Pastors Panel Podcast- 11

All right, welcome to the pastor's panel podcast tonight. This is a ministry of truth and love network. We've got Robert Knapp with us. We've got Dan. We've got pastor John. My name is spelled with a small letter.

I don't matter but Jesus is everything. So tonight what we are going to be talking about basically we're going to be looking at two passages of scripture we're going to be looking at Matthew 5 19 and John 3 6 in context of the whole of those chapters.

But we're going to be looking at the apparent seeming contradiction between Matthew 5 and John 3 and we're going to be diving into the scripture going deep. Trying to do some theology tonight. But our hope and our goal and the aim of it all is this tonight that you will Hear the word of Jesus Christ and that hearing the word of Jesus Christ and understanding the truth of the gospel message.

Recognizing that you are a sinner separated from God. There's none good. There's none righteous. There's none. Holy. There's none that seek after God. But the scripture tells us this that despite our sin Christ came and he died for our sins.

That he was buried and that he rose again on the third day. So when it's all said and done tonight, the hope is this that you repent and you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ tonight. So guys, how are y 'all doing?

Doing good doing good. Thank you for hosting and you forgot to mention. You forgot to mention here. I stand theology podcast. Are you familiar with that one?

Not yet. Not important. Not important. That guy's a joker.

So.

So so Dan, what's the weather like up in New York?

Well, it's about 30 degrees right now. We've got about three inches of snow on the ground and We're getting ready for Saturday morning. It's supposed to be 10 below with a high of 2. There was about a foot of snow next week so about business as usual.

So how about y 'all in North Carolina.

We're ready. All right.

Yeah, we're getting ready for snowmageddon, that's what they say here, you know North Carolina. The biggest We've had since 2018 is what brother Brad Panavich said and Brad's is pretty accurate but you know, they're calling anywhere from Six to eight inches up to a foot for us which for down here.

That's a pretty good size snow.

So we're excited. Wow. And didn't Robert didn't you tell me last week that the. That usually by the time it gets to you all that it's. Usually gets knocked off. But man if y 'all get that much I'm scared to see how to haven't even listened to the weather to see what it's supposed to do.

I just get up like a kid. Hope it snowed.

Well, we have to see where it's coming from here in North Carolina. If the system is coming from the north, it's nothing. We get nothing if the system comes for it. And coming from either direction north or south that we're diverting the mountains and we miss what you're talking about there.

But if it's coming from the south, that's when our eyes get big.

Man. Well, let's preach all the gospel we can in case the internet gets knocked out so. So so again guys we're going to be looking at John 3 Matthew 5 in the seeming contradiction. There Robert. Would you like to just kind of give us what's been going on in your mind and tell us?

Why we're looking at this tonight and what we're going to try to. Have resolved.

Yeah, like I was showing you guys earlier as I was working my way through Matthew I come upon Matthew chapter 5 and Jesus begins what he's. He mentions the kingdom and. It's not something that he pulls out of the air and it's not something new.

He's been preaching about the kingdom been talking about the kingdom all through Matthew. And and what do we want to know? We want to know how to enter the kingdom and I'm sure that was the interest of those folks his original audience as well.

And so His comments there in Matthew. Tell us that we.

If you.

If you keep the commandments If you keep the law You'll you'll be greatest. I'm misquoting. Let me go back to it. I lost my place if you're If you're keeping his commandments, you'll be greatest if you.

If you don't you'll be least. But then you get to verse 20 and he says speaking of your righteousness.

Whoever.

Annulls one of the least of these verse 19 commandments and so teaches others shall be called least In the kingdom, then whoever keeps them and teaches them. You should be called great. So there's you know, there's a level a scale system.

That we see there what is he talking about there. And then verse 20 For I say to you and let your righteousness surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees. You shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. And then from verse 21 on and on and on Jesus begins to explain the law.

You've heard it said. I mean he gives a true explanation a true teaching of how they should have understood the law. But he is preaching about the law. Right after he tells them your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Or you won't.

And so like we discussed that earlier too that it's it's important for us to kind of Understand and realize recognizing to know here that Jesus is speaking here About the Pharisees and what the Pharisees have said right.

And in John 3 he's speaking directly to Nicodemus a Pharisee.

Yeah.

Well, and when I read that I was thinking, you know, nobody no Orthodox Christian Nobody that we we attend church with none of our friends that we fellowship with would would ever Agree that we're saved by works.

We go to John John chapter 3 that were that we must be born again that we must be born of water and the Spirit If we want to see the kingdom if we want to enter the kingdom. We go to The verse that says we're we're saved by grace through faith.

It's not of works Less than you man should boast to it. So we all agree That it's we're saved by grace through faith. It's it's a work of God in us something that he does. And then you go back to Matthew.

Right, but so so here when we come into that and and I'll try to quit after this guys, but the it's important for us to Understand how to rightly Divide the word. How to rightly interpret the scripture in the major in the the major.

Confessions throughout church history guide us kind of give us guardrails on this. The the chief rule for interpreting scripture is the this that scripture always interprets scripture when there's a passage that seems vague and Ambiguous and it's hard to understand.

It is likely that in the larger context of the scripture itself That's going to be clarified. But we don't need to wander off on it on a ambiguous passage and make our own Kind of interpretations and decisions on such a thing.

And what Robert said is true. The the larger context of scripture teaches the doctrine of justification by faith alone through Christ alone, so.

I wanted to throw that out at you guys because I wanted to hear from you my friends that I fellowship with that. I want to hear. What you've learned what God's taught you about this verse how you would explain this?

To someone that we know we know what the scripture say and. So, how do we understand what Jesus is doing here? And so yeah, we can we can start there. Because as we were discussing earlier, it's gonna be fun how.

We began in one place. We began with one order. Matthew to John. Or actually John to Matthew. We start with what we know. We start with what's clear and then we get to Matthew and it seems confusing to us.

But what really happens where we're going to conclude is actually flip-flopping. Yeah, it brings everything all together.

So so John Dan, so the question would be this let's say that somebody For the first time is going to pick up the gospel of Matthew, right and they're going to start reading so in Matthew, they'll find that Up to the fourth chapter where Jesus goes into the temptation wilderness temptation, right?

And then he comes out and the scripture says he's preaching repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and So his first public speech is You know the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew's account. That's Jesus first public speech, right?

So what would you guys say Dan John? Robert if somebody came up to you first time reading that and they say see this Jesus is saying that I need to be righteous like The Pharisees if I want to get into heaven.

That's how I'm gonna pitch that to y 'all.

And I would say I would I would probably start out telling they're absolutely right that you you it's it's impossible for you to get to heaven unless The law has been a hundred percent fulfilled in your life and you're all all that have broken the law and all that you don't have a law filled in the life are bound for eternal hell and.

That's and and so I would be very plain and unapologetic now that seems stark coming from a evangelical. But that's that's exactly the truth and that's why then I would take them back to the word that I continue to use is fulfill.

Because I love in the context of what we've read here. Jesus said I didn't come to do away with the law a lot of New Testament people have really.

Botched.

Teaching when it comes to New Covenant versus Old Covenant and and New Testament versus Old Testament that they have said well Jesus came and just did away with all that stuff. Oh, no, he didn't he didn't do away with any of it because if he did away with it Then it would be very unjust for God to bring judgment.

So he didn't do away with any of it. It's still today not a letter of that law has ever more ever will pass away. And so what we could not do for ourselves Jesus did and so I've already broken the law.

I am a lawbreaker. I am I am condemned.

Under the law.

And Jesus is actually preaching the gospel here. I mean, that's what he's saying. Is he's saying, you know, I didn't do away with it guys. What you could not do for yourself I did it. So that's my interpretation of it.

That's how I view it. So he fulfilled it and now he's telling them what he's actually done to fulfill it. He's demonstrating to them his actual actions of what a person of the kingdom or a person filled with him or transformed by him there is a not the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law that's on all of our lives that we're continuing to.

Live those things out from from a transformed heart and life from Christ so that's how I view it man. What do you think man? I was about to say the same thing like word for word.

I'll start to say yeah, I'd absolutely. I'll tell him, you know, you're absolutely right. Like your your righteousness does need to exceed that of the Pharisees and Sadducees. But that's great because we know somebody who has righteousness to give and right, so it's.

It points us to our to the righteous standard of who God is to his law and then points us to the one who has Who's made right for us who did not keep that standard?

I don't like verse 18. I mean, I'm reading the ESV version. It's what's in front of me. I like. I like the the I.

I.

Like the detail of that translation it says. For truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away. Not an iota not a dot. So not he so I think he's even saying not even the not even the Semicolons or the periods in those original text not one iota not a dot of this law will Will pass away, you know until all is accomplished.

Until it's all accomplished, you know, and so. So I think that tells us how serious God takes The law. I mean, it's it's it's very crucial.

Right in in in here to I so appreciate what you said and how you Brought to light the importance of the fact that Jesus said I didn't come to destroy the law. But to fulfill the law and that's what basically in in in any gospel presentation a biblical gospel Presentation will contain both law and gospel.

I said we can't know our sin without the law. Right, and unless we know our sin, we can't be saved. We don't see our need of a Savior. And in Matthew here Robert Christ is establishing the law. He's setting the law up as the standard when he tells the people this in the Sermon on the Mount.

He's setting the law up as the standard of righteousness. Right, whoever relaxes one of these least commandments. They know what he's talking about. He's not it's not something new to them. The commandments in the law.

And he said who but whoever does them and teaches them will be great in the kingdom of heaven Unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees righteousness. Boom, see he sets the bar way up here.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah in in particularly in. Moral perfection. See that's the issue because I mean Folks can be morally good to a point and to a degree. There are some great moral people in the world but morality Will take you'll go to hell on the morality train just as quick as you'll go on the adultery train.

You'll go to hell on the drunk train just as quick as you'll go on the morality train. Morality is not what saves us. What saves us is the? Sacrificial death of Christ on the cross who propitiated God's wrath on our behalf.

So that standard is being set up there. So why do you think that Jesus was speaking? Like I. Know why he's speaking. Speaking, you know in general to the the general Bible reader but to his specific audience there.

Why do you think that he was speaking to them in this way. And John.

Well, they were Jews. I Mean, that's that's the other aspect of it to just don't forget, you know He's speaking to a Jewish audience that is very familiar with the law and very familiar with self-righteousness and self-fulfillment and and You know the boasting and the arrogance and God's chosen people and all the things that comes along with that.

So so it seems odd for us, but there's actually some things in here, too you know, he's reminded them even in the earlier in that passage at the Beatitudes and and he's actually Taken what they've always considered as law and he's actually up in the ante all the way throughout Scripture.

You know that that you've heard thou shalt not commit adultery, but I tell you if you've lusted in your heart You've committed adultery, you know, I mean, so he's taking the law and he's like he's making sure every single one of them That are sitting there in the religious self-righteous know that you're all deeply in trouble you're all Really in trouble and he's really telling them all all of you that are under the sound of my voice.

Because as he's preaching this can you imagine him upping the ante? Where they thought they've been pretty good and pretty and I'll be honest with you when I get to go preach revivals this is a main text that I use because you've got people sitting in congregations that are extremely good rule followers and.

And and we've created our own moral law moral code. Which I believe that Christians do have a moral law moral code that we we live by but not for the sake of righteousness and they've been they've been keeping this code this moral all this even written law for the sake of their righteousness and Jesus is destroying Their their faith in a lot of ways to a degree.

He is a he is demolishing Their security in their works, so it's quite the opposite. He's not telling them to get worse because people that we hear in this would be like We're in trouble. He's not going to work harder.

He's actually convinced him. You're actually in really bad trouble because none of you have kept the law even to the to the degree of the Pharisees Inscribes none of you have kept that letter of the law and I'm telling you if you don't have even more of that You're not going to get into this kingdom.

And so so now they're looking around saying then what hope do we have. And we find Jesus teaching teaching really hard concepts to these people even you know later He's these you know, if you want to enter in to follow me.

You know drink my blood and eat my flesh, you know, he's he's he's not. Making them feel good about themselves. This is this is very Powerful prophetic preaching that is demolishing their faith system.

So that they realize we have to come to the end of ourselves and put our faith in the one that can save us. So man, if I can guys I share with you before we got started I'll do it shortly and the reason this is past I'm passionate about this is For those of you that are listening.

This is the passage that God used to save me to bring me to an authentic faith and that's Because I was raised in very conservative church with the letter of the law of good morals of Purity before marriage and no alcohol and no drugs and no tobacco.

And I had all this list of stuff and I was I could literally go down and make check marks check check check check check I had all that covered and. And so it created a pride and an arrogance and a self-sufficiency in my life and and of course I you know, I was told as long as you keep these rules and you pray the sinner's prayer then, you know You're in heaven.

You're good. And so I made sure sinners prayer check, you know get baptized check, you know, join the church check so I had my Checklist and it created a pride and an arrogance in my life. That was very much a works-based salvation.

I didn't even realize it. And so when I was 19 years old and laying in my bed at NC State University and You know read my Bible as a as a good little moral Christian does. Just because I knew my mama that night was gonna ask me.

Did I read my Bible that day? So I want to make sure to be able to tell her yes, and it's not that I'm my parents, you know. Hey, I'm thankful for that Moral code that they gave me but I did just a lot in order to appease my parents and those around me, but I was reading this passage of scripture and The Holy Spirit just broke me.

I mean, I don't know how else to say it other than he.

He.

Especially the passage it says when unless your Righteousness surpassed that of the Pharisees and I interpreted that unless your rule-keeping Surpasses that of the Pharisees and I thought man I the rules.

But I was never as serious as those guys were about keeping the law and I'm like God. What do you really mean by this? And that's where my whole world turned upside down to realize that it's not my works and there was a pride in me that I didn't realize that I had even greater sin than the guy that was the drunk or The prostitute on the street or the drug addict.

My sin was my own pride and self-sufficiency apart from the gospel. And so God used this passage to make me realize that all the rule-keeping in the world I've broken them already, even though I've said hey, I'm sorry.

I won't do it again. I had already broken all of them and now I'm already guilty and in the midst of that I had to have someone to intervene in my life that would fulfill what I could not do and That's where there was an authentic faith and my life came to trust in Jesus as Savior.

Not not only the one who died and rose again. But the one who had fulfilled the law In the death and resurrection and the power of obedience unto all the law. And then paid the penalty for something that he didn't commit, you know for to book that all he put the penalty.

And so that's where belief came into my life guys. And and so if you're listening tonight, I hope that your faith Is not in works of something that you've done. We've already covered that to a degree, but it's not in the works of Church attendance or something that you've done.

Because all of that's going to fall short. It really is in the fulfilled finished Absolutely finished work of Christ and that's why we put our faithfully in him so I just want to insert that in the middle of this guys and For those of you listening that's I got to share that with these guys before we opened up.

That is such a crucial passage. So so he's speaking to the Jews go back full circle.

And.

The Jews know exactly what he's talking about when he starts talking about the law. Western we a lot of times miss that but these his congregation he's speaking to in his crowd. He's speaking to exactly what he's talking about.

And he's not exhorting them to To actually keep the law. He's demonstrating to them Yeah.

Yeah, the when earlier just a few minutes ago it popped in my head for some reason. You know as Christ is he he is pointing out the fact that it's impossible to keep the law and it's I think it's ironic when we think about what you said the importance of understanding his audience.

Y 'all remember I love Lucy the TV show is everybody everybody's old enough for that, right? Well, what was it when her husband come home. Lucy you got some explaining to do. These guys these these jokers here, they're the Pharisees and the scribes.

They were so righteous that they started writing their own moral code. That's what the the tradition of the elders when you read that in the in the gospel when you see that specific Specifically mentioned by Christ, right?

This was the the oral Torah. They held the not they they they made the mistake of holding the written word the law of God on the same level as they held the oral law of The of the mission and all that and so on and so forth.

So which we see that today and In our time, you know with Roman Catholics, right? You can't hold the scripture and tradition on the same level because they're not the scripture trumps Everything and they failed to see that so very comfort years ago.

He's got he's got some pretty good stuff, but he makes a statement the law doesn't help us it just leaves us helpless. And when you were saying what you were saying there John I thought yes that's exactly where every single person has to be we have to be crushed under the weight of our sin the with the understanding that it is absolutely impossible for a man Woman boy or girl to attain the righteousness that the Pharisees thought they had but they didn't have.

Which leads us Robert? Dan John into the miracle of the new birth John 3.

Can I ask Jonathan. I want to ask Jonathan and Dan two separate questions real quick that Jonathan you brought out something in what you were talking about that if I ask the question this way I think you'll answer several questions that I had and then then I've got a question for you.

So based on what you were talking about Jonathan God used God used Matthew chapter 5 to help you see the law to help you see yourself. So now that you're on the other side How do you view Matthew chapter 5 6 and 7 and this beautiful sermon.

Man, I love it.

Like I said, I love preaching it and and.

And it's.

You know, it's it's a very precious. The Sermon on the Mount is a very precious text to me personally and and so so viewing it.

I.

Think it gives a great evangelical methodology. For the law is is our schoolmaster the law and I think one of the problems in modern modern religion or modern church. The law of God Has not been preached plainly enough for people to see the absolute necessity for Christ to to to be the only way to salvation and so so therefore.

We.

Have to be careful that it's not legalism or that it's not misinterpreted as as what preaching works but but the law is definitely the mirror the schoolmaster that we should hold people up and say now if you can.

You can tell me that you fulfill this a hundred percent of the time. On a hundred percent of your life and never broken one then then I have nothing else to say to you, you know, but. So speaking of Ray Comfort a lot of times he starts there with the Ten Commandments, you know.

You ever told a lie. Have you ever stolen anything? You ever ever looked at a woman with lust and now you tell me you're a lying thieving adulterer. So, but it's true so so I see it very precious and and and about every time that I can get to my bridges and Think that I'm doing really good.

And hey, I'm I'm kicking sins, but or whatever, you know, I mean God Brings me back to this and say look young man, you know, don't you forget you're not the one that fulfilled it. And that's why we still give our praise and glory to Christ.

And so it also humbles me to dust. I mean it humbles me but yet it empowers us to.

So.

So that's how I view it today. How does that answer your question? I mean.

Yeah, yeah and and I think that the question I'm gonna ask Dan will help us answer that question too because I want us to understand how We should view the law now as a Christian. And Dan. I think this will be Right up your alley.

How I'm going to ask this question and so the you're a covenants guy and an over overarching covenant of grace and then you have you know smaller different kinds of covenants throughout the Scriptures throughout the Old Testament.

So how do we view the law? Jesus teaching here on the law in relationship to that.

Overarching.

Ultimate covenant of grace. How do we view the law in relationship to its relationship to the covenant of grace plus its relationship to its? Just throwing out examples. Abrahamic covenant. Noahic covenant.

Davidic covenant.

The.

Adamic covenant, you know. What what's the relationship? with the law and the covenants as a.

Covenant of grace all those things. So you see you just want me to fit a whole nother podcast in this. There is a lot to that. Try to keep it tight.

The.

Law. Basically you want to think of the law as a reflection of the moral character or the perfect righteous standard of who God is. His standard of righteousness his standard of goodness his character who he is who he exists as is Reflected to us in the law.

So when you look at the covenants throughout Scripture you see God's. I'm trying not to say something heretical. There's a bunch of people who love to poke holes in folks.

We've got you if there's a if you if you if there's a hole poke will will slap some duct tape on it you.

Give me that stop leak and just. You see parts parts of God's character revealed through his his covenants. You see his mercy and his justice put forward in the Adamic Covenant where you see. That whole thing where Satan is is cursed.

This is a curse laid upon man and woman for for our sin as humans but you also see directly after that you see a promise of a. Right there at the same time. You see a promise of a seed coming through the woman who's going to crush the head of the serpent.

There was a plan made and then you see the the Killing of the the animal in the clothing with with the skins where they see that it's going to take the death of something. To cover their nakedness cover their sin.

You move along to Noah. Noah has a is a wonderful beautiful picture of Christ saving his people. Christ the ark being a picture or a type of Christ. It's even interesting that the word for rainbow In Genesis is the word for bow like you could shoot a bow and arrow bow.

Look at the bow. It's always Pointed if you're gonna shoot an arrow, I asked my kids this the other day if you're gonna shoot an arrow from a rainbow. Where's it gonna go? Take the wrath. Yeah, God is Amen in his son in his son Jesus Christ.

Then he calls out Abraham says I'm gonna make you know a nation out of you going to. I'm gonna bless all the nations of the earth will be all the families of the earth. We blessed through you. So he marks them off.

Says you were going to live as I tell you and then he goes on for a while pulls him out of Egypt. No fast-forwarding a lot here Egypt. Baptizes them in the sea. That's first Corinthians 10, not just me.

Baptize him in the sea as he came through. Brought him together. Said this is my law live like this, but he also when he's giving them the law at the end of Deuteronomy. We see that he says today. I lay before you.

Life and righteousness or death and cursing. And he says he promises to him he says at some point you guys are going to fail at keeping this law. And when you fail at keeping this law a prophet will come and the prophet will come and you'll be saved from your sins.

So the the the when the law is given he even says you're gonna fail. You're doing terrible. You're not gonna do well, and that's pretty much what Jesus is saying here in.

Matthew 5.

Hey, you've got this standard y 'all acting as Israel and you're supposed to be here not there. But here comes the prophet. Here's the one that was foretold way back in Deuteronomy the one that was promised back in the Garden of Eden.

Yeah, that one's coming and he's going to take the law. Uphold it he's going to obtain life and blessing for you.

When he.

Takes it upon who takes your sin upon himself. He goes down into the grave. He comes up victorious. He ascends to the right hand of the Father in heaven ruling and reigning over his kingdom for presenting eternal life, you know to those who believe.

And. That is how the law mixes with the Covenant that God's promise of a future salvation for the for people who live on on this earth Comes through the what works, but not ours Who'd send us to hell?

But the works of the law. Perfected by Christ fulfilled by Christ brings us eternal life.

Amen. Did that answer your question Robert?

Yeah, I think it's important for us to to have a grasp and Continue to study how we should view the law on the other side of salvation. You know. We talked so much about how it's a it's a standard. How it is something that must be fulfilled.

But but what else is it to us? How does it relate to the Covenants? What else is it to us as a Christian? How do I view the law after Christ, you know. Now that it's it's been accomplished it's been fulfilled.

Someone did meet that standard. How do I view it now? Post salvation.

What's my relationship and I think a good conversation for maybe a later podcast is Is the difference between the Judeo law and the moral law? Because there is a prescription in New Testament of What the fulfillment of that law is versus us keeping the feast and food rituals and those kind of stuff.

There's nothing wrong if someone says hey, I'm not going to eat shellfish I want to eat according to the like we did the Daniel plan one time, you know and sort of. For health reasons, but it wasn't it wasn't a law matter, you know, and so.

But there is there is groups of.

Yeah.

Christians that are like guys, you know, they're they're pulling back to to do the feast and and.

And.

Sabbath on Saturday and I mean a lot of things like that. So there's some people that are pulling into that but. So I think it's a worthwhile conversation in viewing of the law what's been fulfilled and then the law that is Written on our heart that is Christian behavior.

You know. There is such a thing as Christian behavior and husbands love your wives and wives submit to your husband's and fathers. Don't provoke your children to wrath. Or what does it mean to be a Christian father.

And that's still rooted back in The the codes of the law. The code of the Old Testament law is still rooted in that. But again, it's a praxis not for the sake of righteousness as much as it is is what we do because you're made righteous.

That's exactly right.

Honor Christ, so we're not earning our righteousness in this. But it's that we want to manifest what's been given and puted into us. We want that manifest in our lives and then Jesus has given description of this is how you do that.

So that's also where in Matthew it's not. It's not a teaching of when you get on past the part of being fulfilled Jesus is still saying now here's some things that in me in my kingdom. This is how those that follow me as King I'm giving you direction of this is how I want you to live.

You know in purity and righteousness. And so So it's it's how we live to honor him not earning his favor. But because you've been given favor. You've been given grace the most reasonable thing that I can do then.

Say sure, I'll follow you and then I had this conversation and even that it's not designed for our oppression. But it's actually the law is designed for our flourishing and that's a good thing because being a good father and in a good Savior.