Aug. 18, 2015 Show with Ron Glass & Michael J. Vlach on “Pre-Trib / Premill” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of August 2015 and today is day number two of our end times marathon that began yesterday with Amillennialism.

Today we are going to be discussing pre -tribulational premillennialism. Tomorrow we are going to be,

God willing, addressing historic premillennialism. On Thursday we are going to be addressing the pre -wrath rapture view and on Friday we will begin a two -day series or two -part program on post -millennialism.

On Friday we will begin with the traditional post -millennial view and on Monday the 24th we intend to have a program addressing theonomic or reconstructionist post -millennialism.

But it is my honor and privilege to have with me today a very dear friend of mine, a man whom without Iron Sharpens Iron would not be possible, and that is

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

Pastor Glass is a former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology and the website for Wading River Baptist Church is wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Ron Glass.

Chris, it's a delight to be with you today. Thank you. Yes, and the delight is all mine and my listeners,

I'm sure. And well, let's begin since we are discussing pre -tribulational premillennialism, the most dominant view held by dispensationalist

Christians. Your eschatological view is known as pre -tribulational premillennialism, so obviously this refers to something that is going to happen before events called the tribulation and the millennium.

So what are these two events and what exactly do you believe will occur prior to these two events?

All right, well, let's start by talking about the tribulation. The tribulation, as we premillennialists understand it, is a period of time which we believe the

Bible indicates is seven years in length, a time that is yet future, a time that will see unprecedented judgment on the earth.

God will be judging the earth severely during that period of time. The Lord Jesus, in referring to what we call the great tribulation, which is,

I think, the biblical term for the final half of that seven years or the last three and a half years of that tribulation, he indicated that there never has been a time like this and never will be again on the earth.

It is a time of unprecedented judgment. That period of seven years of judgment will be preceded by the coming of the

Lord Jesus Christ for his church. This is what we refer to as the rapture.

The rapture is the catching away, snatching away, the word comes from a

Latin word which means to seize, and it will be the Lord Jesus returning for his church, that is, all who have lived, dead and those alive who have lived from the day of Pentecost through that moment, they will be caught up with the

Lord Jesus Christ and we're told that at that point we shall be forever with him. This is the coming referred to by the

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and also in 1

Thessalonians chapter 4. This coming relates only to the church.

This terrible time of judgment will then be followed by the second advent of Christ or the second coming proper of Christ in which he comes now not for his church but with his church in order to inaugurate the events that will lead to the beginning of his great messianic kingdom.

That kingdom will last, according to Revelation chapter 20, 1000 years in duration.

That's why we call it the millennium from the Greek word for 1000. And so when we talk about pre -tribulational, pre -millennialism, we are talking about the rapture of the church, the coming of the

Lord Jesus for his church. It is pre -tribulational in that it takes place prior to the tribulation period and it is pre -millennial in that it also takes place prior to the millennium.

However, with regard to the tribulation, the tribulation takes place prior to the millennium.

And so we believe that the tribulation period from our standpoint today is yet future. We are not living in the tribulation.

It is a time that is unprecedented. All of the horrors that we have, that human history has witnessed over its entire course, nothing compares except possibly the flood.

Nothing compares to what is going to take place in the judgment of the tribulation.

So we're living prior, at this point, prior to the return of Christ for his church, prior to the tribulation, and then we are living today prior to the kingdom of the

Lord Jesus Christ, which we call the millennium. So just to clarify in regard to the return of Christ from what you said, do you believe in only one return of Christ as amillennialists and postmillennialists believe, or are there two returns of Christ that we now wait for, one secret and invisible to those on earth who are lost, and one that will be visible to all?

Well, we believe in two returns of Christ, yes, and I would qualify that question a little bit.

There is no question that our Lord's return prior to his establishment of his kingdom, his messianic kingdom, will be strikingly visible.

The Lord Jesus Christ said as much in Matthew 24 in the

Olivet Discourse, when he said, the Lord Jesus said that he, the

Son of Man, will send forth his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other, and he will come as lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west.

So it is going to be a very visible coming. Now, with regard to his coming for his church, traditionally there have been a lot of pre -tribulational, pre -millennialists who have said that the coming of the

Lord Jesus for his church, again what we call the rapture of the church, is secret and invisible.

Well, the New Testament doesn't tell us that. That is an assumption that has been made and has sort of become a tradition.

But you cannot find a biblical passage that tells us that the rapture of the church is secret and that it is invisible.

Now, they may be, but the fact is that speculation on the part of pre -tribulations.

And to also clarify to my listeners, because I know I may have some of my post -millennialist friends already in disagreement with my description of them.

Some of them do believe in more than one return of Christ, but I was, in reference to the judgment on the temple in AD 70 and so on, but I was speaking specifically of the one visible physical return of Christ at the end of all earthly history that the mills and postmills agree upon.

But if only lost individuals are left behind on earth after the church is raptured, what will be the means by which these lost people hear the gospel?

All right, this is a question that takes some time to answer. We believe that the rapture removes all

Christians. Now remember, according to Galatians 3 .28, there is no racial distinction, no national or ethnic distinction involved here.

For example, every ethnic Jew who has come to know Jesus Christ as his personal

Lord and Savior is going to be removed in the rapture. Why? Because in this age he is a member of the body of Christ, the church, and it is the church that is the subject of the rapture.

So once the Lord Jesus removes the church, at that moment there are no believers left on the earth.

Now the question that you're asking is, there's an assumption here in your question, and that is that in the following months and years that there are going to be believers.

And yes, you are correct on that. How is it that the world is evangelized following the rapture of the church?

Let me make a couple of points here. Let me make a distinction that I think is important. Who is going to be saved during this period of time?

The answer to that, I think, is pretty clearly there will be Jews and Gentiles who will be saved.

However, I think it's also very important that we understand that those who have heard the gospel and rejected the gospel during this age, this age of grace, this church age, when the gospel is being preached, those who have rejected it are apparently going to be hardened.

They're going to be left on the earth, but they are probably going to be hardened because they rejected the message.

Now Paul talks about this in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 where he talks about the revelation of Antichrist, he calls the lawless one here.

The one who's coming is in accord with the activity of Satan and all power and signs and false wonders.

Here's what he does, he says, with all deception of wickedness for those who perish because, why?

They did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. So Paul here in 2

Thessalonians 2 .10 is referring to those who are on earth who did not accept the gospel, who rejected the truth.

What's going to happen to them for this reason, verse 11, God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false in order that they may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness.

So the first thing I think we need to say is that anyone within the sound of our voice who continues to reject the

Lord Jesus Christ and the claims of the gospel on their lives can take no comfort from any hope that they may have that they'll get a second chance once Christ comes.

Once they see that the church is gone and once they see the horrific events of the tribulation beginning that they then will be saved because apparently they will be hardened.

All right, so who will be saved? Well this calls us to a very important observation here with regard to the tribulation period and that is it seems as though the primary, not the only, but the primary target of the judgment of the tribulation period is the

Jewish people and the reason for that is because they above every other nation on the face of the earth throughout human history were uniquely privileged.

They were the covenant people of God. God chose them through from Abraham and all of his descendants.

The nation of Israel has continued to be his covenant people. However, throughout history they also have a long tradition of rejecting

God and that goes right from the beginning of their history all the way through the present time.

There has been a lot of judgment. They have experienced judgment continually. We think particularly of the

Syrian captivity of Israel, the Babylonian captivity of Judah, and we think in more recent terms of things like the

Holocaust. Yes, Israel and the Jewish people have been judged severely, but there is an even more severe judgment coming.

At the same time, however, there is going to be an unprecedented missionary movement that takes place.

That is, God is going to send an army of evangelists throughout the world whose primary target are the

Jewish people and whose message is essentially the gospel of the kingdom, which in very simple terms is the message that John the

Baptist and Jesus preached, which was repent because the kingdom is at hand.

Now, who are these evangelists? I believe that the book of Revelation tells us very clearly they are 144 ,000 specially chosen and sealed, that is, specially divinely protected men who are sent into the world.

That is, I understand it is approximately three times the current Protestant missionary force in the world today.

It will be a massive saturation of the earth with the message of Jesus Christ, the

Son of God, the one who was crucified on Calvary and who is about to return, that they should repent and believe in him.

There will be many Jews who respond to that message and believe in Christ, and many of them are going to be martyred for that faith.

However, there will also be Gentiles who hear this message and Gentiles will believe and they too will, many of them, suffer martyrdom for their faith.

That's just kind of a thumbnail sketch of it, but I think that should answer your question. I'm going to give our email address for those of you who would like to join the conversation with a question of your own.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give your first name at least and the city and state where you reside and the country where you reside if you are outside of the

United States. Chris Arnzen, yes. Chris, I'm sorry, let me just, there's one thing

I failed to mention that I should add, and the question is probably going to come up, how do these 144 ,000 evangelists, how do they come to faith?

How do they believe? And the answer to that, I think, is contained in Revelation 11. God sends two witnesses, and if you look very carefully at what's said in Revelation 11, as well as some things that are said before that, particularly in Malachi 4 and also by the

Lord Jesus in the wake of the transfiguration, those two witnesses are

Moses and Elijah, who will be sent back to Jerusalem, to Israel, and they will be used by God, by the

Spirit of God, who always is the one who's involved in regenerating, to open the minds of these young Jewish men who are going to be charged then with taking that message to the world.

Moses and Elijah, we are told, are going to actually be killed and then raised three days later, their bodies left in the streets of Jerusalem, and the world is going to rejoice that they're a murder, but then they're going to be resurrected.

It's all spelled out there in the 11th chapter of Revelation. I don't want to broad brush here.

We know that each of these eschatological views that we are presenting over the following five days, six days in total, there's going to be listeners who say that their view has not been represented as they see things, and of course that would be impossible to keep everybody happy because there are differences of opinion and different views even within each camp of eschatology, but some who identify themselves as pre -tribulational, pre -millennialists or dispensationalists believe that there will be a change in the gospel itself during the

Great Tribulation, that salvation will no longer be by grace alone through faith alone, and that it will be required of men to perform good deeds as a means to inherit eternal life.

And as Peter Ruckman put it in his Millions Disappear, before the rapture you could have been saved by grace through faith plus nothing, as in Ephesians 2 8 -9, but one minute after the rapture took place you must get out the

Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule and start learning them because you're going to be judged by them as in Matthew 25 31 -46.

And then he later says it will take faith in Christ's shed blood plus works exactly as in the

Old Testament, it took faith and shed blood and works. Do you agree or disagree with that scenario?

Well let me just say that Peter Ruckman is a fringe element on not just this question but on some others as well.

I don't know a single fundamentalist or evangelical pre -millennialist, pre -tribulationalist who believes anything of the sort.

The salvation has always been by grace through faith.

That was true of Abraham, it was counted, his belief in the covenant promise of God was accounted to him as righteousness, he was justified.

And throughout the history of humanity, across all of the dispensations, salvation has always come the same way, through faith in the work of Christ.

It has been expressed in different ways. Obviously prior to the coming of Christ, if you had said you have to believe in Jesus Christ, people would have said, who's that?

But there were plenty of, there was gospel for example in the religious system of the

Jews. If you look at the tabernacle, at the sacrifices, tabernacle furniture, the high priest, his role, the high priest's garments, the festivals, the feasts, the sacrificial system, all of these elements point to Christ.

Now he wasn't named, but it pointed to one whose blood would be shed, as the book of Hebrews reminds us, once and for all, because the blood of bulls and goats and so on could never take away sin.

And so in the past they looked forward to the coming of the

Savior whose blood would take away sins. Today we look back to the

Savior whose blood took away sins. And salvation in every case was through faith in that.

And we've, no fundamentalist has ever said, no pre -tribulationist has ever said that you have to also engage in works, namely the observance of the law, in order to be saved.

That's just not true. It's not biblical. And in fact the reference that Ruffman makes to Matthew 25 is a gross misinterpretation of that passage.

So I would just say Ruffman is fringe. That idea is almost nowhere to be seen.

I totally disagree with We do have a listener, Dean in Santa Rosa, California, who asks, could you cite a single

New Testament text that explicitly teaches that Jesus will remove his people to heaven for seven years?

No, not one text. But you know, most biblical doctrines are are expressed through the whole range of biblical revelation.

Now it would take a long time probably to go through this, but let me point you to the two principal passages which refer to the coming of the

Lord Jesus Christ for the church. And that first one is found in 1 Corinthians 15, verse 50 and following, where Paul says,

Brethren, I say this, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

But I tell you a mystery, we will not all sleep, we will all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed.

The perishable must put on the imperishable, mortal must put on immortality, and when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying which is written, death is swallowed up in victory.

All right, so we have here a description of a momentary instantaneous change in which the trumpet will sound and we will be transformed from mortality to immortality.

Now, the Apostle Paul gives another description of this event in 1 Thessalonians 4, and it's very important to remember this.

What I'm reading to you now is found in the epistles addressed to the church, to the Christian church.

This is not addressed to the people of Israel to follow in the millennial period.

There is another snatching away that takes place, but it's not part of this.

All right, Paul says, we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that is, those who have died, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him, that is, with Jesus, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus, that is, all of those who have died during this age will come with him.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the

Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep, but the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the

Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. It appears to me too that Jesus had this same event in mind when he said in the upper room to his disciples,

I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, that where I am there you may be also.

I think these are the indications of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for the church.

Now what about the three and a half years? Well for that we have to go back to the book of Daniel and forward to the book of Revelation.

In those two books you have the expression which appears in both times, time and half a time, which generally is understood to be two years, one year, half a year, or three and a half years.

In Revelation reference is made to 1260 days. You have a three and a half year period that is defined as the

Great Tribulation. Now the chronology, the specific chronology that is outlined primarily in Daniel and in Revelation, not in the passages

I read. So there's not one passage that says Jesus Christ is coming for his church and then that will be seven years before he comes to reign on the earth.

You have to put passages of scripture together just as you do in any other doctrine in systematic theology.

We're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with questions for our guests, submit them to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please at least give your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside if you are outside of the

USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church and our discussion on pre -tribulational pre -millennialism during our six -day eschatological marathon.

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That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, it is day number two of our end times marathon, which began yesterday and which will conclude a week from yesterday on Monday, the 24th of August.

Today our guest for the first hour has been Ron Glass, pastor of Wedding River Baptist Church and former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology.

His website is wrbc .us. Our second hour, in just about a half hour from now, will be featuring our guest

Michael J. Vlock. That's V as in victory, L -A -C -H. He's the associate professor of theology at the

Master's Seminary, and he is also the president of theologicalstudies .org

and the author of six books. He will be taking up the mantle when

Pastor Ron leaves to continue the discussion in defense of pre -tribulational premillennialism.

And again, our email address, if you have questions, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And let me just say one more time quickly that if you live in Suffolk County, Long Island, or you have friends or family that do, or if you are ever planning to visit the

Hamptons or anywhere in the eastern Suffolk County, please, I urge you to pay a visit to Wedding River Baptist Church, pastored by our guest

Ron Glass. He is a powerful preacher. I've heard many, many of his sermons because I edit his sermons for another program that he hosts, the

River of Life broadcast, and you can find out all of that information on wrbc .us.

Going back to our discussion, Pastor Ron, who or what is the beast, the false prophet, and the antichrist?

Well, these are the primary characters, the primary actors in the tribulation period.

Now, the beast and antichrist are the same. The beast is in the apocalyptic imagery, and I use that term apocalyptic, it's the distinctive kind of literature that we find in the book of Daniel, for example, the book of Zechariah in the

Old Testament, and the book of Revelation in the New Testament. A lot of imagery, a lot of symbolism, and in the book of Revelation, the main focus of Revelation, the central section of it, by far the majority of the book, is dedicated to a description of the tribulation period, this horrific period of judgment.

Now, there are three actors who make up this evil triumvirate.

The first is described as the dragon. The dragon is simply the imagery by which

Satan himself is represented, and he, of course, is the power behind the entire tribulation.

He is the one who is inflicting, with God's permission, is inflicting the evil on the earth.

He is the dragon. The beast is antichrist. He is, and it's a whole big subject as to how do we identify antichrist.

Frankly, we cannot. Now, his identity will not be revealed until after the tribulation, excuse me, after the rapture.

The rapture of the church must take place first. Then, after that, once the church is gone, antichrist will be revealed.

Could be if the rapture of the church were to take place today, or tomorrow, or next week, and it could.

There's nothing preventing the rapture of the church from happening within this hour. If that were to take place, then clearly antichrist is currently alive, but we don't know his identity yet.

There's been a lot of speculation throughout the years as to who antichrist is. I mean, there were ways of interpreting the 666 and the numbers that represent his name and all of that.

We've had speculation from various popes, you know, to Hitler, to Barack Obama.

I mean, you know, there's this whole broad spectrum of guesswork, but nobody knows. We do not know who antichrist is.

What we do know is that he will arise, probably from the language of Revelation, probably arise out of Europe, but my understanding is he will be very strongly

Muslim in his orientation, and he will reign over...and

here's where, at this point, I have to admit, I've made a little bit of a change over the years, recently, over my view throughout the years, which is that the fourth beast that Daniel saw, or the legs, the feet, and the toes of the great image, the great colossus in the

Nebuchadnezzar stream, probably not the revived Roman empire, but the revived

Muslim caliphate. And I think that the geography that we have in scripture explaining that stacks up much better with the revived caliphate than it does with the revived

Roman empire. At any rate, antichrist will govern this, and he will not have an easy time of it, but he will be the one who exercises authority.

He will be the primary enemy of the Jewish nation, Jewish people, and he will have an associate.

The associate is called the false prophet. The false prophet is primarily, it seems, his right -hand man, and the one who promotes the cult of antichrist, the worship of antichrist, because worship of this tyrant, this dictator, will be mandated throughout the world, and he has this false prophet as sort of his religious associate.

And who or what is the whore of Babylon, or the harlot? Well, in light of what

I've just said, I think that the harlot represented in Revelation chapter 17 is the kingdom of antichrist, and there's a lot of particulars

I could go into which we don't have time to go into to make this point, but essentially it is a figurative way of representing the empire of antichrist.

But I do think that the name is significant, and that is that it is my understanding from the prophetic scripture that this empire will be centered in a revived, rebuilt

Babylon. The literal Babylon will be the capital city of antichrist.

Now for a lot of people that seems rather far -fetched, but I don't think so. I think scripture is pretty clear about that, and that's located not too far from Baghdad in contemporary

Iraq. Do you believe Zechariah 13, 8 warns of a future holocaust for the

Jewish people, worse than the Nazi holocaust, during which two -thirds of the Jewish population in Israel will perish?

And if so, why are so many dispensationalists excited over Jews returning to Israel?

That question bothers me, because it seems to imply that dispensationalists are very excited to have the

Jews persecuted, which couldn't be further from the truth. The best friends that Israel has today are evangelical

Christians who are pre -millennialist and for the most part pre -tribulationist.

There is a rising tide, and it's subtle in some respects, but there is a rising tide of anti -semitism even within evangelical

Christianity today. Those who stand by Israel are primarily the dispensationalists, primarily the pre -millennialists.

Now, what about Zechariah 13, 8? Yes, there is going to be an enormous judgment.

As I said earlier, the tribulation period really is focused on the judgment of three separate entities.

First of all, it is primarily a judgment against the Jews. They receive from God judgment for their long history of rejecting their

Messiah, with all the privileges that they had, and with their designation, even back to Mount Sinai, as God's priestly nation, that they were to mediate his truth to the rest of the world, to the rest of the

Gentile nations. And they didn't do it. They consistently failed in their commission.

God is going to judge Israel for their rejection of him, of the covenant, of their

Messiah. Now, we know that that is the case. We have this word from God at the end of the tribulation, as the kingdom of the

Lord Jesus Christ opens. Isaiah chapter 40, verse 1, Comfort, O comfort my people, says your

God. Speak kindly to Jerusalem. Now, listen to these words. Call out to her that her warfare has ended, that her iniquity has been removed, that she has received of the

Lord's hand double for all her sins. Now, that makes it very explicit that Israel is going to essentially receive a double portion of judgment from God because of their rejection of him.

Secondly, the tribulation period will be a judgment against the Gentile nations for their abuse, their persecution of his covenant people.

Matthew chapter 25, where we see the scene of the judgment of the sheep and goat nations.

The basis of that judgment, according to the Lord Jesus, who is the judge, is how they have treated, quote, the least of these my brethren.

You look in the book of Matthew and you see, especially in prophetic context, when Jesus uses the term my brethren, brethren is a reference to the

Jewish people. And so the Gentiles at the end of the tribulation period, the

Gentile nations are going to be gathered together and they are going to be judged with regard to how they treated the

Jewish people and primarily in the tribulation period. So it's going to be a judgment of the

Jews, of the Gentiles. And finally, I believe that the tribulation period is a judgment against the earth itself.

And I say that on the basis of passage that we have in the book of Numbers in the

Old Testament, chapter 35. And this is a passage that deals with capital punishment under the law.

But it's interesting what God says here. He is saying that the life of a murderer is to be required.

He should be put to death for murder. You shall not take a ransom for him that he may return and live in the land.

A murderer is to be put to death. Why? Listen to what he says in Numbers 5, 33, excuse me, 35, 33.

You shall not pollute the land in which you are for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it except by the blood of him who shed it.

So what it seems to say is that the earth itself has been defiled constantly with the shedding of innocent blood, blood for which the perpetrator of the murderer has never been required.

And especially we think today of the outrageous proliferation of abortion just here in America, but abortion is literally all over the world.

All of these innocent children being slaughtered, their blood, how is that going to be judged?

How will God require that justice for that blood a recompense for that blood that has been shed that has never, there's never been any retribution for that.

How's God going to judge that? I believe he's going to judge the earth itself and purge it and cleanse it through the tribulation period.

And then following that, there's going to, the whole earth system itself is going to be burned and it's going to be remade.

Earth is going to be purged and cleansed. So that's the threefold point of this tribulation period.

So what we, we as Christians look forward, not that we look forward to the suffering of anybody, including our

Jewish brethren. Why do we look forward to this, these future events?

Because these are required before the Lord Jesus Christ comes to set up his kingdom of unprecedented peace and prosperity and reigns for a thousand years on the earth.

Is it a fairly dominant interpretation of the sheep and the goats amongst dispensationalists that this is referring to nations and not individuals?

Yes, I think so. We have a difference with regard to the judgment.

So in other words, dispensationalists, premillennialists believe that there are several judgments in scripture.

There's not just what, what amillennialists and others call a general judgment. There is no such thing as a general judgment.

There is a judgment that believers, to which believers are subjected, which is described in second

Corinthians 5 .10, we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, as opposed to Revelation 20, the great white throne judgment, which concerns only unbelievers.

There are no believers present at the great white throne judgment. And I think that what we have in Matthew 25 is a different judgment yet.

This is a judgment that takes place, there is an Old Testament description of it in Joel chapter 3, that Joel chapter 2 and 3, that there's the description of this judgment that takes place in the

Valley of Decision, in the Kidron Valley, just outside the city of Jerusalem.

And this is a judgment of the nations. The basis of that judgment of the nations is not specifically, at that time, faith in Christ, although that's the only way anybody's saved.

But this judgment refers to the nation's treatment of the

Jewish people. They describe in further detail, as much as you can, obviously from the scriptures, the thousand -year reign of Christ and the binding of Satan, where we get the concept of the millennium from in Revelation 20.

I know that you touched on the millennium already in the opening of our program, but if you could describe this in more detail.

Well, the millennium, this thousand -year period of Christ's reign, is described in numerous passages in the

Old Testament prophets. It is a major focus of the

Old Testament prophets. The fact that you have this mentioned in Revelation 20, and the way it is, the only thing that's unique about that is that that's the first and only time in the

Bible where we are told how long that period of time will be.

That Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, is going to reign as king over this earth.

This is the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God. It is future. It is not present.

The church is not the kingdom. The kingdom is the millennial reign of Christ, this messianic kingdom, over the nation, over the world.

And we're only told in Revelation 20, when we get to the end of the Bible, that's the first time we're told how long it's going to last.

But it is during this time that Christ reigns supremely. We are told in that same chapter,

Revelation 20, that Satan is bound for a thousand years. That doesn't mean that there's no sin.

The fact of the matter is that although the curse is removed from the earth, there's one curse that isn't removed, and that is the sin of man.

Man is still totally depraved, and people are going to be born, and people are going to die.

They're going to live a whole lot longer. It's going to go back to something similar to the way it was before the flood.

They're going to live, I mean, we're told by Isaiah that somebody who dies at a hundred years of age is going to be considered a child, dying as a child.

So longevity is going to be greatly increased during this time, but people will die, people will be born, and they will be born with a sinful nature.

But Satan and his evil influences will be removed from the earth during that time.

At the end of that period of time, that one thousand years, Satan is briefly released, and he leads a major rebellion, the rebellion of Gog and Magog, which is described in Ezekiel 38 and 39,

Revelation 20, which is one final massive rebellion against God and against the

Lord Jesus Christ, which will be put down very, very quickly before the devil is thrown into hell and eternity begins.

We have a listener named Christian in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who writes, we know that in Psalm 50, that it says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and obviously

God owns the cattle on all hills more than a thousand. Could this description of a thousand year period in Revelation 20 be merely a description of a long period of time?

I don't think so. The question you would have to ask is, what contextual evidence do you have for this?

I think it's significant that within seven verses, you have one thousand years stated six times.

We are told that this will be one thousand years. It is speaking of a specific event in the chronology of the prophetic scriptures.

It's not poetic. It's straight prophetic truth.

In the 50th Psalm, it's a poetic passage, talking correctly.

It's referring to God owns everything. That's a figure of speech.

It's using a part for the whole. It's not attempting to say that God...

It's a poetic way of saying that God owns all the cattle, all the hills. But in the context of Revelation chapter 20, something like that makes no sense.

It is a specific period of a thousand years. There are events that precede it.

There are events that follow its conclusion. There's no reason to regard this as some indeterminate period of time.

We have another listener, Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who writes,

I take it that you are most likely a conservative or fundamentalist

Baptist. And from what I know of fundamentalist Baptists, they are very leery of accepting new ideas.

Does it concern you that the pre -tribulational, pre -millennial concept of eschatology is in and of itself a new idea when you compare the length of church history, since there doesn't seem to be any appearance of this in literature prior to the 19th century?

Well, that's false. That's just plain false. If you go back into the church fathers, within the first 300 years of the church, there are pre -millennial passages.

Now granted, it's not a well -articulated position.

None of the theology of the first 300 years was. The theology developed over time.

But there are passages that clearly indicate a pre -millennial focus in Clement of Rome, the

Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, Barnabas, Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Commodianus, Nepus, Lactantius.

I mean, these are some of the early church fathers who have pre -millennial founding passages.

I also say that that argument in and of itself is a very weak argument. Those who are

Reformed, for example, have to realize that there was no

Reformed theology before the 17th century. Reformed theology was founded by a guy named

Whitby in the 17th century. There's an interesting book by James Orr called

The Progress of Dogmey, in which he shows that the development of theology throughout the past 2 ,000 years has followed the general order of systematic theology.

So simply stated, we're saying that we're not surprised that the last area to really be dealt with systematically was the prophetic part, the future eschatology.

First of all, it's not a new position. And secondly, a lot of other things that we might hold to could be called, in the same sense, new.

But they're really not. They're all found in scripture. I don't know if I read the question wrong, but he was specifically talking about the pre -tribulational aspect of it.

The pre -tribulational aspect is just a development from pre -millennial pre -tribulational theology.

We haven't had time to discuss dispensationalism. I wish I did have the time, because I think it's a very important subject that goes right along with this.

But let me just say with regard to the rapture issue,

I won't get much of a chance to say this, so let me just say it quickly. Anybody who's listening who's bought into this myth that pre -tribulationism came from a woman named

Margaret Macdonald in the church of Edward Irving in London back in the 1800s, let me just simply say this.

You can go online, look up Margaret Macdonald's prophecy. There's not a bit of pre -tribulationism in that prophecy.

So it's a myth that somebody started and is nonsense.

And I'd like to have you the opportunity to clarify something. Even though you are a dispensationalist and would not be categorized as reformed particularly, you are a thoroughgoing, sovereign, grace -believing

Baptist, nicknamed Calvinist, are you not? I absolutely am. And in the traditional sense today,

I would shy a little bit away from the term fundamentalist. I don't think that's all a bad name.

It's just gotten a bad name for a number of reasons. So I would call myself a conservative evangelical

Baptist, yes, and I am a Calvinist, absolutely. Yes, I just wanted my listeners to know that because I, as a reformed

Christian, have been really falling in love with your preaching and teaching. And in spite of any differences that we may have,

I think that you are one of the finest preachers that I've ever heard actually, and especially on the

Long Island area and heartily recommend people visit your church, Wading River Baptist Church.

Wrbc .us is the website. And if you could, you have about a minute and a half to conclude with what's most burning on your heart and mind that you want to share with our listeners before you leave.

I think the thing that has sobered me a lot is that the position that I hold has, when

I was a child, this was the majority opinion in fundamental evangelical Baptist circles.

In these years since, and I'm 65 years old now, and it was years since I was a child, 50, 60 years, what we have seen is the decline of the premillennial pre -tribulation on dispensational positions.

I believe that these positions accurately represent the Word of God. And I think that it has largely been because of the, well, not only the increasing ignorance of scripture, but also the influence of the revived reform movement and so on.

This position, which used to be a majority position, has become what seems to be a minority position now.

It's too bad. There are many people who, and I myself, have suffered for holding this view.

And many times you're at the butt of people's jokes and ridicule, but I would just encourage all the listeners to give it very serious consideration.

I think it's a proper representation of scripture. Thank you so much, my dear brother, and I look forward to having you back on the program.

For those of you listening, Michael Vlock, that's V as in victory, L -A -C -H, who is the

Associate Professor of Theology at the Master's Seminary, the seminary founded by renowned dispensationalist

Dr. John MacArthur. He is going to be picking up the mantle on the exact same issue where Pastor Ron Glass left off, and he is also going to be affirming the pre -tribulational and premillennial notion or view of eschatology.

And so we urge you to hold on, and we'll be right back after these messages. Thank you very much, Pastor Ron Glass, and I can't wait to have you back on the program.

Thank you, Chris. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. And we look forward to receiving your questions for Michael J.

Vlock right after these messages, so don't go away.

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That's nasbible .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned us in, our guest for the second hour of our examination of pre -tribulational premillennialism from two different proponents of that view.

Our second hour begins now with Michael J. Vlock, who is the associate professor of theology at the

Master's Seminary in California. He is also the president of theologicalstudies .org.

And he is the author of six books. And in fact,

I know that one of those books is about to be released any day now.

Some of the other things he has written are Has the Church Replaced Israel? A Theological Evaluation, The Church as a

Replacement of Israel, an Analysis of Supercessionism, Dispensationalism, Essential Beliefs and Common Myths, and Philosophy 101,

The Big Idea for the 101 Most Important People and Ideas in Philosophy.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, Michael J.

Vlock. Chris, thanks for having me. It's a joy to be on the program. And thanks for doing this series on eschatology.

I've been enjoying it so far. I'm glad you asked me to be a part of it. Oh, the pleasure is all mine, and I'm sure the pleasure of many of our listeners.

And if you could tell us something about theologicalstudies .org.

Yeah, theologicalstudies .org is a website devoted to theological issues, you know, from the perspective of a premillennial pre -trib dispensational understanding, but also from a

Reformed understanding as well. So it has a lot of articles and videos and sorts of things in the areas of interest that I've written on and have been videoed or audio taped, those sorts of things.

And I just want to say to our listeners that you came with the highest recommendations from Dennis Swanson, who works there in the library at the

Master's Seminary. And I've gotten to know Dennis a little bit over the years, never met him face -to -face, but through internet interaction, and have been very impressed by things that he has posted on the internet.

And if he that enthusiastically recommended you, I knew that you were definitely someone whose opinion was worthy of hearing.

And what's the latest book that is supposed to be out in the stores and in the internet warehouses any moment now?

Well, it has a simple title. The title of the book is called Premillennialism, and the subtitle is

Why There Must Be a Future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus. And one thing I try to do with the book is not only discuss why

I believe that premillennialism is a biblical doctrine, but I try to offer a rationale as to why I think that premillennialism is the correct view.

So it's the what of premillennialism, but also trying to lay out how it fits into the Bible's storyline.

Let me repeat our email address here. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Michael J.

Vlock, it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please at least give your first name, your city and state of residence, and the country where you reside if you live outside of the

USA. And we look forward to having you join us in the conversation.

I just also wanted to make sure I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Is it Vlock? Was I correct? You are.

You're correct, Chris. Thanks for getting it right. We already have a listener from Sharpsburg, Georgia, who asks, has the pre -trib, premillennial view been held since the early church or more recently in the last century or two?

Now we just had someone else ask Pastor Ron Glass before the break that question, and I'll have,

I guess, perhaps Lou from Sharpsburg just tuned in. So if you'd like to answer that. The question in regard to premillennialism and pre -trib in history?

Yes. Yeah. How far back in history can you specifically find a pre -tribulational view or dispensational view?

Because it is pretty much agreed by people of all eschatological views that I know of that premillennialism can be found in the ancient writings of the church.

But that's the pre -trib issue and the dispensational issue that gives more reasons for concern on the part of your eschatological opponents, if you will.

Right. I think when it comes to, I'll try to answer both. When it comes to dispensational truth,

I think you can find several of those in the early church, including premillennialism, including particularly in the early years of the church of belief in a salvation and restoration of Israel, a coming anti -Christ.

Again, the significance of the city of Jerusalem and those sorts of things. So there are a cluster of things that are held by dispensationalists today that would find parallels in the early church.

Again, I would just want to note, too, that in the early church, you don't have theological systems like you do now, or Protestant theological systems.

I mean, covenant theology itself is opposed to Reformation development. Dispensationalism comes even a little bit after that.

So when we're coming with systems, there are no, quote, Protestant systems in the early church. But we do find our statements from the early church fathers on various aspects pertaining to various aspects of theology.

So I just wanted to be clear on that. When it comes to the pre -tribulational doctrine, I mean,

I do think it's in the early 19th century that you find it explicitly stated. I think part of the reason for that is that it wasn't too long into church history that there was a drift towards replacement theology and the view that the church had superseded

Israel's place in the plan of God. And that's been a very dominant view, you know, up until the last couple of centuries.

So pre -trib rapture is based on the belief that there is a distinction between Israel and the church. So if you have a huge period of time where most of the theologians are holding to some form of the church replacing

Israel, you're not going to have much of pre -trib doctrine. When you come to the 19th century and the rise of premillennialism and an understanding of distinction between Israel and the church, it's at that point that the pre -trib doctrine becomes more clear.

Yeah, and I just wanted to remind our listeners that we are going to be addressing all of the major eschatological views over the next five days.

We began yesterday, so it will be six days in total. And we will never be making everybody happy because there are variations within each view and so on.

And it is also not my purpose during the marathon on eschatology to constantly butt in to our guests' comments and disagree with them and so on.

I am merely here to ask questions and get their answers on these issues.

So, and of course, as I said before, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Now we've already had Pastor Glass go over the basic concepts of pre -tribulational premillennialism, about the rapture and so on, and now we are at a place where I'd like to begin where we are in the millennium.

I'm talking about in our discussion. Not in an amillennial sense.

But our glorified saints who are once enjoying indescribable bliss in paradise with Christ, going to be once again experiencing sorrow, grief, and anguish during the millennium, as they did before their death, since they will be returning to a world surrounded with mortal, sinful men, and surrounded by mortal, sinful men, and will be witnesses to sin and death, even if it's to a lesser degree before Christ's physical reign.

Well, I think the context of the statement would be the premillennial pre -trib belief, that you would actually have saints raptured before the tribulation period, as it takes place for seven years, and then come back.

So when the question is talked about glorified saints who are, you know, once enjoying indescribable bliss in paradise, what's it going to be like for them?

Are they going to experience sorrow and grief and anguish during the millennium on the earth? I would say that the question is a little bit misguided in the sense that paradise in heaven is not the ultimate destiny for the saints.

Yes, the saints are going to be taken up into heaven during the tribulation period so they can escape the wrath of the

Lord during that particular time. When I look at passages, even like Revelation 6, 9 to 11, which actually describes the souls of those who have been martyred during this particular period and they're taken up into heaven, we see that even when they're in heaven, they have a longing for the earth and for justice to be done on the earth.

Revelation 6, 9 talks about the fact that I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the

Word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained. So these are people that have been executed for the cause of Christ, and they're in heaven at this particular time.

But also in verse 10, it says that they, Revelation 6, 10, it says, they cried out with a loud voice, saying,

How long, O Lord, holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

It's interesting there because it indicates that they have an interest in the earth and what's taking place there, and then in verse 11 of chapter 6, they're told that they need to wait a little while longer.

So I just find that very interesting that, now I understand these would be people in the tribulations who have been killed and are up in heaven, but they're up in heaven nonetheless, and it's not like they get up to heaven and say,

Hey, this is our final destiny. They're actually still thinking of the earth. How long, O Lord, to you avenge our blood upon the earth.

I think in Revelation 5, 10, where we're told that the ones that Christ purchased with his blood, that they have been made a kingdom and they will reign upon the earth.

It's interesting in the book of Revelation, even in the heavenly scenes, there's this focus and anticipation that the saints are going to reign upon the earth.

I would also just add to that as well, that the way the question is worded almost sounds like it's become the millennium, that it's going to be grief and sorrow and anguish and all these sorts of things.

My understanding that the kingdom, Isaiah 25 and other passages presented as a messianic banquet.

That's something that's very joyous, something, this is a kingdom which righteousness dwells.

Passages like Isaiah 65, 20 and the end of Zechariah chapter 14 indicate that there can be sin during this particular time.

It doesn't mean that it's characterized by sin and grief and anguish. So I think this is a time of joy. It's rejoicing.

Christ is ruling as king upon the earth. So I think it will be a wonderful time for those who are glorified at the time of the rapture, but again, find themselves on the earth where they're destined to rule.

And I think that's important to understand. According to Revelation 5 .10, the earth is their destiny for the rule.

Yeah, I didn't mean in my question to indicate that this was going to be just like the tribulation in your description of it, and that it would be a less sorrowful period of time than before the physical reign of Christ.

But it still will include mortal, sinful men living in this millennium.

And Christ is, for some reason, ruling with a rod of iron, is he not? Right. So obviously there's a rod of iron because there are people who are sinning and rebelling in some fashion.

Right. Yeah, the millennium is an intermediate kingdom that is much better than this present age, but it's the final step for the perfect eternal state.

Okay. And a common objection, as you probably know, to premillennialism is found in Ezekiel's temple vision in Ezekiel 40 through 48.

And amillennialists and postmillennialists argue that if this is a literal future temple, that it will require a return to the sacrificial system that Christ made obsolete since the prophet speaks of atonement in Ezekiel 43, 27, 45, 17, and so on.

Critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ as presented in Hebrews 10, and I was wondering how you respond to that.

Yeah, I think that's a great, that's a good, honest question. I mean, I find that personally to be the question that's probably asked most of those who hold a premill pre -trib view.

And again, it deserves a fair answer. Ezekiel is about rebuke and judgment for Israel for breaking the

Mosaic covenant. And so in Ezekiel 8 to 11, you actually have a literal

Ezekiel seeing the temple, and he's seeing the glory of the Lord leaving the temple.

So I think Ezekiel 8 and 11 is going to be very important when you look at Ezekiel's temple in Ezekiel 40 to 48.

Once you hit Ezekiel 33 and onward, it's talking about the restoration of Israel. So like most of the major prophets, there's all this heavy condemnation for Israel for breaking the

Mosaic covenant up front, and then there's this promise of restoration that will come in the future. I do think it's significant in Ezekiel 36 and 37, which is a passage that explicitly discusses the salvation and restoration of Israel, that you actually find new covenant realities that are talked about in this particular section.

So for example, in Ezekiel 36 -25, in the context of a saved

Israel, there's the promise that I will sprinkle clean water on you. And then in verse 26 of Ezekiel 36,

God says, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. Then you actually have the promise of the enthralling

Holy Spirit in verse 27, where I put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

I mean, those are clear new covenant truths. And so I think when you get to Ezekiel 40 to 48,

I think there's going to have to be an understanding that if there is going to be a literal fulfillment of those things that are talked about with the temple and the sacrifices they're talking about, it's not a return to the

Mosaic system. So when you do come to Ezekiel 40 -48, which is the most controversial section dealing with dispensationalism, it does speak of a coming temple with the presence of the glory of God.

Anyone who's read that section understands that the architecture that's discussed is very detailed.

So one of the things you have to deal with there is, you know, why is there all this very minute discussion of detail after detail after detail of this temple?

I think everyone has to acknowledge that there has been no temple up to this point in history that has had the dimensions of what's described there.

So what do you do with this temple? It talks about a temple, it talks about some sacrifices being done,

I mentioned the word atonement. I guess one of the things that I would want to say as I address this issue is that there is a wide variety of dispensational understanding from Ezekiel's temple.

So if I give my opinion, that's not the only opinion that there is amongst those who would believe like I do.

While most affirm a literal temple, not all are agreed on whether there are sacrifices or not.

As a matter of fact, there's more than a few dispensationalists who believe in a literal temple, but they don't believe that there would be any sacrifices taking place in the temple.

For those who do, including myself, I would want to affirm that this is not a return to the

Mosaic system, that it would be an act of worship, and if there are sacrifices, an act of worship of a saved and restored

Israel under the new covenant in the millennial kingdom. If this does occur, if there are these sacrifices in the millennium, of course the big question comes into play at this point, would this violate what

Hebrews discusses? And a lot of people think it would violate

Hebrews. I don't think it does. I think in Hebrews, the issue was certain individuals who were thinking of turning from Christ, from his ultimate perfect sacrifice, to go back to the

Mosaic sacrificial system. So for them to go back to that would have been a rejection of Christ.

If it ends up being the case that there are sacrifices done in the millennium, I think that they would be done in honor of Christ's sacrifice, much like we celebrate the

Lord's Supper today. So I think the situations are different. I would also add to that, too,

I think one thing that's important to keep in mind in this issue is that the sacrifices in the

Old Testament, although there were multiple purposes, they were primarily typological. They were typological in the sense that they pointed to Christ's atonement.

When we read Hebrews chapter 10, verse 4, we're told that the blood of bulls and goats never did take away sin.

So if there end up being sacrifices in the millennium by a restored Israel as an act of worship, kind of like the

Lord's Supper celebration, that would be looking back to Christ's cross, much like the sacrifices in the

Old Testament pointed ahead to the cross of Christ. Let me repeat our email address.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you could describe the final rebellion after the millennium.

Okay, I'd be glad to do that. Okay, well, just to give a little bit of the chronology we're heading, the questions in regard to the rebellion that takes place at the end of the millennium, just in the section of Revelation 19, 11 and following, you have a chronology here.

It seems like almost everybody within the pre -mill, post -mill, amill understanding agrees that Revelation 19, 11 and following is describing the second coming of Christ and the judgment of his enemies.

And according to a pre -millennial understanding, Revelation 20, with the binding of Satan, and then the reign of the martyrs, those ones who were killed in Revelation 6, 9, 11, we're told that they come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

So those who were martyred or in heaven or anticipating the earthly kingdom of Christ, that takes place at the second coming.

And so you have this thousand -year reign of Christ that's taking place, but the question is mostly in regard to the rebellion at the end of the millennium.

We're told in Revelation 20, verse 7, that when the thousand years were completed, Satan will be released from his prison.

He comes out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, which seems to be a reference to what

Ezekiel 38 and 39 discuss. And it talks about that they're gathered together for the war.

The number of them is like the sand of the sea. What ends up happening is that they come up on the broad plain of the earth, they surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

I take it that the beloved city would be the city of Jerusalem. Fire comes down from heaven and destroys and devours them, like which is also discussed in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

And then we're told at that particular time that the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever.

One of the interesting things about that is we're told with Revelation 20, verses 1 to 3, that Satan as a person is incarcerated and put into an abyss, which according to the

New Testament is a spirit prison. So it's not just his activity of deceiving the nations that's curtailed.

He as a person is actually confined, and once he's confined, he's not able to deceive the nations anymore.

So when a person is incarcerated, their function comes to an end. But we're told here with this section of Revelation 27 to 10 that at the end of the millennium, those who have not trusted in Christ, that may seem hard to believe that you can actually have

Christ visible on planet earth and people not coming to faith, but that's not that much more hard to understand than why

Satan and the non -elect angels would fall when they have perfect access to God in heaven, why

Adam and Eve fell. I mean, sin never does make sense. So at this particular point here, you do have this rebellion, and there's a lot of unbelievers that join

Satan at this particular time. And I think one of the things that this goes to show is that even with ideal conditions under Christ reigning over the earth, that man's problem is primarily a heart problem, that he needs to trust in Christ, he needs the new covenant ministry of the

Holy Spirit. Bad things that people do and think aren't just because of their environment.

Even when Satan is bound, their people's hearts are not right. Well, when Satan is released, you know, there is this rush on the city of Jerusalem that takes place.

I think one of the things that we should note about this too is that this is a very short -lived rebellion. This is a rebellion that is met immediately with destruction.

I'm sure those that will be present for that event will be awestruck by the power of God at this particular time as this rebellion is put out.

So this isn't much of a battle. It's an execution. But at that particular point, there's going to come the great white throne judgment after that, and then the final form of the eternal kingdom of the new heaven and the new earth.

Now, will Jesus Christ still be, in your view, physically present when this rebellion occurs?

Well, I think, yeah, it doesn't specifically mention his presence at this particular point, but it would seem to be the case from the white passages of Scripture, Matthew 25, 31 and following, that he has a kingdom presence on the earth when this event takes place.

Now, you are at this point here where you have implications from 1 Corinthians 15, 24, and 28, where as Christ successfully reigned, there's a handing of the kingdom over to God the

Father, so there's this transition to the eternal state. When you get to Revelation chapter 22, you see the

Father and the Son, you know, the Lamb, on the throne. So you are in this transition point. But yeah,

I do think his presence is there. And if you could, define dispensationalism, since you and Pastor Glass are dispensationalists, if you could define that for our listeners.

Okay, and again, I just want to affirm that dispensationalism, like covenant theology, like reformed theology, like all the

Protestant theologies, is a post -Reformation development, from that sense of, you know, it's coming after you know, the 16th century.

But what I think would be a good working definition is dispensationalism is a system of theology that emphasizes what

I would call a consistent historical grammatical interpretation to all Bible passages, including prophetic sections.

It also emphasizes a distinction between Israel and the Church, and dispensationalism affirms theological significance of the nation

Israel, which includes a future salvation and restoration of Israel.

And that will serve as the basis for the worldwide Kingdom. So dispensationalism, you know, sometimes dispensationalists talk so much about Israel that the impression is given, you know, that dispensationalism is all about Israel.

Going all the way back to Genesis 12, 2 -3, with the Abrahamic covenant, the purpose of the great nation to come from Abraham, which would be

Israel, would be to be as a blessing to all the families of the earth. So if dispensationalism emphasizes the future theological significance of Israel, it's emphasizing it that it's a means of worldwide blessing.

Of course, there's salvation going to the nations today, but we're talking about a time where Christ is ruling over the earth, he's, you know, he as the last

Adam is succeeding in the realm where the first Adam failed. Remember, the first Adam was told by God to rule and subdue the earth, and he failed.

Jesus is the last Adam. The first Corinthians 15 -45 is successfully reigning over the earth, capital city, you know, would be

Jerusalem, capital nation would be Israel, according to Isaiah 2, 2 -4, the nations stream to Jerusalem and to Israel to learn the way of the

Lord. So I really think that's, I'm going to mention a few other things, but I think that's at the heart of it.

Consistent historical grammatical Bible passages, the distinction between Israel and the

Church, theological significance for the nation Israel, which also includes the salvation and the restoration.

Of course, all dispensationalists affirm premillennialism. They believe in an intermediate kingdom of Christ of a thousand years.

One thing to remember is all dispensationalists are premillennialists, but not all premillennialists are dispensationalists, and I'm sure we'll hear more about that with the historic premill scholars that are coming up later in the week, but dispensationalism definitely affirms premillennialism.

I would also say that I think one of the most important things for people to grasp about dispensationalism is that it's a holistic system that takes into account the need for all aspects of God's covenants to be fulfilled, and I'm talking about the

Abrahamic, the Davidic, and the New Covenants. When you look at those covenants, they're made up of dozens of promises.

Many of them are spiritual in nature, such as salvation and a new heart, indwelling Holy Spirit, but there's also a lot of physical aspects associated with the covenants as well, which would include land, not only land for Israel, but blessings globally, on the earth.

So there's a combination of spiritual and physical blessings. So dispensationalism takes into account the need for not only the spiritual aspects of the covenants to be fulfilled, but the physical and the national aspects as well.

I also think this holistic understanding also takes into account individuals, the nation

Israel, people, groups, and nations, and of course this is all centered in King Jesus who makes it all happen.

I mean, all the covenants and all the promises find their fulfillment in Him. You know, He's their guest and amen, and all of this doesn't just take place in a vacuum with no center, it's taking place because of King Jesus.

I think another thing that's really important to understand with dispensationalism is that dispensationalism rejects the idea that the

New Testament reinterprets or transcends the message of the Old Testament. We believe that all Scripture harmonizes and that no passage reinterprets the meaning of other passages.

So, you know, we would hope that the New Testament builds literally upon the story of the Old Testament. It doesn't reinterpret it or transcend it and make it, you know, something other than what was promised.

Maybe just one more thing would be is dispensationalism rejects all forms of replacement theology or supersessionism or fulfillment theology in which there would be the belief that national

Israel is no longer significant because of what's taken place with Christ and the

Church. This isn't all of the above, this is a both -and, this is not an either -or, Christ is the center of the kingdom program, but if you look in Isaiah chapter 49 verse 6, we see that Christ, who is the ultimate servant, is going to restore

Israel and bring blessings to the Gentiles. So in this sense,

Israel is still significant, the Church is very important. And before we go to our last break,

I'm assuming that although the pre -tribulational aspect of your eschatology is dominant in dispensationalism, there are some who are not specifically pre -trib.

Yeah, yeah, that's very important to understand. Don't get me wrong,

I think the rapture is an important issue because the Bible addresses it, and I'm strongly pre -trib, but I think sometimes the idea is given that the pre -trib rapture is like the cardinal doctrine of dispensationalism, but as a matter of fact, there actually are post -trib dispensationalists.

So I do believe the rapture issue is important, but I think there's other areas more foundational, such as understanding the kingdom program, understanding

Christ's role as king, understanding the fulfillment of the covenant, and those sorts of things which are more foundational.

We're going to our last station break, so if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Michael J.

Vlock, Associate Professor of Theology at the Master's Seminary in California, on the issue of dispensationalism, or more in particularly, the pre -tribulational, pre -millennial eschatological view, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please include your first name, city and state, and country if outside the USA. We'll be right back.

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That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are continuing our discussion on pre -tribulational, pre -millennialism with our guest,

Michael J. Vlock, Associate Professor of Theology at the Master's Seminary and President of TheologicalStudies .org.

He's also the author of six books, and we are having a very excellent discussion,

I think. And would you consider yourself, Michael, being more closely identified with classified, modified, or progressive dispensationalism?

That's a good question, Chris, and that's all I want you to know. I mean, generally it has been understood that in the development of the dispensational system tradition, you know, since the early 1900s, we can look back now and say that dispensationalism has developed in certain ways.

I think at the core, there's certain key beliefs, such as, you know, distinction between Israel and the Church and the theological significance of the nation

Israel in the future that are always there. So I think the different forms of dispensationalism have more in common than they do differences.

But, you know, there are some significant differences. The classical dispensationalism that you referred to, you know, seemed to dominate most of the dispensationalism of the 1800s and then the early 1900s.

And I think the classical dispensationalism is they reacted against, you know, what were some excesses, perhaps, of the theology that had come before,

I think went too far, unsubmerged certain issues, and made some distinctions that shouldn't be there. You know, such a radical distinction between Israel and the

Church, and, you know, the view of the Church being viewed as just a heavenly people that has nothing to do with the earth, and then

Israel and the nations are on the earth, but the two don't meet. You know, some in the classical era didn't think that the

New Covenant had any relationship to the Church or that there were two New Covenants. So there's certain things like that with classical dispensationalism that I think there were some refinements and some positive progressions.

I think when we think of what can be referred to as modified or revised dispensationalism, that kind of dominated the mid -20th century or the mid -1900s.

And there's a little bit more continuity in the system with the modified dispensationalism, such as understanding that, you know,

Israel and the Church aren't separated in eternity, their destinies, you know, aren't different, they both are going to be part of the

Millennial Kingdom and the New Earth. You know, then there was progressive dispensationalism, which really took off in the late 1980s.

So I think what you probably see today is, you know, I think you see representatives of all three camps today, but I think you see probably, speaking very generally here, most dispensationalists are in the modified and or the progressive camp.

I guess to go back to your question, I tell my students in class that I have elements of modified and progressive dispensationalism, and that I would probably be,

I call myself a tweener in the sense that I, you know, fall in between those. One of the things that I really do like about progressive dispensationalism is they're not afraid to say that there is fulfillment of Old Testament covenants that is taking place in this age.

I look at Galatians chapter 3, you can't deny, you have salvation going to Gentiles, passages that talk about the indwelling

Holy Spirit, we are seeing the fulfillment of the spiritual promises of the New Covenant that are taking place in this age.

It's also true that Christ has come as the ultimate Son of David, so there's Davidic covenant aspects.

I would say of the exalted Messiah from heaven, he's the one that distributes New Covenant blessings. So when it comes to the covenants of promise,

I'm with the progressive dispensationalists on seeing that there is real fulfillment, but it also needs to be understood as well, and they would affirm this, that there is still another era coming before the eternal state where the physical, national, and tangible aspects of the covenant promises still need to be fulfilled.

So I definitely have some progressive leanings. I still am with modified dispensationalists or revised dispensationalists in my belief that the actual

Davidic reign of the Messiah is still future from our standpoint, in Matthew 19, 28,

Jesus linked the sitting on his glorious throne with the regeneration of the planet and the apostles ruling over a restored twelve tribes of Israel.

When you look at Matthew chapter 25, verse 31, Jesus says he's going to sit on his glorious throne at the time of his second coming when he comes with all of his angels.

So within progressive dispensationalism, there's been some who say that there's an already Davidic reign of Christ that's taking place.

I think in Matthew 19, 28, and Matthew 25, verse 31, Jesus explicitly, in a prophetic context, puts his

Davidic reign in the future. So I would be more with the modified on that one. Lew in Sharpsburg, Georgia, revisits us with another question.

He says, do C .I. Schofield and Darby accurately portray pre -trib, pre -mill eschatology?

Well, I would say the answer would be, at a lot of the things that are foundational dispensationalism concerning distinction between Israel and the

Church, you need to take Old Testament prophecies literally, future, future, future, future, future, future, future, future, future, future, future, future, restoration of Israel, beliefs in pre -trib rapture.

I would say for the most part, you know, as I mentioned in my other answer, there have been serious, significant modifications to classical dispensationalism.

So, you know, when people ask me, well, what dispensationalists do you identify, you know, usually

Darby and Schofield aren't the first ones that I mention. I appreciate what they've done, I think they did a lot of good work, but I think there's also been a lot of things that have needed to be refined, so that I think most dispensationalists today would have similarities and dissimilarities with those two men.

Just to clarify something that you said before the break about dispensational and covenantal theology not appearing on the earthly scene until after the

Reformation. I'm sure there, if there are any Roman Catholic apologists listening, they're doing fist pumps and they're applauding and they're jumping up and down.

I'm assuming you did not mean by that, that all of our doctrine and theology as Reformed or dispensational

Christians did not exist before the Reformation and was merely the invention of the Reformers and so on.

Yeah, I mean, I would agree with the way that you just presented that. I'm mostly talking about these systems and systems. I think what you end up finding is, and I would say it's true about covenant theology and dispensationalism, when you look at the specific belief of the systems, you can track a lot of those beliefs back to the early church, but in the early church, they were facing a lot of things.

They were facing persecution, they were facing a lot of heresies. It wasn't really an era of systemization like you would find later.

So what I would say is, I mean, I think it's accurate and fair to identify with the system, but at the same time, we want to look at the individual beliefs and assertions of the system, and of course the main thing is, do they line up with Scripture?

But I think it's also valid to go back to the early church. Like I said, when I go back and look at the early church, there was a belief in futurism, that the tribulation was future, that there would be an actual second coming of Christ, that there was a coming anti -Christ, there was a strong belief in a future

Elijah. At least in the early years of the church, there was a belief in the salvation and restoration of Israel, the significance of the city of Jerusalem.

Like when I look at all those things, those are very consistent with dispensational theology. And as far as I can see from my reading of the

Reformers in regard to the Gospel, they were proving to their

Catholic opponents that the Gospel that the Reformers embraced was not a novel idea, that they were referring often to the

Church Fathers as proof that the Gospel itself was taught long prior to the

Reformation. Right, and I actually work with a fine theologian here at the

Master's Seminary who has just completed a dissertation showing how the

Gospel of justification through faith alone was not an invention of the Reformers, like a lot of people, like the

Catholics and a lot of others want to say, that it was clearly taught in the earliest years of the church.

So I do believe that when it comes to the Gospel and justification through faith alone and those issues that are central to the

Gospel, that those were clearly taught in the early church. By the way, so you

Roman Catholics listening, you can stop giving each other high -fives now, okay? By the way,

I have a Roman Catholic background, too. I was saved out of Roman Catholicism. Yeah, so was I, actually. Eight years of Catholic school, a

Walter Boy and everything. I'm a Walter Boy, too. In 1 Peter 2 .9,

we read, but you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Is this a description of the church or Israel? That's another good question.

I would just want to point, I think there's two areas I want to address this issue on. Sometimes this is used as a proof text for a replacement or fulfillment theology to some other churches in Israel.

There's a pretty strong, long tradition in church history in the early church, even including Calvin, including even many today who believe that 1

Peter was written specifically to a believing Jewish audience, and if that ended up being the case, it would be similar to the

Israel of God that Paul refers to in Galatians 6 .16. I'm not saying that view is right, but there is a long tradition of that, of people who have held that view, and you know,

Peter was an apostle to the Jews, for him to write a letter that would be primarily to them wouldn't be that surprising.

I do know most scholars today take 1 Peter as including Gentiles in the audience, and if that ended up being the case,

I think this would affirm the truth of several passages of Isaiah 19, verses 24 to 25, where we're told not that the concept of Israel would expand to include

Gentiles, but the concept of the people of God would be expanded to include believing

Gentiles alongside believing Jews. In Isaiah 19, 24 to 25, it's talking about in that day, you know, referring to Kingdom Messianic times, there's the statement that Egypt would be the people of God.

That's interesting that it was predicted in the Old Testament that a title used of Israel or a designation, the people of God, would someday be expanded to include

Gentiles. But also in Isaiah 19, 24 to 25, we see Assyria, you know, who's the work of God's hands, and then we're also told that Israel is there, you know,

Israel, my inheritance. So personally, what I think could be going on here with 1

Peter 2 .9 is that, you know, if he's not calling the church Israel of the 73 references to Israel in the

New Testament, there's not one that doesn't have an ethnic Jewish element to it, or something Galatians 6 .16

does, but I'm convinced that's referring to believing Jews as well. So I think what's going on here is

Peter is telling his readers that, you know, designations that were used of Israel are now being used of you, which is very consistent with the message of Isaiah 19, 24 to 25.

So this text is not a proof text for fulfillment theology or replacement theology or supersessionism. It's just indicating that because of the

Messiah, the people of God include the believing Gentiles and believing Jews.

In Romans 11, we get the concept from Paul that the

Gentiles have been grafted in with the

Jews. And how could this be, how could Israel and the church be totally separate?

Because the Gentile believers are not grafted into Israel as a nation or as an ethnicity.

So explain that to me, please. Well, I think the key to understanding, and I think what we're going here is the olive tree analogy of Romans 11.

And I think the key is understanding, because this is a continuity passage in regard to believing

Jews and Gentiles here, there's no doubt about it. I think the rich root of the olive tree of Romans 11, 17 is the promises of the

Abrahamic covenant, of which I would see the Davidic covenant and the New Covenant as extensions of those. But I think the key to understanding is that if the rich root of the olive tree is the promises of the covenant and the

Abrahamic covenant in particular, Genesis 12, 2 -3 indicated that the

Abrahamic covenant would include the nation Israel as the means of blessing the people groups of the world.

So what this means is that the Old Testament, including the covenants of promise,

Abrahamic, Davidic, and New, they're given via the nation Israel, but they extend then to the

Gentiles. And so the covenants are not just the possession of Israel. And that's one thing

I think is important to understand, is that the covenants of promise in the Old Testament include the Gentiles. So what

I think is taking place here, what Paul's talking about in Romans 11, 17 -24, is that Israel's naturally related, now as I say that,

I'm not saying all Jews are believers, a Jew has to trust in Christ in order to be saved, but Israel is naturally related to the covenants of promise.

Because of their unbelief, they've been temporarily cut off and Gentiles have been grafted in.

I mean, I'm a Gentile, you know, my lineage goes back to the old, you know, Czechoslovakia, I mean,

I'm not Jewish, but I believe in Israel's Messiah. I get the benefits of the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New covenants in my life, as do other believers, both

Jew and Gentile. I've been grafted into those promises. But we're also told in Romans 11, because that's coming up in verses 25 and following, that there's going to come a day in which all

Israel will be saved. Romans 11, 27 tells us that after all

Israel is saved, that they're going to be linked with the new covenant. This is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

So Israel's going to be grafted again, you know, into the promises, they're going to participate in the new covenant.

So what we're seeing here is there's a unity in the sense of believing Jews and Gentiles linked to the covenants of promise, but that doesn't mean believing

Gentiles become Israel. So there's both unity and diversity within the people of God. There's unity in that Jews and Gentiles are all saved in the same

Messiah, they participate in the covenants of promise, but they don't become each other. Any more than a man becomes a woman, or a woman becomes a man,

Gentiles don't become Jews, and Jews don't become Gentiles. I think that's talked more about in Ephesians 2, 11 through chapter 3, verse 6, where they come together and they work together in the people of God.

Now I'm sure you've heard of the parenthesis theory about the church, that the church is just a parenthesis in history between the times of God dealing with Israel in the old covenant and the future.

Do you hold to that theory of the church being a parenthesis, and maybe if you want to even describe that a little more fully?

Yeah, I don't like using the word parenthesis because I think... I'm not saying you're doing this, but I'd say a lot of times the parenthesis concept is kind of used in a pejorative sense, in the sense of, well, the church really isn't that important.

I mean, it's God dealing with Israel, and oh yeah, there's the church that comes in the middle, and then we get on to the good stuff with Israel. That's what's...

and again, I'm not saying you're saying that, I know you're not. But in the sense of unimportant or small, or just a temporary blip on the screen, no,

I don't think that the church is a parenthesis. Now, I do think when you study Romans 11,

Paul makes it very clear that in Romans 11, 1, that God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

You know, in Romans 9, 3 to 4, it's pretty clear he's talking about his descendants, his kinsmen, you know, those who are

Israelites. He does say in Romans 11 that there has been a temporary hardening of Israel.

I mean, there's a sense in which, you know, according to Luke 19, 41 to 44,

Jesus says, you missed your day of visitation. And I think in Luke 19, 41 to 44,

I think he predicts the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that would take place in AD 70. I think Jesus also predicts that in Luke 21, verses 20 to 24.

So there is a sense Israel has missed their Messiah because of sin and unbelief, and there's a sense now, we know that there's two comings of the

Messiah, which is something that the Old Testament didn't explicitly predict, but we are in this era where there is the

Church, and we are dealing, you know, primarily, not exclusively, but primarily with Gentile salvation.

That's what's coming in Romans 11, 25, you know, we're told that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the

Gentiles has come in, and then or so, or, you know, in this manner, all Israel will be saved. So he's talking about a future salvation of Israel.

So is it true that Israel missed their day of visitation, that they're experiencing judgment, that the kingdom baton, the message of the kingdom, has been given to the

Church to proclaim it to the nations? I mean, that's absolutely true. But is it also true that there's a coming millennial reign of Christ, where the last

Adam is going to reign from and over the earth in a successful way, and that will include Israel, and that will include the nations?

Well, that's also true. And I would just add one other thing to that. If you look at Revelation chapter 2, verses 26 to 27, and Revelation 3, 21, there's the promise that when

Jesus comes to rule the nations, those that are a part of the Church are also going to rule the nations with him.

Revelation 2 to 3 indicates that the Church is persecuted during this era, but for those who overcome, they are going to rule the nations with him, which is discussed in Psalm 2.

So I think it's in that context that I think you have to understand the Church -Israel relationship. Maybe if you could just summarize what your view is on the distinction between the

Church and Israel. Yeah, I would say Israel in the Bible always has an ethnic element.

So in other words, when you see references to Israel, including the 73 references in the New Testament, there's never a

Gentile element to that. It's always Jewish. Now, that's not a statement that all Jews are saved, and I think there are cases like Romans 9 -6 and Galatians 6 -16 where Israel is used specifically of the believing remnant of Israel.

So I would say that Israel is the people of God, that you have to be, according to Romans 11 though, that it's the remnant who's the one who's going to inherit the promises.

You do see a remnant who believes today there is a coming salvation of all Israel. So I think Israel in the past has been theologically significant.

Israel is going to be saved and restored in the future, according to passages like Acts 1 -6,

Matthew 23 -39, and other passages. So they're theologically significant.

To me, my understanding of the Church is that the Church is the new covenant community of God of believing

Jews and Gentiles as it exists in this age before Jesus comes again to rule the nations in his kingdom.

So the Church is the one that has the baton of the kingdom message, it proclaims the kingdom to the world.

The Church is persecuted in this age, but when Jesus comes to reign, we're told, and I think

Paul stated that if we endure, we will reign with him, that when

Jesus comes again, those who are part of the Church are going to be part of the ruling of the nations. Now, you have two books.

One is titled, Has the Church Replaced Israel? And the other is,

The Church as a Replacement of Israel. How do you respond to those amillennial and postmillennial

Christians who object to that phrase, replacement theology, because they themselves don't use it, and they believe that there is a stark difference between the

Church being a fulfillment of old covenant Israel rather than a replacement of Israel.

How do you respond to that? Because I have personally, I can say, I've never heard amill or postmill

Christians describe their own theology as replacement theology. Yeah, and I would say, first of all, that I have.

I mean, there's a brand new book put out, a four -view book on Israel and the Church, where the covenant theology representative twice refers to our

Lord's replacement theology. If you look in my book,

Has the Church Replaced Israel?, you'll see statements where there are people who use replacement terminology.

So the thing is, that's there. Not only is it there in the past, but it's still taking place. Now, I will say this. I do understand, but I don't want to force a title on somebody.

There are a lot of people who react negatively to the replacement theology title. I'm more concerned with the concept.

I hear a lot of talk today about, I don't believe in replacement theology, I believe in fulfillment theology. But when

I ask them what they mean, it ends up being the same thing. I mean, if somebody denies the theological significance of the nation

Israel because of what they think has taken place in the New Testament, it ends up being a form of replacement theology.

I talk about there's different types of replacement theology. There's just different forms. Some are more harsh and some more soft than others.

But the thing is, that's usually what I do in my writing. I'll say, replacement theology or supersessionism or fulfillment theology.

I'm more interested in the concept. I know some people don't like the title. Others use it. But the main thing is, what do you believe?

If a person doesn't believe that there's theological significance to the nation Israel, I consider that a form of replacement theology.

We can call it fulfillment theology. We can call it supersessionism or whatever. But the idea is the same. If you could, in a minute, just unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds.

I would just encourage the readers that eschatology is not something to run from. I think we live in an era in evangelicalism where there's almost an agnosticism when it comes to eschatology because there's all these different views.

People are like, I don't want to study it or it's too hard. Don't do that. Study the scriptures. Study them hard.

At least one -fourth of the Bible is prophecy. Eschatology is a major part of the

Bible's storyline. It's a major part of the Christian worldview. We have creation, we have fall, we have redemption in Christ, and we have a coming restoration of all things.

So don't punt on eschatology. Don't act like it's not important. Don't act like the millennium doesn't matter.

Jesus, the last Adam, needs to rule from and over the realm where the first Adam failed, and he's going to do that in the millennial kingdom.

And that's something we should all be excited about and look forward to while we're persecuted in this age. And I assume that, like the founder of your seminary that you're on the faculty at,

I'm assuming that like Dr. John MacArthur, you don't use your differences on eschatology as a club to bash over the heads of other believers and that we can find great harmony in Christ over the gospel and other matters that are far more salvific.

At the seminary here at Grace Community Church, we partner with people of different eschatological views.

We understand that millennial views are not at the heart of the gospel and we can agree to disagree. We think it's important, but we don't split fellowship on that issue.

I want to thank you so much for being an excellent guest today. I look forward to having you back, perhaps on your book on philosophy.

I would love to interview you on that, and I want to repeat your website, theologicalstudies .org, and Pastor Ron Glass, who you heard in the first hour, his website is wrbc .us.

I want you all to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.