A Mega Dividing Line Today Starting With John 17:6

And welcome to the dividing line once again, I'm gonna miss hearing that I thankfully I have the entire song on my iTunes library

But last dividing line for me until really the beginning of March Last time we were talking about that I just sort of off the cuff was saying that it's a long period of time not to be doing the program and everybody starts whining and complaining and and You know, you ought to have this person in or that person in stuff like that, but we live in Phoenix Who's in Phoenix?

I mean there aren't that many. Well there I guess there's some folks They already have their own programs in in Phoenix And so, you know,

I started thinking about it and I thought you know There is one guy in Phoenix and it's a little scary because you know when you start using foreigners you never know what you're gonna get and but I threw the name out and Lo and behold other people

Heard me say that and started talking to him about it even before I had a chance to even contact him because I was actually average do it and and we're just gonna see you know, if you want to come in and you know

You know take some shots, you know, we've we've got a toll -free number and you know some of you little nervous about calling in when

I'm doing the program because I have this reputation of being this really mean nasty dude and stuff like That so, you know, maybe

You know a kinder gentler type person, you know Might might coax a few of you out to ask some questions and things like that so I'm I'm pleased to announce not it's not new to the program.

It's been on before More than once if I recall correctly, right? How many times

John how many times twice two times? Okay so John Sampson is going to be a

Filling in. I don't know what the schedules could be like. I'll leave that to I'm leaving everything to rich and everybody back here, too

We've decided that we're gonna actually have the shows on time. Oh during regularly scheduled periods of time.

Okay Well, that's because he's not he doesn't have he doesn't have a certain mileage goal to make each week

Okay, so, you know, this is just thought we'd do something different for a change You know, the funny thing is whenever I do it on time people

I go. Well, he knows beyond them Well, that's what it's supposed to be Proper British.

Oh, yes. Well, you know and that's one of the problems though Is one of the reasons I thought of John was because with a with a

British accent British accents make you sound so much smarter. That's why

Even Pierce Morgan can sound smart even when obviously Pierce Morgan isn't so so and and but the problem is

John's been here a while now and I'm I'm not so certain about that British accent thing anymore.

I'm you know Dude yeah, and he's wearing a big old

American flag today sitting out there and so You know, I'm just not sure how much

British accent stuff. He's still got going and So I don't know.

I don't know. Well We'll see but anyhow John Sampson will be filling in and of course, we'll let you know on the blog

Well rich will let you know on the blog. I'm gonna be a little busy because I'm heading to Fredericksburg, Virginia this weekend looking forward to seeing all of our friends back in that particular part of the country and I'll be there

Friday Saturday and Sunday morning fly out Sunday for a brief stop and I do mean brief in London on the way to Kiev Ukraine where I'll be teaching

Church history and doing a seminar on Grieving I haven't spoken on that subject in years

Most people don't even know that I wrote a It's almost a booklet It's not a huge long book, but most people in grieving don't want to read a huge long book anyways, so A Really tough topic to address it really really is

I even though I was a hospital chaplain for all I never learned how to address that stuff Without my feelings becoming my emotions becoming engaged.

So it's a it's gonna be it's gonna be a challenge But teaching church history speaking on grieving then on the way back stopping in London Briefly for some time with Justin Brierley to at least two maybe who knows three

Programs on unbelievable and then back home on the last day of the month so it's gonna be very busy if you would if you would pray for the trip and Any expenses associated therewith and especially for my health.

That's the biggest thing. That's the biggest thing I can I've lined out a huge. I mean I'm speaking every single day every single day except one

I'm either traveling or speaking every single day except one so I can do that if If I stay healthy, so your purse that would be

Will be appreciated. Oh Yeah, right. He promised to behave. I'm sorry.

How many times have we tried that he can't it's beyond his capacity What are you talking about?

Sorry, man. Well, uh, you you've never behaved and you never will it's beyond your capacity.

I'm sorry. It's just the way it is That's just all there is to it

All right, yes church history, you know because of that let me I was just you know, it's so cool anymore we have the scanner in the other room and you can just scan stuff straight to PDF and stuff and Cuz you know

I'm having to see in Fredericksburg and a Richmond Fredericksburg Back to rich when do

I go to Charlotte? I don't know how it all works out. But anyhow What Charlotte's in between all that that's well, they're picking me up in Richmond.

What's that? They're picking me up in Richmond They're picking you up in Richmond. Yeah, right. Okay. All right yeah, so you go to Charlotte and then you go from Charlotte to Richmond and then

Richmond back to Charlotte and then Charlotte to London and then London to Keeve and back Hopefully you throw back to is it

Charlotte? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, and then Charlotte back. Oh, yeah It's it's that London to Keeve thing.

I'm worried about so am I so am I you know, how much time do I have? Let's just say I think it's the same airline that that just got diverted by the

Russians Ukrainian Airlines, you know Some guy wanted to got on there and say when you go to the

Olympics. Oh, yes That's wonderful. Thank you very much. But how much time do

I have in Heathrow before then about two hours? That's it. Yeah, I Have to get my wait a minute that wait a minute.

I have to get my luggage Get through customs and get to another terminal in two hours we discussed this that's impossible

That's impossible. We discussed this Well, and and and I must have said that's impossible.

I Was worried you said let's go for it. Oh, yeah Okay, I must have caught you right after a ride or something

I have no idea I'm invincible. No, I ain't gonna happen.

I think and just the walk when you land In Heathrow just the walk to customs is 20 minutes.

That's just the walk So by the time you get your luggage, that's an hour so So I'm gonna be spending one night in in the

Heathrow Airport We we need to have a hotel lined out for that and be ready for Flights the next day and that's gonna be just great

Anyhow Disaster coming anyways

Yeah, I do have to be three hours early no, I don't think so anyways, one of the things I Since I'm doing so much traveling

You don't want to drag a whole lot of in the way of books with you all across the

United States United States in the world and things like that so what I just did is I took one of the sections that I read for my church history class and This one it's

I don't think I guess they don't make this anymore or they've changed name or something the Reformation by Hans J.

Hildebrand and narrative history laid by temporary observers and Participants good resource to have if you can track it down I think there's a new edition or something to change the name somewhat.

I don't know But one of the things I like to read out of this is the part of the catalog of the relics

That were at the castle church at Wittenberg Frederick was very proud of his relics and So Here's here's some stuff in the official catalog of relics at the castle church church at Wittenberg Three pieces the city where the

Virgin Mary was born one piece of a yarn which she spun

One piece of the house where she lived at the age of 14 Two pieces of the city of Mount Zion where Mary lived two pieces of the room where Mary was greeted by the angel five particles of the milk of the

Virgin Mary One piece the tree where Mary nursed the Lord near the garden of balsam

Four pieces of the hair of Mary Three pieces of the shirt of Mary three pieces of one robe of Mary eight pieces of other robes of Mary Four pieces of the belt of Mary seven pieces of the veil of Mary two pieces of the veil of Mary Which was sprinkled with the blood of Christ under the cross that makes it much more special One piece of the city where Mary died

Mmm Mmm that causes some problems with the later theologic well

Rome has never said whether Mary died or not Let's just be very specific about that One piece of the wax candle given to Our Lady when she died six pieces of the grave of Mary Two pieces of the earth of the grave of Mary.

What's the difference? I don't know one piece of the place where Mary ascended into heaven a Silver picture of the little baby

Jesus was a Polaroid. I mean really Four pieces of the city where the Lord Jesus was born one piece of the diaper in which he was wrapped 13 pieces of the manger of Jesus Yeah, I'm sure everyone remember that one piece of the cradle two pieces of the hay one piece of the straw in which the

Lord Lay when he was born one piece of the gold and of the myrrh which the three kings offered unto the

Lord One piece of the city where the Lord Jesus was circumcised Four pieces of the mountain on which the

Lord Jesus fasted two pieces of the city where Christ preached The Lord's Prayer one piece of the stone on which

Jesus stood while weeping over Jerusalem One piece of stone from which Christ got on the donkey Two pieces of the ground where the

Lord Christ was arrested five pieces of the table on Which Lord Christ held the

Last Supper with the disciples one piece of the bread of? Which Christ ate with his disciples during the

Last Supper now, wait a minute I Just realized something that would be consecrated bread according to modern

Roman theory Because when he said take eat this was anyways at least that's how they argue it now

The DDD one piece Oh one piece of the land which was bought for the 30 pieces of silver which

Christ was betrayed One piece of the Holy Land well, I you know what that one might be genuine

I wouldn't be tough to get that Three pieces of stone where the Lord sweated blood one piece of the ground with the

Lord's sweated blood one piece of the stone Sprinkled the blood of Christ three pieces amount of olives and of the rod of Aaron two pieces of The amount of the rod of Moses one piece of the burning bush which

Moses saw They had to keep that one separate from the other stuff let us less than all you know go up in flames

One piece of an object sprinkle with the blood of Christ eleven pieces of Mount Calvary two pieces of the Mount of Olives One piece of the cloth with which the

Lord wiped the disciples feet one piece of the robe of Christ one piece of seamless robe Of Christ etc.

Etc. Etc. Etc. It goes on and on and on and on I think you forgot the portion the piece of the

Brooklyn Bridge of Mary well Actually we could we could discuss the the house at Loretto the idea that Rome actually taught that That Mary's house was picked up by angels and carried to Italy And that you get indulgences for visiting that house indulgences are only given by the keys the the papacy has the power over those things so Can you imagine if Tetzel had?

Modern technology and a shopping cart. Oh, man I Hadn't thought about that Yeah, the modern technology and the shopping cart.

Yes, that would he would have done he would have done Well, you have one indulgence in your cart. Yes Would you like to pay with that with what kind of credit card or PayPal It's the ultimate

PayPal. That's right. That's right. I I told you all on the air that I was ordering this

Look at the size of this beast This is the brand new 2013 updated edition.

This is the quad the Book of Mormon King James Version Bible Book of Mormon doctrine covenants and pearl of great price along with all the other stuff that you need in There the topical guide and and all the rest that neat fun stuff that you sort of need to have in there

Just for clarification that is not one of the relics of Mary No, it may be a relic of the

Mormon Church before long The way things are going There's the there's the big huge There's the hypocephalus.

That's not it doesn't call it a hypocephalus in here But most Mormons now know that well, actually most

Mormons don't know but Mormons who know anything about their faith now No, that's a hypocephalus and there's there's old men and men is still men men's still meaning there and What is it what is it like To be a

Mormon who actually comes to understand the background of your faith now and and well,

I don't know I don't know How much was it? I that was a that was like 89 bucks.

I think I mean, it's huge I wonder what it weighs. I mean, that's that's pushing 10 pounds and I got the full -size one because well,

I can't read the small -size one anymore. That's why well Yeah, this is yeah, here's the old small size one.

So it's just as thick But you can see how much smaller it is See, there's a and it's just it's just the font size issue for old folks like me anymore but they did update some of the

Notes and stuff like that. So I've got to keep got to keep track of those things and and all that Okay, there's some interesting introductory introductory stuff, huh?

I want to Get back to a couple statements a couple issues on the subject of Calvinism and and Molan ism and then later in the program where you get back to some

Urgent Cantor stuff too, so I Let's see here that no, that's not the one.

There we go Sunday at at PR BC I Have been very slowly teaching through there's supposed to be a synoptic

Gospels, but I've decided to throw all of John in so it'll be entire gospel studies and and So we're in John 17 right now.

And once we're done with that, then we get into the really tough part which is where you have to deal with the

Crucifixion narratives and things like that. It's gonna take some serious Serious work really at that point but John 17, of course is so rich that we aren't going very fast

And I'm not sure I did a verse on Sunday to be honest with you but Just because there's so much and I Started talking about something that I I really believe is

So important that I wanted to spend some time on the program today and communicate it to our beloved listeners and viewers anymore as well

I was Addressing the fact that in John chapter 17, and I guess anymore

When I do this rich pie goes, okay, dude, why aren't you?

showing us what you are actually doing here, but there's accordance and Basically I was looking at this particular text and I'm not sure how you want to do this, but I still have red letter on this.

I normally turn that off, but I guess it in here Notice verse 6 of John 17, I have manifested your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world

They were yours and you gave them to me and they have kept your word Now Notice I did briefly mention this the difference between the

NASB and ESV Notice the NASB. I have manifested your name to the men Whom you gave me and ESV says

I have manifested your name to the people Whom you gave me now the the

Greek term onthropois is right there That is a masculine noun.

It normally means man or men But Obviously in this particular context you could very much limit

What Jesus is saying to the twelve disciples who were men But Then you have to ask the question

Were these the only people? that Jesus had manifested The father's name to that had been given to Jesus out of the world

I think you could argue pretty Strongly that the women who were at the foot of the cross

Would also be included in this first generation So I mentioned the fact that you know here you have one of those questions about The role of gender in translation and and all the rest that kind of stuff

I'm not gonna spend too much time on that right now, but Did want to mention that in in passing

But the point was if you look at this verse, I've manifested your name to the men whom you gave me

And then notice what it says Eck to Cosmo out of the world

They were yours Literally yours they were and To me you gave them and Your word they have kept so There's so many different threads of The story that has been woven by John that come together in the 17th chapter and What I spent some time on and I I don't know if I communicated

Clearly enough to the folks in the Bible study class why I was so concerned about this and why

I felt it was so important for them But it really lays on my heart when

I see people Sometimes they'll come into our chat channel

That kind of thing they'll send in emails. I'll see things on Twitter and Some attack on the faith

Well, you know I mentioned this thing on Fox News last week Camelbones Demonstrating the

Bible to be an error. Well, we have a Fellow and channel a Hebrew student that Very shortly after that, you know post all this stuff from his own notes about how back far back

Camelbones have been found all the way back to the days of Abraham You know, he just blew it out of the water with just from his own notes. It was pretty simple to do but most of us don't have access that kind of information and If we really wanted to get into it

We'd have to do a fair amount of research and and wouldn't even know necessarily where to look all the time but what will concern me is

I will see folks and they they run into something like this and They are disturbed

They're disturbed very quickly and they need a quick answer You know, they'll come running in a channel.

Hey, what about this? And if it's a really slow time and there aren't a lot of people posting, you know, they can become very frustrated

I Need to know what the answer this is right now as if the dating of camel bones in in 2014 could determine the truthfulness of The resurrection of Jesus Christ in the entire

Christian Church Well, it's it's all connected. Isn't it? Well suppose in a sense, but First is the modern idea

That you need something right now Google theology is rarely

Rarely going to be satisfying theology Google theology is

Rarely going to be deep It's rarely going to be rich. It is by its very nature

Something that is suspect on those levels Unfortunately the young generation the generation that's grown up with microwave ovens and The internet and all the things that just make things go so fast

Don't realize what those of us from earlier generations Should realize and maybe have forgotten.

I was I was listening to and I told the Bible study classes, too one of the programs we're gonna do on unbelievable is

With the author of a book that's number one in the Calvin section on Amazon right now

Young restless and no longer reformed and I I mentioned this last time on the program and In Reading I read that book and then on the next ride that I did.

I happened to read Calvin's Book on divine providence, which was actually a response to a former friend and disciple of his

Castelio And when you and the interesting thing was Calvin Repeats all of Castelio's arguments he republishes so everyone can read this is what

Castelio has said and here is how I respond and I couldn't help but thinking about how different that was from Patrick Madrid and envoy magazine many many moons ago when they did that hit piece on me and Wrote an entire response to an article

I wrote for the CRI journal on the Council of Nicaea Ignoring what I actually said about the Council of Nicaea and focusing upon a single footnote

But never once giving a reference to anybody so they could look out for themselves interesting contrast how

Calvin was willing to repeat everything Castelio said And then refute it so anyway, one of the things that struck me as I was listening to the the introduction to that book

Was the amount of time that passed Between each round of this discussion now.

I've had discussions with people we've had For example, I I guess I forgot here

Where did where did chrome go oh There it is

I don't have hootsuite up so I but I've had a few discussions It's tough to do, but I've had a few discussions in Twitter now at Twitter is the worst example of this it is

It is Pretty much instantaneous and extremely limited as to the depth into which you it is the very essence of High speed modern communication now, there's some advantages to that at times

There are some advantages like I said, I learned about the the tsunami in Japan on Twitter and Saw coverage of it on Twitter before I did on TV So that's okay but it has some real disadvantages some real disadvantages and As I listened to the the timing in the

Castelio Calvin discussion, I realized sometimes a year would pass Now part of that is because you couldn't sit down a word processor and You know rip something out

It's still amazing to me the amount of literature that the reformers or anybody else produced. I mean 600 volumes of origins materials without a word process

Now, of course, I'd say 99 .87 % of that is utterly irrelevant, but you know waste of papyrus, but hey, you know

It's still produced a huge amount of stuff Far more than most of us ever do even with all our technology partly

I think because we don't think nearly as deeply as they did anyway So the the speed at which we engage in conversation

I think is often extremely negative and results in a a shallowness

That Does not does not service it does not service

In other words, you know, if someone posts something on YouTube about me Precinct I've got you. Well, when do you respond?

When do you respond? When do you respond? you know two days later three days later as If the speed with which you respond determines whether you're truthful or not if it takes you a whole year to respond

Well, you just you just must have been completely wrong No Might be a whole lot of reasons

Well the most important being you want to make sure that you respond appropriately thoroughly and truthfully maybe often unlike your opponent

But that kind of shallow thinking bad thing bad thing, but here's

More of what I was what I was going for when you look at John 17 6 you have the manifestation of the father's name

You have the men whom the father Gave me out of the world. So you have the sovereignty of God they were yours so God's absolute sovereignty over the elect there is a personal relationship of ownership

Between the father and the elect sound familiar You know what Peter says, you know

You gave them to me inter Trinitarian Salvific soteriological

Manifestation there Out of the world the whole issue of cosmos in John the meaning of cosmos so often handled in such a shallow

Fashion and then the result of this divine action is they have kept your word not this isn't it's they have kept your word

Therefore you gave them to me that's backwards that synergism that's backwards all these threads

Which we've seen in John 6 we've seen in John 8 we've seen in John 10 Actually, I just went through I went started at John 5 went through every single chapter just off top my head in the class

This is relevant. This is relevant. This is what's the point all these different threads?

that are now woven together in this one high priestly prayer and I the older I get and the more experience

I've gathered over the decades now of Interacting apologetically very thankfully teaching in the church not always debating

Not always engaging in just a controversy Putting all of that together with the limited intellect that I have

I am struck by the importance of trying to Encourage you the listener this program

To strive For what I might call a pan canonical view of truth

We in the West Tend to think in very discreet packets

A lot of us are bothered by the way that the Bible is given to us the Bible has been given to us in this this narrative

It's very messy God works the people of Israel, and it's very messy there's all sorts of apostasy and sin and then restoration and well sin and judgment then restoration and then

Period of blessing and then degradation and then sin and just repeat repeats over and over again.

It's very messy it's it's not we can't come to the Bible like we come to a

Computer manual or we come to the table of contents and go okay

I want to read on this and you click on that and and Voila you've got everything that you need on that particular subject right there.

That's that's not it's not how the Bible was written That's not that's not the mindset of the authors of Scripture either, but we tend to come along and What we focus upon when we look at the fabric, you know

I've got a one of these microfiber cloths here for you know Cleaning your glasses and stuff and you can it's so fine

You can you can barely even see a thread in there. You can see at the edges. You can see where they are there

But In most threads like like well This shirt, you'll notice a little wrinkled.

Sorry. It just came in the mail. Thank you guys at The European Biblical Training Center. I had to stop at the post office

I've got this, you know, those really annoying notes at the house. You weren't here So you're got to come to the post office to get this.

Yeah, okay Thankfully, they were moving really quickly at the post office and I get this thing is from Germany and I'm like But some of you may remember when

I interviewed the guys from EBTC That they mentioned That Christian Anderson mentioned.

Did you get the the gray shirt? I said no, I didn't know what gray shirt

Hey Here it is. It arrived just today. So I decided I had to work You can't pricey.

Well, I don't know it is high -def, but I can see the threads in In this particular fabric and there's black threads and white threads which makes for a gray shirt

Now I don't see any places even in a new shirt Sometimes you'll have that where there's a unfinished thread someplace that happens very frequently.

Ah, there's Always around a buttonhole, right? Mm -hmm. Yeah, there's one separated thread in In the buttonhole right there.

Very very very common, obviously our tendency is To focus upon the threads we focus upon a particular subject

And we want the Bible to just talk about that one subject Rather than looking how that subject has been woven together into the fabric of divine revelation

The problem is It's next to impossible for me to look at any one of these threads outside of the context in which it exists in the fabric and The context in which it exists.

Many of these threads are white, but this shirt isn't white Many of these threads are black, but the shirt isn't black

So the context in which the threads are found is part of the

Overall meaning of the thread we sometimes tear these things apart and we start looking really carefully at each individual thread

And there's a place for that. I mean, I'm not saying there's not a place for In -depth exegesis and close examination of words and syntax and oh,

I'm that's all that's very very important, but we can't stop there We have to see the beauty of how redemption and atonement and covenant is

Woven all through this thread in different colors and different shades

And that does require us to have well What more knowledge the Bible than most of us are comfortable in claiming for ourselves, especially in the

Old Testament But when we strive for that and You can see what

I really believe that that once you get to like Hebrews and you start seeing how these things are tied together here in the

Revelation of Jesus and we see all these threads coming together that that go all the way back

Into the Old Covenant and all the way back to the garden itself And you can look back and you can see the hues and the colors in there

They're being they're being woven together by God in one particular Fashion into one beautiful tapestry of time that he has promised to us that from heaven when we look down upon this

We will see the very glory of God In a way that we cannot see it now

In a way, we cannot see it now now

When people start trying to pick the threads apart You know look at this look at that You have to see it all as it relates to one another there has to be patience

And so I'm not saying that the date of camel bones is not relevant.

It is But if we have patience The proper mature response of a

Christian that Fox News story Is not to do with the alt what the ultra fundies do which is to say well

That's what you get for listening to Fox News you pagan Turn it all off.

We can't no no we can't expose ourselves that stuff separate from the world No, that's that's not how you do it

That's the commune mentality. That's the monastery mentality build a wall. Let's not even think about that stuff, but on the other side.

It's not The whole faith is all about an answer right now the the mature response

Would be to recognize That when someone writes when some Christian scholar Writes response that story and provides counter documentation and counter evidence

Fox News won't even mention it You will have to dig it out from some source somewhere in a footnote of an obscure book that cost you ten times more than it should have because it had such a small press run there should be a maturity and a patience and Maturity and patience and didn't sell a lot of books, but sort of important sort of important really is and I I honestly think that this idea of the fabric of Divine truth seeing how all of God's truth relates to one of that is so foreign to many evangelicals because when you when you challenge people to bring what they believe about God over here and Providence here and and You know salvation here and the

Bible here and the church here and actually bring it together Into one whole see how it weaves together.

That's when people start getting really really Nervous, I don't like that because so often those threads don't go together because they're not consistent in their beliefs

And what's really bad is when you weave into the fabric of Christian truth that which

God has not provided to you so when human tradition is

Woven into the fabric of Christian truth Well, it's ugly it doesn't function it doesn't work

Which is why we have to affirm things like sola scriptura and we have to be constantly reminding ourselves of Semper Reformanda always reforming because we all have blind spots every single one of us and And we patch those areas with tradition, that's what we do with it

That's what we do with it. So just some thoughts

There's so much more to be said but Strive for a

Broad Biblical deep fabric of truth understanding of the

Christian faith rather than the patchwork quilt That so often substitutes for that in Western Christianity, especially because of our mindset

Now I'm not saying well Eastern Christianity has a right there because they don't do that. They don't but unfortunately large majority of the folks in the

East especially in Orthodox churches have been so cut off from sola scriptura and so enmeshed in In the elevation of Tradition as found in liturgy to the highest authority that there is no possibility for Semper Reformanda at all and the cloth

Becomes corrupted no matter what We'll never see the full beauty until eternity itself, but our goal in this life should always be to seek to not introduce into God's truth

Anything other than thus saith the Lord and that's that's a high calling for all of us now, um,

I am going to go back up here and I wanted to address

I Want to read something that we've made reference to a couple of times in our listening to the

William Lane Craig Paul Helm thing Do you want this? Do you want what

I'm about to read I suppose I can I suppose I can give it to you Yeah, that should be that should be it right there

I don't know But oh

Look Clem doesn't understand why grandpa on the screen isn't talking back to her.

I'm sorry Clementine Did you all see the picture that I posted of Clementine in her little her little winter hat in the oh man

That was hi Clementine. Hi, honey. Oh, you're so cute. I really can't see you, but I'm just predicting anyways

What's that That would require me to To That would require me to know how to get to my scent

My up my scent tweet there it is. Okay.

All right. You're the one that said this Except it doesn't see

Okay, I'll get back to it here window and Chrome there it is

I'll move this out of the way You got it Actually, I actually posted that on Twitter as Clementine rejoices upon hearing that there's going to be a mega

DL today at 5 p .m. Eastern Standard Time, but I'm sure that's not why mom said that she was

That that was the only shopping cart left Because everybody was stocking up because of the of another snowmageddon in Atlanta And so they went they went shopping for for food, and there's there's

Clementine enjoying her Her ride and notice. She's a little bit short to reach the pedals a little bit short to reach the pedals there, but so anyways so I'll go back to Safari there anyhow

Thank you for for pointing out that grandpa could show off the little grandchild there, but Here is

Up on this screen whether it's on the screen and got not right now. I don't know this is

Let's see what the date on this was Well alright, let's just go the original Did you eat did you eat

Q &A number 239? Molinism and the soteriological problem of evil once more is there a date down here at the bottom

I? Know not see a date on this Don't see it anywhere, but that's okay

That's all right all right, so This was the

Issue this was the particular Responsibly I'm a

Greg Lane Craig that many of us have focused upon in regards to our warnings about what we believe to be the the very non biblical human philosophy of Molinism and I wish it had come out a little bit more clearly in the

Craig Helm discussion It comes out somewhat, but this kind of clarity wasn't experienced that point

Let me just read these two paragraphs now you ask why create Fred in the first place Here's the real nub of the issue.

I think and while you find my hypothesis unattractive you think God could have just led left Fred out

That's not true if my hypothesis is correct there may be no world feasible for God involving universal freely embraced salvation

Which comes without other overriding disadvantages? Sure God could have refrained from creating

Fred or both Fred and Sophie But then the resulting world might have even been worse or at least no better The hypothesis is that God has done the very best he can

Given the true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom which confront him now. There's There's the more philosophical way of stating

The real problem from my perspective, and why I don't believe any Calvinist could ever be a

Molinist should ever embrace any of this Human philosophy the hypothesis is that God has done the very best he can

Given the true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom which confront him in other words given the content of middle knowledge

Which does not come from God it does not come from his decree

It does not come from his ordering of the universe. It does not come from his creation of free creatures

Somehow what free creatures that God has not ordained to create Will do in any circumstance in a world.

He has not decreed to create can somehow be known and That becomes the restraining

Factor in What God can and cannot do? Your claim that there are an infinite number of beings

God can create who would freely accept the gospel without somebody else rejecting It is guilty the same error you alleged earlier namely

Speaking without a context suppose there that for any possible person there may be Circumstances into which he would be freely saved without someone else being lost

It doesn't follow that there is a feasible world in which every person would be freely saved without someone's being lost

Where the relevant circumstances may not become possible Your pun on Sophie's choice a choice between two bad options reveals

Do you haven't yet grasped the theory of middle knowledge for God doesn't create?

Such a choice for himself This is okay.

Here you go You middle knowledge proponents if you want to throw Bill Craig under the bus He's your hero, but if you want throw him in the bus fine, but here's here's the issue

Here is he's the main person pushing this so don't get mad at me when I respond to his position and not yours

All right This reveals you haven't yet grasped the theory of middle knowledge for God doesn't create such a choice for himself

The counterfactuals of creaturely freedom which confront him are Outside his control he has to play with the hand he has been dealt that to me is the fundamental

Objection to any Christian embracing

Molin ism because no matter what else you say These counterfactuals of creaturely freedom

Have an origin outside of the free will of God They have an origin outside of God himself

He is confronted That's the term the previous the previous paragraph the the counterfactuals of creature freedom which confront him

Where they come from as I've said,

I think it is a naive Grossly unbiblical.

I mean, I I almost think that's just outside the realm of debate that the best that Molinus can do is say well, you know if You know

Sodom Gamorrah had received the light and then you know, they come up with it There is no way that any there is no

Molinist That can arrive at Molin ism utilizing the same hermeneutical principles that you use to defend the resurrection

The deity of Christ the Trinity or justification by faith Given given

Can't even argue that one. It's just a given You've got to use a completely different set.

Don't you if you're honest, you'll say yeah, I guess and if you're really honest

You'll say Molin ism isn't derived from scripture I've heard Bill Craig say that He says it's a possible reading

But that's not really where he's getting it from obviously So aside from this being unbiblical the reason a

Christian Should never embrace this is because of what's being said right here the counterfactuals of creaturely freedom

Which confront him are outside his control. He has to play with the hand. He has been dealt Why do people do what they do?

How can it be possible to know what a free creature will do in any given circumstance?

First of all, it is naive biblically to think that a person will always do

The same thing in a particular circumstance, I don't I Don't It's morning.

I was on a ride Time wasn't wasn't helping me a whole lot because I Got into the

North Valley and there's a bunch of wind up there that we didn't have down here It's really interesting. You know far enough and wind patterns change radically and I was just getting

Beaten by a wind straight out of the north northeast. It was just and I was going north. So I was well So it was taking me longer to do it now.

I was coming back real fast, but going out was tough and If you're going uphill with a wind in your face, it really stinks.

Anyways As I'm coming back I'm sitting here There's two ways

I can come back and they are almost identically equidistant They're almost identically equidistant and there's one point on Norterra Parkway 27th

Avenue, whichever whatever is called there We've got to make a choice Either go turn right keep going straight.

That's gonna determine which way you end up going back and It was six one half does the other

Now I turned right There was no particular reason at all.

Well, I turned right or I could have just stayed left and The next time I might go left the idea that there is some

Counterfactual that is that delimits God's capacity to to create a particular world

Based on whether I'll go right or left is absurd to me. It's absurd to me on many levels because I can go either direction and Let's say

I go left and get run over by a car and I go right and I don't That will impact the rest of the course of that particular world

Now God is somehow limited by this but even more even more than that even more than that the fact that it really does not protect libertarian freedom at all and most

Arminians recognize this even more than that is this fundamental issue and that is what we're being told is that this

Essence of middle knowledge the content of middle knowledge does not flow

From God's perfect knowledge of himself because it's between that And it does not flow from his decree to create those free creatures

So where does it come from? There is something that now exists in this universe that does not flow from the creative act of God and By its very existence it delimits

What God can do so Craig's hypothesis is that God has done the very best he can given the true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom which confront him

He has to play with the hand. He's been dealt Those counterfactuals of creaturely freedom which confront him are outside his control.

He cannot change them and So there are certain worlds. He cannot actuate They're beyond the

Molinus God's capacity and I say

I Say what my systematic theology teacher said at Fuller Theological Seminary many moons ago

He was an interesting fellow very interesting fellow at least he gave me freedom to stay the stuff.

I wanted to study But He also happened to be fascinated by process theology.

He wasn't a process theologian, but he was fascinated with process theology I suppose it was good that he gave us a very accurate presentation of process theology um

But what he would do is he would give the positives and the negatives and so he goes through and introduces process theology and explains

It to us and and all the rest of stuff. I'm senior going you're kidding me, but you know, I was a good student So I'm listening and I'm okay.

All right, and then he gets the negatives He says now obviously the most the most obvious negative of process theology

Is the fact that the God of process theology looks nothing like the God of the Bible Which I appreciated greatly

I appreciated greatly and My statement would be the God of Molinism looks nothing like the other

Nothing like you will not get that God from the pages of inspired scripture, you just won't

At Best it becomes a crutch so that you can avoid Affirming a full -orbed biblical teaching on the subject of the sovereignty of God At worst it becomes the gateway through which someone abandons all hope

That the scriptures are sufficient to actually tell us who God is and how he relates to man in time So there's some thoughts on that at the top of the hour, let's go ahead and take a break you're ready.

Okay good You've been ready. You've got you've got video to play

Well, you got video commercials now. Those would be sort of fun But we haven't produced any video commercials

Huh? Sound with the website you put something together Sort of so everyone should be really excited to So so they shouldn't run to to the bathroom or make popcorn during the break.

They they need to be watching. Okay. All right But what if they're only listening? Are they gonna feel left out?

They will you didn't you said that without the slightest bit of hesitation or sympathy.

I just wanted to mention that I'm the one that's been sympathetic toward the people who just listen.

So that's sort of sad. Anyway. All right Well, I'll tell you what. It's pretty much top of the hour.

Why don't we? Why don't we take a break and I won't get to see what you're doing, but but that's a that's okay

Well, we'll live with that. Let's take a break. We'll be we'll be right back Answering those who claim that only the

King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a

o min org Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his

Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omin org.

Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you And some more gray level there for us getting us back into the second hour of a mega edition of the dividing line

Don't know what we're gonna be looking at later in in the week, but the it is sort of fitting

To have the British invasion right now because it was what 50 years ago. Was it 50 years ago,

John? The Beatles was that 50 years ago and how old you oh

You missed it. You missed it. I'm sorry. I've been noticing the Beatles are looking a little sad these days. What's left of them anyways

Thanks, sir. Thanks the water there. I appreciate There's there's John Samson everybody

He's just watching to see how we do all this stuff even though he's been here before but now he's watching the

Man who really controls things? I'm just a figurehead. I don't do anything I just sit here and yammer away and go.

Oh you want me to do that? Oh, you want to do that? okay, all right, and so hmm, you know,

I had a Thing of water in here I Tried to drink it during the break and now

I understand why that little girl in signs would not finish the water It can get stale.

It really can get stale. It tasted really bad. That's why I asked for some fresh water because it and of course

Then you need to have water all over the place so you can smack it all over aliens and eat them alive like something

In a movie. Anyhow, oh, oh no. I mentioned oh, no

Here comes a James Ock post now I'm sorry, but I woke up this morning.

I woke up this morning to a Twitter conversation. I wonder if I can find it It was yeah.

Okay. Here's yeah, there it is. There it is. There's a Twitter conversation and I've blocked

Quote -unquote, dr. Ock. I'm sorry. There's I Cannot believe anyone who is as utterly irrational as this man is a doctor of anything from anywhere but Evidently he went on a tirade because of the pack lids clip

I should not know what's on Star Trek because it's a pagan show and He even said

I posted an entire hour -long movie What do we play 90 seconds about 90 seconds of a single about 45 minute episode actually?

that was an illustration of the attitude of Bill Nye, but Let me tell you something that kind of hyper fundamentalism

That kind, you know the the Peter Ruckman the the cultic King James only

Constantly on flamethrower What color is the sky in your world?

type Hyper fundamentals. Oh, no, and I made reference to Frazier Crane. Ah You know that has that that thinks oh

I am so holy because I know nothing about the culture around me. I Can see why those folks scare secularists because it's cultic

It's just weird and It has absolutely no interest in truth.

None. He didn't get the facts straight. All right, that thing came out in 89 He became an elder in 88.

So it wasn't just from his pagan years. Actually, that's not when I became an elder So he's not even I mean within within a decade.

I mean just You just wonder where these folks land from but that was the first thing that I saw this morning was some poor fellow trying to talk to this quote -unquote, dr.

Rock guy and just Like I said,

I blocked him a long time ago because Lights are on nobody's home elevator goes top doors are open the whole nine yards

To fly to fries short of a happy meal He's McDonald's pagan to probably yeah

Anyways, just really really really weird All right, we move on I mentioned these things months.

Well, not in months ago at least weeks ago and I've never gotten around to them because there's just been other more important things to be doing but I did want to mention a few of these things because There have been some developments in the canner front

There does seem to be a tremendous amount of fear in churches in Georgia in regards to rocking the proverbial boat when it comes to the canner brothers who

I guess now have a fair amount of pole down there being presidents of the

Southern Baptist colleges in the state and And By the way,

I have been informed That possibly

I have not been able to verify this myself nor would I really even know how to but I've been told by Somewhat reliable sources

That there are people who are behaving inappropriately on both sides of this issue

But there are people who have done cyber stalking and things like that of Timothy Rogers I don't have any idea what motivates someone to do anything like that This whole issue is a matter of truth

It's a matter of honoring the pulpit honoring the ministry being very concerned about the devastating impact that Eric and Cantor has had in The field of Islamic apologetics and just trying to be honest and have integrity in that field by if I want to if I Want to be able to say to Muslims that they need to start looking a little more closely

At the people they put forward as experts on Christianity because they're allegedly former

Christians well, we need to do the same thing on our side and There is a crying need for that I don't

I haven't met a single defender of Eric and Cantor that could care less about it I haven't met a single defender of Eric and Cantor Who has ever seen the

Dean show? ever engaged in meaningful Apologetics to Muslims anything like that at all in fact,

I listened I Listened to yesterday's pulpit and Penn show with JD Hall and he read a he read an email from a

Bruton Parker student Who explained to him that you see what you need to understand is that what what dr

Cantor has done is he became a Muslim to win Muslims just like we should be willing to say that we were once a

Buddhist if it would win Buddhists and I'm listening this reading this this email and I'm just like Really?

There there are really people that think like that In the backwoods of Georgia, I can understand that they've never run into a

Muslim They've never talked to a Shabbir Ali Aaron Cantor's lied and says that he has

But There are people that are accepting that as a meaningful defense that he's he's actually being biblical by being all things to all people by lying

He's being a Muslim to win Muslims Well, you know the real problem with that is he hasn't even done a good job of that Mean there's in that the problem the the problem is that You know, he's runs around with a

Hadith 9157 and obviously doesn't know the Hadith collections well enough to recognize you have to cite the collection and Says Ramadan's 40 days long and all the rest is silliness

So he really hasn't been a good Muslim to Muslims, but that's really not the issue. Is it?

No, it's it's not and The fact there are people that would even make that excuse is really really really sad to me really really really sad.

So anyways We were sent a this is from 2005

January 12th 2005 Decatur Baptist Church. I have no idea where that is.

Maybe Decatur, Georgia. I don't know But Decatur Baptist Church PM service it looks like from what the file name is

Just a few things I wanted to play out of this and then we need to work our way into the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary presentation for 2003

But once again Demonstrating Documenting for the sake of honesty and truth

The repeated statements the fact these were not miss statements. They were always in a context.

They were part of creating a persona We know now

Anyways that there are people in Georgia who are listening listening to what we have to say a

Wider group, you know for a while Cantor was sort of under the radar There's I think it was his purpose hiding out in Texas a bit but now he's down there and in Georgia where his brother's got his hooks into the the power structure as well and So people are listening and So I'd like to I'd like to welcome all of you who are listening down there in Georgia Who are listening so as to try to find some way of coming up with a new excuse for Ergon Cantor and I just want to once again express to you.

I do not understand your motivations and I want to express to you that when you

Attack me You are attacking one of the individuals who is actually

Doing the very things that Ergon Cantor has pretended to do for a decade. I Hope you keep in mind

That when you attack me You're attacking someone who has extensive history in actually debating

Muslims I don't know of anyone who has been in as many mosques as I have

Presenting the gospel Toronto London South Africa to in South Africa Hoping for a third in South Africa later in this year

Lord willing You are attacking one of the few inerrancy believing inspiration promoting

Trinity teaching justification defending biblical conservatives

Who is right now writing a book With a Muslim on the

Trinity in Tauheed something that Ergon Cantor has never done and Would never do so just keep that in mind and if you can somehow square that with God You go ahead

You go ahead so Let's let's kick into the

Cantor presentation here from 2005 Decatur Baptist Church January 12th p .m.

Service But he has a story that America needs to hear he's a native of Turkey was a devout

Muslim Came to this country to be a terrorist So there's the introduction

Now some of the wildest claims I've heard have come from introductions and I have to ask myself the question where they get this now two things

I have been introduced in inaccurately at speaking engagements and There have been a couple of times especially on radio

I Did not have the opportunity To fix what had been said could happen to Ergon Cantor too

However, if it was an introduction before an entire sermon That's different than a radio program.

That's different than having commercial breaks coming up or something like that and Secondly, where'd they get at this information?

Where did why is it? These people keep getting the wrong introduction introductory material where to come from?

Native of Turkey, huh? Hmm I Sweden Stockholm Stockholm Turkey.

I remember that place. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to visit Stockholm Turkey might be interesting place to to go to Maybe they got some of that information from Ergon Cantor Because I am

I am your worst nightmare Turkish immigrant Came to this country in my teens

Turkish immigrants came here to this country in my teens. Now. What was that? What was he trying to communicate to the audience?

That he was actually born in Stockholm Sweden came here as a little boy and grew up in Ohio No came here in my teens how many times we heard this how many times over how many years

Can the same lie be repeated? Before certain people in Georgia get the idea this man lied for years

We can play it over and over again is Is he actually going to make the argument?

Well, you you've you just made that up You just made that up really and and how many?

Muslims do you think there were at the Decatur Baptist Church in 2005? So he's not he's not being all things to all people here

This is not trying to win Muslims. This is trying to deceive the dumb Baptists That's what he's doing, that's what he's doing, isn't it if it's something else tell me

Tell me what it is, but but derive it from his actual statements. Don't don't just make it up because because you want to But drive from what he actually says

What I'm trying to tell you is that I spent half my time offending people I spend 50 times a year somewhere around 50 times a year

My brother and I do debates with Muslims, Baha 'i Buddhists, Zoroastrians on college campuses

So I spend most of my time getting yelled at. Did you catch that? 50 debates per year

That's almost one per month a week. Sorry one per week

It would it would have only taken him three years To do more debates than I have done with all these different groups.

Well, that is really impressive There's only one problem. There's not the slightest bit of evidence that he's ever done any of that stuff

Even if you take The few little encounters that we found on iTunes that were embarrassing by the way

Even if you take them It doesn't add up to anything near this and He included his brother in that I wonder when

Ymir's gonna show us the debates that he was doing back in 2005 -2006 The 50 times a year.

Yeah You've been cotton farming, so there's no cotton in sand, Dad Now that was so quick you probably didn't get it.

There's no cotton farming in sand I We have pointed out many many times that again

Ergen Kanner Seemingly has next to no knowledge of Turkey either

Or it's you know the idea that some kind of sub -saharan

You know sand pile Rather than the place with all the different kinds of life zones everything else in it that Turkey actually contains

But the whole idea is yeah, well you know these audiences They'll they'll buy the

I've never worn my my laundry on my head And I don't drive a taxi cab, and you can't roller skate in sand you can't cotton farm in sand

You know those get the sand idea Arabs sand. I'm not really

Arabic, but hey they don't know the difference So why should I worry about it? That's what he's doing in it

You want to explain some other way explain it. Just do it from what he actually said Tyra is on the western shores of Turkey.

I'm an Eastern Turk toward the Kurdish regions, but it is the western shores of Turkey and So I'm an

Eastern Turk I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I can't move this. I've got a map up there.

It's old map man. I had that thing made I Had you know I took that down to that worldwide

Maps place remember it's still there I don't know how it's still in business with with electronic stuff.

I mean seriously But I took it down there in 1991

I think Because I was teaching church history for the first time right after I graduated from Fuller and So it's really dated like it's

USSR and all the rest is really old But I'm looking at Turkey, and then

I'm looking at Sweden No, no He's got his directions wrong, too

Yeah, yeah, which which which way I don't know I don't know now what was humorous to me is is

Dr. Kanner had he's 2425 canner

Likes to try to impress his audiences with original language stuff we know

His Arabic stuff is just great and has been greatly

Blessing a great blessing to the church And I once while he'll mention a

Greek word I Don't ever recall him mentioning a Hebrew word, but I could have missed it

But for some reason to these folks at the Decatur Baptist Church Aaron Kanner decide to start quoting

Latin Latin Who knew?

Who knew that Aaron can is a Latin expert problem is he didn't get that right either?

Ah So I'm sitting here listen to this here here you go in the

Latin the word is annoy us What's that sound like no on their way to the place of prayer on their way to church?

annoyed So he's talking about the incident in Acts where the woman with the

Spirit follows Paul is saying these men are the servants the

Most High God and then Paul turns around cast the spirit out of her and That's why they get in trouble And he says that the the term is

Well, I'll let you hear it for yourself in the Latin. The word is annoy us. I know that's Annoy us

From which we get annoyed Talk out um Faki bat multis de aboos

Dolan's out in polis at conversus spiritui That's the

Latin there's there's nothing about Annoyance annoyed in there just it's just Like why do this?

That do you sit around? Did he hear somebody else say it didn't check it out.

I don't know. I don't know Did he get maybe maybe he got just his references wrong or something?

I don't know but it you know, there are some of us who will actually Stop the recording.

I was gonna say stop the tape Roll it back, but there's a bit of a dating but most of us

Anybody who has a cordon sir lagos or Bible works or something? You probably got the Vulgate in there somewhere and Latin's not all that difficult.

I only had a few semesters of it just enough to muddle by and look up references and stuff like that and It wasn't difficult for me to just pop it up and look at the reference to go

Nope, not there what it speaks to is the level of Verification can are obviously expected from his audiences zip and sadly

That's pretty much what he got for a long time. That's pretty much what he got for a long time. That's sad

I mean when this guy can stand at the flagship

Southern Baptist Seminary with the smartest Southern Baptist in the world on the podium with him

Al Mohler and Stand there and fake Arabic and Then claim to have debated

Shabir Ali more than once and quote Shabir Ali and he's never even met him now obviously, he knows he's the best because that's why he uses his name

I Cannot begin to understand the mindset of someone who can stand there in front of that audience and Not realize, you know

There might be somebody here that actually knows Arabic. There might be somebody here that might actually know

Shabir Ali There's a Microphone on my tie

They might record this. There's a There's a camera

It might record it too. I can't conceive it.

I don't understand it But there it is There it is. I Again, the

Latin is the word Salah to solitary. So he decided to go to Latin Salah to Act 16 23 at Kumultas Plagas ice in Passuicent miserable and AOS in Carcerum precip

Precipitous custody or two diligently custodied at a us No, not there

Actually, there's the rest of it. If you've got the screen, I've been see I put the Latin in the in the notes next to it Nothing even close to what he said he must have a textual variant in his

Latin Sort of like yes textual variants in his Arabic Later on in in the sermon we we get

Correct on my life living in hotels anonymously Sacramento, California, they rushed the platform came to Missouri.

They they you know bomb scares. They said what care that's not big stuff Those of you who sacrifice So we have living in hotels anonymously and Bomb scares has there ever been a bomb scare at one of Eric Cantor's talks.

I don't know. He says there was in Cape Girardeau. I Would love to find out what when what churches he's spoken at in Cape Girardeau and asked him about that You know,

I say well, you just give him the benefit of the doubt He he wasted benefit of the doubt a long time ago,

I Mean once you've gotten to the 300th 400th lie, there's no benefit of the doubt left

We know he just makes stuff up on the fly in fact Is it gonna be in this one?

Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna see I'll give you an example of that a little bit a little bit later on but Then he always gets into his same stories, here we go

Everything I ever learned about American Christianity, I learned in the mosque from my imam or from my Madrasa a training center Now how many times we heard that it's it's almost word for word

When I came here, I didn't know anything about Christians Really? Okay It is a true statement that when he came here

He did not know anything about Christians because he was two and a half And I don't remember anything about when

I was two and a half. I start remembering stuff at three a Lot of folks don't even remember that but I do for some strange reason

Has something to do with the fact that I had a tricycle And my dad had to put blocks on the pedals so I could reach them first memory

So it was massive frustration Tricycle cannot pedal it My legs are too short

So my dad went out and bought these block things that you put on Pedals so I could ride and that was that was

I just turned three that was Now I'm gonna get psychoanalyzed by dr.

Rock That'll be fun, but anyway So I guess technically

It's a true statement, but the context he's putting in makes it a lie when

I came here, what does he already said I came here as a Teenager he didn't come in here as a teenager, and we all know that right?

He grew up in Ohio you telling me That there are no Christians in Ohio there were no

Christians in his kindergarten In his grade school How many

Christian teachers do you think Ergon Kanner had growing up I think they were all a bunch of atheists back in the back in the 70s in Ohio.

I had some Christian teachers I'm not that much older than Kanner hmm strange

And so every other place I'd ever lived I lived there as a as a majority person I always lived in the majority

Islamic countries, then I come to America I always lived in majority Muslim country

Ergon Kanner has never lived in a majority Muslim country unless You want to change the meaning of the context and say well he went with his dad once so he visited

That's not what he was saying is it no you see you have to take each one of these little statements pull them out and separate them from everything else and then come up with the most unnatural reading to defend

Ergon Kanner and that's what his defenders are doing and that's Dishonest Isn't it?

It is It's grossly dishonest My father wasn't wising and I'm the oldest of three sons to his wife this one wife

He had many wives catch that to this one wife. He had many wives again

That's not true either unless the Geisler excuse sheet

Which we discovered was written on a computer At Truett McConnell College or at least a computer licensed to Truett McConnell College Unless the

Geisler excuse sheet published on Geisler's website is itself a lie because according to that excuse sheet

Kanner's father came here with one wife Eventually divorced her and married another wife. That's what makes him a polygamist

Which we all know is not what Ergon Kanner is saying here again, is it? No, no, it's not

So he had many wives My father wasn't wising and I'm the oldest of three sons to his wife this one wife.

He had many wives I came as a faithful and devout Muslim Every debate I've ever had Oh, you do not understand

Islam. Oh, you need to understand the Arabic. That was my language before English What'd he say?

Let me let me play it again Because again according to the Geisler excuse sheet

This is a lie. Oh, you need to understand the Arabic. That was my language before English. That was my language before English Really?

His dad spoke Turkish not Arabic. They're not the same language folks Swedish Turkish English Not Arabic it's a lie.

Oh It's just it's just a preacher thing, right Will you at least admit?

That these are not true statements. They are not true statements.

Are they? English is hard And the worst thing is it's not just English.

It's hard. All y 'all got different accents Hmm Then we have why

I had a prayer rug in my locker in high school in Brooklyn, New York and then Columbus, Ohio I would roll my rug out five times a day three times in high school and twice other times

Bismillah There are Muslims that complain about my

Arabic pronunciation, which is bad. There's a question about of course, I never claimed Be a native

Arabic speaker, but his is worse than mine His is worse than mine. I do better and he does but did you notice the claim?

he had a a prayer rug in his locker in high school where in Brooklyn Brooklyn he was in Ohio from two -and -a -half

They may have gone through Brooklyn, but I can guarantee you as a two -year -old or a three -year -old

He didn't have a prayer rug in a locker in a high school in Brooklyn. Hello.

Hello Anybody here? To another form of worshipping him. I am

NOT spiritual. I don't hang out with Paris Hilton wearing a Kabbalah bracelet following Madonna I am NOT spiritual. I am saved.

I am born again. I am blood -bought What I'm telling you is I didn't go from talking about God one way to talking about God in another way

I went from worshipping a false dead idol and following a false

Prophet of hell to knowing the one true living redeeming There is no other

God You know

I played that because it explains why this is so important Explains why we are still talking about this

There are many of you. Well those of you who? Have already tuned out of tuned out. So you didn't hear this part anyways

But some of you maybe you just forgot to turn it off or something or like There was one point this morning where I couldn't hear what

I was trying to listen to but I was at such a good speed There wasn't a convenient place to stop you just all right and just hammered on through it

And maybe that's why you're listening to this and you're sick and tired of Eric and Cantor. This is why We cannot

Stop talking about I want to I am so sick of it. I am so sick of it. I'm sick of the politics I'm sick of the backroom stuff.

I'm sick of Sick of the whole thing really am tired of it, but this is why we have to do it.

Did you hear that? Did you hear that? Put yourself in a

Muslims shoes and listen to what I just played put yourself in a

Muslim now of course That's why these folks don't care They don't care about Muslims the vast majority of evangelicals don't either.

Let's just be honest They're over there. We're over here. We want to keep it that way right put yourself in a

Muslim shoes You've listened to what came before this and you know this man's lying

He's lying about when he came he's lying about why he came. He's he doesn't know what he's talking about and then

He launches into this to another form of worshiping him I'm not spiritual I don't hang out with Paris Hilton wearing a

Kabbalah bracelet following Madonna. I am NOT spiritual. I am saved I am born again

I am blood -bought what I'm telling you is I didn't go from talking about God one way to talking about God in another way I went from worshiping a false dead

Idol and following a false prophet of hell to knowing the one true living redeeming

Now you see why we have to talk about this is here he is

Muhammad's a false prophet. He's a prophet of hell the laws of dead God And all the

Muslim here's is the connection of the lies To that kind of rhetoric you see the problem is

I wouldn't care if Aaron Cantor was running around Claiming to be something he never was if He wouldn't sully the gospel in the process, but he does

He connects the two and once you connect lies to the truth

The truth does not elevate the lies The lies deg degrade the truth, and I honestly believe that if more people more pastors in Georgia or anywhere else

Actually cared about Muslims they'd be all over this but the reason he's gotten away with it

What's it gonna matter? I mean it's gonna. It's gonna take my time and man these guys got allies

You got Geisler, and you got all these people And I don't know any

Muslims, so why should I care see that's why this is important That's why this is important You say well, that's horrible and and yes,

I guess on some existential level it might be but you don't understand Hadith volume 9 number 57 Muhammad's speaking if anybody changes

Islamic religion kill him there is Hadith 957 again and Notice how he says

Hadith volume 9 number 57 in Canors mind

Bukhari is the Hadith It is the Hadith He doesn't realize that you could find

Similar references outside of Bukhari depending on printing or whatever else it might be in Muslim or something like that Because he doesn't do

Original say this stuff which surprised me just a little bit I mean his PhD is in just war theory, so maybe he never got into the

Hadith. I don't know but how he could not know this is

Truly beyond me. I I don't I don't know I don't know 1991 my mama got saved

In the baptistry took off her hijab. She's a church planter in truth consequences, New Mexico One kid stuck around Mrs.

Canor is saved in 1991 and She takes off her hijab in the baptistry if that's what happened praise

God only one problem That was many years

After the divorce and according to Ergin's brother She became a new ager.

I don't meet too many new agers that wear the hijab I Mean we've got the center of New Age wacko ism right up the road from us here called

Sedona, Arizona If you want to what was it? What was that the vortex what?

What was remember there was something supposed to happen? Back in the 90s or 2000s the where the everything was supposed to converge the vortex or something in Sedona Convergence or something or cosmic convergence.

I forget what it was Anyways it was in Sedona and So there was a beautiful place if you

You just have to keep your eyes on the road so much for the crazy New Agers wandering it wanting across the road

What do you remember it was I I don't remember. I've literally walked through State parks in Sedona there's a few of them up there there and as you're hiking around you see all these little pillars of rocks

Oh, yeah, the people their little altars that they I mean hundreds and hundreds of them

You know some cosmic convergence or something it's it's really weird, but if you can avoid the New Agers beautiful area

I I've never seen anybody up there in a hijab Harmonic convergence is that what somebody put up in the chair, huh?

Oh you googled it. Okay Google knows everything Yes, the harmonic convergence, and it was supposed to be focused.

When was it it was supposed to be focused in Sedona, Arizona I remember that the harmonic convergence But Anyways, it's neither here nor there

Anyways 2006 is that when it was okay whenever I Would like to think that that's what happened, but again

I don't have any reason to believe it because it's in this part of his story where it's just all lies

He's making it up to create the most emotional effect possible and So when you find data that would suggest that that's not the case that it's highly unlikely that mrs.

Kanner after the divorce from mr. Kanner When Emira says she became a

New Ager Why would she continue to dress as a Muslim all the way up to 1991?

When there's even great, there's even great reason given the yearbook pictures of Eric and Kanner himself to Reject the idea that he dressed as a

Muslim because he claims he did Not that they're not that when he went over to his dad's house

That he might not have put on a geffia or worn a kufi I'm sure he did that But I really doubt

That he was walking down the hallways of the high school There in what is a

Gahanna high school in Ohio? Wearing a kufi and rolling out his pyramid

I wonder if he did prayers During the rehearsals for the school play where he played the

Homosexual bartender or flower shop guy, whatever it was.

Yeah, I Wonder if he did the prayers during that part. I wonder Yeah Someone in channel who knows these things

Just said June 8th, 1978 Monica Kanner filed a motion to overturn the requirement to raise

Kanner as a Muslim Hmm why would she do that if she was still wearing the hijab and why would she continue wearing the hijab for another what?

13 years Anyway, one other thing here in this particular sermon that I wanted to to get get to Remember when the wheels fell off for Eric and Kanner was when

Muhammad Khan sent me Documentation That in 2007 twice in 2007

Eric and Kanner had claimed to have debated Shabir Ali in one of those two instances

He claimed to have debated three people Shabir Ali Nader Ahmed and Abdul Saleem it was the inclusion of those last two names that really caught my got my attention because Nader Ahmed, I know

I have debated him once only time that's gonna happen The other was

Abdul Saleem Because I go Abdul Saleem is a Christian.

I know who Abdul Saleem is. I know his real name. I'm not gonna tell you He has family that lives in Islamic countries.

I'm not gonna tell you but I know who it is So I would debate

Abdul Saleem Abdul Saleem never said those words that he had just attributed to him so I knew immediately the problem is

Eric and Kanner knows that too Eric and Kanner knows I don't know that he knows who Abdul Saleem is he might

But he knows Abdul Saleem is a Christian So what he was doing in those radio programs is he was just again

Assuming his audience would never check him out So, where's my evidence that he knew that Abdul Saleem was a

Christian before 2007 right here in 2005 You can imagine the life that my brothers and I lead There's only eight of us.

There's only eight former Muslims who go around speaking nationally and use our real names Everybody else uses pseudonyms.

Anish Arosh, Abdul Saleem, David Nasser. Those are pseudonyms. We use our real names See, I didn't want to invite this on somebody else and quite frankly at 30 years old.

I was happy as a bachelor Did you catch that? Everybody else uses pseudonyms. Anish Arosh, Abdul Saleem.

There it is. Everyone else uses pseudonyms. And who is he named? Abdul Saleem. It is a pseudonym.

He's right and he knew it He knew it So why two years later?

Is it just laziness? Is it just being really really really lazy? I mean Eric and Kanner's arguments back in in 2005 when

I first encountered him his arguments in written Documentation which we have provided for a long long time on our website

We published a complete PDF of all the exchanges between myself and Eric and Kanner on Reformed Theology lazy shallow, lazy

The easy stuff not the stuff that actually takes time, hard work, thought, research lazy

Lazy stuff. Is that what he was doing? He was just lazy. I need some Arabic sounding names.

Let's see Okay, Shabir Ali, Abdul Saleem, another Ahmed. Let's just throw them out there and say

I debated these guys No one in this audience is gonna check me out. We're good, right? I don't understand what else it could be.

I do not understand what else it could be. Just pure laziness

So with that I've still got a few minutes here as I've mentioned One of The pieces of information that came to our attention within the past few weeks, and that's probably been a month now, hasn't it?

Was the presentation that Eric and Kanner made at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in 2003

Dr. Mohler made a presentation what this would have been really interesting and it might have even been more It makes me wonder if it might have led to a discovery of Kanner's disingenuousness

Earlier In light of Possibly the the media attention that might have been drawn

Had Peter Kreeft shown up. Peter Kreeft was supposed to be at this at this presentation and Mohler and Kanner Were gonna be responding to Kreeft.

I think Dr. Mohr too. And that that might have done it that that might have gotten enough press

Coverage that maybe someone might start going. Yeah But Kreeft couldn't make it and to this day.

They still don't know why He said it was a family emergency never never said anything more beyond that so Dr.

Mohler gave a presentation then Eric and Kanner gave a presentation We're gonna listen to his presentation then listen to some of the questions

But once again think with me for a moment Just as it was nationally disastrous

For Eric and Kanner to be presented to Marines as an expert on Islam and for him to lie to those

Marines and Just as it is absolutely sinful For Eric and Kanner to be suing a

Christian pastor over posting those marine videos wherein he lied based upon some absurd idea of copyright as If a

Christian should ever seek to copyright lies in the same way

I Would argue that what Kanner did at Southern Seminary is even worse.

Why? Because these are future missionaries These are future ministers

And so you want to send people and you you listen to the questions at the end

These are people who have a passion for Muslims who are giving being given Absolute idiocy by this man.

There is one time. He has asked a question in a Q &A and the response is absolutely incoherent because the man does not know enough about the subject to give a coherent answer and That is sinful

Absolutely sinful but to me the gall

That it takes to stand in front of an entire student body and faculty of the premier

Southern Baptist Seminary and Pawn this stuff off these lies as we will hear them

Shows me that as early as 2003 Kanner has already made his decision that he is going to be this great wrestler of truth

The great ex -muslim wrestler of truth and he's all in All in by 2003.

It's it's not like You know still during this period of time, you know, the Turkish newspaper contacts him.

He grew up in Ohio. Yeah But he doesn't have to worry about that because nobody over here is reading Turkish newspapers, right?

So we're good We're all right. No problem He's he'll he'll tell the truth to people and check him out

Has anyone ever really thought about the tremendous disrespect? Ergon Kanner showed to every one of his audiences when he lied to them.

He was basically saying, you know what? I think you people are stupid And what's worse is

As I pointed out and I I suppose I could look for it. I don't think it it's in any of the things

I marked But I remember I heard it At this point in time

He wasn't just an invited guest speaking at Southern Seminary He was one of the trustees of Southern Seminary elected from the state of Colorado Because he was a pastor in Colorado.

So here you have one of the trustees of the seminary lying Through his teeth to the president the faculty and the student body of the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary There is only one word that I can use for this kind of behavior and it is sin

It's sinful and to this day the man and his supporters

Fight fight fight to keep him from having to confess that sin It's a spiritual thing

So But I was a Muslim for 20 years. I was a

Muslim for 20 years. I thought he was 18 when he converted

Yeah, he's just rounding up. Okay. All right. He was a Muslim for 20 years. My father was an ulema ulema is the is the plural word for scholars and alim alim is knowledge ulema plural

I don't know why He Gets that idea where he got it from it stuck obviously with him a scholar hadithic scholar more specifically a hadithic scholar is a muhaddith

Anyway, he was also a muezzin the one who does the call to prayer in the mosque And so I was the equivalent to the

Islamic equivalent of a PK preachers kid. No if he had been imam Then he'd be the

Islamic equivalent of a preacher's kid. He was not an imam He may have been well read but he did not communicate his well -read in this to his son who can't figure out that sahih al -bukhari is different than sahih

Muslim or the jami -a -tirmidhi or Sunan Abu Dawood Didn't communicate that but anyway

But it was my saturation. It was my life everywhere. I lived before I came to America. We were the majority I come to America and I have to explain to you from the

Islamic mindset. It is tough moving to your culture that sounds almost identical

To what we just learned just listen to from two years later So we've got 2003 we've got 2005 we've got 2007

You start and get the the idea here that this is not just well, you know there was a period of time where he sort of You know did this no it was a long period of time it was a consistent period of time and when you have the same

Misstatements in this year and this year and this year and this year and this year that's called purposeful malicious willful lying

Isn't it? How does Eric and Kenner teach his kids about lying?

Evidently, he can't define what lying is Given the way he speaks

Fat stone -cold Steve Austin, I Don't look religious The fact that you know that just that you just bothered your president a lot.

He's a great speaker He's always self -effacing in that way a fat stone -cold

Steve Austin Dr. Moller has no earthly idea who stone -cold

Steve Austin is And But catch the the wrestling thing,

I mean that is his life he loves that stuff He loves that stuff.

And then we have this a rather odd definition of Hadith I referred to the Hadith I am referring to the books by Muhammad about Muhammad an example of Muhammad Al -Bukhari's

Hadith is nine volumes thick It is it is but it's only one of the collections of the

Hadith And that's not how I would define Hadith the the Hadith are the collections of the traditions of Muhammad's words and actions and those of his companions

They're not by Muhammad by any stretch of the imagination That was a rather odd definition.

And again, the only one he seems to know have any have any real knowledge of is

Sahih al -Bukhari Not Muslim not the others Doesn't seem to be aware of them as a matter of fact in a debate at the

University of University of North Texas, I was getting hammered I was getting I was getting beat up like a

Husband at a Beth Moore conference or something because they question after question after question

Coming at me and and the media was was hammering me with this about coming back to this group hug kind of thing

And finally I turned to the imam who was with me the imam and I said I'll be may I ask you a question and he

Said yes, of course, and I said do you believe Allah and Jehovah the same God? He said no, of course not. This is ridiculous

Which is good Because now they hated both of us equally

I Cannot begin to imagine Why?

Ergon Kanner would pretend that he would address an imam as My father

Abhi Why would he do that I I don't know

Is there any evidence of a debate covered by the media at the University of North Texas?

I'm not aware of any I would I would love if Someone could present to us because this is this is 2003.

I 2001 So there'd be a fairly narrow time frame. So if anybody in the audience has a connection to the

University of North, Texas What I'd like to ask you to do Would be to go to the archives of the

University of North, Texas newspaper, I'm sure there's a student newspaper a university newspaper and Especially if it's been digitized this would be easy to do but if it hasn't not so much

See if you can track anything down about Ergon Kanner speaking at the University of North, Texas and about a debate with an imam

Because I'd love to see it. I Would love to see the coverage. I'd love to see if it was if it was as he's representing here because again

Every time we check him out We don't find them to be truthful. So You know

And we begin Do you do realize that we are not actually bringing any offering of prayer to Allah, don't you

Do you know what we are doing? We are reciting the first sort of the Quran the first six verses of the Quran Well Serta Fatiha is part and parcel of the

Islamic prayers My problem is it's seven verses not six. I don't know of any

Muslims don't know that Well, yeah, there's different ways of dividing it whatever whatever

Even I know I mean when I teach my classes I Show them a

Muslim video on Muslim prayer So that you can understand what they really

Does he know what know what the Nia is things like that? I I don't have any way of knowing

He certainly ain't gonna talk to me about it But again Just just just on the level of accuracy

He's confused the beginning of Serta Fatiha with the Shahada in the past on the

Ankerberg show. I think it was Again, if he was this faithful Muslim if you were doing that every single day for well

Starting at four or five years of age Whatever when he who claimed that he started all the way up to I guess he was 18 years old or something like that do you really think you'd forget that stuff and Start mixing this stuff up, especially when you go around speaking about all the time.

I I don't think so. I don't think so All right. We'll pick up at that point start here because there's still some more stuff to listen to in the 2003

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary presentation from Ergin Cantor Appreciate your prayers for the next two weeks could be a long trip.

Hope to see those of you in in Fredericksburg this weekend and then to my friends over in Keeve.

I appreciate the fact you've warmed it up over there It's in the 40s and 30s appreciate Not below zero. Anyways, that's good