages on Instagram. Excellent. All right. Thank you, ladies. Thanks for being here with us.

01:13:15

Hopefully, we get to do lots more in the future. All right, guys. I'm Jeff, the Culminator. That's Luke, the Bear. Peace out.

01:13:20

And you get more at ApologiaStudios .com. Don't forget, today's the last day to get the Early Bird discount for ReformCon.

01:13:27

Get it at ReformCon .org. Go do it soon. Don't forget, if you don't do it by the stroke of midnight tonight, you're not put into the raffle where Pastor Luke and I are going to take you out to dinner.

01:13:38

So get in there. Don't forget, there's limited seating, guys, for the conference. And when the seats are done, they are done.

01:13:44

That's it. So make sure you guys get them as soon as possible. We'll see you guys here in October. Thank you guys for listening.

01:13:49

God bless you. Jesus is God. Make sure you get to know Him, guys. We'll catch you guys next time right here in Apologia Studios.