Hadith Qudsi 36

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Hang an afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. Doesn't look like it's raining or anything outside here. We've been getting some real good rain the past couple nights I mean woke up in the middle of the night with flashes of lightning and It says we good we needed it and I imagine there's a bunch of other stuff other folks that wish they were getting that rain.

And sorry about that trying to get into the comrex stack and it says connection failed. Is it is it not on over there? You're having issues too, huh? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh. Not working for me it just takes a lot it's just moving very slow today.

Great. Well, that's that's and we just had it fixed, right? That's good great. Anyway, I want to start the program today. Haven't done this for a while. But I'm just about to work on this particular section in a chapter.

I got a chapter done yesterday. The book is actually on Amazon. And I'm a little concerned about that. Because they have it listed as a certain number of pages and it could be that number of pages. Um when I had estimated the chapter I finished yesterday, I'd put like 12 to 14 ended up being 31 so I missed it by that much.

Yeah, and So I finished a big long chapters like there is actually a chapter. It's a little bit longer than that is a 34 page beast in there as well but um. It was really sort of the heart of the heart of the book.

And so I didn't feel like we could we could skimp on that, but I'm now working on the chapter on What the Quran says? about About Jesus and we go through all the references to Issa in in the Quran and look at their context and What they say and so on so forth.

So it's I think it's more quote than it is commentary. But anyway. At the end. I'm addressing one other issue and that issue is the issue of Intercession and I'm comparing what is taught about the intercession of Muhammad with the intercession of.

Jesus I.

Think at some point in the past I have Mentioned or read at some point the hadith That is found in various sources there are different versions of it and if you haven't listened to our discussions of Islam in the past.

Well, I can't go back over everything but it is important I think provide some backgrounds and especially in light of the fact that I right now it looks like I'm doing a minimum of three Possibly as many as four debates on Islam in London coming up in September and please don't ask me for the details yet.

We're getting close. But We're not there yet. We're got the days down. We're just getting everything sort of tweaked and once we've got that information We'll we'll get it up there for those of you who are in the in the area there, but as it may.

That's really what my mind is focused upon at the moment and You you've you probably learn you get to learn Arabic you get to learn some elements of Arabic when you study Islam.

And.

One of the phrases that you might want to Learn is hadith could see hadith could see now a hadith is a saying or action of Muhammad. The hadith literature are literally thousands of a hadith. A hadith is a plural form of hadith and The the primary collections are Sahih al-Bukhari Sahih means sound or reliable Sahih al-Bukhari Sahih Muslim Sahih Muslim.

I'm sorry Jami 'at termity Sunan Abu Dawood, etc, etc. This did come up for example in the ongoing Ergen-Kanner scandal because.

In.

The book by Ergen and Emir-Kanner still published by Kregel. I believe unveiling Islam you have in their references to simply hadith and then a number and That's an irrelevant reference. That's like putting Bible 316 it means you've never looked it up yourself.

It means you're going on secondary sources that you you don't have Sahih al-Bukhari sitting behind your desk like I do and you're not checking those things and so on and so forth. And Now a hadith Qudsi is a special kind of hadith That has in essence for many people a higher level of authority because in the hadith Muhammad Mentions something that Allah said to him and so what you have are words of Allah That exists outside of the Quran now.

They're not considered to be sent down in the same sense as the Quran. But obviously if you believe that Muhammad is an absolutely truthful individual.

Then.

What he says Allah said to him would have to be absolutely truthful. So it's it's an odd thing you have these words of Allah that are not in the Quran. But they are perfectly truthful. So it's almost it's almost revelation, but not quite.

Okay, let's let's put that way so There are different collections of hadith Qudsi and in one collection, I'm gonna need to expand my bibliography on this particular one, but Hadith Qudsi 36 now I have The mishkat al-anwar of Ibn Arabi here and that they use a different numbering system.

So this is a this is not that numbering system if you're looking for it, but anyway in Hadith Qudsi, Qudsi is spelled Q U D S I hadith Qudsi 36. Not Qudsi mutato, Qudsi, because there's a D in there Qudsi.

I just happen to look over a channel right as that was being posted, but anyone anyway. Let me read you a hadith Qudsi 36, and I think you'll see why. We're starting off with this because it's it's it's a rather important hadith.

The believers will gather together on the day of resurrection and will say Should we not ask someone to intercede for us with our Lord? Now I'm breaking from that for a moment. Other versions of this particular story Include the great fear and trembling That all of mankind will be experiencing on this great day of judgment great great fear great trembling taking place and That is what prompts them to say should we not ask someone to intercede for us with our Lord?

So they will come to Adam they start looking for people and you'll notice the order here. So they will come to Adam and we'll say you are the father of mankind. Allah created you with his hand he made his angels bow down to you.

And he taught you the names of everything so intercede for us with your Lord, so he may give us relief from this place where we are and he will say I'm not in a position to do that and He will mention his wrongdoing and will feel ashamed will say go to Noah.

For he is the first messenger that Allah sent the inhabitants of the earth so everyone comes to Adam and they say you were the first one created God created you directly and Adams responses, I am NOT in a position to do that.

I am NOT in a position to Be your intercessor on the day of the great judgment with Allah. I can't do that and then specifically you'll notice what it says it says He will mention some wrongdoing which he has done.

Man, who is there? That's turrets and fan flooding the channel with the text of these could see I was trying to click on it I couldn't get to it because It just kept moving up and moving up and moving up and I couldn't find it anyway.

But anyways, I was going who's flooding the channel there. So he's gonna mention some wrongdoing That he has done. So Adam, you know Adam did wrong things and Yeah, this is this is this is the same one.

If you want to find this this is at Iium edu dot m. Why slash deed slash Hadith that slash other Slash Hadith could see one word dot HTML and it is number 36 in that one.

So.

I've got two screens of this now, but I'll go to the one that's more directly in front of me. So Adam will say I I can't do this. I'm not a position to that. He will mention his wrongdoing and will feel ashamed and will say go to Noah for he is the first messenger the law sent to the inhabitants of the earth.

So Noah is the first messenger. Adam is not a messenger so Noah's first messenger so they will come to him and He will say I am NOT in a position to do that. He will mention as having requested something of his Lord about which he had no proper knowledge.

A Reference is given to the Quran at that point chapter 11 verses 45 through 46 and he will feel ashamed we'll say go to the friend of the merciful to Abraham and So they will come to him and he will say I am NOT in a position to do that.

So what is each one of these people doing? They're saying I am NOT Even though these are very important people the first person of the human race. The first messenger that has been sent Now to the very friend of God Abraham so they will come to him and he will say I am NOT in a position to do that go to Moses a Servant to whom Allah talked and to whom he gave the Torah.

So they will come to him and he will say I am NOT in a position to do that now. This is interesting because Moses Did intercede for the people of Israel before God. And had a position of intercession.

But Moses says I am NOT in a position to do that and he will mention the taking of a life other That for a life and then a reference is given to Quran Surah 28 ayahs 15 and 16 and He will fell ashamed it should be feel ashamed in the sight of his Lord and Will say go to Jesus.

So Moses says go to Jesus Allah's servant and messenger Allah's Word and Spirit. Now that's interesting because there is that very interesting text in the Quran where Jesus described as a word from Allah and His spirit which he cast into Mary now There is a the the Orthodox interpretation is that Jesus as isn't actually the word.

But that it was at the word of Allah that Jesus was created Allah just simply said be and Jesus came into existence. That really strikes me as a later explanation. Trying to explain something that the Quran itself does not explain the the text just isn't plain enough to actually explain what that is and it strikes me as a later explanation and Here you have a hadith could see Identifying Jesus as Allah's servant and messenger Allah's Word and Spirit.

That's fairly exalted language, so they will come to him.

And.

He will say Now listen to this. I am NOT in a position to do that. Go to Muhammad. May the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him a servant to whom Allah has forgiven all his wrongdoing past and future.

Now what's different? Adam mentioned his sin and Noah mentioned his sin and Moses mentioned his sin. But Jesus mentions Muhammad sin in that interesting he doesn't mention any sin of his own. All he says I am NOT in a position to that.

Why we're not told. We're not told. But when he says go to Muhammad he mentions Muhammad sins But Says that he has forgiven all his wrongdoing past and future.

Now.

Past and future is weird because this is this is at the Day of Judgment.

So.

Muhammad's already dead there couldn't be any more future sins could there. But that's really really interesting because this is Muhammad speaking so maybe that's why he puts it in this context is That he had at one point in his life received a promise from Allah of the forgiveness of all of his sins.

Which again takes me back to? what Abdullah Kunda said during our debate last year in Sydney when he said that he didn't believe that Muhammad sinned. So why would there be a Hadith Qudsi specifically where Jesus makes reference to the sins of Muhammad?

But that they were forgiven if he has forgiven all his wrongdoing past and future.

So.

That's interesting. That's interesting as well now notice. Nothing is said as to why Jesus is not to do this.

I.

Would guess that the concept in The mindset of Wherever this Hadith originated obviously from the Islamic perspective it originates with Muhammad himself, but there are a lot of us Sitting on this side of I'm gonna have to come up with there's really not any rivers.

So I'm gonna need to go some valleys outside of Mecca the Find out where where it is how what what's the dividing line where? Non-muslims are allowed to be outside of Mecca. That's why I need to find out.

I need to I need to get a map. Maybe somebody in channel can do some quick research and find out. What's the dividing line? Because That's like cuz guess you know when we talk about Rome We talk about being on the other side of the Tiber you know or something like that.

So I need I need something like that for an illustration and analogy such as this. Anyway those of us sitting on that other side of line Outside the Meccans well you can't go into Medina either, so there's got to be sort of a I don't know some type of a dividing line there.

Anyways those of us on the outside looking in not on the other side of the Persian Gulf. That's a little bit too big no but anyway We don't just automatically go if it's in the Hadith the Muhammad's have said it because we happen to recognize that Imam Bukhari and And Muslim and others rejected literally thousands of Hadith Thousands of Hadith and that means that there are fraudulent Hadith and just because you go you you come up with a system and Say well, this is how you know it's it's real.

That system it does not exactly jive with most historical research shall we put it that way.

So.

Just because it says it doesn't necessarily mean that that's necessarily what's going on here, so it sounds to me like Whoever came up with this if it was Muhammad or someone in the early generations know that the Christians Present Jesus as a mediator.

Now.

There is no evidence that the author of the Quran had any idea What the New Testament teaches on the subject of Jesus's role as mediator. The basis of it all the glory of the book of Hebrews stuff like that.

But as Islam would have had Dialogue in those early generations with Christians though there wasn't a lot of dialogue in the first century. I mean you you have the story of the meeting of the Christians from Najran With Muhammad, but all those stories come from the Muslim side and and what the Christians say Isn't if the Christians actually said that and they weren't very good Christians.

They weren't very knowledgeable Christians. It's much more likely that what you have there is that the Christians are being represented as Holding the same views as the Quran attributes to Christians, which are erroneous attributions, but anyway It seems like in that early period there there would have been in some Encounters with Christians and Christians would have talked about Jesus as an intercessor and so Here where Muhammad is being presented as the intercessor when Jesus is mentioned all he says is I'm not in a position to do that Go to Muhammad.

He's been forgiven all his sins. But nothing is mentioned about Jesus sins at all so it goes on from there and says they will come to me and I shall set forth to ask permission to come to my lord and Permission will be given so Muhammad doesn't do it.

Anybody else has said even though Muhammad has been forgiven of sins as I guess was Noah and and Abraham. They were forgiven sins. But for some reason they're mentioning of sin and by the way in the other versions of the story.

Some of them would say I have never seen my Lord as angry as he is today and Because of my sins, I'm afraid as well. So I can't do this go to somebody else that's not in this version of this particular story, but that is in other versions of it and And.

So.

If I recall correctly and I'm gonna have to look now that I think about this because looking at this version It doesn't have it in there. I'm gonna have to see if I'm gonna. Yeah, you see the problem is I'm looking at the bottom of this.

It was related by al-bukhari also a Muslim eternity and Ibn Majah so this story is found in almost all of the.

Universally.

Accepted collections of hadith. In fact, I wonder if Abdullah couldn't would consider this a Mutawattar hadith a universally accepted hadith. I wonder because it's found and if you find Bukhari Muslim eternity Ibn Majah and It's a hadith could see how can you question it?

I wonder.

I'm.

Remember because I Want to finish this chapter tonight. So this is one of the things I'm dealing with is this particular one? I have to remember to find it in Bukhari and See if it's the Bukhari version in fact, maybe Maybe someone in channel who just flooded the channel recently could find a online reference to the Bukhari version.

Because I think it's a Bukharian Muslim version that has Like Noah's saying and and my recollection is I'm going off top my head here. You know don't put up videos about how stupid I am because I'm telling you I'm going off the top of my head here.

And I bet you there's a lot of Muslims that couldn't go off the top of their head at this point on this particular issue. My recollection is that even Jesus says I have never seen my Lord so angry. I know that Adam does and I think Moses does and stuff like that, but I think That even Jesus does in one of the versions of this story and I'd be interested in looking at it.

That would be that would be helpful to find that anyway. That's not found in this particular version of of the story. But Muhammad says I'm I'll go straight to Allah and He will Give me permission to come before him and Permission will be given and when I shall see my Lord, I shall prostrate myself He will leave me thus for such time as it pleases him and then it'll be said to me raise your head ask and it Would be granted speak and it will be heard intercede and your intercession will be accepted.

So I shall raise my head and praise him with a form of praise that he will teach me and so there is some kind of.

A.

Type of worship that Muhammad will be taught now. Let me step aside for just a moment.

The.

It's so great to have an interactive Bot in channel ours is named TurretinFam and.

I.

Made that request and poof. It's just it's just amazing. I didn't know that they could do this so well. But here is and this is Book number 60 hadith number 236 of Sahih al-Bukhari and Yes, this is the one that has all the stuff about anger and Moses might say my Lord has they become angry as has never been before nor will become at thereafter.

I Killed a person whom I had not been ordered to kill Myself myself myself go to someone else go to Jesus so they will go to Jesus and Say oh Jesus your laws apostle in his word Which he is sent to Mary and a superior soul created by him and you talk to the people while still young in the cradle.

Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see what state we in what state? We are. Jesus will say my Lord has they become angry as He has never become before nor will ever become hereafter. Jesus will not mention any sin, but will say myself myself myself go to someone else go to Muhammad.

So I was right. I remembered I've been spending a little bit too much time with the Hadith. I'm driving. I'm driving to church Sunday morning with my daughter and we're we're chatting about stuff and I started telling her about Something that happened in 632 AD and she's just sitting there in the front seat looking good.

Oh dad. It's really fascinating. I realized I'd probably been boring the poor girl off the way to church. I'm writing a book folks and Everyone around here knows every time you walk into my office what I'm doing.

I'm writing I've gotten I've got when you see books stacked up in various states of disorder. Some open with with leather book holders holding them open to this page that page and All the screen three stacked screens three stacked 22 inch screens ones 23 inch screen and my laptop.

So I've got four screens and it's all got all sorts of stuff there. What can I say?

It's.

That's where my mind is and so. What was it? Oh, yeah this morning I was trying to get into a safe into my safe at the at the house I couldn't remember. But I can remember that in Sahih al-Bukhari this story was Jesus says that my Lord's been angry.

But it's not in the Hadith Qudsi version. That's pretty bad. Okay, I will admit that. That's pretty bad. But I need to stay in this state not only till the books done. But then for the debates because that's a good state to be in for the debate I just don't remember where I am when the debates over and someone will have to lead me out of the car and and I will probably lose the hotel key and and Lose my passport and stuff like that, but I will do real well in the debates.

I can just All right, anyhow, so we go back to the Hadith Qudsi version rather than Bukhari version, thank you turrets and bot turrets and fan I'm sorry for your interactive actions there and so anyways, so In the other versions of story there's this anger and there's this fear.

Muhammad doesn't say anything about the anger of Allah and Muhammad does anything about his own sins and He goes before Allah and what I find really interesting is That he's promised that his intercession will be accepted and heard.

But first he has to be taught this Form of praise that he will be taught that that right now he doesn't know but he'll know someday in the future. So once he then Praises Allah in this way, then I shall intercede and he will set me a limit as to the number of people.

So I shall admit them into paradise. So I Shall admit them into paradise. That's what it says. Then I shall return to him and when I shall see my Lord I shall bow down as before then I shall intercede and he will set me a limit.

It's the number of people so I shall admit them to paradise. So He does one group first and they go into paradise. Then he goes back to Allah and he does another group. Then I shall return for a third time.

Then a fourth and I shall say there remains in hellfire only those whom the Quran has confined and who? Must be there for eternity now what is relevant here is.

That.

The people that he's admitting in the paradise are first in hell. Now there are some Muslims that do not believe. That they will go into hellfire. Because look one of the toughest Chapters that I'm I still have to write is what does the Quran teach about salvation because I'm sorry nobody knows.

Um, there are so many conflicting viewpoints expressed. There's stuff about you know. The scales and then those who have light scales and those who have heavy scales but the problem is the vast majority of Understandings of Muslims on this subject are not derived from the Quran they're derived from the Hadith and the Hadith tells different stories about the subject and it's all a matter of.

To whom do you give the most weight? One scholar who strings together these Hadith another scholar strings together those Hadith and you have one slight difference between the version this guy accepts and what he strings that together with and a difference from what that guy accepts and you end up with very different conclusions and Muslims argue about these things all the time.

All the time. But it's the arguments are different than what you hear on this program when I argue with our minions. Why. Because the arguments are not based primarily upon the exegesis the Quran at all.

They're primarily based upon. Well, my scholar my Hadith scholar Says that if you interpret this Hadith this way then it sheds this light upon this Quranic text and therefore. Here's the conclusion. It's very very different.

It's much much more. Like what you hear in Jewish argumentation amongst the rabbis this rabbi said this and he interpreted this to say that. Except there's even one more level of complication and that is at least the rabbis are normally talking about a scriptural text.

It's sort of like the later rabbis who are talking about interpreting here the the Mishnah or the Talmud. Except now it's the Hadith that is in the way so there you go and. So it it's extremely difficult To answer the questions because there are some Muslims say we're not going to go into hellfire.

There's this thing about the Sabah at the bridge that some people cross very very quickly and other people cross slowly and The only way across the bridge if you have Iman if you have faith and some people have more faith and other faith.

Other people have faith, but is that a bridge it goes over hell it does it go through hell. I mean, there's there's just you you there is no Consistent answer to these questions in the Hadith. That's the problem.

That's why I've said when you talk about You know can the Muslims Defeat the radicals in regards to the use of of terror tactics and killing innocent people and things like that. My concern is no because the tools at their there are people who oppose them.

Yeah. But the tools that they're using to do the fighting and the arguing and the debating can be interpreted in so many different ways. In so many different ways, that's the problem. So anyway. It looks like in this one you have four times Where Muhammad goes and Evidently the idea would be the first people that get out of paradise the quickest are those who have the most Iman all of these people when you look at.

Well here let me let me let me finish the the rest of what says here. There remains in hellfire only those whom the Quran is confined and who must be there for eternity. There shall come out of hellfire.

He who has said la ilaha illallah There is no God of the law and who has in his heart goodness weighing a barley corn. Then there shall come out of hellfire. He who has said there is no God but a law and who has in his heart goodness weighing a grain of wheat.

Then there shall come out of the hellfire. He who has said there is no God but the law and who has in his heart goodness weighing an atom so there's hadith Qudsi 36 and.

It's teaching. And.

And so what do you have there is if there is in the heart of man goodness weighing an atom and they said the Shahada, they've made the profession of faith. Who gets out of the hellfire? Only those who say there is no God but Allah.

So the Shahada is absolutely vital, has to be said. Evidently according to this everyone else is, the Quran has confined them there for eternity because they have not said the Shahada. But even then evidently, I mean the only way I can interpret this last section is who has in his heart goodness weighing barley corn than grain of wheat.

Well evidently barley corn weighs more than a grain of wheat. And then the last one is weighing an atom. The point is there has to be some goodness in the heart. Now from a Christian perspective we go, that's mission impossible salvation right there because there ain't no such thing.

And that's one of the major differences but from the Islamic perspective there has to be at least the goodness weighing an atom combined with the Shahada results in being removed from the fire. But the next question is, is there almost a concept of purgatory here?

Because think about it, if you're in the first group you get out before others. What's the difference? Well again if we combine this with the concept of the Sirat, this bridge that crosses over the hellfire.

There are some people who cross the Sirat very quickly because they have great Iman and the Iman gives them light and so they can see the bridge and even though the bridge is razor thin they can get across it because they have much light, because they have much Iman, they have much faith.

But other people have to crawl across because they have little Iman and therefore they have little light and they don't want to fall off into the hellfire. In the same way you have these people and if you're in the first group that gets to go into paradise, due to Muhammad's intercession for you, and there's a fixed number that is given to him by Allah, wouldn't you be the ones that had the most Iman?

That had the most goodness in the heart? That would seem to be the logical conclusion of that thinking. It's not said directly, but it would seem that that is the concept that is there. So you have Muhammad's intercession as being absolutely necessary because we are not told, in this story anyways, of anyone who goes into paradise without Muhammad's intercession.

Now think about that. So here you have in one story Jesus denying that it's his position to intercede. Muhammad accepting mankind's call for his intercession and succeeding at it in removing everyone from the hellfire, who has said the Shahada, who has said there is no God but Allah, and has in his heart even an atom of goodness.

Does that leave the possibility that there are people who have said the Shahada who have not even an atom of goodness in the heart? I would think so. I would think that it would leave that open. And yes, that is right.

It does remind us of stories in the journal Discourses where, now we're going to really lose everybody at that point, but in Mormonism where Joseph Smith is exalted, but notice that wasn't Smith that taught that.

That came immediately after Smith by the people who were attempting to say we have his authority. The people who are attempting to say the second-generation people will often exalt the first-generation people as a means of exalting their own authority, and this is what happens in the people claiming to be the true followers of Joseph Smith in Mormonism and therefore saying that Joseph Smith holds the keys to his dispensation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, found in the journal Discourses.

And that's why I say this story strikes me as being second-generational as well. It has the same kind of language and thinking behind it. That certainly strikes me in that way. But it raises all sorts of issues.

It raises all sorts of issues. For the Christian, as we listen to this, I would suggest—I'm going to try to remember, remind me to do this, maybe Turgeon Fanker remind me to do this, I'm going to try to link to this story, to a couple of versions of the story anyways, when I post the information on this particular dividing line.

So you can read it for yourself, you can read a couple of versions of it for yourself. And I would suggest, obviously, a lot of people come up to me and they say, how can I witness to Muslims? Where can I go?

And there's a million places to go. I mean, you know, I always have said that you want to—yeah, Turgeon Fan changes his nick to Tur-Siri. If you don't have an iPhone, you know who Siri is. But I don't have an iPhone, but I know who Siri is.

So I've just placed a reminder in my version of Siri, which is Tur-Siri, in the channel. Anyway, I like to tell people, look, you need to get a Muslim to be reading Jesus' words in the Gospels, because very often they've not read the Gospels.

But there's a lot of ways to get there, many ways to get there. You just need to be open to the spirits leading and open to rejecting fear in talking to the Muslim about these things. But this would be a good story to know.

You know why? Because 99 .99 of all Muslims have never talked to a Christian who has ever read or would know what Hadith Qudsi means. I mean, a lot of Muslims you talk to aren't going to be sure what Hadith Qudsi means, but a lot of them would.

And I know in my conversations, you know, I told you all about what happened when I flew back from Cincinnati. I know that the reason that I had those opportunities of witness is because the Muslim was like, you've read the Quran, and you're reading through Sahih al-Bukhari, and you know what we believe about that, and it gives you an opportunity.

Look, if you were talking to a Muslim who has read the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin, they've got your attention. They've got an opportunity to talk to you. It works the other way as well.

And especially this story gives you so many different avenues to pursue. Once you've talked about it, you can go so many different directions that it can be very,.

Very fruitful.

The part that sticks with me in this is back in the beginning of the point of Jesus talking about Muhammad's sin. And then you contrast that against Abdullah Konda's denial that Muhammad had sinned. How far can you go with this, given the reaction that many Muslims have.