Aug. 18, 2015 Show with Ron Glass & Michael J. Vlach on “Pre-Trib / Premill” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on

this 18th day of August 2015, and today is day number two

of our end times marathon that began yesterday with Amillennialism.

Today we are going to be discussing pre -tribulational premillennialism.

Tomorrow we are going to be, God willing, addressing historic premillennialism.

On Thursday we are going to be addressing the pre -wrath rapture view, and on

Friday we will begin a two -day series or two -part

program on post -millennialism.

On Friday we will begin with the traditional post -millennial view, and on Monday

the 24th we intend to have a program addressing theonomic or

reconstructionist post -millennialism.

But it is my honor and privilege to have with me today a very dear friend of mine, a man whom

without Iron Sharpens Iron would not be possible, and that is Pastor Ron

Glass of Wading River Baptist Church in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

Pastor Glass is a former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology,

and the website for Wading River Baptist Church is wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Ron Glass.

Chris, it's a delight to be with you.

Yes, and the delight is all mine and my listeners, I'm sure.

And well, let's begin since we are discussing pre -tribulational premillennialism,

the most dominant view held by dispensationalist Christians.

Your eschatological view is known as pre -tribulational premillennialism, so obviously this refers to something

that is going to happen before events called the tribulation and the millennium.

So what are these two events, and what exactly do you believe will occur prior to these two events?

Unprecedented.

So

when

we

talk

about

pre

-tribulational

premillennialism...

So just to clarify in regard to the return of Christ from what you said,

do you believe in only one return of Christ, as amillennialists and postmillennialists

believe, or are there two returns of Christ that we now wait for, one secret and

invisible to those on earth who are lost,.

And one that will be

visible

to all?

Well,

we

will

gather together...

And to also clarify to my listeners, because I know I may have some of my postmillennialist friends

already in disagreement with my description of them, some of them do believe in more than one return of

Christ, but I was, in reference to the judgment on the temple in A .D. 70

and so on, but I was speaking specifically of the one

visible physical return of Christ at the end of all earthly history that the amills and

postmills agree upon.

But if only lost individuals are left behind on earth

after the church is raptured, what will be the means by which these lost people hear the gospel?

All

right,

this

is

it.

Here's

what

he

does.

He

says,

sooner

that

they

may

be seen,

once

they

see

that

they

also

have a

long

target,

many

will be Gentiles.

Gentiles will...

I'm going to give our email address for those of you who would like to join the conversation with a question of

your own.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N

at gmail .com.

Please give your first name at least and the city and state where you reside and the

country where you reside if you are outside of the United States.

ChrisArnzen.

Yes.

Chris, I'm sorry.

I don't want to broad brush here.

We know that each of these eschatological views that we are presenting over the following

five days, six days in total, there's going to be listeners who say that their view has not

been represented as they see things.

And of course, that would be impossible to keep everybody happy because there are differences of opinion and different

views, even within each camp of eschatology.

But some who identify themselves as pre -tribulational, pre -millennialists or dispensationalists

believe that there will be a change in the gospel itself during the Great Tribulation, that salvation will

no longer be by grace alone through faith alone, and that it will be required of men to perform good

deeds as a means to inherit eternal life.

And as Peter Ruckman put it in his Millions Disappear, before the rapture, you

could have been saved by grace through faith plus nothing, as in Ephesians 2, 8 through 9.

But one minute after the rapture took place, you must get out the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule and start

learning them, because you're going to be judged by them, as in Matthew 25, 31 through

46.

And he later says, it will take faith in Christ's shed blood plus works,

exactly as in the Old Testament, it took faith and shed blood and works.

Do you agree or disagree with that scenario?

Well,

let

me

just

say that as

always,

today,

we

look

back

as a

gross

Ruckman.

We do have a listener, Dean in Santa Rosa, California, who asks,

could you cite a single New Testament text that explicitly teaches that Jesus will

remove his people to heaven.

For

seven

years?

No, I

say

this,

but I tell you,

all

right,

so

what

I'm

reading

again, even him, that is with Jesus, those who have fallen

asleep and who have died during this age will come with him.

For this we say, the Lord

himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice

of the

archangel who

are alive and

remain when he

said in the upper

room.

Now,

what about the

three

chronology that is

outlined

in Revelation?

We're

going

to be

going to

a break

right

now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with questions for our guests, submit them to

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at

gmail .com, and please at least give your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you

reside if you are outside of the USA.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church and our discussion on

pre -tribulational premillennialism during our six -day eschatological.

Marathon.

Thriven Financial is pleased to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

While others see money as a goal, Thriven sees it as a tool for serving God, family, and

community.

For more than a century, Thriven has helped its nearly two and a half million Christian members make financial

decisions that reflect their values while also helping them live generously.

Find out more by contacting me, Mike Gallagher,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Thriven Financial, connecting faith and finances for good.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity, that's the Thriven story.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable

Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known

for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com.

Tired of bop store.

Christianity,.

Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service

times.

631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, it is day number two of our End Times Marathon, which

began yesterday and which will conclude a week from yesterday on Monday, the 24th of

August.

Today, our guest for the first hour has been Ron Glass, pastor of Wedding River

Baptist Church and former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology.

His website is wrbc .us.

Our second hour, in just about a half hour from now, will be featuring our

guest Michael J. Vlock.

That's V as in victory, L -A -C -H.

He's the associate professor of theology at the Master's Seminary, and

he is also the president of theologicalstudies .org and the author of six books.

He will be taking up the mantle when Pastor Ron leaves to continue

the discussion in defense of pre -tribulational premillennialism.

And again, our email address, if you have questions, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And let me just say one more time quickly that if you live in Suffolk County, Long Island, or you have friends or family that do,

or if you are ever planning to visit the Hamptons or anywhere in the eastern Suffolk County,

please, I urge you to pay a visit to Wedding River Baptist Church, pastored by our guest Ron Glass.

He is a powerful preacher.

I've heard many, many of his sermons because I edit his sermons for another program that he

hosts, the River of Life broadcast, and you can find out all of that information on

wrbc .us.

Going back to our discussion, Pastor Ron, who or what is the beast,

the false prophet,.

And

the

antichrist?

Well,

there

were

ways

of

governing

that.

And

who or

what

is

the

whore

of Babylon or the

harlot?

Well, in

light

of what I've

just

said, I think

that the...

Do you believe Zechariah 13, 8 warns of a future

holocaust for the Jewish people, worse than the Nazi holocaust, during which two -thirds of

the Jewish population in Israel will perish?

And if so, why are so many dispensationalists excited over Jews returning.

To

Israel?

That

question,

Isaiah

chapter

40, verse 1, iniquity has been

removed,

that she

has

received a

judgment,

Matthew

chapter

20,

and so the

Jewish regard to how they...

So it's going to

be a judgment.

I say that on

the basis...

Take a

ransom.

Listen

to what he

says

in Numbers 5.

Blood has

never

been...

And especially we think...

How is that

following

that there's going to...

The

whole...

Is it a

fairly

dominant

interpretation of the sheep.

And the goats amongst dispensationalists, that this is referring to nations and not individuals?

We

have a

difference

with

regard to

the judgment, and I

think

that

the

judgment of...

The...

Describe in further detail, as much as you can, obviously from the scriptures, the thousand

-year reign of Christ and the binding of Satan, where we get the concept of the millennium from

in Revelation 20.

I know that you touched on the millennium already in the opening of our.

Program, but if you

could describe this

in more

detail.

Well, this

thousand -year

Messiah,

not

present,

but

only

told

in

Revelation...

We have

a listener

named

Christian

in

Carlisle,.

Pennsylvania, who writes, we know that in Psalm 50,

that it says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and obviously

God owns the cattle on all hills more than a thousand.

Could this description of a thousand -year period in Revelation

20 be merely a description of a.

Long

period

of time?

The

question...

We

have

another

listener,

Arnie in

Perry

County,.

Pennsylvania, who writes, I take it that you are most likely a

conservative or fundamentalist Baptist, and from what I know of fundamentalist

Baptists, they are very leery of accepting new ideas.

Does it concern you that the pre -tribulational, pre -millennial concept of

eschatology is in and of itself a new idea when you compare

the length of church history, since there doesn't seem to be any appearance of this

in literature prior to the 19th century?

And secondly...

Yeah, I

don't know

if I read the question wrong, but he was specifically talking about the pre

-tribulational aspect of it.

Well, the pre -tribulational aspect is just development from pre

-millennial.

And I'd like

to

have

you

the

opportunity

to clarify

something.

Even though you are a dispensationalist and would not be

categorized as reformed particularly, you are a thoroughgoing,

sovereign, grace -believing Baptist, nicknamed Calvinist, are you not?

I am, sir.

Yes, I just

wanted my

listeners to

know that because I,

as a reformed Christian,.

Have been really falling in love with your preaching and teaching, and in spite of any

differences that we may have, I think that you are one of the finest preachers that I've ever heard

actually, and especially on the Long Island area, and heartily recommend people visit your

church, Wading River Baptist Church.

Wrbc .us is the website, and if you could, you have about a minute and a half

to conclude with what's most burning on your heart and mind.

That you want

to

share

with our listeners

before

you leave.

I think

the thing

that

has become...

Thank you so much, my dear brother, and I look forward to having you back on the program.

For those of you listening, Michael Vlock, that's V as in victory, L -A -C -H, who

is the Associate Professor of Theology at the Master's Seminary, the

seminary founded by renowned dispensationalist Dr. John MacArthur,

he is going to be picking up the mantle on the exact same issue where Pastor Ron Glass left off,

and he is also going to be affirming the pre -tribulational and pre -millennial

notion or view of eschatology, and so we urge you to hold on, and we'll be right back after these

messages.

Thank you very much, Pastor Ron Glass, and I can't wait to have you back on the program.

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and we look forward to receiving your questions

for Michael J. Vlock right after these messages, so don't

go away.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org.

That's lynnbrookbaptist .org.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible

translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known

for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NASBible .org.

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnes, and if you've just tuned us in, our guest for the second hour of our

examination of pre -tribulational premillennialism from

two different proponents of that view.

Our second hour begins now with Michael J. Vlock, who is the associate professor of

theology at the Master's Seminary in California.

He is also the president of theologicalstudies .org, and he

is the author of six books.

In fact, I know that one of those books is about to be released any day now.

Some of the other things he has written are Has the Church Replaced Israel? A Theological

Evaluation, The Church as a Replacement of Israel? An Analysis of

Supercessionism, Dispensationalism, Essential

Beliefs and Common Myths, and Philosophy 101, The Big Idea for the

101 Most Important People and Ideas in Philosophy.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, Michael J.

Vlock.

Chris, thanks for having me.

It's a joy to be on the program, and thanks for doing this series on eschatology.

I've been enjoying it so far, and I'm glad you asked me to be a part of it.

The pleasure is all mine, and I'm sure the pleasure of many of our listeners.

If you could, tell us something about theologicalstudies .org.

Yeah, theologicalstudies .org, the theological issues, you know,

from the perspective of a as

well.

And I

just

want to say to our listeners that you came with the highest

recommendations.

From Dennis Swanson, who works there in the library at the Master's Seminary, and I've gotten to

know Dennis a little bit over the years.

Never met him face -to -face, through internet interaction, and have been very

impressed by things that he has posted on the internet.

And if he that enthusiastically recommended you, I knew that you were definitely someone whose opinion

was worthy of hearing.

And what's the latest book that is supposed to be out in the stores and in

the internet warehouses any moment now?

Well, it has a simple title.

The subtitle is, Why There Must Be a Future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus.

And one thing I try to do with the book is not only discuss why I believe that

premillennialism is

the correct view, it's the what of premillennialism, but also trying to lay out

how it fits into the Bible storyline.

Let me repeat our email address here.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Michael J. Vlock, it's ChrisArnzen at gmail

.com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please, at least, give your first name, your city and state of residence, and the country where you reside if you

live outside of the USA.

And we look forward to having you join us in the conversation.

I just also wanted to make sure I'm pronouncing your name correctly.

Is it Vlock?

Was I correct?

You are.

You're correct, Chris.

Thanks for getting it right.

We already have a listener from Sharpsburg, Georgia, who asks,

Has the pre -trib, premillennial view been held since the early church or more recently

in the last century or two?

Now, we just had someone else ask Pastor Ron Glass before the break that

question, and I'll have, I guess, perhaps Lou from Sharpsburg just tuned in.

So, if you'd like to answer that.

The question in regard to premillennialism.

And pre -trib in history?

Yes.

How far back in history can you specifically find a pre -tribulational view or dispensational view?

Because it is pretty much agreed by people of all eschatological views that I know of

that premillennialism can be found in the ancient writings of the church, but that's the pre

-trib issue and the dispensational issue that gives more

reasons for concern on the part of your eschatological opponents, if you will.

Right.

I think when it comes to, I'll try to answer both, when it comes

to including premillennialism, including particularly in the early years

of the church of belief in a salvation and restoration of Israel, a coming Antichrist,

again, the significance of the city of Jerusalem, say,

today, that would find...

Again, I would just want to note, too, that in the early church, you

don't have theological systems like you do now, or Protestant theological systems.

I mean, covenant theology itself is a post -Reformation development, but after

that...

So when we're coming with...

We do find our statements from the early church fathers on various aspects pertaining

to...

Of theology.

So I just wanted to be clear on that.

You know, when it comes to the pre -tribulational doctrine, I mean, I do think it's in the early 19th century

that you find it explicit.

Part of the reason for that is that it wasn't too long into church history that there was a...

And the view

preceded Israel's place in the plan of God, and that's been a very dominant view.

You know, pre -trib rapture

is pre -trib

doctrine.

When you come to the 19th century and the

rise...

Just at that point...

Yeah, and I just wanted to remind.

Our listeners that we are going to be addressing all of the major

eschatological views over the next five days.

We began yesterday, so it will be six days in total, and we will never be

making everybody happy because there are variations within each view and so on, and

it is also not my purpose during the marathon on eschatology to constantly

butt in to our guests' comments and disagree with them

and so on.

I am merely here to ask questions and get their answers on these issues.

So, and of course, as I said before, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Now, we've already had Pastor Glass go over the basic

concepts of pre -tribulational, pre -millennialism about the rapture and so on,

and now we are at a place where I'd like to begin where we are in the millennium.

I'm talking about in our discussion, not in an amillennial

sense, but our

glorified saints who were once enjoying indescribable bliss in paradise with

Christ going to be once again experiencing sorrow, grief, and anguish during the millennium,

as they did before their death, since they will be returning to a world surrounded

with mortal, sinful men, and surrounded by mortal, sinful men, and

will be witnesses to sin and death, even if it's to a lesser degree before

Christ's physical reign.

Well, I think the context.

Of the statement would be the pre -mill, pre -trib belief, that you would actually have saints raptured before the

tribulation period that would take place for seven years and then come back.

So when the question is talking about glorified saints who were once enjoying indescribable bliss in paradise,

what's it going to be like for them?

Are they going to experience sorrow and grief and anguish during the millennium on the earth?

I would say that the question is a little bit misguided in the sense

that paradise in heaven is not the ultimate destiny for the saints.

Yes, the saints are going to be taken up into heaven during the tribulation period so they can escape

the wrath of the day of the Lord during that particular time, but I look at passages even like Revelation 6, 9 to 11, which

actually describes the souls of those who have been martyred during this particular period, and they're taken up into

heaven.

We see that even when they're in heaven, they have a longing for the earth and for justice

to be done on the earth.

Revelation 6, 9, they've been

slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony which they have maintained.

So these are people that have been executed for the cause of Christ, and

they're in...

In verse 10, it says that they...

Revelation 6, 10, it says, they cried out with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, will you

refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

It's interesting there because it indicates that they have an interest in the earth and

what's taken...

I just find that very interesting that...

Now, I understand these would be people in the tribulation who have been killed and are up in heaven, but they're up in heaven nonetheless, and it's

not like they get up to heaven and say, Hey, this is our thinking of the earth.

How long, O Lord, to you avenge...

Revelation 5, 10, where we're told that the ones that Christ purchased with His blood, that they have

been made a kingdom and they will reign upon the earth.

It's interesting in the heavenly sense that they're

going to reign upon the earth.

Now, I would also just add to that as well, the way the question was worded almost sounds like it would

come to a millennium, that it's going to be grief and sorrow and anguish and all these sorts of things.

My understanding is that the kingdom, Isaiah 25 and other passages presented as a messianic

banquet, that's something that's very well...

Passages like Isaiah 65, 20 and the end of Zechariah chapter 14 indicate that there can be

sin during this particular time.

It doesn't mean that it's characterized by sin and grief and anguish.

So, I think this is a time of joy.

It's rejoicing.

Christ is ruling as king upon the earth.

So, I think it will be a wonderful time, horrified at the time of the

rapture, but again, find themselves on the earth, but they're...

According to Revelation 5, 10, the earth is their destiny for the world.

Yeah, I didn't mean in my question to indicate that this was going to be just like the

tribulation in your description of it, and that it would be a

less sorrowful period of time

than before the physical reign of Christ, but it still will include

mortal, sinful men living in this millennium, and Christ is for some reason

ruling with a rod of iron, is he not?

Right.

So, obviously, there's a rod of iron because there are people who are.

Sinning and rebelling in some fashion.

Right, yeah.

Okay, and a common objection,.

As you probably know, to pre -millennialism is found in Ezekiel's temple vision in

Ezekiel 40 through 48, when amillennialists and post -millennialists argue that if

this is a future temple, that it will require a return to the sacrificial system

that Christ made obsolete since the prophet speaks of atonement in Ezekiel

43, 27, 45, 17, and so

on.

Critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ,

as presented in Hebrews 10,.

And I was wondering how you respond to that.

Yeah, I think that's a great, that's a good, honest question.

I mean, you know, I find that personally to be the question that's probably asked

most, and again, Ezekiel is about rebuke and judgment for

Israel, but in Ezekiel 8 -11, you actually have

Ezekiel seeing the temple, and he's seeing the glory of the Lord leaving the temple.

So I think Ezekiel 8 -11 is going to be very important when you look at Ezekiel's temple in Ezekiel 40 -48.

Once you hit Ezekiel 33 and onward, it's talking about the restoration of Israel.

So like most of the heavy condemnation for Israel for breaking the

Mosaic covenant up front, but then there's this promise of restoration that will come in the future.

I do think it's significant in Ezekiel 36 and 37, which is a passage

that you actually find in New

Covenant Realities, verse

25, you know, in the context of clean water on you,

and then in verse 26, God says, I will give you a new heart, and then you

actually have the promise of heaven where I put my spirit within you and cause you

to walk in my statue for me.

I mean, those are clear.

So I think when you get to Ezekiel 40 -48, I think there's going to have to be an understanding that, you know, if there is going to be a literal

film of those things that are talked about, it's not a

return.

When you do come to Ezekiel 40 -48, which is, you know, the

most controversial glory of God,

and he looks at the architecture that's discussed in very detail.

So one of the things you have to deal with there is, you know, why is there all this very minute detail

of this temple?

One of the things that

I would want to say

as I address this issue, that there is a wide variety

of this.

While most affirm a literal temple,

any sacrifice, for those

who do, you know,

including myself,

millennium,

I think it does.

A lot of people need to be in the future that that would

violate Hebrews.

I don't think it does.

I think in Hebrews, individuals who are thinking of turning from Christ,

from his ultimate point,

the situations are different.

I would also add it in mind in this issue is that

the sacrifices in the Old Testament, although there were multiple, Hebrews

chapter

10, if there end up

being sacrifices in the millennium by

a restored Israel as an act of worship, that would be

looking ahead.

Let me repeat our email address.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you could describe the final rebellion after the millennium.

Glad to do that.

Okay, the chronology we're heading, the questions in regard to the rebellion,

in the section here, it seems like

almost everybody within the pre -mill, post -mill, amill understanding agrees that Revelation 19, 11 and

following is describing the second coming of Christ, of his enemies.

According to a pre -millennial understanding, Revelation 20 with the binding of Satan

and then the reign of the martyrs, those ones who were killed in Revelation 6, 9, 11, we're told

that they come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

So those who were martyred of Christ, that takes place at the

second coming.

And so you have this thousand year reign of Christ that's taking place.

But the question is mostly in regard to, we're told in Revelation

chapter 20, verse 7, that when the thousand years were completed, Satan will be released from his prison.

He comes out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, which seems to be a reference to what

Ezekiel 38 and 39 discussed.

And it talks about that they're gathered together for the war.

The number of them is like the sand of the sea.

What ends up happening is that they come up on the broad plain of the earth, they surround the camp of the saints and the beloved

city.

I take it that the beloved city would be the city of Jerusalem.

Fire comes down from heaven and destroys and devours them, which is also discussed in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

And then we're told at that particular time that the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire,

and they will be tormented day and night forever.

That Satan has a purse deceiving the

nations, that's curtailed.

He is a person, he's

not able to deceive the nations anymore.

So when a person is incarcerated, their function comes to an end.

But we're told here, you

know, within Christ, that may seem hard to believe, that you can

actually have people not coming to sin,

the non -alike perfect access to God in heaven

by Adam and Eve.

I mean, sin never does make sense.

You do have this rebellion, and there's a

lot

of

unbelief

this rebellion

is

put out.

Now, will Jesus Christ still be, in your view, physically present

when this rebellion occurs?

Well, I

think,

yeah, you are

having to create

or add to the eternal state.

And if you could, define dispensationalism, since you and Pastor Glass

are dispensationalists,.

If you could define that for our listeners.

Okay, and again, I just want to affirm that dispensationalism,

like covenant,

I think would be a good working definition

of theology that emphasizes distant historical grammatical interpretation to all.

It also emphasizes

a

distinction,

and

it's emphasized

first

Adam

failed, told by

God to

rule

five

over the

earth,

Jerusalem, capital nation of the Israel, according to Isaiah 2 .2.

I really think that's,

I'm going to mention a few other things, but I think that's really at the heart of it.

A historical

grammatical, it's all

Bible passages,

and I'm sure we'll hear

more about that,

but it's a

holistic

system

that takes into

account, I

also

think

it's holistic

under individuals.

This is all centered in King Jesus,

based on the vacuum

of knowledge.

I think another thing that's really important is that

the idea that the New Testament

harmonizes, and that no passage,

the New Testament, maybe just one

more thing

would be,

is disproportionalism or fulfillment theology, in which there would be the belief that national

Israel is no longer significant in all of the above, this is

a both and, this is not an either or, Christ

49 verse 6, we see that Christ who is the ultimate, so in

this sense.

And before we go to our last break, I'm assuming that although the.

Pre -tribulational aspect of your eschatology is dominant in dispensationalism,

there are.

Some who are not specifically pre -trib.

Yeah, that's very important to understand.

I think the

rapture is an

attempt at

the idea

of understanding the kingdom program, understand.

Which are more foundational.

We're going to our last station break, so if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for

Michael J. Vlock, Associate Professor of Theology at the Master's Seminary in California, on the

issue of dispensationalism, or more in particularly, the pre

-tribulational, pre -millennial eschatological view.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C

-H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please include your first name, city and state, and country if outside the USA.

We'll be right back.

Thriven Financial is pleased to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

While others see money as a goal, Thriven sees it as a tool for serving God, family, and

community.

For more than a century, Thriven has helped its nearly two and a half million Christian members make financial

decisions that reflect their values, while also helping them live generously.

Find out more by contacting me, Mike Gallagher,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Thriven Financial, connecting faith and finances for good.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thriven story.

...or Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island?

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience,

featuring the systematic exposition of God's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are continuing our discussion on pre -tribulational, pre

-millennialism with our guest, Michael J. Vlock, Associate Professor of Theology at the Master's

Seminary and President of TheologicalStudies .org.

He's also the author of six books.

And we are having a very excellent discussion, I think.

And would you consider yourself, Michael, being more closely identified with

classified, modified, or progressive.

Dispensationalism?

Yeah, that's a good question, Chris.

And just so our listeners know, I mean, generally it has been understood that in the development of the dispensational

system tradition since the early 1900s, we can look back now and say that

dispensationalism has, I think, at

the core, there are certain features that are

wrong, and then they do

differences.

But, you know, there are some, you

know, seem to, you know, early 1900s.

I think with classical

dispensationalism is

they reacted

against things like that

with classical

dispensationalism

that I think there was some refinements.

I think when we think of, well, with

the, and there's

a modified

dispensationalism,

you know, I

think if you've

probably, speaking, I tell

my students in

class that I have elements of modified and progressive dispensationalism that I, you

know, fall in between

those.

One of

the

things

that I

really do like

about

progressive

dispensationalism is

it's still another ergo national and

international, you know,

modified

dispensationalism.

And the

apostles,

when you look at

Matthew chapter 25,

verse 31, already divinical.

I think in Matthew 19, 28, Matthew 25, 31, Jesus,

well, I would be...

Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, revisits us with another.

Question.

He says, do C .I. Schofield and Darby accurately portray

pre -trib, pre -mill eschatology?

I would say the, I mean, the answer would be at a lot of the things that are foundational

dispensationalism concerning distinction between Israel and the Church, need to take Old Testament or

future, restoration of

Israel, you

know, belief in pre -trib rapture.

I would say for the most part, you know, as I mentioned in my other answer, there have

been classical dispensationalism.

I

mentioned them.

I appreciate what they've done.

I think they did a lot of good work, but I think there's also

been a lot of things

that...

Just to clarify something that you said.

Before the break about dispensational and covenantal theology

not appearing on the earthly scene until after the Reformation.

I'm sure there, if there are any Roman Catholic apologists listening, they're doing fist pumps and they're applauding

and they're jumping up and down.

I'm assuming you did not mean by that, that all of our doctrine and theology as

reformed or dispensational Christians did not exist before the Reformation and was merely the invention of.

The reformers and so on.

Yeah, I mean, I would agree with the way that you just presented that.

I'm mostly talking about these systems and systems.

I think what you end up finding is, and I would say it's true about covenant theology and dispensationalism.

When you look at the specific beliefs of the systems, you can track a lot of those beliefs back to

the early church, but in the early church, they were facing a lot of things.

They were facing persecution, they were facing a lot of heresies.

It wasn't really an era of systemization like you would find later.

I mean, I think it's accurate and fair to identify with the system, but at the

same time, we want to look at the...

The main thing is, do they line up with Scripture?

But I think it's also valid to go back to the early church.

Like I said, when I go back and look at the early church, there was a belief in futurism, that a true

future, that there would be an actual second coming of Christ, that there was a coming anti -Christ.

There was a strong belief in the future Elijah.

At least in the early years of the church, they should have restoration of Israel, the significance of the city of Jerusalem.

Like when I look at all those things, it's.

Traditional theology.

And the...

As far as I can see from my reading of the reformers in regard to the gospel, they were

proving to their Catholic opponents that the gospel that the reformers

embraced was not a novel idea, that they were referring often to the church fathers as proof

that the gospel itself was taught long prior to the Reformation.

Right, and I would be...

I actually work with a fine theologian here at the Master's Seminary

who is...

The gospel of justification through faith alone was not an invention of the

reformers, like the Catholics and a lot of others want to say, that it was clearly taught in the earliest

years of the church.

So I do believe that when it comes to the gospel and the central of the

gospel.

In the first...

Oh, by the way, so you Roman Catholics listening, you could stop giving each other high fives now, okay?

By the way, I have a Roman Catholic background too.

I was saved out of Roman Catholicism.

Yeah, so was I actually.

Eight years of Catholic school, a Walter boy and everything.

I'm a Walter boy too.

In 1 Peter 2 .9 we read, But you are a chosen race, a royal

priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you

may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his

marvelous light.

Is this a description of the church or Israel?

That's another good question.

I would just want to point...

I think there's two areas I want to address this issue on, because sometimes this is used as a proof text for a

replacement or fulfillment theology to some other churches in Israel.

There's a pretty strong, long tradition in church history in the early church, even including Calvin, including

even many today, who believe specifically to a believing Jewish

audience.

And if that ended up being the case, it would be similar to the Israel of God that Paul...

I'm not saying that view is right, but there is a long tradition of that, of people who have held

that view.

And, you know, Peter went to the Jews for him to

write a letter that would be primarily to them, wouldn't be that surprising.

I do know most scholars today take 1 Peter as including Gentiles in the audience, and if that ends up being the

case, I think this would affirm the truth of several passages, but Isaiah 19 verses 24 to 25, where

we're told Israel would expand to include Gentiles, but the

concept of the people of God would be expanded to include believing Gentiles alongside

believing Jews.

In Isaiah 19, 24 to 25, it's talking about in that day, you know, referring to kingdom,

messianic kind, there's the statement that Egypt would be the people of God.

That's interesting that it was predicted in the Old Testament that a title used of Israel, or a

designation, the people of God, would someday be expanded to include

Gentiles.

But also in Isaiah 19, 24 to 25, we see Assyria, you know, who's the work of God's hands,

and then we're also told that Israel is there, you know, Israel, my inheritance.

So personally, what I think could be going on here with 1 Peter 2, 9, is that, you know, if he's not calling

the church Israel of the 73 references, not one, that doesn't

have anything Galatians 6, 16 does, but I'm convinced that's referring to

believing Jews as well.

So I think what's going on here is Peter is telling his readers that, you know, designations that were used of

Israel are now being used of you, which is very consistent with the message of

Isaiah 19, 24 to 25, Roman theology or replacement

theology or supersessionism.

It's just indicating that because of the Messiah, the people of God.

Include believing Gentiles and believing Jews.

In Romans 11, we get the concept from Paul

that the Gentiles have been grafted in with the Jews,

and how could this be, how could Israel and the church

be totally separate?

Because the Gentile believers are not grafted into Israel as a nation or as an

ethnicity.

So explain that to me, please.

Well, I think the key to understanding, and I think what we're going here is the olive tree analogy of Romans 11, and I think the key

is understanding, because this is a continuity passage in regard to believing Jews and Gentiles here, there's no doubt about it.

I think the rich root of the olive tree of Romans 11, 17 is the promises of

the Abrahamic covenant, of which I see the Davidic covenant and the New Covenant as extensions of those.

But I think the key to understanding is that if the rich root of the olive tree is the promises of the covenants,

and the Abrahamic covenant in particular, Genesis 12, 2 -3 indicated that the Abrahamic

covenant would include the nation Israel as the means of blessing the people groups.

So what this means is that the Old Testament, including the covenants of promise,

Abrahamic, Davidic, and New, they're given via the nation Israel, but they extend

then to the Gentiles.

And so the covenants are not just the possession of Israel, and that's one thing I think is important to understand, is that the

covenants of promise in the Old Testament include the Gentiles.

So what I think is taking place here, what Paul's talking about in Romans 11, 17 -24, is that

Israel's naturally related, now as I say that, I'm not saying all Jews are believers, a Jew has to trust in Christ in order to

be saved, but Israel is naturally related to the covenants of promise.

Because of their unbelief, they've been temporarily cut off, and Gentiles have been grafted in.

I mean, I'm a Gentile, you know, my lineage goes back to the old Czechoslovakia, I mean,

I'm not Jewish, but I believe in Israel's Messiah.

I get the benefits of the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New covenants in my life, as do other believers, both Jew and Gentile.

I've been grafted in, 11, because that's coming up in

verses 25 and following, the day in which all Israel will be

saved,

Messiah,

7 -3, together in the...

Now I'm sure you've heard of the

parenthesis.

Theory about the Church, that the Church is just a parenthesis in history between the times of God

dealing with Israel in the Old Covenant and the future.

Do you hold to that theory of the Church being a parenthesis, and maybe if you want to even

describe that a little more fully?

Yeah, I don't like using the word,

a lot of times, it

isn't that important.

We all know, yeah, there's the Church that comes in the middle, and then we get on to the good stuff, but that's what's...

And again, I'm not saying you're saying that, I know you're not.

But I do think when you study Romans 11, Paul makes it very clear, one, that God

has not...

Just say in Romans 11 that there has been a... of Israel,

I mean, there's 41 -40, you missed your

Luke 19, 41 -44, to

20 -24.

So there is a sense, Israel has missed their Messiah, because of sin and unbelief,

and there's a sense now, the

era where they're

primarily with Gentile 25, you know, we're

told that, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

So is it true,

is it also true that

there's a coming where the last

act, the

promise,

overcome?

Yeah, I think it's in that context that I think...

Maybe if you could just summarize what your view is on the

distinction between the Church and.

Israel.

Yeah, I would say Israel in the Bible, always where Israel is

used.

I would say

that Israel,

you know, Israel

in the

past has

been theologically said

to be saved and

restored, 2339,

in this

age,

but

if we

are...

Now, you have two books, one is titled, Has the Church Replaced Israel?

And the other is, The Church as a Replacement of Israel.

How do you respond to those amillennial and postmillennial Christians

who object to that phrase, replacement theology, because they themselves don't use it,

and they believe that there is a stark difference between the Church being a fulfillment of

Old Covenant Israel, rather than a replacement of Israel?

How do you respond to...

Yeah.

Because I have personally, I can say, I've never heard amill or postmill Christians

describe their.

Own theology as replacement theology.

Yeah, and I would say, first of all, that I have, I

mean, the Covenant theology, the Covenant

theology represents theology.

You'll see statements there, and not only

is it there in the past, it's a

replacement theology title.

I'm more concerned, I hear a lot of talk, fulfillment theology,

fulfillment theology, but when I ask them what

the theological significance of the

nation Israel, I

do my

writing on fulfillment

theology, I'm more

interested in replacement theology...

If you could, in a minute, just unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds.

I would just encourage the readers that Eschatolah...

I want to study it, or it's...

We have fall, we

have redemption in Christ, and we

have a coming restoration of all things...

This last Adam needs to rule from and over the realm where the first Adam failed, and he's going to do that in the millennial kingdom, and that's

something we should all be.

Excited about...

And I assume that, like the founder of

your seminary that you're on the faculty at, I'm assuming that, like Dr. John MacArthur,

you don't use your differences on eschatology as a club to bash over the heads of

other believers, and that we can find great harmony in Christ over the gospel and other

matters that are far more salvific.

At the seminary here at Grace Community Church, we part...

I want to thank you so much for being an excellent guest today.

I look forward to having you back, perhaps on your book on philosophy.

I would love to interview you on that.

And I want to repeat your website, theologicalstudies .org, and Pastor Ron Glass, who

you heard in the first hour, his website is wrbc .us.

I want you all to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Thank you.