The Here I Stand Theology Podcast (Romans 13, Philosophy, Politics and The Gospel

Here I Stand Theology iconHere I Stand Theology

3 views

Today we interview Tyler Noe from Bread of the Word Podcast

0 comments

00:21
Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.
00:29
Will you recant or will you not? Since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply,
00:52
I will answer. Unless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason, and not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God.
01:20
To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not.
01:38
Here I stand. I can do no other.
01:46
God help me. The Here I Stand Theology Podcast is a ministry of Reverend Ramada Baptist Church.
02:44
We are not going to delay. We are going to jump right into the episode today.
02:49
We have been anxiously looking forward to, with eagerness and anticipation, to talk with Tyler Noe from Bread of the
03:00
Word Podcast. So with that being said, without any further ado, let's go ahead and bring in Tyler.
03:09
Here we go. Hello, hello. Hang on a minute. I forgot something.
03:16
Let me try that again. Let's bring in Tyler Noe. We hope you're welcome,
03:37
Tyler. How are you, sir? I'm doing pretty good. Thank you. Happy to be here. Good, good.
03:44
So Tyler, you were so gracious to let me be on your podcast a couple of months back.
03:49
And that was such a joy. I mean that with everything. It was a breath of fresh air, really, to be on with you, and particularly you being a young man and so rooted and grounded in the faith.
04:06
So we are so excited that you are with us today. I appreciate that. I greatly benefited from sitting down and listening to you preach for an hour.
04:16
Oh, my. It was good for me, too. OK, OK. So let's let's jump into this.
04:26
I'll give kind of a segue, an introduction to the folks that will be watching this episode. Tyler, every
04:33
Sunday at two o 'clock, is that correct? When you release your episode, your podcast every
04:39
Sunday at two o 'clock at two o 'clock, Tyler releases a new episode from his podcast
04:48
Bread of the Word podcast. Tell us a little bit about Bread of the Word, how you got started,
04:53
Tyler, just kind of the formation of the podcast itself. So Bread of the
05:00
Word actually started out with COVID when my church was locked down.
05:06
So we weren't meeting in person. Our congregation was mostly 80 plus. And so there were some logistical reasons that we thought it was probably best to go online for a while.
05:17
And so I started putting out content as part of a ministry at the church. I was on staff as the associate pastor for about a year.
05:25
And so I was going verse by verse through the Book of Revelation.
05:31
And I quickly found out how much I did not know about the Book of Revelation. You know, a 20 year old dispensationalist,
05:39
I've got two college classes under my belt. You was ready, as they say in the country, to charge hell with a water pistol.
05:49
Pretty much. But I started going verse by verse through those first couple chapters and breaking down how this all points to Christ.
05:59
And then it honestly grew to a point that I moved into a separate platform.
06:04
And I started thinking about names and all this. Bread of the Word is not really a name that you'd come up with necessarily.
06:12
But honestly, it came from one of the old prayers that the ancient
06:20
Jews would recite back in the days of Christ. Blessed are you, Lord our God, who brings forth the bread of the earth.
06:29
There was just something about that that really grabbed me, that that is a cool prayer.
06:35
Can we approach the Word of God like that? And so, blessed are you,
06:41
Lord our God, who brings forth the bread of the Word. It fit.
06:47
It was kind of weird. It's almost perfect. I'm not really that creative, but it fits so well.
06:52
And this is ultimately what I've been trying to do is to feast on the Word, to help equip people to feast on the
07:00
Word. The motto for the Bread of the Word podcast is reclaiming the
07:06
Bible and exalting Christ one verse at a time. Ultimately, we just plow through passages of Scripture verse by verse.
07:14
We've been going through Romans since, I think, October. And then Ecclesiastes is on deck in a couple weeks.
07:23
That'll be exciting to hear from a man who thought he knew everything.
07:31
He did everything, and then he realized he didn't know nothing. Oh, snap. I don't know anything.
07:38
I think that's a relevant book, and I just can't shake Ecclesiastes right now. There's just something,
07:44
I think, that we're missing there. I'm excited to break that down. Looking at a lot of the question -asking we're seeing these days with deconstruction and postmodernism, what is truth?
07:58
Why am I here? What matters? I think those answers are in the
08:04
Word of God. Let's find them together. That's right. And it sounds a little bit like philosophy.
08:10
I think we realized yesterday that we may be delving a little bit into philosophy tonight. But the main goal and the idea and where we really want to head toward tonight is understanding
08:25
Romans 13. I know over the last two years, Romans 13 really has come to light, more so than probably normally within the mind of the
08:37
Christian. There have been a lot of, I think, misconceptions and wrongheaded thinking about Romans 13.
08:52
What I so appreciate, Tyler, about what you do on your podcast is that you compare
09:00
Scripture with Scripture, that you're not reaching out for some vague or new ideology, but that you are genuinely exegeting the
09:13
Scripture, like you say, one verse at a time. There's one other tagline that you have on your podcast.
09:21
What is that? About leaving breadcrumbs? I love that. Leaving a trail of breadcrumbs to a more meaningful and God -saturated life.
09:29
Amen. Amen. That is so good. But before we get into that tonight, let's start, because we want, it's likely our audience may already know you.
09:41
We tried to share you around and get you out there. But maybe our audience wants to know a little bit more personal about Tyler.
09:49
Who is Tyler Noe? What does he like? What does he dislike? I want to say like and hate, but the snowflakes may not like that.
10:02
But it's the Here I Stand Theology Podcast, so we can say what we want.
10:09
And with the exception of YouTube or Facebook shutting us down, so be it. So let's start with some fun icebreaker questions tonight,
10:18
Tyler. My first question to you, now you know this one's coming.
10:24
Can you spell provocateur? That was so coming.
10:33
I laughed so hard when I saw that one was coming. How do you spell provocateur? P -R -O -V -O -C -A -T -E -U -R.
10:45
Provocateur. P -R -O -V -O -C -A -T -U -E -R.
10:53
E -U -R. U -E -R. Anyway, anyway, the point was, the point was that, you know, if we're going to say words, we need to be able to spell the words.
11:10
And I find myself doing that from time to time. And I'm always, I'm always checking myself on that.
11:16
So how about this? So you know the arm wrestling question. You know, that's the really the main thing.
11:23
So in your household, if you've got members of your household, so if you and any member of your household arm wrestled, who would win?
11:39
Well, if I arm wrestled my dad, I would lose. Good answer.
11:46
Good answer. Good answer. All right. So now let's go to theology questions. So who is your favorite pre -reformer?
11:55
Pre -reformer, probably Augustine. And how about favorite reformer?
12:04
John Knox. Oh, yes. I was there. I give you a high five and hug you for that.
12:11
And how about favorite post -reformer? John Owen. John Owen.
12:17
Very good. He is profound when I can read him. Read, reread, stop, digest, reread again.
12:27
Yes, absolutely. Very good. Very good. So let's jump into the text of Scripture.
12:36
Let's go ahead and bring that up, because obviously if we're going to be talking about it, we want to look at it.
12:42
That is our foundation and is our basis. So let's read.
12:47
What we'll do, we'll just read the entire 13th chapter of Romans. Scripture says,
12:52
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
13:04
Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
13:14
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?
13:21
Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good.
13:28
But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out
13:38
God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore, one must be in subjection, not only to avoid
13:46
God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this, you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.
13:58
Pay to all what is owed them, taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to him whom honor is owed.
14:11
Owe no man anything except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
14:19
For the commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and any other commandment are summed up in this word, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
14:32
Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
14:38
Besides this, you know the time that the hour has come for you to awake from sleep, for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
14:48
The night is far gone, the day is at hand, let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.
14:55
Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy, but put on the
15:06
Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desires.
15:14
So, let's just start at the beginning of the chapter here. Let's just start there.
15:21
So, what is the context of Romans 13, Tyler? So, when he is writing the book of Romans, Paul is writing to the
15:32
Christians in Rome, and he's gathering support. He wanted to go to Spain. He wanted to partner with the church in Rome and hope to maybe come there and minister with them, both for their benefit and his.
15:48
And I think it's safe to say that he saw Rome in some ways as almost like a gateway city to reach the
15:57
Roman Empire with the gospel. The Christians in Rome were in an optimal position to spread the gospel through Rome, the
16:06
Greco -Roman society. So, when we get to Romans 13, Paul, he's laid out a lot of heavy, deep doctrine, just chiseling away at pride and all this piece by piece with like a surgical knife almost for so many chapters.
16:28
And he gets to chapter 12, and he moves into application. And he's laying out some hard truth still, but it's directed in application.
16:38
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Live peaceably with all as far as it depends on you.
16:46
And after he says that sentence, we get the government. In an age where a lot of the
16:53
Jews wanted to shake off Rome and go back to Israel as a superpower,
17:01
Paul says submit. Yeah. So, Paul is saying submit, and is the government at that time good or bad?
17:15
Rome was very wicked, very barbaric. It was not something a lot of people wanted to submit to, but Paul in this letter does say, be in submission to the authorities that are above you.
17:30
Yep. So, how is a good government modeled, Tyler?
17:36
I mean, you talked about this in your episode, but again, I want you to unpack all this here with us.
17:42
So, a good, you actually, I'll quote you in your episode. You said, a good government is modeled after the fact that there is a good
17:51
God over us. Right. So, if we keep reading in Romans 13, he uses the phrase ministers of God at least twice.
18:02
Yeah. And when we read that in Greek, it actually comes out to the same word that is rendered as deacon.
18:10
Right. That in a sense, government is a deacon of God. And it's the same word that we translate as deacon when we get to like 2
18:19
Peter, with the qualifications of a deacon, of an overseer. And it's very much used that way throughout the
18:25
New Testament. I don't think it's out of place to say that the government is a deacon in that way, that they are entrusted as an overseer of the people of God.
18:37
That's right. Invested originally as the Lord designed government to be.
18:45
So, I think there's a, I don't think we put this, had this in our notes, but it made me think about something when you were just saying what you said there.
18:56
The idea that as servants of God, the primary role of the government, the primary function of government is and has been biblically, would you agree or disagree on this, is or has been and is, according to the scriptures, has been a punitive, had a very punitive office, by the text itself, right?
19:37
That God, Paul said, God has set government over us to punish evildoers.
19:46
I guess I'm setting this out there as from the perspective or the idea of punitive law, punishing law versus positive law.
20:01
In other words, kind of saying, if you do this, you'll be blessed. If you do that, you won't. What, in your estimation, has been the thrust of government or the function of government, punitive or positive law primarily?
20:22
In recent years, I would say, without a doubt, that we see this positive law, this notion of almost like this economy of blessing, which when we really break that down, that's a very
20:35
Roman Catholic idea of trying to cooperate with grace and work with the system and honestly play the system.
20:43
It's like a stock market of getting this desired end.
20:48
If you want this, do what the government says. And there is some of that.
20:55
I mean, it does say in Galatians that you reap what you sow. And Paul does say too, if you want to live peaceably, then honor the government, that there is an element of that reaping and sowing.
21:09
But in the grander picture here, the government should exist to bear the sword and punish wickedness, which is not a positive economy system like that, but it's punitive.
21:24
It is punishing wickedness, which is a much smaller scope than what we're seeing today.
21:31
I would agree 100 % right there. I just wanted to touch on that because that really is a big deal when you really get down and start looking at what government and its function and its roles biblically should be.
21:51
So how would you say that the view of governmental authority has been skewed?
21:57
I'll say this. How has the idea of governmental authority not been skewed?
22:03
That's too light of the word. How has it been turned on its head by those in the government themselves and by those of us who are governed, the people of a government?
22:17
So let's start with the government itself. How has the government turned this on its head? Well, that's a little bit of a history question, but that ultimately
22:27
I think goes back to about 1900 when you saw the rise of what we call progressivism.
22:34
Honestly, the progressives were probably more in line with today's conservatives, just to put that out there.
22:39
But the idea of progressivism was this notion that we've progressed from the authorial intent of the
22:48
Constitution, that it needs to be a living document, that it was those original intentions of the founders were sufficient for the
22:57
America of their day, but it doesn't work now. We need a better handle on new issues.
23:04
And this was spearheaded largely by Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and John Dewey and some of those guys.
23:12
But it was this notion of progressing from the original, and ultimately it was vying for bigger government, this notion that the government will take care of all of our problems.
23:24
And we saw that really start to come into fruition probably after World War II with Franklin Roosevelt and the
23:33
New Deal and all of these government offices he opened, all these programs and all this extra stuff trying to rebuild the economy after the war.
23:45
And actually it prolonged the reconstruction from the war because of all this level of government intervention and the trickle -down from that.
23:55
Actually it wreaked a lot of havoc on the economy and all these bailouts didn't pan out.
24:03
But you have that model that's emerging of the government exists to make my life easy, to take care of me.
24:12
And human greed and selfishness can take things a long way.
24:19
So we've come a long way in the almost 80 years since then, but that idea still persists that the government exists to take care of me, to make my life easy, to essentially put my feet up.
24:34
And it's just gotten bigger. And the problems have gotten bigger since the 40s.
24:40
So that scope is massive now. And we've definitely got that misconstrued that from the government side of the perspective here, they exist to have absolute control over everything so they can fix everything.
24:59
And ultimately that makes government to be God. And when we dig into that a little bit, one example we could go with was when
25:12
Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed. And there were these protests outside the
25:17
Supreme Court and you had people singing Amazing Grace. Oh, wow.
25:24
Well, hold up because a few minutes earlier, they were singing Imagine by John Lennon.
25:29
Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. We've already invoked this worldview. But there is no
25:35
God above the state. Now we're going to sing to the God that we just said doesn't exist, isn't necessary.
25:43
And so we had this mindset that the government is the final authority.
25:49
And when the government says it's a problem, it's a problem. But then it also stems from a view of people under that authority of moving from being citizens to subjects.
26:06
That we don't live in first century Rome. We live in a government that was modeled to operate at the consent of the governed.
26:18
But with this notion of bigger governments and bigger programs and bigger budgets, we've gotten away from that to the government is more like a king, more like a absolute monarchy, almost a dictatorship sometimes.
26:36
And we are just along for the ride. So there we see how the government has turned the idea of government from a biblical understanding up on its head.
26:51
And as the people, being the people governed, would you say that it's an accurate statement to say that we have...
27:01
Well, you mentioned it, actually. A lot of folks, Christians even unwittingly see the government and they wouldn't come out and say it with their mouth.
27:12
They see the government as God, but they have become so dependent upon the government and the rise and the fall of political parties and the condition of our financial status, so on and so forth.
27:30
They've saw that as their hope and their peace within the world as opposed to looking unto the
27:37
Lord. Because, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I would say that we as a nation are looking to government for our deliverance and providence, which by definition is idolatry.
27:51
Amen. In its simplest terms, we are looking to government to save us.
27:57
Amen. Amen. So, with that being said, let's ask this question next.
28:10
So, if the government doesn't have a right to do what it wants to do and we as citizens of the government should not look to the government as God, who governs...
28:29
This is a softball question, Tyler. Who governs the citizens and the government?
28:39
That would be God. Right, and God's law. Would you agree there? I would agree.
28:45
So, you've done a fantastic job of talking politics. Now, let's talk philosophy for just a minute.
28:51
So, here we make our segue. So, natural law and Aquinas this year, as for some reason in reform circles, kind of made a comeback, kind of made a rise in popularity, but he wasn't all right.
29:16
I'm not on board with Aquinas. I like the idea of the philosophy of natural law to an extent until you really start digging, kind of peeling back the layers of what's under it and what goes on with it.
29:34
But we have really two things that I wanted us to touch on here, was natural law theory versus divine command theory, right?
29:48
So, there are two things here. And you, I appreciated your response when
29:55
I texted you this. You said, oh, you were like excited that we were going to talk philosophy. So, that immediately pumped me up because I'm ready to hear what you have to say about it.
30:10
So, a couple of different things that we could look at. I'll bring us up a graphic, and we can try to kind of go over it together here, and we'll touch on natural law.
30:22
We'll touch on divine command theory. It's really three things, natural law, man's law, and God's law.
30:31
Natural law is, I think, a very generic reference to God's law based upon this little chart here, right?
30:41
Natural law based upon principles and truth inherent to creation. Man's law based upon dogmatic beliefs or constructs of the mind.
30:52
So, we have a lot of philosophy that goes into that. A lot of ideology, social justice in our current day,
30:59
CRT, things like that. It all plays into kind of that column there.
31:06
Natural law, I'll skip down to the third one. It's somewhat, it is universal in the true sense in reference to God's law being natural law.
31:20
Exists and applies anywhere in the universe regardless of location. It doesn't matter whether you're in America, whether you're in Africa, you're in Asia, no matter where God's moral or natural law as it's posited is universal.
31:37
Man's law, however, differs based on your location. It's okay to do one thing if you're in another country as opposed to doing something here in the
31:45
United States. Natural law is eternal, immutable, exists and applies for as long as the universe exists and cannot be changed.
31:54
Again, these basic understandings of natural law really, I think, do a good job of honing the idea down.
32:04
But again, when you start peeling back the layers, you see the flaws in it. And last of all, man's law changes with time based upon the whim of legislators.
32:12
And really it boils down to moral relativism, how it's morally applicable in our day based upon the changing morality of our day.
32:26
So talk a little bit, if you would, there, about the distinctions between natural law and man's law.
32:35
And then we'll just touch briefly on divine command theory as well. So the idea with the natural law,
32:45
I think what they're referring to is what we would find in places like Romans 1 about how we knew
32:53
God, but we didn't honor him as God, even though he's plain to us.
32:59
That there's an element of God's character that is reflected in nature because we're made in the image of God.
33:07
And I think what we're talking about with this basic natural law could be summed up largely in the
33:15
Ten Commandments, which is often considered to be the most basic summary of the law, specifically the second table, those last six.
33:27
Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, bear false witness against thy neighbor and things of that nature.
33:33
For the most part, those are things that we would generally agree are good things.
33:39
Where that gets ugly is we also have a carnal mind. We have a darkened mind that is consumed by sin.
33:47
And so there's kind of a give and take, almost like a balance issue here.
33:53
That the law is written on our hearts, that we're made in God's image. And this law, which is a transcript of his character, is also—we don't see it that way.
34:05
We don't look at it right because we have a sinful mind. As Paul described it in Romans 7, the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh.
34:16
That's right, carnal, so to understand. Yep. And so there's that, that there is a natural law.
34:24
There is this basic understanding of morality that's hardwired into us, that is transient, that is not bound by time, that is always this way, that will not change.
34:37
But in the same token, we forsake that for sin.
34:44
Yes. I think Aquinas wrote that this happens because of selfishness.
34:53
That when we act in selfishness, we actually ignore the natural law that's built into us.
34:58
And I can kind of get on board with that interpretation of it, while also recognizing the problem of sin.
35:06
Yeah. So when we get to man's law, we have that carnal mind that is dominating our worldview and how we formulate ethics, that isn't in line with that natural law built into us.
35:19
That is very much rooted in that carnal mind and that way of thinking that I am the determining factor here.
35:29
Yeah, yeah. So there is a natural law of sorts that we're building laws off of.
35:36
It's just not God's. Amen, and that's – go ahead. We've created a cheap substitute really, a corruptible shadow of – and called it morality, but any sense of morality presupposes a religion and is built on a notion that there's somebody up there who has decided what is good and bad.
36:01
And often with man's law, that person is whoever is just sitting in the chair. Yeah, yeah.
36:08
And again, the issue with Aquinas – Aquinas said this concerning natural law, his positive position on it.
36:18
He said that Aquinas said this, we don't need the Bible, the church or religion class in order to understand natural law.
36:27
Instead, our instincts show us the basic goods, and so there's – in that philosophical ideology, there are seven basic goods.
36:34
But he said our instincts show us the basic goods, and reason allows us to derive the natural law from them.
36:42
He goes on to say this. Instead, our instinct shows us the basic goods, and reason allows us to derive – to kind of repeat that – and reason allows us to derive natural law from them.
36:56
Now, if I were to – and if we were to, Tyler, if we were to take this statement that he just made –
37:06
I mean, you can, with the exception of – he was what, 14th century,
37:14
I think, Aquinas was? 1300s, I think. Yeah. So, 14th century, if we take this 14th century statement and we put it up against Joel Osteen, Joel Osteen literally said,
37:27
I believe everybody's basically good. So, this is the problem with the natural law theory, assuming that it can be understood naturally.
37:40
It can't be understood naturally, right? And it won't be pursued naturally. Again, we go back to what you've been teaching on your podcast since October.
37:51
Romans teaches us that there's no good in man. And so, to kind of – to another kind of a philosophical view concerning morality and ethical morality would be the divine command theory.
38:08
So, divine command theory is a belief that what's moral and what's immoral is commanded by God.
38:17
I would say amen. How about you, Tyler? I'd say at least once amen. Right.
38:24
And so, there's some grounding issues, of course, with natural law theory.
38:30
But divine command theory kind of solves that grounding problem that says every ethical system needs some kind of foundation.
38:40
And, of course, with divine command theory, it's God. So, I guess the challengers – one of the well -known challengers of the divine command theory was
38:53
Plato. So, the argument against – the
39:00
Platonic argument against divine command theory is – I'll get tongue twisted trying to say this.
39:08
Do you know what I'm going to say here? The Euthyphro problem, right? So, it's all about a discussion that Socrates and Euthyphro had on the steps of the courthouse, right?
39:18
So, the challengers to divine command theory ask this question. They say they ask two questions to challenge it.
39:27
And I really – it's like, again, this is like one of those cases where the world – and I'm speaking of those that don't have a biblical worldview for ethics, morality, and everything that comes and goes in between.
39:46
It's like they give us bullets for our gun. And they say, here, please put these bullets in your gun and shoot at me.
39:54
But they say they ask two questions to challenge divine command theory.
40:00
And that first question is, are right actions right because God commands them?
40:06
Or are right actions commanded because they are right? And so, the idea in that is that we've got to choose one of the two.
40:17
So, which is it? And really, the answer, I would say – and you jump in here.
40:24
I'm not meaning to – this is supposed to be you talking, but I kind of want to lead on this. But the idea here that they say, are right actions right because God commands them?
40:36
Or are right actions commanded because they are right?
40:42
I would say yes to both as a Christian. What about you? I like ice cream.
40:50
And I eat ice cream. But do I eat ice cream because I like to? Or do I eat ice cream because I want to?
40:56
Or do I like to want to eat it? I would say that they're very similar.
41:04
They're very nuanced. I think those are complementary terms, that they're two sides of the same coin.
41:11
Amen. That there is, yes, they are good because God commands them. But also that God commands them because they are good.
41:18
According to what? According to his own moral character. Yes. That when God set out to create the world, as Augustine dealt with this idea of the divine command, he called it the divine fiat or the divine imperative.
41:36
That there is – these are imperative, yes, this is how it is. And he's vying for the creation of the abstract, of these things that we can't necessarily hold, like truth and beauty and freedom.
41:51
That those are all rightly defined by God. And because God is good, there is goodness in truth.
42:00
There is goodness in beauty and freedom. Because the one who created them is good.
42:06
And they are a reflection of his goodness. And that anything we create or try to create in this world in terms of legislation or moral codes, if it doesn't line up with what
42:20
God has called good, then it's not. Because God calls it good because he is good.
42:26
Amen. Amen. So whether in the philosophical system, whether it's natural law or divine command theory, as Christians, it boils down to what does
42:40
God's law state, right? And you said it a moment ago, the Ten Commandments, right? Those are referred to as the moral law.
42:49
That's what's right and that's what's wrong. There's two sides of the same coin there.
42:54
So when we as Christians – so as I was listening to your podcast episode – by the way,
43:00
I was up in the graveyard at the church, Mo, and I don't know if I told you that, but, man, there may have been some gravestones got hit.
43:07
I was enjoying that. But, I mean, and that really is what it boils down to.
43:14
So if we as Christians are going to have a right view of government, we've got to have first a right view of God.
43:25
So when we break this down, this idea of submission and government and all,
43:30
Abraham Kuyper wrestled with this a little bit, and he argued for a system he called sphere sovereignty.
43:38
That there's three institutions that were set up by God, the church, the family, and the state.
43:46
And that these three operate in their own little bubbles of influence.
43:51
That there's a certain defined way they are to operate, the things they are to have sovereignty in.
43:56
And that they don't – those circles don't cross, but then the way we understand submission doesn't vary between the state and the family and the church.
44:07
That when the Bible speaks to these things, that we have the same systematic approach to submission in the church as we do in the state.
44:21
And so we do have this notion that, as it says in the King James, Thus saith the
44:26
Lord, which appears like 3 ,800 times in the entire Bible. God is the author of these things.
44:35
So when we approach Romans 13, we do have this notion that they are ministers of God, that God is the author of government.
44:42
Because he is the great king. And that any king that is, is ultimately a sub -king.
44:48
Amen. That he is an authority that is under authority. And that's an important distinction that when we break apart that worldview and we get into other territory, it's often not pretty.
45:02
Often you get a lot of problems because when you take out the center, like when you build an archway, there's a big stone that goes right in the middle of the arch.
45:13
And they call it the keystone. And if you take out the keystone, the whole thing falls down. Exactly.
45:20
So then let's kind of wind things down here then.
45:26
So in our world today, particularly over the last two to three years, there has been this challenge, right, of what does submission look like?
45:43
How is it fleshed out? And what is resisting?
45:55
What does defy tyrants, right? We hear that. We saw that on everything from stickers to t -shirts now, right?
46:04
It's been this main thing. Become ungovernable. That's right. And so let's make this clear right up front that what we are advocating is not a revolution.
46:18
I think you said that on your podcast there. It's not about us becoming revolutionaries and burning down the government.
46:27
What does biblical submission look like according to the text of Scripture?
46:38
And how do we as Christians, what should or shouldn't we do when it comes to defying tyrants?
46:49
Well, let me refer to John Knox. He was often considered to be the thundering
46:57
Scot, and he definitely had a temper, and he could get going. And many thought that he was going to lead a physical revolution.
47:07
They're going to take over Scotland, and they're going to set up a better establishment and all this.
47:13
But to quote Knox, those that obey not the commandments they are given in some sort resist.
47:23
Knox considered that it would be antithetical for him to be in service to the
47:29
Prince of Peace while vying for civil war. And so he made the case that the conflict that the church is to engage with in the face of tyranny is of a different sort.
47:44
Like Paul said, I am of the flesh, but the law is spiritual. There's a different aspect here that we might be neglecting.
47:54
That it's not just physical violence. It's not physical resistance. It's nothing like that, that ultimately when we pursue
48:03
God in the midst of a worldview that does not recognize his authority, ultimately that is a proclamation of God's judgment on a nation.
48:15
That just by us going out and saying, Jesus saves sinners, you first have to realize that government has sinners in it.
48:24
So when we start fleshing out this idea of submission and this idea of resistance, we do have to understand the two.
48:35
The early church, they were called to offer a pinch of incense to Caesar.
48:43
And this was part of them venerating Caesar as a deity, that he is a god.
48:48
So when Peter says to the high council, there is no other name given by which men can be saved, that is a direct quote from something that was said about the
49:00
Roman emperor. That is something that people said about Caesar. And Peter has taken that phrase and appropriated it to Christ, the king of kings.
49:11
And so there was this veneration of Caesar that is kind of the backdrop for the
49:18
New Testament in a lot of ways. So when we come into the first century church and they're being told to offer the pinch of incense to Caesar, it was really a little thing that would have secured blessing, going back to that economy model that if you do this, there will be blessing.
49:40
You cooperate with grace here. But the church didn't submit to that one.
49:45
They didn't offer the incense to Caesar. They would walk by the idol in the middle of the town and say,
49:52
Jesus is Lord. And in that first century, that was pretty scandalous because the church had been very submissive up until that point.
50:05
They lived very peaceably amongst Rome. And with this emergence of this new thing called
50:12
Christianity, Rome was a bit unsure as to how to respond to this.
50:18
Are they going to be a bunch of zealots to try to wage war against us and be like terrorists? Or how is this going to play out?
50:24
But the Christians were very submissive. They turned the other cheek. They did this.
50:30
They did that. And then they don't submit here. And it was almost like the whole country just gasped.
50:39
Wait a minute. These respectful, submissive people all of a sudden aren't submitting on this.
50:49
Why? And so that is what it looked like for the early church to defy tyrants in obedience to Christ.
50:59
They didn't offer the pinch of incense to Caesar. Right. And I think in our day, to articulate it, it's important that we do literally articulate that it is a nonviolent resistance.
51:18
We see throughout the New Testament, particularly when they came to get
51:26
Jesus in the garden, Peter jumped up, pulled out his sword, cut Malchus's ear off.
51:33
Jesus healed him. Peter, if you live by the sword, you're going to die by the sword. Jesus told numerous occasions, one particular,
51:43
Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my people fight?
51:51
But the kingdom of God is not about us. I don't know how to word this.
52:00
The kingdom of God is not about us as Christian men and women burning down the government and everything as we see it.
52:12
It is us peaceably resisting the government with the intended purpose like what
52:22
Paul talked about there and like you described so eloquently there in Rome.
52:28
So when they were told to say Caesar is Lord, they said, oh no,
52:35
Jesus is the Lord. And it's that kind of,
52:41
I think, would you say stubborn is the right word to use here?
52:49
It's that kind of stubborn defying of tyranny because really tyranny is truthfully, contextually, tyranny is about enslaving a group of people, right?
53:05
It's about being tyrannical. It's about being, like you mentioned earlier, when we start like a dictator defying tyranny, there is only one king that we as Christians have, and we are not going to be enslaved.
53:20
That's a bold statement there, but we're not going to be enslaved. Christians need to be determined to understand and to know that we are not going to be enslaved by the government or anyone else because we have been redeemed from this world, though we live in the world.
53:41
I would definitely agree there. St. Augustine was held to a view that I'm persuaded to as well that the only just war was the conquest of Canaan.
53:52
That was the pouring out of God's wrath on wicked nations that were like cooking and eating their own kids.
53:59
We're not there. We have a very godless society that we live in, but it is not.
54:07
We are Israel, and that we are going to battle with Goliath. And so I think the only just war was
54:16
Canaan, and that any human war we've had since then has been at best a lesser to evil scenario.
54:25
That it's been one wickedness for another. We trade one enemy for another kind of scenario, like with World War II.
54:33
It was nationalism versus communism in a lot of ways.
54:39
And the war ended, but the battle remains. But I do think that there is that peaceful resistance that you said that plays into the
54:51
Christian worldview that we don't take over with guns. We take over with Scripture.
54:57
That's right. That we impact the culture. We transform the culture as an outworking of our sanctification.
55:04
That we are being transformed and conformed to the image and likeness of Christ in our heart, in our minds, and in our hands.
55:13
And that works its way into everything. And so ultimately this peaceful resistance that we keep talking about, which is an interesting oxymoron there.
55:27
But ultimately we're talking about picking apart the worldview by just living in it.
55:34
Yeah. And as Christ stated, right, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
55:41
Right. I know I can't necessarily speak for you here, but particularly the biblical stance that I take on this in living in this world is that little by little the world is overcome by the gospel.
55:59
Certainly there are ebbs and flows. There are high points in history and low points in history.
56:06
Obviously we're in a low point of history. But with some of the things that are taking place,
56:12
I mean, really, there's only so far. And here's a positive outlook that we as Christians can have is that there's only so low we can go.
56:23
I mean, if we go so low that we die, we go to heaven. Oh, no.
56:29
Please stop. Sarcasm. The sarcasm, Sheldon. But when we look at history, and that is such a benefit that we have right now,
56:43
Tyler, that looking back at history, we see those low points, but we see those high points.
56:50
And we can say that whether it's been high points or low points,
56:56
God is still sovereign. Jesus is still Lord. Regardless of what happens, regardless of what takes place,
57:05
Jesus is still Lord. So I would say, you know, logically speaking, we're in a low point.
57:13
But, I mean, we're seeing things that certainly it doesn't mean abortion is going to end.
57:18
But with the overturning of Roe versus Wade, we are seeing, I mean, we are literally as Christians witnessing a reversal of a godless declaration that was made by the
57:31
Supreme Court. We are witnessing that. And so despite what's going on financially, we're seeing a moral victory at this time.
57:41
And I attribute that moral victory to the Lord. As Christians, we ought to attribute it to the
57:48
Lord. Because the Lord brings peace, and the
57:54
Lord brings war. The Lord brings destruction, and the Lord makes whole.
58:00
It is the work of our sovereign God that we are seeing in this. So, ma 'am,
58:07
I'm telling you, let's go ahead and book on air right now. Let's go ahead and book another episode for some time in the near future.
58:16
How would you like to talk about Two Kingdom theology and go more in depth on Kyperion?
58:24
All right. What else are you going to say? Right here on air, what else are you going to say, right?
58:31
You remember when you were—I don't know if you did this when you were a kid, but I remember me and my cousin, that was always the plan, to go to our parents with the other one there and say, can so -and -so stay all night, or can
58:47
I go stay all night with him? So that when they're there, your parents don't necessarily want to say no.
58:54
All right. So anything else that you'd like to add in closing to kind of tie everything up in a neat little bowl here?
59:06
Well, I do think it's important the way that this passage in Romans 13 is sandwiched between Romans 12 and Romans 13, verses 8 through 14, that we had
59:21
Romans 12, Therefore, in light of the mercies of God, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God.
59:28
This is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to the patterns of this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
59:36
And he fleshes this out very intentionally in Romans 12. And he closes with, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
59:47
And then he says, let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities.
59:53
And he fleshes that out. And then he says, owe no one anything except to love each other.
59:59
For the one who loves has fulfilled the law. This thing we call the law, those 613 laws, all this stuff about the
01:00:08
Ten Commandments and the natural law and all that, ultimately comes down to love
01:00:14
God and love other people. And that sums up our conduct as Christians is to pursue
01:00:21
God with everything we've got and to love people as God has told us to, to the best of our ability.
01:00:29
And this parallels with the government because it spills out of that.
01:00:37
This is ultimately the trickle down of our sanctification of this new nature that the
01:00:42
Holy Spirit is working in us. That changes the way we relate to work and school and government and politics and all this.
01:00:53
That this is part of the new creature. And so let us love in a way that only
01:00:58
Christians can. Amen. Let us love our neighbor and fulfill this law.
01:01:05
Because the hour is coming when things will be made new. And we will have a perfect government because Christ will reign physically in our midst.
01:01:15
Amen. That's a little bit of eschatology there we could get into, but ultimately the
01:01:22
Lord will have an inheritance of nations. And wherever America fits in that, the
01:01:30
United States will bring honor and glory to God. Right. And the church will glorify
01:01:36
God. All of this will bring glory to God. Amen. Amen.
01:01:45
All right. Well, how about this? Let's close out here,
01:01:50
Tyler, before we stop recording. Let's close out if you would, and you don't mind, which
01:01:57
I know you don't. Share the gospel with those who are listening today. Absolutely.
01:02:06
As we've been talking about, the world is messed up. There's a lot that's broken. Society is broken.
01:02:13
Religions are broken. Schools are broken. Families are broken. Everything is in pieces, it seems.
01:02:21
But there is a God in heaven who has showed us the dire scenario, that we are broken.
01:02:30
And he's brought us a way out through his son, Christ Jesus, who was born as a human being.
01:02:37
He was fully God, but he lived a human life. Perfect life, 33 years. He fulfilled the whole law.
01:02:45
He lived that perfect life that us broken people could never live. And he loved so perfectly.
01:02:53
And he had this perfect peace about him that could only come from God. And he lives this perfect life, and he goes to a cross.
01:03:02
And he dies an undeserved death as a criminal. And the weight of that sin, of that brokenness that has messed up our world, he took the whole weight of that on that cross, and he died a human death.
01:03:17
He experienced the fullness of death, despite the fact that he was God. And he is dead for three days.
01:03:24
And he rises from the grave triumphantly, proving that he had power and authority over life and death.
01:03:31
And he has now ascended to the right hand of God the Father, where he is ruling over the earth.
01:03:39
And he calls every single one of us to turn from sin and turn to his glorious face, to be made new in a way that only he can do.
01:03:49
And I implore you today to search the scriptures and find Jesus, to repent, to turn away from sin and turn to the face of Christ, who is ready, willing, and able to make you new, to do away with this brokenness that has so corrupted our world and make everything new.
01:04:13
Praise the Lord. So how about this? Where did you get that super cool t -shirt?
01:04:20
I got it right here at Here I Stand Theology Podcast.
01:04:27
That is a brand new design, by the way. Brand new design, never before seen, only on Facebook.
01:04:34
Two other people in the world have this t -shirt. Tyler Fowler and David Russell from Faith Unaltered Podcast, by the way.
01:04:46
You should go check them out if you haven't listened to them. They're pretty good. But for our listeners, if you haven't already, please go over to Bread of the
01:04:56
Word. It's on Facebook, right? Bread of the Word? Absolutely. Bread of the Word on Facebook. Like his page.
01:05:03
Man, literally every Sunday, like clockwork, he puts out a podcast that is chocked full of scriptural exegesis.
01:05:12
You won't find much better than what you're going to hear from Tyler.
01:05:19
So make sure to go over there. Tyler, what's your web page, web address?
01:05:25
It's botw44 .podbean .com.
01:05:34
Botw44 .podbean .com. All right. And you can catch Bread of the Word on your favorite podcatcher, no matter what you use, it's everywhere.
01:05:44
So make sure to go out and grab that. In the meantime, we thank you all for listening one more time.
01:05:50
Appreciate our listeners. We appreciate all those who take the time to watch this podcast.