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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a very warm Thursday afternoon here in Phoenix, Arizona Summer has definitely arrived.

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It doesn't feel really bad here The thermometer outside of my window has read a fairly consistent 112 and above all all afternoon, but it's nice and dry right now

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The monsoon hasn't started and I love how they have now decided to arbitrarily begin the monsoon on June 15th.

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Why? The there's no moisture in June 15th there. What? What I don't get that they used to remember what the the rule used to be was if you had

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Dew point of 55 degrees and above for three days in a row. That was the beginning of the monsoon

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So that was actually an observable thing now, they've just decided you know, what's that's too hard. Let's just say it starts

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June 15th Well, it doesn't start June 15th. I it's like changing clocks. It doesn't I'm sorry.

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It doesn't make any sense I usually thought it would be around July or August. It's just normally the second week of July.

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I'm in the second week of July that's that's what I remember and I I refuse to give in to political correctness and to Everything else and I know the government is recording every word that I say now.

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We all know that Whether you're with Verizon, it doesn't matter. I heard somebody today saying well

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I'm gonna have to switch from Verizon because I want the government knowing what I'm doing Do you really think they skipped

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AT &T or T -Mobile? I just wanted to go. Oh Wow and it's just like Read 1984 folks that they're using it as a playbook for crying out loud.

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It is amazing But anyhow, that is neither here nor there. Welcome to the dividing line on a hot

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Thursday Maybe the excessive heat causes us to address such issues. I do not know

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Before we dive into things a couple things. I want to say I want to point out Tony Costa informed me last week that Nielsen Bullock the

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Wonderful Christian man who moderated the debate not very long ago in the mosque in Toronto between myself and Shabir Ali passed away just a few weeks ago and That was that was a shame to hear he had actually just written to me in March Had sent me an email and passed away in May hadn't mentioned his sickness at that time, but certainly remember his wife and family and and very thankful for his

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Very compassionate heart he had a very strong burden to reach out to the

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Muslims in the Toronto area and we certainly are thankful for his testimony to the the grace of Christ and in his life and so we we remember that and Also, please keep in prayer our trips coming up We will have a program next

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Tuesday, but there will not be a program on Thursday because I will be going to Boston I will be speaking just outside of Boston over the weekend and then flying

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To Berlin where I will be a teaching for the Evangelical Biblical Training Center. There will be doing a textual criticism class

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Week from Friday. I'll be doing a cults and false religions marathon. That's the only way to describe it

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From like 8 in the morning to like 9 at night I think all recorded it's like 540 minutes 6 hour 9 hours 9 hours and that'll be in translation.

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So Speaking for 9 hours in one day where you have to stop every sentence or halfway through a sentence or not use complex sentences will result in a quivering mass of Brain dead humanity by the end of that day

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I assure you and I'm really not sure what the schedule is going to be the days before that so prayers for Strength for that, but also just a reminder.

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We have two banner ads up on the website But sometimes people get used to what's on the website But we are still seeking to raise the necessary funds for the trip to Germany and of course then in October The trip via London to Johannesburg, South Africa where we will be doing debates

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We are going to try to arrange a debate in London on Roman Catholicism on my way down and then in In South Africa a number of debates with Yusuf Ismail and Adnan Rashid As well as a number of lectures down there.

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I've been told by the folks and I just want to really strongly commend

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The folks in South Africa who are working with us here Simon Brace got us in touch with with people down there in South Africa and man

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They have just to use a a colloquialism has taken the bull by the horns

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I mean very quickly. I had a tentative schedule and people contacting other people. I mean just really a

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Tremendous amount of effort that was immediately thrown into it And and I've been told that they've had to turn down about 80 % of the requests that they've had

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For me to speak I could be down there for weeks If I wanted to and I wish and I wish

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I could on one level I mean I get homesick pretty quick, and I'm really more of a homebody than anything else

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But I sort of have an expiration date when it comes to traveling after about 12 days I I don't start smelling like spoiled milk.

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I just look like I've been drinking it. That's what that way. I just Generally don't handle that kind of Extended time away overly well

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So there's really no reason for people to have me someplace so I'm gonna get sick ask the folks who brought me to London the first time in 2005 and I Got sick as a dog boy.

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That was lots of fun and Anyway, those are very expensive flights, and we still are raising funds, so if you would like to help me to get to Germany London and Johannesburg South Africa Unlike the bigger ministries we don't have big folks that just drop big bucks on us.

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It's just never been that way probably never will be that way and So if you can help us we really do need to raise those funds as the time is drawing near So if you can help us, please please click on those banner ads on the website and to help us to raise those funds to get to Germany London and South Africa, which is pretty much around the world when you think about it.

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We even thought about coming back through Australia Which would have made it through around the whole world. It's about the same distance

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But that didn't work out But maybe someday because I'm hoping my hope is that this first trip to South Africa will then open up other opportunities for future ministry there as well and maybe the way to do that would be to you know,

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I want to get back down under and There are some people there again a Roman Catholic apologist and of course

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Abdullah Kunduz down there Arrange some more debates there and then I could probably fly from from Sydney or Brisbane either one to South Africa and We could make it a world a world tour that way who knows well, we will see but anyhow,

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I just wanted to remind you of that that we continue to need to Raise those those funds now last time on the program.

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We were listening to Brian's call which is different than Brian's song Differentiate that for those of you

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Who remember that particular? He made a movie reference. Yeah, sort of but Brian's song was

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Wow, that was like 19. What 70 something. I just remember they had long sideburns.

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So it was it was probably a long time ago but We were listening to Brian's call and Brian called in on on Calvinist call -in day on Michael Brown's line of fire and so we have been responding to Michael Brown's comments and I thought

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I my plan last time was just to play Brian's call and Then try to comment. There's just too much and so I started commenting as it was playing

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Which means I didn't even get well, I'm looking at here on the screen. It's one of the things I love about audio note -taker is

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I have Brian's call all Colored it's it's green on my screen. And so I can see

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Relatively how long it is in comparison to other things and we got just I'd say about 55 % of the way through it

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So we've still got a little bit to go but we have been responding to what Michael Brown said to Brian I've tried to explain

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What Brian was trying to say? And one of my concerns is that we have been hearing a confusion of categories on Michael's part

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Where he's mixing the capacities and abilities of the unregenerate man With those of the regenerate man and clearly a person who is a rebel sinner to God Who has a heart of stone who is a slave is?

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Going to have a different set of abilities and capacities than the the regenerate man who has been freed from Slavery to sin and so on and so forth.

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And so we we hear some of the confusion and and that will Come out especially

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I think toward the end of the call which will probably be getting to here But let's go ahead and pick back up with Brian's call

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To Michael Brown that call for a human choice. Why does God say humble yourself if you can't just please tell me why

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I Think that's pretty much where we stopped last time. I I made the comment at that point in time that again

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Michael says, you know for a certain number of years. I was a staunch Calvinist. Okay, any staunch

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Calvinist knows the answer to that question and so I would expect that what

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Michael should say is well, I once recognized that God uses means and I once recognized that God gives commands and that those commands are going to be received by the unregenerate person and God has purposes for those commands and regenerate purpose a person and that it's going to be different for the regenerate person because clearly the regenerate person has a law written upon his heart and When you hear the command of God to hate your sin to humble yourself to be obedient to submit yourself to your

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Creator all these Wonderful aspects of what God's law says to us there is a vast difference in how the unregenerate respond to those and The regenerate respond to those in fact,

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I would even make further distinction and these are distinctions that Michael I would be very surprised if he didn't Agree with me on for example,

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I have seen the law of God brought to bear Upon people and it has absolutely driven them to the lengths of insane

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Expression of hatred for God and I bet you Michael has seen that I bet you Michael has seen that from homosexuals

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Who have been absolutely in themselves given over in their love for this sin so that any reference whatsoever to its sinfulness or on the other side the positive aspects of God's revelation regards to heterosexuality in Regards to Jesus's teaching about marriage.

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Oh, they just respond with an anger and a hatred that is absolutely self -consuming and yet and yet We would both have to recognize that that same positive law that speaks of the goodness of the

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God -ordained relationship of man male and female along with the negative aspect that law that identifies homosexuality as sin is

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Used by God as a means to bring about the repentance of homosexual people

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But that is always within the context of regeneration Such were some of you but you were washed you were cleansed you were justified 1st

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Corinthians chapter 6 verses 9 through 11 and so there you have

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Two kinds of the use of the law one God can use to actually increase the the the guilt and judgment upon someone

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On regenerate person and yet and another person's life He uses it as the means by which he brings them to repentance and then of course in the

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Christians life we hear that law we hear those commands and we rejoice in them and they give us guidance and we learn more and more about the character of our

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God because of his self -revelation and So again the problem

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I have with with Michael's argument is well if God says love me perfectly then every single person must have the capacity as Fallen sons and daughters of Adam to love

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God perfectly that that do

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Assumes capacity Command to do assumes capacity That's not the case that is not the case and so as a former

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Calvinist Michael should know How we understand those positive commands and that we do not accept the idea that if God commands you do it

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That means you are capable of doing it in and of yourself Now if he's gonna say well, okay.

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Yeah, we can't do it except for this prevenient grace Well again, if you're gonna define prevenient grace, and it'd be nice to hear a definition of what it is biblically exegetically a

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Grace that brings you to a neutral position and enables you to do something but doesn't actually accomplish

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Anything it's just an enablement Um, well, that's obviously where we have a major problem at that point because none of the discussions in Scripture regarding stone hearts and valleys dry bones and dead people in tombs or Incapacity due to slavery to sin and all the rest this kind of type of stuff

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None of None of those discussions ever mentioned prevenient grace or anything even near to prevenient grace

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Because the same way that Adam fell Adam could have followed God perfectly Okay, and he didn't he fell each and every one of us who was responsible

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I think this is a real simple question Brian you came you called real strong charges

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Okay that everyone who believes as I do has pride that somehow we are better than someone else

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Which that's not what Brian said, I'm sorry. I think Michael got a little upset here He you know

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Michael will say things against Calvinism will say and I'm not talking about everyone. Well, Brian didn't say everyone he did say that in his experience if God's trying to save everybody equally and he figured it out and somebody else didn't then that makes him better than somebody else and That logically that would lead to that.

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He didn't say oh, I'm sure you were this way, too But he what he was saying is if God is trying to save every single person equally and I'm saved and somebody else isn't the only difference between us is not that five -letter word grace.

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It's the two -letter word me Because that's the only differentiation you can make Which is again utterly bizarre and contra description, but a simple question

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Why does God command us to humble ourselves and hold us accountable for whether we do or don't if we can a real simple question

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It's it's not a real simple question. I'm sorry. It's not a It's not a yes -or -no situation that's why

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I rarely call into programs because I I know that if the person behind the microphone wants to control the conversation and control the answers you can and and that's what's going on here to be honest with you is

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You're putting the caller in a position probably because You don't like what he's he said

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But you're putting the caller in a position to give a yes -or -no answer to a question that isn't a yes -or -no question and If you say well, you know you

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Calvinists don't have yes -or -no questions. Well, I suppose we do but you know

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Recognizing that God's Commandments are Responded to by different people do their spiritual natures in different ways which violates the yes -and -no

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Black and white categories Does anyone really argue that's not the case?

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Can anyone really argue that that's not the case? I I don't think so because God has his standard that we have to follow and no one can do it

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We then why okay Brian. Why are you okay Brian? What is your name Brian? Did you have a choice to say yes or no to that?

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Could you have made up another name? Um Clear category error. Sorry. This is a clear category error, and I think you're gonna see that Okay, so you just made a choice

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We make choices every day Okay, when God says humble yourself wait here.

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God says to Israel choose Life I said before your life and death choose life now again

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Calvinist recognize we make choices every day No one's denying that we do not make choices the choices we make however are going to be determined by our nature

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Unregenerate men Make choices God in his common grace

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Keeps men from being as evil as they could be he restrains evil but To do what is good

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Romans chapter 8 says those who are according to the flesh can not do that Who do none time?

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It's straightforward. I Mean, I guess we could respond with a yes or no question

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Michael Yes, or no, can those who are according to the flesh do what is pleasing to God?

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and If he starts talking about prevenient grace, no, no, no, it's a simple question. Yes or no.

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See anybody can do that Anybody can do that. That's that's that's just not fair and this question

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Has to make a distinction You know, he just asked Brian. What's your name? You made a choice to give your name

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Well, Brian's a Christian So if we're gonna if we're gonna pursue this we're gonna have to pursue only what are the abilities capacities of the regenerate person?

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But that's gonna end up getting mixed in with What are the abilities and capacities of the unregenerate person?

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And that's the problem when Joshua says to the people of Israel choose this day who you're gonna serve as for me in my house

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We're gonna serve the Lord. God does not rebuke him and say you're proud. You're a Pelagian. You're as full of self -will

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No, no, that is commendable Of course is commendable, but I would assume that Joshua is now again

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Guess we'd have to ask a question. Why is Joshua a follower of God? Is it because God tried to save everybody equally and Joshua was just good enough to do that or?

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Was there a specific I mean, honestly is is is

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Joshua a follower of God and the the Amorites across the border

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Who Joshua wipes out? Are they the recipients of the same?

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Extension of God's grace and God's Spirit as Joshua was so that They're each equal that Amorite high priest had just as much light just as much knowledge just as much grace prevenient grace the whole nine yards and Joshua was just more sensitive and therefore made the right choice and they could have done the same thing because by prevenient grace all that Child sacrifice that they hadn't been given over What does it mean that their their their transgressions were not yet full their iniquity was not yet full

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What does that mean? And these are some of the questions we would have to ask and to be honest with you They cannot be answered in a yes -and -no fashion.

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Can they know they require something more than that? God says to Brian choose whether you will receive my son and be saved or reject him.

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Yes He makes that that's called the general call But certainly from a new

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Testament perspective you cannot help but recognize there is a difference between the general call of the gospel that goes out to all men and The specific call the

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Spirit of God Because if you if you if you say that then you're stuck with the golden chain of redemption

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Why because all who are called are justified Okay, that can't be so there is an effective call and that's the effective call that calls the remnant

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That's why God could say I have reserved for myself the remnant So why does he say to Israel?

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Why is he say I've held out my hands? It's a demonstration of the fact that outside of his grace there is no one who will come that he is just to condemn those who are in their sin and That those who do

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It's not because there's something better about them It all resounds to his glory and to his grace a demonstration of his holiness.

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It's all about him. Not about us That's that's the issue it is a choice you make as many as Received him to them.

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He gave power to become the sons of God. He saves we choose to refuse or to Submit so the question again, if he saves or he tries to save is he trying to save everyone?

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If he's trying to save everyone equally and I then enable him to save me by my choice

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Because again if it's if it is this equal effort That it's God's intention to try to save every single person equally that there's no election.

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There's there's no elect It's not just well, God knows there's gonna be somebody who's saved and somebody who isn't no is

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God Intending trying to save person X and person Y absolutely equally and the only difference between them is internal to them their choice

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That's a big issue Major issue especially is how we define Not only

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God's sovereignty God's purpose, but also God's grace you do not have the power to humble yourself This is really easy

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If you do not have the power to humble yourself Why does God command you to do it and hold you responsible for doing it?

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That assumes once again, and okay, I've already covered this but let me just say it one more time The error of this assumption is that there is a command

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But that means we in and of ourselves Possess the capacity to fulfill it

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Now Adam did but Adam fell we are now the fallen sons and daughters of Adam and We now stand before a holy law that condemns us in our incapacity to fulfill it

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God then uses it not only to curb the evil of men, but in some instances to exacerbate it as Paul talks about that covetous that command do not covet

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But he coveted but then when the Spirit comes the gospel comes that law is brought to bear guilt

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Relieve through fleeing to Christ Uses that in the act of regeneration Drawing his elect people into himself and then in the life of the believer teaching guiding directing

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Instructing us as to what the will of God is We see all of this in Scripture, you know, I could do the look at all the dozens of passages thing here

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But I try to give specific examples rather than doing that. I believe we are responsible

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Okay And I also believe that none of us are able because we are falling in Adam Then why does he tell you to do what you can't do that is that is completely contrary to his justice and to his goodness

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It makes a mockery. It does not make a mockery and we can show so many examples of this.

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I mean How many? Well, I already have I've given so many examples, it's just I'm sorry, this is this is a

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Obviously from my from my from Michael's perspective. I have a blind spot. Obviously my perspective

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Michael has a blind spot and here it is and and the reason I don't understand the blind spot is if you claim it's one thing if you've never been reformed to Have a blind spot here and just not understand.

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Well, this is this is just a basic element of reformed theology But to be hammering on Well, if God tells us to do it we all must have the capacity to do it

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Really to me makes me go I I don't think you've ever really understood a reformed soteriology and a reformed anthropology at this point

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Because you wouldn't be asking this question in this way It's it's like me telling a handicapped person to run the marathon and holding them responsible when they don't

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Okay, the Handicapped person are we talking here about a

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Christian or a non -christian? Are we talking about a regenerate person or an unregenerate person? does the

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Unregenerate person does the unregenerate person have the ability to bring about their own spiritual reformation and Sounds like Michael is saying yes because of prevenient grace and we are saying no and there is no such thing as prevenient grace

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So I'm gonna try as best I can to to finish this call now, I'm gonna I'm gonna try

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I'm gonna try Yes, and he gives us the and he gives us power to overcome Are you able not to think mm -hmm

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I may choose to sin, but I don't have to okay I was gonna try to get through but this is an important point.

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I may choose to sin, but I do not have to Okay Sin is of different kinds.

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There is a sin of commission. There is a sin of omission There are sins that are based upon our ignorance

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The question then is does this open the door? to the concept of Sinless perfectionism now,

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I I don't believe that Michael believes in sinless perfectionism. At least I would hope not But the question would be if you don't believe in Sinless perfectionism

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Why don't you believe in sinless perfectionism? What what's the what is the reason from my perspective?

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We cannot avoid sinning as Christians Primarily because not only the presence of abiding sin in us but There are sins that we commit out of ignorance

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We are not yet fully sanctified. We are still growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and when you are ignorant you sin

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You don't know which direction to go and so you put yourself in foolish situations and and Amazingly how many times have we learned?

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Through an experience of sin and God man, I never forget that again and then only months later

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We find ourselves in the same situation going. I thought I had learned this lesson well, I guess you didn't learn this lesson, but Really the the question is now being being asked.

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Well, can you not sin is Raising the issue of sinless perfectionism and whether as a

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Christian Now I would hope I would really hope that we would actually be agreed that for the unregenerate man

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There is no possible way for them to be sinless to choose to be sinless But this is again where the

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Categories are being somewhat ignored in the conversation is are we talking about Christians?

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We're talking about regenerate people Are we talking about unregenerate people? I'm assuming you've got two regenerate people talking to each other and therefore that's the category but unfortunately, what we're really talking about what started the conversation is what the natural man is capable or incapable of doing and now it's moved on to the

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Spiritual man and That's that's an issue and I've still got like a minute left here and it's already 430.

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I can't believe this. Okay, Brian Do you have to commit adultery today? Brian do you have to commit adultery today?

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Brian do you have to commit adultery today, or can you say no to it? Brian answer my question here.

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You're being incredibly evasive. I'm really trying to give you time Do you can you choose to commit adultery or not to commit adultery today?

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I will although I don't know. All right. All right. All right, Brian and Brian gave you extra time

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Even though we got a bunch of people if you can't answer my simple question Then there's a problem you are imposing theology on Scripture instead of letting the whole

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Bible speak for itself And I'll just say this to you in love You can choose to obey

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God today or disobey doesn't mean you'll be perfect You can choose to get off the what why why doesn't it mean you'd be perfect.

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I mean if it's all just us and Again this has nothing to do with the original point because you're talking about Christians here and The Christian capacity to choose is different than the unregenerate man.

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I hope we believe that Those who are according to flesh cannot do what is pleasing to God.

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They cannot submit themselves the law of God That is a direct teaching. I Mean you have to come up with I suppose.

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There's some you know super hyper Dispensationalist way of getting around that I I guess

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I don't know. I mean, actually I'm kidding figure out that would work I mean, it's a direct statement.

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It's a direct didactic teaching that we have to take seriously and Finish it and seek the face of God in prayer.

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You can choose to share the gospel someone you can choose God forbid to download pornography. It's your choice.

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No one is making you do it. We have died to sin We are overcomers. We don't have to live in it

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We are in this world and we will not be perfect But if God says don't commit adultery You're telling me you have to God says don't murder.

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You're telling me you have to you have no control over that I don't think you believe that No, he would he would not see say either one of those things.

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Actually. I'm not sure if what He if what Michael is saying here is there's there's no

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Sovereign decree of God because again that takes us back to the subject of our debate and I asked the question All right, what happens when a

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Christian does commit adultery what happens in that situation did

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God know what's gonna happen If God knew it was gonna happen. Could it not happen? I mean here we go again

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And I think sometimes Michael says I you're just getting into philosophical no, I'm not because there are so many times when

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God in the scriptures speaks about the evil of men and His use of that and in fact his ordaining of it

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And if God didn't ordain it then it has no purpose then it it just raises all sorts of that's why

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I say I'm sorry. I will say it again The only consistent Arminian is an open theist.

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The only consistent Arminian is an open theist It just seems very very clear to me so there was

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Brian's call And I I wonder if this selects this

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No, it doesn't cursor. Yeah, no 37 27 to 39 17.

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I'm trying to figure out If I could see really quickly how

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Yeah, I guess I can do it this way. Let me ah Stop, let me let me see if I can do it this way

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Yeah, this this what this this way I can sort of see how long the call actually was it was approximately within About Wow, that can't be that long.

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I Can't be that long. Maybe maybe that's why it took me so long to get through it Is this this actually looks like it's saying it was approximately.

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Yeah, 26 39 to 3 Yeah, well, there was a break in there, wasn't it? Yeah, there was there was a break in there

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So if I take that out, it was about 10 minutes long. It was about 10 minutes long That is a long time. That is a long time.

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No question about it Maybe that's why it took so long to get through it. But now I have other stuff queued up here

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For example the issue of how well, let's play one more and then we're gonna switch topics. In fact, I'll tell you what

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If you I'd like to open the phones at eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one eight seven seven

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Seven five three three three four one is is the phone number if you would like to Call in and toward, you know

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We'll take the last part of the program here if you would like to call in if you've got some topics you want to get to but I did want to play one of the little section here and there's there's much more in fact to be honest with you

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It's the latter part of the program that I thought brought up some of the most interesting issues

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And so we will we'll get to it eventually over time but I just raised the issue of knowledge of the future and Here is something that came right after That's that call from Brian.

35:09

You know on Calvinism real quick. Yeah, if you hit the problem with Calvinism, right? They confuse free will with predestination, right?

35:15

They don't they try to put God in the realm of human beings to try to put God within time I'll give you an example right say

35:21

I pour a glass of milk, right? I made a choice to pick up that glass and drink from that milk, right? But God already knew what

35:27

I was gonna do before I did it now that God forced me to take that Not to drink from it or that I make the choice to do it See God's knowledge and his will are two different things

35:34

See now you Christopher just to just to jump in because we have a break here Obviously my Calvinist friends would say that absolute foreknowledge requires predestination and Christopher I don't believe that that's the case biblically or even philosophically, but thank you, sir for the call back with more of your call now

35:52

Okay, I know that Michael doesn't believe that but our whole debate was about why not what's how?

35:59

How do you make this work? I mean, are you just gonna say well, we don't know but I just I won't accept that. I Mean again, it seems pretty clear to me that in numerous texts in the scriptures

36:12

God functions upon The foundation that not only does he know the future

36:18

But that he is actively involved in the shaping of that future. I Mean, what about Cyrus?

36:25

What about Nebuchadnezzar? What about Joseph's brothers? What about the cross? I mean, there are just so many examples of this and The caller who was of course an anti Calvinist and very confused obviously

36:39

So they want to put God in the realm of men and things like that. No, that's not the case.

36:46

I want to put him in time just the opposite We want to say that God's sovereignty actually determines the very form of time itself

36:56

But be that as it may It's one thing to say Well, I think that's not philosophically necessary.

37:04

I don't think that's You know biblically necessary, but we've provided numerous examples thereof

37:10

We've provided many examples of where God has been actively involved in that very thing of man's free choices holding men accountable

37:22

Isaiah chapter 10 I Would love to see Michael's commentary on Isaiah chapter 10. I really would

37:30

That would be That'd be really really interesting I'd like to see that but again the debate we did went into that and I think we provided a fairly strong argument for the

37:44

The fact that God has that type of not only eternal knowledge, but that it is based upon his divine decree

37:52

And that it is not merely God taking into Into his knowledge that which we creatures somehow provide to him by our actions,

38:04

I mean There are Many men have have thought many men have have worked on this particular subject down through the the ages

38:14

Doesn't mean that we don't have to deal with these issues. We we really really do eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number for you to call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and some people have started to do exactly that and one of those is

38:34

Down under in Australia where it must be an absurd time of the morning.

38:39

I think let's talk with David. Hi David Hi. Hi. How are you? Good. Thanks.

38:46

What can I do for you? But oh, sorry, dr. What? Yes I have a question about the translation of a

38:52

Zion 9 6 in Is that the same as Isaiah 9 6 Yes The joke there right it's a joke as a little bit of an accent is your

39:03

Isaiah, you know, it's I'm just want to make sure we're talking about the same prophet here, you know Yes, sorry

39:11

When I present this verse to someone like a Jehovah's Witness to show the divinity of Christ They see it and go.

39:18

Okay, but doesn't that show because it says eternal father in reference to Christ That is showing that he is the father and therefore has a modalistic sort of view and I know that there are

39:29

Two translations out there that rendered the father of eternity But I'm just wondering if that's the real great explanation of this

39:38

Eternal father title. Why is it that no mainstream Bible sort of translated as the father of eternity?

39:47

Excuse me. Well Bible translations

39:54

Tend to be conservative. Oh People in the channel stop with the accent thing.

40:00

It was a very good Australian accent See he immediately knew what I was doing because I was speaking his language

40:06

I'm just telling people in the channel to let me let me speak to you in your language so that you feel comfortable and And all that kind of stuff.

40:12

I'm sorry. Anyways, I actually suggest That aviad be translated as father of eternity in the

40:19

Forgotten Trinity But Bible translations tend to be rather conservative and It's not it's really not an issue of translation

40:28

It's an issue of interpretation and the fact of the matter is that the roles of Father Son and Holy Spirit are primarily

40:34

Well, they are revealed in the incarnation and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So that's between the Testaments Father in the

40:40

Old Testament is almost always in reference to God as creator Israel refers to God as father in the sense that God created them

40:49

And and gave them a special position and so When you look at the descriptions that are used of this this one

40:57

El Gabor Mighty God is used of Jehovah in Isaiah 1021 the very next chapter that very same language is used of God and so when you come to Aviad the question would be how would that have been understood in in Hebrew and in the mind of of Those who would have heard the prophecy of Isaiah And it would not have been understood in a father -son

41:22

Holy Spirit distinction, which we get from the New Testament But it would have been understood In the very same way that we see

41:28

Jesus described in Colossians chapter 1 for by him are all things created rather than heaven and earth Visible invisible principalities powers and means stories all things created by him for him

41:37

He is before all things in him all for all things whole together I mean, that's a beautiful description of Aviad because father has to do with creator sustainer one who makes one who forms and so the very former of eternity

41:51

Is described in those descriptions of Jesus and Colossians 1 John chapter 1 Hebrews chapter 1 interestingly enough all those prologue texts they're describing the creator creative role of Jesus and So I I think that's that fits very very perfectly

42:07

And so when someone raises that objection I go no wait a minute You're you're bringing categories into Isaiah that Isaiah himself does not have the category that Isaiah is dealing with is the exalted nature of this one that he's prophesying about and Rather than putting in categories of father -son

42:24

Holy Spirit. You need to be seeing them as categories of descriptive of Christ So he is mighty God. He is father of eternity.

42:31

He is Prince of Peace the very terminology that's used of The result of Jesus's work in Romans 5 1 therefore you have peace with God all of these flow very very

42:42

Well together and so I think it's just missing the the point and reading a category into the

42:48

Old Testament That's not there in the first place Okay Does that help? Thank you very much for helping me out with that question.

42:55

Do you have the Forgotten Trinity? Yes, I do. Okay, if you if you look up that text

43:01

You'll see that it's probably in a footnote if I recall correctly Almost all my good stuff is but if you look at the end note,

43:07

I go through aviad and And lay some of that stuff out there All right I'll read that and I just heard you say the beginning of your program today that you might be coming to Australia another time

43:17

Soon. Well, I really I really do want to try to do that I've there I've got unfinished business shall we say as far as folks

43:25

I'd like to debate and you bet I want to Probably it's going to be 2014, but I would like to start trying to work toward getting that arranged.

43:33

Yeah All right, great. If you do come, can you somehow let us know an itinerary that I'll be able to see what churches

43:40

You'll be going to in what areas to see if I could tag along to some of them I found out last time that you're in Australia the day you were doing your debate at the

43:49

University of Technology and I Couldn't get on to a I couldn't find out what you're gonna be after that and you're here and I was trying to track you down, but well sometimes

43:58

Sometimes that's that's just due to the fact that we've got to deal with folks there locally and some things are only arranged right toward The end, but we normally do try to do that.

44:05

So yeah, we'll do our best. Appreciate it. Thank you, James Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Lots of calls all of a sudden here

44:11

I'm definitely not going to get to I didn't expect this many calls. But all right, let's dive in and try to get through them

44:17

Let's talk to Wendy. Hi Wendy Is this Wendy in windy,

44:23

Florida right now, yes Are you are you getting some of the rain from the tropical storm?

44:30

Not yet, okay, I think they'll be coming in maybe tonight or tomorrow All right batten down the hatches.

44:37

It's only 112 here. So it's a little different. Yeah My question is in regards to Mormonism my in -laws are

44:48

Mormons and I didn't know much about it when I got married until after and Josh he loved that feed when he was 18

45:00

In witnessing to a any Mormon but witnessing to a relative is that um, how do

45:08

I um Any advice and how to take this on with my in -laws

45:14

I really My father -in -law is kind of difficult. He once told me when we were newlyweds

45:21

That he wants me to know they feel Josh whatever that means Well, I don't know but I didn't at that time and it's

45:30

My husband said if I would have sent a book like one of your books, you know He might just take it and throw it in the trash

45:38

They seem really nice. It's just You know, it's not it's a rocky relationship. Yeah and um, well

45:48

Okay Okay Yeah, well there's a on our website if you go to the articles page there's a there's a lengthy article that I wrote many many years ago called the hundred verse memorization system it is a

46:09

Hundred verses that if at the very least if you don't memorize all of them at least going through the background information

46:16

I Provide on them as to why they're relevant to Mormonism is a training course in and of itself and Letters to a

46:22

Mormon elder my book is meant to be given to Mormons But it's also meant to train

46:28

Christians in how to deal with each of these subject areas. So it actually goes in an order where it's it's the natural order that Conversations would go in starting with the testimony the foundation of scripture the big topics

46:49

Secondary topics, etc, etc. So so letters to a Mormon elder really is meant to be a both a witnessing tool as well as a training manual on witnessing to Mormons now the only thing that's changed in the goodness 20 some odd years since I wrote the book is

47:06

That Mormons in general have become even more subjective and less objective in their view of truth

47:15

Than than they were before but the theology certainly hasn't hasn't changed and so the subjects you'd be addressing

47:23

I really haven't changed and Probably you would have a better opportunity Wendy of speaking to her than to him just in my experience the vast majority

47:33

Especially of older Mormons, especially older Mormon men if they've grown up in the church tend to sort of have a very patriarchal or a man -centered view of these things and Hence you you might have just a huge mountain to climb

47:48

To try to get him to really consider seriously some of your

47:54

Some of your your your statements, but it can be a very long process It does not always have to be focused upon the

48:04

Specific issues of Mormonism. I have sent Mormons some of R .C. Sproul's books for example,

48:11

I would I would give almost anybody no matter what their religion a copy of R .C.

48:16

Sproul's the holiness of God, but especially a Mormon because the the God of Mormonism just is so different than the

48:25

Transcendent eternal God of Scripture that a book like The holiness of God by Sproul is a you know, it never mentions

48:34

Mormonism. It's not quote -unquote anti -mormon literature bla bla bla but It would probably be one of the most effective ways of opening someone's eyes to just the vast difference

48:47

Between the God of the Bible and the God of Joseph Smith Assuming she knows the

48:53

God of Joseph Smith. I mean, I don't know how well She knows Mormonism. I mean if she was she raised in it

49:00

Josh Said when he was little I think they converted into it.

49:06

Okay. Yeah, that's like yeah, you know I you're gonna need to find out just I Mean, I've met

49:13

Mormons that don't know a whole lot about Mormonism They they may attend but you could you could attend a a ward chapel

49:20

Faithfully, especially as a woman and still know very little about Mormon theology. You really could so After Josh and I got married,

49:30

I didn't even know what Mormonism was until uh, you know newlyweds and across the apartment

49:37

Christian was debating with a Mormon Missionary and then that's when

49:43

I first heard of it because Josh, you know, he just did not like the topic at all Right, and I'm from a different country.

49:50

I'm from Trinidad and Tobago. So I don't know. Maybe is there racism in there? there there was

49:58

There there certainly was officially. I mean the Mormon Church taught until 1978 that that black people if you had one drop of black blood you could not hold the priesthood

50:08

That was based on on Joseph Smith's teaching the Brigham Young's teaching that that the black race

50:18

Yeah, the Book of Mormon specifically said that The dark -skinned

50:23

Indian was that that was a curse from God for the Lamanites rebellion against God's truth.

50:28

So Yeah, there there is a long history of racism both in the Mormon scriptures in the

50:33

Mormon practice, which obviously they're Trying to get away from both by altering the

50:39

Book of Mormon as well as by granting the priesthood of the blacks and there's sort of burying and hoping that people won't read the sermons of the leadership in Salt Lake City in the

50:49

Journal of Discourses where they Actually laid out the reasons why the priesthood couldn't be given to blacks and things like that.

50:55

So Videos that way you also go in a bit of detail.

51:00

So I learned a lot about it I was you know, a lot of shock as well. I didn't know if I Was it would be okay to send my mother -in -law?

51:12

The video for her to look at but Which video are you talking about? I think you did one with the guy from England Renewed mine.

51:25

Oh Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, actually England The English are very upset with you now.

51:31

It's actually in Australia, but that's okay All the all the all the proper

51:37

English, okay, that's not English that's Australian but anyways But anyway

51:46

Yeah, maybe I mean that that that that video really wasn't That that video was that specific one was meant to educate

51:54

Christians on on Mormonism itself I really would highly recommend to you Letters to a

52:00

Mormon elder because I think you're gonna be the best person to talk with her over time

52:05

Don't don't get the idea. This has to be done tomorrow Frequently it is a long long process bringing a person out of Mormonism Relationship I've been hurt so much by my in -laws in which from APS I've been married now, and I've never called them by their first name

52:26

I've always called a mom and dad the very second culture that I have right and you know,

52:32

I have to give given them so many times but I the reason why

52:38

I choose and have that Extended love for them is because I know that they are blind to the truth and they're salvaged

52:46

They're still you know, at least I want to be able to Witness Josh and I just um,

52:54

I Don't know how about Go with them because you know It's the one thing when you're related and then you have to you know, see them maybe once a year or something

53:02

And right, right. Um, yeah Well, I definitely will ask you know, I can see that she's willing to listen and hear but I you know,

53:11

I I still um Gladys the Mormon book. Yes. I I would like to give her that one.

53:17

Yeah Well, I'd want to make sure you you have it first and that you would understand it

53:23

First and foremost and then maybe you'd be the one to be able to communicate that information to her over time

53:29

Yeah, it can obviously Be a situation that it could it would cause even more division but of course at the same time if there if the

53:39

Lord were to be merciful to One or more of those people it could create a tremendous

53:47

Bond and a lifelong friendship that would that would be awesome So that's obviously what we would want to pray for is that that that would be what would what would take place.

53:56

So yeah, get that and Let me know if you have any questions about what it says

54:04

Thank you, Wendy, all right get blessed. Bye -bye. All right. Let's I think we have just enough time to sneak in Kyle.

54:11

Hi Kyle Hello, yes, sir Oh, yeah, sorry

54:16

Cal here, haha, I pushed the wrong button I have a question here regarding and maybe you can help

54:23

Expound on one of the articles I came across It's on vintage .aomin

54:29

.org slash anti -theist Underscore answers one dot

54:34

HTML. It's answering common questions and objections. Okay Hello you there?

54:41

Yes, I'm here. Oh, sorry. I wasn't here if I lost you. Okay, so it the the

54:47

Statement that I'd like you to expound on Says first we are not being punished for Adam's sin instead.

54:55

We are living with the consequences of Adam's sin There is a big difference between them God does not punish someone else for Adam's sin and if someone thinks he does that person is mistaken

55:06

Okay, I need to I need to figure out what you're what you're reading here I did

55:11

I I know this is gonna disappoint a lot of folks, but I I do not memorize all the URLs on our website so What's the name what was the name of Yeah vintage .aomin

55:25

.org What's the name of the article what's at the top of the answer answering common questions and objections part one

55:35

Is it is it under a It's in their apologetics, yeah, and then general apologetics,

55:45

I think Yeah, I'm looking at general here Actually, if you go to go to the main page

55:53

Aomin org and just type in original sin and I believe it's the first article that comes up really

56:00

All right Right at the top search original sin and then it'll say

56:08

Because I need some kind of Of a context here. Yeah.

56:14

Okay. Yeah. All right. I got it Yeah, and the top part says why are people today being punished for Adam's sin?

56:21

Why do women endure pain and childbirth because of Eve's sin especially in latitude only 24 16 other references and then?

56:29

All right, I don't remember the context of this and I it looks like it looks like I'm actually responding to Some written document

56:45

I don't I don't think that I I If I'm recalling correctly and I and I I Haven't looked at this article and I don't know how long it's it was probably written in the 1980s at some point or um

57:03

Unfortunately, I just don't see Maybe this came from Dennis McKenzie Is it is a prior response

57:12

Dennis McKenzie, I I I don't recall but So there might be a context there

57:20

Yeah, it'd be good to give you a chance yeah, yeah,

57:25

I really really wouldn't want to try to delve into this I mean I yeah, I dealt with Yeah Because I see anti -theist here

57:34

So I would want to look at what if this is a part of the response to him Then I would

57:41

I would want to have the context of that This isn't these few paragraphs would not be my commentary on the subject of original sin, especially in light of especially in light of what

57:51

I said Just a few weeks ago when I was dealing with This booklet right here

57:59

Which is born guilty a Southern Baptist the original sin by Adam Harwood and I went through Romans chapter 5

58:07

Would be much more of a fuller discussion of of original sin then Then a response to Dennis McKenzie, which was normally kept very very very brief.

58:17

So Yeah, I don't know what else to say about about that I'd have to take a look at it and and who knows maybe

58:25

I'll I'll Try to find the time to to address it, okay, and I don't know if it's a

58:32

Simple question or not. Like maybe you could just give me a quick I Guess understanding of in in what way are we not?

58:41

accountable for Adam's sin If that makes yeah,

58:46

I'm sorry Okay, yeah Too big of a question for the end of the program.

58:54

Sorry Kyle We'll have to have to try to address it another point because the the music's playing. I appreciate your call

58:59

I'm gonna take a look at that and see if I can figure out what it's about but Sorry folks.

59:06

I'm sure you could find for a lot of folks things. They've written over 30 years There were 25 years ago.

59:12

That's like Sorry need a context on it But if you want what

59:18

I really say on the subject original sin see what I said just a few weeks ago on Romans chapter 5 and We will see you next

59:26

Tuesday. That will be the last one we do for a while because we're heading to Boston and Germany But we'll see you next Tuesday We need a new reformation day

59:49

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