Is Martin Luther WORSE than Kenneth Copeland? (with Guest Chris Rosebrough)

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And welcome to Your Calvinist Podcast My name is Keith Foskey And as always, I am your

Calvinist I'm excited today to welcome my guest, Chris Roseberg He's going to be with us in just a moment

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And all that good stuff as well So again, thank you for being a part of the show And I'm going to bring on my guest today

Someone I'm excited to speak to Someone I've known about and listened to for years And have finally had the opportunity to talk to him in person

Chris Roseberg of Pirate Christian Radio Chris, thank you for being on the show today Thanks for having me on,

Keith Absolutely And I want to say just by way of letting you know

I have listened to your program for years I used to do security at downtown

Jacksonville So I had a long trip driving in, driving back And I would do security late at night So I listened to you for hours and hours and hours at a time

And I have always found your show to be very encouraging You always pointed out the good stuff and the bad stuff

And oftentimes were helpful for me At being able to make that distinction

Between who the good guys are and who the bad guys are So I have been very thankful for that And you're funny as well

So I appreciate that Well, thank you I'm glad that I didn't totally destroy you

So that's good No I do also want to thank your son He's the one who

I connected with And he got us together And I'm hoping to have him on at some point in the future We've talked about doing something together

He's a bright young man And I understand he's part of the ministry there At Pirate Christian Radio What does he do for you guys?

He's our video editor And kind of the mastermind of things that we should be doing next Once I got old

I started not paying attention to Where the new things are supposed to be happening And so my son tries to keep pushing me into the present

Because I keep falling into the past I understand that Before we get to our topic

And we're going to be talking about an interaction That you recently had with Dr. Michael Brown Regarding the

American Gospel video Where he and Jim Osman And Sam Storms and Justin Peters Had a conversation about cessationism and continuationism

Before we get to that though Just for the sake of my audience I love to talk to Especially pastors from other denominations

Men who have perhaps differing convictions But at the same time

I believe we love the Lord And we share a gospel And we're proclaiming that gospel I want to ask you

How you became a Lutheran Because personally I love Martin Luther And not just the bondage of the will

I know Calvinists are accused Of only liking one thing he ever wrote And that was it But I do love much about Luther Every year we celebrate

Reformation Day And I do a little Lutheran conversation With our church about his history And the things that happened in his life

And why I appreciate him as a Not a perfect man But as an important person in history

So what is your How did you become a Lutheran? Were you born into it? Or were you brought into it by conviction?

Can you tell us that story? Sure I'm a Lutheran against my will That's the best way

I can put it So you want to talk about the bondage of the will I got drug into this By Christ So I was

I was initially Raised Roman Catholic However my parents divorced

When I was at a young age And both of them were excommunicated From the Roman Catholic Church And so from the time of their divorce

Until you know The rest of my childhood really The only contact I had with the

Roman Catholic Church Was through my grandparents And my grandmother anytime I would stay with her She wanted to go to the

Latin Mass Which means I didn't understand the thing that was going on Because I don't know Latin And so I just learned that when you are

In a Roman Catholic Church And they're doing the Latin Mass If everybody stands up you stand up If they sit down you sit down If they kneel you kneel

And you do it quickly Otherwise your grandma boxes your ears If you've never had that done to you Then you are blessed

So My interaction with Christ And the Gospel was

Completely Not there at all And as a result of that I was kind of Ankle tackled

Regarding the Gospel and became a Christian For real When I first heard the

Gospel At a Free Methodist Junior High School That I was attending My parents had put me there

And I heard the Gospel for the first time Never heard it in Rome Because all I heard was Latin And heard the

Gospel for the first time It wrecked me And I can legitimately say that that is a huge Turning point in my life

But my then catechism Into Christianity Was based upon Very legalistic, self -righteous

Wesleyan kind of doctrines Through the Free Methodist Church and the Nazarene Church And unfortunately

Despite both of those Denominations having a Confession that they believe in Jesus And they believe in Jesus for the forgiveness

Of our sins, the way their theology Plays out, they put such a heavy Emphasis on the law, and the

Gospel Kind of falls into the wayside So when I was in Nazarene, the primary Doctrine, the primary text

That was the center of all of our preaching And teaching was from the Gospel of Matthew Be ye perfect as your

Father in Heaven is perfect Well I don't need to explain to you That going through puberty

And being perfect Leads to very different results from perfection And as a

Result of that Really created Turmoil and conflict in my life

And then by the time I Graduated from high school My girlfriend

Who I dated through high school, who would then Become my wife, we both felt That we weren't being serious enough

About our Christianity And so we decided to Dive headfirst into Pentecostal Charismania Into what's called the

Lateran Movement And we spent nearly a year There, and then the best way I can say it is God graciously delivered us out of that But coming out of that we felt very

Betrayed and we didn't know Which way was up And one of the things my wife said

After we had, because we were under a Prophetess, and this prophetess I mean she had so much control

Over us that I had to like give her my Paycheck every two weeks and then she would Give us a small amount to live on, that's how much

Control this group had over us So when we came out Of that feeling very betrayed

My wife says, where do we go now? And I said, well I think the Bible is true but I'm Pretty sure we don't know what it means because In high school if we attended

A small group Bible study The conversations would generally go So let's read a verse and then let's

Go around The room and Have everybody answer the question

What does this verse mean to you? Which is like no way of arriving at what the Scriptures actually say or mean

And as a result of that We had a lot Of enthusiasm but Biblical knowledge

Like this much And so after we got out of that I began doing countercult apologetic

Works To try to minister to Jehovah's Witnesses And I found that I kind of Really took to countercult

Apologetics, it was something that I understood And because I was still Trying to process what had gone wrong in our life

That This was some way of like helping me Kind of figure out what the Bible actually teaches

It was then that I actually had One conversation with the late Walter Martin and told him about my love

For countercult apologetics and asked him what I should Do if I wanted to study this formally And he told me that we needed to move

To Southern California And attend Christ College Irvine And I'm to study apologetics

Under Dr. Rod Rosenblatt Rosenblatt is famous for the White Horse Inn And in fact

When I was at Christ College That's when the first pilot episodes Of the

White Horse Inn were first being recorded By Rosenblatt And Horton and Riddlebarger So I did what

Walter Martin Told me to do, I went to a Lutheran University And when I first got there I thought I had made the worst decision

Of my life because As a Nazarene you spend a lot of time Putting paint on the facade of your

Righteousness And you can't really be open about What you're struggling with as far as sins

Or things like this because then Your whole salvation comes into question And Rosenblatt He was an earthy fellow

Best way I can put it And I was really put off By him and I had

Overloaded my coursework, my first quarters At Christ College Irvine Which then became Concordia University I had overloaded my coursework with his classes

And at the end of every class I was thinking How am I supposed to learn Christian apologetics

From a man who clearly isn't saved Because he's not even trying to be saved And what

Rosenblatt was famous For was his complete Trust in the Finished work of Christ for the forgiveness of his sins

And one of the things That he was really, really on about Was he would get a lot of Flack for working with Calvinists And Rosenblatt basically says

Listen, when it comes to the self -righteousness Of Rome The Wesleyans Are on the same side of the spectrum as Rome is and so many

Wesleyans And Nazarenes are functionally Roman Catholic But he says the only Two opposing groups

That are preaching law and gospel And actually proclaiming The sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice

On the cross for our sins He says the only two groups that are opposing Those other groups

Are the Lutherans and the Calvinists And so he considered us to be Foxhole buddies

Although we couldn't attend the same churches He had such a high regard for Calvinism That he would never draw

Swords against the Calvinists Is the best way I can put it And so I kind of keep my

Sword sheathed when it comes To the Calvinists and I get a little bit of But that's something I learned from Rosenblatt But anyway, so I'm now exposed

To Lutherans for the first time At Christ College Irvine And I'm put off by them

But the one thing I keep hearing from them All and especially Rosenblatt Is that salvation

Is by grace through faith Alone. It is not by Works. It is a gift of God It is not something that you earn

It is all by the merits of Christ And I'm struggling Every time

I hear this Because my entire Nazarene training Was the gospel

Is something that you hear Before you make a decision for Jesus And then you just gotta get busy

On the rat wheel of good works Because you can't You can't trust that Christ Has really done it all for you

Obviously there's something you gotta do To earn it. So I was very suspicious of the gospel And I remember going up to Rosenblatt One time after class and saying to him

Rosenblatt, if what you're saying is true That salvation is totally a free gift And it's by the merits of Christ And there's nothing we can do to earn our salvation

You're telling me I can do whatever I want Which actually says a lot about me And nothing about him

Because I was hearing About the free forgiveness of sins Is somehow a license to sin when it wasn't

And so Rosenblatt, without even skipping a beat Looks at me and goes, well of course Chris He says now that Christ has set you free

From slavery to sin, death, and the devil What do you want to do? I went, uh, what?

Uh, uh Let me get back to you on that I did not expect that answer So while all of that's going on I have my colleagues

At Christ College Irvine Now I was getting better grades than all of them And we were in a highly competitive

You know, in a highly competitive school This is old school stuff Grades are posted and people know

Who's top in the class I was besting all of the Lutherans And I was still a

Nazarene It was annoying them And so from time to time they would Basically decide to go after me

Because I knew where my weaknesses were And my weakness was on the gospel But also on the sacraments

And I know that we're going to have a disagreement here But you'll have to kind of hear me out And so one of them

Tossed over a Greek New Testament And he said, hey Roseboro Yeah, what's baptism about?

Well, baptism is the thing that you do To show the world that you've made a decision for Jesus And so he says, well, there's your

Greek New Testament Show me where that is in the Bible And I said, well, it's in there somewhere Where? I don't know where, but it's there

Well, don't you have a chapter and verse? No. Well, what about the text in 1 Peter That says baptism now saves you?

I said, well, it doesn't mean that Well, what does it mean? I don't know what it means But it doesn't mean that And so This is the kind of conversations we're having

And it was just annoying But I put on a brave front Fighting these stupid, staunch

Lutherans Because they're quasi -Roman Catholics Who clearly don't know Latin And I put on a fight for a couple of years

And then my third year At Concordia University I was taking a Greek readings course And our professor,

Pastor Brighton He assigned for us To translate through the entire book of Titus That's a pretty good subject

And so about October of that Year I have a bad habit of procrastinating

So I was translating My homework late at night And I came across Titus chapter 3

And so I'm translating And when you get to verse 4 It says, when the goodness and loving kindness

Of God our Savior appeared He saved us Not because of works done

By us in righteousness But according to his own mercy By the washing of regeneration

And the renewal of the Holy Spirit And so I'm translating this text And here it's clearly saying

We are not saved by any works done by us And I'm Obviously having a

PTSD moment Just with that, because it's like Every time I'm opening a biblical text It's exactly what these

Lutherans are saying That God has saved us He can't earn your salvation But then it gets to a dia clause

In the Greek And it talks about the means by which He then regenerates us

And it talks about the washing of regeneration And so It says dia lutru polygonesis

In the Greek And so I looked up the word lutru It's the Greek word lutron And when you look it up, it's talking about a ceremonial washing

The only thing it could be referring to is baptism And I said, no That's just not right

And so I went and found a different lexicon

I had to go into my office To grab it and pulled it out And sure enough, it's the same thing And when

I saw that, I realized You know what, the Lutherans are right They're right about salvation being by grace

Through faith alone And I know this is going to be challenging But they're also right about the fact that sacraments

Are not mere symbols of something Of a decision that you've made But sacraments are actually means

By which God is doing something for us You could almost describe it as God individually applying the gospel

To a human being And so After exegeting that text And translating it

At that point I gave up I said, that's it, I'm a Lutheran I'm defeated

And so when my wife woke up the next morning I said, well honey, we're Lutherans She said, oh no, we're not

And It took another 10 years for my wife to warm up to Lutheranism, but that came

Just through patiently teaching Her the word of God So that's how I'm a

Lutheran I'm a Lutheran against my will Well awesome Maybe one day

It would be fun For us to have a conversation about baptism I would wonder where, because I don't take

The typical Baptist view of It's an outward shoving inwards Change kind of thing, which is a typical

Baptist, I do believe baptism Has an important connection To salvation, I may not see it as causal

As you do in the sense of Bringing about regeneration, but I think That there's a tie there that Baptists often

Miss, and so I do think it would be A worthwhile conversation And not to change

Can't change the direction today But I love the fact that You came to your convictions through studying

Scripture, and that's what I think we should all do We should study the word of God It's interesting because I don't meet too many people

Who came out of the Nazarene Background, one of my favorite teachers in school Was a Nazarene, and so I have a

Somewhat positive connection through him, because I loved Him, and he was my favorite teacher And I actually did his funeral

We stayed friends after school And were friends for 20 years, but he was A Nazarene, and so it's interesting

To hear your background With that. My church I'm in the same church

I passed through the church I grew up in, which is funny But our church used to be part of Our church used to be part of the

Disciples of Christ, if that gives you Wow, okay You're on a journey yourself

Too, holy smokes Yeah, to go from that to a Reformed Baptist church Wow That's a wild change

And again, story for another time But definitely It's amazing what God Can do as He works through Our lives and shows us

His grace And the one thing I know you and I Agree 100 % on, and that is we are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone

And unified In that. It's important to note This, that the Lutherans oftentimes get Charged with the belief that because we believe

God does something in baptism, that somehow That's contrary to The doctrine of salvation by Grace through faith alone, apart from works

Baptism isn't our work Baptism is God's And so we have to make that Distinction, and I would even note,

I would challenge People who kind of wrestle with that Go back and do a careful reading of Titus 3 You know, especially

Verses 4 and 5 and 6 And you can see How Paul makes a big distinction between The washing and regeneration and works

The two are completely In different categories altogether So, you know, this is

Exegetically, this is where the Lutherans Go with that, so Oh, cool. Well, I appreciate you sharing that I'm going to take one minute to Bring up something for our audience, and we'll be right

Back to talk about Dr. Michael Brown Hey guys, I just want to quickly say Thank you for watching this episode, and if you're

Enjoying it, please hit the thumbs up button If you're not enjoying it, hit the thumbs down button Twice Also, if you haven't already, please subscribe to The channel, it really helps us out

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Slash your Calvinist and leave a donation Most importantly, we want to make sure That everybody who hears this podcast

Hears the gospel. The word gospel Means good news, and that good news Has to be preceded by some bad news

And the bad news is this That we are all sinners. Sin is Breaking God's law, so we stand guilty

Before the Lord of the universe But the good news is, God sent his son Into the world to pay the penalty for Everyone who would believe in him

Jesus came into the world, lived a Perfect life, and he died a substitutionary Death for everyone who will believe

And he calls us all to repent of our Sin, to turn from our unbelief And trust in him as Lord And Savior.

And if you've never done that I encourage you to do so today Now back to the show Alright Chris, thank you for your patience on that And again, if there's anybody in the audience

Who's heard that message and wants to Have a dialogue about it, or maybe you have a further Question, always feel free to email me

At calvinispodcast at gmail Dot com. So Chris, recently you had an interaction with Dr.

Michael Brown on the subject Of the relationship Between Martin Luther and the

Jews And particularly about Martin Luther and Kenneth Copeland Of all people, which

I found interesting And that was my reason for reaching out To you. I have some short Video clips.

I would like to just If it's okay with you, I'd like to play a Quick clip that brings in the conversation

This was what Was the initial call with you and Dr. Brown. I've only got one minute

It's a 13 minute video, but I've only got one minute of it Just so people get a context of what's going on And this is

What Michael Brown's contention is And It was a four hour video

The American Gospel put out. If you haven't seen it, it is available Online. And in that video, he made The claim that Martin Luther's sins

Against the Jewish people are Hundreds if not thousands of times Worse than Kenneth Copeland's sins

Against The people of God today. And I just Produced a video that we'll get out as soon as we can

Where I flatly And openly rebuke American Gospel And Chris Rosevearl For putting out a video downplaying

The severity of the Sins of Martin Luther And claim when I quoted him

I was misquoting him or taking Him out of context And these were not things he needed to Repent of, to be in right relationship

With God And have eternal life, etc. It's utterly reprehensible

Why do I bring it up? I bring it up because These very same people Will blast a charismatic leader

For a sin That is one hundredth the severity Of Luther's And has had one thousandth

The effect of Luther's sin Because the Nazis used those And put a lot of his strategies

Into practice. Alright, that's the context of this conversation

And You put out, he's actually Responding to a video that you did

You did a video, so there was The four hour video And you did your video in response

To that, your video was in response To that talking about Luther and trying To contextualize

Luther And then he comes and he responds And then you call in and respond to him So there's been a lot of back and forth

But the first Question I have for you, maybe I get you to Spend some time with this Are you in any way trying to Whitewash or Or Simply overlook the sins

Of Martin Luther? No, not at all. Let's just be blunt What Martin Luther called for The burning of synagogues and the killing of rabbis

Is sinful That is not Something that Christians are to be about The business of doing

And I would note by Lutheran standards It's a breaking of the commandment that says You shall not murder, and also

I would note That Martin Luther in his Anti -Semitic writings Was guilty of breaking the commandment

That says you shall not Bear false testimony Against your neighbor. I know a little bit

About this because last year About this time last year, I got involved In a protracted, multi -month long

Debate with Bonafide, modern day Nazis And People who are embracing

Anti -Semitism and calling For the establishment of white Christian nationalism here in the

United States And the deportation Of all Jews, of all people Of color, and Creating the

United States into A white European ethno -state Is basically what they want to do

And they call that a Christian nation And so as a result of that Protracted Debate with these fellows and Argument with them,

I ended up reading Martin Luther's, you know, On the Jews And Their Lies, and Had to do some further research to Kind of unpack what it is that I was reading

There, and so I have A perspective On his writings

Based upon, one, reading what Luther wrote, two Looking at Those Jewish scholars

Who have rebutted the Claims of anti -Semites And knowing then where These arguments came from and what

Actually happened to Luther, and so In putting him back into his historical Context, it's

What I'm basically saying is that we're Not going to justify his sins What we are going to do is try to Understand where they came from And what led to these sins

And there's Also a very specific reason why I said that, you know,

Luther, it wasn't really necessary For him to cognitively repent of that Particular sin for his salvation

That's not a requirement of Salvation. We're not Roman Catholics where we say That in order to have a sin

Forgiven, you have to remember it Openly confess it, and then Receive, you know, A blessing from the

Priest saying, I absolve you We don't have to do that So when it comes to confession

It is sufficient to say, I repent Of all sins, and sadly Scripture teaches that there are sins

That we engage in that we're not Cognitive of, and so Sin runs so deep

Inside of us as a result of our Corruption and the fall of sin That we sin against God In ways that we're not even

Perceiving, and so I believe that Luther When you take a look at the

History of this thing and what Luther was doing I believe that Luther legitimately Thought that he was protecting

The gospel and Christianity From what he perceived as A very deadly threat

To Christianity But it was based upon propaganda That he had read about what the

Jews Believe and what they confess And as a result of that His reaction was prompted

By virtue, but his virtue Was turned into a vice And so this is something that we

Have to be cognitive of So putting it back into its historical context Number one, Luther was

Part of the Holy Roman Empire And he had a Christian monarch And he lived in a time

When this is the closest Thing you're going to get to A Christian nation, Christian nationalism

And as a result of it, there is no Separation of church and state, and he believed That it was the job of the monarch

To punish all evildoers Not only evildoers that are Committing civil crimes, but also evildoers

That he believes are a threat To the church, so he Believes the job of the prince

Is to punish both sides Now we live in a nation where there's The separation of church and state

And as a result of it, we've grown up In this context where You can be a good citizen of the

United States And be an atheist, you can be a good citizen Of the United States and be a Calvinist or a Lutheran Or a

Jew or a Roman Catholic Your status Within the

United States Is not in jeopardy If you believe in any of these religions

Or none of these religions But that was not the case In Martin Luther's poem It was a completely different thing altogether

And so that's primary assumption Number one, but number two Is the question of what was he reacting

Against, so Luther Unlike the Nazis of The past as well as the present

Was not knocking the Jews On a racial issue In fact, in his writings against The Jews, he

Legitimately rebukes Judaism For somehow thinking that they have A superior race among humanity

Because they are direct descendants of Abraham So you'll note that When you actually read

Luther's Writings, and they're hard to read I've got to admit, it's not a glorious read It's a terrible read

When you read it, you recognize Okay, he's not going after them racially Whereas the Nazis of the past They were

Engaging in was a form of anti -Semitism Based primarily first on race But second then on this other narrative

This narrative about There being this secret Jewish cabal To run the world

And to financially control everybody And all this kind of stuff, and on top of it There's misinformation about Jews Like for instance, that Jews Three times a day curse

Christianity No, they don't That somehow the Talmud's Given okay to pedophiles

No, it doesn't And so what happens is that there's a lot of Misinformation as it relates

To what it is the Jews believe And what they are doing, and as a result Of it, you create this

Straw man, boogeyman Of this evil Jew who's trying to take over The world, who's engaged in Pedophilia and cursing

Christ And Christianity three times a day And nothing could be further from the truth These are all lies

But if you read the propaganda and you believe it And then you react and say We've got to protect

Christianity You'll note then that what happens Is that your inherent

Drive to Stand up for the honor of Christ To stand up against the

Enemies of Christianity Is then used It's actually weaponized

Because your focus is on something that's wrong And I believe that that's what's happened to Luther And so, again, it doesn't

Justify what he did What he said was unjustifiable Because there's a big difference between saying

Listen, modern day Jews That's the religion of the Pharisees That is currently in its modern form

But that's where it comes from And they oppose Christianity, the Gospel And they deny that Christ is the

Messiah We need to evangelize them And engage them in conversation So that they can repent

That's one thing But to then say, well, because they do these things We need to burn their synagogues

And kill their rabbis No The church Is not given the task

Of preaching the Gospel And making disciples So we'll note that's where Luther Crossed the line

And where he was reacting against What he believed Judaism teaches

I mean, that's all well and good But some of what he believed that Judaism Was teaching is not what they believe

And so I would actually point people to, of all things A book written by Michael Brown Against antisemitism

Where he actually shows How the Talmud is misinterpreted And that people who say that Jews believe these things

Do not rightly understand How to interpret the Talmud And so, as a result of that They're erring

And so We still have the same temptation today And I would say many of those Who have bought into the false narrative

That is now re -arising From modern day Nazism With a regeneration

Of antisemitism And Christians Falling for this stuff They need to take about 10 steps back

And ask the question Do Jews really believe these things? That being a pedophile is okay?

That they curse Christianity Three times a day? They don't. It's actually slanderous to say that they do.

And so the problem is Is that the propaganda against The Jews Is legitimately slanderous

In what they believe and confess And as a result of it, you'll note That when you propagate those lies

You actually make it harder To reach Jews with the Gospel Rather than easier In the video

The video that you produced There was a gentleman A video slid in And I think it was a

Lutheran pastor I'm not even sure it was a sermon I think it looked like some kind of address That was

Dr. Rod Rosenblatt My mentor And what he said I think was very helpful

Because he was saying There were sins that Luther did And there were sins in the history of the church

He even talked about The aggressive attacks Against the Anabaptists and different things

I was thankful to hear him say that Obviously these are historical things That we all have to look back to And everyone has to deal with different things

As a Calvinist I hear the name Servetus comes up quite a bit Because of the issue with that And I think we too quickly dismiss

The fact that yes This was a bad thing And we need to address it as it was

And not whitewash it But at the same time looking at it Within its historical context Does change the view

Because these are men as you noted Who are living in a Christian national world

Where we are not currently Even though there are people who want us to be And for a moment I would like to ask you

To speak to that because I understand You do have some thoughts And again I don't want to take us too far to the right

But on this issue of the current trends in Christian nationalism You would see a distinction

I would think Between certain brands of people Who are wanting to see a Christian nation Versus white

Christian nationalism And things like that You would see a distinction there Yeah Unfortunately some of the leaders

Within the Christian national movement I think that they Are guilty at times of partnering

With these white Christian nationalist guys And or not making proper distinctions Or distancing themselves from them

And they really need to reconsider that Because Nazism is not Is not anybody's friend

It is a horrible Murderous ideology And it's not compatible with Christianity In any way shape or form

So let's just make that clear And there is a difference Between Nazis and anti -Semites

I mean there is a distinction you have to make between them But Nazis Fascism itself

Oddly enough It comes from Marxism It's kind of a weird form of Marxism Taking on a very weird view

Regarding how humanity works In their system Individuals don't exist

The only thing that exists is the organic community And so That's why there is no such thing

As individual rights within Nazism And that's one of the reasons Why they call themselves National Socialists They were legitimately

That's a Marxist ideology It's a weird morphing of Marxist ideology

So when it comes to Marxism and Fascism They are actually two sides of the same coin

And I would note Christianity isn't on that coin So you run away from both of those

But you do have to make a distinction Between today's White Christian Nationalists Which are basically kind of glorified skinheads

And people Who really Desire to live in a Christian nation

I understand that impetus But if you want to live in a Christian nation Then we better start turning on the gospel a lot

And going out and preaching the gospel Because you have to make people into Christians In order to have a Christian nation

I'm just saying Good thought And an important thought I think that's part of what we need to be talking about What do we mean

And what do these terms mean Well, when we talk about The thing that bothered me

Maybe more than anything And obviously I had a lot of issues With that four hour video I sat through the whole thing And I usually don't have time in my life

To donate four hours to anything Outside of studying for preaching I am a pastor And I spend most of my time during the week

Preparing for Sunday and working with the church and ministry And this is just a happy hobby that I get to do

Is the online ministry And The thing that I noted though In the four hour video

Was this comparison Between Luther And Copeland And the statement that was made in the video

And then in the video with you Was that Luther's sins somehow are Hundreds or thousands of times

More dangerous than Copeland's sins And later in the video And for those who haven't seen it, it's available

You can go see it Later in the video Justin Justin Peters He said that it's going to be worse

On the Day of Judgment for I can see his face, what's his name?

The guy in Texas, Joel Osteen It's going to be worse for Joel Osteen Than it will be for Adolf Hitler And obviously

Brown was Totally offended by that And you could tell in the video He was very unhappy by that statement

And I get it, obviously he is a man who has If you want to say In a sense skin in the game

He is a Jewish man He has Jewish family He probably has ancestors who were affected

Very directly by the Holocaust And therefore his life

He's having to address This from a very guttural

And human perspective And so him being offended I'm not upset that he gets offended by that phrase

But what are we Saying Do you agree with Justin that we should

Consider the preaching of a False gospel to be even worse Than these things or do you think we should

Look at all sin the same and just sort of just Flatten it out? What are your thoughts on that? Do you think Justin went too far? No, I don't think he went too far

And the reason being is because even Christ Makes it clear that the Day of Judgment will be easier for some people

Than for others. So for instance Jesus makes it very clear That it's going to be worse

On the Day of Judgment for the people Who were alive in his time Who heard his preaching and saw his miracles

And rejected him And that it's In fact he says that on the

Day of Judgment the people of Sodom and Gomorrah Are going to rise up and condemn them For because somebody greater than Anybody had showed up So Jesus himself makes distinctions like this

But the thing is if we're going to make distinctions Using Christ's categories We're going to have to think theologically

And really kind of Think this out So coming back then To the comparison between Adolf Hitler and Joel Osteen Adolf Hitler legitimately started

World War II and how many Tens of millions If not more than 100 million people

Lost their lives And we're going to note that that's a Horrible tragedy of the 20th century

And Picking through the rubble of the Second World War is a vital

Important part for us to be doing so we Don't make similar mistakes Or go down similar

Paths. But at the end of the day People that were Dispatched as a result of World War II A healthy number of them are going to Be Christians.

They're with Christ in eternity And so yes Hitler's sins by humanity

Standards are huge But Hitler wasn't a false preacher Now you look at somebody like Joel Osteen And his reach is to Hundreds of millions of people

Around the globe. Hundreds of millions And here's the thing is that I like to use this comparison

Is if I go to a doctor And the doctor has A bad day and I'm In surgery, the worst thing

That can happen to me is that I die You have a bad doctor, he's going to Kill you. The worst thing that can happen to you is

You're going to die. But because I'm in Christ Well I'll be with Christ so We can rejoice over that But a false

Prophet, a false Teacher, he's not Killing you physically

He's sending you to hell And so We have to start to measure these

Things in terms of Thinking in light of the day Of judgment. Granted Hitler is going to be in hell

He did not repent. He's going to Be in hell and Christ will make Sure that he suffers eternally

For all the evil that he's done This is most certainly true But the thing is is that Joel Osteen will be also there unless He repents.

Because Joel Osteen preaches a false gospel He twists God's word. He blasphemes

God's name. The religion That he preaches isn't Christianity And he's ingratiated

Himself, making bazillions of dollars In the process And he not only

Doesn't repent of his false Teaching, he legitimately goes After channels on YouTube that try to Expose his false teaching.

So I know that personally The things we have to do in order to critique Joel Osteen are ridiculous

Otherwise we could lose our channel And so If I could just interject,

I understand Mike Winger Actually was threatened with a lawsuit Because of a video.

And I don't know if you have been as well But I know he has And that, I mean, you're right Who puts out

Joel Osteen videos? Not anybody. Because you can't Say anything. So the idea

Then is that we have To reserve the hottest Regions of hell for Pastors.

I hate to say this But remember, Scripture is clear When it comes to pastors and teachers, they have a stricter Judgment.

The hottest regions of hell Are reserved for People who have Legitimately killed people's

Souls and sent people by the Droves, by the millions, into The flames of hell by their false teaching

And their false gospels. That's Where the hottest regions of hell are reserved For. So Justin, in making

That comparison, I think he's Making a valid one. Now I understand how Repugnant that would be for Michael Brown And I legitimately have empathy for him

Because, you know, you'll note That the Holocaust was Horrific. It was absolutely

Devastating to the Jewish Community on Planet Earth. And to this day, the

Number of Jews on planet Earth are not that many And just Imagine how many more there would be on planet

Earth if it hadn't been for Hitler And so When you play the Hitler card, understand

That regardless of how Or when you play it, you're playing A card that is going to not only

Be used for intellectual purposes But it's going to invoke emotion And so you need to be prepared

For a backlash If the person who Hears you playing the

Hitler Card is offended By the use of it, and they have Family reasons why to be

So like I said, I have absolute Empathy for Michael Brown, but My concern then is

Something along these lines, is that Michael Brown My big concern with him

Is that he doesn't have a category In his thinking When it comes to false teachers

And false prophets, because he believes That a false teacher and a false prophet Is automatically somebody

Who is not a believer He is very reticent to use those Titles, and as a result of it

Ken Copeland, Joel Osteen Bill Johnson Jennifer LeClaire And the whole host of Wingnut wackerdoodles out there

They all fit Into this one convenient bucket for him And that's airing brother

But the scriptures don't Allow us to do that And so as a result

Of it, I think that Michael Brown Is, by refusing To Really apply the biblical

Tests here and say, you know Ken Copeland is not an airing brother He is a heretic and he's hellbound

He is not willing to Say that And that's going to speak to a couple

Of things in Brown's life. If you've listened to Brown's Testimony, Brown At one point was a five

Point Calvinist, and his claim Is that he was repugnantly Self -righteous and smug

And like almost worshipped His Mental prowess as a result of it

And so he thought that that was a bad fit for him And he's Repented of it, but I think he's like Over -repented.

I'm not saying Calvinism Leads you to think you're intellectually Superior, but clearly His time in Calvinism, that was the

Fruit that it bore in his life. I see What you did there.

But The thing is We can talk about superior theology without Somehow thinking that I'm a superior thinker

Okay, because The idea here is That true biblical theology is superior

To everything else, not because I'm smart But because that, it's true. You know And so I always like to tell people that The bible makes me look a lot smarter than I am

So, you know But the bible has Superior theology. My goal is

To adopt that as my own, but Anyway, coming back to Brown's thing is that I think he's over -repented, and as A result of that, he is so Reticent to Legitimately say that these

Preachers and teachers who are Obviously heretics He can't bring himself to say that they're heretics

Because he somehow thinks That that would be smug or Arrogant or whatever, and so He always kind of over -charitably

Puts them into the category of Erring brother That, you can see

The problem here, and the problem Isn't what the bible says, I think the problem Is Michael Brown being able to Consistently apply it, so At least that's my

Two cents, and I've told him That personally, so Something else that he

Said in his interaction With you that really caught me off guard Because I would be with you on this,

I think Almost completely Is you were making the point That the

Judaism of today Is not biblical Judaism, in the sense of Old Testament Judaism, and it's a corruption

Much like the Pharisees had corrupted The law, had added to the law Had, as Jesus Said, and even

Brown used the example of the Straining of the gnat and the swallowing of the camel That they had twisted and Manipulated God's law, and So what we see in today's

Judaism, and I've preached this from the pulpit This is not The Old Testament Judaism, this is not the

Judaism of Christ, this is a perversion of that But it seems as if he was Defending that it is, at least

And maybe I'm misunderstanding him And maybe you could clarify that, but when he said Well that's what Paul said it was,

Paul said It was Judaism, and when I heard that I was like Well, but Can he really? Yeah, so I understand what he's trying to do here

So Lutheran scholars We refer to the religion Of the Old Testament, it's actually found

In the Tanakh, we refer to it as Yahwehism, in order to Distinguish it from the religion

Of the Pharisees, so It's absolutely Historically accurate, that Orthodox Judaism of today

Is the theological Forebearer Inheritor Of the religion created by the

Pharisees And it is not Biblical Judaism It's a In fact it's the

Judaism that Christ himself Condemned, I would point people to The opening portions of The Gospel of Mark chapter 7

Where Jesus, I love This text, I don't know what your time Frame is, but let me exegete it for you

Let's do it Alright, so here's what it says Here's what it says in Mark 7 The Pharisees gathered to Jesus with some of the scribes

Who had come from Jerusalem, and they saw that some Of Jesus' disciples ate with hands That were defiled, that is unwashed

The Pharisees and all the Jews do not Eat unless they wash their hands properly Holding to, and this actually

Should be capitalized, the tradition of the elders The tradition of the elders is a body of work So if you know the story

So by the time You get to the closing of the Old Testament So from Genesis To Malachi, the

Italian prophet So But there are

No Pharisees, there are no Pharisees Mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament They arise during the intertestamental

Period, and their claim Is that God When Moses went up Mount Sinai That God gave

Moses Two Torahs, one Was written and the other was oral

And that the reason why God Gave Moses the oral Torah was so that Gentiles Could never know the whole truth and therefore

Couldn't be saved, and who were the ones Who were keeping, who were the The ones guarding and teaching

The oral Torah happened to be the Pharisees And so that oral tradition Became known as the tradition

Of the elders, and it then gets later Written down into the Talmud, okay So that's its origin, so Christ here

Is now faced with a problem, so The Pharisees have come to check Jesus out They've come from headquarters in Jerusalem, and here's

Where they want to go to war This is the hill they want to Die on, Jesus is not

Allowing his disciples to obey The commandments From the oral

Torah Okay, so for instance If you read from Genesis to Malachi, you will not find any commandment

That says that when you're out Among the Goyim, that you have to wash your hands Once you come inside the house

That commandment doesn't exist So the question is, where does it come from? It comes from the oral

Torah, otherwise known as the Tradition of the elders, and it's actually It's a simple ceremony Jews still do it to this day

So if you're out among the Goyim You come into a house, there's a little wash basin

With a pitcher, and it has to Go in this specific order You begin by taking the water pitcher

Putting your left hand over the bowl Pouring water on the back Of your left hand, switching hands

Pouring water on the back of your right hand Switching hands Again, left hand up Water on that, right hand up Water on that, and then you can kind of Spritz your hands, and then you're required to Say a prayer that goes something like this

I thank you Lord God maker of heaven and earth That you have given me the command to wash my hands It's just that simple, right?

But Jesus didn't allow his disciples to obey That command, why? Because it's not Biblical, the source is in God And so You'll note, this is where the conflict is

Why are your disciples not walking According to the Tradition of the elders? That's what they say to Jesus So And it goes on to say

When the Pharisees come from the marketplace They don't eat unless they wash There are many other traditions that they observe

Such as the washing of pots, copper vessels And dining couches So the Pharisees and the scribes said to Jesus Why do your disciples not walk according to The Tradition of the elders?

Not according to the Bible, but according to the Tradition of the elders And they eat with defiled hands And so Jesus rips into them and says

Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, you hypocrites As it is written, this people honors me with their lips But their hearts are far from me

In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines The commandments of men And so here

Christ completely pans The entire Pharisaical Construct that there are two

Torahs And he says there's only one And all of those commands in your oral Torah They're man made

That's what he's saying here And then he says this You leave the commandment of God And you hold to the tradition of men

And you have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God In order to establish your tradition

For Moses said honor your father and mother Whoever reviles father and mother Must surely die That's what it says

But you say if a man tells his father or mother Whatever you would have gained from me as Corban That is a gift given to God Then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother

Thus you make void the word of God By your tradition that you have handed down And many such things you do

And I would note then that in Matthew 23 Jesus calls down woes On the

Pharisees So the whole religion of the Pharisees Christ doesn't allow his disciples

To follow the tradition of the elders All of it is man made And that then

When you have the destruction of the temple And the scattering of the Jews Out of Judea by the

Roman Empire In the early part of the 2nd century Then what happens is

It's the Pharisaical rabbis Who are the last people standing And they reinvent

Judaism without a temple And so You're going to note

The modern day Judaism we have It's not Biblical Yahwehism Because They're following these traditions

Of the elders still The Talmuds and the Mishnas And these commandments made by men

That Christ condemned And so they're engaging in rank idolatry And so The Judaism of today is not

Old Testament Yahwehism Not even close And so you have to Make that distinction

And Dr. Brown With that explanation I doubt he would deny that Because he's written quite extensively

Showing that the Oral Torah And the Talmuds are not authoritative He's a very

Vocal apologist against The use of the Talmud And so he knows what I'm saying is true

And I would just again go to Mark 7 And fact check maybe you don't believe me Sure And that's interesting because And again

I'm not sure What his motivation Was for what he said when he said Well that's what Paul thought about Paul thought they were

Jews or whatever It just seemed like an odd statement Especially coming from him And everything that you just said

Very consistent with things I'm actually preaching through the Gospel of Mark right now I'm in chapter 14 So I did chapter 7 several months ago

And said very much the same things you're saying now Which is good It was like being checked

It was like coming to school and having the professor tell me I did a good job So thank you Calvin with a

Lutheran professor That's a weird one Well you were in Nazarene And you went to a

Lutheran college So it worked out It worked out But no

It's an important question I think it leads to Part of the issue But I do want to get back now

To the Lutheran And Copeland conversation And maybe again to round everything out

And you sort of answered this When you said When we made the comparison between Joel Osteen and Hitler But there is a distinction there

And you said it yourself Hitler wasn't a pastor Hitler was a leader

Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths We know that Hitler is terrible

And to compare anyone to Hitler is bad But when you compare Luther and Osteen You are comparing a pastor to a non -pastor

But when we compare Copeland and Luther We are comparing in a sense

Apples to apples in one sense Because we're saying they're both men Who are

Standing in the pulpit They're both men who are Proclaiming the word And while we understand the issues

And you've already explained The issues with Luther And I don't think we have to Talk about the benefits of Luther I think many people

Especially if they've listened to this program They've heard me talk about the many ways In which Luther has positively impacted my ministry

And my life and certainly the Reformation As we teach on that every year In our church we celebrate October 31st as Reformation Day Hashtag no

Halloween You know But when you compare

Two ministers Who have Who both have Things that are at odds

Or at issue Obviously Luther has his issues As you said, the sins against the

Jews And other things, the peasants And even the Anabaptists And things that that pastor mentioned

That you had But when we compare that to Copeland And Brown says

Well Copeland's sins are one -tenth Or one -one -thousandth Or one -one -hundredth Or one -one -thousandth

How do you respond to that In your mind And I know my thoughts I almost get visceral

Because I see Copeland not only as a contemporary evil But I see him as a man Who I've never heard rightly articulate the gospel

And so there And I say There is no comparison in my mind

Even though And I know Luther's things There are vicious things And I know that they cannot be overlooked

Or discounted But to say that Copeland is one -one -hundredth Or one -one -thousandth of that I get a visceral reaction

But I want to hear your thoughts So there's two ways that we can Kind of look at this

Number one is By kind of addressing the comparison straight up The other is to look at the impact

That it had on the conversation at the roundtable And how rhetorically Brown was using that comparison

And I think that's where The action's at in the second one But let me kind of put it this way

And here's where the difference is Is that we are not going to Discount or try to undermine

Or dilute Luther's sins What he did was absolutely wrong And what he wrote

Was used by the Nazis To justify the murder of Six million Jews That's straight up bad

But here's the thing And I'm not apologizing for him But he was not responsible

For how people used his work Correct That again, Luther was

Writing against Judaism theologically Nazis were against Jews Based on race

And so they didn't make that distinction As a result of it, clearly the Nazis Were just looking for Any kind of words to incite people

To violence and hatred of Jews And so Luther was Conveniently used for that And I would say misused

Because Luther wasn't making a racial distinction He was making a religious one But all that being said

This is where Michael Brown's failure to make Distinctions comes into play handily

So I would say Luther clearly is an erring brother Because he's still holding

To the gospel, he still preached the gospel And historically everybody knows That he's the guy who recovered

The gospel from all the papering over That Rome had done to it So is he a sinner?

Yes Is his sin the type that puts him outside Of the faith? No Luther didn't teach a different spirit

A different Jesus or a different gospel All the way to his death he held to those Kenneth Copeland is not

An erring brother Kenneth Copeland is legitimately By all standards biblical

He doesn't pass the test of even being a brother He is a wolf And he is a heretic

Who teaches a different spirit A different Jesus and a different gospel Not just one of those but all three of those

And as a result of that He is not an erring brother He is a demonic heretic

Teaching Doctrines of demons And so to compare the two

Is to compare apples and oranges Because one clearly Is a brother who's erring

And the other isn't And because Michael Brown can't make that Distinction that's why that's not

Working out helpfully Because you'll know over and again His missing distinction Always referring to people as erring brothers

With the exception of Luther It doesn't work out And then if you look at How this then plays out rhetorically

How this argument was used In the round table I think that's the more interesting aspect of this

Because Michael Brown Used it as a way of deflecting Rather than addressing

And so In fact in logic We have these things called logical fallacies

What he engaged in Is known as the logical fallacy Of Tu Quoc Quo Which is basically well you also

And so the idea here Is if I were to say something like You are aware that Joel Osteen You know he preaches a different gospel

And he mishandles the bible And somebody says well you're not perfect How much time do you spend in the gym

It doesn't look like you're very healthy Rose bro And so How often

I go to the gym Has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Joel Osteen is teaching heresy

And so what happened is Is that Brown used that Argument to accuse

Falsely Ostman and Justin Peters Of having a double standard Of using different weights and measures

And things like this Because they weren't condemning Luther And they were condemning Copeland But it's a deflection tactic

And it's engaging in a logical fallacy And it has nothing to do

With the question at hand And so Michael Brown I have noted Is really skilled at using

Fallacies, logical fallacies To obfuscate And that's a word he doesn't like me using

But that's what he does To obfuscate and to blur clear distinctions In scripture

And as a result of it He ends up giving cover To false prophets and false teachers

Rather than properly calling them out And silencing them As the scriptures require us to do Well that's very important And everything you just said

Watching it, you're right When you watch the 4 hour video It's like that's the shield

Luther becomes the shield You can say Well Kenneth Copeland's a false teacher Well so is

Martin Luther Well so is Martin Luther Or not a false teacher But has these sins

And it's almost like we're not going to address These things And I want to say this from the other side

I have a special place For Sam Storms I'm an

Amillennialist I think you're an Amillennialist too I appreciate the work

Sam has done In Amillennialism I've taught on it recently And have benefited from some of his writings

And different things And I'm thankful for him And I was surprised at some of what he was saying too Almost in defense of these men

And the thing that I kept hearing was Well I haven't done the research I haven't listened to the I mean does it really take that long

To realize that these guys are a cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs I mean does it really take that long To realize that these guys are dangerous

I mean you don't have to spend Days reading Or looking It's right in front of your face

And I would note In the conversation Sam Storms and Michael Brown Were in the presence of two men

Who have done the research Justin Peters has done How many thousands or tens of thousands

Of hours on Men like Copeland And others And he has the receipts

He's produced them in context And they are all there And so This is kind of a good way to put it

Is that if we're to behave Like the body of Christ And that means is that God Creates different members of the body

To do particular things So that we can function as a body So you're going to know I don't critique

Certain people because That's just not in my wheelhouse And not within my gifting set

So I kind of focus on kind of the Seeker driven charismatic and charismatic NAR kind of stuff

Because other aspects of Aberrant theology I just don't have the training or the research

To be able to make an opinion on it So when somebody has done the research I can point to their receipts

And say they've done a good job So what Michael Brown and Sam Storms Should have done is recognize

That Justin Peters Is an expert on these things And that the research that he's done is impeccable

And as a result of his Conclusions should be Considered to be good ones

Unless they can find evidence to the contrary And you know He produced evidence

Okay, during the round table Justin Peters Showed the video

Of Todd White manipulating That kid's feet In order to make it look like his feet

Were growing and you know what Sam Storms said I don't care I saw it

And you don't know this about me I'm a former magician I worked as a professional magician for years

And that was just something I did before Becoming a pastor And I know

How magic works I was actually You know Houdini His real name was

Eric Weiss Houdini's desire was to find Someone who did real medium work

Because when his mother died He desired to see someone who could contact His mother from beyond the grave

And he went from medium to medium to medium And what he found was all of these supposed mediums Were using the same tricks he used

As a magician In the tents that he would go into And they were ringing bells with their feet

And they were calling Oh that's the I'm going to bring that up As a magician

I know what Todd White is doing I don't need the guy's video because I can do it too I know how to make that Manipulation happen

And again I mean this Seems like a departure I know what sleight of hand is and I know how it works

And that is exactly what he's doing It's a sleight of hand trick And for Sam to say

Well I don't know if that's really a trick And then to say I don't care That was a hard thing for me And again

I don't mean to get Too impassioned But again as a former magician Know exactly what's going on Can see it for myself

Don't need somebody to tell me what's going on I don't need the other guy's video I know and I just get worked up over that So when they're given the receipts

They still don't care And the thing is They absolutely should care about this

When you're given irrefutable evidence That this isn't a miracle That this is manipulation It's a parlor trick

Then that means that Todd White is intentionally deceiving In the name of Christ But here's the thing

Jesus makes it clear that Satan is the father of lies And that when he lies

He's speaking his native language And so Christ says When you abide in his word

You will know the truth And the truth will set you free Christianity is antithetical to lies

And nobody Who is in Christianity Can use lies for the purpose

Of proclaiming Christ's truth Because that's to mix Satanism With Christianity and the two don't go together

And so when somebody's intentionally deceiving Like that All in order to say We're going to give glory to Jesus When in fact who does the glory really go to?

It goes to Todd White Because oh man look at how he's able to operate in God's power And he's super special and he's anointed

And he can do all this kind of stuff We're not talking about Jesus anymore now We're talking about Todd White Which shows the exact reason why these people are so dangerous

Because they don't lead us to Christ They lead us away from him Absolutely And again

When you hear I don't care It's a stab to the heart

And when you see The Brown said this

He says well how do you know that guy's back Wasn't really healed And in my mind I was like Because it was a trick

That's how I know Because I have eyeballs They work Well Chris I want to react to what you just said

Because I want to point something out here Michael Brown says How do you know that that guy wasn't healed That's also a logical fallacy

Let me explain why Because we know You can't prove a negative You can only prove a positive

And by him saying to Justin Peters and Jim Osmond How do you know

He wasn't healed No we don't have to prove that he wasn't You have to prove that he was

That's right And so What he's doing is again a logical fallacy

Trying to make it our responsibility To prove a negative When in fact it's his responsibility

To prove a positive My immediate question would be to him Is what evidence do you have to support

The fact that he was really healed Through this parlor trick It's obvious it was a parlor trick Because you can see the hand manipulation going on there

So a lot of people lose track of this idea That he didn't actually give an argument

Because he was trying to make Jim and Justin Peters prove a negative It's his responsibility If he disagrees to actually prove

That the miracle took place Yeah Well I have one final question for you

Chris And this is just Something that I was interested To hear them say

At least Sam I heard Sam say throughout the course No one has the gift of healing

It's just healings And he made that distinction of the plural That it's only healings

And it comes upon certain individuals at certain times But it's no one that has the gift of healing Remember that when he said that?

Oh yeah In your ministry Have you experienced

Personally Seeing someone Be prayed for And God working miraculously in their life

I'm not talking about somebody being slapped And fall over But even as a person who would probably identify as a cessationist

You would still say That God is working miraculously And you've probably seen things that you could say

Can only be attributed to the power of God I have legitimately seen a miraculous answer to prayer I'll tell you the story

So this was early into my pastor There was a gal at our church Who came down with sepsis

She had Like a problem in her intestines And she didn't even know she had it

And by the time they figured it out She was like this close to death And so I got the call

That you need to go and see her in the hospital And so I went to visit her Pray with her, bring her the

Lord's Supper And At that point when I visited her

The doctors were saying She might have 24 to 36 hours to live That's how bad her condition was

And so What do we do? We prayed for her We prayed with her Preparing her to meet

Jesus Because the chances of her meeting Jesus were pretty high And I kid you not

God answered our prayers And healed her And 24 hours later she was released from the hospital

Amen And I think Go ahead

I've seen God heal So don't tell me God doesn't heal Now do I have the gift of healing? No And that's where I think

And that's where I think As people who might be identified as cessationists Or with the more cessationist bent

I do think there's a spectrum sometimes Of you know Some people are more cessationist than others

Some people are more charismatic than others Then you have the hyper view probably on both sides But I think as God is still miraculous

We're still supernaturalists We still believe in the supernatural I think that's accused of the cessationist side

Is that we've given up the supernatural And I know I haven't I know that God is still working And He's working in the supernatural

Amen, that's absolutely true God's still absolutely doing miraculous and supernatural things

For sure Absolutely Well brother I want to thank you for coming on the show today And sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us

And just being a great guest I appreciate it I wanted to thank you

And also if you could take just a moment And remind everyone how they can follow you Get in touch with you Or be a part of what you're doing at Pirate Christian Radio So the easiest way is to actually

Find my YouTube channel and subscribe And then our contact information is there So if you go on to YouTube just type in Chris Roseborough Fighting for the

Faith And you should find my channel And subscribe And put the notification on And then if you need to email me

All of our contact information is always in the description for every video So Great Well brother

I want to thank you again For being a part of the show And again hopefully you'll come see me again

Sometime in the future I would welcome the invite back That would be fun Great thank you

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