Ex-McLean Bible Church Members on David Platt

Hey everyone, we're live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris still with this lingering cold. So thank you for your prayers. It's getting better slowly day by day. But I feel like I get hit by one of these every fall.

So, please bear with me, but I I have two guests who have not been on the podcast before Jeremiah and Laura Burke and Thanks guys for coming on. I really appreciate it. Good to see you. And Jeremiah and Laura for many of you who are watching you probably recognize them from the David Platt documentary the real David Platt comm if you want to see parts 1 2 and we're just going to talk today about their story what led them to participate in this and really do a lot of the legwork and Groundwork that it took to make this documentary.

So I appreciate you both joining me and I'm looking forward to getting into all the details of this and if people have questions as we're going through this then please put them in the info or rather the chat section on X Facebook or YouTube those are the three places that I can see them.

And if I can see them then I can Relay them to the Berks. Let's get started. With a clip from David Platt. David Platt this last Sunday Got up in front of the congregation that McLean Bible Church, and this is part of what he had to say.

Sympathy chapter 2 verse 7 for this. I was appointed a preacher and an apostle. I am telling the truth. I am NOT lying a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I gotta read these verses and I think about how times in recent years when Falsehoods have spread in and about our church that are so destructive as we mimic a larger culture where falsehoods spread about people like Wildfire.

Apparently, this is not a new thing and Jesus says here's a better way. Do all you can to be trustworthy even the smallest most. Insignificant seemingly insignificant things you say. Speak truth about your life.

Speak truth about others lives. About brothers and sisters in Christ in the church. Do not Slander a brother or sister in Christ. Go to them. If you ever have questions about anything in the church Please by all means go to one of our pastors.

And in this culture. Do not join in this world of being so quick to believe and spread anything you hear about other people or things. Your words matter in a world where truth is hard to find. Do all you can to make your every word trustworthy.

All right. Well, that was last Sunday from David Platt at the stage there at McLean Bible Church and more than one person assumed that he was referring to the documentary that you both were so involved in making that was published last week.

And so I want to ask you first of all for your reaction to that. Are you surprised that David Platt? went up there and essentially insinuated that there are people yourselves being some of those people who are lying about the church who put out false information and he put himself in the In the position of being the honest one in this case.

Yeah, but it's um at this point sadly, it's not surprising to see the gaslighting from the pulpit, but he's just textbook in that. He and his leadership. They've they've made it a habit now of basically when accusations come against them.

They will actually deny them they'll actually attack whoever presented the allegations and they actually reverse the roles of Those who are bringing the accusations. They'll reverse it so that they are now the victim and we are the offenders and it's.

It's interesting to watch and it's helpful when there's clarity around it. Darvo is the is the classic you know acronym that describes this very Simple behavior that perpetrators tend to just use as in their toolkit.

Well it it just I think it's surprising for some people to see a man who is A pastor who has been in the Southern Baptist world for years. Publishing he's been at the highest level. He was president of the IMB to have him come out and just blatantly lie.

Like that that's hard for some people to swallow because I think even after 2020 and seeing so much compromise there's still a lot of people who just trust their leaders and. And I understand that and they just can't.

It doesn't make sense in their head that someone Would just get up there and blatantly lie, but it sounds like that's what you're saying. David Platt did. I mean he just got up there and acted like You were all lying about him.

And he's the one in the position of telling the truth when the roles are actually Quite the reverse of that.

Yeah, it's it would be helpful if we could actually address the accusations at hand. Instead of just attacking the people bringing them and presenting them. Just let's focus on the subject in the content instead of how.

Maybe we're delivering it. Someone might prefer it differently, but most Strategies have been exhausted to this point. Founding members. Elders in the church past elders many people with much more relational capital with these leaders than Jer and I.

Have come forward. They've gone one-on-one. They've gone in groups. We've presented it to the church so it's just Sad that we're at this point where you know David and his leadership refused to address the actual accusations.

Well, I think it's important to start here just because I have seen comments and I've heard some people say things like Where was David Platt and all this how come his side wasn't represented your side and it's not just you.

It's a whole bunch of people who are in this documentary, but that side of things has been represented but David Platt You know his side isn't and is this just a hit job? Are these people have they tried to actually go through proper channels?

And I I know the answers to these things, but I want people to hear from you. Has David Platt been contacted has there been have there been attempts to actually rectify the situation or these situations with?

The pastor of McLean. Yes, we've I mean sent countless emails over the years and we've invited them to To kind of comment or or come on camera for the documentary if they they wanted to but I have seen some of those similar Comments, you know, we have to hear David's side of the story.

But I think the documentary was actually David's side of the story. Those were David's emails. Those were David's comments from the stage so if there's another side of the story would be ours, but we're in complete agreement with what was in the documentary, which was Actually David's documentary.

I mean David in a way helped produce that it was all his own content. So there is really no other side of the story, which is why David won't comment people are asking you look online. You know David come out and and address this but he won't because there's nothing to address that's.

That's the story. There's only one we have no other story other than kind of what was presented. And I was struck by that how many videos? Emails depositions that you acquired in discovery. All of these things are primary source.

You can watch them and you can make determinations based off of them. Obviously primary sources it can be Used and arranged to try to make someone look bad and so forth. But in the process of making this documentary and and with what was presented this was very thorough this was very I would say comprehensive and And and this would be so simple for someone like David Platt if he wanted to to refute he could Write something he could do a met he could say something.

There's a lot of ways he has more channels available to him than you guys have by far. He's got he's a huge platform and I thought it was interesting I saw in religion news service, which is generally I would consider them more left-wing and so forth.

And more on Platt side of things and in fact the reporter there kind of admitted that That he has been friendly with Platt and it's promoted Platt stuff. They Put out an article recently. I think it was two or three days ago essentially saying that David Platt's Organization is PR firm.

I don't you guys have a PR firm. I don't think so. Right. No, David, but you're our PR. Yeah, well because no no one else is talking to you. No one else is putting you on. I mean, it's left to people like myself to give you somewhat of a platform here, but David's PR firm Contacts religion news service not saying anything about the documentary and it kind of ticked off this writer.

Because he was just like hey. You didn't even tell me anything about this. I didn't it was strange that you reached out all of a sudden wanting to make David Platt look good publicly and now I understand why because all of this stuff is going to be released and it was and There there was speculation about whether David Platt was in You know across the other side of the world just before this dropped and putting all kinds of things on social media to try to Do some some some management of his image and that kind of thing.

So here's the question though. That's all what I'm seeing and what other people are seeing in the public. But the question is Is this going to continue? Do you think that David Platt is going to ever try to bring a substantive response to what you've done or or is this it?

I mean, is it really just you know, you put out this documentary and They're not going to respond to it. They're not going to engage with you and they're not going to let the public know. Or verify confirm deny any of what's what's happened in the eye of the public.

Sure, so and maybe just one correction. I'm not sure if it was RNS or if it was Baptist News Global. Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say RNS? Yeah, I meant about yes. But I think it was bad, I think that was the Writer, you're absolutely correct.

Okay, and and maybe for everybody else's knowledge and I don't have a hundred percent Clarification or confirmation on this but yeah they did hire a PR firm and we don't know who it is, but my my belief is that it would be Pinkston their local firm, but They are used.

There's actually a podcast that Clint Clifton did who was part of NAM and he had Christian Pinkston on there and it's basically how to deal with crisis and image control. So my guess is that it's Pinkston out of Annandale, Virginia, which is very close to David again I don't have any proof of that.

But that's if I was a betting man.

That's my guess is who it is. And a lot of NBC employees have transitioned from McLean staff to you know that.

Yeah, but I don't see them coming out with any. I Don't see David coming out or the church coming out with any response. What they are doing if you look there seems to be a common thread if you just look on social media a lot of trolls let's just call them trolls not to disparage anybody, but They're saying kind of the same thing and it's it's either they're disgruntled members, which no one's really disgruntled.

I mean, we've made more really really long-term Faithful friends out of this whole process than we had before it started so we're kind of grateful for the opportunity to have met so many wonderful people but What's happening online?

I guess is is you seeing this this the same comments? It's just don't watch it. And then when people criticize that and say well, why not watch it and They say well, you'd be a fool if you believed it then you can watch it, but you're a fool if you believe it.

So I think that's pretty much the content. That would be What they have to go on it's either just don't watch it or don't believe it or don't even mention at all which has kind Of been the mo for the last couple of years.

Just pretend like nothing's there and this has come up in the congregation Multiple times and you just kind of dismiss it and hope it goes away.

That's I don't see them addressing it in Sunday from the pulpit just before the clip that you started at David is saying you have the choice on social media to either click and affirm the lies. Yes, and pass on the lies or not to click so you can see, you know, whether it's David and his backing at the SBC his PR firm other people who are losing money based on his reputation Going down the drain or just being exposed for who he is.

They have interest to to help him get through this. But the argument just don't watch it isn't really strong to everyone who is.

Concerned for the truth. It makes you wonder about PR firms. I remember when Jerry Falwell jr. Gotten in deep trouble he had a PR firm to and the advice it's just like I wonder whether or not it's wise to take any of that advice because hundreds of thousands of people at this point have watched your documentary and it's out in so many different forms and.

You've allowed it to you haven't copyrighted it. You've allowed it to be spread on YouTube and on X and on all kinds of social media platforms by anyone who wants to just spread and get the word out there and.

And I think it would be prudent at this point probably to just start from the beginning for people to know your motives who you are. What made you decide to do this. Because. It wasn't just you. How many people were involved.

How many people were actually in the documentary? I didn't count when I was watching it. Yeah, probably roughly 20 somewhere in that range. You see 20 people that decided to take time out of their lives.

And I don't know about you but even in what I do on social media, I Think my wife would say you need that like you need a tooth pulled like that's not something that you just engage in and not. Only that you guys went to court you were in court for how long?

Regarding some of these issues. So our our specific case that we were in lasted about a year and there's another one that was filed in July of 2021. That's still in the court system. So that's three years old and that's still moving through.

Okay, so and you're both. You're not on staff at McLean you you're normal people with normal lives. You make money to feed your children and to live like the rest of us do. What made you decide to do this?

Yeah. Those you can get maybe you're you're right. Yeah, we're doing it. Yeah.

Um, we just started to see our church Falling apart in a sense. It was not even. So falling apart is not even an appropriate word. It was being dismantled systematically dismantled and when members tried to just execute their rights and Do what we have committed.

We were committed to this church. We still are committed to this church as members and We just started seeing red flag after red flag and It forced us to kind of all right, let's research some stuff. Let's try to find answers let's talk to as many people in the congregation as we can and everyone just started sharing stories of I took this concern to the church.

I did this this happened we went to this and They just keep reporting all of their Stories and and testimonies of what the leadership was doing and we just felt as like Members, you can't just walk away.

You can't just you know, leave it up to.

Yeah, I don't even know I mean if you go back in time. So what it was when when David came in it was very odd how the whole thing happened it was it was kind of like a cloud over the church for that one one and a half year period and No one really knew what was going on.

It's kind of like It was probably a demonic presence over the church. It really was and Then David all of a sudden gets installed as the pastor and the elders to this day will even admit they didn't follow the process.

There's actually a process laid out in the Constitution. We have to bring forward multiple candidates in the church evaluates them and they make their choice. That was not given it was just David. Dave was put up David was was picked and started into the church and then lawns gone basically.

After that happened some people left because they didn't like the the church was basically violating this Constitution so you had a wave of people kind of leave at the start and then some of the waves when people started to see some stuff in the sermons and then in 2019 when when Trump came to the church and he had to apologize and I'm telling you that's that was probably David's worst day of his life having to To pray for the man that he hates so vehemently.

He cannot stand Donald Trump and he had to pray for him and then he had to send an apology letter I think it was the next day and I think that caused another wave of people to leave. They were pretty frustrated that he left but I think that's when people started to realize Oh David's actually not this.

Kind of typical Southern Baptist conservative. He's actually a far-left liberal a radical liberal. And in his stances and then that started to come out and especially in 2020 and then you started to see More people kind of leave and then a lot of his sermons became very social justice and CRT oriented which caused some more people to leave and at that point you were I mean the numbers dropped from 13 and a half thousand.

To I late 2020 you were probably down to around 6 ,000 maybe 5 ,000 something in those ranks.

It's like why are all these people leaving. Where is it?

How many people at the height under Lon Solomon how many people were there I should say just before David Platt got there and then. How many people are there? I guess now if you know or at least you know by the time you were leaving.

Sure, there was there was 13 and a half thousand. That was when the lawn transition out and David came in and even for the first, you know. A couple of months or maybe a year there was. Probably around 13 ,000 still.

But then it just started to decline and decline and decline it got it got pretty bad. Our budget. Yeah, the budget was somewhere in the 33 to 36 million dollar range maybe 32 to 36 million and that's down to probably a low 20s if that at this point, but attendance is now down to.

It's a six and a half maybe that's insane that is such a Failure story if if if what they're trying to do, which I know from the SPC world is make these churches bigger. Add campuses plant other churches.

David Platt supposed to be a success story. I mean he's been promoted for years in. Not even just the SPC circles, but outside of those circles as the wave of the future. I think I was reading that it was.

Herschel York was saying a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary when David Platt Was becoming the head of the IMB that this was he painted it in such bright colors. This was the wave of the future.

This was such an exciting thing. I remember feeling that in the SPC people thought he was going to fix everything to hear what you're saying is I Think it would have surprised a lot of people. And you didn't I don't know if that was actually covered in the documentary the drop in attendance and the drop in the budget.

Maybe it wasn't. I just missed it. Yeah, we didn't know we didn't mention it. There's there's so much stuff that was not able to be covered. That was just kind of the tip of the iceberg. But there's a there's a lot more if there was time and energy.

We could. Yeah, this is part three right here.

And one of the things David did do as soon as he came in was he changed our actual mission statement of the church? It went from what was our original mission statement under basically making an evangelical.

It's the fact I'm in Washington DC and if you can change DC you can change the world. And David. Yeah.

Yeah, let's make disciples and plant churches or something along those making disciples and multiplying churches among the nation which aligns exactly with NAM's mission statement. And so when we Saw everything happening in the congregation all of us members start filling each other in and and being honest with each other.

We started the purpose of let's restore this church back to its original Vision and purpose for which it was founded upon. And that's what our hope is. We we the purpose of this film was made for. Our church our local church people from NBC who were there.

For since its founding, you know, the the lay pastors the ministry leaders The congregants this is for them to help us just continue to restore this church. Yeah.

What was the moment I know you've told me this but what was the moment that you thought that's that's it I have to do this now because I know you were seeing some of this stuff happen and. And we didn't even mention the fact that not only were the finances greater and the numbers greater but you also had a Political influence in a sense because you had a lot that was the place to go right for a lot of Republican Senators and the staffers and that kind of thing and now I mean their influence is so diminished.

You see your church deteriorating in all these different ways. When did you say? Okay, we're gonna do it. We're gonna go after this. Sure, I think I think the the catalyst behind it was actually the Naples documentary that we saw because everything leading up to this The church was just getting Systematically destroyed and everybody was just leaving but it was during kovat and they'd shut the church down.

So no one could actually communicate people just left and you would see them in another church. I'm like, oh, what are you doing here? Oh, I left so by the time the church kind of Reopened there really wasn't anybody left.

They cut the services I think from three or four services down to two services and those weren't even getting filled. But what we had noticed in that period of time was the Theology was also off. We didn't really know much about the the SPC relationship at that point because they'd obviously said from the pulpit.

We're not part of the SPC, you know. Here's here's what we do with them, but no one had ever seen the financials and like you said from the lawsuit. That's when we actually found out it was Substantially more money that they were moving to the Southern Baptist Convention than any of us had any idea of but a lot of what he was doing was Taking this.

Well, I guess from a theological perspective if he was he was having the church take this class and he created called the gospel the church justice and race and he was Asking anybody who participated in it to give their ethnicity and their political affiliation.

So before you could take the class, I think it was each week you had to actually fill out this form with with this information and then he would take feedback during the The actual class which was all virtual but then he would take out pretty much all the comments that were from anybody who probably said they're white or Conservative because he said oh, we've taken all the feedback.

It's great. We're incorporating it but they were just kind of tossing all that and The content was bad to begin with because all of the responses were basically this is a horrible Piece of work that you put together David.

You should trash the whole thing. This should never go out. And so he would be from the elders. Yes, this is the elders are saying this to not just the congregation. So that was one of the the catalyst.

Well, this is kind of weird if he's gonna be pushing this to not only the congregation but try to push it out through all the churches that he's planted because it's it's definitely a gospel that's. It's deviant for sure.

It's just not totally corrupted gospel so that was one of the things that kind of set people on edge, but then later in the year when the church finally reopened you see Stonewalling of members when they're asking questions about the finances or David stances on things.

So that's what we started to look in. To whether they actually were affiliated with the SPC because it had been something they had denied for years. So we just started to research and research and look at documents that were available from the state convention and then some emails to the SPC itself and that's kind of how it all started and we figured let's let's do what we can to restore the church and the only way to do that is to actually get rid of David because he's the the Puppet master of everything that's happening here.

So That's kind of what led to the whole March 31st medium where we asked for David's removal was just a series of him of years of him just destroying the church, but it was it was bits and pieces because he couldn't do it all at once there were some elders that were Like the gentleman who came on camera who had No, not Kevin.

It was a Craig who came on camera who had morals and you know wanted to run things how they should have been run, but David really probably couldn't get anything done and Right in the way he wanted to until Craig was out and that was I think late 20 or early 2021 and that's when you see the installation of all of these yes men and corrupt individuals that David actually wanted to put in place the.

Whole time and the the the motivation was how crucial each generation is to know the gospel and For the church to to stand firm on the truth and reality of the scriptures and it was like we're seeing this.

You have to stand up and fight for truth.

For you know, yeah, that was probably overarching right the gospel could be lost in any generation and luckily to this point it hasn't but David has a lot of influence and he can he can push out a False doctrine and you have a young generation, but what we've seen even older generations are accepting this.

So just a lack of clarity a lack of probably biblical knowledge to understand What's what he's actually saying? But we obviously didn't want this this deviant gospel to go out to a younger generation and be totally confused as to what the real gospel actually is.

It's a noble effort and a noble motivation and I think people need to hear that especially people who are defensive of flat from the church perhaps or you know. There's a lot of people who love flat in all kinds of arenas who want to think that you're a bunch of meanies you just.

Which is kind of an insane story in my mind. But like you woke up one day and decided to spend your own money and your own time and lots of it. To tell the story about this guy. Because you just wanted to rip him down because because of why you're not jostling with him for any kind of position you have no Reason to compete with him on any level.

It's just that and this is the explanation that actually makes sense of it. You care that the facts actually get out there. And even in the case that you were part of what did he call it a non suit? I think you didn't actually get any Rectification compensation it was just hey, can we use these depositions and these emails that have been Found in discovery to let people know that this guy is dangerous.

I Commend you very strongly for this. I was talking to my wife just the other day and I was Thinking about this you mentioned the Naples thing. So I just got to say this for the listeners in this audience who support what I do and stuff.

I remember where I was I was attending Liberty University at the time and I remember I got a phone call from someone who was in your shoes, but not at McLean but at a different church first Baptist Naples and I remember the whole conversation.

I remember that, you know, it's like one of those memories where everything's vivid and I had never done a documentary anything like that. But we hung up the phone and I just said I've got to figure out how to get cameras down there we need to get this story because I had just seen the SBC and that when was that 20 19 I think the SBC big wigs had all come out to say that there is this racist problem at FBC Naples and and Their side wasn't being told and so I called my friend Judd Saul.

We went down there. He brought cameras. Kerry Gordon conducted the interviews. I was doing the intake and I remember sitting there. With the people who are about to go on camera and getting their story helping them articulate it and Just the tears streaming down their faces many of them that so many who had been there for years.

Same thing with this same thing with this and if that had not happened, you know that one phone call. We not only would we not have the Naples documentary, but you know, it's just I don't know it boggles my mind how God works.

There probably wouldn't be the McLean documentary either. Because that was one of the things you saw that inspired you that look this is not just at our church this is happening other places and and it is and there's so many places that it's happened and people don't have the resources to tell their side, but you did and.

And good on you for doing that. I know this wasn't a cheap ordeal for you and and you decided to go ahead with it so. So my next question is this. Because I have gotten this question more than anything else and I had I went to people on patreon and I said I'll get to your questions first.

And this is the first question I got. Where's Lon Solomon in all this? Where's? Your in and I I was thinking of the Naples thing and they had a pastor Hayes wicker. And it was like a similar thing where I think he had signed an NDA or something and he couldn't like he felt bad.

He hated what was happening, but his hands were tied. Is that what happened with the Lon Solomon why wasn't he able to come back and Say hey enough. This is bad. This is you know, I've shepherded this flock for so many years get out.

Well, we just yeah, we actually just got a statement from Lon Lon himself. People have been writing into Lon Solomon ministries asking where are you on and basically, the quote is to the extent where.

Like you saw in the film I was out of any control of McLean Bible Church early 2017 so in 2016 we hear him from the pulpit saying I love this church. I'm not going anywhere to then. Fast-forward 2017.

And he's teaching from the stage every other Sunday, but he you know admits there's no Actual authority that he has and he can't comment on the documentary because of his separation agreement.

Yeah, actually I found it here. So I think his statement is as you noticed in part two of the video series I was removed by the elders from all operational involvement at NBC in early 2017 as part of my separation agreement.

Thus I had no part in decisions made after that time as part of my separation agreement. I am NOT at liberty to comment on events at McLean Bible Church or David Platt. Sorry that sorry that I cannot be of more help.

So that's as long as I think public statement that he's put out because he's he's been good I think he's been getting. I mean we haven't talked to Lon. But we do know some people that do know Lon and I think that's his public statement everybody reaching out to him.

Well, that's interesting because it also signals his approval of the documentary or at least he's saying it's accurate. He's saying that part two. It's accurate. What it as so far as it I guess concerned him.

Was he. So the documentary talks about this some but I think people want more clarification. Was he forced out? Did he leave of his own accord? Was what exactly happened that he left so quickly and David Platt was installed so quickly.

Sure, so I think from what I've gathered and there's different stories from from different sources and we haven't heard it from from Lon obviously because we haven't spoken to him, but It seems like the idea was to bring David in and there would be a period where they would do joint pastoring this is my understanding because David was still running IMB so he couldn't kind of be a full-time pastor at the same time as Running International Mission Board.

So I believe the idea was that Lon would Still be in the pulpit at least part-time and David would be in part-time and maybe it would be a mentorship or something along. Those lines, but as soon as Lon signed it like he said it I think it was February of 17.

They basically ousted him so he could still come to the pulpit for a time being until David got there. But then after David was there, I think within a few months Lon was gone from the church never came back.

Yeah, he did come back one time to speak at a funeral and I think you could tell the relationship between him and David because after he spoke and he sat down and then David spoke and then before David finished on got up and walked off the stage and left and he didn't stick around for the funeral and it Was one of the ladies who actually founded the church.

Betty, right? It was her funeral and Lon didn't even stay around to talk with David or anybody. He was also invited to my knowledge to the installation of Mike Kelsey. Who's the kind of new quasi lead pastor to a degree?

He was invited to that and declined to attend that as well. I think that was last year if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, he hasn't come back to the church hasn't communicated with anybody to our knowledge.

Most this point most separation agreements or NDAs. That I've at least seen. You're allowed to praise the institution. You can support the institution, but usually it's like Beware, don't say anything.

That could reflect negatively on me. Yeah, I think Lon's silence is speaking enough. Because he could come to the church's defense if he wanted to come to David's defense, but his silence I think is Showing what's true and what's not.

There's a question here that I think goes along with this from Magnus. How many elders were there during this time and maybe what's behind that is? Hey, were they all on board with let's bring in David Platt and The SBC affiliation that eventually came and everything else, you know.

Like because I think this is what people have a hard time with is how so you take out Lon Solomon. He's gone from the equation Aren't. Isn't there still a board there that has been with Lon and and wouldn't let this kind of thing happen.

Yeah, that's all right.

Can everyone still hear me? I'm gonna remove All right. Can everyone still hear me? I think we just had a problem with Jeremiah and Laura. I'm hoping it's not just on my end. Am I the one that is also frozen.

I hope not. All right. It looks like people are saying they can at least hear me. They froze. Okay. All right, so they're gonna probably rejoin and we'll get the answer to that question. I was waiting with bated breath there in the meantime I will just direct everyone if you want to see this documentary.