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Former member of McLean Bible Church who made a documentary film about David Platt's takeover of the church answer questions about their story. #DavidPlatt #McLeanBibleChurch For more go to https://therealdavidplatt.com and https://www.churchreforminitiative.org
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Hey everyone, we're live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris still with this lingering cold
So thank you for your prayers. It's getting better slowly day by day But I feel like I get hit by one of these every fall
So, please bear with me, but I I have two guests who have not been on the podcast before Jeremiah and Laura Burke and Thanks guys for coming on.
I really appreciate it Good to see you And Jeremiah and Laura for many of you who are watching you probably recognize them from the
David Platt documentary the real David Platt comm if you want to see parts 1 & 2 and we're just going to talk today about their story what led them to participate in this and really do a lot of the legwork and Groundwork that it took to make this documentary
So, I appreciate you both joining me and I'm looking forward to getting into all the details of this and if people have questions as we're going through this then please put them in the info or rather the chat section on X Facebook or YouTube those are the three places that I can see them.
And if I can see them then I can Relay them to the Berks. Let's get started
With a clip from David Platt David Platt this last Sunday got up in front of the congregation that McLean Bible Church and this is part of what he had to say
Sympathy chapter 2 verse 7 for this. I was appointed a preacher and an apostle. I am telling the truth
I am not lying a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth I gotta read these verses and I think about how times in recent years when
Falsehoods have spread in and about our church that are so destructive as we mimic a larger culture where falsehoods spread about people like Wildfire apparently, this is not a new thing and Jesus says here's a better way
Do all you can to be trustworthy even the smallest most Insignificant seemingly insignificant things you say speak truth about your life
Speak truth about others lives about brothers and sisters in Christ in the church do not
Slander a brother or sister in Christ go to them if you ever have questions about anything in the church, please by all means go to one of our pastors and in this culture do
Not join in this world of being so quick to believe and spread anything you hear about other people or things
Your words matter in a world where truth is hard to find do all you can to make your every word trustworthy
All right. Well, that was last Sunday from David Platt at the stage there at McLean Bible Church and more than one person assumed that he was referring to the documentary that you both were so involved in making that was published last week
And so I want to ask you first of all for your reaction to that are you surprised that David Platt went up there and essentially insinuated that there are people yourselves being some of those people who are lying about the church who put out false information and he put himself in the
In the position of being the honest one in this case Yeah, but it's um at this point sadly, it's not surprising to see the gaslighting from the pulpit, but he's just textbook in that He and his leadership
They've they've made it a habit now of basically when accusations come against them
They will actually deny them they'll actually attack whoever presented the allegations and they actually reverse the roles of Those who are bringing the accusations they'll reverse it so that they are now the victim and we are the offenders and it's
It's interesting to watch and it's helpful when there's clarity around it. Darvo is the is the classic you know
Acronym that describes this very Simple behavior that perpetrators tend to just use as in their toolkit well it it just I think it's surprising for some people to see a man who is
A pastor who has been in the Southern Baptist world for years Publishing he's been at the highest level.
He was president of the IMB to have him come out and just blatantly lie Like that that's hard for some people to swallow because I think even after 2020 and seeing so much compromise there's still a lot of people who just trust their leaders and And I understand that and they just can't it doesn't make sense in their head that someone
Would just get up there and blatantly lie, but it sounds like that's what you're saying David Platt did
I mean he just got up there and Acted like you were all lying about him
And he's the one in the position of telling the truth when the roles are actually quite the reverse of that yeah, it's it would be helpful if we could actually address the accusations at hand instead of just Attacking the people bringing them and presenting them.
Just let's focus on the subject in the content instead of how Maybe we're delivering it.
Someone might prefer it differently, but most Strategies have been exhausted to this point founding members
Elders in the church past elders many people with much more relational capital with these leaders than Jaron.
I have come forward They've gone one -on -one. They've gone in groups. We've presented it to the church so it's just Sad that we're at this point where you know
David and his leadership refused to address the actual accusations Well, I think it's important to start here just because I have seen comments and I've heard some people say things like Where was
David Platt and all this how come his side wasn't represented your side and it's not just you
It's a whole bunch of people who are in this documentary, but that side of things has been represented but David Platt You know his side isn't and is this just a hit job?
Are these people have they tried to actually go through proper channels? And I I know the answers to these things, but I want people to hear from you
Has David Platt been contacted has there been have there been attempts to actually rectify the situation or these situations with?
the pastor of McLean Yes, we've I mean sent countless emails over the years and we've been invited them to To kind of comment or or come on camera for the documentary if they they wanted to but I have seen some of those similar
Comments, you know, we have to hear David's side of the story But I think the documentary was actually
David's side of the story. Those were David's emails. Those were David's comments from the stage
So if there's another side of the story would be ours, but we're in complete agreement with what was in the documentary Which was actually David's documentary
David in a way helped produce that it was all his own content So there is really no other side of the story, which is why
David won't comment people are asking you look online You know David come out and and address this but he won't because there's nothing to address that's
That's the story. There's only one we have no other story other than kind of what was presented
And I was struck by that how many videos? Emails depositions that you acquired in discovery.
All of these things are primary source You can watch them and you can make determinations based off of them
Obviously primary sources it can be Used and arranged to try to make someone look bad and so forth
But in the process of making this documentary and and with what was presented, this was very thorough this was very
I would say comprehensive and And and this would be so simple for someone like David Platt if he wanted to to refute he could
Write something he could do a met he could say something. There's a lot of ways He has more channels available to him than you guys have by far
He's got he's a huge platform and I thought it was interesting I saw in religion news service, which is generally
I would consider them more left -wing and so forth And more on Platt side of things and in fact the reporter there kind of admitted that That he has been friendly with plaid and and it's promoted
Platt stuff. They Put out an article recently. I think it was two or three days ago essentially saying that David Platt's organization is
PR firm. I don't you guys have a PR firm. I don't think so right Yeah, well because no no one else is talking to you no one else is putting you on I mean it's left to people like myself
To give you somewhat of a platform here, but David's PR firm Contacts religion news service not saying anything about the documentary and it kind of ticked off this writer
Because he was just like hey You didn't even tell me anything about this I didn't it was strange that you reached out all of a sudden wanting to make
David Platt look good publicly and now I understand why because all of this stuff is going to be released and it was and There there was speculation about whether David Platt was in You know across the other side of the world just before this dropped and putting all kinds of things on social media to try to Do some some some management of his image and that kind of thing
So here's the question though. That's all what I'm seeing and what other people are seeing in the public, but the question is
Is this going to continue? Do you think that David Platt is going to ever try to bring a substantive response to what you've done or or is this it?
I mean, is it really just you know, you put out this documentary and They're not going to respond to it.
They're not going to engage with you and they're not going to let the public know Or verify confirm deny any of what's what's happened in the eye of the public
Sure, so and maybe just one correction. I'm not sure if it was RNS or if it was Baptist News Global Oh, I'm sorry.
Did I say RNS? Yeah, I meant Yes That I think that was the
Writer, you're absolutely correct Okay, and and maybe for everybody else's knowledge and I don't have a hundred percent
Clarification or confirmation on this but yeah they did hire a PR firm and we don't know who it is, but my my belief is that it would be
Pinkston their local firm, but They are used there's actually a podcast that Clint Clifton did who was part of NAMM and he had
Christian Pinkston on there and it's basically how to deal with crisis and image control So my guess is that it's
Pinkston out of Annandale, Virginia, which is very close to David again I don't have any proof of that.
But that's if I was a betting man That's my guess is who it is. A lot of NBC employees have transitioned from McLean staff to you know that yeah, but I Don't see them coming out with any
I Don't see David coming out or the church coming out with any response What they are doing if you look there seems to be a common thread if you just look on social media a lot of trolls let's just call them trolls not to disparage anybody, but They're saying kind of the same thing and it's it's either they're disgruntled members, which no one's really disgruntled
I mean, we've made more really really long -term Faithful friends out of this whole process
Then we had before it started so we're kind of grateful for the opportunity to have met so many wonderful people but What's happening online?
I guess is is you seeing this this the same comments? it's just don't watch it and then when people criticize that and say well, why not watch it and They say well, you'd be a fool if you believed it then you can watch it, but you're a fool if you believe it
So I think that's pretty much the content That would be What they have to go on it's either just don't watch it or don't believe it or don't even mention at all which has kind Of been the mo for the last couple of years
Just pretend like nothing's there and this has come up in the congregation Multiple times and you just kind of dismiss it and hope it goes away
That's I don't see them addressing it in Sunday from the pulpit just before the clip that you started at David is saying you have the choice on social media to either click and affirm the lies
Yeah, and pass on the lies or not to click so you can see, you know, whether it's
David and his backing at the SBC his PR firm other people who are losing money based on his
Reputation going down the drain or just being exposed for who he is They have interest to to help him get through this
But the argument just don't watch it Isn't really strong to everyone who is concerned for the truth.
It makes you wonder about PR firms I remember when Jerry Falwell jr. Gotten in deep trouble he had a
PR firm to and the advice it's just like I wonder whether or not it's wise to take any of that advice because hundreds of thousands of people at this point have watched your documentary and it's out in so many different forms and You've allowed it to you haven't copyrighted it you've allowed it to be spread on YouTube and on X and on all kinds of social media platforms by anyone who wants to just spread and get the word out there and And I think it would be prudent at this point probably to just start from the beginning for people to know your motives who you are what made you decide to do this because It wasn't just you how many people were involved how many people were actually in the documentary?
I didn't count when I was watching it Yeah, probably roughly 20 somewhere in that range
You see 20 people that decided to take time out of their lives
And I don't know about you but even in what I do on social media I I think my wife would say you need that like you need a tooth pulled like that's not something that you just engage in And not only that you guys went to court you were in court for how long?
Regarding some of these issues So our our specific case that we were in lasted about a year and there's another one that was filed in July of 2021
That's still in the court system. So that's three years old and that's still moving through. Okay, so and you're both
You're not on staff at McLean. You you're normal people with normal lives You make money to feed your children and to live like the rest of us do
What made you decide to do this? Those you can get maybe you're you're right.
Yeah Um, we just started to see our church
Falling apart in a sense it was not even So falling apart. It's not even an appropriate word.
It was being dismantled systematically dismantled and when members tried to just Execute their rights and Do what we have committed we were committed to this church.
We still are committed to this church as members and We just started seeing red flag after red flag and It forced us to kind of all right, let's research some stuff.
Let's try to find answers let's talk to as many people in the congregation as we can and everyone just started sharing stories of I Took this concern to the church.
I did this this happened. We went to this and They just keep reporting all of their
Stories and and testimonies of what the leadership was doing and we just felt as like Members, you can't just walk away
You can't just you know, leave it up to Yeah, I don't even know
I mean if you go back in time So what it was when when David came in it was very odd how the whole thing happened it was it was kind of like a cloud over the church for that one one and a half year period and No one really knew what was going on It's kind of like It was probably a demonic presence over the church.
It really was and Then David all of a sudden gets installed as the pastor and the elders to this day will even admit they didn't follow the process
There's actually a process laid out in the Constitution We have to bring forward multiple candidates in the church evaluates them and they make their choice
That was not given it was just David Dave was put up David was was picked and started into the church and then lawns gone basically
After that happened some people left because they didn't like the the church was basically violating this Constitution so you had a wave of people kind of leave at the start and then some other waves when people started to see some stuff in the sermons and then in 2019 when when
Trump came to the church and He had to apologize and I'm telling you that's that was probably David's the worst day of his life having to To pray for the man that he hates so vehemently
He cannot stand Donald Trump and he had to pray for him and then he had to send an apology letter I think it was the next day and I think that caused another wave of people to leave they were pretty frustrated
That he left but I think that's when people started to realize Oh David's actually not this Kind of typical
Southern Baptist conservative He's actually a far -left liberal a radical liberal and in his stances and then that started to come out and especially in 2020 and then you started to see more people kind of leave and then a lot of his sermons became very social justice and CRT oriented which caused some more people to leave and at that point you were
I mean the numbers dropped from 13 and a half thousand To a late 2020 you were probably down to around 6 ,000 maybe 5 ,000 something in those ranks
It's like why are all these people leaving How many people at the height under Lon Solomon how many people were there
I should say just before David Platt got there and then how many people are there I Guess now if you know or at least, you know by the time you were leaving
Sure, there was there was 13 and a half thousand That was when the lawn transition out and David came in and even for the first, you know a couple of months or maybe a year there was probably around 13 ,000 still
But then it just started to decline and decline and decline it got it got pretty bad Yeah, the budget was somewhere in the 33 to 36 million dollar range maybe 32 to 36 million and that's down to probably a low 20s if that at this point, but attendance is now down to It's a six and a half maybe that's insane that is such a failure story if if if what they're trying to do which
I know from the SPC world is Make these churches bigger add campuses plant other churches
David Platt supposed to be a success story. I mean he's been promoted for years in Not even just the
SPC circles, but outside of those circles as the wave of the future I think I was reading that it was
Herschel York was saying a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary when David Platt Was becoming the head of the
IMB that this was he painted it in such bright colors This was the wave of the future.
This was such an exciting thing I remember feeling that in the SPC people thought he was going to fix everything to hear what you're saying is
I Think it would have surprised a lot of people And you didn't I don't know if that was actually covered in the documentary the drop in attendance and the drop in the budget
Maybe it wasn't I just missed it. Yeah, we didn't know we didn't mention it There's there's so much stuff that was not able to be covered
That was just kind of the tip of the iceberg, but there's a there's a lot more if there was time and energy
We could probably Yeah, this is part three right here And one of the things
David did do as soon as he came in was he changed our actual mission statement of the church? It went from what was our original mission statement under basically making an evangelical
In fact on Washington DC and if you can change DC you can change the world and David. Yeah Let's make disciples and plant churches or something along those making disciples and multiplying churches among the nation which aligns exactly with NAM's mission statement and so when we saw everything happening in the congregation all of us members start
Filling each other in and being honest with each other. We started the purpose of let's restore this church back to its original
Vision and purpose for which it was founded upon and that's what our hope is we we the purpose of this film was made for Our church our local church people from NBC who were there
For since its founding, you know, the the lay pastors the ministry leaders
The congregants this is for them to help us just continue to restore this church
Yeah What was the moment? I know you've told me this but what was the moment that you thought that's that's it
I have to do this now because I know you were seeing some of this stuff happen and And we didn't even mention the fact that not only were the finances greater and the numbers greater but you also had a
Political influence in a sense because you had a lot that was the place to go right for a lot of Republican Senators and the staffers and that kind of thing and now
I mean their influence is so diminished You see your church deteriorating in all these different ways
When did you say? Okay, we're gonna do it. We're gonna go after this
Sure, I think I think the the catalyst behind it was actually the Naples documentary that we saw because everything leading up to this
The church was just getting Systematically destroyed and everybody was just leaving but it was during kovat and they'd shut the church down So no one could actually communicate people just left and you would see them in another church.
I'm like, oh, what are you doing here? Oh, I left so by the time the church kind of Reopened there really wasn't anybody left
They cut the services I think from three or four services down to two services and those weren't even getting filled But what we had noticed in that period of time was the
Theology was also off We didn't really know much about the the SPC relationship at that point because they'd obviously said from the pulpit
We're not part of the SPC, you know Here's here's what we do with them, but no one had ever seen the financials and like you said from the lawsuit
That's when we actually found out it was Substantially more money that they were moving to the Southern Baptist Convention than any of us had any idea of but a lot of what he was doing was
Taking this Well, I guess from a theological perspective if he was he was having the church take this class and he created called the gospel the church justice and race and he was
Asking anybody who participated in it to give their ethnicity and their political affiliation
So before you could take the class, I think it was each week you had to actually fill out this form with with this information and then he would take feedback during the
The actual class which was all virtual but then he would take out pretty much all the comments that were from anybody who probably said they're white or Conservative because he said oh, we've taken all the feedback.
It's great We're incorporating it but they were just kind of tossing all that and The content was bad to begin with because all of the responses were basically this is a horrible
Piece of work that you put together David. You should trash the whole thing. This should never go out And so he would be from the elders.
Yes, this is the elders are saying this to not just the congregation So that was one of the the catalyst Well, this is kind of weird if he's gonna be pushing this to not only the congregation but try to push it out through all the churches that he's planted because it's it's definitely a gospel that's
It's deviant for sure. It's just not totally corrupted gospel so that was one of the things that kind of set people on edge, but then later in the year when the church finally reopened you see
Stonewalling of members when they're asking questions about the finances or David stances on things So that's what we started to look in To whether they actually were affiliated with the
SPC because it had been something they had denied for years So we just started to research and research and look at documents that were available from the state convention and then some emails to the
SPC itself and that's kind of how it all started and we figured let's let's do what we can to restore the church and the only way to do that is to actually get rid of David because he's the the
Puppet master of everything that's happening here. So That's kind of what led to the whole
March 31st medium where we asked for David's removal was just a series of him years of him just destroying the church, but it was it was bits and pieces because he couldn't do it all at once there were some elders that were
Like the gentleman who came on camera who had No, not
Kevin. It was a Craig who came on camera who had morals and you know wanted to run things how they should have been run, but David really probably couldn't get anything done and Right in the way he wanted to until Craig was out and that was
I think late 20 or early 2021 and that's when you see the installation of all of these yes men and corrupt individuals that David actually wanted to put in place the whole time and the the the motivation was how crucial each generation is to know the gospel and For the church to to stand firm on the truth and reality of the scriptures and it was like we're seeing this
You have to stand up and fight for truth For you know, yeah, that was probably overarching right the gospel could be lost in any generation and luckily to this point it hasn't but David has a lot of influence and he can he can push out a
False doctrine and you have a young generation, but what we've seen even older generations are accepting this
So just a lack of clarity a lack of probably biblical knowledge to understand What's what he's actually saying?
But we obviously didn't want this this deviant gospel to go out to a younger generation and be totally confused as to what the real gospel actually is it's a noble effort and a noble motivation and I think people need to hear that especially people who are defensive of flat from the church perhaps or You know, there's a lot of people who love flat in all kinds of arenas who want to think that you're a bunch of meanies you just Which is kind of an insane story in my mind
But like you woke up one day and decided to spend your own money and your own time and lots of it
To tell the story about this guy Because you just wanted to rip him down because because of why you're not jostling with him for any kind of position you there you have no
Reason to compete with him on any level It's just that and this is the explanation that actually makes sense of it.
You care that the facts actually get out there And even in the case that you were part of what did he call it a non suit?
I think you didn't actually get any Rectification compensation it was just hey, can we use these depositions and these emails that have been
Found in discovery to let people know that this guy is dangerous I Commend you very strongly for this.
I was talking to my wife just the other day and I was Thinking about this you mentioned the
Naples thing So I just got to say this for the listeners in this audience who support what I do and stuff I remember where I was
I was attending Liberty University at the time and I remember I got a phone call from Someone who was in your shoes, but not at McLean but at a different church first Baptist Naples and I remember the whole conversation.
I remember that, you know, it's like one of those memories where everything's vivid and I had never done a documentary anything like that But we hung up the phone and I just said
I've got to figure out how to get cameras down there we need to get this story because I had just seen the
SBC and that when was that 20 19 I think the SBC big wigs had all come out to say that there is this racist problem at FBC Naples and and Their side wasn't being told and so I called my friend
Judd Saul. We went down there. He brought cameras Kerry Gordon conducted the interviews
I was doing the intake and I remember sitting there With the people who are about to go on camera and getting their story helping them articulate it and Just the tears streaming down their faces many of them
But so many who had been there for years same thing with this same thing with this and if that had not happened
You know that one phone call We not only would we not have the Naples documentary, but you know, it's just I don't know
It boggles my mind how God works. There probably wouldn't be the McLean documentary either Because that was one of the things you saw that inspired you that look this is not just at our church this is happening other places and and it is and there's so many places that it's happened and people don't have the resources to tell their side, but you did and And good on you for doing that.
I know this wasn't a cheap ordeal for you and and you decided to go ahead with it so So my next question is this
Because I have gotten this question more than anything else and I had I went to people on patreon and I said
I'll get to your questions first. And this is the first question I got Where's Lon Solomon in all this?
Where's? You're in and I I was thinking of the Naples thing and they had a pastor Hayes wicker and it was like a similar thing
Where I think he had signed an NBA or something and he couldn't like he felt bad He hated what was happening, but his hands were tied
Is that what happened with Salon Solomon, why wasn't he able to come back and Say hey enough.
This is bad. This is you know, I've shepherded this flock for so many years get out Well, we just yeah, we actually just got a statement from Lon Lon himself people have been writing into Lon Solomon ministries asking where are you on and basically, the quote is to the extent where Like you saw in the film
I was out of any control of McLean Bible Church early 2017 so in 2016 we hear him from the pulpit saying
I love this church. I'm not going anywhere to then fast -forward 2017 and he's teaching from the stage every other
Sunday, but he you know admits there's no Actual authority that he has and he can't comment on the documentary because of his separation agreement
Yeah, actually I found it here So I think his statement is as you notice in part two of the video series I was removed by the elders from all operational involvement at NBC in early 2017 as part of my separation agreement
Thus I had no part in decisions made after that time as part of my separation agreement I am
NOT at liberty to comment on events at McLean Bible Church or David Platt Sorry that sorry that I cannot be of more help
So that's as long as I think public statement that he's put out because he's he's been good I think he's been getting I mean we haven't talked to Lon But we do know some people that do know
Lon and I think that's his public statement everybody reaching out to him Well, that's interesting because it also signals his approval of the documentary or at least he's saying it's accurate
He's saying that part two. It's accurate what it as so far as it I guess concerned him
Was he So the documentary talks about this some but I think people want more clarification was he forced out?
Did he leave of his own accord? Was what exactly happened that he left so quickly and David Platt was installed so quickly
Sure, so I think from what I've gathered and there's different stories from from different sources and we haven't heard it from from Lon obviously because we haven't spoken to him, but It seems like the idea was to bring
David in and there would be a period where they would do joint Pastoring this is my understanding because David was still running
IMB so you can kind of be a full -time pastor at the same time as running International Mission Board so I believe the idea was that Lon would
Still be in the pulpit at least part -time and David would be in part -time and maybe it would be a mentorship or something along Those lines, but as soon as Lon signed it like he said it
I think it was February of 17 They basically ousted him so he could still come to the pulpit for a time being until David got there
But then after David was there, I think within a few months Lon was gone from the church never came back yeah, he did come back one time to speak at a funeral and I think you could tell the relationship between him and David because after he spoke and he sat down and then
David spoke and then before David finished on got up and walked off the stage and left and he didn't stick around for the funeral and it
Was one of the ladies who actually founded the church Betty right? It was her funeral and Lon didn't even stay around to talk with David or anybody
He was also invited to my knowledge to the installation of Mike Kelsey Who's the kind of new quasi lead pastor to a degree?
He was invited to that and declined to attend that as well. I think that was last year if I'm not mistaken
But yeah, he hasn't come back to the church hasn't communicated with anybody to our knowledge most separation agreements or NDAs That I've at least seen you're allowed to praise the institution you can support the institution but usually it's like Beware, don't say anything that could reflect negatively on me
Yeah, I think Lon's silence is speaking enough Because he could come to the church's defense if he wanted to come to David's defense, but his silence
I think is Showing what's true and what's not? There's a question here that I think goes along with this from Magnus how many elders were there during this time and maybe what's behind that is hey, were they all on board with let's bring in David Platt and The SBC affiliation that eventually came and everything else, you know
Okay, like because I think this is what people have a hard time with is how so you take out Lon Solomon He's gone from the equation
Aren't isn't there still a board there that has been with Lon and wouldn't let this kind of thing happen
Yeah, that's right Can everyone still hear me?
I'm gonna remove. All right. Can everyone still hear me?
I think we just had a problem with Jeremiah and Laura. I'm hoping it's not just on my end Am I the one that is also frozen?
I hope not. All right. It looks like people are saying they can at least hear me They froze. Okay. All right, so they're gonna probably rejoin and we'll get the answer to that question
I was waiting with bated breath there in the meantime I will just direct everyone if you want to see this documentary then there is a place you can go you can go to the real
David Platt dot -com and Check it out. It is
There's a picture of it right here. There's a part one and there's a part two to the documentary many of you have seen both already, but if you haven't
I would recommend going there and And checking it out. I guess got a text from Laura Burke saying that their power went out for a few seconds
So they're gonna log back in some other things that I was gonna bring up that I haven't yet is the church reform initiative and I'm gonna ask
Laura and Jeremiah about this because they the church reform initiative looks like this is an organization of which
I'm not that familiar, but they are Behind this documentary and I'm assuming with the funding it and that kind of thing
But I I happen to know that these are individuals. These are ex -McLean Bible Church members who have dug into their pockets and said we're gonna finance this and I think this is also
Something that they've come up with because they realize this is a problem in other churches as well so I'm gonna ask them about that and And then
I'm gonna also ask them about this. This is Something that will McCraney if you don't know who will
McCraney is he has been in legal battles with the SPC with the North North American Mission Board for a long time and he posted something the other day that I thought was interesting and It shows that there's a church planter grid that the sin
Network which is from the North American Mission Board puts out and I was aware of this during the filming of This documentary about David Platt in McLean Bible Church and Essentially, there are different tiers that you can meet and I don't know why
I think because I'm not logged into Facebook Let me see if I can just show you the image here and Let's see.
Will it work? No, it's not it's not working. All right. Well, I will try to figure this out but So you can see the whole thing
It's cut off at the bottom, but there are these different tiers that if you give to the North American Mission Board that you can
You can basically gain benefits from them and Some of the emails from David Platt seemed to suggest that that's maybe what he was doing.
He was trying to Make sure that McLean Bible Church, which was not supposed to be affiliated with any denomination gave a certain amount to the
SPC Because he wanted them to be in the top tier. He wanted them to be ranked in a certain way
That's clear from his emails. I think as far back as 2017. So what is this about? Well, it seems there might be some kind of a pay -to -play type thing going on in the
SPC So I'm gonna ask Laura and Jeremiah about that and they are back. So Sorry about that.
What happened? So your power went? Yeah power went out and it came back on. So sorry cut the internet connection
Okay, we're not on like, you know rolling power outages like in some of these third world countries I hope in Okay, all right, so I don't even remember what were you saying it was important to the elders you're talking about the elders
The elders how did this happen? Yeah. Yeah, one of the issues I think was just the sheer number of elders.
It was six elders seven including the pastor Sure for a congregation of 13 ,000 which was crazy to begin with And Larry who was the the chairman?
No one really knows why he allowed it to happen But he he had some influence and persuasiveness just his demeanor to kind of get everybody to fold and cave and you know the elder
Think we're losing you again, but maybe pushing it Ah It's just what happened you hear us now, okay.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I can hear you now. I'm wondering yeah, if it gets too laggy what we can do is
Turn off the video and then just use the audio, but I'm seeing you now. So let's keep going. Okay Okay.
Okay. Okay. So yeah, that was it on the other. Yeah Yeah, yeah, that was it
It was just questions to two few elders and there was I think some shenanigans going on But that's yet to fully be uncovered with something.
We're exploring as to how it actually all happened behind the scenes Okay. Now there was a gentleman.
I know in the documentary you talked about this who was like the SBC guy Which and that was interesting like he before Lon Solomon left they had a guy who was favorable to be
SBC I'll let you describe what that is But I think people at other SBC churches now are on the lookout for this kind of thing if they're in a megachurch, especially
What's the link? What's the connection? It wasn't David Platt initially, right? Right, that's that's probably the biggest
Mystery, but I think we're slowly uncovering that mystery. So Lon had it was the perfect storm had appointed
This guy Dale Sutherland to kind of take over executive pastoral roles at the church Almost immediately
With him coming in to control the church he had aligned us with the SBC or at least created a relationship with with this guy
Clint Clifton from NAMM and I Think that may have come from Mark Devere I think that that contact may have come from Mark Devere because David was very close with Mark I think
Dale Sutherland was was pretty close with Mark Devere the guy who David Platt Brought in who's mentioned in the documentary
Dave Young was also very close with Mark Devere So I think there's a link we didn't bring this up in the documentary but I think
Mark Devere was a was a strong link to how this all happened and then from there it was
Dale Sutherland working behind the scenes with Clint Clifton Kevin Azzell and probably others again.
Yeah, Paul Aiken was was involved for the emails that we've seen But that's that's kind of how it happened
And why Dale would do this Again that's still a little bit of a mystery, but it it does appear that there
Was some type of monetary payoff to some extent and That's maybe not something we can cover today
But in the future as we're still researching the extent of that payoff and Clint Clifton coming in he
I remember him Just kind of pushing like the the church planting gate We're gonna plant churches.
Every new church is another new door to heaven And but what the congregation was naive to is we didn't know
Our money was being used to plant Southern Baptist churches and only Southern Baptist churches
And some of it wasn't even church planning, right? They were counting Bible studies and some of these
I think someone had said half of them. They couldn't even find On the tax rolls, so it was there was like a cooking of the books almost that's what it sounds like at least
Yeah, so we did pull incorporation documents for a lot of the supposed churches and a lot of them actually were
Churches that were formed under the incorporation laws of Maryland, Virginia or DC But then some we couldn't find some sources that we've spoken to said
With some of this name money or these network Networks that are created Oftentimes it goes to churches that may be planted or basically to the pastor that may be the pastor of a church
But it may never actually take form and that that does kind of align with the discovery documents again
We have no way to prove that other than what we're showing what we're seeing in the actual discovery documents
Which at some point maybe we'll release on the church reform initiative website or anybody can have them These are for the public's consumption.
They're not our documents, but it does a line That this money was possibly going to pastors that never actually started a church
It's odd to me and I've wondered about this too because I've had several people from NAM reach out over the years with you know this is what
NAM is doing and Oftentimes related to social justice. They're only giving money to these guys who promote this message and that kind of thing
But it's it's not stuff you can ever like, you know There's not like a silver bullet that you can prove everything it's it's
Witnesses who come forth and say I was part of NAM and this is what's happening there or whatever But I do happen to know because there's a church that I know of that Is a small church, you know 50 60 people they have three guys there though three pastors
Which they they cannot possibly sustain and and I know that it's NAM money That's going to at least supplement some of this and you know
One has a Bible study, you know over here one has a Bible study over there and I have wondered and I don't have proof
But I've wondered whether or not when Kevin easel gets up there at the Southern Baptist Convention or even when
David Platt gets up there to talk about how Successful McLean is at planning churches whether they're just counting all of these efforts that actually haven't materialized yet and This is a chart.
I think you're aware of this, but I figured I would share it I know this was not part of the documentary and maybe for good reason because Not everything you want to make sure that everything that you say can be a hundred percent proven, but people are looking for explanations
Why did David Platt want? to redirect finances even before he got there to the
NAM to this SBC and And so this is a chart that I don't know if you can't probably even read that It's kind of small print there, but it has these different tiers from the sin
Network That you can get to the X Factor I guess tier where you give a certain amount of money and there's there's perks with this apparently, so I mean do you think that there was something like that going on where they were after some kind of benefit from the
Southern Baptist Convention in Return for partnering with them in a financial way.
Are you free to Yes, the late on that Discovery documents definitely reference tiers of church planters tier 1 tier 2 tier 3.
That's that's in the discovery documents as far as the X Factor There's nothing that specifically says
X Factor But the numbers line up with David's basically desire to become one of the top 10 giving churches maybe in the state convention
Which I think aligns with X Factor churches if you become one of the big givers So I think we connect the dots to say that probably was the goal
But what are the financial benefits to that for David or or McLean or other individuals?
That's unknown Okay, we don't know and nothing was shown to to show any benefit but there was obviously a desire to get to this point of giving but we just don't know what the
Benefit was of the payoff for that Okay, fair enough. You can every shows
David has these goals to be To make every single dollar count towards SBC giving and to be top four top five
Giver of the state convention and why does he have? Yes. Yeah. Why is that such a concern?
It was just a it's odd But I think this is the only thing I know of that explains it and I don't even know fully what kind of benefits you
Receive for being the top four or five, but there's certainly benefits that come with this There's some questions also about radical
I figured I'd ask this because I don't think this was covered in the documentary But curious to know conceptual clarity asks where church members
We're church members aware that offering money was being funneled into radical and if so before The fact and what exactly does this personal parachurch ministry of David Platt called radical do?
So I think I'll open that up to what happened to missions giving What how did radical play a role in now receiving funds?
Were they this is a separate organization were they getting free?
Building space in McLean like what was the relationship between McLean and this new organization radical?
Sure. So radical is interesting the the church Church would mention that they're advancing their relationship with radical, but no one really knew what that meant
There was never a line item in the budget that money was going to radical in discovery I believe it said that what they were doing and you can see this in one
I think it's in the in the deposition video of Bill Steele. I Think it's radical in SPC payments and he says just put them in admin or senior management
But he prefers admin because he doesn't want senior management to get too high Because it obviously raises concerns of no one knew the amount that was going
I think Through 2020 or 2021. It was around 650 ,000 that we're aware of but discovery documents that they cut off in 2021
We don't have any data after that. But what's interesting if you look at the 990s of radical you can find them on the
IRS website the Growth is is generally pretty
Pretty steady, you know 1 .2 million maybe 1 .4 1 .7 up until 2020 Believe or maybe there's 2021 and you see a jump to over five and five million
It's like 5 .1 or 5 .2 million all of a sudden out of nowhere So we have no idea where that money came from.
That's McLean my Bible Church money it could be money from some other organization, but it's quite a jump because you can see a steady trend and then
Boom just jumps up really really high in 2020 or 2021 But what they do?
Not really. Sure. They do have office space in McLean and I think that was one of the reasons that they actually kicked us out of the church because we reported that the church has a
County agreement called a special use exemption for the church and you basically can't run any other entities or organizations out of it
They were running New City Network, which was basically an SBC Yeah church on the arm that they had put in the church as well
That was there and then also radical had space. And so I reported this to the county Yeah, a
Fairfax along with some other kind of violations that they had they were running a few distribution facility out of the church in 2020, which is totally against What they were allowed to be doing and the county
Investigated and shortly thereafter they kind of kicked me out of the church, but They do have space to my knowledge at this point
Kind of like a religious we work is how I worded it to the county They're just basically operating other entities out of this church against the special use exemption
That they've agreed to but they still have space to my knowledge. But what they actually do
I think is still unknown I know he makes videos, but I don't know how that actually Goes to spreading the gospel around the world because I think it's a lot of secret church stuff
It's it's a bit odd If you look I think I was looking last night if you if you look at what was given for mission work in like sub -saharan
Africa in the most recent available 990. I think it was like a $1 ,140 out of there
I'm assuming millions that they get But it's I mean you can take a look at the 990s to see where the money is being distributed
Was a lot of church admissions money rerouted into radical at that point or do you know?
We don't know. I just don't know. We don't know and people it's not like people haven't asked many people have asked
Yeah, even the church elders asking. No, you don't need to know that information
Yeah. Yeah, that's really disturbing to be honest like and you mentioned I know I have a question in here
I'm not sure if I can find it, but essentially Someone asked. Oh here it is How can you be a member of a church when you've been trespassed from it
So I'll just open this up with what you just said and attach the two
You said you were basically kicked out after reporting this to Fairfax County.
I I'm I Well, I think I kind of know what happened but for people out there you lost your membership
Then you want it you were restored your membership if I'm not mistaken and then so right now you're not a member though, right?
So walk me through that. Yeah It's questionable We still attend online.
This is still our home church in our minds and We're committed to rebuilding it.
But yes, like I remember the county official she was saying now just Contact me if the church retaliates after you kind of telling on them for us to investigate this you know religious we work and we kind of looked at each other's like I would be retaliate and then a
Week later we get a letter, you know that is read in the documentary that you are
We've reached out to you multiple times to discuss your actions against the church and you've refused to meet with us your approach to Christ and we're removing you from membership, so Then we showed up at the meeting that night to address the letter that was
Sent to us from an email address that we had never seen before, you know And so you see in the video
Jer go up to David who runs away and then Larry Cooper to ask for unofficial trespass
Sal our buddy had been trespassed. He received a formal trespass notice. So we just wanted the same courtesy
But they they Didn't want to just grant us that in the moment
Yeah, you can be trespassed and still remain a member. So Sal Cordova. He was trespassed
Because he was going into the campuses and counting how many people were in attendance Such a horrible thing to count how many people
Yeah, yeah, but the letter said for observed behavior. So again, yes
So he he was trespassing. He can't go to campuses, but he can vote but he could be a member and vote we're
I Guess informally trespassed to a degree because they never actually Sent a trespass notice, which you actually have to receive and they didn't send one
But they did I guess indicate that were removed from membership But then when we went to court the judge disagreed
So I guess the from the state's perspective they did nothing to remove us but from David Platt's perspective
He did so I guess it's all there There was that part of the documentary where a bunch of people went in and for a vote and they were removed from the rolls
So if you went in for a vote would that's the question I have I guess and maybe you don't know the answer would they?
Say that you're removed or would they let you vote? Or so, you know, yeah, so for us specifically we can't vote at this point
But for all the members that were removed or basically their memberships inactivated in 2021
No one really knows what their status is at this point whether they can vote or not and that's actually what the lawsuit that's still
In play from 2021 is about right the five plaintiffs are asking the court to provide discovery documents
So they can see one who was removed and not allowed to vote and for what reason did you remove them? But David is fighting like crazy to let or to prevent that from actually coming out
They're spending so much money. It's I think between the two lawsuits It's it's north of two million at this point that they've spent just to prevent discovery
It's really all it was that that tells you everything right there. Honestly, that just tells you everything They're willing to spend millions of dollars to prevent
You from knowing basic questions and someone had put in they said it's frustrating
To attend a church where you can were you asked to see the budget leadership says yes and ask you to come in to see
It then they question your heart. Why do you need to see this brother? I mean, it's just like it's weird.
It's it's like if you have nothing to hide I mean, these are the members of your church. These aren't just outsiders coming in. These aren't You know
I would question that if it was someone from the liberal press who is looking for dirt and they come in and they start asking
This is someone who's a member of your church in good standing. You can't tell them. Here's our budget
You should like, you know my church. They're in the back rack. You can just pick one up. It's pretty wild It's pretty wild.
Yeah. Yeah, it is absolutely crazy Since we've been going about almost an hour
Let me get to some of these questions and just hear you guys out and then we'll finish up here
Because I do will still want to ask you about the church reform initiative So, let's see ma says join an excellent
SBC Church But still trying to figure out how not to give any money to any SBC corporate entity We want to give only the local ministries is not the answer to stop the money.
I don't know if you have an opinion on that Yeah Well, I guess if your church's is part of the cooperative program in the state
You're you're gonna be giving to the entities and seminaries NAM IMB I personally would never give to those entities knowing the corruption that's going on inside at least for NAM and Kevin Kevin is
L what he's doing if there's a way for your church to give In a way that that isolates it to a certain program or entity
That might not might not be a bad idea I think send relief though that's a black box for the SBC Don't give money in my opinion to send relief
And probably try to avoid NAM but everything else if there's a way to isolate and you feel called but I would
I would encourage people to kind of follow their conscience there, but Yeah, unless I'm gonna sell is willing to open the books these things.
I probably wouldn't be getting personally here's a this is kind of a Yeah It's a direct question.
We'll put it that way. Do you guys believe Platt is a wolf? It is not his way to help I so I mean, hey, that's a serious question
What's his status if he's this bad? And I think after watching the documentary you are left scratching your head with like how did how's this guy a pastor?
But not just that how is he a Christian? How can he operate this way? One of the things you guys did not talk about as much
But I know there's a bigger story to this is the abuse situation It was kind of tagged in at the end of the second part that situation though To me.
I mean, I know the other stuff is bad But to me, I I just I have a hard time squaring how a
Christian Operates by trying to protect the institution and not being transparent about a predator in your midst
So, I don't know if you can take that any direction you want to take it Is he a wolf Yeah, well,
I just I believe he is and that's just because of Heeding to the warnings in the
New Testament beware wolves will come in and they'll ravage the sheep well, too, you know in the Old Testament, it's woe to the shepherds who scatter the flock and and Here I initially
Expected a wolf to look more like a wolf, but it's it's pretty Wild to witness
Someone who is acting like a sheep with his words Only and then it's not so you're like mauled by him personally that you oh, he does have sharp teeth.
He is, you know different So I don't know what I expected a wolf and sheep clothing to look and act like but based on the fruit destruction of a church
You know, it's insanity It aligns with Satan's goal is to kill steal and destroy specifically, you know the
Bride of Christ Yeah, I'll give my commentary There's a book called day of the wolf by a guy named
Colvin luck It's a really interesting book and you can just pull some of the excerpts out of it and you're like wow that applies that applies
That applies everything kind of applies to David and kind of how he's run things but one of the interesting things is he describes in there a wolf generally surrounds themselves with other wolves and In anything confrontational comes up The other wolves will surround him to protect him and that's kind of what you see over and over and over at McLean anytime
David is confronted or you poke him a little bit Wade Burnett or his other wolves come out of hiding and they come on stage
Or like in in the documentary, you'll see I think it's in part two When there's a little bit of shouting going on David's gone
But this other guy Wade steps in and he's usually the one stepping in but David is always ushered out
Or off the stage and and these guys come in and that's kind of a telltale sign of a wolf
But then you look at just kind of the doctrine that he preaches The the non -stop lying.
There's there's really nothing that I guess if you look at it Has the sign of like a regenerated human being right a soul that's regenerated so I don't see how anybody can kind of look at all of these and we've always had a closer look than other people because We've seen all the discovery documents and the lies and the deceit that's going on and we've obviously been firsthand in the church
This is the his father. Yeah. Yeah, so from the outside, you know people will always probably worship
David But I I think it's pretty obvious at this point, you know where he's aligned himself and what he's after I think a lot of people think your typical wolf is your
Kenneth Copeland or you know, something like that, but Your David Platt is your wolf as well. So it's not just kind of the crazies outside of the mainstream evangelical movement
It's even in your Southern Baptist world for sure and and David is a wolf Karen says thank you for speaking up and pursuing this.
I was a former member but left in 2020 I left heartbroken and and what you said about the numbers
I mean, I know of others who have said the same thing They just left most people don't stay and try to fight and understandably.
So They just they see where it's going and so a little bit of gratitude there
Angel says thanks for this. I left in 2017 after David was voted in as we knew the process was rigged
I don't think you went into that a rig was it rigged I guess I was the vote itself rig.
Do you guys have any information on that? Yeah, it's interesting when you go back to 17 the
The church basically came back with the vote For David's installation within like three or four minutes and this is thousands of people are not thousands
But you're probably a thousand maybe eleven hundred people voting and they have the answer so fast and they said 95 plus percent of the people
Voted but there was a significant amount of people that we know that didn't vote for David and we actually did but you when you look at the numbers and you're like really 95 % cuz
I I think I know quite a few who didn't and if You you just statistically take that out amongst the rest of the congregation
It it doesn't appear. He won by 95 plus percent, but in discovery documents There are and we'll put this out at some point, but there is a basically a push from This consultant who actually is now
Wade Burnett that they brought on as the Coley pastor Who's now the general counsel of the church?
he was basically urging certain things to be said so that you can persuade the Congregation to vote for David because I had to be overwhelming you couldn't just have it wouldn't have looked good
I guess for from a perception standpoint if it was okay, David got 80 % of the vote It had to be overwhelming.
So that's what they were trying to create this perception when he got voted in so It's interesting we don't really have any details and the only really two individuals that would know about that That we may have a chance is
Bill Steele But he is on a separation agreement as well as he can't talk and then Larry Cooper who is the former chairman who also won't
Talk. Okay. Yeah, I don't know if we'll ever get that answer, but definitely some fishy stuff from the very beginning Billy Allred asks,
I'm wondering if there were any outside investigations either by the government or Independent auditors of the church the financial dealings revealed in the depositions were pretty suspect for a 501 c3
So, yeah, not at this point that's up to the state attorney general I think if they want to investigate they'd have to have to see it, but it would be up to them
But yeah, they were moving money was pretty interesting you know receiving money from the congregation and passing it to New City Network, which was the integrated auxiliary and then sending checks from NBC and then reimbursing themselves the whole web was was actually kind of interesting and glad that we got that deposition out of the the operations pastor who explained how they were actually moving the money and Obviously he and David and Wade were the only ones that really knew how they were doing it not even the treasurer but that would be up to I guess an attorney general or a
State prosecutor if they wanted to take that up and it would be up to all we need are the elders to open the books
So simple, right Kingdom bleachers says it's not just a mega church problem either
I highlighted that because I have seen a few people say things like well, this is the problem with mega churches
It just like it's bound to happen in the megachurch model and I Think the documentary kind of disproves that though because you have
Lon Solomon and it seems to be going along fairly well So and it was bigger.
There's more of a megachurch. So, you know, what how come it was going along? Decently under him and then
David Platt comes in and it's a train wreck I don't know if the problem is the megachurch because it was more mega under lawn
That's my response to that. But I don't know if you have you seen that by the way, I've seen that a few times that that Church issue and we've only really been in a megachurch.
I wouldn't really know the other I mean growing up with a smaller church, but we've only really been in a megachurch model if you will but David is is more of an authoritarian and that's the blue document that I think you see in the documentary
It was a PowerPoint which is blue it doesn't look really fancy but that is something that he put together
Which is why you put it there. That's a source document from David and his assistant David Young but The the church was
Under David basically, like I said became very authoritarian It was David's way and nothing else before that the congregation actually had input and we would create the ministries and Or they would create the ministries that we weren't really involved in ministries
But that's that was the benefit you could actually evangelize you go out You could bring people into your ministries and that was a way to kind of impact the culture, but David didn't
You know really want to do that. He had his vision which was church planting and these church groups Which maybe the idea was to turn those into church plants as well.
Who knows that's in the air Okay I want to give a plug for Saul.
He is in the chat He says I'm Sal by the way, who Laura just mentioned evidence and reasons
YouTube channel if you want to check it out And then will McCraney I want to give him a plug. He's actually in the chat right now
I provided insights on my facebook live as To show that how the SPC was involved how it helps nam president
Kevin Eazell and how Platt could have benefited about Almost 7 ,000 views if interested take a look so go to will
McCraney's Facebook page if you want to hear from his perspective how the SPC was involved and will of course was
He's in court right now at the SPC and was involved there for many years There's other questions that are starting to come in but I think we need to start settling it down here
I wanted to ask this question. I know for me at least
The involvement that I had and a few others have had I know 80 Robles has put out some
Videos about the situation there I know capstone report has put out a lot of articles about what you're doing
And I know I came down there with Andrew Andrew, by the way gets a lot of credit here Andrew Joyce and Keno West Media he's put that at the end because he got all these documents and Depositions and interviews and he basically put this together and I know you guys were obviously helping him along the way and telling him what you you wanted and so forth, but He spent a lot of time getting this, right but but I I came down there and I know
I talked to a number of you we I did many of the interviews that ended up making it into the documentary and so forth and Not that I'm a filmmaker, but I gave you some of the advice
I did have with working on enemies within the church and the Naples thing and other stuff and and I and I want everyone else to hear
The answer to this question Did you contact? How broad was the net how broad like were there people contacted who had other platforms bigger platforms?
Even who said no, they weren't interested in a story about David Platt well, you
You were the primary contact. Yeah Yeah, yeah, you know
Organizations if you don't want to but I'm just wondering say Okay, all right, well you take it whatever you got nothing to hide
All right, I'll go I was in contact but she was so I'll just start with the
Roy's report Julie Royce has been notified of this for years and really had no interest in it
And I think people are kind of hounding her as to why she's not doing it But that's I mean, I think you know Leave it up to Julie what she wants to report on and what she doesn't and whether her goal is to actually really restore the church or if it's something different and whether there's an agenda behind what she's doing not to discount the work that she does on You know uncovering sexual abuse and things like that But it does, you know beg the question.
Why isn't she reporting on something? That is is obvious scandal with source documents But I I think she has an agenda that pretty closely aligns with with David's and people like Ed Stetzer and things like that But I think the silence of I wouldn't necessarily count silence from from some of the organizations
Because some people don't even know who David Platt is It's just reality. But I think some of the ones you're looking at here who are gonna remain silent is
Christianity Today obviously Roy's report Where some other outlets,
I mean, you'll probably never get anything from Stetzer or or any of the The people who are just closely aligned with David, but at least we know if the
Roy's report He's been aware for years of this and has no desire to report on it
It's been quite a challenge to actually be able to even speak to it because from David himself from the the pulpit
He's dehumanized these members 300 400 of us strong who are voicing
We've lost confidence in the congregation. And so he brought in all of this dysfunction and and Deception which has caused a lot of tension between friends family in the church
You know, it's hard for even close friends of ours to have conversation about it because they're believing
David It's like a decade of friendship three decades of friendship is out the window because David Platt said one thing
It's amazing the trust that is, you know put in him But then also the defense that we we've come across with like Media on this so even when we were in the news ever back in the 2021 time frame the stories were in defense of David they
The outlets couldn't hear the other side David has had the microphone and continues to have it and this was our our voice of please hear us also
Yeah, well to a degree we're not obviously trying to be out there we're just here's the truth and take it or leave it
This is not a battle between the McLean Bible Church members or or any of us in the documentary and David or the church
This is David versus God. It's really we're just kind of vessels that hey, this is what we can do we can help by providing the truth and You know people will align with David and that's that's fine.
No issues You know, maybe they'll come to their senses at some point or have some kind of clarity of thought and conscience
But maybe not and again, that's between them and God But this is not a battle between David Blatt and and the members.
This is simply God and the truth versus David Blatt That's where it is at this point. That's a good way to frame it
I wanted people to hear that because Christianity Today did a whole podcast series on Mark Driscoll They reported on the
Steve Lawson thing Not long ago The Gospel Coalition, I just saw book
David Platt for their conference just recently announced this Yeah there you have the
Washington Post right there. And well at least the Washington Post. I don't know if other Mac Newspapers have gotten in on reporting on some of the
McLean stuff. I know they did but there's there seems to be a wall you guys hit and And that's one of the reasons it is outlets like this one it is capstone report
It is 180 Robles talks about it. That's when you're gonna hear this stuff and And so I I'm grateful for those who are carrying the story
But I think people just need to know and protest you by the way Someone mentioned protest you I guess has covered some of this too people need to know though that some of these outlets that normally, you would think would
Keep a celebrity pastor accountable hold his feet to the fire don't necessarily expect that there there's other there's other things going on and it's kind of disappointing to me because this is just David Platt's huge in the evangelical world and Just the in my opinion just the abuse sit thing alone
Just the lying from the stage about the affiliation with the SPC alone. Just the money stuff alone that any of those things should be enough
But Sadly, it's not so that's that's my opinion not putting words in your mouth I Wanted to ask you this last but not least here because I'm assuming that the church reform initiative
That this is the group that funded the documentary essentially, you know, you guys made it
This is the members and ex members of McLean who made this You guys have now formed this organization
Tell me about this organization What you hope to achieve whether or not you would like donations to help cover the cost
I don't know how much it costed you. I'm assuming a lot to make the documentary. So just all of that Go ahead.
You can talk about church reform. It is so basically when members we all started to communicate with each other about our concerns and how to hold the
Leadership accountable. We just started working together to spread the news. It's as grassroots as it could be
We were hosting prayer calls before each and every or we would host prayer evenings before all of these votes
We would have weekly zoom calls to update people. We were just doing our best to inform
Congregants and so we started functioning as This little, you know body of Christians and Doing certain things to spread awareness.
We were trying to educate people on you know, what is spiritual abuse? What is corruption?
You know, what is gaslighting? How can we implement our you know rights as members all these things?
so as we got closer to the decision to move forward with the documentary and these
The lawsuit we wanted to find a way that It could be an official organization
Yeah, basically Representing everything that we've been doing, you know, just as Christians for the first two years and then it formed into a nonprofit which
Creates awareness we can educate we can help on the legal side of things Yeah, so basically what we experienced we wanted to offer the opportunity for other churches
To be able to or members of other churches or whoever You know ensure that the truth is out there to work on accountability so we we have the capability of helping individuals or Organizations that want to research and and make sure that everything's on the up -and -up is kind of the purpose behind the organization
There's a lot of source documents as well from our lawsuit on that church reform initiative website and we're adding more
You know as we have the as the free have the free time to do it But that's kind of the point behind the organization and and you are right.
That is what basically funded the documentary Was was that organization? Yeah, which is just members giving
Just yeah, we had no corporate givers or any back. It was just yeah, just members of the church rank -and -file
Christians You wanted to tell your story So you did and if people want to support what you did then they can go to the church church reform initiative comm
I believe is the website. Yep, or dot org church reform initiative org and You can give a donation there if you like the documentary you can also
Explore the resources there and I'm sure there are other people who are listening who have seen the documentary who are thinking
Hey, that might be happening at my church And you have someone now to talk to and someone who's been through it who knows the signs who knows what to do
So check it out Church reform initiative dot org. This is the website right here.
And Yeah, I'm glad that you did this There's I wasn't aware actually that this was happening before the documentary dropped and I'm really glad to see
There's somewhere to go and people need that I think so Thank you for your bravery
John courage people have been going and sending us emails and it's been such a sweet response
There's there's Heartfelt, you know testimony shared through the church reform initiative already and I just want to thank everybody for their support and we're working our butts off to get back to you as as Best we can so thank you.
All your emails will be responded to just in time There's a lot that are coming through and obviously John we want to thank you for you know, the the help that you provided Capstone, you know was the kind of original guy that that started speaking the truth obviously ad and some of the other outlets as well and also like you mentioned
Andrew Andrew Joyce was a gift was the He's the gift that keeps on giving an absolute genius when it came to putting this together and actually most of the credit should should probably go to him as opposed to anywhere else because he he is a gift a faithful Christian And desires for the truth and transparency to go out as well and what he crafted was was what everybody is watching
Yeah, and for those who don't know Andrew did the whole Nene's deli paint the wall black documentary he's worked with me on a number of different projects and And it's especially if they're a sequential project
I've noticed you can just like hand the footage to Andrew and he like I don't even know I can takes me forever
He just sees it. He's like that. This is what it needs to look like So he did a great job and the documentary you guys all did a great job.
The documentary Was perfect like it hit all the points Everyone I think was just it was honest.
It was heartfelt. It was well done It's exactly the kind of thing we need So if you're
I would just encourage anyone out there who's going through something similar contact church reform initiative. Let them know and And we need to keep these guys accountable
There's not a lot of organizations. Like we just talked about willing to do that kind of thing. So And Judd Saul Judd Saul's in the chat who made the
FBC Naples documentary. He says he also edited FBC Naples He did he did so you can thank
Andrew for and Judd for putting in that last little line about It's hey, it's happening at McLean too.
I remember that. I remember I don't know if that's when you first contacted me I think it was And yeah, maybe it was you it was me about that line
Yeah Yeah all that's all that's currently happening was was simply God ordaining us to watch that and stay until the end of that documentary and seeing
That was happening in our church Which is now erupted into kind of the fiasco that David Platt is experiencing simply because you guys put that at the end of that Documentary.
Yeah, and I can't take credit for that one. By the way, I if I had known I probably would have told Judd Hey, I don't know if we need that in there that we we're going out on some thin ice here
We don't know exactly what's happening at McLean and he's the kind of guy though That's just like he's got a a good nose for things and he's like, yeah, it's happening.
I'm putting it in there He was right. He's totally right It was definitely happening and probably way worse than any of us actually realized so oh
My goodness. Well, hey, you guys are heroes in my mind the true heroes of the church in the 21st century
You're exposing the deeds of darkness that need to be exposed and you're doing it on your own dime with your own time and so we just all thank you for that and Yeah, is there's anything like else that you want to plug or wait for people to get in contact with you?
Is it just all through the church reform initiative or is there anything else? Yeah, virtual form initiative org. I think there's an email address or So it's monitored.
It's just there's a lot coming through so you can email us there. We will respond Actually, you're not selling a book.
You don't you don't want more friends on face. We have nothing Nothing to sell. Well, there's there's nothing to sell.
We're just here to help Anyway, we can't and but yeah, that's that's a good way to get in contact with us