October 13, 2023 Show with Rosaria Butterfield on “Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday the 13th

of October, 2023, and today is certainly not a day for bad luck for me

because I've got one of my favorite guests returning to the program and also one of my

favorite sisters in Christ, and I'm sure most of you will immediately recognize her name,

Rosaria Butterfield is on the program today, and Rosaria is a former

tenured professor of English at Syracuse University who was delivered from her

former enslavement to leftism, feminism, Marxism, and lesbianism, and has been made a new

creation in Christ, and she is the husband of Pastor Kent Butterfield of the First

Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham, North Carolina, where I had the honor, privilege, and joy

to visit recently and join Rosaria and her husband and their congregation in worship,

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Rosaria Butterfield.

Thank you, Chris, it's a pleasure to be here with you today.

And I was so thrilled that I got the invite from you to join you and your husband for.

Breakfast before we went to worship.

We weren't going to leave you to go violate the Lord's Day, the Sabbath, sir,

you know, I have a long list of sins I already have to repent of, I don't want to add that one,

thanks.

Well, I was thrilled to be there, and as I told you earlier, when James White heard about that, he said he

was jealous.

James can come, too, you know, it was a big casserole.

Yes, it was, it was delicious, too.

Well, for the sake of those who have not yet

heard your testimony, and it's probably a minority in my audience, but before we go into five

lies of our anti -Christian age, your new book, I would like you to give a summary version

of how you came to Christ, which is detailed in your first book, and also in many

YouTube and interviews on my show.

But if you could just give us a summary so our listeners know where you're coming from.

Yeah, yeah, well, in the late 90s, I was a professor at Syracuse

University, and my major field was English.

I'm a 19th century scholar.

But in many, many ways, I was recruited and mentored and then tenured to

help build the queer theory program.

Basically, I was there to make lesbianism look wholesome.

And I was in a serially monogamous lesbian relationships for about a

decade and had been a gay rights activist for about two.

And after my tenure book was written, I was free to write what I wanted to.

And so I was just curious, really, why do Bible -believing Christians not want to leave consenting adults alone?

That was the very quaint language we used, you know, some 30 years ago, right, to talk about gay rights.

And so I embarked on a book.

I wrote a couple of snarky things in a newspaper that caused a few dust

-ups.

Can't imagine that.

And among other people who wrote to me, the then pastor of the Syracuse

Reformed Presbyterian Church, Pastor Ken Smith, wrote me a letter.

And it was one of the kindest letters of opposition I've ever received.

And I thought, well, finally, somebody I could actually sit down with and talk with about this question.

Why do people like you hate people like me?

He seems reasonable.

And that really began two years of meals at his house and Bible study,

because I was an English professor.

I was not an anthropology professor.

I couldn't just go to a Gospel Coalition meeting and stick the microphone under somebody's mouth and say, hey,

why are you here?

How's the gift bag?

I actually had to read the Bible.

And so after reading through the Bible seven times, meeting with Ken Smith and Floyd Smith, and having, I don't know,

maybe 500 meals at their home.

You know, they love that many.

They love.

Well, I don't know.

I'm not a math major, but they loved me.

Well, they knew how to love their enemies.

That was a key thing that I learned.

But one of the things I just came under the conviction of was that the Lord Jesus Christ was real and risen and

true, and that that would be true whether I believed it or not.

And so when I committed my life to Jesus, I was not really sure how he was going to deal with my persistent

lesbian feelings and a myriad and a host of other sins or little

things like my job.

But I am now a pastor's wife and a mother and a

grandmother.

I have been married to my husband, Kent Butterfield, for almost as long as I've been a Christian,

which, of course, is God's great blessing to me.

And I can absolutely with great confidence say that the Lord has brought me to a

place of peace and blessing and comfort and gratitude that he

knows what is right and that when we live in the grace of God, it is a

very good thing indeed.

And so and that is it really in a nutshell.

That's the that's the nuttiest of the nutshell, Chris.

Well, praise God for that.

And do you happen to know offhand the website for the First Performed Presbyterian Church of

Durham?

Oh, boy, that would be so nice, wouldn't it?

I will start typing on my phone and I will forward it to you.

How's that?

Okay, well, I think I can pull it up right now.

In fact, while I'm looking for this, I'm going to announce.

Go ahead.

One of the things that we'll probably talk about at some point is that my husband, Kent, has

preached three sermons now on the sin of transgenderism.

And sometimes people are like, oh, could we find the link?

And so and I'm always sort of, you know, technology and I are not the best of friends.

Same here.

But it'll be on the website.

It'll be on sermon audio.

So when it comes up, those are the two places that you can find it.

And the website is First, and that's spelt F -I -R -S -T, not the number one with the S -T.

First R -P -C -D, I'm sorry, First R -P -C

-Durham dot org.

And Durham is spelt D -U -R -H -A -M, First R -P -C -Durham dot org.

And you can look for those sermons by Serious Husband, Kent Butterfield on

transgenderism, and I'm sure a host of other topics.

And it was a joy to worship in this church.

It was the first time I've ever worshipped in a Covenanter or Reform

Presbyterian Church of North America congregation where they sing exclusively the Psalms

and exclusively acapella.

I did go to a conference once at a Reform Presbyterian Church in New Jersey.

That was many years ago.

In fact, a couple of decades ago, at least.

But it was not during a traditional worship service that they had.

But I hope that any of you living near or in Durham, North Carolina will pay them a visit,

especially if you do not have a biblically faithful church home.

Or if you know of someone that lives in that area that you will recommend that church to them.

First R -P -C -Durham dot org.

Well, this book is, it shouldn't be controversial

amongst Christians, but it seems to have become a controversy among

not only Christians, but organizations that have become the go -to

places for many Bible -believing evangelicals.

When they heard about your book, Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age, there were people that

were intrigued and interested.

But then when they found out about the contents, they had to take a few steps back in their minds.

They had to anyway.

And one of them is an organization that I have actually

personally benefited by hearing some of their programs years ago.

When Dennis Rainey was in charge there.

But tell us about what's going on with family life today and their reaction to your book, Five Lies

of Our Anti -Christian Age.

I don't even know that that's the most interesting part of that story, because as you know, we are in a cancel

culture.

And I would say that the

impetus of this book, I think, is pretty threatening to

megachurches, to parachurch ministries, and to anybody who needs to be a hireling to

keep the lights on in your organization.

So I'm going to say family life today and crew.

I think after a year of this book being out, Chris, we're going to probably have a couple of

other folks we're going to want to talk about.

But I mean, you know, the book was prompted in part because moms and

grandmas and sisters in Christ were just curious and would come to me and say, Rosario, what in the world is going

on?

Why can't we major on the majors anymore?

You know, why can't we just major on the majors anymore?

If Christ isn't divided, why are we?

And so in trying to answer that question, I came up with three reasons that produced five lies.

And the thing about lies, well, first of all, first of all, I believed all these lies.

So the book starts out with my repentance.

And not only did I believe these lies as an unbeliever, I believed some of these lies as a believer.

So I don't have a leg to stand on.

I mean, you're looking at the lady who made the mess.

I'm just trying to clean it up in this book.

But one of the things about lies is that lies come with liars.

And I'm an English professor by training.

So I do this really radical, crazy thing called I cite my sources.

And that's where it seems like I stepped on some toes over at Family Life Today and Crew, because I

cited the source, Preston Sprinkle.

And I do pretty much call him a rank heretic in my book.

And I back it up with, all I do is quote him, you know.

But yes, that was not acceptable.

And that was not acceptable because his organization, which is currently featuring,

lovely little thing here, let's humanize the dialogue in the trans

conversation.

Let's not preach the gospel to people who are lost and in darkness as I once was.

Well, let's not do that.

Let's just dialogue with them.

But, you know, he writes, Preston Sprinkle writes the theology curriculum

for everybody over at Crew and Family Life Today.

So I think it was when you and I were having breakfast that Lord's Day, that had just happened.

So that was a few weeks ago.

That was a few weeks ago.

Chris, a bunch of other things have happened since then.

But yes, I think that if you are a hireling for a parachurch ministry that cannot

step us outside of

the false teaching that has become popular and promoted, sometimes understood

under the umbrella of Side B gay Christianity, sometimes understood as revoiced theology for our

Reformed listeners, all it simply is, is a papist rejection of

concupiscence.

So, you know, pick the category that you want to angle in on this.

That's all it is.

But if you're somebody who rejects the papist embrace of

concupiscence, does not believe that

once gay, always gay, rejects the idea that gay is immutable,

and believes fully and even experientially in the grace of

our Lord Jesus Christ to save sinners just like me and give you

victory to walk in the newness of life, if you believe all those things, you're going to have a hard

time keeping the lights on in some of these parachurch ministries.

So I've had some people ask me, well, what would you say to these big donors over at Crew?

And so here's what I would say.

Give your money to a good local church.

And if you're opposed to doing that, go sponsor a panda at the zoo.

That would be less of a sin on you than right now

supporting this kind of heresy because it's rank.

It's not, it's not subtle.

And that's the problem with the book.

The book actually just very clearly explains all that.

And so people get their, you know, get upset.

And like, for instance, specifically with Family Life Today and Crew, what is their connection with

Sprinkle?

Yeah, he writes, he oversees their theological curriculum for all of the

staff training.

And so the actual issue with the interview I did with them was that I, you know, you can't,

you know, we're not saying never, Rosaria, but this is a very complex subject.

Well, you know, sin makes more work for everybody.

So I suppose that it certainly has ruined families.

It certainly, you know, it has created a, you know, a very powerful,

you know, opening for wolves to take over pulpits and for Satan to, you know, redirect all kinds of things in the church.

But no, actually, it's not that complex.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Transgenderism is a sin.

They are both violations of the Tenth Commandment.

And they are both antagonists and rebellion against the created order,

which for our reformed listeners, we know that is called the Creation Ordinance.

It is an ordinance.

It is therefore a law.

So it's a very big deal.

But he, Preston Sprinkle's organization, is the ultimate side B,

papist, anti -cupid sense.

You know, you can be gay.

You're always going to be gay.

Just don't act on it.

But if you do, that's OK, too, because we understand we have grace.

It's, you know, we're going to bypass repentance to get to grace.

And so basically what they said is that they need to take at least six months so that they can really wrap their minds around

this very complex issue.

And I shared with them that I was absolutely convinced that the Lord had already wrapped his mind around this complex

issue and had shared that in his holy word.

And I think I'm off the Christmas card list for family life today.

Chris, I don't know.

What do you think?

You'll send me one.

It's OK.

Well, did I answer your question?

Did.

Yes, you did.

And it actually opened the doors for other questions that I will get to momentarily.

But it is quite interesting that the recent debate that I had

that I had arranged, I should say, between Dr. Gregory Coles, who is

a member of that organization led by Sprinkle

Center for Faith.

And is it Center for Faith and Sexuality?

What's the full center?

Don't forget that article adjective.

The Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender.

I only know that because Mary Weller over at Truth Exchange sent me the most recent,

you know, what do you call it? Seminar that you could attend called Humanizing

Dialogue in the Trans Conversation.

And it features a biological man who's wearing a very bad wig and

definitely needs the gospel.

Definitely needs our help.

We are Christians.

We're not barbarians like this.

We don't throw people away and feature them and platform them in their sin.

I can't imagine where I'd be.

But also the host of this seminar is no no one other than Dr. Gregory Coles.

And let me say something about Greg.

I like Greg.

I know Greg.

He likes you.

Yeah, I've sat down and talked to Greg.

I wish I quite frankly wish that when Greg was driving from Pennsylvania to

Idaho, he had taken a detour here.

And actually, Christopher Yuan and I and Greg were in a text message conversation for much of that ride.

I like Greg.

I like him a lot.

I'm sorry.

He's a likable.

He's a likable person.

Yeah, absolutely.

And his vice president of operations at that

organization is Chris Sprinkle, a woman who I'm assuming is either the daughter

or the granddaughter or some relation to the

founder.

But to just take a brief detour, I know that you watched the

live streaming of the debate that I arranged between Gregory Coles and Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega

Ministries on the theme, is gay Christian a biblically

acceptable identity for a member of Christ's.

Church?

And of course, Dr. Coles took the affirmative position and Dr.

White denied the thesis of.

The debate.

What were your thoughts on the debate?

Yeah, well, I was really glad that you all did that, first of all.

I think that was a very helpful, important debate.

I had a whole group of people here watching it, two RPCNA pastors, my husband, Kent Butterfield, and

our friend, Pastor Micah Ramsey from, well, you met him because you had lunch.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Eastvale RPCNA over in the Beaver Falls area of Pennsylvania, and then all of

our kids watched it as well.

So it was, you know, James has a real pastor's heart

because James is a much more experienced debater and he could

have muscled in ways that he absolutely didn't.

And I really thought that was very gracious and very kind.

Here's the thing.

I don't know how in the world you fight a sin if you need to keep it alive at the same time.

I mean, just genuinely, maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand this, but for me,

learning how to hate your sin without hating yourself was kind of the first

moment of clarity for myself as a Christian.

This isn't a small sin.

I mean, we aren't talking about a small sin.

Homosexuality is rebellion against the created order.

It is an antagonist to image bearing.

It's like, you know, stabbing yourself in the heart.

Proverbs 23, I think it's around seven, says, you know, as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is.

And when I was a lesbian, I was doing a lot of very bad thinkething.

And if I maintained that identity, and here's why, because what is at the root of

identity is a belief that it is not a sin to

desire that which God hates.

It is morally neutral.

It's hands off.

Some of the side beers will say it's like blindness or cancer.

You know, it's definitely part of the fall, but it's certainly not

a culpable sin.

But that's not at all what the Lord says about sexual sin.

And furthermore, what I thought was so interesting in the debate was, you know, because you know this, if you make one slight error in

your logic, then almost everything that comes after that is going to be so.

So and I was glad he brought this up.

Dr. White brought up a blog post that Greg had written for Preston Sprinkles

Center for blah, blah, blah, faith, sexuality and gender.

And in this blog post, he said, you know, if you gave me, offered me a

Tylenol or make me straight pill, I'd take the Tylenol.

Yeah, that's a shocking statement for somebody who professes to be an evangelical.

Well, but the only reason it's not shocking is because he is 10 years

downstream of such outrageously and and I'm just it's just rank

heresy that, you know, he's just parroting all the teachers he's had.

But he he you know, he mentioned Greg Johnson's book

and he said, but you know, but why would I want to get straight pill?

First of all, it doesn't work.

Greg Johnson showed, you know, 99 .9 of the people blah, blah, blah, you know, and I don't even know where he got

that number, but it's nuts.

That's crazy.

They never change.

Very interesting.

You know, you're dealing with an idol, and I think this is the other point of my book that makes people mad.

LGBTQ is not just a sin pattern that we're sort of, you know, dealing with and we're

watching it on the rise.

It is our nation's reigning idol.

And if the Lord should tarry, I believe that we will remember these days in the

infamy of Malik.

It is just that serious.

But part of the reason that Greg said he'd rather have a Tylenol and not a get straight pill is because he was working from

Greg Johnson's position that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equally sinful

and that that heterosexuality, all that is, is, according to Greg Johnson, is polyamory.

And what what Greg has, you know, went on to do in his book and a lot of

what Greg Coles was saying, Greg Johnson says in his book, one of the things that Greg Johnson

was confusing, of course, is that heterosexual sin is a terrible sin.

It's a sin against practice.

But homosexual sin is a sin against both pattern and practice.

And yet when I say things like that, this group charges me with

spiritual abuse.

And so Greg even writes it in his book.

He says, you know, I mean, he doesn't name me by name.

He could have would have been fine.

But, you know, that camp, that reformed camp that says that that really

actually change and victory, being victorious over your sins, no longer

being beholden to them.

That's Christian.

Being a born again Christian comes with change.

Now, are we glorified?

No, not until we're glorified.

But our sanctification is a powerful tool and it makes

powerful changes in the lives of the believer.

But Greg Johnson says in his book two things about the people who would say what I just said.

He said, on the one hand, we are spiritual abusers.

And on the other hand, he says, but they are brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I've spent a lot of time pondering that I'm almost more offended that he said that we're brothers

and sisters in Christ than I am, that I'm a spiritual abuser, because I could actually defend myself against the charge of spiritual

abuse.

But if you say I'm a brother and sister in Christ, what you're doing is you're saying, well, you know, it's not a big deal.

Like it's like it's just having victory over your sin.

It's just not a big deal.

Like you don't really need to do that.

You can be a Christian and be gay.

And again, I just I don't see it.

It's not biblical.

And what I have seen are lives absolutely, you know,

just railroaded into the ground.

Because if you can't fight your sin fairly soon, you will become enslaved

by it.

And that's the thing that Preston Sprinkle doesn't like to talk about.

He dedicates his books and he and he, you know, thanks all of these, you know, just

exemplary trans Christians and gay Christians.

And I happen to know the the, you know, the body count on that.

He doesn't name their last names, but I know who they are.

I've been in this conversation long enough.

I know, you know, it's very serious.

And this is the other issue that people need to think about.

We all need.

I need to think about it.

You need to think about it.

If we're going to talk about these things, we need to think about not only where we're going with them,

but we need to look back and see how the people who are following us are doing.

Are they in Christ?

Are they thriving in Christ?

Or are they in this kind of bereft, therapeutic nonsense with a

couple of Christian themes attached to it?

Walking the road to hell.

Because that's really serious.

And that's going to be accounted to those of us who spend too much time doing what you and I are doing right now and sitting here in front of microphones.

So it's a good caution for all of us.

But I thought it was a great debate.

The end was the part that was most painful to me when and it was a long debate.

And I know I know Greg was tired and I know James White was just getting geared up because

that's how he, you know, three hours is nothing.

You know, he's been he's been riding his bicycle for 42.

And, you know, so, you know, you know, James.

But James said to Greg, what about repentance?

And Greg was tired and he was sort of annoyed, I think, at that point with just how long this debate had

gone on.

And he just kind of threw his hands up and he was like, James, what am I supposed

to repent of?

And that's where you saw it.

And it was so sad.

That's where you saw it.

These people believe in a doctrine of grace.

And it's the it's a doctrine that says you can bypass repentance to get there.

Thomas Watson in his book, The Doctrine of Repentance, says faith in

Christ involves belief, repentance and belief.

You can't see belief, but you can see repentance.

And if you don't, you should not assume belief.

Amen.

And by the way, folks, if you want to get that book, you can go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services website,

CVBBS .com and ask for the Banner of Truth

publication of Thomas Watson's book on repentance.

We have to go to our first commercial break.

And if anybody wants to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at

gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

We will accept anonymous calls if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are someone who is struggling with the sin of homosexuality and you're not ready to

publicly identify yourself in regard to that issue.

We understand.

We will accept your anonymous question.

And perhaps you're even a member of a church that you believe is in great error in

regarding to the sin of homosexuality in some fashion.

And you obviously don't want to publicly throw your own pastor and church under the bus at this

point.

We understand that there will be reasons like that that would compel you to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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We are now back with my guest today, Rosaria Butterfield, author of the new

book, Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age.

I just wanted to read a plug from my friend, Dr. Joel R. Beege, president of

Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Rosaria Butterfield reminds us that the answer to these soul -destroying lies

remains the same as it always was, knowing and abiding in God's Word.

And I'm thrilled to announce that Dr. Joel Beege, in June of 2024, I think

it may be the very first Thursday of June, I'll have to make sure on that, but he's

going to be the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio free pastor's luncheon keynote speaker.

So I'm absolutely delighted that my old friend that I've known since the 1990s, Dr. Joel Beege, will be

doing that for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And so mark your calendars for the first Thursday in June, and I'll let you know if that was the correct date in the very near

future.

We have to just go through a couple of things since you brought them up so our listeners understand

some of the things you said.

Uh, for instance, you were talking about the theology in regard to

homosexuality that Preston Sprinkle and Dr. Gregory Coles endorse is actually

rooted in papal heresy.

And I happen to know that even when I have had conversations

with very conservative Catholic apologists, uh, anybody who knows

me well enough knows that I have arranged many debates between Dr. James R. White and also Dr. Tony

Costa, uh, and Roman Catholic apologists.

But when I have had private conversations with them, they will say that their church

teaches that if a Catholic man is going to seminary, he has a desire

to become a priest, he acknowledges that he is a homosexual.

They merely insist that he takes a vow of chastity and that there's nothing

innately wrong enough.

They do call it a disorder, but they say that there's nothing innately

wrong enough to prevent that man from being in the priesthood.

And hence, we have had for centuries all kinds of sexual immorality in the priesthood.

Uh, I mean, it did include heterosexual sin as well.

But today, today, the rampant sin that seems to be a

global phenomenon.

And it's interesting.

Most people categorize it as pedophilia, but in most cases, it's not

pedophilia.

It's priests molesting teenage boys.

So, but anyway.

Yeah, it's an interesting thing.

I think the actual language in the Roman Catholic catechism is that concupiscence is

not sin, but it inclines to sin.

Which, you know, and rightly so, the reformers.

And I mean, I think this is actually a, you could probably just say this is what, you know, you need to

lay the gauntlet down for and, you know, reform theology.

If it inclines to sin, it's sin.

But it's a very serious but subtle error.

And part of why it's subtle is the way that these people manage it.

And side B is not just about men struggling with an

indwelling sin that they didn't choose.

You know, I mean, there is that.

But it's also all of these megachurch pastors and parachurch ministries that are just

desperately trying to find a way to stay relevant in the world and not appear like to say anything

that might offend people.

And so the way that it plays out is they'll say this.

They'll say, you know, I have really tried to pray the gay away.

I've prayed, Lord, take this from me.

But he hasn't.

And so what you need to understand about me is I'm really a victim.

I'm a sufferer before I'm a sinner.

And, you know, again, you see a subtle but a really serious confusion.

When you are sinning in concupiscence, when you are desiring that which God

hates, you are not to say, God, take this desire away from me.

You are to repent of that desire, because even that desire is what

our Westminster Confession of Faith would say, a motion.

It is not sinless temptation.

And, you know, they all go to James 1 and they say, but this is lust

unrealized.

And I just listened to a wonderful sermon by Pastor Ram at the Dallas RPC,

where he talked about how that whole Romans 1 section is a little bit like the life cycle of

sin.

So in some ways, concupiscence or desire, it's the embryonic form

of sin.

But it's sin.

We wouldn't say an embryo is not a child.

It's actually sin.

And so if you want to deal rightly with your sin, you want to have victory over your sin.

You have to fight it when it's small.

If you wait till it's huge, you might not win,

not by yourself.

And so that's the other really sad thing.

These men won't fight maybe when they have a fighting chance.

Right.

And that's really sad.

And Gregory Coles went further because he was clearly saying, I don't know if he

used this exact phraseology, but he was clearly insinuating that he believed this homosexuality was

a gift from God because it prevented him from having heterosexual lust,

which in his opinion, the greater temptation in the world with

visual imagery and in the cinema and television and

magazines on the Internet is females dressed and behaving

seductively.

So therefore, he is kept safe from that.

I don't even know if that is true any longer.

I mean, yeah, I was thinking that myself.

And one does not want to do an Internet search on that to get the answer.

But yes, I think you're right.

I think all of that is downstream from a number of other ideas from people like Wes Hill

and Nate Collins and Greg Johnson.

They have some different issues, but Wes Hill would say that his homosexuality is a gift

because as a gay man, it allows him to appreciate beauty more than, you know, you thugs

out there who just don't appreciate beauty, apparently.

So that's Wes Hill's point.

Nate Collins is that it's not a sin because it's so

aesthetically beautiful to be gay.

And as long as you sublimate it, you're in good form.

But, you know, if you don't, you don't.

We have solidarity, you know, and then the newer the newer voices

in Revoice are even recommending things like, quote unquote, celibate gay unions.

And in a celibate gay union, you could even go get yourself gay married so that you can really

but just don't have sex.

But if you do, we understand, just as Andy Stanley said, that you just couldn't help

yourself because the Bible is wrong.

God is wrong when he said that he does not give you a command without the capacity to fulfill it.

That's just not true.

We're just being insensitive.

And so in some ways, it's sad to see Greg talk because, I mean, he's young enough to be my son.

So there's that.

But he is that second generation.

And, you know, we didn't we didn't deal with this rightly 10 years ago.

And now it's a it's it's big and it's ugly and it's taking hostages because that's what

Sin does.

Yes, in fact, when I was organizing this debate with Dr. White,

we mutually agreed and so did the folks who organized it with the

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society that this is really the more dangerous

sin in regard to homosexuality to believe that although we do not

involve ourselves physically in this, we believe that the innate

qualities of being a homosexual are completely acceptable to God.

The reason why it's more dangerous is it's like a Trojan horse and evangelicalism.

And you have evangelical churches inviting Dr. Coles and others to speak to their children at

churches all over the United States and perhaps globally.

Now, just so our listeners get a little bit more of an understanding, because some of this is new

language that is like puzzling a lot of us.

The whole thing with side A and side B, would it be correct to summarize it in saying that

the side A Christians so -called believe that

homosexuality is not a sin and as long as you have a

monogamous loving partner, that you could be not only a Christian

without fear of hellfire, but you could even be a pastor, an elder, a deacon,

and you can be married to someone of your same gender.

And I'm assuming some of them would say that that's the only way that they can fulfill their sexual desires is in

marriage to a same -sex partner.

And then the side B is those who believe, like Dr. Coles, that the physical

act of homosexuality is sin, but there is nothing sinful

innately about identifying yourself as a homosexual and believing that that is a,

quote, unquote, incurable state in life for even a

regenerate person.

Am I getting this right?

Kind of.

It goes a little deeper.

And this is actually part of why I wrote this book, because I had moms and grandmas and cousins and

aunts saying, I have lost my daughter, my granddaughter.

What is going on?

And so what I tell people all the time is you get to be sanctified in your ignorance.

You do not need a Ph .D. in this.

And so I tried to write the book very clearly so that people had a sense of what the ideas

are and where the pressure points are at the level of the church.

But here's the thing with garbage.

Throw it away.

Don't become an expert in garbage.

But the real issue with side B is the concupiscent side.

And it is the identity piece that's a little bit too fuzzy for me.

The actual side B position is you can desire sin.

Without sinning.

Yes.

Because your desire is not an action and you are actually a victim because

God and, you know, who's the big the big oppressors, of course, God, because he didn't take that away.

So you bypass repentance to get to grace and you rewrite the gospel.

And here's why this is if this were a little sidebar problem, you know, like they're just a

couple of men who call themselves gay over there out there in Idaho.

And then they came to the Midwest Reformation and they did it.

We wouldn't need to talk about this.

But the broad evangelical church and all of the parachurch ministries are doing exactly what we

talked about Crewe doing.

They're bending over backwards to embrace this ideology.

And this has become a problem in the broad evangelical church.

The broad evangelical church of our day is the liberal church of Machen's day.

And it is promoting a false gospel.

Right.

And in fact, I even heard years ago when I worked for Salem Media, the largest Christian

radio network in the world. Several people came up to me and

and I'm not going to mention the name of the very, very, very, very famous radio

evangelist because he may have repented of this really ridiculous and

heretical statement.

But I believe it was likely true since people independently of each other approached me

and said that they heard him say this, that Jesus at times

wanted to commit sin, but he never yielded to that temptation.

Well, wanting to commit sin is sin.

And that goes hand in hand with what you were just talking about.

If they really believe that wanting to commit sin and refraining from

bringing it to fruition is not sin, then they would have to admit that Christ would want to

have committed sin.

Well, and that does that's the issue of temptation.

And that's what they would say.

They would say, but Christ was tempted in all ways.

And so he understands my homosexuality.

He was tempted by, you know, he was a man.

Don't you think he lusted after women?

I mean, maybe women, maybe men.

It's so I mean, it's such a violation of the third commandment listening to these people talk that I almost hate to repeat

it.

But, you know, and this is where Denny Burke's work is really helpful.

I mean, he was one of the first ones to say there's a

difference between an internal and an external temptation.

And Christ was born without sin.

He was born without a sin nature.

And so that those temptations are real.

Those external temptations are real, like Potiphar's wife.

But if a temptation comes your way, it's a legitimate temptation.

It's not a sham.

But if your response is to be repulsed by it, to flee from it, right, you've

actually won.

And that's the kind of temptation that Jesus, you know, I mean, he experienced it in the garden,

right?

And he experienced it, you know, with with Satan in the wilderness.

And so but but to collapse those categories.

And that's what that's what, you know, this is a very sloppy theology

and really reformed thinkers have no business being sloppy with them.

But there are a couple of things that this sloppy theology that ties it all together.

Can you can you pick up on where you left off when we return from our midway break?

Absolutely. Okay.

And don't forget about the sloppy theology and the things that tie it together.

Yeah, I know.

I'm writing that down.

Folks, please be patient with us with the middle break.

It's always a little longer than the other breaks.

Write down your questions to Rosaria Butterfield and send them to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

He really loves hearing interviewed Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe

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If you visit, have them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and Mattai, in County Kildare, Ireland,

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Rosaria Butterfield, our guest today, and we

are discussing five lies of our anti -Christian age.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

You may remain anonymous if the question is personal and private.

Rosaria, if we could pick up where you left off before the commercial break, and I'd love to hear what you

have to say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So before we left off, I was saying that the five lies of our anti -Christian age all rely on

category mistakes that reformed Christians ought not make, and they ought not be seduced

by.

So the five lies are homosexuality is normal, pagan spirituality is kind, and

biblical Christianity is harsh.

The third lie is feminism is good for the church and the world.

The fourth lie is transgenderism is a normal gender variant for some people.

And the fifth lie is that modesty is an outdated cultural practice that holds women back and just

supports a kind of dangerous patriarchy.

And you see a lot of category mistakes that are shared across that list.

And again, reformed Christians ought not be believing this.

Basically, no Christians should.

Well, no Christians should.

But we have a confession.

We have the creeds and the confessions, and we are downstream from people who are great and brilliant

thinkers.

Our churches don't have a faith message that is three

sentences long.

You know what I'm saying?

So one of the biggest category mistakes is the idea that there's a difference between sex and

gender.

There's no difference.

There's no difference at all.

And in fact, to introduce gender as a new category of either

calling, oh, you know, I'm biologically female, but I'm called to be a whatever,

or a new category of personhood.

Well, I'm biologically female, but I'm really called to be a man.

And to separate sex from gender in this really false

way, in pursuit of this different sexual identity, different sense

of calling, is simply unnatural to the creation ordinance.

It's unnatural, and it's harmful for the purposes for which God made us.

So first of all, God is not some mad engineer.

He didn't build a bridge to nowhere.

He made women to be nurturing, and in the capacity of the creation

ordinance, to bear children, to care for them, to care for the home.

He made men to be strong providers.

And even World Magazine had an issue with me on that, like, well, we think Rosaria was really adding to

the Bible there.

Well, you can only say that if you think that there is a difference

between sex and gender, that's a category that you would make.

What's really interesting about that is that the sex generation was foundational

for feminism, and feminism is dead as a doornail right now in the world.

I mean, we don't even have Title IX anymore.

It's dead.

Transgenderism killed it.

And so the very kernel of the feminist paradigm that they loved

dearly was simply not strong enough to deal with a particular kind of

patriarchy they weren't ready for, transgender patriarchy.

And so it just raises the question for Christians, do you want biblical patriarchy or do you want transgender patriarchy?

Because you're going to get patriarchy.

You know, you got to pick it.

So that's one category mistake.

This isn't in any particular order.

The other category mistake is that there's no difference between vocabulary and ideology.

So, hey, you know, says Preston Sprinkle, I use transgender pronouns because, you know, it's

missional and it's kind.

And you know what?

Rosaria Butterfield used to say that stupid thing, too.

I've just repented of it.

I'm not smarter.

I've just repented of it.

That's a sin.

But part of the pressure that we have to face right now is that we are not talking about vocabulary.

We're not talking about just trying to have a private conversation with someone with a hefty load of

comorbidities and you're not trying to like escalate a crisis in the foyer of the house.

We're talking about ideology.

People are getting fired for not using transgender pronouns.

That's because we're not dealing with vocabulary.

Another category mistake is that question of of the need for allies.

I opened I think I said this on the show that that the early gay rights movement called for

allies to to agree with with those of us who were proclaiming this at the time that we

needed to leave consenting adults alone.

While the allies of the 30 years ago gay rights movement are the groomers of the

trans rights movement.

And you haven't heard consenting adults in decades.

That's because we have a new target.

It's called the transgender child, which is an invention of an evil age.

Christopher Rufo over it.

Manhattan Institute says that the transgender child is a totem, you know, a totem like a

boar's head.

You stick on a pole and everybody, all the barbarians march behind it.

And part of why we need and there are other category mistakes, too, but I'll just stick with those for right now.

Part of why we need to understand the importance of these distinctions is we live in a post

-Obergefell world.

We live in a world that not only declared gay marriage to be the legal rights in all of

the states, but also declared that to deny someone's LGBTQ plus dignity

is harm.

It's called the dignitary harm clause.

And then furthermore, the Bostock decision came in 2020 when we were all busy covering our faces with masks or

some of us were and and, you know, disinfecting our countertops.

And that decision declared that LGBTQ plus should be written into

the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

And so it was based on Bostock that you now have in every government

school in the United States, even the government school where your granddaddy was the

principal and you were spanked or whatever, that you have something called an

anti -bullying policy that has transgender legislation tied to it,

sending your children to public school.

So saying something like what the Gospel Coalition did recently by saying, you know, public schools are great.

Jen Wilkins said that you're going to get a first class, excellent

education.

Well, I don't know why the Gospel Coalition doesn't know what time it is, but they need to know what time

it is.

And the rest of us need to know what time it is also.

And I'll tell you, I speak before school board meetings on the subject of

transgenderism and parental rights, which is a little bit like doing rounds at the

psych ward during a full moon, you know.

So I'm telling you, no, sending your child to Philistia for education right now

is one of the most dangerous things that you could entertain on planet Earth.

So having your categories clear, knowing what the pure word of God is, is

really important because it's not easy.

See, that's the point.

You might be called to die for this gospel that you love and for this Lord that has died for you.

These are not easy days and you need to know that.

And all of the fanfare and the glitter at

these broad evangelical conferences and almost this like hyper

need for megachurch pastors to tell you that, oh, no, no, I mean, I can't tell you how many megachurch

pastors say to me, oh, Rosaria, you know, you've been red piled.

Why, you know, why, you know, don't you know, don't you know that God is not constrained by

space and time?

And I'll say, yes, I do know that.

But I also know that you are and I am because we live in a place in time

and to be effective as Christians, you need to know what time it is.

And so if this one takeaway that I'd want you to hear, the one reason that I felt it was necessary to write another book,

because I declared everybody after gospel comes to the house, I'm done.

But it was because I don't think we know what time it is and the reformed churches

need to not be seduced by the nonsense coming out of broad evangelicalism because the broad

evangelicalism of our day is the liberal church of nations.

And you need to see it just in those stark terms.

Yes.

And what Rosaria is referring to, if you are unfamiliar with nation's classic book, Christianity and Liberalism,

she's speaking of what Machen and others were battling during the fundamentalist modernist

controversy in the earlier part of the 20th century.

And I was just thrilled to receive three copies of

Christianity and Liberalism.

I believe it was Ligonier Ministries that donated 100 copies to our pastors launching that we gave

away.

But I'd like to go to some listener questions before we run out of time and don't have the

time to take any of them.

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio.

For the sake of some listening who may not thoroughly understand why

homosexuality is a sin, could you please give Bible references and

expound on them if you would?

Absolutely.

But what I'd like to do, I think people are familiar with the references that use words like

it's an abomination or I think the clearest maybe articulation in a most

discreet way is Romans 1.

And so I think that those are important and we can certainly get there.

But I want to start at the beginning because all of the New Testament admonitions

against homosexuality are actually anchored in the Old Testament.

In two particular places.

And that's why we need to remember the seeds of the gospel are in the garden.

You know, no, no, Adam, no Christ.

So you can't be, you can't do it.

Andy Stanley said, you know, he wanted to do, I think, 10 years ago.

And that's, you know, unhitched, right?

The Old Testament from the New Testament.

Or if you do that, you can just say, I am a heretic.

I am unhitching the Old Testament from the New Testament.

But the first place you want to go is the creation ordinance.

It's Genesis 127.

And what it means to be made in the image of God as male or female.

And the reason that this is important is you are called to grow in your creation

ordinance, foundational reality.

That is just truth.

That is who you are.

And so you are called to grow there.

And our confessions talk about growing in the knowledge, the righteousness and the holiness of God.

Transgenderism and homosexuality are part of the world, the flesh and the devil.

If you grow in those things, you are growing against the image of God.

So when you hear people like Preston Sprinkle or, you know, even Greg Coles talk about,

I'm made in the image of God as a gay man.

That is absolutely, that's rank heresy.

But what's important to remember, and I think, you know, this is, you know,

we are not barbarians.

We are Christians.

And what that means is we don't throw anyone away.

We completely understand that after the fall, there will be people who will desire these things.

You know, the old saying in the gay rights movement was that homosexuality meant who you want to go to bed with.

And transgenderism meant who you want to go to bed as.

OK, so that I mean, I'm sorry to, you know, impart something from my 30 year old, you know, from 30 years ago.

But but I think that is actually relevant to see how anti -gospel that is.

But we don't throw people away.

We understand that people will be, you know, born in Adam with desires that God hates.

And some of those people will go on to mutilate themselves.

And they will either mutilate themselves by having a kind of aggressive sex that literally

renders them in depends as you know, and not as older people, or they will mutilate

themselves by having hormonal and surgical

mutilations upon their body that will also render them medical patients for life.

And we are not barbarians.

We don't hold up these people and say you are an example of what not to be.

We hold out the gospel and we say you repent and you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And in the new Jerusalem, in the resurrection of your body, it will be

glorified and you will not have been able to mock God.

And some of and you know, we are dealing not only with with the transgender

movement here and the need for that message, but you just imagine meeting

parents who are supporting the castration of their 14 year old son.

Astonishing.

It is astonishing.

But these people need the gospel.

So my my scripture versus I mean, my favorite place to always go is Romans one.

But I want to rank I want to anchor it where where where Paul anchors Romans

and that's in the the creation ordinance, Genesis 127, and also

the the the 10th commandment, thou shalt not covet, because that's the other thing that

these sexual fetishes, what fuels them is a sense of envy and covetousness.

And the Christian response is to grow in the the grace of

contentment, which again, the Paul talks about that he is he has learned in all stations to be

content.

That's not resignation.

It's something radically different.

So I hope I answered your question.

And I hope my book answers your question.

I actually do go through the quote unquote clobber versus and and some of those other things

in the book.

By the way, wasn't it really a home run, if that's appropriate to use that phrase,

when Dr. White brought up covetousness in the debate with Gregory Coles?

Because it's not an action.

It's a state of mind and heart.

And that is what Gregory Coles was trying to use to

justify about homosexuality, that it's some kind of innate condition of the heart and

mind.

And as long as we don't do anything physically with it, but covetousness itself with it before you

even steal or behave in a greedy fashion or what have you.

Yep.

It's still right.

Thank you, Cindy and Finley, Ohio.

And guess what?

You have just won a free copy of Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age by Rosaria Butterfield.

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We have another listener.

We have Columbiana in Bronxville, New York.

And Columbiana asks, you seem to be targeting reformed Christians in regard

to this whole idea of making homosexuality as being a

palatable option.

Hmm.

Other than the revoice heresy, are there other things that we should be aware of in the reform

community?

And has the PCA fully, denomination wide, repented and

recanted of any association with revoice?

Wow.

Columbiana, you have a long, good question.

First of all, I must apologize if I'm trying to suggest that the primary problem is the reformed church.

I don't think the primary problem is the reformed church.

I think the primary problem in terms of fueling the foolishness of side B gay Christianity is

actually the parachurch and the megachurch.

But, and what I'm trying to say too, is that reformed theology, especially the Westminster Confession of Faith in the

Heidelberg should be your firewall against that.

But you are absolutely right to have raised the issue of the PCA.

The PCA has not successfully

exercised church discipline against its wolves.

And until it does, it will have a big problem.

I am not a member of the PCA.

I'm a member of the RPCNA.

So I can't really speak to any details on that.

But I think you're absolutely right.

And it's just sort of unconscionable that Revoice found its launching pad in Greg

Johnson's PCA church is just unconscionable.

And it was worse than just the conference, which was absolutely a violation of the third commandment and probably

really all of the commandments as you worked your way through.

But I don't know if you heard about some of the things that he would also do in his foyer.

He actually had a drag art show in his foyer where members of his church were mixing high balls and

giving it to dudes gyrating in skirts.

And I mean, he should have been run out of town.

And I'll tell you, in 2019, I did an interview with Chris Gordon and had mentioned

that I don't share the same religion as Greg Johnson.

And oh, his session got very upset with that.

And so they had to have words with my session.

And I'll just tell you something.

Anybody who thinks I'm bold, you should hear the preaching I sit under.

So you know what I'm saying?

Like, this is this is we are the church militant until we're the church triumphant.

And the PCA had better get its act together, because the fact that Greg Johnson left

is good.

But the fact that he wasn't driven out with the rest of the wolves is not good.

Yes, I have very close friends who I love and admire and respect who are pastors in the PCA who are

totally disgusted and angered by all this.

And I know, well, I don't know.

I'm not a prophet, but I have a very strong confidence that there will be a split in the not so

distant future, because I'd be amazed if there wasn't.

In fact, people routinely ask me for church recommendations in my audience.

And the days are long gone when I can just look at a denominational website and say, oh, look,

there's a PCA church five minutes away from this person and just take it for granted that this is a

fine church.

I have to I have to not only look at the website, but I have to call the pastor.

Yeah, and it's not just the PCA.

It's other churches.

Yeah.

Well, Chris, I had to take the PCA.

It was, you know, I'm a member of a NAPARC church, so this is pretty serious.

But I had to take the PCA link off of my website under the find a church section because I don't have

time to go through and find out if this is a, you know, off the

rails.

And part of the issue with the PCA is so many of the men have taken exceptions to the

Westminster standards.

Some so many exceptions that our associate pastor says the only thing they agree on is the cover of the book.

Well, you know, that's that's a problem.

OK, we have Terrence in Flower Mound, Texas,

and Terrence asks, do most or all of the so -called Side

B Christians view those in the Side A category as lost or

saved?

That's such a great question.

And that's where there's so much duplicitousness, because they would definitely see

solidarity with Side A.

And the best book to read on that subject is by M .D. Perkins.

It's called A Dangerous Affirmation.

And he he shows how that's that very slippery point.

In fact, what Side A and Side B wanted to do is say, well, we're all gay together, which means we all see the same.

We're all the same, you know, ontologically, inherently.

We just apply it differently.

And so I would say some in the Side B camp would say probably the strongest you'd get from the

Side B camp is that that's not God's best for you.

And you know what?

In a time like right now where the LGBTQ plus lobby

is going after our children, where people are losing their jobs for not bending the knee to the idol,

quite frankly, if the best that a Christian can say about sin is it's not God's best for

you, I'm here to tell you, you are a coward and a traitor.

And it's a good time to go get a new job, selling insurance, do something else.

Don't you know, it is just a dangerous thing.

So so that's a great question.

M .D. Perkins is the guy that has done the best work in showing us that

the whole thing begins in the wrong place.

And in the wrong place is this, that if you begin, you say, I'm a Christian, but I want to be

missional.

So I'm going to cede the moral language to the left.

I'm not going to use biblical terms like sin, abomination, grace,

repentance.

I'm going to use a leftist terminology like cisgender, transgender

pronouns.

You know, what happens is, is if you see the moral language to the left, you no longer have a

biblical language to call people to what is, in fact, the true

what it means to be truly converted.

So no longer is it I mean, you know, when we say things like, you know, you can be

born again, you can be born again and you can flee from your sin and you can have victory in Christ.

Well, they would say, yeah, but not homosexuality.

And that's where you have to see it's just it's a it's a different gospel.

Yes, that's a great question.

Thank you.

And by the way, that book by M .D. Perkins was also among the books that the American

Family Association donated to the Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon just

recently.

Yeah, it's a great book.

I had an opportunity to review it for CBMW and I cannot recommend it highly

enough.

Yes, and Dr. James R. White also highly recommended it.

And let's see here.

We have another question for you.

And let's see, we have Christine

in Teaneck, New Jersey, and Christine says,

do you think that there is a plot by people in the so -called LGBTQ

community when they push for children being able to make

decisions regarding their gender?

They're also really trying to promote the fact that children should be also able to have sex

with whomever they choose without parent and parental consent, even if these

are adults.

In other words, is the agenda really pedophilia behind the curtain?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And here's the thing we know about sin.

It goes inwards and outwards simultaneously.

And so as it goes outwards, it's going to gather with it the threads of other

sinful movements.

And that's part of how an idol is created.

And that's why I said that the quote unquote trans child movement is

all a bunch of groomers.

We're not allies.

And I think what you want to see, though, in this is the

spiritual dynamic, that this is a

demonic force.

It is a spiritual battle.

It isn't so much that people are sitting around boardrooms or kitchen tables

plotting, but that they indeed are themselves

deceived and they are deceivers.

And some of them are wolves and some of those wolves are pastors.

And so that's actually my problem and my greatest concern.

I expect there to be trials and tribulations in the world.

I do not expect the church to be so unable to drive out the wolves.

But that's where we need to remember Second Corinthians 10, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the

flesh, but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

I would add one more thing to that, though, because one of the things your question does show is that one big problem

is that these sinful practices have become part of the civil magistrates.

Now, I am part of a denomination that believes in a doctrine called the mediatorial kingship of

Christ.

And so when we go to school board meetings or when we speak before the legislature,

we do not call the school board to bend the knee only in a personal way.

We don't, you know, we don't use, you know, it's not because they're not just sinning in

their personal life.

The school board is sinning in its office.

And so we will proclaim Psalm 2, we will talk about the dangers of

hanging millstones around the necks of children, and we will call the school board to repent in their office

as well as their personal life.

And this is where everybody gets really scared, right?

That's you're like, oh, Rosaria, you people in the RPCNA or, you know, you're awfully close to Christian

nationalism.

Well, actually, I would say calling the school board to repent of their sin is much more dangerous than Christian

nationalism.

We're not talking about keeping liquor stores closed on Sunday.

I'm talking about looking somebody in the eye and saying that.

And I have been, you know, I am at school board meetings.

I do my part in this.

And I will tell you that the only time I've heard the word perverted used at a school board meeting was

against me.

Wow.

OK, so, so, yes, we do not fight the

flesh, but we are called to proclaim the gospel to the civil magistrate.

And as that verse concludes, look at what is before your eyes.

Christian, know what time it is.

Amen.

And we have to go to our final break.

Please, if you have any intention to send us a question, do it immediately to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

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Welcome back.

We have a question from Nelson in Battle Creek, Michigan.

Rosaria, thank you for your courageous, articulate testimony to Jesus Christ and to

God's grace.

Can you identify what it was that triggered your own repentance and conversion?

Was there a specific conversation, line of discussion, or experience that moved you

toward repentance and conversion?

Obviously, you gave a summary of your testimony before, but I don't know if you narrowed it down to

a specific triggering event.

Right, right.

Great question.

In some ways, I've written whole books on that, but I want to just bring it down to one point that the Lord has

really been bringing to my attention of late.

First of all, Ken Smith is an amazing pastor, and there is no question that when I was sitting in

his house, we weren't just chatting.

He was teaching me, and he would say things like, okay, today we're going to talk about an errancy, Rosaria, that kind of thing.

Today we're going to talk about the whole scope of the metanarrative of the Bible, Rosaria.

That was extremely helpful.

But I will tell you that the singing of the Psalms was the single most means of grace that

the Lord used because the Psalms go so deep, and because God can say things that if man said, it would be considered

sinful.

But even in very sweet songs, like I remember one time sitting in Ken Smith's house, and we were

having a big dinner, and his family was there, and a bunch of people from church.

I do not remember why, but I was feeling very pouty.

I was feeling very victimized.

And we started singing Psalm 23, and we got to the line about dining in the presence of my

foes.

And I thought, oh, yeah, here I am, the only lesbian here, all these people, they're my enemies.

I know, seriously, right?

And then the Holy Spirit really convinced me that it was the English professor at the table who got the

whole point of view of the poem wrong, that I was the enemy at the

table.

So actually realizing that I was Christ's enemy, I was my Christian

neighbor's enemy, was extremely powerful in my repentance.

There were other moments, though, in singing the Psalms.

I remember one time in church, we were singing Psalm 119, line 56, and that we sang

something like, this is mine, because forever all thy statutes I preserve.

And the Holy Spirit reminded me, no, actually, you've hated the Bible.

You've scorned it.

You've mocked it.

You've taught thousands of college students to do the same.

You've just sung condemnation unto yourself.

So I would say the practice of singing Psalms, even as somebody who

was at first not converted and then converted, was extremely powerful.

And that's part of why we need to remember John 8, 31, 32, that it's the truth that sets people

free, not just sort of coddling them in their common grace.

A lot of the people who identify as gay or lesbian in the world, and especially around my neighborhood,

lots of common grace.

That's not the point.

So if you think you're being missional because you are having a dialogue with someone and

kind of agreeing with their basic humanity and their common grace, that's actually going to solidify

this idea that they don't need Jesus.

I needed Jesus because the Lord convicted me that I was his enemy.

Amen.

And by the way, not only you, Nelson, but everyone who has submitted a

question today to Rosaria has won a free copy of Five Lies of Our Antichristian

Age, Compliments of Crossway.

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Let's see here.

We have, I was just looking at the name.

Oh, here it is.

Catherine in Canyon Rim, Utah.

How do you walk the tightrope of being kind and demonstrating the

love of Christ to the lover of your child who is

homosexual and at the same time not give any indication for a second that

you're condoning their relationship?

Yeah, that's a great question.

So the whole, I have two appendices in the back of this book.

And one is an appendix that answers questions like that.

It's called how to stay connected with your prodigal without becoming indoctrinated.

And first of all, what I would say is your child is the prayed for child.

So the first thing I would do is pray that they break up.

I'm serious.

Pray that they break up.

Pray that all unholy allegiances are removed from your daughter's life.

Be civil, be respectful, be kind.

There's no reason not to be, but there's no reason to somehow feel like you're saddled with

this woman.

You're not.

I would pray that they break up.

And if you want to be really gracious, pray that the Lord sends somebody else to go minister to her.

That would even be icing on the cake.

But you pray for a breakup.

You pray that they would betray each other.

You pray that your daughter is a prayed for child would realize that either love is love, as

the gay rights movement says, or God is love.

But it can't be both.

Amen.

And as far as the actual practical way that you

are verbally and physically reaching out to

your child, your adult child, and his or her homosexual lover, in fact, it could

be even just heterosexuals living in sin.

I'm not trying to equate the two sins, but I'm just saying

they do have the similarity in that they will both send people to hell without the covering of Christ's blood.

But like, for instance, are there certain things that you

should not do when you are demonstrating love that may give

both your child and his or her boyfriend, girlfriend the

indication, wow, I guess we are being accepted in the way we are living?

Well, I think you I think you want to accept like by accepting the way they're living, like this is reality.

OK, you can accept that without approving of it.

And what I would say a really good way to do that is to be almost

off of social media or only using social media for kind of objective

things and having genuine time where you can talk to your daughter,

remembering that sometimes if our words are as strong as our relationships, we can say hard things because

it requires saying hard things.

This requires saying hard things.

But your primary audience is your daughter.

Amen.

Well, we are out of time, and I want you to have at least 90 seconds to summarize what

you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Oh, me?

Yes.

OK, all right.

Well, I want you to know that these are

hard times and you're not crazy.

If it feels like we're living at the ground zero of the Tower of Babel, it's because I think we in some ways are

the culture has pressed upon us in ways that show us that we truly are the church

militants before we are the church triumphant.

And so what I want what I want you to know is that God's saving grace in my

life was extremely powerful.

I thank the Lord for it every day.

But I could not I can't imagine how I would be here without a faithful church and a faithful

pastor and faithful elders.

And so this is no time to be sentimental.

This is no time to be sitting in Andy Stanley's church saying, but, you know, 30 years ago, it was great.

This is not 30 years ago.

You need to see what time it is and you need to not use sentimentality to determine where

you will be a member of a church.

You need a shepherd not only to shepherd you with these hard questions, but

also to slay the wolves, to keep them out of

the pulpit, out of your church.

So what I mean, this this is a call to arms for Christians.

But before you can even step on the battlefield, you need to be in a Bible believing church

with faithful elders.

The elders in my denomination took a vow, vow six, that they would die for the doctrine.

They are not hirelings.

If you are if you have hirelings, let me tell you what hirelings like liberals make very bad

martyrs.

You need to flee and come join us in faithful reform churches.

Amen.

And one of those churches is the church where Rosaria's husband, Kent Butterfield, is the pastor.

Go to FirstRPCDurham, D -U -R -H -A -M dot org,

FirstRPCDurham .org if you live in or near Durham, North Carolina.

And also don't forget about Rosaria's own website, RosariaButterfield .com, RosariaButterfield

.com.

As always, it was a joy to have you on the program, and I eagerly look forward to having many

return visits from you, as many as the Lord will allow and as many as you are interested in.

Thank you, Chris.

I love hunkering down on your show, and I thank the Lord for the ministry that you have and for all of the

listeners that we've had today.

Well, thank you, and God bless.

And by the way, I want to remind all of our listeners, as I always do, I hope that you never forget

for as long as you live that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.