Witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning

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I've had a number of requests from folks for follow -ups and discussions on the dividing line and Since I did want to write more on The brief article that I posted

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I believe Friday night or Saturday one of the two I Thought I'd go ahead and do that and take the opportunity

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Maybe doing a little discussion on the subject of dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses It has been quite some time since we have dealt with that particular issue

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Certainly for me having the opportunity last Friday afternoon to spend two and a half hours with a

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Jehovah's Witness elder In the home of one of the members of my church was a privilege

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But it was also the first time that I had had that opportunity in many many years

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They don't come by my my house anymore They go through the neighborhood, but they assiduously avoid my particular location for some odd reason

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And that was the last time that we had had a conversation with them was at my own doorstep

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But it used to be something I did much more often I think part of the reason for that was at one time being a part of very large

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Southern Baptist Church You had just more opportunities I mean they'd be coming across members of a very very large church more often than a small church

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And so you would have people who would contact you and you'd have the opportunity of meeting with Jehovah's Witnesses Now of course the way that I approach it is not the way that I would suggest to everyone else

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I have over the Probably the past three or four times That I have met with Jehovah's Witnesses what

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I have done Is I've really just come straight out and said this is who

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I am this is what I do I teach for the Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary I've taught

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Greek and Hebrew and systematic theology and Christology and church history and so on so forth and I Generally teach on the subject of apologetics

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Which means I have had to address your own beliefs many times now normally That'll get your average

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Jehovah's Witnesses zipping up the book bag if you've ever met with Jehovah's Witnesses you know that they generally have a a

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Book bag with them. I have a book bag with me too in these encounters But generally when you see them putting their

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New World Translation or the Kingdom in Linear or whatever into the book bag and zipping it Up that's pretty much the end of that But what

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I do is I immediately follow up that introduction with could I summarize for you

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What I understand the central elements of your faith to be and I've never had one say no

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They're rather interested to see how well someone could summarize Their their their faith and so I go through and I use their own language

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You have to be a little bit careful about that. There are Jehovah's Witnesses that are extremely skittish and They take very very seriously the society's

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Command not to have anything to do with a former Jehovah's Witness now. I am NOT a former Jehovah's Witness I have never been associated with Watchtower Bible and Track Society in any way shape or form

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But I have had people accuse me of that I remember very clearly being in one lady's house once and these two witness ladies came in and after a brief conversation they were

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Absolutely certain that I was a guy named Chuck Love Now there that was a guy in the

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Phoenix area. I have no idea where is I've never met him At least I don't think I ever met him if I did meet him

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I have no recollection of ever having met him. I've heard of him named Chuck Love who Was a former

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Jehovah's Witness and before I ever got involved studying witnesses it had some type of ministry in the area to Jehovah's Witnesses, but I also heard he was rather wealthy and I remember what was funny was that the car that I had driven to this meeting this particular meeting was a 1964

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Dodge Dart and Initially when I bought the car, no two body panels were the same color, but I had gotten the

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Earl Schaub paint job now know that riches Riches nose just curled up the other room

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Earl Schaub member Earl Schaub I don't know what I think I paid nine to nine dollars for that paint job 99

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It was white because it didn't have air conditioning and I live in Phoenix and But it was bad and you know,

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I mean this was a funny -looking vehicle so that's what's parked outside and I even offered them my driver's license.

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You want to see my I am NOT Chuck love. What are you talking about? They were absolutely convinced. They figured

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I had faked the driver's license. I drove In the summer heat in Phoenix in a 64

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Dodge Dart with air -conditioning just to fool them It was funny. So some of them are really really focused on this.

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Don't talk to former Jehovah's Witnesses things so when you Use their language you have to be careful

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And in this conversation last Friday I was you know, I've made it very clear that I've never been associated with the watchtower on track sighting in any way shape or form

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Someone just pulled up wonky just just posted a link to the 1964

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Dodge Dart in in channel and That's I wonder if it's

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I wonder if it looks like Yep, yep. Yep. That's the 1964 Dodge Dart now now put that put that 64

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Dodge I put a big old black hood scoop on it mags and glass packs and That's that's what

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I was driving it Mine was a two -door.

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That's a four -door. That's right. Yeah, that's a four -door mine was a two -door but you know still a 64 Dodge Dart Her face ransacking the internet now looking for But Anyway, hey get up and go there's no question about that And that was good because you had to have all the windows rolled down before the heat stroke killed you in July Let me tell you something around here.

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But anyway, that is neither here nor there So I I made it very clear to him that I was not supposed to the society, but I used their language

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And I went through and I gave as accurate as Clear as full a summary of the central doctrines the watchtower bottom track society as I possibly could there's a reason for this

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It's it's two reasons The functional reason is that in my experience so far every time

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I've done this the individual witness with whom I was speaking was just simply blown away and I in essence purchased for myself some time to speak

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Before the barriers come up and the person's marching out the door and It also shows for them

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I think one of the reasons they're they're amazed is they're just not accustomed to encountering anybody

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Who would study their faith and be able to represent it accurately without using?

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Deprecating terms and and things like that and so That's what

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I did. I went through and I gave the outline of their faith. You know, there's one God Jehovah the one thing he created directly was the master worker

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Michael the Archangel through whom all other things are created and you know went through what they believe about Jesus and the

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Holy Spirit and salvation and Jehovah's Organization and 144 ,000 and the great crowd and and just sort of summarized the the whole thing using their own language and then

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I asked so how's that? It's like That's very good.

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You know, he was he was sort of amazed Well that gave me the opportunity to then, you know start talking and eventually he said well

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Explain to me What what you mean by the Trinity?

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Oh, okay To and so what I do in that situation is

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I go through the text identified Jesus Jehovah Why would I do that and explain the Trinity? well, because what

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I say to the witness I want to give to the witness an explanation that they probably

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They should but they probably have not heard before. I Want to get some thoughts started this man has been a

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Jehovah's Witness for 32 years He has been going door -to -door for over three decades in the summer heat of of Arizona and believe me he has heard it all before and So I have to somehow

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Get a thought process going here. I have to get him hearing me For what

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I'm saying rather than what he's heard over and over and over again. That's what I'm trying to do and so With Jehovah's Witnesses and I even

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I said this specifically I said you'd have to agree with me You and I may argue back and forth as to whether Jesus is

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God or a God But if Jesus is Yahweh if Jesus is

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Jehovah Then the arguments over and he agreed the argument if Jesus identifies Jehovah, then the argument would be over And so what

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I've found is that most Jehovah's Witnesses find it somewhat useful if you

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In essence Say well, here's here's how I understand the

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Trinity There is one eternal God who is identified by that divine name

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Yahweh and yet there are three distinct persons To whom that name is applied in Scripture We cannot confuse the persons and yet the one name that scribes the being of God is applied to them

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That's why I'm forced to believe in the Trinity So you'd agree with me that the father is identified as Yahweh is

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Jehovah in the New Testament, right? well, well, of course, well where we disagree or at least I think we disagree is that The Son likewise is identified as Jehovah and the

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Spirit is the Spirit of Jehovah. Can I show you some text? Where this takes place now? The this meeting took place because the preceding

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Saturday this gentleman to come up while out on service ministry And a member of our church was working on some laying some concrete and And had a discussion with this man and he had shared one of the two texts that I share with Jehovah's Witnesses Identifying Jesus as Jehovah.

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He had already shown him the John 12 39 through 41 and Isaiah 6 passage

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And so I went to the Psalm 102 Initially misidentified as Psalm 110, but I went to Psalm 102 25 27 passage which is used in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 and So I went through very carefully had

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I read from the New World Translation Had him agree with me. This is very important that what is being described in Psalm 102 when it talks about Yahweh is having an unchanging nature and the the creation will be

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Changed like a garment. It'll be all rolled up because it ages but his years are always the same

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He does not change that only Jehovah is Unchangeable that these are unique attributes and then

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I went to Hebrews chapter 1 read that and He never answered that what he did is he backtracked back to verse 9 and again raised the whole issue of the

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Trinity because well God your God, etc, etc But he never dealt with Actually really didn't deal with any of the texts that I that I brought up even though later in the you know

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About two and a half hours. He was talking about how you know I hadn't convinced him of anything, but everybody who was watching knew that that really wasn't the case.

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But anyway So the conversation that that's how I started the conversation and it like I said, it gave me two and a half hours

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You know, I've been in situations where I had 20 minutes So two and a half hours is better than better than nothing and as I said on in the blog article

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I would love to be able to report to you that This gentleman, you know left the

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Watchtower Society and and will be attending church next Sunday to be baptized or something That's generally not what happens with someone who has been in a religious movement for 32 years.

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It takes time Everyone that I know of who has left the society for the proper reason

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In other words, there's lots of people who leave Jehovah's Witnesses over time They just get burned out by the the tight control and things like that But they end up that they're religiously abused that the people who don't believe anything

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Those who've left the society for the right reasons and have embraced faith in Christ Will tell you that it's eventually somewhere at the beginning of their journey.

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They ran into a Christian who actually knew their Bible and Could respond to them most

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Jehovah's Witnesses Honestly believe there's nothing else to look at if the society isn't it? There's nothing else to look into because there's nobody who knows the

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Bible well enough, etc, etc, etc. So It is an important thing to give a witness in that context

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And to demonstrate that the Bible does not teach what the society Teaches now in the conversation we talked about a number of things.

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I talked about a number of mistranslations in the New World Translation. I went to the

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Carmen Christi I always try to get to Philippians 2 5 to 11 because I have seen that text really helped

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Jehovah's Witnesses to understand What it is we're talking about because I emphasize very strongly

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Notice what happens here? Jesus makes himself of no reputation.

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He empties himself This is something he does and every time he'd try to deal with that text.

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He'd have Jehovah just sending Jesus and I'm like no. No, wait a minute. You're talking about this is

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Michael Who's a spirit creature and now Jesus who has no spirit, but are you saying that Michael emptied himself or that Jehovah?

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Took the spirit Michael and created Jesus and he just could not deal with the with the reality of the fact that Jesus Empties himself.

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That's a reflexive pronoun There's something that the Sun does the Sun has to be pre -existent has to have that capacity and power to do this so Went through all of those but the one thing

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I wanted to share especially on the program today was the one instance where we went to the book of Revelation and As it had happened

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I could I didn't mention this In in our conversation, but I could not help but think of part of the cross -examination period that took place between myself and Greg Stafford back in 2003 in the

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Tampa, Florida Now let me give you the the context here wrong

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Revelation chapters 4 & 5 Present the heavenly scene.

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Let me remind you of what we have here beginning of Revelation 4 or 2 and once I was in the spirit and behold the throne stood in heaven with one seed on the

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Throne and he who sat there had the appearance of Jasper and carnelian and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald

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Around the throne were 24 elders and seed on the thrones were I'm sorry We're 24 thrones and seeing the thrones 24 elders clothed in white garments with golden crowns on their heads

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From the throne came flashes of lightning and rumblings and peals of thunder and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire

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Which are the seven spirits of God and before the throne? There was as it were a sea of glass like crystal and around the throne each side of the throne are four living creatures full

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Of eyes in front of behind the first living creature like a lion so on so forth It describes the living creatures and notice it says

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And day and night they never ceased to say holy. Holy. Holy is the Lord God Almighty who was and is and is to come

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Again a very similar picture to what we have in Isaiah chapter 6 from more than seven centuries earlier

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And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne who lives forever and ever the 24

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Elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever they cast their crowns before the throne

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Saying worthy are you our Lord and God receive glory and honor and power for you create all things and by your will they existed

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And were created now very clearly in this short chapter you have the continuous never -ending worship of God upon his throne and So these these 24 elders they're falling down, and they're they're worshiping him who lives forever and ever and how is this worship expressed?

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Worthy are you to receive glory and honor and power? Etc etc. This is the heavenly worship now if that's all we had and if there wasn't a a

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Controversy About the Trinity or the deed of Christ something like that there were never any question about this anybody who would read this would go

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Obviously this is the worship of God in heaven but you see the problem is we get into Revelation chapter 5 and The issue of the scroll with the seven seals comes up and and no one in heaven and earth is found

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Who's worthy to open the scroll and to break the seals and and John begins to weep?

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And verse 5 says well the elders said to me weep no more Behold the line of the tribe of Judah the root of David has conquered so he can open the scroll in seven seals now

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Keep Revelation 4 in mind because that was that's the immediate context We're still in the same place, we're this is still the same throne.

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This is still the same scene and Ask yourself What's going on regards to?

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The lamb notice it says beginning verse 6 in between the throne the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a lamb standing as though it had been slain with seven horns of a seven eyes

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Which are the seven spirits of God sent out on all the earth and? He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne and when he had taken the scroll

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The four living creatures and 24 elders fell down before the lamb now What had they done in the preceding chapter just a few verses before this remember these chapters chapter divisions are all arbitrary

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This could have just been one chapter very easily chapter 4 is very short there were no chapter divisions initially and so this is one continuous stream and So we've seen the worship of God taking place these elders are falling down They're ascribing honor and glory.

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This is what the worship around the throne is But here when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and 24 elders fell down before the lamb

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Each holding a harp in the golden bowls of incense which are the prayers of the Saints and they sang a new song saying

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Worthy are you? To take the scroll and open its seals for you were slain and by your blood you ran some people for God From every tribe and language and people a nation and you have made them a kingdom priest to our

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God And they shall reign on the earth Then I looked and I heard around the throne and living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels

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Numbering myriads and myriads and thousands of thousands saying with loud voice Worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing

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You can't separate this From what came before this is the same

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Heavenly worship that he who sits upon the throne was receiving in chapter 4 and Then notice verse 13 and I heard every creature in heaven and on earth every created thing is

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The Greek term every created thing in heaven and earth and under the sea under the earth and in the sea and all that is in them saying

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To him that no ask yourself a question listen here to him who sits on the throne and To the lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever now

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Simple grammatical question Who to whom are these words said to him who sits on the throne and?

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to the lamb It's right there in the text and to the lamb there is a dual

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Object a dual object These words to him who sits on the throne and to the lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever and the four living creatures said amen and the elders fell down and worshiped now there can be no question of What's going on here and there can be no question of the object of the heavenly worship is he who sits on the throne and the lamb

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Who has been in the preceding verse by the way? removed from the realm of the created order for all creation bows down and says these things to he who sits on the throne and to the lamb

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But when you're a Jehovah's Witness And the text isn't your final authority The text isn't the final authority instead you have this filter

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Now I'm thankful that the text is is very plain The text is very balanced.

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There's no basis here for the oneness Pentecostals who try to identify the father and the son

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The lamb is not the one sitting on the throne. There's one who sits upon the throne, and there's the lamb They are distinguished from one another, but they are both the objects of worship

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There's only one true God You've got all sorts of imbalances that you can grab here

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You know become the Mormons become a polytheist or you know deny the distinction the father and the son become one this

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Pentecostal but You have the balance of the text of Scripture itself when you talk to Jehovah's Witnesses Entire Phrases can disappear off the page you see at one point.

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I asked this Jehovah's Witness elder Who are the elders? worshipping in verse 14 and he said the one who sits on the throne period

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The lamb has just disappeared and as soon as he said that I didn't say it but Ready for play a clip for you here listen to this exchange

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It took place Let's see Not quite five years ago now no over five years is

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December of 2003 so it's over five years ago now This exchange took place during the cross -examination myself and Greg Stafford We read holy holy holy is

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Lord God Almighty The one who was and is and is to come Did I understand your response

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To me at the beginning of your rebuttal period to be that that is not an act of worship In Revelation chapter 4 verses 9 through 11 that is an act of worship

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Okay, what about Revelation chapter 4 verse 8 the term prosecute? No is not used there So when these creatures are saying holy holy holy is

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Lord God Almighty who was and who is and is to come? Obviously paralleling Isaiah 6 are you saying that worship is not going on there because the term prosecute no is not used

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My point was that you made a point about the use of proscenio in the context of those other Actions being done towards the one seat on the throne and then proceeded to make a parallel with the actions done towards the lamb in chapter 5

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Implying that this use of proscenio and the associated actions

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Surrounding these events somehow implied that the proscenio given to the lamb which is never given to the lamb in this context

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But yet it seemed you implied that it was was of such great Significance because of all these associated actions that it could only be the proscenio due to God alone

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My point was that since proscenio was never given to the lamb directly in this contents your point was moved

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But is it not fundamental to your argument the proscenio itself has to be used for your argument to be relevant

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It's fundamental to your argument. I pointed out that it wasn't there therefore. It was a fundamental flaw Okay, so my whole point.

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I'm trying to make I'm trying to understand what you're saying here because In Revelation chapter 5 verse 14 when it says the elders bowed down in worship.

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This is after all created things Address him who's sitting upon the throne and the lamb would you agree that the phrase and the lamb is in verse 13 yes?

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Okay, so upon what? Textual exegetical basis do you believe that the proscenio verse 14 all of a sudden ignores the lamb?

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I'm not saying ignores it I'm saying it doesn't make it specific to either one or the other or both you asserted that it was specific

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To the lamb at least and so my that would be a question you would have to answer Now that wasn't an answer, and I think everybody knows that I think it's a

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I'm not saying it's buddy the one You've just had all creation

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Bowing down before he was at the throne the lamb, and then you've got this mention of worship, and well We're not sure what we're worshiping

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No, it's it's so obvious and as soon as I I heard this Jehovah's Witness elder

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Saying what what he said I could not help, but think of this exact situation

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Where no matter how? Clear the text is no matter how compelling the text is

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False teaching functions as a filter that just simply Gets rid of entire words on on a page and If you're wondering how it ended

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We we offered to give him a copy of the Forgotten Trinity, and he wouldn't take it and We ended up spending half an hour discussing why he wouldn't take it and the fact that I can read anything

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He has you know he had the reasoning from the scriptures book And I said you know I was in the I was I attended district convention where that was released

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I've had it since the first day. It was available I Can read everything you offer to me?

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I can take the watchtower you can give me anything you have in your bag there, and I can examine it I said

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I'm telling you that there are mistranslations. I gave him specific mistranslations nwt I said now How are you going to be able to study this to find out whether what

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I'm saying is right or wrong if you cannot examine? This information What you tell me is you'll only look at what's pro watchtower not what's well?

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No, I can do that will then take the book. No. I won't do that and It was very clear because it wasn't just he and I there there was other members of the church.

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There is very very clear that He just simply did not have any means of defending that double standard

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Now he wouldn't even take my business card And then he said he'd be willing to talk to the church member

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That he had originally talked to but he wouldn't be willing to talk to me again Because well you're a scholar now.

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I'm not a scholar and so on so forth and I'm just like but again, I've I've I've Spoken to you from the text of Scripture you and I agree.

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This is this is God's Word And yet one of us can examine all of what it says and one of us cannot

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And of course we prayed afterwards that he would remember those things and and that's one of the main reasons

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I really emphasize focusing upon biblical topics and talking to witnesses is I know they're not going to take my book

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I know they're not going to take a track. I'm going to take my business card, but I've never had a

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Jehovah's Witness leave an encounter without taking their Bible with them And so if I have shown them these things in their own

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Bibles that's the best thing that they can take with them and remind them of the things that that we have said and So that was

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I wanted to how add a discussion to the blog article on Revelation four and five

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I just didn't it takes a long time to type all that kind of stuff up and I thought it would Work a little bit better playing the clip here so you can hear it and I've even got a little camera running so I might throw this video up on YouTube So that this information is available for folks because you know

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It's been a long time since I had an opportunity to talk to Jehovah's Witness But I'll bet you there's a bunch of folks in our listening audience that'll have that opportunity a whole lot more often than I will

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And so if you're confident in your faith, you know what you believe then that gives you the opportunity of doing that So there's some practical apologetics from my own experience just last

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Friday. Hope that's useful to you We're gonna take our break and come right back eight seven seven seven five three three three four one be right back here on the dividing line

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Thank you Dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning good to have you along with us eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

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We'll go ahead and take Phone call real quick here before moving on to the next subject on the program today.

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Let's talk with Jonathan. Hi, Jonathan Dr. White, how are you doing? Yes, sir I like the first just thank you for your continuing work and I'm helping to edify the church church and guard the truth

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I do have a quick question regarding the definition of the

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Commandments of God that are provided in the New Testament Particularly in the epistle of 1st

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John there's a various times he mentions He commands Christians to keep the commandments of God For example in Chapter 5 verse 3 says for this is the love of God that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not

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Burdensome among others among other verses And also the

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Lord mentions in the gospel of John In chapter 15 verse 10, if you keep my commandments you abide in my love

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Just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love So I began to wonder what are the commandments

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That is being spoken of here in the New Testament and in the book of Deuteronomy in chapter 30 verse 10 is

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And as I as I see it point to the location of the commandments And it is written there if you obey the

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Lord your God and keep his commandments and his statutes Which are written in the book in this book of the law if you turn the

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Lord your God with all your heart and soul Etc, etc So my question to you

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What are the commandments that are being defined here and which ones from the Old Testament? Do we still still observe or do we not observe and why?

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well, obviously, it's a very large area of discussion The term commandments appears to see one two, three, four five six six times in in first John you have the exhortation to keep

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His commandments one of the commandments is very clearly laid out is loving the brethren

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Walking in the light, etc, etc and so and he says this is not a new commandment and yet sometimes he says this is a new commandment that the idea of being that this this idea of the body of Christ and the love that is to exist in the body of Christ is something that while connected to what

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God has done in the past is also there's a newness to it as well, but the Overall question has to do with how we identify specifically what it is

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When Gia says if you love me keep my commandments. Well, what commandments does adding does that include and Obviously, it is not the intention of the

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New Testament. This is one of the problems I have with certain forms of New Testament theology. It's not the intention of the

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New Testament to Restate everything to go back and say, okay basically everything in in the

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Old Covenant is gone and The New Covenant Here's here's the only one parts that that are consistent between the two so we have to restate everything

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So there there there are people who would say if it's not restated in the New Testament Then you don't have to worry about it any longer

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I think that a lot of the arguments that people have had over the in the past over such issues of this

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Seem to be somewhat simplistic to me. And what I mean by that is we tend to be looking for some type of a

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Listing where we can just go. Oh here they are. We can go to Paul's vice lists and We can go up Okay Just take the vice lists and if he lists as being bad, then we can we can create the positive command out of that Etc, etc.

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Well while all of that's well and good. I think that what you have in in reality is the fact that in the scriptures we have

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Principles given to us that we are to live out and that Are not meant to be black and white and simple because the gospel isn't something that is to be applied to only one

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Cultural context in other words One of the arguments that Muslims make against the

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Bible in the New Testament is that well, you know We we've got the exact we've got exactly what you're supposed to do exactly how you supposed to dress

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Exactly how you're supposed to eat when you're supposed to pray how you supposed to stand which hand goes over which first la la la la la you've got this this

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Absolute list which unfortunately means for Islam to really be lived out in full

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Means you have to be in Islamic society and it basically has to look like well 7th century

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Arabia if it's really going to be lived out in its fullness The gospel isn't limited in that way and so there is this thing called

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Christian maturity where there is supposed to be this constant reflection upon God's will for our lives as revealed in his law and that does mean there's reflection upon the

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Old Testament law and Mature discussion about The application of that law in our day

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And I've had a number of discussions about this on the program the past wasn't really prepared for it today, but just in general one of the

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Examples that I think has been Properly used that's used by a lot of people is the command of the

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Israelites to have have a parapet a a means of keeping people from in essence falling off the roof of the house because the roof was used as a

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Main area of living in those days. It didn't have central air conditioning and especially in a desert area as it cools off at night

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That would be the best place to go to catch the cool air and to get out of the very hot house because the house

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Collects a lot of heat. Well, the law is you know, that's it's a wonderful place to be

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But if you fall off it can break your neck So there needs to be a concern of a general concern about safety where people are going to be

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We don't live on the roofs of our houses anymore and so it'd be sort of silly for me to have a Fence around the roof of my house.

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My house has a pitch to it. That doesn't make it overly fun to be on and so There there needs to be an application of thinking through why did

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God command the Israelites to do this type of thing? And I think when you go through the Holiness Code a few years ago

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Sometime last last year. I went through a discussion of some of the Holiness Code issues in Leviticus 18 19 and 20 and the fact that we need to look at what the context is look at the

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Pagan practices the people around Israel and make application today. It may not mean that the specific issue

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Is any longer an issue today, but the principle involved with it is and so yeah and and I realized a lot of Christians don't like that idea of Having to make application of having to work through things of allowing for Differences maybe even in different cultures as to how this is going to be understood

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We just want it just oh, you know Give me give me black and white or this just must not be true

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And and I think that's a low view of scripture to be perfectly honest with you and a low view of the work of the Spirit of God amongst the people of God as well.

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You're saying something I'm sorry, you were saying something. It sounded like you were saying something. I'm sorry.

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No, no, okay. All right, so so yeah, so I think that All the discussions about the the moral and ceremonial law are are perfectly valid They need to be examined, you know,

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Jesus very make it makes it very very clear. He made all meats clean Okay, what does that mean? How do we how do we identify what a ceremonial law is?

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How do we identify which parts the law specifically marked the people of God?

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Apart from the people around them in the old days and that those are no longer relevant today

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We know the dietary laws fit into that because Jesus said that but where you get a lot of disagreements amongst people are some of the other applications of the laws and How many had to do with the fact that you were dealing with?

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People who lived many thousands of years ago in a non advanced society and this provided them with with a means of of Self -identification

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How do you deal with that in a day where you have such technological advancement as we have today?

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None of those are easy questions But they are I think I think unfortunately we look at them as a as a negative

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Rather than as what they really are that is a positive an invitation to delve into the depth of the

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Word of God and to discuss these things and to and to see applications and to engage in prayer and so on so I Think I certainly see this being involved in apologetics because I always have to deal with these things being used as objections and I have to be

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I have to be very very careful that I don't fall into a constant mindset of Well, I mean,

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I wish that wasn't the Bible because now I'm gonna have to deal with this objection so on and so forth Instead I try to see these things as positive things

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For example the the the synoptic gospel issues and the parallel issues between the synoptic gospels

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It would be real easy doing what I do dealing with the people that I deal with to look at those things as real

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Negatives rather than seeing that God has given us this I mean Jesus ministry was too big for just one snapshot of it

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And so we have this this multi -form picture of Jesus's ministry and and seeing how these things

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Work together to give us a fuller revelation of Jesus is exciting But obviously when you have to deal with the

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Muslim or the atheist or whatever who's using these as just basic, you know Beat you over the over the over the head with with objections type things, you know, that's that's when it gets a little bit different.

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So When we when we talk about the commandments of Christ You know that obviously requires us to look at a very broad

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Picture not only of the Old Testament, but then the application of this in all of the epistles In in this

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I think John is summarizing for us in in first John. I think he's summarizing for us

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Look, what does the law say love God and love your neighbor? So how does this apply within the church?

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Well, you know if you don't have a love for the brethren then clearly you're walking in darkness so on so forth

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So what about the command of I'm sorry to interrupt but you you're mentioning some of the commandment commandments

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What about the one of keeping the Sabbath? and How did when did the church decide that wasn't priority or does it still consider it priority?

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but we just don't talk about it well, you see that really depends on your tradition and the

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Reformed would say that Would well the Reformed take a number of different perspectives

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There's a continental view of the Sabbath and there's the Puritan view of the Sabbath and there's a people considerably more

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Adept at discussing discussing the different views there. There are many who would say that the the

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Sabbath First of all, the Sabbath and in Hebrews becomes the Sabbath rest This becomes something that is is a picture of one's entrance into Christ.

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It's not a specific day There are others who would argue that the Sabbath itself is specifically changed to the

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Lord's Day There's just all sorts of arguments on all sides on that particular issue but there would be those who would identify that as In essence a marker of the of the people of God that continues

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There would be those who would see that continuing in a very literalistic sense There would be those who would see it continuing in a spiritual sense in having entered into rest and in Christ so on so forth but that becomes really the central part of the argument in regards, especially to New Covenant theology

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And one of the reasons that they they don't You know take some of the views they do is because of that It's that that's a huge huge area of discussion their entire books written about that.

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So it is discussed It's just not discussed much in the modern American Evangelical Church, but it certainly is discussed in certain quarters

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Where it's not just simply dismissed or lightly taken as being something that's irrelevant, but at the same time

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Obviously, there's some interesting uses of the term in the book of Hebrews that don't fit into just a mechanic mechanical transfer of one day to another day, so But clearly the rest of the commandments

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Clearly come out in in the vice lists and things like that and even more so they become expanded

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And if you look at the things that the New Testament says these things will exclude you from the kingdom of God Those things become expanded those the commandments become expanded in the

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New Testament just as Jesus is not contradicting the old law in in the

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Sermon on the Mount where he's saying it's been said to you But I say to you as if somehow this wasn't enough.

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I'm taking you to another level He goes he goes into the very heartfelt Attitude that one must have you know do not commit adultery

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I say to you anyone who looks at a woman the lust after has committed adultery in his heart That's not like the Jews before going.

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Yeah. Well. I didn't break that one because this is a new law. No this was obviously What was being alluded to in the

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Old Testament law when it talked about obedience from the heart so on and so forth so? Big big big big area.

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It's not no no simpler answers there, and I would honestly say that The desire for simple answers may in and of itself be a bad thing because I I think the the desire for simplicity in the sense of I want a black -and -white easy list

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Rather than something that really caused me to work through these things is probably not a not a good thing to for evangelicalism to be involved with All right

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Thank you, all right, thanks, yes, sir I've got another call

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So I am gonna be in New Jersey in June though, so maybe maybe I lost him

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Jonathan I'll be in New Jersey in June, so if you I'm watching someone checking out my motorcycle here

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Yeah getting down looking looking at over there, yeah, mm -hmm, I've got video of you there, son

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I Can't do much about it, but rich can if anybody starts playing with anything, so I think it's just just looking in it

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Look don't touch. That's exactly right. What's that's that's what you do anyways, let's talk with Lawrence hi

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Lawrence Yes, yes, sir. Yeah James. I I wonder how effective in fact it would be to To use the scriptures as you suggest with those witnesses

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Especially with a more advanced one if I make reference to your two Examples of Hebrews 1 and Revelation, you know, some may argue

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Well, you know in in these two agent the people worship, you know God and the

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King or I wonder if perhaps as with Muslims And I'd like to have your thoughts on that.

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It's actually Reflecting on a God that would be alone You know for a long time and then creating things or people and therefore being unable to be truly loved because he's not

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You know always with Someone to love in this case this God and spirit if that argument from philosophy from the nature of God as being love isn't more

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Powerful because it's less easy to bring these, you know counter arguments. What is your thought?

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Well well, I understand the philosophical argument

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Regarding the nature of love and the necessity of an object the lover and the loved and so on so forth but I Firmly believe that God honors the proclamation of his word and that there is something special about That which is the honest us that which is

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God breathed and there is no argument That the mind of man cannot come up with a counter argument to it'll be the inconsistency of those arguments that eventually

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Demonstrates the truthfulness of one particular position over another and so for example, if someone says well

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Yeah, but you know, you can find other uses of prosecuting. Oh, well, it's obvious that Prosecuting Oh when used in a religious context is reserved to God And if there is in fact one of the questions

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I asked of Mr. Stafford in that same section was if How if this is not worship if the the greatest creatures in God's creation

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Bowing down and saying glory and honor and power and blessing be to you if that's not worship

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How could you ever identify? Idolatry Give me a way of identifying what idolatry is the same question that I ask of Roman Catholics when they're bowing before a statue of Mary and rocking back and forth and and Committing into her hands my soul and save me and bring me grace and so on so forth exactly, what would idolatry look like look like if that isn't give me give me some way of of Seeing this and and I don't get responses.

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There's no there's there's no argument That you can make that is going to absolutely shut someone's mouth if the

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Spirit of God is not working in that person's heart to bring about a believing repentance

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So, you know, it's the same thing when you're when you're talking with atheists or anybody else They're the human mind has an incredible capacity to pervert truth and to engage in self -deception and in fact

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I was thinking about the fact that they're the people come to me all the time and in regards to Revelation 5

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They'd like to say well, you know, I had this person say this What does the Greeks say the Greek must shut him down and you know, sometimes it does

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I mean some I remember I was thinking this morning about a situation in a debate with a Mormon many years ago where the

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Greek actually did completely shut down his argument he did there was no possible way in light of The the text itself the form the language that his position could be right so once in a while, yes, that's true but the fact the matter is that The desire to have that shut down argument doesn't seem to really understand the nature of The Christian Revelation and the way that that truth comes comes to us

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In other words, I believe that the the ultimate demonstration of the truth of God is the consistency of one's position across the spectrum of Revelation across time it is it is not just some kind of Microwave type give me one thing right now type of situation and if people are looking for that kind of demonstration

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They're gonna find Not only the great writers of the past but of the present as well to be disappointing because they all point us to the same fact that that God's truth the vindication of God's truth is seen in the entirety of his revelation and in the

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Consistency with which a person handles it Not in any one particular text where you know, you come up with the zinger argument

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Looking for that everywhere will eventually lead you I think in the wrong direction and Will lead people who want to be the whiz -bang pop apologist somewhat disappointed because If you if you really insist on finding it that way you can come up with stuff, but it won't always be consistent

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You got to be very very careful I I have many times in a debate had to specifically choose

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To use the more difficult argument because it was the most consistent argument

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There's a temptation there's a temptation debate. It's something I have to deal with all the time to go for the crowd pleasing zinger rather than really dealing with the issue at hand and Unfortunately, we do live in a day where people are much more excited about the crowd -pleasing zinger than they are about the meaningful response

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I simply point you to the last political election in the United States as clear evidence of that and So no,

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I I do understand those philosophical arguments, but in my experience faith comes by hearing and hearing by the

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Word of God and From my perspective if someone could come along with a philosophical argument to argue into a position

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Believe me lots of folks will come along with a philosophical argument to argue out of it It is conviction that what you believe is actually what has found the

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Word of God. That is by far the most important thing Hey Lawrence, we're out of time. Thank you very much for your phone call today and for everyone who has

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Listened in today. We've talked about a lot of things the one thing I didn't get to But I still want to get to it because I sort of left this hanging

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I and I do this I apologize But I wanted to get back to a couple of the statements of Efflegard Smith in his book troubling questions for Calvinists and all the rest of us

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I Did learn I mentioned last program that? It was a little bit troubling to read his denial of original sin on page 67

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He comes from a Church of Christ backgrounds. That makes sense. I have since learned that he is now an annihilationist as well

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So there are a lot of problems there He was teaching at Liberty, but he was teaching law at Liberty wasn't teaching the theology area.

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So that would explain some of that but I listened again to his closing statement in the discussion on Calvinism on iron sharpens iron from Over a year ago, and it was so strong in the sense of so condemnatory identifying

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Calvinism as a heresy of false teaching It makes the Word of God a sham and and so on so where the use is very strong language and so I I think that dealing with with the the argumentation he presents might be useful to folks and who knows maybe a

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Discussion between he and myself will will develop in the not -too -distant future. Of course with everything else going on including the

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Still working on working out all the details at the end of April beginning of May as far as that trip goes

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Please pray for that because there are Some issues with some of the locations and having trouble getting hold of folks

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It takes a lot of work to get debates set up folks. It really really does so pray that Hopefully the three debates we're trying to do two debates in Islam and one debate on Atheism will be able to develop at the end of April first weekend in May back in the

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Midwest and Hopefully we'll be able to have final final final final information on that very very soon

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So thanks for listening to my line today. We'll be back with you Lord willing on Thursday. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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That's a o m i n dot o r g Or you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again this