April 23, 2021 Show with Dr. Conrad Mbewe on “God’s Design for the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 23rd day of April, 2021, and it certainly is, without exaggeration, a very happy Friday for me because after much hounding and chasing,

I finally have secured Dr. Conrad Mbewe to be my guest once again on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Dr. Mbewe has his PhD from the University of Pretoria.

He is the pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, founding chancellor, senior lecturer, and director of advancement and faculty at African Christian University, and author and contributor to many books.

And today we are going to be addressing one of his books, God's Design for the Church, and we're also going to be announcing the

G3 Conference 2021 where Dr. Mbewe will be on a very large roster of speakers, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend of many years,

Dr. Conrad Mbewe. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you. Yes, and it's hard to believe that it was over 25 years ago that we first met at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick when you were speaking for the very first time in the

United States. Yes, that was 1996. Oh, 96.

Okay. I remember that very well. Okay, that was a year off, but I so much fondly remember that.

I remember that we had you over a three -day period, a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, for a conference that weekend, and not including the members of our church.

We had over 500 visitors over those three days due to a very extensive ad campaign that we ran on the station where I used to work,

WMCA Radio, 570 AM, a Salem media affiliate, and we aired a very powerful clip of you preaching, and that had our phones ringing off the hook literally for a month, and then we had over 500 visitors.

What a phenomenal weekend that was, and it also was the beginning of a friendship that lasted all these years between you and I.

And I can remember, I forget, I think it was your wife, Felicity, who said, how come you've remained in contact with Chris Arnz in all these years and remained so close to him?

And I remember you just saying something like, I have no idea. By the way, she was asking about you as well while I've been here, so there you are, she still remembers you.

Oh, great, yeah, I remember she was actually helping me man my exhibitor's booth at the Deep South Founders Conference in Mississippi, Laurel, Mississippi.

I am going to just start off the interview to whet the appetite of our listeners, who hopefully, many of them will hopefully join me

September 30th through October 2nd at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, on the theme

Christ is Supreme Overall, where you will be one of over 20 speakers.

I'm so thrilled that you are there again. I think that you have preached at every one that I have been, where I've been in attendance.

I'm not 100 % sure of that, but I've been at four, although actually this fall will be my fourth.

But I want to play just a clip of a sermon by you at a previous

G3 Conference. If we are going to have courageous hearts, we need to meditate deeply on the

God who is. As long as we have an inherited religion that hasn't mesmerized our souls, that hasn't gripped us to the very depth of our beings, we will never be

Luthers in this generation, never. And therefore, brethren, we need to be those who meditate deeply.

That was just a little taste for our listeners, and we will be announcing all the information that you need throughout the program to register for G3 2021.

I don't know if it's too early to ask you this, but I know that the overall theme is

Christ is Supreme Overall. Do you have your own subtitle that you have been assigned to speak on, or have you chosen a subtitle or theme yet?

No, not as yet. We've just been informed of the overall theme of the conference, and we're still waiting.

Either I'll be asked for a topic, or I'll be assigned one. And many of our listeners may not realize, but you are a very dear friend of Vody Baucom, who was originally scheduled to be on the roster at the

G3 conference. In fact, I believe it was you who contacted Vody to invite him to co -labor with you in Zambia, Africa, which he has done.

He uprooted his entire family, his wife and children, and moved to Zambia, but is currently in the

United States because he is recovering from quadruple bypass surgery. So it is not 100 % certain if he will be healthy enough to speak this year at the

G3 as originally planned, but obviously it's not guaranteed that any of us will be there. That's all according to God's sovereignty.

But can you give us any kind of an update on Vody's health, because I know a lot of people constantly ask me. Well, he's definitely mending.

That's something we're grateful to God for. I'm in touch with him literally every day, and so far he's been passing the test that he's been going through, so we are grateful to God for the measure of health that he currently has.

And I'm sure he will still treasure the prayers of God's people, because he's still not yet out of the woods.

Yes, well, I have been reminding our listeners every single day to pray for him and for his quick and full recovery, and hopefully that we hear the good news that he is remaining on the speaking roster at the

G3 conference. I would love to see him there. I remember when Paul Washer was removed temporarily from the roster at a

G3 conference because of his own heart problems, but they put him back on because he recovered.

And it was great to have him present there. I remember that, yeah. I was also there, yeah.

Yeah, amen. And so tell us about Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

I know that it is a solidly reformed Baptist church. Tell our listeners about that church.

Yeah, Kabwata Baptist Church began as a church planted in 1941. But in 1981, by 1986, it was constituted with its own membership of roughly 35 individuals.

From there, they invited me in 1987 to begin my pastoral ministry there.

I'm still meeting in a rented community hall. And in due season, there's a lot that has happened.

Our membership has grown with somewhere between 400 and 500 members.

We have an eldership of nine men with a diaconate by the side of seven.

And when I get back, we'll have another two men joining the diaconate.

We have our own premises now. We've put up the facilities for worship.

We are involved in all kinds of evangelistic activities around Lusaka.

And our church has been planting a number of reformed Baptist churches across Zambia and across Africa, by the grace of God.

We've now planted, I probably would say, about 35 churches. Wow. And so we're really grateful to God for that.

I could say a lot more, but oh yes, of course. The church has also, together with other churches, been involved in training pastors around the country at any one time.

Our part -time colleges, we've got about four of them scattered around the country, would have like roughly 150 men who are undergoing training between our churches.

And then we also began the African Christian University that you talked about, which is a major project on our hands.

So there's a lot of exciting stuff in the midst of all the counseling and reclaiming, backsliders and so on, that you will find in almost any church.

If anybody wants to find out more information about Kabwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, go to kabwatabaptistchurch .com

kabwatabaptistchurch .com k -a -b -w -a -t -a -baptistchurch .com

And hopefully we'll remember to repeat that. Now tell us a little bit more about African Christian University.

I'm very excited to see what the Lord is doing through you and Voti Baucom with that institution.

And let our listeners know not only about what this university offers and how it benefits the local people especially of Zambia, but also how they can help.

Yeah. Well, you know, I've been saying to people that if we knew in 2008 what we know in 2012 about what it takes to start and maintain a university, we probably would still be praying about it.

I think the Lord closed our eyes, we jumped with excitement, and now we are seeing that we are in a ship where we are crying to Him to really help us.

But quickly, the entire project is between a number of our churches, including

Kabwatabaptist, where we deliberately wanted a liberal arts education at tertiary level that would be used to train up a younger generation in the various disciplines.

With, of course, theology, the queen of all disciplines, undergirding everything.

And so that through that we would then carry our ethos, our belief system, through this younger generation to impact the nation and impact the continent.

So that's how we began in 2008. We did not open doors until 2016, a year after Voddie came.

So Voddie came and joined us in 2015 with a view to help us establish the seminary part of the university, which we have since called the

School of Divinity. So we have four courses that we are running, theology being one of them.

And we also have agriculture, we have business, and we also have education.

We are hoping to open up more and more programs and disciplines as the

Lord provides us with finances and also with lecturers.

In the recent past, some exciting stuff is that we've been able to purchase land, about 80 acres of land just outside Lusaka, where now, in fact, while I'm here in the

U .S., we're trying to get a website off the ground, which will be specifically tailored towards our capital campaign.

We are calling it the Ebenezer Project. That's far the

Lord has brought us. So that's something that's exciting on the horizon, and anybody listening in who would like to strengthen our hands,

I hope at some point you give them the website for the African Christian University that is an ongoing website, and then hopefully in due season, they'll find their way to the website that will be specifically for this fundraising project.

The second exciting news is that what Vodi came to help us establish, this year, in about two weeks, we will be opening doors to the

Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology. And the point

I want to stress is that, whereas that might be common here in America, in Zambia, that's exceptionally rare.

And so, the Lord has truly enabled us with His servant

Vodi to do what we really would not have imagined ourselves doing by today.

So we're excited about that. Sadly, our brother will not be there for the official opening, but we've asked him to send us a video so that he can speak to the people that will be gathered about the realization of this dream, training pastors at the highest possible level for the church in Africa.

So there you are, a few words about the African Christian University. And of course, in all this, we need people's prayers.

And also, if they can help us financially, that will be very welcome. That website is acu -usa .com

acu -usa .com Now just out of curiosity, must you be physically present in Zambia to benefit from the studies there, especially the

Divinity School? I'm just thinking out loud here that there might be people in our audience spanning the globe.

We have listeners in at least 26 countries, well, 27 countries, including the

United States of America, that we are aware of. And people might love the opportunity to seek ministerial training with Vodi Bhagom So is that possible to do a remote kind of course like some colleges and universities and seminaries offer?

To begin with, no, because we're just starting and we'd really like to ensure that for the first round or two, we really put our act together on the ground and ensure that we are running seamlessly before we open up too wide.

But then number two, we will require, when we finally do open up, we will require some level of mentorship on the ground where external students will be.

Because one of the big things to do with the African Christian University is this holistic training rather than just academic training.

So that will be one of the issues we need to try and get our hands around before we can then internationalize the training.

Now, I remember when I saw Vodi speak at a conference here in Pennsylvania a couple of months ago before his health declined, very shortly before his health declined, he was mentioning that in addition to the agricultural, there are certain industries local to Zambia that are very large that you are offering courses to help people become trained in those specific industries or fields.

And I remember, if I'm not mistaken, I think one of them even surprised me that it was such a big industry in your area.

But can you tell us about those things? I know agricultural is a no -brainer for Africa, but what else do you offer there?

Well, look, at this stage, it's mainly simply training our students in their various disciplines to be able to be job creators rather than job seekers.

So because of that, we are exposing the students immediately while they're still training to different industries rather than waiting for them to finish and then maybe with about three months of some kind of internship be thrust into the realm of business.

And so, I mean, some of the things we're doing, like right now our university is developing a major cage fish farming project.

Right now we have, once we do our harvest in about two months' time, we'll be harvesting about 120 ,000 fish in order to put onto the

Zambian market. Wow. So, you know, and we're hoping that students going through our hands will see the potential they have instead of, as I said, waiting to be employed.

They can work together, resource funds together and be able to, in fact, be employers, but not just employers, but Christian employers being sought and liked in the business world.

Amen. Amen. And once again, that website is acu -usa .com. acu -usa .com.

And Voti, I'm excited to talk to you about a book that is,

I believe, your latest book published by Crossway, God's Design for the Church, with a subtitle,

A Guide for African Pastors and Ministry Leaders. Now, is that subtitle a bit misleading in that a pastor, no matter where on the globe he lives, may benefit greatly from this book?

Yes. Let me try and quickly explain. What I've done in this book, basically, is

I realize that you people out in the Western world, you are spoiled with books.

You are drowning under books. I am right now in the studio.

Yeah, and I didn't think I should add another drop to that ocean. Okay, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Most people have shelves for books. I actually make shelves with my books.

There you are. So, in accepting the project that I ended up in,

I wanted to write a book that would be for Africa.

Now, the way in which I fashioned it was that I introduce every chapter with some aspect of African life.

And so, anyone who's an African immediately identifies with that illustration.

And then from there, I go to the Bible and pull out basic teaching from the

Bible about the various aspects the chapters are about.

Now, in that section, I could lift that and apply it anywhere in the world.

In other words, somebody in New York would read that section and it's right like any other book they read.

However, when I then come to the application of each chapter,

I specifically aim for those areas that the

African church needs to address in the light of the teaching of the

Bible. And that's where, again, a person in the Western world might find that he's more sort of peeping over the fence as he's reading rather than immediate application to himself.

Although some areas are obviously in common. So, I would encourage people in the

West to purchase the book for two reasons. One, biblical truth transcends all boundaries.

Amen. Boundaries. Political boundaries. Everything. That's one reason.

But number two, it is to enrich themselves with respect to the challenges that are there on the mission field.

So that way, whether somebody else is going to go and visit or they themselves will visit, they know the challenges that are there and it also informs their prayer life.

As they are praying for us, they will know what it is we are really seeking to challenge and change through the gospel.

Amen. And we're going to be talking about that book when we come back from our first break. If you have a question for Dr.

Conrad Mbewe, send it to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Conrad Mbewe right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway Pastor of Cobata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa Founding Chancellor Senior Lecturer and Director of Advancement and Faculty at African Christian University and author and contributor to many books we are addressing one of his books today

God's Design for the Church if you have a question our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

chrisarnzen at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA Dr. M. Bayway this may seem like a very simplistic question but it is obvious that many professing

Christians and even pastors and denominations don't seem to understand what the

Church is and why God established it so if you could answer the question what is the

Church Yeah in fact that's the very first question that I seek to address in the book primarily because that's the base starting point and as you've rightly observed um you know people a lot of people in Africa um have grown up going to church and because they've grown up going to church they they basically haven't given thought to what does the the

Bible itself say about what the Church is so what

I basically did in this book was to try and put a few hangers uh for um a person who's seeking to process that question to um to use in understanding what the

Church is and you know to begin with I I went to the uh the

Greek word Ecclesia and talked about this is what that word itself means and then talked about the fact that the

Church is the body of Christ in other words it's not that place you go to uh for your meetings it's primarily uh a body of called out ones and then

I tried to show the difference between uh the fact that that body is universal it's across the globe wherever God's people are it includes those who have already gone to glory but also it is in its localized form in other words the the people of God together who have covenanted to live under the

Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ so I really emphasize that because we do have individuals who um somehow don't see the need to come under oversight of of elders as the

New Testament clearly teaches and then finally I speak about okay there are a lot of places that have the sign that says such and such church how do you tell whether that's really a church or not and so I speak about the preaching of God's Word as an important sign um the ordinances in terms of Lord's Supper and Baptism and then

I talk about the need for discipline remember the church is under the

Lordship of Jesus so those who are in utter rebellion to Jesus's commands must not be kept within this body and so I bring all that out and once you really appreciate everything

I've just said your mind has come to appreciate what the

Bible teaches concerning what the church is Amen Amen and it is very important it seems like a no -brainer if you call yourself or you call the church of which you are a member a

Christian church it would seem like a no -brainer that Christ is the head of that church the founder and head but at the same time you have churches like the

Roman Catholic Church and you have aberrant groups and cults that have a leader that although he may never dare say he is on the same par with Christ or superior to Christ or a replacement for Christ very often these leaders act that way and I dare to say

I believe that one of the greatest heresies and blasphemies of the church of Rome is that they believe that their

Pope is a vicar of Christ Christ on Earth but if you could pick up where I left off there yeah yeah

I think this whole subject again of the headship of Christ over the church is one about which the

Christian leaders across the ages have spilled blood first of all prior to the great

Protestant Reformation it's exactly what you mentioned the the

Roman pontiff claiming to be the head of the church but even when you had the

Protestant Reformation you still ended up with kings and queens especially in the context of Europe wanting to have the church under them and again them usurping the position of our

Lord Jesus Christ and so across the ages there's been this genuine people of God they've been saying to the politicians let go of the church you don't rule it

Jesus is not dead he's alive and he rules the church through his word and also through his spirit apart from that one of the areas of application that I have used because this is meant primarily for African leaders is to do with individuals especially in the wider sort of extreme charismatic context who claim to be founders and heads of the church and they they do with the church as they please and so in this particular chapter of this book

I have as it were folded my sleeves removed my boxing gloves and with bare knuckles gone after these individuals so that they can let go of the church the church only has one head and it is the

Lord Jesus Christ Amen and obviously one of the things that is rampant in even evangelicalism modern day evangelicalism is the leaders of the church and the members of the church and the church is the congregations forgetting what really is the church's task in the world the specific role they replace what

God has commanded the church to be responsible for with other things the church really has become in many places and instances a self improvement center where basically you are there to hear a message a lecture a speech about how to make your life happier and better in every sphere of your life whether it be your marriage whether it be your career whether it just be relationships with friends and even strangers and acquaintances and basically these things become paramount they eclipse the gospel they eclipse discipline they eclipse anything in a church's function that would perhaps make people feel uncomfortable or uneasy because they are being reminded about their sin in biblically faithful churches so what do you have to say about the church forgetting about its main task in the world yeah again talking about the way

I was applying this in our context I opened up what the bible itself teaches and the bible is very clear the church has two primary functions one is the salvation of sinners two is the sanctification of saints those two things now granted in order to ensure that those two things happen the church will provide for the training of pastors and so forth and sometimes for evangelistic purposes the church will come up with educational facilities and perhaps even means of helping the poor okay but those are secondary those are hand made the main issue is that of evangelism and discipleship it's salvation and sanctification and it's in the marching orders which

Jesus gave his church before he went back to heaven all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me therefore go into all the world and make disciples of all nations so this is the aspect of evangelism and then it says baptizing them in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit and then teaching them to observe or to obey everything

I have commanded you and that's mercy 28 and that last part is the sanctification the discipleship that is to happen and that collectively can also be seen in the work of missions as churches are planting other churches and then those churches are working for the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of sin now sadly in the

African context exactly as you said here churches being turned into self -help centers back home the and so forth so the whole idea was to say guys that's not what the church is about it's about the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of sins bringing people to God through that now uh the social gospel which still is very alive and well unfortunately amongst us used to be championed exclusively by those on the left where they elevated very good things at times uh they elevated feeding the poor caring for the needs of the poor the physical needs of the poor obviously even in James's epistle we are commanded to do these things and other places in scripture but they elevate those things above so far above the gospel that they eclipse the gospel and even make the gospel secondary tertiary or not even essential at all there are even churches that provide all kinds of services to the community and they might even forbid their laborers from proselytizing and being pushy with the gospel because they don't want to offend anyone so they are really they have become nothing more than a place where one might find food clothing they might be given assistance on housing and finances and of course those are important things

I'm not here to lessen the need for those things in the functioning of true

Christians but today you have and for quite some time now it began

I think in the late 20th century or perhaps didn't begin then but became more and more prevalent even amongst conservatives there is a different version of the social gospel where very important things

I'm not trying to lessen their severity or importance they're extremely important like protesting the murder of unborn children protesting the abomination of men marrying men and women marrying women as if that is even a possibility really or men becoming women and women becoming men which we know is also an impossible task but with some conservative or right -leaning churches that almost has become the gospel to oppose those things and they actually embrace as brethren those who do not even believe in the gospel as much as I may love

Glenn Beck for instance I love hearing Glenn Beck very often on TV and radio

I agree with him so much but I know Christians who believe that he is a brother in Christ he's a

Mormon so don't we have to be very careful when we are doing right things and even things we're commanded to do that these things must never even come close to eclipsing the gospel yeah

I agree with you 100 % and I think the issue there is to have an unshakable conviction concerning human total depravity and that ultimately there is only one way in which that depravity can be addressed and it is through the gospel of the

Lord Jesus Christ because therein to borrow the words of the apostle

Paul in Romans 1 .16 is the power of God for salvation and that power is not just an information for the mind it is a complete overhaul of the human heart removing the citadel of sin and establishing the kingdom of righteousness in the human soul and once the church loses that and they begin to concentrate on human comfort physical needs in the end the church loses its saltiness the very saltiness it was trying to have by trying to be relevant and it becomes worth nothing than to be trampled under by men and that's what's been happening in history over and over and over again so what the church needs to do is to have this unshakable conviction that the gospel alone is what transforms human beings and then as you said while we are doing so as we see need we seek to meet those needs out of hearts that have been transformed by the love of God but we keep the gospel first that's the key amen we have to go to our midway break right now please be patient with us because it is a little longer than the other breaks in the show because grace life radio 90 .1

FM in lake city florida requires of them to have a longer break in the middle of the show so they can air their own public service announcements and other local things that geographically localize please use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can provided by as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers to keep them happy so that they keep sponsoring the show and by the way when you cannot actually purchase products or use services or visit churches or support parachurch organizations that are featured in our advertisements please at the very least respond to these ads and thank the advertiser for sponsoring the show because the funds we receive from these advertisements are absolutely crucial they are indispensable to the existence of this program we cannot exist without the funding that comes from our advertisers so at the very least please thank them also use this time to send in questions to Dr.

Conrad M. Bayway on the church and God's design for the church chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail chrisarnson at gmail chrisarnson at gmail at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail chrisarnson at gmail dot com pastored by allen dunne grace covenant baptist church believes its

God's war to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship.

Performed with faith, joy, and sobriety. Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

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Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

God has designed, and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Thank you. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. One of my major concerns, and I'm a visitor to America, but one of my major concerns in your part of the world is you have too many toys.

You have children who've eaten too many sweets and toffees and lollipops and so on before having a major proper balanced diet.

And therefore, you don't have appetite for deep thinking.

You don't have the hunger to press hard after God.

There's superficiality. And therefore, you can go to church and everybody is dancing and the people that are supposed to be leading worship simply want you to jive your time away.

And it doesn't bother you. There's flimsiness there.

The very people that are supposed to be leading in worship are individuals you know are steeped in wickedness and sin.

And you don't care. Oh, brethren, if we are to have real reformers today, we need to take time to be holy.

That was the voice of Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, who we are interviewing today. And I'm loving every minute of it.

And you just heard an ad prior to that sermon clip from a

G3 conference. You heard a clip of Dr.

M. Bayway. And before the clip, you heard an ad for the

Solid -Ground -Books .com, the book ministry of Mike Adosh.

Well, he, in addition to many of the things that he has brought back into print from centuries ago,

Solid -Ground -Books .com carries some contemporary authors' writings, including some of the books written by our guest today, or at least contributed to by our guest today,

Conrad M. Bayway. That would include one of Conrad's books, Foundations for the Flock. We've actually interviewed

Conrad on that book and what a fine and monumental work that is.

And there is also the book Behold Your God, Rethinking God Biblically. And Conrad is a contributor to that.

And there are others. So go to Solid -Ground -Books .com, Solid -Ground -Books .com.

And if you type in M. Bayway in the search engine, M as in Michael, B as in boy,

E -W -E, you will have everything that Conrad wrote or contributed to that Solid -Ground -Books .com

carries. Remember, we absolutely depend upon Solid -Ground -Books .com to exist.

So please try to patronize them frequently. And you're not only going to be doing them a favor by purchasing books from them, and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping an advertiser happy, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you purchase gifts from Solid -Ground -Books .com

an enormous favor because they carry and publish nothing but the finest in Christian literature. And I know,

Dr. M. Bayway, that Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid -Ground Christian Books, is very near and dear to your heart because he was the very pastor that invited you to preach at your very first speaking engagement in the

United States in 1996. Yes, I really treasure him.

He's been a great friend over the years, great servant of the

Lord, a real desire to see people grow in the things of God.

I cannot say enough commendation for him and for the ministry that he has upheld over so many years in the

Solid -Ground books. Amen. Remember, folks, Solid -Ground -Books .com.

Always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Orrins in an Iron Sharpens Iron radio. Before I return to Dr.

M. Bayway for the remainder of our discussion on God's design for the church, I just have a couple of quick announcements, very important ones.

Please continue to pray for Vodie Baucom. Vodie Baucom, who is a colleague of Dr.

M. Bayway's at African Christian University, a very important, vital colleague of Dr.

M. Bayway's there. As I said in the earlier part of the program and as you may have heard elsewhere,

Vodie Baucom has had quadruple bypass surgery. He is recovering, but he is not out of the woods.

So please pray for his quick and full recovery and that we see him on the roster there

September 30th through October 2nd at the G3 Conference, where I will be manning my exhibitors booth.

And remember, for all the details that you need to register for the G3 Conference, go to G3conference .com,

G3conference .com. But also, primarily pray for Vodie's family, that they don't lose this precious and dearly beloved father and husband.

And pray that he has many, many more years on this earth to bless them and to enjoy their fellowship and also to continue to bless the body of Christ with his gifts.

So continue to pray for Vodie Baucom. Also, folks, if you do not want Iron Trump and Zion Radio to disappear from the airwaves, please go to IronTrumpandZionRadio .com,

click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer snail mail, writing out a check and mailing it through the postal service, if you prefer that, well, a physical address will appear on your screen, where you can mail checks made payable to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

So you have that option as well. That's IronTrumpandZionRadio .com, and click

Support. Also, if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign, because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. And lastly, if you are not a member of a

Bible -believing church, a biblically faithful, theologically sound church, I have lists, extensive lists, of churches all over the globe, including

Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. So no matter where you live,

I am very likely going to be able to help you find a church within driving distance from where you live.

I have helped many people in our audience in all places around the world find churches, sometimes within a few minutes of their homes, that they didn't even know existed, or they didn't know that the churches that they passed by every day were theologically sound.

So I may be able to help you. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.

Conrad Mbewe, who is a pastor of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and founding chancellor at African Christian University.

We are discussing his book, God's Design for the Church, and we are discussing and promoting the

G3 conference where he is speaking this fall. The email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Now, one very important thing for the maintenance and preservation of a biblically sound and healthy church is to make sure, as much as we can, being finite and fallible and sinful human beings, as much as we can, we are to preserve the membership of the church to admit only those that we are convinced are truly regenerate and are in a right standing with God.

They are walking right. They're not walking perfectly because no one would be eligible for church membership if that was a requirement.

But we have to make sure that people are truly saved, and that is another problem in the church today, is it not,

Dr. Mbewe, where you have churches so desperate to fill the enormous castles that they have established to house their so -called churches, that they do many things, they provide music and entertainment and all kinds of things that draw the lost in due to the appetites that they are catering to of lost people, and very often these people are not only members of the church, they become leaders in the church, and it can be sometimes clear that these people aren't even really born again.

I mean, isn't this so important? Yeah, it's crucial that people should ensure as much as is possible with them, as you rightly pointed out, that only those who are truly converted to Christ are members of the church.

What I've done in the book, God's Design for the Church, as I already said to you, has been to begin each chapter with some

African illustration, and the example I use in this particular case is the inheritance of chieftainship in a number of our tribes, that it is not the son of the chief who takes over that position of ruler, it is the son of the sister of the chief.

And then I explain the reasoning behind that, and it is the fact that the wife of the chief can cheat on him, as, for instance,

Potiphar's wife tried to cheat on him, so she can do it with one of the many servants around the palace, and end up with a chief who is not the son of the current chief who's existing.

But by choosing the son of the chief's sister, there's no way that child will not be in the bloodline of the chief, because it's from the womb of the chief's sister.

So that's how, in the African context, long before DNA, they secured the throne to remain in the bloodline of the chief.

Now I make the point that if it was so important for tribes to ensure that they only have their own in that room called the palace, how much more important for churches that are carrying on the lordship of Christ in the fallen world to secure the means that ensure that only

Christ's own are in the membership of the church. So I try to use that line, which obviously rings a bell in the hearts and minds of people in our own context.

But the Bible itself argues that out fairly clearly by providing opportunities when such individuals would then be removed from the life of the church, or simply from joining.

An obvious example we have of that being when,

I think it was Barnabas, went into Antioch, and there were others that would be wanting to come into the church's life who were seen to really be lacking a heart for God, a genuine godliness, and consequently would be barred.

Then Ananias and Sapphira, the same thing, were removed from the life of the church because only those who were truly regenerate would show the fruit of godliness to be brought into the church and should be kept in the church.

We have a listener who is asking something about this same area of church life.

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says,

I am in full agreement with confessional Reformed theology and those churches that are very strong in adhering to a historically and biblically faithful confession, like the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, or the Westminster Confession, or the Three Forms of Unity, or the 39

Articles of Religion. But I think sometimes that Reformed churches are too strict in insisting that a candidate for membership agree with everything in the confession before they can become officially welcomed as a member.

Obviously, there are certain things in every solid confession that are needed to be believed, even for one's salvation.

But at the same time, I think that churches can make the mistake of not giving the sanctification process a chance where the person grows in their understanding to finally come to embrace most, if not all, of what is contained in the confession.

And when they deny membership to people who are new to Reformed theology, they are really prohibiting them from obeying

God and becoming a member of a church. What say you about this?

Yeah, what this gentleman, I think is a gentleman, has said would be my position as well.

The Bible is clear as to who should be elders.

There, there is no compromise, because you want such individuals to be those who hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught.

I think that's fairly clear from the book of Titus and chapter 1 and verse 9 in the choice of those who are overseers.

The Bible says he must hold firmly, or he must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught.

In other words, such an individual must embrace the confession of the church.

Through that, he will be teaching and guiding the people of God.

But for those who are coming into the church, I mean, a lot of them are young converts.

At least I hope they are. And fresh out of the world, still largely mixed up with a lot of issues.

And I think it's important that if they are generally converted, from what you can see, and they are willing to be taught, the thing is, you say to them, this is what we believe in this church.

If you are willing to be taught, by all means, join the church's membership.

And we trust that as you are learning in this church, you too will come to these kinds of convictions.

Now, if there are truths that undermine the gospel, it obviously suggests that the individuals themselves may not be converted.

And therefore, you will be trying to help them come to faith in Christ and to hold on to those basics of the faith.

So, what I would say there is, amen, brother. We are in the same boat.

Amen. In fact, my own circumstance reflects what both of you said.

When I came to Christ, out of Roman Catholicism, I was interviewed before my baptism by the elders.

The church where Mike Gaydosh was once a pastor. The first church, which was in Amityville, Long Island, Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which does not exist anymore.

It merged with First Baptist Church of Merrick and became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, where you preached,

Conrad. But when I had my interview, I said to them, guys,

I love you. I trust you as my leaders. I really want to be a member of this church, but I don't think

I'm ever going to believe in this Calvinism stuff. And they said, as long as you are willing to be taught and you do not seek to undermine what is the official position of this church, by tearing down sermons that you hear in the ears of others after services, or by starting a theological rebellion in the church, we are more than happy to welcome you in the membership from what we have seen, as long as you are willing to be taught and do not undermine what we believe.

And that's the way it was, and within months, I came to not only embrace those teachings, but love them madly.

So, thank you for the excellent question. By the way, John in Bangor, Maine, by virtue of your question today, you have won a free copy of God's Design for the

Church, a guide for African pastors and ministry leaders. Thanks to our friends at Crossway, who have donated a limited number of these books.

And also thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVVBS .com, who will be shipping out that book to you free of charge.

Let's see here, we have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who is a very faithful listener and very generous supporter financially of this program.

He says, Greetings brothers, our church has a ministry and helps support several churches in Zimbabwe.

Is this book only being published in English? Is there a way to purchase several of these from a source in Africa?

Because we found it easier to get books into Zimbabwe from there than shipping from the

USA. Yeah, yeah. I think first of all, the book has been published in the

US. There's no doubt about it. And in that sense, it's being published for a worldwide market through Amazon and a lot of other...

book outlets. On the African continent, the challenge that we have is that of the lack of bookstores,

Christian bookstores. And the reason why we have a lack of Christian bookstores is that the price of ordering books abroad, exactly what the person is speaking about, and then shipping them across the ocean, and then trying to sell them at this inflated price to people whose salaries are even 10 times lower, it just becomes completely untenable.

Crossway is working towards raising finances so that they can reprint this book on African soil.

So I would encourage whoever is interested to see large quantities of this book being available in Africa, to simply contact

Crossway and get involved in what they are doing.

I'm aware that they're trying to get at least 100 ,000 copies of this book spread across Africa.

So that's one way in which individuals can do it. Now, do you speak, or is there somebody for Grady to speak with at Crossway?

Like, for instance, my contact is Lauren, who has for years been my contact.

Her name used to be Lauren Harvey, now it's Lauren Sasanto, and I may be mispronouncing that.

Is there somebody specifically at Crossway .org, which is the website, by the way, Grady, where he should contact, or who he should contact?

At this stage, let me try and quickly see. Yeah, I have,

I don't have, oh yes, I have a name, Bill Walsh.

That is W -A -L -S -H, Bill Walsh. He's the

Director of Global Ministry and Advancement. He's the man to get in touch with, and you can learn from him what you could do.

But, as I'm speaking right now, the book is being translated into French, for French -speaking

Africa, and it's also being translated into Zulu, which is a major language block in Southern Africa.

Great. Okay, Grady, that's Crossway .org, and ask for Bill Walsh.

And, by the way, you have won, as well, a free copy of God's Design for the

Church, A Guide for African Pastors and Ministry Leaders. So please make sure we have your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina, so that we can have

CVBBS .com ship that book out to you. We have Mike from Monroe, New York.

I believe that all ministerial training should be directly affiliated with the

Church of God, the ground and pillar of the truth, organized in the precise manner we see in the

New Testament. Is African Christian University primarily concerned with training men qualified for the pastoral office, or is it simply an educational institution open to all who can pay tuition?

For example, anyone who can afford it can attend just about any so -called Christian Bible college, regardless of their beliefs or even whether or not they have a credible profession of faith.

I would appreciate our brother's opinion on this, particularly as it relates to African Christian University.

Well, it's a liberal arts college to begin with, right? Yeah, let me quickly try and answer that question.

First of all, with respect to the African Christian University, as a general university, we seek to train

Christians in the different fields, right? And we interact with them, seeking to show them the reasonableness of the

Christian faith. So we do not say to individuals who are at the door of entry, you must already be eldership material, or you must already be a 1689

Baptist Confessional faith guy or lady. It's open to all who profess the

Christian faith, and for whom we have no reason to doubt their

Christian profession. However, when it comes to theological training, we are a little more careful.

We want commendation from a person's church that they are ministerial candidates in terms of individuals who have the maturity for ministry in that sense.

And I want to assure whoever has asked that question, that we have had individuals who are already in the university, when there's that point when they need to branch into theology, and we have said no.

And the reason why we have said no is primarily at the level of character, because we want to ensure that we are not just giving this training to every

Tom, Dick, and Harry. Now that person has still remained in the university, maybe taking education, or taking agriculture, or whatever else it might be, but we are fairly careful.

Right now, as we are beginning the Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology, we are even more careful.

And we have refused some individuals coming onto the program, primarily because we have said we want to train individuals who are geared for this ministry.

And right now, as we speak, the Master of Arts program we are beginning in 20 days' time, we have 17 days now, we have 5 students that have applied, and all of them are pastors, already pastors, serving pastors.

And they are individuals that we have no doubt want to sharpen, deepen, stretch to the highest level, so that they can be true leaders of Christian churches in the next generation, so to speak.

So, I'd like such a person to be assured that their concern is well addressed in our case.

The doors are not that wide open. Well, thank you,

Mike, and you've also won a free copy of the book we are addressing. God's Design for the

Church, so make sure we have your full mailing address there in Monroe, New York. We have an anonymous listener who says,

I have concerns about churches that quickly elevate to positions of leadership, elders, pastors, etc.

Those within the church that it appears that their promotion or elevation or appointment to positions of authority is based only on their secular careers and businesses, perhaps, that they own.

They are viewed as being successful in business and industry, and therefore they will be successful in the church.

Now, I obviously believe that a man would likely not be qualified for a position of an elder if he had a business that had a notorious reputation for being run in a shoddy manner or in a libelous or false way.

But, at the same time, I think that a person's Christian character and obedience should be elevated far above any business experience they have when they are being considered for such a position.

What is your opinion? Yeah, that's a very important point.

And, you know, I really wish that the person who has asked already has the book,

God's Design for the Church, because that's one of the issues that I really address.

The issue of genuine godliness being a qualification for eldership.

So, to me, it's almost as if the person who has asked,

Mr. Anonymous, it's almost as if he has read the mind of the author of this particular book that I have written.

By way of application, that's one issue that I've really worked on, that just because a person is a community leader in one way or the other, and in this particular case, we are talking in terms of individuals who may be chiefs or headmen of the village, just because they are prominent in that respect, them being allowed to then lead the church is really killing the church.

There must be no compromise on godliness. There must be no compromise on spiritual maturity.

That's exactly why the Bible gives us the qualifications in First Timothy, Chapter 3, and also in Titus, Chapter 1.

So, Mr. or Ms. Anonymous, we are of the same mind, and we are of the same mind with the

Bible. Thank you. Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that book out to you.

That actually, obviously, makes another thought pop in my head, where the

Scriptures are clearly teaching that we have to be very, very careful not to demonstrate preferential treatment in any way to people on the basis of their wealth and how much they give to the church.

You know, treating them with preferential treatment over a poor person in the church.

Is that a question or a comment you're making, Chris? Well, actually, it was a comment, but I wanted your response.

Yeah, well, you know, 100%. Again, we need to emphasize the

Bible has given the qualifications, and when you read the list in First Timothy, Chapter 3, or in Titus, Chapter 1, a person's bank account does not appear as one of the qualifications.

It's godliness. At a personal level, godliness in the family and godliness in the community.

Those are the qualifications that are put there, and for elders, it includes the ability to teach, whereas that's not necessarily a qualification for deacons.

And an elder could even be a poor person. He may have even been a person that, through reasons not of his own fault, is unemployed, although, obviously, a person who is a lazy person and purposely not pursuing employment is not a qualified person for leadership.

Now, I'm speaking here of those churches that have unsalaried elders.

Most churches have a salaried pastor or two or more. But they have elders that are bivocational and so on, and even an unemployed man should not lose his eldership as long as he didn't get fired for some sinful reason.

Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, the current eldership has to process those that they are looking at as potential elders and those who are aspiring for the eldership.

They need to process them on the basis of biblical qualifications, and where they see that a person's lack of employment is because of laziness, that disqualifies them completely anyway.

They shouldn't bring them into such a work. I mean, I have, when we come back,

I'm going to have you answer a question that is very controversial in the church.

Even amongst Reformed churches, it's controversial. What should take place at a worship service?

Because there are those that adhere to what is called the regulative principle of worship, and there are those who prefer the normative principle of worship.

They think that that's more biblical because of the silence on certain things in Scripture. They believe the silence, the normative principle advocates believe the silence gives more liberty, whereas the regulative principle advocates believe silence in the

Bible is an area that would give more restriction or prohibition from what takes place in a worship service.

But if you could, when we come back from our final break, which will be a lot more brief than the others, we'll have you let our listeners know what you think should take place in a worship service.

And if anybody has any questions, now would be the time to send them before we run out of time, to chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. Back together again, yeah.

Back together again, yeah. Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

You can plan to join me and Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the

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This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. All hail the power of Jesus' name.

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Come away from the world, and learn what it means to be alone with God, until the truths of God are burnt into the depth of our beings.

And when we get out there, our jealousy for the glory of God will turn us into unstoppable, courageous reformers.

That was Conrad M. Bayway again, from the G3 conference not long ago.

And Conrad, there is, as I said before the break, even amongst reform believers, a discrepancy or a disagreement, a tension between those that believe in the regulative principle that the

New Testament is a blueprint, basically, for everything that must occur or can occur in a worship service.

And if it's not in the New Testament specifically, it doesn't belong in a worship service.

Whereas those who prefer the normative principle believes that the scriptures themselves offer us more liberty and freedom into what we allow into a worship service.

They obviously wouldn't believe everything is acceptable, that certain things violate the

Bible, but they just believe that the Bible's silence provides more freedom in certain areas.

What is your opinion on that? Yeah, well, you know, bottom line is, first of all, my opinion doesn't matter.

But again, get back to God's design for the church. That's what we need to get back to.

Otherwise, as long as we forget that Jesus is the head of the church, we will inevitably find ourselves abusing his body.

We'll find ourselves abusing the household of God.

So, quickly, it's true, number one, that we can't just introduce into the worship of God whatever we want.

We can't do that. Because it's not our family. It's not our household.

It's God's. And an obvious example I can give is, imagine people walking into your home and treating it as they please.

Obviously, it would upset you. Because it's not theirs, it's yours.

And they need to recognize that you are inviting them in as guests.

And even when you bring them in as adopted children, they must be asking the question, what does that permit to happen here?

But even more importantly, we're talking about his worship. In other words, how do we bring joy to his heart?

Surely we should ask him as to what it is that brings joy to his heart, what it is that uplifts him, that honors him.

We can't just invent what honors God ourself. And thankfully, he has not been silent.

He has put it in his word. So that's the first thing that we need to agree on.

Number two, and that I think helps us to balance, is the fact that what the regulative principle draws our attention to are the elements of worship that must be jealously guarded.

The elements of worship. And there, it's fairly clear. We have the preaching of the word, we've got another's

Bible instruction, we've got the aspect of fellowship, we've got the ordinances, we've got prayer.

There's no doubt about it. Those are spoken about clearly in Scripture.

Rather, the way we would differ is in terms of the circumstances of worship, or the circumstances of those elements, and then also the modes of those elements.

So for instance, if I can just skip myself to Biblical instruction, there are a number of modes that Biblical instruction takes.

For instance, it can be direct preaching, it can be sitting around an actual

Bible study that is inductive, with questions being answered, it can be in terms of simply reading the

Bible, just reading chapter by chapter, and so forth.

So there are different modes that we can use, but it is all

Bible instruction. And then also, in terms of different circumstances, you'll find that some churches will have a morning and evening worship service, others will only have a morning worship service, others, in that morning worship service, they will have two different types of Biblical instruction.

The first part might be in different groups, and then at the second part they all come together, or vice versa.

It is in those circumstances and modes that there is some room for a difference in America, to Africa, to China, to Australia, and so on.

But we don't bring in our own element of worship that God has not directly stated that they should be done in His household.

So that gives us something of a balanced view, which leans towards the regulative principle of worship.

Very quickly, we have a Christian in western Suffolk County, Long Island, who says,

Is it proper for a church to raise funds by having a carnival or other things where the money is largely being raised from the secular society around us?

I would say no. In this book, God's Design for the

Church, chapter 10, is how should the church raise its money.

And I'd really like to encourage whoever it was who asked that question, get a hold of this book, and you have roughly 15 pages addressing this question.

I want to repeat your website for your church, kabwatabaptistchurch .com kabwatabaptistchurch .com

k -a -b -w -a -t -a -baptistchurch .com And African Christian University can be found at acu -usa .com

acu -usa .com I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater