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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven seven seven five three three-three-four-one. And now with today's topic here is James wife.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a very warm Thursday afternoon here in Phoenix, Arizona. Summer has definitely arrived though. It doesn't feel really bad here. The thermometer outside of my window has read a fairly consistent 112 and above all all afternoon, but it's nice and dry right now.

The monsoon hasn't started and I love how they have now decided to arbitrarily begin the monsoon on June 15th. Why? There's no moisture in June. June 15th. What what. I don't get that they used to remember what the the rule used to be was if you had Due point of 55 degrees and above for three days in a row.

That was the beginning of the monsoon. So that was actually an observable thing. Now, they've just decided, you know, that's that's too hard. Let's just say it starts June 15th. Well, it doesn't start June 15th.

I it's like changing clocks. It doesn't I'm sorry. It doesn't make any sense. I usually thought it would be around July or August. It's normally the second week of July. I'm the second week of July. That's that's what I remember and I I refuse to give in to political correctness and to Everything else and I know the government is recording every word that I say now.

We all know that. Whether you're with Verizon, it doesn't matter. I heard somebody today saying well I'm gonna have to switch from Verizon because I want the government knowing what I'm doing. Do you really think they skipped AT &T or T-Mobile?

I just wanted to go. Oh.

Wow.

And it's just like Read 1984 folks that they're using it as a playbook for crying out loud. It is amazing. But anyhow, that is neither here nor there. Welcome to the dividing line on a hot Thursday. Maybe the excessive heat causes us to address such issues.

I do not know. Before we dive into things a couple things. I want to say I want to point out Tony Costa informed me last week that Nielsen Bullock the Wonderful Christian man who moderated the debate not very long ago in the mosque in Toronto between myself and Shabir Ali passed away just a few weeks ago and That was that was a shame to hear he had actually just written to me in March.

Had sent me an email and passed away in May hadn't mentioned his sickness at that time, but Certainly remember his wife and family and and very thankful for his very compassionate heart. He had a very strong burden to reach out to the Muslims in the Toronto area and we certainly are thankful for his testimony to the the grace of Christ in his life and so we we remember that and Also, please keep in prayer our trips coming up.

We will have a program next Tuesday. But there will not be a program on Thursday because I will be going to Boston. I will be speaking just outside of Boston over the weekend and then flying To Berlin where I will be teaching for the Evangelical Biblical Training Center there.

We'll be doing a textual criticism class Week from Friday. I'll be doing a cults and false religions marathon. That's the only way to describe it. From like 8 in the morning to like 9 at night I think all recorded it's like 540 minutes 6 hour 9 hours 9 hours and that'll be in translation.

So Speaking for 9 hours in one day where you have to stop every sentence or halfway through a sentence or not use complex sentences will result in a quivering mass of Brain dead humanity by the end of that day I assure you and I'm really not sure what the schedule is going to be the days before that.

So prayers for Strength for that, but also just a reminder. We have two banner ads up on the website. But sometimes people get used to what's on the website. But we are still seeking to raise the necessary funds for the trip to Germany.

And of course then in October the trip via London to Johannesburg, South Africa. Where we will be doing debates we are going to try to arrange a debate in London on Roman Catholicism on my way down and then in In South Africa a number of debates with Yusuf Ismail and Adnan Rashid.

As well as a number of lectures down there. I've been told by the folks and I just want to really strongly commend The folks in South Africa who are working with us here Simon Brace got us in touch with with people down there in South Africa, man.

They have just to use a a colloquialism has have taken the bull by the horns I mean very quickly. I had a tentative schedule and people contacting other people. I mean just really a Tremendous amount of effort that was immediately thrown into it.

And and I've been told that they've had to turn down about 80 of the requests that they've had. For me to speak I could be down there for weeks. If if I wanted to and I wish and I wish I could on one level I mean I get homesick pretty quick.

And i'm i'm really more of a homebody than anything else. But I sort of have an expiration date when it comes to traveling after about 12 days. Uh, I I I don't start smelling like spoiled milk. I I just uh look like i've been drinking it.

That's what that way I just uh, generally, uh don't handle that kind of uh, extended time away overly well. So there's really no reason for people to have me someplace so i'm gonna get sick ask uh, the folks who brought me to london the first time in 2005 and I got sick as a dog boy.

That was lots of fun and Anyway, uh, those are are very expensive flights and uh, we still are are raising funds. So if you would like to help me to get to uh, germany london and johannesburg, uh, south africa.

Unlike the bigger ministries, we don't have big folks that just drop big bucks on us. It's um, Just never been that way probably never will be that way and um, so if you can help us we really do need to raise those funds as the time is Drawing near so if you can help us, please Please click on those banner ads on the website and help us to raise those funds to get to Germany london and south africa, which is pretty much around the world when you think about it.

We even thought about coming back through australia. Which would have made it through around the whole world. It's about the same distance. Uh, but uh, that didn't work out. But maybe someday because i'm hoping my hope is that this first trip to south africa will then open up other opportunities for future ministry there as well and uh, maybe the way to do that would be to You know, I want to get back down under uh, and uh There are some people there again a roman catholic apologist and of course abdullah kunda's down there uh arrange some more debates there and then I could probably fly from from sydney or brisbane either one, uh to south africa and uh, We could make it a world a world tour, uh that way.

Uh, who knows? Well, we will see but uh, anyhow, I just wanted to remind you of that that we continue to need to uh, Raise those uh those funds now last time on the program. We were uh listening to brian's call.

Which is different than brian's song. I just want to differentiate that for those of you I do remember that particular. He made a movie reference. Yeah, sort of but brian's song was uh, wow. That was like 19 What 70 something I just remember they had long sideburns.

So it was it was probably a long time ago uh, but We were listening to brian's call and uh, brian called in on on calvinist call-in day on michael brown's line of fire and so we have been responding uh to Michael brown's comments and I thought I my plan last time was just to play brian's call.

And then try to comment. There's just too much. And so I started commenting as it was playing. Which means I didn't even get well i'm looking at here on the screen. So one of the things I love about audio note taker Is I have brian's call all Colored it's it's green on on my screen.

And so I can see Relatively how long it is in comparison to other things and we got just I'd say about 55 of the way through it. Uh, so we've still got a little bit to go. But we have been responding to what michael brown said to brian.

I've tried to explain What brian was trying to say? And one of my concerns is that we have been hearing a confusion of categories on michael's part. Where he's mixing? The capacities and abilities of the unregenerate man With those of the regenerate man and clearly a person who is a rebel sinner to god Uh who has a heart of stone who is a slave Is going to have a different set of abilities and capacities than the the regenerate man who has been freed from Slavery to sin and so on and so forth.

And so we we hear some of the confusion and that will Come out especially I think toward the end of the call Uh, which we'll probably be getting to here, but let's go ahead and pick back up with uh, brian's call.

Uh to michael brown that call for a human choice, why does god say humble yourself if you can't. Just please tell me why.

And I think that's pretty much where we stopped last time. I I made the comment at that point in time uh that again, um Michael says, you know for a certain number of years. I was a staunch calvinist.

Okay. Any staunch calvinist knows the answer to that question? And so I would expect that what michael should say is well I once recognized that god uses means and I once recognized that god gives commands.

And that those commands are going to be received by the unregenerate person. And god has purposes for those commands the unregenerate purpose a person. And that it's going to be different for the regenerate person because clearly the regenerate person has the law written upon his heart and when you hear the command of god to hate your sin to humble yourself to be obedient to submit yourself to your creator all these Wonderful aspects of what god's law says to us.

There is a vast difference in how the unregenerate respond to those. And the regenerate respond to those. In fact, I would even make further distinction. And these are distinctions that michael I would be very surprised if he didn't Agree with me on.

For example, I have seen the law of god brought to bear um upon people and it has absolutely driven them to the lengths of insane expression of hatred for god. And I bet you michael has seen that I bet you michael has seen that from homosexuals.

Who have been absolutely in themselves given over in their love for this sin? So that any reference whatsoever to its sinfulness or on the other side the positive aspects of god's revelation regards to Heterosexuality In regards to jesus's teaching about marriage.

Oh, they just respond with an anger and a hatred that is absolutely self-consuming and yet and yet We would both have to recognize that that same positive law That speaks of the goodness of the god-ordained relationship of man male and female along with the negative aspect of that law that identifies Homosexuality as sin Is used by god as a means To bring about the repentance of homosexual people.

But that is always within the context of regeneration. Such were some of you but you were washed you were cleansed you were justified first corinthians chapter 6 verses 9 through 11. And so there you have Two kinds of the use of the law one god can use to actually increase the the the guilt and judgment upon someone On regenerative person and yet in another person's life He uses it as the means by which he brings them to repentance.

And then of course in the christian's life We hear that law we hear those commands and we rejoice in them and they give us guidance. And we learn more and more about the character of our god because of his self-revelation.

And so again the problem I have with with michael's argument is well if god says Love me perfectly then every single person must have the capacity as fallen sons and daughters of adam to love god perfectly that that do Assumes capacity.

The command to do assumes capacity. That's not the case. That is not the case. And so As a former calvinist michael should know How we understand those positive commands? And that we do not accept the idea that if god commands you to do it That means you are capable of doing it in and of yourself.

Now if he's gonna say well, okay, yeah We can't do it except for this prevenient grace. Well again, if you're going to define prevenient grace and it'd be nice to hear a definition of what it is biblically exegetically a grace that brings you to a neutral position and enables you To do something but doesn't actually accomplish Anything it's just an enablement.

Um, well that's obviously where we have a major problem at that point uh, because none of the discussions in scripture regarding stone hearts and valleys dry bones and dead people in tombs or Incapacity due to slavery to sin and all the rest of this type of stuff um none of None of those discussions ever mentioned prevenient grace or anything even near to prevenient grace.

Adam fell. Adam could have followed god perfectly. Okay, and he didn't. He fell. Each and every one of us. Who's responsible.

The same I didn't get. This is a real simple question brian. You you came you called with real strong charges. Okay that everyone who believes as I do has pride that somehow we are better than someone else.

Which that's not what brian said. I'm, sorry. I think michael got a little upset here. Um, he you know Michael will say things against calvinism will say and i'm not talking about everyone. Well, brian didn't say everyone.

He did say that in his experience. If god's trying to save everybody equally and he figured it out and somebody else didn't then that makes him better than somebody else. And that logically that would Lead to that.

He didn't say oh i'm sure you were this way, too. But what he was saying is if god is trying to save every single person equally. And i'm saved and somebody else isn't. The only difference between us is not that five-letter word grace.

It's the two-letter word me. Because that's the only differentiation you can make.

Which is again utterly bizarre and contra description, but a simple question. Why does god command us to humble ourselves and hold us accountable for whether we do or don't if we can't. Real simple question.

It's it's not a real simple question. I'm, sorry. It's not a It's not a yes or no situation. That's why I rarely call into programs because uh, I I know that if The person behind the microphone wants to control the conversation and control the answers you can.

And and that's what's going on here to be honest with you Is you're putting the caller in a position. Probably because Uh, you don't like what he's he's said. But you're putting the caller in a position to give a yes or no answer to a question.

That isn't a yes or no question. And if you say well, you know, you calvinists don't have yes or no questions. Well, I suppose we do but you know. Recognizing that god's commandments Are responded to by different people do their spiritual natures in different ways.

Which violates the yes and no black and white? Categories. Does anyone really argue that's not the case? Can anyone really argue?

That that's not the case. I I I don't think so because low and no one can do it.

Then why. Okay brian, why are you okay brian? What is your name? Brian, did you have a choice to say yes or no to that? Could you have made up another name?

Um. Clear category error, sorry. This is a clear category error. And I think you're gonna see that.

Okay, so you just made a choice.

We make choices every day.

Okay, when god says humble yourself wait here. God says to israel choose Life. I said before your life and death choose life now again.

Calvinists recognize we make choices every day. No one's denying that we Do not make choices. The choices we make however are going to be determined by our nature. Unregenerate men make choices. God in his common grace Keeps men from being as evil as they could be.

He restrains evil but To do what is good. Romans chapter 8 says those who are according to the flesh can not do that. Who do not. It's straightforward. I mean, I guess we could respond with a yes or no question michael.

Yes or no? Can those who are according to the flesh do what is pleasing to god? And if he starts talking about prevenient grace, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's a simple question. Yes, or no, see anybody can do that.

Anybody can do that. That's that's that's just not fair and this question Has to make a distinction. You know, he just asked brian. What's your name? You made a choice to give your name. Well brian's a christian.

So if we're gonna if we're gonna pursue this we're gonna have to pursue only what are the abilities and capacities of the regenerate person? But that's going to end up getting mixed in with. What are the abilities and capacities of the.

Unregenerate person. And that's the problem when joshua says to the people of israel Choose this day who you're going to serve as for me in my house We're going to serve the lord god does not rebuke him and say you're proud you're a pelagian you're as full of self-will.

No, no, that is commendable.

Of course is commendable, but I would assume that joshua is. Now again, I guess we'd have to ask a question Why is joshua a follower of god. Is it because god tried to save everybody equally and joshua was just good enough to do that.

Or was there a specific I mean honestly is is is joshua a follower of god. And the the amorites across the border. Who joshua wipes out? Are they the recipients of the same Extension of god's grace and god's spirit as joshua was so that.

They're each equal. That amorite high priest had just as much light just as much knowledge just as much grace. Prevenient grace the whole nine yards. And joshua was just more sensitive. And therefore made the right choice.

And they could have done the same thing because by prevenient grace. All that child sacrifice that they hadn't been given over. What does it mean that their their their transgressions were not yet full their iniquity was not yet full.

What does that mean? And these are some of the questions we would have to ask and to be honest with you. They cannot be answered in a yes and no fashion. Can they know they require something more than that?

God says to you brian choose whether you will receive my son and be saved or reject him. Yes.

He makes that that's called the general call.

But.

Certainly from a new testament perspective you cannot help but recognize there is a difference between the general call of the gospel. It goes out to all men. And the specific call the spirit of god. Because if you if you if you say that then you're stuck with the golden chain of redemption.

Why. Because all who are called are justified. Uh, okay, that can't be so there is an effective call. And that's the effective call that calls the remnant. That's why god could say I have reserved for myself the remnant.

So why does he say to israel? Why does he say i've held out my hands? It's a demonstration of the fact that outside of his grace There is no one who will come that he is just to condemn those who are in their sin and that those who do.

It's not because there's something better about them. It all resounds to his glory and to his grace a demonstration of his holiness, it's all about him not about us. That's that's the issue.

It is a choice that you make. As many as received him to them. He gave power to become the sons of god. He saves. We choose to refuse.

Or to submit so the question again if he saves or he tries to save is he trying to save everyone? If he's trying to save everyone equally and I then enable him to save me by my choice. Because again, if it's if it is this equal effort.

That it's god's intention to try to save every single person equally that there's no election. There's there's no elect. It's not just well god knows there's gonna be somebody who's saved and somebody who isn't no is god.

Intending trying to save person x and person y absolutely equally and the only difference between them is internal to them their choice. That's a big issue. Major issue especially is how we define.

Not only god's sovereignty god's purpose, but also god's grace. You do not have the power to humble yourself. This is really easy. If you do not have the power to humble yourself, why does god command you to do it and hold you responsible for doing it?

That assumes once again, and okay i've already covered this but let me just say it one one more time. The error of this assumption is that there is a command That that means we in and of ourselves possess the capacity to fulfill it.

Now adam did but adam fell. We are now the fallen sons and daughters of adam. And we now stand before a holy law that condemns us in our incapacity to fulfill it. God then uses it not only to curb the evil of men, but in some instances to exacerbate it.

As paul talks about that covetous that command do not covet. But he coveted. But then when the spirit comes the gospel comes. That law is brought to bear guilt relieved through fleeing to christ. Uses that in the act of regeneration Drawing his elect people into himself and then in the life of the believer teaching guiding directing instructing us as to what the will of god is.

We see all of this in scripture, you know, I could do the look at all the dozens of passages thing here. But I try to give specific examples rather than doing that. I believe we are responsible.

Okay, and I also believe that none of us are able because we are fallen in adam.

Then why does he tell you to do what you can't do that is that is completely contrary to his justice and to his goodness.

It makes it makes a mockery. It does not make a mockery. And we can show so many examples of this. I I mean how many. Well, I already have i've given so many examples. It's just uh, i'm sorry. This is this is a.

Obviously from my from my from michael's perspective. I have a blind spot. Obviously from my my perspective Michael has a blind spot and here it is. And and the reason I don't understand the blind spot is if you claim it's one thing if you've never been reformed.

To have a blind spot here and just not understand. Well, this is this is just a basic element of reformed theology but to be hammering on. Well, if god tells us to do it, we all must have the capacity to do it.

Really to me. Makes me go. I I don't think you've ever really understood a reformed soteriology and a reformed anthropology at this point. Because you wouldn't be asking this question in this way.

It's it's like me telling a handicapped person to run the marathon and holding them responsible when they don't.

Hold on. Let me ask you this question. Does god tell us not to sin? Okay the.

The handicapped person are we talking here about a christian or a non-christian. Are we talking about a regenerative person or an unregenerate person? Does the unregenerate person? Does the unregenerate person have the ability to bring about their own spiritual reformation?

It sounds like michael is saying yes because of prevenient grace. And we are saying no. And there is no such thing as prevenient grace. So i'm going to try as best I can to To finish this call now. I'm gonna i'm gonna try i'm gonna try.

Yes, and he gives us the and he gives us power to overcome. He gives it.

God commands you not to sin. Are you able not to sin?

So you don't sin you will not sin. You may I may choose to sin but I don't have to.

Okay, now hit I was going to try to get through but this is an important point. I may choose to sin, but I do not have to. Okay. Sin is of different kinds. There is a sin of commission. There is a sin of omission.

There are sins that are based upon our ignorance. The question then is does this open the door? to the concept of Sinless perfectionism. Now, I I don't believe that michael believes in sinless perfectionism.

At least I would hope not. But the question would be if you don't believe in sinless perfectionism Why don't you believe in sinless perfectionism? What what's the what is the reason? From my perspective We cannot avoid sinning as christians.

Primarily because not only the presence of abiding sin in us but There are sins that we commit out of ignorance. We are not yet fully sanctified we are still growing in the grace and knowledge of the lord jesus christ and when You are ignorant you sin.

You don't know which direction to go. And so you put yourself in foolish situations and and Amazingly, how many times have we learned? Through an experience of sin and god man, I'll never forget that again and then Only months later we find ourselves in the same situation going.

I thought I had learned this lesson well, I guess you didn't learn this lesson, but Really the the question is now being being asked well Can you not sin? Is raising the issue of sinless perfectionism and whether as a christian.

Now I would hope I would really hope that we would actually be agreed that for the unregenerate man. There is no possible way for them to be sinless to choose to be sinless. But this is again where the the Categories are being somewhat ignored in the conversation.

Is are we talking about christians? We're talking about regenerate people. Are we talking about unregenerate people? I'm assuming you've got two regenerate people talking to each other and therefore that's the category but unfortunately what we're really talking about what started the conversation is what the natural man is capable or incapable of doing and now it's moved on to the Spiritual man.

And that's that's an issue and i've still got like a minute left here and it's already.

4 30. I can't believe this. Okay, brian. Do you have to commit adultery today? Brian do you have to commit adultery today? Are you able not to brian? Do you have to commit adultery today? Or can you say no to it?

I am asking you are you brian answer my question here. You're being incredibly evasive. I'm, really trying to give you time here. Do you can you choose to commit adultery or not to commit adultery today?

I will sin although I don't. All right. All right. All right. All right, brian.

And brian gave you extra time even though we got a bunch of people. If you can't answer my simple question. Then there's a problem. You are imposing theology on scripture instead of letting the whole bible speak for itself.

And i'll just say this to you in love You can choose to obey god today or disobey doesn't mean you'll be perfect.

You can choose to get off the why why doesn't it mean you'd be perfect? I mean if it's all just us. And again, this has nothing to do with the original point. Because you're talking about christians here.

And the christian capacity to choose is different. Than the unregenerate man. I hope we believe that. Those who according to flesh cannot do what is pleasing to god. They cannot submit themselves to the law of god.

That is a direct teaching. I mean you have to come up with. I suppose there's some you know super hyper Uh dispensationalist way of getting around that I I guess I don't know. I mean, actually I can't even figure out how that would work.

I mean, it's a direct statement. It's a direct didactic teaching that we have to take seriously and.

I don't know. Let's finish it and seek the face of god in prayer. You can choose to share the gospel with someone. You can choose god forbid to download pornography. It's your choice. No one is making you do it.

We have died to sin. We are overcomers. We don't have to live in it. We are in this world and we will not be perfect. But if if god says don't commit adultery you're telling me you have to god says don't murder.

You're telling me you have to you have no control over that. I don't think you believe that.

Um, no, he would he would not see say either one of those things. Actually i'm not sure if what. He if what michael is saying here is there's there's no Sovereign decree of god because again that takes us back to the subject of our debate and I asked the question.

All right. What happens when a christian does commit adultery? What happens in that situation? Did god know what's going to happen? If god knew it was going to happen could it not happen? I mean here we go again.

And I think sometimes michael says, ah, you're just getting into philosophical. No, i'm not. Because there are so many times when god in the scriptures speaks about the evil of men. And his use of that and in fact his ordaining of it.

And if god didn't ordain it then it has no purpose then it. It just raises all sorts of. That's why I say i'm sorry. I will say it again. The only consistent arminian is an open theist. The only consistent arminian is an open theist.

Uh, it just seems very very clear to me. So there was brian's call. Uh, and I I I wonder if if this selects this. No, it doesn't. Uh cursor. Yeah, no. 37 27 to 39 17. I'm trying to figure out.

Uh.

If I could see really quickly. How uh. Yeah, I I guess I can do it this way. Let me.

Stop.

Let me let me see if I can uh do it this way. Okay, yeah this this way this this way I can sort of see how long the call actually was. It was approximately within.

Uh.

About. Wow, that that can't be that long. That can't be that long. I maybe maybe that's why it took me so long to get through it. Is this this actually looks like it's saying? It was approximately. Yeah, 26 39 to 30.

Yeah, well, there was a break in there, wasn't there? Yeah, there was there was a break in there. So if I take that out, it was about 10 minutes long. It was about 10 minutes long. That is a long time.

That is a long time. No, no question about it. Uh, maybe that's why it took so long to get through it. But now I have other stuff queued up here. Um, For example the issue of how well, let's play one more and then we're going to switch topics.

In fact, I'll tell you what.

Uh.

If if you I'd like to open the phones at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one is uh is the phone number if you would like to Uh call in and toward, you know, we'll take the last part of the program here.

If you would like to call in if you've got some topics you want to get to uh, but Uh, I did want to play one other little section here and there's there's much more in fact to be honest with you. It's the latter part of the program that I thought brought up some of the most interesting issues.

And so we will we'll get to it eventually, um over time Uh, but I just raised the issue of knowledge of the future and uh Here is is something that came right after Uh that uh that call from brian and on calvinism real quick.

If you hear the problem with calvinism, right. They confuse Free will with predestination, right? They don't they. They try to put god in the realm of human beings. To try to put god within time. Like I give an example, right.

Say I pour a glass of milk, right? I made a choice to pick up that glass and drink from that milk, right? But god already knew what I was going to do before I did it. Now that god forced me to take that.

Not to drink from it or did I make the choice to do it? See god's knowledge and his will are two different things.

See now, yeah, yeah christopher just to just to jump in because we have a break here. Obviously my calvinist friends would say that absolute foreknowledge requires predestination and christopher I don't believe that that's the case biblically or even philosophically, but thank you sir for the call back with more of your call.

Now. Uh, okay, I know that michael doesn't believe that but our whole debate was about why not what's. How how do you make this work? I mean, are you just gonna say well, we don't know but I just I won't accept that.

I mean again, it seems pretty clear to me that In numerous texts in the scriptures god functions upon The foundation that not only does he know the future But that he is actively involved in the shaping of that future.

I mean, what about cyrus? What about nebuchadnezzar? What about joseph's brothers? What about the cross? I mean, there are just so many examples of this. And the caller who was of course an anti-calvinist and very confused obviously.

Uh, so they want to put they might put god in the realm of men and things like that. No, uh, that's not the case. I want to put him in time. Uh, just the opposite. We want to say that god's sovereignty actually determines the very form of time itself.