F4F | The Masting of Michael Brown - Part 1

Welcome to another installment of Fighting for the Faith here on YouTube. Today we're going to be engaging in part one of what we're going to call our Masting of Michael Brown. If you are not aware, Michael Brown recently appeared on a podcast to debate the topic of whether or not the New Apostolic Reformation is a movement or a myth, and on the other side of that debate was Holly Pivick and Dr. Doug Guyvet, and let's just put it this way, they did a fantastic job of decimating Michael Brown's claims regarding the so-called NAR.

Well, on Monday, this would be yesterday, I'm recording this on Tuesday, Michael Brown on his Line of Fire program literally went into full spin control damage control mode, and did a program titled Debunking the NAR Hysteria, and went into full-blown Apostle of Obfuscation mode, which is what he does.

And so we're going to start to pick apart some of his rhetoric and his techniques so that you can see that Michael Brown is not engaging in any form of sound biblical argumentation or even good rhetoric.

I mean, he's breaking all kinds of rules and talking out of both sides of his mouth, which is what he normally does. You know, getting him to actually address and clearly define things and not engage in straw man arguments, tough to do because that seems to be his bread and butter.

Now a little bit of a note here, this episode of Fighting for the Faith on YouTube is also part of our podcast. If you don't listen to our podcast, you can find more information about our podcast down below, but just go to FightingfortheFaith .com and find this episode.

We'll put a link to it in the description when we publish this video. But this episode, we actually do a full-blown sermon review of Chris Vallotton's sermon, Becoming an Apostolic People, which was referenced by Holly Pivick.

So in the description you'll get a link to the Holly Pivick, Doug Givitt literally decimation of Michael Brown and his weird claims regarding the so called New Apostolic Reformation. They did a fine job of destroying him.

We'll put that link so that you can hear that, but also get the link for today's episode of Fighting for the Faith, the podcast, so that you can hear one of the things referenced by Holly Pivick in her opening argument, saying that the NAR definitely exists.

She references the sermon by Chris Vallotton that we will review on today's episode. So all of that being said, all of that introduction, we're going to begin our... this is part one of the Masting of Michael Brown, where we're just going to show you how this guy doesn't carefully define terms, talks out of both sides of his mouth, which is why I've dubbed him the Apostle of Obfuscation.

So we're going to go to yesterday's episode of The Line of Fire, yesterday's episode of Line of Fire, and we're going to take a look at one of the things that he did, talking about debunking the NAR hysteria!

The Claim That the NAR Does Not Exist

It doesn't really exist! Kind of thing that he's doing. And we're going to watch one of the things he does, is that he goes after, but doesn't name her by name, Amy Spreeman of the Berean Examiner, in an article that was posted up at piratechristian .com.

Amy Spreeman, we host her blog over at piratechristian .com, and she came out with an article, you know, Six Signs That Your Church Might Be NAR, and we're going to watch what he does here, because this is classic Apostle of Obfuscation stuff, so we'll do a little bit of a takedown on what he does here.

But here's Michael Brown to explain to us how he's debunked some of the hysteria regarding the NAR, and watch the technique.

Let's look at this website, Six Hallmarks of a NAR Church, the Berean Examiner, the Six Hallmarks of a NAR Church, posted June 7, 2016. So you scroll down, and number one is this, Apostles. We're in, quote, a second apostolic age.

There are new apostles on the earth today, anointed by the laying on of hands to represent and speak for God here on earth. These, quote, super apostles are equal to the original apostles, the ones who witnessed Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, and were appointed by Christ himself to the office.

Since these new apostles are commissioned by God, their authority may not be questioned. Frankly, I don't know.

Anybody who believes that. All right, so we're going to note the technique. So he read, you know, what are the signs your church may be part of the new apostolic reformation? You have an apostle who is claiming to be in an office, and he cannot be questioned, and he likens himself and his rhetoric to the apostles that, like, of the New Testament, of John, of Peter, and Paul, and people like that.

All right, so that's basically what Amy Spreeman said, and his first argument out of the chute, I don't know anybody like that. So apparently this is some kind of great argument because Michael Brown, he knows everybody in the NAR, of course, and again, you know, we've got a problem as he keeps talking about it as being the so-called NAR.

So none of the people that he knows believes this, and so therefore, it must be false. Hmm, okay, let's listen a little bit more.

There's no one that I've worked with, including people that were part of Peter Wagner's organization that would be called New Apostolic Reformation.

Properly, okay? All right, so he recognizes and now is beginning to change his tune. He's beginning to acknowledge, well, yeah, the NAR exists, but what the way they're describing it, even C. Peter Wagner wouldn't agree with.

This. I don't know any of them that believe it. If Peter Wagner believed that, I'm not.

Aware of it. If he did... Yeah, okay, so if Peter Wagner believed that, you're not aware of it. My question immediately comes up, if you're going to be debunking the hysteria regarding the NAR, shouldn't you at least read primary source materials on this?

The reason I ask is because here's C. Peter Wagner's book, Apostles Today. I have the Kindle edition. Read it several years ago, in fact, and we'll just kind of walk through some of the things that C. Peter Wagner says.

So, you know, let's get through the front portion of it here. Chapter 1, C. Peter Wagner writing, are there Apostles in our churches today? Most Christians would affirm that they believe in Apostles because Jesus led a group of 12 of them.

However, Apostles are generally seen as figures of a bygone age, like Vikings, Roman legions, Spanish conquistadors, or pioneers in covered wagons. They made their contributions to history, but the world has moved on.

One reason why this kind of thinking is so prevalent is that this is what most of our church leaders were taught in seminary, in Bible school. I know I was one of them, C. Peter Wagner says. The notion that there can be contemporary Apostles never came up in the seminaries I attended, not even as a suggestion.

We were taught that the original 12 Apostles had a singular, one-of-a-kind mission that was completed by the time of their deaths, and that was the end of the brief life of Apostles on earth. Consequently, I graduated, assuming that Apostles did not continue long after the first hundred years or so of the church.

The Second Apostolic Age and Apostolic Authority

Not so, he says. We are now living in the midst of one of the most epical changes in the structure of the church that has been recorded. I like to call it, quote, the Second Apostolic Age. And notice what his historical referent was.

The First Apostolic Age of the first Apostles. Now he goes on, and you know, here's just some of the salient quotes. A growing number of Christian leaders now recognize, acknowledge, and affirm both the gift and office of Apostle in today's churches.

The Apostles have surfaced. And let me go forward now to page 27, and you'll see what he defines as the role of the Apostles. And so here's his definition, okay? And he's talking, by the way, it's fascinating, this is an important quote, let me back this just up just over here, not the part where it's highlighted, but here he says, this is my fifth book related to Apostles.

In none of the first four did I ever offer a definition of an Apostle. One of the reasons is that I was on such a rapid learning curve that I sensed intuitively that any definition I came up with would probably soon have to be revised, perhaps many times over.

Subsequently, however, I've been able to craft a definition that is beginning to stand the test of time and has been accepted by the official definition of, and listen to the name of the group, the International Coalition of Apostles.

Okay, quote, an Apostle is a Christian leader gifted, taught, commissioned, and sent by God with the authority to establish the foundational government of the church within an assigned sphere of ministry by hearing what the Spirit is saying to the churches, and by setting things in order accordingly for the growth and maturity of the church and for the extension of the kingdom of God.

So Apostles have authority to establish foundational government. Keep that in mind. So what do Apostles do? They receive revelation. Apostles hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Some of this revelation comes directly to them, some of it is received together with prophets, and at other times through proper relationships with the prophets.

They cast vision, and Apostles' vision is based on the revelation he or she receives, and note that's revelation coming directly from God. This is extra-biblical revelation. They birth. Apostles are self-starters who begin new things.

They impart. God uses Apostles to activate His blessings in others. They build. Apostles strategize and find ways to carry a project along its intended course, including any funding that may be required.

They govern. Apostles are skilled in setting things in order along with prophets. They lay the biblical foundation of the kingdom. They teach. They send. They finish. They war. They align generations.

They equip. So you're gonna note that... and he even references Ephesians 4 .12. It basically... Ephesians 4 .12 is talking about the Apostles like the Twelve, and he's saying that those... that group is alive and well today.

They've resurfaced. They've reemerged. There are Apostles today, and they govern, and they have authority, and they set up the church's government. That's what C. Peter Wagner taught. Keep that in mind.

So let's come back... and by the way, I mean, this is just easy to do. You want more information on this? Also read Bill Hammond's book on... books on the New Apostolic Reformation and the Restoration of Apostles, and read Churchquake and other things.

I mean, all of these are readily available for purchase and download and reading. Why on earth would Michael Brown literally start off as an argument, these people... this is false, because I don't know anybody who you believe is these things.

You know, and if C. Peter Wagner taught it, I'm not aware of it. How is he a credible expert, a credible person to discuss debunking the hysteria regarding the NAR, when it's clear the things he's saying, he doesn't know what he's talking about?

It's like he refuses to actually do the primary research.

Joseph Matera and the NAR's Apostolic Paradigm

Fascinating. But we continue. If that, I categorically reject it, all right? But I don't know anyone, people that use the title apostolate, I don't know any of them that believe that. So this would exclude every church I've ever worked.

With. So he knows them all, apparently. You know, since he doesn't know anybody, nobody does this. Yeah, that's weird. Anywhere in the world, ever,.

In my life, because I don't know any that hold to that. Yeah, this is weird. Now, a.

Little bit of a note here. I'm a confessional Lutheran, which is a conservative Lutheran, not like the ELCA types that believe in ordaining women and homosexuals and things like that. That being the case, I can honestly say I only know one person, I only know one person who believes that women should be ordained and homosexuals should be ordained.

I only know one. And before a few years ago, I didn't know any. And so if I were to use this argument, you know, maybe, you know, like five or six years ago and say, you know, I don't know any Lutherans that claim, people who claim to be Lutherans who want to ordain women and homosexuals.

So that means they don't exist. You think I would have any credibility after that? No, none whatsoever. And yet he thinks that this is a this is a solid argument here. And some some of the so-called major nor.

Leaders today. All right. I don't know any of them that hold to that definition either, that would go in that direction at all. Here, let's go down to number six.

All right, so number six, you know, the hallmarks of the New Apostolic Reformation. You know, beware of these types of churches. Nor denies the.

Sufficiency of Scripture. Nor adherents may believe in the inerrancy and authority of the Bible, but God's breathed-out Word is just not enough for.

Them. Right. Let me again read to you what Apostles do. From C. Peter Wagner, Apostles receive revelation. Mm-hmm. Apostles hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. This is direct revelation. Some of this revelation comes directly to them.

Some of it is received together with prophets at other times through proper relationships with prophets. Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you're assuming that you're receiving direct revelation from God, you do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

You might believe the Bible is inerrant and inspired, but you clearly don't think it's enough. You believe you need to have an apostle and prophet giving you more information from the Spirit that cannot be found in the Bible.

I would argue that Amy Spreeman knew her stuff there, and so let's see.

What he then continues here. Jesus' sacrificial death for our sins is not good enough. The promise of eternal life in heaven is not good enough. I don't know anybody that believes that. I've never... And here we go, I don't know anybody argument.

Interesting. A leader in the world that believes that. Now note here,.

The two things that were mentioned were people who believe in apostles as an office and they cannot be challenged. There's a name for that type of leadership, by the way. Let me explain. That is called autocratic leadership, and autocratic leadership is defined this way, relating to a ruler who has absolute power.

The Constitutional Reforms threatened his autocratic power. So autocratic leadership is a ruler who has absolute power. He cannot be questioned. He doesn't take into consideration other people's input.

He has total authority. Just so you know, that's what it's called, and there's a reason I'm pointing that out here. So let's continue with Michael Brown's rant here. You say, well, but.

Aren't they constantly seeking new revelation? Well, first my question is,.

Who's the they? Well, the people who claim to be apostles, and of the stripe that C. Peter Wagner talked about, they are receiving direct revelation from.

God. I just read the quote. Who is they? You say, well, anyone who believes they're apostles today? Well, hang on. Hang on. My friend, Bishop Joe Matera, Dr. Joe...

Joseph Matera's Critique of Autocratic Apostles

Alright, now, this is important. He's going to quote a fellow, and this is where Brown will talk out of both sides of his mouth, and I mean embarrassingly so. And here's what I mean by that, is that Joseph Matera is the convening apostolic leader of the United States Coalition of Apostolic Leaders.

This is an organization that was founded by C. Peter Wagner, and he has written several articles over the past year that literally not only confirm the existence of the NAR, but what's really strange is what's gonna happen here is the fellow he's quoting is affirming what Michael Brown just denied exists.

I'll let him.

Spin it out. Matera now leads the U .S. Council of Apostolic Leaders, which was originally Peter Wagner's organization, quote, apostles. Joe Matera said, I'll take it over, but first, I'll lead it. First condition is you have to change from apostles to apostolic leaders.

First change he made. Why? There are reasons for it. And he just wrote an article. This is the man who is leading, so just like leading a network, leading a fellowship of leaders, helping to facilitate, coordinate, bringing them together, okay?

He is leading the organization Peter Wagner used to lead, and he has a major critique of many things commonly associated with New Apostolic Reformation. All right, so notice what he.

Just said. Joseph Matera is now leading C. Peter Wagner's former organization, and he is offering a critique, a critique of many of the things that are associated with or considered part of the N .A .R.

Listen to what Joseph Matera is.

Suggesting be reformed. He doesn't agree with these things. For example, and if you're watching, I can't pull these quotes up for you right now. Don't worry, I'll pull them up myself. But he said this.

He said, the present apostolic paradigm will bring a course correction to the New Apostolic Reformation. Now.

Notice the words. This will bring a course correction to the current New Apostolic Reformation, all right? So Joseph Matera, as the leader convening a apostolic leader of the Council of... United States Council of Apostolic Leaders, is offering a corrective to the way things currently are in the N .A .R.

Notice that, number one, affirms the existence of the N .A .R. But the things he's going to offer a corrective for actually have to exist in the N .A .R., or this cannot possibly be a corrective. And watch what he says.

And view the.

Apostolic as a ministry function, not as an office, as an adjective, not a title.

Mm-hmm. Which means that currently in the N .A .R., or for many for since its inception, people have believed it to be an office. Uh-huh. Notice Michael Brown just said, I don't know anybody, but Joseph Matera is offering a corrective to people who believe that apostles hold an office.

He said this, the present.

Apostolic paradigm will correct the autocratic, top-down, hierarchical.

Government of many in the N .A .R. Did you hear those words? That he's offering a corrective for many in the N .A .R. who are ruling autocratically. Yet he said that Amy Spreeman of the Berean Examiner's wrong because he personally, Michael Brown, doesn't know anybody who does these things.

Yet Joseph Matera just said, as he was quoting him, many rule autocratically. Talking out of both sides of his mouth. Let's take a look, by the way, at a couple of articles. Charisma magazine, Joseph Matera wrote on April 20th, so this is just a few days old, the N .A .R. and restoration of apostolic ministry today.

He says, I believe that the present embrace of the five-fold ministry of the evangelical pastors in the USA is going to bring a convergence between the charismatic, independent, apostolic networks, evangelical networks, and ultimately even evangelical Bible confessing denominations.

The implications of this will be extraordinary. The church will go from being pastorally led to prophetically inspired. This emerging apostolic paradigm will shift the missionary focus from planting local churches to planting movements of churches and Christ followers that will permeate every facet of society.

The apostolic paradigm will shift the focus from gathering crowds on Sundays to developing disciples who will manifest the reign of Christ from Monday to Saturday. Does this sound like something you want to join up on and have brought to your church?

The present apostolic paradigm will restore the church back to the way of Christ and his apostles. So notice the emphasis on the apostles. And so, in Matera's way of thinking, the present apostolic leaders are synonymous with the way things were in the church when Jesus' apostles were here.

The present apostolic paradigm will bring a course correction, a course correction to the New Apostolic Reformation. Clearly, Joseph Matera thinks the New Apostolic Reformation exists, and view apostolic as a ministry's function, not an office, as an adjective, not a title.

So you're going to note Joseph Matera not only believes the NAR exists, but also has noted there are many people in the NAR who are apostles who believe that they're operating in an office. I wonder why that would be.

The present apostolic paradigm will correct, listen to this, will correct the autocratic, top-down, hierarchical government of many in the NAR. He didn't say some, he said many. And Amy Spreeman in her article made it clear that these apostles cannot be challenged, that they believe that they're holding an office.

And what did Michael Brown do? Deny? I don't know anybody who thinks this way or believes this stuff. Yet Joseph Matera has offered a corrective to the autocrats who believe they're holding an apostolic office.

How is that possible? Number one, if the NAR doesn't exist, and number two, if there's nobody who thinks this way. There was another article, I'll put the links to these in the description down below so you can find them for yourself, from Joseph Matera's website, josephmatera .org, Abuses and Blessings of the Contemporary Apostolic Movement.

In the section that has to do with abuses, Matera says this, abuse number two, many apostolic leaders have an autocratic leadership style. Unfortunately, all too often those who gravitate to use the title like apostle, I would include bishop as well to be fair, tend to have an autocratic approach with a heavy top-down leadership style.

They are prone to giving out strategies and commands without allowing a team into the decision-making process. Autocrats rarely develop homegrown leaders and often have hard times cultivating true transparent relationships with their spiritual sons and daughters.

So isn't that fascinating? Michael Brown, in debunking the hysteria regarding the NAR, in debunking the hysteria, you know, literally is claiming, well, I don't know anybody who does these things, so it can't be true.

Mm-hmm. And yet the very man that he cited, he cited and read from Joseph Matera, recognized that there are many who believe that they hold an office and it's akin to the apostolic office of the New Testament, and they are autocrats and do not allow any input and have a top-down and will not allow themselves to be challenged approach to their leadership.

Hmm. Yeah, you get the reason why I think Michael Brown is the apostle of obfuscation can never seem to get a straight answer from him, and over and again his rhetoric is engaging in purpose smokescreen creating, deflecting, and shift, you know, blaming, you know, other people and shifting the blame and never rightly addressing what he says.

And he talks out of both sides of his mouth so close together that you can spot it so easily. It's actually quite embarrassing. Yeah, so let's just make this clear. Michael Brown is now admitting that the NAR exists, but he still considers all the critics of the NAR to somehow be Illuminati-type conspiracy theorists, and nothing could be further from the truth.

And the very things that he denies are happening in the NAR, Joseph Matera literally is admitting are present in the NAR and is offering a corrective for. So whether or not one agrees with what the NAR has done historically doesn't change the fact that that literally is their history.

Michael Brown is deceitful. He is an absolute liar, and I mean that, because you can't be this far wrong and not be engaging in intentional duplicity. And I mean that's really all there is to it. But this is only part one of our takedown and masting of Michael Brown.

I've had enough of this fellow, and I mean it. And you know, if you're gonna have a conversation about the NAR, it's time for you to stop painting your critics as if they're complete lunatics who are like overly exaggerating things that don't exist within the NAR.

And yeah, because nothing can be further from the truth. I work with and am part of a group of people who are careful students of the NAR and cite their sources from original sources and quotes from the people who are in it.

Which is why not only do I know that the movement exists, I know that it is one of the most dangerous movements on the planet, and the most destructive and divisive movement out there. People who are putting themselves under these apostolic leaders are literally risking shipwrecking their faith because of the nonsense that goes on in the name of the new apostles and prophets running the earth today.

And do I feel strongly about it? You bet I do. I'm sick and tired of being considered and thrown into a lump of some weird wacko conspiracy theorist when I myself came out of the latter rain movement.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. And it doesn't matter if Michael Brown knows somebody or not that's in this movement or claims, well I know this person and I can vouch for them. No, it's about what they teach and what can publicly be documented, not what he claims that he can privately affirm or deny about a person, and that's part of his game.

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Please consider supporting us. All the information on how to support us, as well as the relevant links for you to do more research on this are listed below in the description of this episode. So until next time, may God richly bless you in the grace and mercy won by Jesus Christ and his vicarious death on the cross for all of your sins.

Amen.