October 13, 2023 Show with Rosaria Butterfield on “Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday the 13th of October, 2023.

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And today is certainly not a day for bad luck for me because I've got one of my favorite guests returning to the program and also one of my favorite sisters in Christ.

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And I'm sure most of you will immediately recognize her name. Rosaria Butterfield is on the program today.

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And Rosaria is a former tenured professor of English at Syracuse University who was delivered from her former enslavement to leftism, feminism,

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Marxism and lesbianism and has been made a new creation in Christ. And she is the husband of Pastor Kent Butterfield of the

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First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham, North Carolina, where I had the honor, privilege and joy to visit recently and join

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Rosaria and her husband and their congregation in worship. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Rosaria Butterfield.

02:25

Thank you, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. And I was so thrilled that I got the invite from you to join you and your husband for breakfast.

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We weren't going to leave you to go violate the Lord's Day, the Sabbath, sir.

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You know, I have a long list of sins I already have to repent of.

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I don't want to add that one. Thanks. Well, I was thrilled to be there.

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And as I told you earlier, when James White heard about that, he said he was jealous. It was a big casserole.

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Yes, it was. It was delicious, too. Well, for the sake of those who have not yet heard your testimony, and it's probably a minority in my audience, but before we go into five lies of our anti -Christian age, your new book,

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I would like you to give a summary version of how you came to Christ, which is detailed in your first book and also in many

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YouTube and interviews on my show. But if you could just give us a summary so our listeners know where you're coming from.

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Yeah, yeah. Well, in in the late 90s, I was a professor at Syracuse University and my my major field was

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English. I'm a 19th century scholar. But in many, many ways, I was recruited and mentored and then tenured to help build the queer theory program.

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Basically, I was there to make lesbianism look wholesome. And I was in a serially monogamous lesbian relationships for about a decade and had been a gay rights activist for about two.

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And after my tenure book was written, I was free to write what I wanted to. And so I was just curious, really, why do

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Bible believing Christians not want to leave consenting adults alone? That was the very quaint language we used, you know, some 30 years ago, right, to talk about gay rights.

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And so I embarked on a book. I wrote a couple of a couple of snarky things in a newspaper that caused a few dustups.

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Can't imagine that. And among other people who wrote to me, the then pastor of the

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Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church, Pastor Ken Smith, wrote me a letter. And it was one of the kindest letters of opposition

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I've ever received. And I thought, well, finally, somebody I could actually sit down with and talk with about this question.

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Why do people like you hate people like me? He seems, you know, reasonable. And that really began two years of meals at his house and Bible study because I was an

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English professor. I was not an anthropology professor. I couldn't just go to a gospel coalition meeting and stick the microphone under somebody's mouth and say, hey, why are you here?

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How's the gift bag? I actually had to read the Bible. And so after reading through the Bible seven times, meeting with Ken Smith and Floyd Smith and having,

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I don't know, maybe 500 meals at their home, you know, they love that many.

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They love. Well, I don't know. I'm not a math major, but they loved me. Well, they they they knew how to love their enemies.

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That was a key thing that I learned. But one of the things I just came under the conviction of was that the

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Lord Jesus Christ was real and risen and true and that that would be true whether I believed it or not.

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And so when I committed my life to Jesus, I was not really sure how he was going to deal with my persistent lesbian feelings and a myriad and a host of other sins or little things like my job.

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But I am now a pastor's wife and a mother and a grandmother.

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I have been married to my husband, Kent Butterfield, for almost as long as I've been a

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Christian, which, of course, is God's great blessing to me. And I can absolutely with great confidence say that the

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Lord has brought me to a place of peace and blessing and comfort and gratitude that he he knows what is right.

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And and that when we live in the grace of God, it is a very good thing indeed.

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And so and that is it really in a nutshell. That's the that's the nuttiest of the nutshell.

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Chris. Well, praise God for that. And do you happen to know offhand the website for the first performed

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Presbyterian Church of Durham? Oh, boy, that would be so nice, wouldn't it?

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I will start I will start typing on my phone and I will forward it to you. How's that?

07:17

OK, well, I think I can pull it up right now. In fact, while I'm looking for this,

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I'm going to announce. Go ahead. Are some one of the things that we'll probably talk about at some point is that my husband

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Kent has preached three sermons now on the sin of transgenderism, and sometimes people are like, oh, could we find the link?

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And so and I'm always sort of, you know, technology and I are not are not the best of friends.

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Same here. But it'll be on the website. It'll be on Sermon Audio. So when it comes up, those are the two places that you can find it.

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And the website is First and that's spelt F -I -R -S -T, not the number one with the

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S -T. First R -P -C -D, I'm sorry.

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First R -P -C -Durham dot org. And Durham is spelt D -U -R -H -A -M.

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First R -P -C -Durham dot org. And you can look for those sermons by Rosaria's husband,

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Kent Butterfield, on transgenderism and I'm sure a host of other topics.

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And it was a joy to worship in this church. It was the first time I've ever worshiped in a

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Covenanter or Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America congregation where they sing exclusively the

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Psalms and exclusively acapella. I did go to a conference once at a

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Reformed Presbyterian Church in New Jersey. That was many years ago. In fact, a couple of decades ago at least.

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But it was not during a traditional worship service that they had. But I hope that any of you living near or in Durham, North Carolina will pay them a visit, especially if you do not have a biblically faithful church home, or if you know of someone that lives in that area, that you will recommend that church to them.

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First R -P -C -Durham dot org. Well, this book is, it shouldn't be controversial amongst

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Christians, but it seems to have become a controversy among not only

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Christians, but organizations that have become the go -to places for many

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Bible -believing evangelicals. When they heard about your book,

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Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age, there were people that were intrigued and interested. But then when they found out about the contents, they had to take a few steps back in their minds, they had to anyway.

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And one of them is an organization that I have actually personally benefited by hearing some of their programs years ago, when

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Dennis Rainey was in charge there. But tell us about what's going on with family life today and their reaction to your book,

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Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age. I don't even know that that's the most interesting part of that story, because as you know, we are in a cancel culture.

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And I would say that, you know, the impetus of this book,

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I think, is pretty threatening to megachurches, to parachurch ministries, and to anybody who needs to be a hireling to keep the lights on in your organization.

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So I'm going to say family life today and crew, I don't think,

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I think after a year of this book being out, Chris, we're going to probably have a couple of other folks we're going to want to talk about.

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But I mean, you know, the book was prompted in part because moms and grandmas and sisters in Christ were just curious and would come to me and say,

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Rosario, what in the world is going on? Why can't we major on the majors anymore? You know, why can't we just major on the majors anymore?

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If Christ isn't divided, why are we? And so in trying to answer that question, I came up with three reasons that produced five lies.

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And the thing about lies, well, first of all, first of all, I believed all these lies.

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So the book starts out with my repentance. And not only did I believe these lies as an unbeliever,

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I believed some of these lies as a believer. So I don't have a leg to stand on.

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I mean, you're looking at the lady who made the mess. I'm just trying to clean it up in this book. But one of the things about lies is that lies come with liars.

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And I'm an English professor by training, so I do this really radical, crazy thing called I cite my sources.

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And that's where it seemed like I stepped on some toes over at Family Life Today and Crew because I cited the source,

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Preston Sprinkle. And I do pretty much call him a rank heretic in my book.

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And I back it up with I all I do is quote him, you know, but but yes, that was that that that was not acceptable.

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We and that was not acceptable because his organization, which is currently featuring lovely little thing here.

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Let's humanize the dialogue in the trans conversation.

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Let's not preach the gospel to people who are lost and in darkness, as I once was. Well, let's not do that.

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Let's just dialogue with them. But, you know, he writes Preston Sprinkle writes the theology curriculum for everybody over at Crew and Family Life Today.

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So I think it was when you and I were having breakfast that Lord's Day that had just happened. So that was a while ago.

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That was a few weeks ago. Chris, a bunch of other things have happened since then. But yes, I think that if you are a hireling for a parachurch ministry that cannot that cannot step us outside of these, there's the false teaching that has become popular and promoted, sometimes understood under the umbrella of Side B gay

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Christianity, sometimes understood as revoiced theology for our reformed listeners. All it simply is, is a papist rejection of concupiscence.

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So, you know, pick pick the category that you want to angle in on this. That's all it is. But if if you're somebody who rejects the papist embrace of concupiscence, does not believe that that that once gay, always gay, rejects the idea that gay is immutable and believes fully and even experientially in the grace of our

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Lord Jesus Christ to save sinners just like me and give you victory to walk in the newness of life.

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If you believe all those things, why you're going to have a hard time keeping the lights on in these some of these parachurch ministries.

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So I've had some people ask me, well, what would you say to these big donors over at Crew? And so here's what

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I would say. Give your money to a good local church. And if you're opposed to doing that, go sponsor a panda at the zoo.

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That would be less of a sin on you than right now supporting this kind of heresy because it's rank.

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It's not it's not subtle. And that's the problem with the book. The book actually just very clearly explains all that.

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And so people get there, you know, get upset. And like, for instance, specifically with Family Life Today and Crew, what is their connection with Sprinkle?

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Yeah, he writes, he oversees their theological curriculum for all of the staff training.

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And so the actual issue at the interview I did with them was that, you know, you can't, you know, we're not saying never,

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Rosaria, but this is a very complex subject. Well, you know, sin makes more work for everybody.

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So I suppose that it certainly has ruined families. It certainly, you know, it has created a, you know, a very powerful, you know, opening for wolves to take over pulpits and for Satan to redirect all kinds of things in the church.

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But no, actually, it's not that complex. Homosexuality is a sin. Transgenderism is a sin.

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They are both violations of the Tenth Commandment, and they are both antagonists and rebellion against the created order, which for our

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Reformed listeners, we know that is called the Creation Ordinance. It is an ordinance. It is therefore a law.

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So it's a very big deal. But he, Preston Sprinkle's organization, is the ultimate side

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B, papist, anti -cupacence, you know, you can be gay.

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You're always going to be gay. Just don't act on it. But if you do, that's OK, too, because we understand.

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We have grace. It's you know, we're going to bypass repentance to get to grace. And and so basically what they said is that they need to take at least six months so that they can really wrap their minds around this very complex issue.

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And I shared with them that I was absolutely convinced that the Lord had already wrapped his mind around this complex issue and had shared that in his holy word.

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And I think I'm off the Christmas card list for family life. Chris, I don't know.

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What do you think? You'll send me one. It's OK. Well, did

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I answer your question? Did. Yes, you did. And it actually opened the doors for other questions that I will get to momentarily.

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But it is quite interesting that the recent debate that I had that I had arranged,

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I should say, between Dr. Gregory Coles, who is a member of that organization led by Sprinkle Center for Faith.

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And is it Center for Faith and Sexuality? What's the full center? Don't forget that article adjective.

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The Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. I only know that because Mary Weller over at Truth Exchange sent me the most recent, you know, what do you call it?

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Seminar that you could attend called Humanizing Dialogue in the Trans Conversation.

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And it features a biological man who's wearing a very bad wig and definitely needs the gospel, definitely needs our help.

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We are Christians. We're not barbarians like this. We don't throw people away and feature them and platform them in their sin.

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I can't imagine where I'd be. But also the host of this seminar is no no one other than Dr.

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Gregory Coles. And let me say something about Greg. I like Greg. I know Greg.

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He likes you. Yeah, I've sat down and talked to Greg. I wish I quite frankly wish that when

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Greg was driving from Pennsylvania to Idaho, he had taken a detour here.

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And actually, Christopher Yuan and I and Greg were in a text message conversation for much of that ride.

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I like Greg. I like him a lot. I'm sorry. He's a likable. He's a likable person.

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Yeah, absolutely. And his vice president of operations at that organization is

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Chris Sprinkle, a woman who I'm assuming is either the daughter or the granddaughter or some relation to the founder.

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But to just take a brief detour, I know that you watched the live streaming of the debate that I arranged between Gregory Coles and Dr.

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James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on the theme, Is Gay Christian a

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Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? And of course, Dr.

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Coles took the affirmative position and Dr. White denied the thesis of the debate.

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What were your thoughts on the debate? Yeah, well, I was really glad that you all did that, first of all.

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I think that was a very helpful, important debate. I had a whole group of people here watching it, two

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RPCNA pastors, my husband, Kent Butterfield, and our friend, Pastor Micah Ramsey from, well, you met him because you had lunch with him.

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Yeah, yeah. Eastvale RPCNA over in the Beaver Falls area of Pennsylvania.

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And then all of our kids watched it as well. You know,

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James has a real pastor's heart because James is a much more experienced debater, and he could have muscled in ways that he absolutely didn't.

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And I really thought that was very gracious and very kind. Here's the thing. I don't know how in the world you fight a sin if you need to keep it alive at the same time.

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I mean, just genuinely, maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand this, but for me, learning how to hate your sin without hating yourself was kind of the first moment of clarity for myself as a

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Christian. And this idea that something, and this isn't a small sin.

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I mean, we aren't talking about a small sin. Homosexuality is rebellion against the created order. It is an antagonist to image bearing.

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It's like stabbing yourself in the heart. Proverbs 23,

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I think it's around seven, says, you know, as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is. And when I was a lesbian,

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I was doing a lot of very bad thinkething. And if I maintained that identity, and here's why, because what is at the root of identity is a belief that it is not a sin to desire that which

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God hates. It is morally neutral. It's hands off. Some of the side beers will say it's like blindness or cancer.

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You know, it's definitely part of the fall, but it's certainly not a culpable sin.

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But that's not at all what the Lord says about sexual sin. And furthermore, what

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I thought was so interesting in the debate was, you know, because you know this, if you make one slight error in your logic, then almost everything that comes after that is going to be so.

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And I was glad he brought this up. Dr. White brought up a blog post that Greg had written for Preston Sprinkles Center for blah, blah, blah, faith, sexuality, and gender.

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And in this blog post, he said, you know, if you gave me, offered me a

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Tylenol or a make -me -straight pill, I'd take the Tylenol. Yeah, that's a shocking statement for somebody who professes to be an evangelical.

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Well, but the only reason it's not shocking is because he is 10 years downstream of such outrageously, and it's just rank heresy that, you know, he's just parroting all the teachers he's had.

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But he mentioned Greg Johnson's book.

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And he said, but, you know, but why would I want to get straight pill? First of all, it doesn't work.

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Greg Johnson showed, you know, 99 .9 % of the people, blah, blah, blah, you know. And I don't even know where he got that number, but it's nuts.

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That's crazy. They never change. Very interesting. You know, you're dealing with an idol. And I think this is the other point of my book that makes people mad.

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LGBTQ is not just a sin pattern that we're sort of, you know, dealing with and we're watching it on the rise.

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It is our nation's reigning idol. And if the

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Lord should tarry, I believe that we will remember these days in the infamy of Moloch.

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It is just that serious. But part of the reason that Greg said he'd rather have a Tylenol and not a get straight pill is because he was working from Greg Johnson's position that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equally sinful.

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And that heterosexuality, all that is, according to Greg Johnson, is polyamory.

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And what Greg has, you know, went on to do in his book, and a lot of what

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Greg Kohl's was saying, Greg Johnson says in his book, one of the things that Greg Johnson was confusing, of course, is that heterosexual sin is a terrible sin.

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It's a sin against practice. But homosexual sin is a sin against both pattern and practice.

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And yet, when I say things like that, this group charges me with spiritual abuse.

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And so Greg even writes it in his book. He says, you know, I mean, he doesn't name me by name. He could have.

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Would have been fine. But, you know, that camp, that reformed camp that says that really actually change and victory, being victorious over your sins, no longer being beholden to them, that's

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Christian. Being a born -again Christian comes with change. Now, are we glorified?

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No, not until we're glorified. But our sanctification is a powerful tool.

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And it makes powerful changes in the lives of the believer. But Greg Johnson says in his book, two things about the people who would say what

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I just said. He said, on the one hand, we are spiritual abusers.

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And on the other hand, he says, but they are brothers and sisters in Christ.

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And I've spent a lot of time pondering that. I'm almost more offended that he said that we're brothers and sisters in Christ than I am that I'm a spiritual abuser.

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Because I could actually defend myself against the charge of spiritual abuse. But if you say I'm a brother and sister in Christ, what you're doing is you're saying, well, you know, it's not a big deal.

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Like it's just having victory over your sin is just not a big deal. Like you don't really need to do that.

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You can be a Christian and be gay. And, again, I just don't see it.

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It's not biblical. And what I have seen are lives absolutely, you know, just railroaded into the ground.

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Because if you can't fight your sin, fairly soon you will become enslaved by it.

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And that's the thing that Preston Sprinkle doesn't like to talk about. He dedicates his books and he, you know, thanks all of these, you know, just exemplary trans

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Christians and gay Christians. And I happen to know the, you know, the body count on that.

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He doesn't name their last names. But I know who they are. I've been in this conversation long enough. You know, it's very serious.

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And this is the other issue that people need to think about. I need to think about it. You need to think about it. If we're going to talk about these things, we need to think about not only where we're going with them, but we need to look back and see how the people who are following us are doing.

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Are they in Christ? Are they thriving in Christ? Or are they in this kind of bereft therapeutic nonsense with a couple of Christian themes attached to it?

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Walking the road to hell. Because that's really serious. And that's going to be accounted to those of us who spend too much time doing what you and I are doing right now and sitting here in front of microphones.

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So it's a good caution for all of us, but I thought it was a great debate. The end was the part that was most painful to me.

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When, and it's, you know, it was a long debate and I know, I know Greg was tired and I know

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James White was just getting geared up because that's how he, you know, three hours is nothing, you know, he's been, he's been riding his bicycle for 42 and you know, so you know, you know,

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James, but James said to Greg, well, what about repentance?

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And Greg was tired and he was sort of annoyed. I think at that point with just how long this debate had gone on and he just kind of threw his hands up and he was like,

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James, what am I supposed to repent of? And that's where you saw it.

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And it was so sad. That's where you saw it. These people believe in a doctrine of grace and it's the, it's a doctrine that says you can bypass repentance to get there.

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Thomas Watson and his book, the doctrine of repentance says faith in Christ involves belief, repentance and belief.

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You can't see belief, but you can see repentance. And if you don't, you should not assume belief.

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Amen. And by the way, folks, if you want to get that book, you can go to Cumberland Valley Bible book services, website

29:26

CVBBS .com and ask for the banner of truth publication of Thomas Watson's book on repentance.

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We have to go to our first commercial break. And if anybody wants to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is

29:43

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

29:49

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence. We will accept anonymous calls.

29:56

If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are someone who is struggling with the sin of homosexuality and you're not ready to publicly identify yourself in regard to that issue, we understand.

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We will accept your anonymous question. And perhaps you're even a member of a church that you believe is in great error in regarding to the sin of homosexuality in some fashion, and you obviously don't want to publicly throw your own pastor and church under the bus at this point.

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We understand that there will be reasons like that that would compel you to remain anonymous. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

30:40

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That's royaldiadem .com. We are now back with my guest today, Rosaria Butterfield, author of the new book,

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Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age. I just wanted to read a plug from my friend,

38:27

Dr. Joel R. Beeky, president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Rosaria Butterfield reminds us that the answer to these soul -destroying lies remains the same as it always was, knowing and abiding in God's Word.

38:43

And I'm thrilled to announce that Dr. Joel Beeky, in June of 2024, I think it may be the very first Thursday of June, I'll have to make sure on that, but he's going to be the next

38:57

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon keynote speaker. So I'm absolutely delighted that my old friend that I've known since the 1990s,

39:06

Dr. Joel Beeky, will be doing that for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and so mark your calendars for the first Thursday in June, and I'll let you know if that was the correct date in the very near future.

39:18

We have to just go through a couple of things since you brought them up so our listeners understand some of the things you said.

39:27

For instance, you were talking about the theology in regard to homosexuality that Preston Sprinkle and Dr.

39:35

Gregory Coles endorse is actually rooted in papal heresy, and I happen to know that even when

39:44

I have had conversations with very conservative

39:49

Catholic apologists, anybody who knows me well enough knows that I have arranged many debates between Dr.

39:57

James R. White and also Dr. Tony Costa and Roman Catholic apologists, but when

40:03

I have had private conversations with them, they will say that their church teaches that if a

40:11

Catholic man is going to seminary, he has a desire to become a priest, he acknowledges that he is a homosexual.

40:18

They merely insist that he takes a vow of chastity and that there's nothing innately wrong enough.

40:28

They do call it a disorder, but they say that there's nothing innately wrong enough to prevent that man from being in the priesthood, and hence we have had for centuries all kinds of sexual immorality in the priesthood.

40:42

I mean it did include heterosexual sin as well, but today the rampant sin that seems to be a global phenomenon, and it's interesting.

40:55

Most people categorize it as pedophilia, but in most cases it's not pedophilia.

41:02

It's priests molesting teenage boys. But anyway.

41:08

Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think the actual language in the Roman Catholic catechism is that concupiscence is not sin, but it inclines to sin, which, you know, and rightly so the reformers, and I mean

41:25

I think this is actually, you could probably just say this is what, you know, you need to lay the gauntlet down for in reform theology.

41:35

If it inclines to sin, it's sin. But it's a very serious but subtle error, and part of why it's subtle is the way that these people manage it, and side

41:48

B is not just about men struggling with an indwelling sin that they didn't choose.

41:56

I mean there is that, but it's also all of these megachurch pastors and parachurch ministries that are just desperately trying to find a way to stay relevant in the world and not appear like to say anything that might offend people.

42:11

And so the way that it plays out is they'll say this. They'll say, you know, I have really tried to pray the gay away.

42:19

I've prayed, Lord, take this from me. But he hasn't.

42:24

And so what you need to understand about me is I'm really a victim. I'm a sufferer before I'm a sinner.

42:32

And, you know, again, you see a subtle but a really serious confusion. When you are sinning in concupiscence, when you are desiring that which

42:42

God hates, you are not to say, God, take this desire away from me. You are to repent of that desire because even that desire is a, what our

42:54

Westminster Confession of Faith would say, emotion. It is not sinless temptation.

43:02

And, you know, they all go to James 1 and they say, but this is lust unrealized.

43:08

And I just listened to a wonderful sermon by Pastor Rahm at the Dallas RPC where he talked about how that whole

43:17

Romans 1 section is a little bit like the life cycle of sin. So in some ways concupiscence or desire, it's the embryonic form of sin.

43:29

But it's sin. We wouldn't say an embryo is not a child. It's actually sin. And so if you want to deal rightly with your sin, you want to have victory over your sin, you have to fight it when it's small.

43:40

If you wait till it's huge, you might not win.

43:47

Not by yourself. And so that's the other really sad thing. These men won't fight maybe when they have a fighting chance.

43:58

Right. And that's really sad. And Gregory Coles went further because he was clearly saying,

44:06

I don't know if he used this exact phraseology, but he was clearly insinuating that he believed this homosexuality was a gift from God because it prevented him from having heterosexual lust, which in his opinion, the greater temptation in the world with visual imagery and in the cinema and television and magazines on the

44:32

Internet is females dressed and behaving seductively.

44:37

So therefore he is kept safe from that. I don't even know if that is true any longer.

44:43

Oh, yeah. I was thinking that myself. And one does not want to do an

44:48

Internet search on that to get the answer. But, yes, I think you're right. I think all of that is downstream from a number of other ideas, from people like Wes Hill and Nate Collins and Greg Johnson.

45:03

And they have some different issues. But Wes Hill would say that his homosexuality is a gift because as a gay man, it allows him to appreciate beauty more than, you know, you thugs out there who just don't appreciate beauty, apparently.

45:20

So that's Wes Hill's point. Nate Collins is that it's not a sin because it's so aesthetically beautiful to be gay.

45:31

And as long as you sublimate it, you're in good form.

45:38

But, you know, if you don't, you don't. We have solidarity. And then the newer voices in ReVoice are even recommending things like, quote, unquote, celibate gay unions.

45:51

And in a celibate gay union, you could even go get yourself gay married. Really? But just don't have sex.

45:59

But if you do, we understand, just as Andy Stanley said, that you just couldn't help yourself because the

46:07

Bible is wrong. God is wrong when he said that he does not give you a command without the capacity to fulfill it.

46:14

That's just not true. We're just being insensitive. And so in some ways it's sad to see

46:20

Greg talk because, I mean, he's young enough to be my son, so there's that. But he is that second generation.

46:28

And, you know, we didn't deal with this rightly 10 years ago.

46:35

And now it's big and it's ugly and it's taking hostages because that's what sin does.

46:42

Yes. In fact, when I was organizing this debate with Dr. White, we mutually agreed and so did the folks who organized it with the

46:55

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society, that this is really the more dangerous sin in regard to homosexuality, to believe that although we do not involve ourselves physically in this, we believe that the innate qualities of being a homosexual are completely acceptable to God.

47:17

The reason why it's more dangerous is it's like a Trojan horse in evangelicalism. Right. And you have evangelical churches inviting

47:24

Dr. Coles and others to speak to their children at churches all over the United States and perhaps globally.

47:30

Now just so our listeners get a little bit more of an understanding, because some of this is new language that is like puzzling a lot of us, the whole thing with side

47:41

A and side B, would it be correct to summarize it in saying that the side

47:47

A Christians so called believe that homosexuality is not a sin and as long as you have a monogamous loving partner, that you could be not only a

48:02

Christian without fear of hellfire, but you could even be a pastor, an elder, a deacon, and you can be married to someone of your same gender.

48:14

And I'm assuming some of them would say that that's the only way that they can fulfill their sexual desires is in marriage to a same -sex partner.

48:22

And then the side B is those who believe, like Dr. Coles, that the physical act of homosexuality is sin, but there is nothing sinful innately about identifying yourself as a homosexual and believing that that is a quote, unquote incurable state in life for a, even a regenerate person.

48:48

Am I getting this right? Kind of, it goes a little deeper. And this is actually part of why I wrote this book, because I had moms and grandmas and cousins and aunts saying,

48:58

I have lost my daughter, my granddaughter. What is going on? And so what

49:03

I tell people all the time is you get to be sanctified in your ignorance. You do not need a

49:09

PhD in this. And so I wrote the, I tried to write the book very clearly so that people had a sense of what the ideas are and where the pressure points are at the level of the church.

49:20

But here's the thing with garbage, throw it away. Don't become an expert in garbage.

49:26

But the real issue with side B is the concubin side. And it is the identity piece that's, that's a little bit too fuzzy for me.

49:34

The actual side B position is you can desire sin. Without sinning.

49:42

Yes. Because your desire is not an action. And you are actually a victim because God, and you know, who's the big, the big oppressor is of course

49:51

God, because he didn't take that away. So you bypass repentance to get to grace and you rewrite the gospel.

49:58

And here's why this is, if this were a little sidebar problem, you know, like there are just a couple of men who call themselves gay over there, out there in Idaho.

50:08

And then they came to the Midwest reformation and they did it. We wouldn't need to talk about this, but the broad evangelical church and all of the parachurch ministries are doing exactly what we talked about crew doing.

50:21

They're bending over backwards to embrace this ideology.

50:26

And this has become a problem in the broad evangelical church. The broad evangelical church of our day is the liberal church of nation's day.

50:37

And it is promoting a false gospel. Right. And in fact,

50:43

I even heard years ago when I worked for Salem media, the largest Christian radio network in the world, several people came up to me and, and I'm not going to mention the name of the very, very, very, very famous radio evangelist, because he may have repented of this really ridiculous and heretical statement.

51:07

But I believe it was likely true since people independently of each other approached me and said that he, they heard him say this that Jesus at times wanted to commit sin, but he never yielded to that temptation.

51:25

Well, wanting to commit sin is sin and that goes hand in hand with what you were just talking about.

51:30

If they really believe that wanting to commit sin and refraining from bringing it to fruition is not sin, then they have would have to admit that Christ would want to have committed sin.

51:44

Well, and that does, that's the issue of temptation and that's what they would say. They would say, but Christ was tempted in all ways.

51:51

And so he understands my homosexuality. He was tempted by, you know, he was a man. Don't you think he lusted after women?

51:58

I mean, maybe women, maybe men. It's so, I mean, it's such a violation of the third commandment, listening to these people talk that I almost hate to repeat it.

52:07

But, you know, and this is where Denny Burke's work is really helpful. I mean, he was the one of the first ones to say there's a difference between an internal and an external temptation.

52:21

And Christ was born without sin. He was born without a sin nature. And so that those temptations are real.

52:29

Those external temptations are real, like Potiphar's wife. But if a temptation comes your way, it's a legitimate temptation.

52:38

It's not a sham. But if your response is to be repulsed by it, to flee from it, you've actually won.

52:47

And that's the kind of temptation that Jesus, you know, I mean, he experienced it in the garden, right.

52:53

And he experienced it, you know, with, with Satan in the wilderness. And so, so, but, but to collapse those categories.

53:01

And that's what, that's what, you know, this is a very sloppy theology and, and really reformed thinkers have no business being sloppy with them.

53:13

But there are a couple of things that this sloppy theology that ties it all together.

53:18

Can you, can you pick up on where you left off when we returned from our midway break? Absolutely.

53:24

Okay. And don't forget about the sloppy theology and the things that tie it together. Yeah, I know I'm writing that down.

53:32

Folks, please be patient with us with the middle break. It's always a little longer than the other breaks. Write down your questions to Rosaria Butterfield and send them to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:41

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens, iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

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He really loves hearing interviewed. Dr. Joe more craft. I'm Joe. Right.

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Faithful. Iron sharpens, iron radio listener here in a toy in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

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Before I return to Rosaria Butterfield, our guest today, who is going to be discussing five lies of our anti -Christian age,

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Iron Sharpensiron Radio audience all over the planet Earth find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

01:11:03

That may be you, too, if you cannot find a church home that is biblically faithful. Send me an email.

01:11:08

No matter where you live in the world, to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:11:14

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Rosaria Butterfield, our guest today, and we are discussing five lies of our anti -Christian age.

01:11:24

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. You may remain anonymous if the question is personal and private.

01:11:32

Rosaria, if we could pick up where you left off before the commercial break, and I'd love to hear what you have to say.

01:11:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before we left off, I was saying that the five lies of our anti -Christian age all rely on category mistakes that Reformed Christians ought not make, and they ought not be seduced by.

01:11:52

The five lies are homosexuality is normal, pagan spirituality is kind, and biblical

01:11:58

Christianity is harsh. The third lie is feminism is good for the church and the world.

01:12:05

The fourth lie is transgenderism is a normal gender variant for some people, and the fifth lie is that modesty is an outdated cultural practice that holds women back and just supports a kind of dangerous patriarchy.

01:12:19

And you see a lot of category mistakes that are shared across that list, and again,

01:12:24

Reformed Christians ought not be believing this. Basically, no

01:12:30

Christians should. Well, no Christians should, but we have a confession.

01:12:36

We have the creeds and the confessions, and we are downstream from people who are great and brilliant thinkers.

01:12:43

Our churches don't have a faith message that is three sentences long.

01:12:51

You know what I'm saying? So one of the biggest category mistakes is the idea that there's a difference between sex and gender.

01:13:00

There's no difference. There's no difference at all. And in fact, to introduce gender as a new category of either calling, you know,

01:13:11

I'm biologically female, but I'm called to be a whatever. Or a new category of personhood.

01:13:19

I'm biologically female, but I'm really called to be a man. And to separate sex from gender in this really false way, in pursuit of this different sexual identity, different sense of calling, is simply unnatural to the

01:13:38

Creation Ordinance. It's unnatural, and it's harmful for the purposes for which

01:13:43

God made us. So first of all, God is not some mad engineer.

01:13:48

He didn't build a bridge to nowhere. He made women to be nurturing. And in the capacity of the

01:13:56

Creation Ordinance, to bear children, to care for them, to care for the home, He made men to be strong providers.

01:14:03

And you know, even World Magazine had an issue with me on that. Like, well, we think Rosaria was really adding to the

01:14:10

Bible there. Well, you can only say that if you think that there's a difference between sex and gender, and that that's a category that you would make.

01:14:21

What's really interesting about that is that the sex generation was foundational for feminism.

01:14:28

And feminism is dead as a doornail right now in the world. I mean, we don't even have

01:14:33

Title IX anymore. It's dead. Transgenderism killed it. And so the very kernel of the feminist paradigm that they loved dearly, was simply not strong enough to deal with a particular kind of patriarchy they weren't ready for, transgender patriarchy.

01:14:55

And so it just raises the question for Christians, do you want biblical patriarchy? Or do you want transgender patriarchy, because you're going to get patriarchy, you know, you got to pick it.

01:15:04

So that's the first that's one category mistake. This isn't in any particular order. The other category mistake is that there's no difference between vocabulary and ideology.

01:15:15

So hey, you know, says Preston Sprinkle, I use transgender pronouns, because, you know, it's missional, and it's kind and you know, what

01:15:22

Rosaria Butterfield used to say that stupid thing, too. I've just repented of it. I'm not smarter.

01:15:28

I've just repented of it. That's a sin. But part of the pressure that we have to face right now is that we are not talking about vocabulary.

01:15:37

We're not talking about just trying to have a private conversation with someone with a hefty load of core comorbidities.

01:15:45

And you're not trying to like escalate a crisis in the foyer of the house. We're talking about ideology.

01:15:52

People are getting fired for not using transgender pronouns. That's because we're not dealing with vocabulary.

01:16:01

Another category mistake is that question of, of the need for allies. I opened

01:16:06

I think I said this on the show that that the early gay rights movement called for allies to agree with with those of us who were proclaiming this at the time that we needed to leave consenting adults alone.

01:16:20

Well, the allies of the 30 years ago gay rights movement are the groomers of the trans rights movement.

01:16:27

And you haven't heard consenting adults in decades. That's because we have a new target.

01:16:34

It's called the transgender child, which is an invention of an evil age.

01:16:40

Christopher Rufo over at Manhattan Institute says that the transgender child is a totem.

01:16:47

You know, a totem like a boar's head you stick on a pole, and everybody, all the barbarians march behind it.

01:16:54

And part of why we need and there are other category mistakes, too. But I'll just stick with those for right now.

01:17:00

Part of why we need to understand the importance of these distinctions is we live in a post -Obergefell world.

01:17:07

We live in a world that not only declared gay marriage to be the legal rights in all of the states, but also declared that to deny someone's

01:17:17

LGBTQ plus dignity is harm. It's called the dignitary harm clause.

01:17:23

And then furthermore, the Bostock decision came in 2020, when we were all busy covering our faces with masks, or some of us were and, and, you know, you know, disinfecting our countertops.

01:17:35

That decision declared that LGBTQ plus should be written into the 1964

01:17:42

Civil Rights Act. And so it was based on Bostock that you now have in every government school in the

01:17:53

United States, even the government school where your granddaddy was the principal and, and you were spanked or whatever, that you have something called an anti -bullying policy that has transgender legislation tied to it, sending your children to public school.

01:18:11

So saying something like what the Gospel Coalition did recently by saying, you know, public schools are great.

01:18:17

Jen Wilkins said that you're going to get a first class, excellent education.

01:18:24

Well, I don't know why the Gospel Coalition doesn't know what time it is, but they need to know what time it is.

01:18:30

And the rest of us need to know what time it is also.

01:18:37

And I'll tell you, I speak before school board meetings on the subject of transgenderism and parental rights, which is a little bit like doing rounds at the psych ward during a full moon, you know.

01:18:51

So I'm telling you, no, sending your child to Philistia for education right now is one of the most dangerous things that you could entertain on planet earth.

01:19:03

So having your categories clear, knowing what the pure word of God is, is really important, because it's not easy.

01:19:12

See, that's the point. You might be called to die for this gospel that you love, and for this

01:19:17

Lord that has died for you. These are not easy days. And you need to know that.

01:19:24

And all of the fanfare and the glitter at these broad evangelical conferences, and almost this like, hyper need for megachurch pastors to tell you that, oh, no, no,

01:19:41

I mean, I can't tell you how many megachurch pastors say to me, oh, Rosaria, you know, you've been redpilled. Don't you know that God is not constrained by space and time?

01:19:53

And I'll say, yes, I do know that. But I also know that you are, and I am. Because we live in a place in time.

01:20:00

And to be effective as Christians, you need to know what time it is. And so if this one takeaway that I'd want you to hear, the one reason that I felt it was necessary to write another book, because I declared everybody, after gospel comes to the house,

01:20:14

I'm done. But it was because I don't think we know what time it is.

01:20:20

And the Reformed churches need to not be seduced by the nonsense coming out of broad evangelicalism.

01:20:26

Because the broad evangelicalism of our day is the liberal church of Machen's, and you need to see it just in those stark terms.

01:20:34

Yes, and what Rosaria is referring to, if you are unfamiliar with Machen's classic book, Christianity and Liberalism, she's speaking of what

01:20:43

Machen and others were battling during the fundamentalist modernist controversy in the earlier part of the 20th century.

01:20:50

And I was just thrilled to receive three copies of Christianity and Liberalism.

01:20:59

I believe it was Ligonier Ministries that donated 100 copies to our pastors launching that we gave away.

01:21:06

But I'd like to go to some listener questions before we run out of time and don't have the time to take any of them.

01:21:15

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio. For the sake of some listening who may not thoroughly understand why homosexuality is a sin, could you please give

01:21:28

Bible references and expound on them, if you would? Absolutely.

01:21:34

And but what I'd like to do, you know, I think people are familiar with the references that use words like, it's an abomination, or, you know,

01:21:43

I think the clearest maybe articulation in a most discreet way is Romans one.

01:21:49

And so I mean, I think that that those are important, and we can certainly get there. But I want to start at the beginning, because all of the

01:21:56

New Testament admonitions against homosexuality are actually anchored in the

01:22:02

Old Testament, in two particular places. And that's why we need to remember the seeds of the gospel are in the garden.

01:22:10

You know, no, no, Adam, no Christ. So you can't be you can't do it. Andy Stanley said, you know, he wanted to do

01:22:16

I think 10 years ago, and that's, you know, on the right, the Old Testament for the

01:22:22

New Testament. Or if you do that, you can just say, I am a heretic, I am unhitching the Old Testament for the New Testament.

01:22:27

But the first place you want to go is the creation ordinance, it's Genesis 127. And what it means to be made in the image of God as male or female.

01:22:40

And the reason that this is important is, you are called to grow in your creation ordinance, foundational reality, that is just truth, that is who you are.

01:22:53

And so you are called to grow there. And our confessions talk about growing in the knowledge, the righteousness and the holiness of God.

01:23:03

Transgenderism and homosexuality are part of the world, the flesh and the devil. If you grow in those things, you are growing against the image of God.

01:23:15

So when you hear people like Preston Sprinkle, or, you know, even even, you know, Greg Coles talk about I made in the image of God as a gay man, that is absolutely, that's rank heresy.

01:23:29

But what's important to remember, and I think, you know, this is, you know, we are not barbarians, we are

01:23:37

Christians. And what that means is we don't throw anyone away, we completely understand that after the fall, there will be people who will desire these things.

01:23:48

You know, the old the old saying in the gay rights movement was that homosexuality meant who you want to go to bed with.

01:23:54

And transgenderism meant who you want to go to bed as. So that I mean,

01:24:00

I'm sorry to, you know, impart something from my 30 year old, you know, from 30 years ago, but but I think that is actually relevant to see how anti gospel that is.

01:24:10

But we don't throw people away. We understand that people will be, you know, born in Adam, with desires that God hates.

01:24:18

And some of those people will go on to mutilate themselves. They will either mutilate themselves by having a kind of aggressive sex that literally renders them in depends as you know, and not as older people, or they will mutilate themselves by having hormonal and surgical mutilations upon their body.

01:24:43

That will also render them medical patients for life. And we are not barbarians.

01:24:49

So we don't hold up these people and say you are an example of what not to be. We hold out the gospel.

01:24:55

And we say you repent, and you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And in the new

01:25:00

Jerusalem in the resurrection of your body, it will be glorified and you will not have been able to mock

01:25:08

God. And some of and you know, we are dealing not only with, with the transgender movement here and the need for that message, but you just imagine meeting parents who are supporting the castration of their 14 year old son.

01:25:26

Astonishing. It is astonishing, but these people need the gospel. So my, my scripture verses,

01:25:32

I mean, my favorite place to always go is Romans one. But I want to rank

01:25:38

I want to anchor it where where where Paul anchors Romans, and that's in the the the creation ordinance,

01:25:46

Genesis 127. And also the, the 10th commandment, thou shalt not covet, because that's the other thing that the sexual fetishes, what fuels them is a sense of envy, and covetousness.

01:26:01

And the Christian response is to grow in the the grace of contentment, which again, the

01:26:09

Apostle Paul talks about that he is, he has learned in all stations to be content. That's not resignation.

01:26:15

It's something radically different. So I hope I answered your question. And I hope my book answers your question.

01:26:22

I actually do go through the quote, unquote, clobber verses and, and some of those other things in the book.

01:26:29

By the way, wasn't it really a home run if that's appropriate to use that phrase, when

01:26:36

Dr. White brought up covetousness in the debate with Gregory Coles, because it's not an action, it's a state of mind and heart.

01:26:47

And that is what Gregory Coles was trying to use to justify, right about homosexuality, that it's some kind of innate condition of the heart and mind.

01:27:00

And as long as we don't do anything physically with it, but covetousness itself with it before you even steal or behave in a greedy fashion, or what have you.

01:27:12

Yep. Absolutely right. Thank you, Cindy in Findlay, Ohio. And guess what, you have just won a free copy of Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian

01:27:21

Age by Rosaria Butterfield. Compliments of our friends at Crossway Books. Make sure we have your full mailing address.

01:27:27

So Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com can ship that out to you.

01:27:33

We have another listener. We have Columbiana in Bronxville, New York.

01:27:43

And Columbiana asks, you seem to be targeting Reformed Christians in regard to this whole idea of making homosexuality as being a palatable option.

01:27:58

Other than the revoice heresy, are there other things that we should be aware of in the

01:28:05

Reformed community? And has the PCA fully, denomination wide, repented and recanted of any association with revoice?

01:28:15

Wow, Columbiana, you have a long, good question. First of all, I must apologize if I'm trying to suggest that the primary problem is the

01:28:22

Reformed Church. I don't think the primary problem is the Reformed Church. I think the primary problem in terms of fueling the foolishness of side

01:28:31

B gay Christianity is actually the parachurch and the megachurch. And what

01:28:37

I'm trying to say, too, is that Reformed theology, especially the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg, should be your firewall against that.

01:28:46

But you are absolutely right to have raised the issue of the PCA. The PCA has not successfully exercised church discipline against its wolves.

01:29:02

And until it does, it will have a big problem. I am not a member of the

01:29:08

PCA. I'm a member of the RPCNA. So I can't really speak to any details on that.

01:29:16

But I think you're absolutely right. And it's just sort of unconscionable that Revoice found its launching pad in Greg Johnson's PCA church is just unconscionable.

01:29:26

And it was worse than just the conference, which was absolutely a violation of the Third Commandment and probably really all of the commandments as you worked your way through.

01:29:35

But I don't know if you heard about some of the things that he would also do in his foyer. He actually had a drag art show in his foyer where members of his church were mixing highballs and giving it to dudes gyrating in skirts.

01:29:48

And I mean, he should have been run out of town. And I'll tell you, in 2019,

01:29:54

I did an interview with Chris Gordon and had mentioned that I don't share the same religion as Greg Johnson.

01:30:01

And oh, his session got very upset with that. And so they had to have words with my session.

01:30:07

And I'll just tell you something. Anybody who thinks I'm bold, you should hear the preaching I sit under. So you know what

01:30:13

I'm saying? Like this is this is we are the church militant until we're the church triumphant. And the

01:30:19

PCA had better get its act together. Because the fact that Greg Johnson left is good.

01:30:25

But the fact that he wasn't driven out with the rest of the wolves is not good. Yes, I have very close friends who

01:30:33

I love and admire and respect who are pastors in the PCA who are totally disgusted and angered by all this.

01:30:42

And I know, well, I don't know, I'm not a prophet, but I have a very strong confidence that there will be a split in the not so distant future because I'd be amazed if there wasn't.

01:30:53

In fact, people routinely ask me for church recommendations in my audience.

01:31:00

And the days are long gone when I can just look at a denominational website and say, oh, look, there's a

01:31:06

PCA church five minutes away from this person and just take it for granted that this is a fine church.

01:31:13

I have to I have to not only look at the website, but I have to call the pastor. Yeah. And it's not just the

01:31:19

PCA, it's other churches. Yeah. Well, Chris, I had to take the PCA. It was you know, I'm a member of a

01:31:24

NAPARC church. So this is pretty serious. But I had to take the PCA link off of my website under the find a church section because I don't have time to go through and find out if this is a, you know, off the rails.

01:31:39

And part of the issue with the PCA is so many of the men have taken exceptions to the

01:31:45

Westminster standards. Some so many exceptions that our associate pastor says the only thing they agree on is the cover of the book.

01:31:52

Well, you know, that's that's a problem. Okay. We have

01:32:00

Terrence in Flower Mound, Texas. And Terrence asks, do most or all of the so -called side

01:32:12

B Christians view those in the side A category as lost or saved?

01:32:19

That's such a great question. And that's where there's so much duplicitousness because they would definitely see solidarity with side

01:32:29

A. And the best book to read on that subject is by M .D. Perkins. It's called

01:32:35

A Dangerous Affirmation. And he he shows how that's that very slippery point.

01:32:43

In fact, what side A and side B wanted to do is say, well, we're all gay together, which means we all see the same.

01:32:49

We're all the same, you know, ontologically, inherently. We just apply it differently.

01:32:55

And so I would say some in the side B camp would say probably the strongest you'd get from the side

01:33:02

B camp is that that's not God's best for you. And you know what?

01:33:07

In a time like right now where the LGBTQ plus lobby is going after our children, where people are losing their jobs for not bending the knee to the idol, quite frankly, if the best that a

01:33:22

Christian can say about sin is it's not God's best for you, I'm here to tell you you are a coward and a traitor.

01:33:30

And it's a good time to go get a new job selling insurance, do something else. Don't you know, it is just a dangerous thing.

01:33:37

So so that's a great question. M .D. Perkins is the guy that has done the best work in showing us that the whole thing begins in the wrong place and in the wrong places, this that if you begin, you say,

01:33:51

I'm a Christian, but I want to be missional. So I'm going to cede the moral language to the left.

01:33:56

I'm not going to use biblical terms like sin, abomination, grace, repentance.

01:34:03

I'm going to use a leftist terminology like cisgender, transgender pronouns.

01:34:10

You know, what happens is, is if you see the moral language to the left, you no longer have a biblical language to call people to what is, in fact, the true what it means to be truly converted.

01:34:24

So no longer is it I mean, you know, when we say things like, you know, you can be born again.

01:34:32

You can be born again and you can flee from your sin and you can have victory in Christ. Well, they would say, yeah, but not homosexuality.

01:34:41

And that's where you have to see it's just it's a it's a different gospel. Yes, that's a great question.

01:34:47

Thank you. And by the way, that book by N .D. Perkins was also among the books that the

01:34:54

American Family Association donated to the Iron Sherpa Zion Radio pastors luncheon just recently.

01:35:01

Yeah, it's a great book. I had an opportunity to review it for CBMW and I cannot recommend it highly enough.

01:35:09

Yes. And Dr. James R. White also highly recommended it. And let's see here, we have another question for you.

01:35:23

And let's see, we have Christine in Teaneck, New Jersey.

01:35:32

And Christine says, do you think that there is a plot by people in the so -called

01:35:39

LGBTQ community when they push for children being able to make decisions regarding their gender?

01:35:49

They're also really trying to promote the fact that children should be also able to have sex with whomever they choose without parent and parental consent, even if these are adults.

01:36:02

In other words, is the agenda really pedophilia behind the curtain?

01:36:08

Yeah, that's a great question. And here's the thing we know about sin. It goes inwards and outwards simultaneously.

01:36:18

And so as it goes outwards, it's going to gather with it the threads of other sinful movements.

01:36:26

And that's part of how an idol is created. And that's why I said that the quote -unquote trans child movement is all a bunch of groomers.

01:36:38

We're not allies. And I think what you want to see, though, in this is the spiritual dynamic, that this is a demonic force.

01:36:53

It is a spiritual battle. It isn't so much that people are sitting around boardrooms or kitchen tables plotting, but that they indeed are themselves deceived and they are deceivers.

01:37:10

And some of them are wolves, and some of those wolves are pastors. And so that's actually my problem and my greatest concern.

01:37:19

I expect there to be trials and tribulations in the world. I do not expect the church to be so unable to drive out the wolves.

01:37:28

But that's where we need to remember 2 Corinthians 10, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

01:37:38

I would add one more thing to that, though, because one of the things your question does show is that one big problem is that these sinful practices have become part of the civil magistrates.

01:37:50

Now, I am part of a denomination that believes in a doctrine called the mediatorial kingship of Christ.

01:37:57

And so when we go to school board meetings or when we speak before the legislature, we do not call the school board to bend the knee only in a personal way.

01:38:08

You know, we don't use, you know, it's not because they're not just sinning in their personal life.

01:38:15

The school board is sinning in its office. And so we will proclaim

01:38:22

Psalm 2. We will talk about the dangers of hanging millstones around the necks of children.

01:38:28

And we will call the school board to repent in their office as well as their personal life.

01:38:34

And this is where everybody gets really scared, right? You're like, oh, Rosaria, you people in the

01:38:39

RPCNA, you're awfully close to Christian nationalism. Well, actually, I would say calling the school board to repent of their sin is much more dangerous than Christian nationalism.

01:38:50

We're not talking about keeping liquor stores closed on Sunday. I'm talking about looking somebody in the eye and saying that.

01:39:00

And I have been, you know, I am at school board meetings. I do my part in this.

01:39:06

And I will tell you that the only time I've heard the word perverted used at a school board meeting was against me.

01:39:15

Okay. So yes, we do not fight the flesh, but we are called to proclaim the gospel to the magistrate.

01:39:27

And as that verse concludes, look at what is before your eyes. Christian, know what time it is.

01:39:34

Amen. And we have to go to our final break. Please, if you have any intention to send us a question, do it immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:39:42

We'll be right back. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed Church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

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01:47:57

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

01:48:04

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study

01:48:09

God's Word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

01:48:15

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the

01:48:20

Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

01:48:28

Bible. Hi there. My name is Jordan Tew, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

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Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor, and for good reason. We are

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Word of God, I invite you, go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

01:48:59

May God bless you. Welcome back. We have a question from Nelson in Battle Creek, Michigan.

01:49:06

Rosaria, thank you for your courageous, articulate testimony to Jesus Christ and to God's grace.

01:49:13

Can you identify what it was that triggered your own repentance and conversion?

01:49:20

Was there a specific conversation, line of discussion or experience that moved you toward repentance and conversion?

01:49:28

Obviously, you gave a summary of your testimony before, but I don't know if you narrowed it down to a specific triggering event.

01:49:39

Right, right. Great question. In some ways, I've written whole books on that, but I want to just bring it down to one point that the

01:49:48

Lord has really been bringing to my attention of late. First of all, Ken Smith is an amazing pastor, and there is no question that when

01:49:57

I was sitting in his house, we weren't just chatting. He was teaching me, and he would say things like, okay, today we're going to talk about an air and sea,

01:50:05

Rosaria, that kind of thing. Today, we're going to talk about the whole scope of the meta -narrative of the

01:50:10

Bible, Rosaria. So that was extremely helpful. But I will tell you that the singing of the Psalms was the single most means of grace that the

01:50:19

Lord used because the Psalms go so deep and because God can say things that if man said, it would be considered sinful.

01:50:26

But even in very sweet songs, I remember one time sitting in Ken Smith's house, and we were having a big dinner, and his family was there and a bunch of people from church.

01:50:36

I do not remember why, but I was feeling very pouty. I was feeling very victimized. We started singing

01:50:42

Psalm 23, and we got to the line about dining in the presence of my foes.

01:50:48

And I thought, oh, yeah, here I am, the only lesbian here, all these people, they're my enemies.

01:50:54

I know, seriously, right? And then the Holy Spirit convinced me that it was the

01:50:59

English professor at the table who got the whole point of view of the poem wrong, that I was the enemy at the table.

01:51:07

So actually realizing that I was Christ's enemy, I was my

01:51:12

Christian neighbor's enemy, was extremely powerful in my repentance.

01:51:18

There were other moments, though, in singing the Psalms. I remember one time in church, we were singing

01:51:24

Psalm 119, line 56, and that we sang something like, this is mine, because forever all thy statutes

01:51:31

I preserve. And the Holy Spirit reminded me, no, actually, you've hated the Bible, you've scorned it, you've mocked it, you've taught thousands of college students to do the same.

01:51:41

You've just sung condemnation unto yourself. So I would say the practice of singing

01:51:46

Psalms, even as somebody who was at first not converted and then converted, was extremely powerful.

01:51:55

And that's part of why we need to remember John 8, 31, 32, that it's the truth that sets people free, not just coddling them in their common grace.

01:52:06

A lot of the people who identify as gay or lesbian in the world, and especially around my neighborhood, lots of common grace.

01:52:14

That's not the point. So if you think you're being missional because you are having a dialogue with someone and kind of agreeing with their basic humanity and their common grace, that's actually going to solidify this idea that they don't need

01:52:30

Jesus. I needed Jesus because the Lord convicted me that I was his enemy. Amen.

01:52:37

And by the way, not only you, Nelson, but everyone who has submitted a question today to Rosaria has won a free copy of Five Lives of Our Anti -Christian

01:52:49

Age, Compliments of Crossway. And please give us your full mailing address so the

01:52:54

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, can ship that book out to you.

01:53:02

Let's see here. We have, I was just looking at the name.

01:53:09

Oh, here it is. Catherine in Canyon Rim, Utah. How do you walk the tightrope of being kind and demonstrating the love of Christ to the lover of your child who is homosexual, and at the same time not give any indication for a second that you're condoning their relationship?

01:53:34

Yeah, that's a great question. So the whole, I have two appendices in the back of this book, and one is an appendix that answers questions like that.

01:53:45

It's called How to Stay Connected with Your Prodigal Without Becoming Indoctrinated.

01:53:51

And first of all, what I would say is your child is the prayed for child. So the first thing

01:53:57

I would do is pray that they break up. I'm serious. Pray that they break up.

01:54:02

Pray that all unholy allegiances are removed from your daughter's life.

01:54:10

Be civil, be respectful, be kind. There's no reason not to be, but there's no reason to somehow feel like you're saddled with this woman.

01:54:20

You're not. I would pray that they break up. And if you want to be really gracious, pray that the Lord sends somebody else to go minister to her.

01:54:27

That would even be icing on the cake. But you pray for a breakup. You pray that they would betray each other.

01:54:33

You pray that your daughter, as a prayed for child, would realize that either love is love, as the gay rights movement says, or God is love, but it can't be both.

01:54:45

Amen. And as far as the actual practical way that you are verbally and physically reaching out to your child, your adult child, and his or her homosexual lover.

01:55:03

In fact, it could be even just heterosexuals living in sin. I'm not trying to equate the two sins, but I'm just saying they do have the similarity in that they will both send people to hell without the covering of Christ's blood.

01:55:19

But like for instance, are there certain things that you should not do when you are demonstrating love that may give both your child and his or her boyfriend, girlfriend, the indication, wow,

01:55:38

I guess we are being accepted in the way we're living. Well, I think you want to accept, by accepting the way they're living, this is reality.

01:55:48

Okay, you can accept that without approving of it. And what I would say a really good way to do that is to be almost off of social media or only using social media for objective things and having genuine time where you can talk to your daughter, remembering that sometimes if our words are as strong as our relationships, we can say hard things because it requires saying hard things.

01:56:20

This requires saying hard things, but your primary audience is your daughter. Amen. Well, we are out of time and I want you to have at least 90 seconds to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:56:35

Oh, me? Yes. Okay. All right. Well, I want you to know that these are hard times and you're not crazy.

01:56:47

If it feels like we're living at the ground zero of the Tower of Babel, it's because I think we in some ways are.

01:56:54

The culture has pressed upon us in ways that show us that we truly are the church militants before we are the church triumphant.

01:57:04

And so what I want you to know is that God's saving grace in my life was extremely powerful.

01:57:14

I thank the Lord for it every day, but I can't imagine how

01:57:19

I would be here without a faithful church and a faithful pastor and faithful elders.

01:57:25

And so this is no time to be sentimental. This is no time to be sitting in Andy Stanley's church saying, but you know, 30 years ago, it was great.

01:57:33

This is not 30 years ago. You need to see what time it is and you need to not use sentimentality to determine where you will be a member of a church.

01:57:43

You need a shepherd, not only to shepherd you with these hard questions, but also to slay the wolves, to keep them out of the pulpit, out of your church.

01:57:57

This is a call to arms for Christians, but before you can even step on the battlefield, you need to be in a

01:58:07

Bible -believing church with faithful elders. The elders in my denomination took a vow, vow six, that they would die for the doctrine.

01:58:17

They are not hirelings. If you are, if you have hirelings, let me tell you what, hirelings, like liberals, make very bad martyrs.

01:58:26

You need to flee and come join us in faithful reformed churches.

01:58:34

Amen. And one of those churches is the church where Rosaria's husband, Kent Butterfield, is the pastor.

01:58:40

Go to firstrpcdurham .org, firstrpcdurham .org,

01:58:48

if you live in or near Durham, North Carolina. And also don't forget about Rosaria's own website, rosariabutterfield .com,

01:58:56

rosariabutterfield .com. As always, it was a joy to have you on the program, and I eagerly look forward to having many return visits from you, as many as the

01:59:07

Lord will allow and as many as you are interested in. Thank you, Chris. I love hunkering down on your show, and I thank the

01:59:14

Lord for the ministry that you have and for all of the listeners that we've had today. Well, thank you and God bless.

01:59:21

And by the way, I want to remind all of our listeners, as I always do, I hope that you never forget for as long as you live that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater