Is Martin Luther WORSE than Kenneth Copeland? (with Guest Chris Rosebrough)

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Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me

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And welcome to Your Calvinist Podcast My name is Keith Foskey And as always, I am your

01:14

Calvinist I'm excited today to welcome my guest, Chris Roseberg He's going to be with us in just a moment

01:19

But before I do that, I do have a few housekeeping things I'd like to bring up before we bring him on Number one,

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YouTube link below And you can buy shirts from our shirt store We have Superior Theology shirts, Five Point Calvinism shirts

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And all that good stuff as well So again, thank you for being a part of the show And I'm going to bring on my guest today

02:16

Someone I'm excited to speak to Someone I've known about and listened to for years And have finally had the opportunity to talk to him in person

02:23

Chris Roseberg of Pirate Christian Radio Chris, thank you for being on the show today Thanks for having me on,

02:30

Keith Absolutely And I want to say just by way of letting you know

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I have listened to your program for years I used to do security at downtown

02:40

Jacksonville So I had a long trip driving in, driving back And I would do security late at night So I listened to you for hours and hours and hours at a time

02:47

And I have always found your show to be very encouraging You always pointed out the good stuff and the bad stuff

02:54

And oftentimes were helpful for me At being able to make that distinction

02:59

Between who the good guys are and who the bad guys are So I have been very thankful for that And you're funny as well

03:06

So I appreciate that Well, thank you I'm glad that I didn't totally destroy you

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So that's good No I do also want to thank your son He's the one who

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I connected with And he got us together And I'm hoping to have him on at some point in the future We've talked about doing something together

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He's a bright young man And I understand he's part of the ministry there At Pirate Christian Radio What does he do for you guys?

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He's our video editor And kind of the mastermind of things that we should be doing next Once I got old

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I started not paying attention to Where the new things are supposed to be happening And so my son tries to keep pushing me into the present

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Because I keep falling into the past I understand that Before we get to our topic

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And we're going to be talking about an interaction That you recently had with Dr. Michael Brown Regarding the

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American Gospel video Where he and Jim Osman And Sam Storms and Justin Peters Had a conversation about cessationism and continuationism

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Before we get to that though Just for the sake of my audience I love to talk to Especially pastors from other denominations

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Men who have perhaps differing convictions But at the same time

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I believe we love the Lord And we share a gospel And we're proclaiming that gospel I want to ask you

04:28

How you became a Lutheran Because personally I love Martin Luther And not just the bondage of the will

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I know Calvinists are accused Of only liking one thing he ever wrote And that was it But I do love much about Luther Every year we celebrate

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Reformation Day And I do a little Lutheran conversation With our church about his history And the things that happened in his life

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And why I appreciate him as a Not a perfect man But as an important person in history

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So what is your How did you become a Lutheran? Were you born into it? Or were you brought into it by conviction?

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Can you tell us that story? Sure I'm a Lutheran against my will That's the best way

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I can put it So you want to talk about the bondage of the will I got drug into this By Christ So I was

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I was initially Raised Roman Catholic However my parents divorced

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When I was at a young age And both of them were excommunicated From the Roman Catholic Church And so from the time of their divorce

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Until you know The rest of my childhood really The only contact I had with the

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Roman Catholic Church Was through my grandparents And my grandmother anytime I would stay with her She wanted to go to the

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Latin Mass Which means I didn't understand the thing that was going on Because I don't know Latin And so I just learned that when you are

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In a Roman Catholic Church And they're doing the Latin Mass If everybody stands up you stand up If they sit down you sit down If they kneel you kneel

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And you do it quickly Otherwise your grandma boxes your ears If you've never had that done to you Then you are blessed

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So My interaction with Christ And the Gospel was

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Completely Not there at all And as a result of that I was kind of Ankle tackled

06:20

Regarding the Gospel and became a Christian For real When I first heard the

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Gospel At a Free Methodist Junior High School That I was attending My parents had put me there

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And I heard the Gospel for the first time Never heard it in Rome Because all I heard was Latin And heard the

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Gospel for the first time It wrecked me And I can legitimately say that that is a huge Turning point in my life

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But my then catechism Into Christianity Was based upon Very legalistic, self -righteous

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Wesleyan kind of doctrines Through the Free Methodist Church and the Nazarene Church And unfortunately

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Despite both of those Denominations having a Confession that they believe in Jesus And they believe in Jesus for the forgiveness

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Of our sins, the way their theology Plays out, they put such a heavy Emphasis on the law, and the

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Gospel Kind of falls into the wayside So when I was in Nazarene, the primary Doctrine, the primary text

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That was the center of all of our preaching And teaching was from the Gospel of Matthew Be ye perfect as your

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Father in Heaven is perfect Well I don't need to explain to you That going through puberty

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And being perfect Leads to very different results from perfection And as a

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Result of that Really created Turmoil and conflict in my life

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And then by the time I Graduated from high school My girlfriend

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Who I dated through high school, who would then Become my wife, we both felt That we weren't being serious enough

07:54

About our Christianity And so we decided to Dive headfirst into Pentecostal Charismania Into what's called the

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Lateran Movement And we spent nearly a year There, and then the best way I can say it is God graciously delivered us out of that But coming out of that we felt very

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Betrayed and we didn't know Which way was up And one of the things my wife said

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After we had, because we were under a Prophetess, and this prophetess I mean she had so much control

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Over us that I had to like give her my Paycheck every two weeks and then she would Give us a small amount to live on, that's how much

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Control this group had over us So when we came out Of that feeling very betrayed

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My wife says, where do we go now? And I said, well I think the Bible is true but I'm Pretty sure we don't know what it means because In high school if we attended

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A small group Bible study The conversations would generally go So let's read a verse and then let's

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Go around The room and Have everybody answer the question

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What does this verse mean to you? Which is like no way of arriving at what the Scriptures actually say or mean

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And as a result of that We had a lot Of enthusiasm but Biblical knowledge

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Like this much And so after we got out of that I began doing countercult apologetic

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Works To try to minister to Jehovah's Witnesses And I found that I kind of Really took to countercult

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Apologetics, it was something that I understood And because I was still Trying to process what had gone wrong in our life

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That This was some way of like helping me Kind of figure out what the Bible actually teaches

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It was then that I actually had One conversation with the late Walter Martin and told him about my love

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For countercult apologetics and asked him what I should Do if I wanted to study this formally And he told me that we needed to move

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To Southern California And attend Christ College Irvine And I'm to study apologetics

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Under Dr. Rod Rosenblatt Rosenblatt is famous for the White Horse Inn And in fact

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When I was at Christ College That's when the first pilot episodes Of the

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White Horse Inn were first being recorded By Rosenblatt And Horton and Riddlebarger So I did what

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Walter Martin Told me to do, I went to a Lutheran University And when I first got there I thought I had made the worst decision

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Of my life because As a Nazarene you spend a lot of time Putting paint on the facade of your

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Righteousness And you can't really be open about What you're struggling with as far as sins

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Or things like this because then Your whole salvation comes into question And Rosenblatt He was an earthy fellow

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Best way I can put it And I was really put off By him and I had

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Overloaded my coursework, my first quarters At Christ College Irvine Which then became Concordia University I had overloaded my coursework with his classes

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And at the end of every class I was thinking How am I supposed to learn Christian apologetics

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From a man who clearly isn't saved Because he's not even trying to be saved And what

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Rosenblatt was famous For was his complete Trust in the Finished work of Christ for the forgiveness of his sins

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And one of the things That he was really, really on about Was he would get a lot of Flack for working with Calvinists And Rosenblatt basically says

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Listen, when it comes to the self -righteousness Of Rome The Wesleyans Are on the same side of the spectrum as Rome is and so many

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Wesleyans And Nazarenes are functionally Roman Catholic But he says the only Two opposing groups

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That are preaching law and gospel And actually proclaiming The sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice

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On the cross for our sins He says the only two groups that are opposing Those other groups

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Are the Lutherans and the Calvinists And so he considered us to be Foxhole buddies

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Although we couldn't attend the same churches He had such a high regard for Calvinism That he would never draw

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Swords against the Calvinists Is the best way I can put it And so I kind of keep my

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Sword sheathed when it comes To the Calvinists and I get a little bit of But that's something I learned from Rosenblatt But anyway, so I'm now exposed

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To Lutherans for the first time At Christ College Irvine And I'm put off by them

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But the one thing I keep hearing from them All and especially Rosenblatt Is that salvation

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Is by grace through faith Alone. It is not by Works. It is a gift of God It is not something that you earn

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It is all by the merits of Christ And I'm struggling Every time

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I hear this Because my entire Nazarene training Was the gospel

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Is something that you hear Before you make a decision for Jesus And then you just gotta get busy

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On the rat wheel of good works Because you can't You can't trust that Christ Has really done it all for you

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Obviously there's something you gotta do To earn it. So I was very suspicious of the gospel And I remember going up to Rosenblatt One time after class and saying to him

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Rosenblatt, if what you're saying is true That salvation is totally a free gift And it's by the merits of Christ And there's nothing we can do to earn our salvation

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You're telling me I can do whatever I want Which actually says a lot about me And nothing about him

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Because I was hearing About the free forgiveness of sins Is somehow a license to sin when it wasn't

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And so Rosenblatt, without even skipping a beat Looks at me and goes, well of course Chris He says now that Christ has set you free

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From slavery to sin, death, and the devil What do you want to do? I went, uh, what?

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Uh, uh Let me get back to you on that I did not expect that answer So while all of that's going on I have my colleagues

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At Christ College Irvine Now I was getting better grades than all of them And we were in a highly competitive

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You know, in a highly competitive school This is old school stuff Grades are posted and people know

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Who's top in the class I was besting all of the Lutherans And I was still a

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Nazarene It was annoying them And so from time to time they would Basically decide to go after me

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Because I knew where my weaknesses were And my weakness was on the gospel But also on the sacraments

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And I know that we're going to have a disagreement here But you'll have to kind of hear me out And so one of them

14:23

Tossed over a Greek New Testament And he said, hey Roseboro Yeah, what's baptism about?

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Well, baptism is the thing that you do To show the world that you've made a decision for Jesus And so he says, well, there's your

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Greek New Testament Show me where that is in the Bible And I said, well, it's in there somewhere Where? I don't know where, but it's there

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Well, don't you have a chapter and verse? No. Well, what about the text in 1 Peter That says baptism now saves you?

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I said, well, it doesn't mean that Well, what does it mean? I don't know what it means But it doesn't mean that And so This is the kind of conversations we're having

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And it was just annoying But I put on a brave front Fighting these stupid, staunch

15:02

Lutherans Because they're quasi -Roman Catholics Who clearly don't know Latin And I put on a fight for a couple of years

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And then my third year At Concordia University I was taking a Greek readings course And our professor,

15:16

Pastor Brighton He assigned for us To translate through the entire book of Titus That's a pretty good subject

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And so about October of that Year I have a bad habit of procrastinating

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So I was translating My homework late at night And I came across Titus chapter 3

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And so I'm translating And when you get to verse 4 It says, when the goodness and loving kindness

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Of God our Savior appeared He saved us Not because of works done

15:48

By us in righteousness But according to his own mercy By the washing of regeneration

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And the renewal of the Holy Spirit And so I'm translating this text And here it's clearly saying

15:59

We are not saved by any works done by us And I'm Obviously having a

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PTSD moment Just with that, because it's like Every time I'm opening a biblical text It's exactly what these

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Lutherans are saying That God has saved us He can't earn your salvation But then it gets to a dia clause

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In the Greek And it talks about the means by which He then regenerates us

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And it talks about the washing of regeneration And so It says dia lutru polygonesis

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In the Greek And so I looked up the word lutru It's the Greek word lutron And when you look it up, it's talking about a ceremonial washing

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The only thing it could be referring to is baptism And I said, no That's just not right

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And so I went and found a different lexicon

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I had to go into my office To grab it and pulled it out And sure enough, it's the same thing And when

16:55

I saw that, I realized You know what, the Lutherans are right They're right about salvation being by grace

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Through faith alone And I know this is going to be challenging But they're also right about the fact that sacraments

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Are not mere symbols of something Of a decision that you've made But sacraments are actually means

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By which God is doing something for us You could almost describe it as God individually applying the gospel

17:18

To a human being And so After exegeting that text And translating it

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At that point I gave up I said, that's it, I'm a Lutheran I'm defeated

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And so when my wife woke up the next morning I said, well honey, we're Lutherans She said, oh no, we're not

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And It took another 10 years for my wife to warm up to Lutheranism, but that came

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Just through patiently teaching Her the word of God So that's how I'm a

17:49

Lutheran I'm a Lutheran against my will Well awesome Maybe one day

17:55

It would be fun For us to have a conversation about baptism I would wonder where, because I don't take

18:02

The typical Baptist view of It's an outward shoving inwards Change kind of thing, which is a typical

18:08

Baptist, I do believe baptism Has an important connection To salvation, I may not see it as causal

18:14

As you do in the sense of Bringing about regeneration, but I think That there's a tie there that Baptists often

18:20

Miss, and so I do think it would be A worthwhile conversation And not to change

18:25

Can't change the direction today But I love the fact that You came to your convictions through studying

18:32

Scripture, and that's what I think we should all do We should study the word of God It's interesting because I don't meet too many people

18:40

Who came out of the Nazarene Background, one of my favorite teachers in school Was a Nazarene, and so I have a

18:46

Somewhat positive connection through him, because I loved Him, and he was my favorite teacher And I actually did his funeral

18:52

We stayed friends after school And were friends for 20 years, but he was A Nazarene, and so it's interesting

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To hear your background With that. My church I'm in the same church

19:03

I passed through the church I grew up in, which is funny But our church used to be part of Our church used to be part of the

19:09

Disciples of Christ, if that gives you Wow, okay You're on a journey yourself

19:16

Too, holy smokes Yeah, to go from that to a Reformed Baptist church Wow That's a wild change

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And again, story for another time But definitely It's amazing what God Can do as He works through Our lives and shows us

19:32

His grace And the one thing I know you and I Agree 100 % on, and that is we are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone

19:39

And unified In that. It's important to note This, that the Lutherans oftentimes get Charged with the belief that because we believe

19:46

God does something in baptism, that somehow That's contrary to The doctrine of salvation by Grace through faith alone, apart from works

19:54

Baptism isn't our work Baptism is God's And so we have to make that Distinction, and I would even note,

20:02

I would challenge People who kind of wrestle with that Go back and do a careful reading of Titus 3 You know, especially

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Verses 4 and 5 and 6 And you can see How Paul makes a big distinction between The washing and regeneration and works

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The two are completely In different categories altogether So, you know, this is

20:22

Exegetically, this is where the Lutherans Go with that, so Oh, cool. Well, I appreciate you sharing that I'm going to take one minute to Bring up something for our audience, and we'll be right

20:32

Back to talk about Dr. Michael Brown Hey guys, I just want to quickly say Thank you for watching this episode, and if you're

20:38

Enjoying it, please hit the thumbs up button If you're not enjoying it, hit the thumbs down button Twice Also, if you haven't already, please subscribe to The channel, it really helps us out

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Slash your Calvinist and leave a donation Most importantly, we want to make sure That everybody who hears this podcast

20:59

Hears the gospel. The word gospel Means good news, and that good news Has to be preceded by some bad news

21:06

And the bad news is this That we are all sinners. Sin is Breaking God's law, so we stand guilty

21:12

Before the Lord of the universe But the good news is, God sent his son Into the world to pay the penalty for Everyone who would believe in him

21:20

Jesus came into the world, lived a Perfect life, and he died a substitutionary Death for everyone who will believe

21:25

And he calls us all to repent of our Sin, to turn from our unbelief And trust in him as Lord And Savior.

21:32

And if you've never done that I encourage you to do so today Now back to the show Alright Chris, thank you for your patience on that And again, if there's anybody in the audience

21:43

Who's heard that message and wants to Have a dialogue about it, or maybe you have a further Question, always feel free to email me

21:49

At calvinispodcast at gmail Dot com. So Chris, recently you had an interaction with Dr.

21:55

Michael Brown on the subject Of the relationship Between Martin Luther and the

22:01

Jews And particularly about Martin Luther and Kenneth Copeland Of all people, which

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I found interesting And that was my reason for reaching out To you. I have some short Video clips.

22:12

I would like to just If it's okay with you, I'd like to play a Quick clip that brings in the conversation

22:17

This was what Was the initial call with you and Dr. Brown. I've only got one minute

22:23

It's a 13 minute video, but I've only got one minute of it Just so people get a context of what's going on And this is

22:29

What Michael Brown's contention is And It was a four hour video

22:34

The American Gospel put out. If you haven't seen it, it is available Online. And in that video, he made The claim that Martin Luther's sins

22:41

Against the Jewish people are Hundreds if not thousands of times Worse than Kenneth Copeland's sins

22:46

Against The people of God today. And I just Produced a video that we'll get out as soon as we can

22:55

Where I flatly And openly rebuke American Gospel And Chris Rosevearl For putting out a video downplaying

23:03

The severity of the Sins of Martin Luther And claim when I quoted him

23:08

I was misquoting him or taking Him out of context And these were not things he needed to Repent of, to be in right relationship

23:17

With God And have eternal life, etc. It's utterly reprehensible

23:23

Why do I bring it up? I bring it up because These very same people Will blast a charismatic leader

23:29

For a sin That is one hundredth the severity Of Luther's And has had one thousandth

23:37

The effect of Luther's sin Because the Nazis used those And put a lot of his strategies

23:42

Into practice. Alright, that's the context of this conversation

23:48

And You put out, he's actually Responding to a video that you did

23:54

You did a video, so there was The four hour video And you did your video in response

24:00

To that, your video was in response To that talking about Luther and trying To contextualize

24:05

Luther And then he comes and he responds And then you call in and respond to him So there's been a lot of back and forth

24:13

But the first Question I have for you, maybe I get you to Spend some time with this Are you in any way trying to Whitewash or Or Simply overlook the sins

24:26

Of Martin Luther? No, not at all. Let's just be blunt What Martin Luther called for The burning of synagogues and the killing of rabbis

24:34

Is sinful That is not Something that Christians are to be about The business of doing

24:39

And I would note by Lutheran standards It's a breaking of the commandment that says You shall not murder, and also

24:46

I would note That Martin Luther in his Anti -Semitic writings Was guilty of breaking the commandment

24:53

That says you shall not Bear false testimony Against your neighbor. I know a little bit

24:58

About this because last year About this time last year, I got involved In a protracted, multi -month long

25:05

Debate with Bonafide, modern day Nazis And People who are embracing

25:13

Anti -Semitism and calling For the establishment of white Christian nationalism here in the

25:18

United States And the deportation Of all Jews, of all people Of color, and Creating the

25:25

United States into A white European ethno -state Is basically what they want to do

25:30

And they call that a Christian nation And so as a result of that Protracted Debate with these fellows and Argument with them,

25:39

I ended up reading Martin Luther's, you know, On the Jews And Their Lies, and Had to do some further research to Kind of unpack what it is that I was reading

25:49

There, and so I have A perspective On his writings

25:54

Based upon, one, reading what Luther wrote, two Looking at Those Jewish scholars

26:02

Who have rebutted the Claims of anti -Semites And knowing then where These arguments came from and what

26:10

Actually happened to Luther, and so In putting him back into his historical Context, it's

26:15

What I'm basically saying is that we're Not going to justify his sins What we are going to do is try to Understand where they came from And what led to these sins

26:26

And there's Also a very specific reason why I said that, you know,

26:32

Luther, it wasn't really necessary For him to cognitively repent of that Particular sin for his salvation

26:38

That's not a requirement of Salvation. We're not Roman Catholics where we say That in order to have a sin

26:44

Forgiven, you have to remember it Openly confess it, and then Receive, you know, A blessing from the

26:52

Priest saying, I absolve you We don't have to do that So when it comes to confession

26:57

It is sufficient to say, I repent Of all sins, and sadly Scripture teaches that there are sins

27:03

That we engage in that we're not Cognitive of, and so Sin runs so deep

27:09

Inside of us as a result of our Corruption and the fall of sin That we sin against God In ways that we're not even

27:17

Perceiving, and so I believe that Luther When you take a look at the

27:22

History of this thing and what Luther was doing I believe that Luther legitimately Thought that he was protecting

27:28

The gospel and Christianity From what he perceived as A very deadly threat

27:35

To Christianity But it was based upon propaganda That he had read about what the

27:40

Jews Believe and what they confess And as a result of that His reaction was prompted

27:46

By virtue, but his virtue Was turned into a vice And so this is something that we

27:52

Have to be cognitive of So putting it back into its historical context Number one, Luther was

27:58

Part of the Holy Roman Empire And he had a Christian monarch And he lived in a time

28:04

When this is the closest Thing you're going to get to A Christian nation, Christian nationalism

28:10

And as a result of it, there is no Separation of church and state, and he believed That it was the job of the monarch

28:15

To punish all evildoers Not only evildoers that are Committing civil crimes, but also evildoers

28:22

That he believes are a threat To the church, so he Believes the job of the prince

28:27

Is to punish both sides Now we live in a nation where there's The separation of church and state

28:33

And as a result of it, we've grown up In this context where You can be a good citizen of the

28:39

United States And be an atheist, you can be a good citizen Of the United States and be a Calvinist or a Lutheran Or a

28:44

Jew or a Roman Catholic Your status Within the

28:49

United States Is not in jeopardy If you believe in any of these religions

28:54

Or none of these religions But that was not the case In Martin Luther's poem It was a completely different thing altogether

29:01

And so that's primary assumption Number one, but number two Is the question of what was he reacting

29:07

Against, so Luther Unlike the Nazis of The past as well as the present

29:13

Was not knocking the Jews On a racial issue In fact, in his writings against The Jews, he

29:21

Legitimately rebukes Judaism For somehow thinking that they have A superior race among humanity

29:27

Because they are direct descendants of Abraham So you'll note that When you actually read

29:33

Luther's Writings, and they're hard to read I've got to admit, it's not a glorious read It's a terrible read

29:38

When you read it, you recognize Okay, he's not going after them racially Whereas the Nazis of the past They were

29:45

Engaging in was a form of anti -Semitism Based primarily first on race But second then on this other narrative

29:52

This narrative about There being this secret Jewish cabal To run the world

29:57

And to financially control everybody And all this kind of stuff, and on top of it There's misinformation about Jews Like for instance, that Jews Three times a day curse

30:07

Christianity No, they don't That somehow the Talmud's Given okay to pedophiles

30:13

No, it doesn't And so what happens is that there's a lot of Misinformation as it relates

30:20

To what it is the Jews believe And what they are doing, and as a result Of it, you create this

30:26

Straw man, boogeyman Of this evil Jew who's trying to take over The world, who's engaged in Pedophilia and cursing

30:35

Christ And Christianity three times a day And nothing could be further from the truth These are all lies

30:41

But if you read the propaganda and you believe it And then you react and say We've got to protect

30:46

Christianity You'll note then that what happens Is that your inherent

30:51

Drive to Stand up for the honor of Christ To stand up against the

30:57

Enemies of Christianity Is then used It's actually weaponized

31:02

Because your focus is on something that's wrong And I believe that that's what's happened to Luther And so, again, it doesn't

31:09

Justify what he did What he said was unjustifiable Because there's a big difference between saying

31:15

Listen, modern day Jews That's the religion of the Pharisees That is currently in its modern form

31:21

But that's where it comes from And they oppose Christianity, the Gospel And they deny that Christ is the

31:27

Messiah We need to evangelize them And engage them in conversation So that they can repent

31:33

That's one thing But to then say, well, because they do these things We need to burn their synagogues

31:38

And kill their rabbis No The church Is not given the task

31:47

Of preaching the Gospel And making disciples So we'll note that's where Luther Crossed the line

31:53

And where he was reacting against What he believed Judaism teaches

31:59

I mean, that's all well and good But some of what he believed that Judaism Was teaching is not what they believe

32:04

And so I would actually point people to, of all things A book written by Michael Brown Against antisemitism

32:10

Where he actually shows How the Talmud is misinterpreted And that people who say that Jews believe these things

32:17

Do not rightly understand How to interpret the Talmud And so, as a result of that They're erring

32:25

And so We still have the same temptation today And I would say many of those Who have bought into the false narrative

32:33

That is now re -arising From modern day Nazism With a regeneration

32:40

Of antisemitism And Christians Falling for this stuff They need to take about 10 steps back

32:47

And ask the question Do Jews really believe these things? That being a pedophile is okay?

32:53

That they curse Christianity Three times a day? They don't. It's actually slanderous to say that they do.

32:59

And so the problem is Is that the propaganda against The Jews Is legitimately slanderous

33:07

In what they believe and confess And as a result of it, you'll note That when you propagate those lies

33:13

You actually make it harder To reach Jews with the Gospel Rather than easier In the video

33:21

The video that you produced There was a gentleman A video slid in And I think it was a

33:28

Lutheran pastor I'm not even sure it was a sermon I think it looked like some kind of address That was

33:34

Dr. Rod Rosenblatt My mentor And what he said I think was very helpful

33:39

Because he was saying There were sins that Luther did And there were sins in the history of the church

33:45

He even talked about The aggressive attacks Against the Anabaptists and different things

33:51

I was thankful to hear him say that Obviously these are historical things That we all have to look back to And everyone has to deal with different things

33:58

As a Calvinist I hear the name Servetus comes up quite a bit Because of the issue with that And I think we too quickly dismiss

34:08

The fact that yes This was a bad thing And we need to address it as it was

34:13

And not whitewash it But at the same time looking at it Within its historical context Does change the view

34:18

Because these are men as you noted Who are living in a Christian national world

34:24

Where we are not currently Even though there are people who want us to be And for a moment I would like to ask you

34:30

To speak to that because I understand You do have some thoughts And again I don't want to take us too far to the right

34:35

But on this issue of the current trends in Christian nationalism You would see a distinction

34:40

I would think Between certain brands of people Who are wanting to see a Christian nation Versus white

34:46

Christian nationalism And things like that You would see a distinction there Yeah Unfortunately some of the leaders

34:54

Within the Christian national movement I think that they Are guilty at times of partnering

35:01

With these white Christian nationalist guys And or not making proper distinctions Or distancing themselves from them

35:07

And they really need to reconsider that Because Nazism is not Is not anybody's friend

35:13

It is a horrible Murderous ideology And it's not compatible with Christianity In any way shape or form

35:21

So let's just make that clear And there is a difference Between Nazis and anti -Semites

35:27

I mean there is a distinction you have to make between them But Nazis Fascism itself

35:34

Oddly enough It comes from Marxism It's kind of a weird form of Marxism Taking on a very weird view

35:43

Regarding how humanity works In their system Individuals don't exist

35:48

The only thing that exists is the organic community And so That's why there is no such thing

35:54

As individual rights within Nazism And that's one of the reasons Why they call themselves National Socialists They were legitimately

36:00

That's a Marxist ideology It's a weird morphing of Marxist ideology

36:06

So when it comes to Marxism and Fascism They are actually two sides of the same coin

36:11

And I would note Christianity isn't on that coin So you run away from both of those

36:17

But you do have to make a distinction Between today's White Christian Nationalists Which are basically kind of glorified skinheads

36:24

And people Who really Desire to live in a Christian nation

36:30

I understand that impetus But if you want to live in a Christian nation Then we better start turning on the gospel a lot

36:36

And going out and preaching the gospel Because you have to make people into Christians In order to have a Christian nation

36:41

I'm just saying Good thought And an important thought I think that's part of what we need to be talking about What do we mean

36:51

And what do these terms mean Well, when we talk about The thing that bothered me

36:57

Maybe more than anything And obviously I had a lot of issues With that four hour video I sat through the whole thing And I usually don't have time in my life

37:05

To donate four hours to anything Outside of studying for preaching I am a pastor And I spend most of my time during the week

37:12

Preparing for Sunday and working with the church and ministry And this is just a happy hobby that I get to do

37:17

Is the online ministry And The thing that I noted though In the four hour video

37:23

Was this comparison Between Luther And Copeland And the statement that was made in the video

37:32

And then in the video with you Was that Luther's sins somehow are Hundreds or thousands of times

37:38

More dangerous than Copeland's sins And later in the video And for those who haven't seen it, it's available

37:45

You can go see it Later in the video Justin Justin Peters He said that it's going to be worse

37:56

On the Day of Judgment for I can see his face, what's his name?

38:02

The guy in Texas, Joel Osteen It's going to be worse for Joel Osteen Than it will be for Adolf Hitler And obviously

38:09

Brown was Totally offended by that And you could tell in the video He was very unhappy by that statement

38:14

And I get it, obviously he is a man who has If you want to say In a sense skin in the game

38:21

He is a Jewish man He has Jewish family He probably has ancestors who were affected

38:26

Very directly by the Holocaust And therefore his life

38:31

He's having to address This from a very guttural

38:36

And human perspective And so him being offended I'm not upset that he gets offended by that phrase

38:42

But what are we Saying Do you agree with Justin that we should

38:48

Consider the preaching of a False gospel to be even worse Than these things or do you think we should

38:54

Look at all sin the same and just sort of just Flatten it out? What are your thoughts on that? Do you think Justin went too far? No, I don't think he went too far

39:01

And the reason being is because even Christ Makes it clear that the Day of Judgment will be easier for some people

39:08

Than for others. So for instance Jesus makes it very clear That it's going to be worse

39:14

On the Day of Judgment for the people Who were alive in his time Who heard his preaching and saw his miracles

39:19

And rejected him And that it's In fact he says that on the

39:25

Day of Judgment the people of Sodom and Gomorrah Are going to rise up and condemn them For because somebody greater than Anybody had showed up So Jesus himself makes distinctions like this

39:35

But the thing is if we're going to make distinctions Using Christ's categories We're going to have to think theologically

39:41

And really kind of Think this out So coming back then To the comparison between Adolf Hitler and Joel Osteen Adolf Hitler legitimately started

39:54

World War II and how many Tens of millions If not more than 100 million people

40:00

Lost their lives And we're going to note that that's a Horrible tragedy of the 20th century

40:06

And Picking through the rubble of the Second World War is a vital

40:11

Important part for us to be doing so we Don't make similar mistakes Or go down similar

40:17

Paths. But at the end of the day People that were Dispatched as a result of World War II A healthy number of them are going to Be Christians.

40:26

They're with Christ in eternity And so yes Hitler's sins by humanity

40:32

Standards are huge But Hitler wasn't a false preacher Now you look at somebody like Joel Osteen And his reach is to Hundreds of millions of people

40:41

Around the globe. Hundreds of millions And here's the thing is that I like to use this comparison

40:47

Is if I go to a doctor And the doctor has A bad day and I'm In surgery, the worst thing

40:55

That can happen to me is that I die You have a bad doctor, he's going to Kill you. The worst thing that can happen to you is

41:01

You're going to die. But because I'm in Christ Well I'll be with Christ so We can rejoice over that But a false

41:09

Prophet, a false Teacher, he's not Killing you physically

41:15

He's sending you to hell And so We have to start to measure these

41:21

Things in terms of Thinking in light of the day Of judgment. Granted Hitler is going to be in hell

41:29

He did not repent. He's going to Be in hell and Christ will make Sure that he suffers eternally

41:35

For all the evil that he's done This is most certainly true But the thing is is that Joel Osteen will be also there unless He repents.

41:44

Because Joel Osteen preaches a false gospel He twists God's word. He blasphemes

41:49

God's name. The religion That he preaches isn't Christianity And he's ingratiated

41:55

Himself, making bazillions of dollars In the process And he not only

42:00

Doesn't repent of his false Teaching, he legitimately goes After channels on YouTube that try to Expose his false teaching.

42:08

So I know that personally The things we have to do in order to critique Joel Osteen are ridiculous

42:15

Otherwise we could lose our channel And so If I could just interject,

42:20

I understand Mike Winger Actually was threatened with a lawsuit Because of a video.

42:26

And I don't know if you have been as well But I know he has And that, I mean, you're right Who puts out

42:32

Joel Osteen videos? Not anybody. Because you can't Say anything. So the idea

42:38

Then is that we have To reserve the hottest Regions of hell for Pastors.

42:45

I hate to say this But remember, Scripture is clear When it comes to pastors and teachers, they have a stricter Judgment.

42:51

The hottest regions of hell Are reserved for People who have Legitimately killed people's

42:59

Souls and sent people by the Droves, by the millions, into The flames of hell by their false teaching

43:05

And their false gospels. That's Where the hottest regions of hell are reserved For. So Justin, in making

43:11

That comparison, I think he's Making a valid one. Now I understand how Repugnant that would be for Michael Brown And I legitimately have empathy for him

43:19

Because, you know, you'll note That the Holocaust was Horrific. It was absolutely

43:26

Devastating to the Jewish Community on Planet Earth. And to this day, the

43:31

Number of Jews on planet Earth are not that many And just Imagine how many more there would be on planet

43:37

Earth if it hadn't been for Hitler And so When you play the Hitler card, understand

43:43

That regardless of how Or when you play it, you're playing A card that is going to not only

43:49

Be used for intellectual purposes But it's going to invoke emotion And so you need to be prepared

43:55

For a backlash If the person who Hears you playing the

44:01

Hitler Card is offended By the use of it, and they have Family reasons why to be

44:07

So like I said, I have absolute Empathy for Michael Brown, but My concern then is

44:13

Something along these lines, is that Michael Brown My big concern with him

44:18

Is that he doesn't have a category In his thinking When it comes to false teachers

44:25

And false prophets, because he believes That a false teacher and a false prophet Is automatically somebody

44:31

Who is not a believer He is very reticent to use those Titles, and as a result of it

44:36

Ken Copeland, Joel Osteen Bill Johnson Jennifer LeClaire And the whole host of Wingnut wackerdoodles out there

44:46

They all fit Into this one convenient bucket for him And that's airing brother

44:52

But the scriptures don't Allow us to do that And so as a result

44:59

Of it, I think that Michael Brown Is, by refusing To Really apply the biblical

45:06

Tests here and say, you know Ken Copeland is not an airing brother He is a heretic and he's hellbound

45:12

He is not willing to Say that And that's going to speak to a couple

45:18

Of things in Brown's life. If you've listened to Brown's Testimony, Brown At one point was a five

45:25

Point Calvinist, and his claim Is that he was repugnantly Self -righteous and smug

45:30

And like almost worshipped His Mental prowess as a result of it

45:37

And so he thought that that was a bad fit for him And he's Repented of it, but I think he's like Over -repented.

45:43

I'm not saying Calvinism Leads you to think you're intellectually Superior, but clearly His time in Calvinism, that was the

45:50

Fruit that it bore in his life. I see What you did there.

45:57

But The thing is We can talk about superior theology without Somehow thinking that I'm a superior thinker

46:05

Okay, because The idea here is That true biblical theology is superior

46:11

To everything else, not because I'm smart But because that, it's true. You know And so I always like to tell people that The bible makes me look a lot smarter than I am

46:20

So, you know But the bible has Superior theology. My goal is

46:26

To adopt that as my own, but Anyway, coming back to Brown's thing is that I think he's over -repented, and as A result of that, he is so Reticent to Legitimately say that these

46:38

Preachers and teachers who are Obviously heretics He can't bring himself to say that they're heretics

46:43

Because he somehow thinks That that would be smug or Arrogant or whatever, and so He always kind of over -charitably

46:52

Puts them into the category of Erring brother That, you can see

46:57

The problem here, and the problem Isn't what the bible says, I think the problem Is Michael Brown being able to Consistently apply it, so At least that's my

47:07

Two cents, and I've told him That personally, so Something else that he

47:13

Said in his interaction With you that really caught me off guard Because I would be with you on this,

47:19

I think Almost completely Is you were making the point That the

47:25

Judaism of today Is not biblical Judaism, in the sense of Old Testament Judaism, and it's a corruption

47:31

Much like the Pharisees had corrupted The law, had added to the law Had, as Jesus Said, and even

47:40

Brown used the example of the Straining of the gnat and the swallowing of the camel That they had twisted and Manipulated God's law, and So what we see in today's

47:49

Judaism, and I've preached this from the pulpit This is not The Old Testament Judaism, this is not the

47:55

Judaism of Christ, this is a perversion of that But it seems as if he was Defending that it is, at least

48:01

And maybe I'm misunderstanding him And maybe you could clarify that, but when he said Well that's what Paul said it was,

48:07

Paul said It was Judaism, and when I heard that I was like Well, but Can he really? Yeah, so I understand what he's trying to do here

48:17

So Lutheran scholars We refer to the religion Of the Old Testament, it's actually found

48:23

In the Tanakh, we refer to it as Yahwehism, in order to Distinguish it from the religion

48:29

Of the Pharisees, so It's absolutely Historically accurate, that Orthodox Judaism of today

48:37

Is the theological Forebearer Inheritor Of the religion created by the

48:45

Pharisees And it is not Biblical Judaism It's a In fact it's the

48:50

Judaism that Christ himself Condemned, I would point people to The opening portions of The Gospel of Mark chapter 7

48:57

Where Jesus, I love This text, I don't know what your time Frame is, but let me exegete it for you

49:04

Let's do it Alright, so here's what it says Here's what it says in Mark 7 The Pharisees gathered to Jesus with some of the scribes

49:11

Who had come from Jerusalem, and they saw that some Of Jesus' disciples ate with hands That were defiled, that is unwashed

49:18

The Pharisees and all the Jews do not Eat unless they wash their hands properly Holding to, and this actually

49:23

Should be capitalized, the tradition of the elders The tradition of the elders is a body of work So if you know the story

49:29

So by the time You get to the closing of the Old Testament So from Genesis To Malachi, the

49:36

Italian prophet So But there are

49:41

No Pharisees, there are no Pharisees Mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament They arise during the intertestamental

49:47

Period, and their claim Is that God When Moses went up Mount Sinai That God gave

49:54

Moses Two Torahs, one Was written and the other was oral

49:59

And that the reason why God Gave Moses the oral Torah was so that Gentiles Could never know the whole truth and therefore

50:06

Couldn't be saved, and who were the ones Who were keeping, who were the The ones guarding and teaching

50:12

The oral Torah happened to be the Pharisees And so that oral tradition Became known as the tradition

50:18

Of the elders, and it then gets later Written down into the Talmud, okay So that's its origin, so Christ here

50:25

Is now faced with a problem, so The Pharisees have come to check Jesus out They've come from headquarters in Jerusalem, and here's

50:34

Where they want to go to war This is the hill they want to Die on, Jesus is not

50:40

Allowing his disciples to obey The commandments From the oral

50:45

Torah Okay, so for instance If you read from Genesis to Malachi, you will not find any commandment

50:52

That says that when you're out Among the Goyim, that you have to wash your hands Once you come inside the house

50:57

That commandment doesn't exist So the question is, where does it come from? It comes from the oral

51:02

Torah, otherwise known as the Tradition of the elders, and it's actually It's a simple ceremony Jews still do it to this day

51:09

So if you're out among the Goyim You come into a house, there's a little wash basin

51:14

With a pitcher, and it has to Go in this specific order You begin by taking the water pitcher

51:19

Putting your left hand over the bowl Pouring water on the back Of your left hand, switching hands

51:25

Pouring water on the back of your right hand Switching hands Again, left hand up Water on that, right hand up Water on that, and then you can kind of Spritz your hands, and then you're required to Say a prayer that goes something like this

51:39

I thank you Lord God maker of heaven and earth That you have given me the command to wash my hands It's just that simple, right?

51:45

But Jesus didn't allow his disciples to obey That command, why? Because it's not Biblical, the source is in God And so You'll note, this is where the conflict is

51:55

Why are your disciples not walking According to the Tradition of the elders? That's what they say to Jesus So And it goes on to say

52:04

When the Pharisees come from the marketplace They don't eat unless they wash There are many other traditions that they observe

52:10

Such as the washing of pots, copper vessels And dining couches So the Pharisees and the scribes said to Jesus Why do your disciples not walk according to The Tradition of the elders?

52:19

Not according to the Bible, but according to the Tradition of the elders And they eat with defiled hands And so Jesus rips into them and says

52:25

Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, you hypocrites As it is written, this people honors me with their lips But their hearts are far from me

52:31

In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines The commandments of men And so here

52:38

Christ completely pans The entire Pharisaical Construct that there are two

52:45

Torahs And he says there's only one And all of those commands in your oral Torah They're man made

52:50

That's what he's saying here And then he says this You leave the commandment of God And you hold to the tradition of men

52:58

And you have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God In order to establish your tradition

53:03

For Moses said honor your father and mother Whoever reviles father and mother Must surely die That's what it says

53:09

But you say if a man tells his father or mother Whatever you would have gained from me as Corban That is a gift given to God Then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother

53:19

Thus you make void the word of God By your tradition that you have handed down And many such things you do

53:24

And I would note then that in Matthew 23 Jesus calls down woes On the

53:29

Pharisees So the whole religion of the Pharisees Christ doesn't allow his disciples

53:35

To follow the tradition of the elders All of it is man made And that then

53:40

When you have the destruction of the temple And the scattering of the Jews Out of Judea by the

53:46

Roman Empire In the early part of the 2nd century Then what happens is

53:51

It's the Pharisaical rabbis Who are the last people standing And they reinvent

53:58

Judaism without a temple And so You're going to note

54:03

The modern day Judaism we have It's not Biblical Yahwehism Because They're following these traditions

54:11

Of the elders still The Talmuds and the Mishnas And these commandments made by men

54:17

That Christ condemned And so they're engaging in rank idolatry And so The Judaism of today is not

54:25

Old Testament Yahwehism Not even close And so you have to Make that distinction

54:32

And Dr. Brown With that explanation I doubt he would deny that Because he's written quite extensively

54:40

Showing that the Oral Torah And the Talmuds are not authoritative He's a very

54:46

Vocal apologist against The use of the Talmud And so he knows what I'm saying is true

54:51

And I would just again go to Mark 7 And fact check maybe you don't believe me Sure And that's interesting because And again

54:59

I'm not sure What his motivation Was for what he said when he said Well that's what Paul thought about Paul thought they were

55:07

Jews or whatever It just seemed like an odd statement Especially coming from him And everything that you just said

55:13

Very consistent with things I'm actually preaching through the Gospel of Mark right now I'm in chapter 14 So I did chapter 7 several months ago

55:21

And said very much the same things you're saying now Which is good It was like being checked

55:26

It was like coming to school and having the professor tell me I did a good job So thank you Calvin with a

55:33

Lutheran professor That's a weird one Well you were in Nazarene And you went to a

55:39

Lutheran college So it worked out It worked out But no

55:46

It's an important question I think it leads to Part of the issue But I do want to get back now

55:52

To the Lutheran And Copeland conversation And maybe again to round everything out

56:00

And you sort of answered this When you said When we made the comparison between Joel Osteen and Hitler But there is a distinction there

56:07

And you said it yourself Hitler wasn't a pastor Hitler was a leader

56:12

Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths We know that Hitler is terrible

56:18

And to compare anyone to Hitler is bad But when you compare Luther and Osteen You are comparing a pastor to a non -pastor

56:24

But when we compare Copeland and Luther We are comparing in a sense

56:30

Apples to apples in one sense Because we're saying they're both men Who are

56:36

Standing in the pulpit They're both men who are Proclaiming the word And while we understand the issues

56:44

And you've already explained The issues with Luther And I don't think we have to Talk about the benefits of Luther I think many people

56:52

Especially if they've listened to this program They've heard me talk about the many ways In which Luther has positively impacted my ministry

56:59

And my life and certainly the Reformation As we teach on that every year In our church we celebrate October 31st as Reformation Day Hashtag no

57:07

Halloween You know But when you compare

57:13

Two ministers Who have Who both have Things that are at odds

57:20

Or at issue Obviously Luther has his issues As you said, the sins against the

57:25

Jews And other things, the peasants And even the Anabaptists And things that that pastor mentioned

57:32

That you had But when we compare that to Copeland And Brown says

57:37

Well Copeland's sins are one -tenth Or one -one -thousandth Or one -one -hundredth Or one -one -thousandth

57:45

How do you respond to that In your mind And I know my thoughts I almost get visceral

57:51

Because I see Copeland not only as a contemporary evil But I see him as a man Who I've never heard rightly articulate the gospel

57:58

And so there And I say There is no comparison in my mind

58:04

Even though And I know Luther's things There are vicious things And I know that they cannot be overlooked

58:11

Or discounted But to say that Copeland is one -one -hundredth Or one -one -thousandth of that I get a visceral reaction

58:18

But I want to hear your thoughts So there's two ways that we can Kind of look at this

58:24

Number one is By kind of addressing the comparison straight up The other is to look at the impact

58:31

That it had on the conversation at the roundtable And how rhetorically Brown was using that comparison

58:38

And I think that's where The action's at in the second one But let me kind of put it this way

58:43

And here's where the difference is Is that we are not going to Discount or try to undermine

58:50

Or dilute Luther's sins What he did was absolutely wrong And what he wrote

58:56

Was used by the Nazis To justify the murder of Six million Jews That's straight up bad

59:03

But here's the thing And I'm not apologizing for him But he was not responsible

59:09

For how people used his work Correct That again, Luther was

59:15

Writing against Judaism theologically Nazis were against Jews Based on race

59:20

And so they didn't make that distinction As a result of it, clearly the Nazis Were just looking for Any kind of words to incite people

59:29

To violence and hatred of Jews And so Luther was Conveniently used for that And I would say misused

59:36

Because Luther wasn't making a racial distinction He was making a religious one But all that being said

59:42

This is where Michael Brown's failure to make Distinctions comes into play handily

59:47

So I would say Luther clearly is an erring brother Because he's still holding

59:53

To the gospel, he still preached the gospel And historically everybody knows That he's the guy who recovered

59:59

The gospel from all the papering over That Rome had done to it So is he a sinner?

01:00:05

Yes Is his sin the type that puts him outside Of the faith? No Luther didn't teach a different spirit

01:00:12

A different Jesus or a different gospel All the way to his death he held to those Kenneth Copeland is not

01:00:19

An erring brother Kenneth Copeland is legitimately By all standards biblical

01:00:24

He doesn't pass the test of even being a brother He is a wolf And he is a heretic

01:00:30

Who teaches a different spirit A different Jesus and a different gospel Not just one of those but all three of those

01:00:36

And as a result of that He is not an erring brother He is a demonic heretic

01:00:43

Teaching Doctrines of demons And so to compare the two

01:00:48

Is to compare apples and oranges Because one clearly Is a brother who's erring

01:00:54

And the other isn't And because Michael Brown can't make that Distinction that's why that's not

01:01:00

Working out helpfully Because you'll know over and again His missing distinction Always referring to people as erring brothers

01:01:08

With the exception of Luther It doesn't work out And then if you look at How this then plays out rhetorically

01:01:16

How this argument was used In the round table I think that's the more interesting aspect of this

01:01:22

Because Michael Brown Used it as a way of deflecting Rather than addressing

01:01:28

And so In fact in logic We have these things called logical fallacies

01:01:34

What he engaged in Is known as the logical fallacy Of Tu Quoc Quo Which is basically well you also

01:01:41

And so the idea here Is if I were to say something like You are aware that Joel Osteen You know he preaches a different gospel

01:01:51

And he mishandles the bible And somebody says well you're not perfect How much time do you spend in the gym

01:01:56

It doesn't look like you're very healthy Rose bro And so How often

01:02:02

I go to the gym Has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Joel Osteen is teaching heresy

01:02:07

And so what happened is Is that Brown used that Argument to accuse

01:02:13

Falsely Ostman and Justin Peters Of having a double standard Of using different weights and measures

01:02:21

And things like this Because they weren't condemning Luther And they were condemning Copeland But it's a deflection tactic

01:02:27

And it's engaging in a logical fallacy And it has nothing to do

01:02:32

With the question at hand And so Michael Brown I have noted Is really skilled at using

01:02:40

Fallacies, logical fallacies To obfuscate And that's a word he doesn't like me using

01:02:45

But that's what he does To obfuscate and to blur clear distinctions In scripture

01:02:50

And as a result of it He ends up giving cover To false prophets and false teachers

01:02:57

Rather than properly calling them out And silencing them As the scriptures require us to do Well that's very important And everything you just said

01:03:08

Watching it, you're right When you watch the 4 hour video It's like that's the shield

01:03:14

Luther becomes the shield You can say Well Kenneth Copeland's a false teacher Well so is

01:03:19

Martin Luther Well so is Martin Luther Or not a false teacher But has these sins

01:03:26

And it's almost like we're not going to address These things And I want to say this from the other side

01:03:33

I have a special place For Sam Storms I'm an

01:03:38

Amillennialist I think you're an Amillennialist too I appreciate the work

01:03:43

Sam has done In Amillennialism I've taught on it recently And have benefited from some of his writings

01:03:49

And different things And I'm thankful for him And I was surprised at some of what he was saying too Almost in defense of these men

01:03:56

And the thing that I kept hearing was Well I haven't done the research I haven't listened to the I mean does it really take that long

01:04:02

To realize that these guys are a cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs I mean does it really take that long To realize that these guys are dangerous

01:04:09

I mean you don't have to spend Days reading Or looking It's right in front of your face

01:04:17

And I would note In the conversation Sam Storms and Michael Brown Were in the presence of two men

01:04:25

Who have done the research Justin Peters has done How many thousands or tens of thousands

01:04:31

Of hours on Men like Copeland And others And he has the receipts

01:04:38

He's produced them in context And they are all there And so This is kind of a good way to put it

01:04:46

Is that if we're to behave Like the body of Christ And that means is that God Creates different members of the body

01:04:54

To do particular things So that we can function as a body So you're going to know I don't critique

01:05:00

Certain people because That's just not in my wheelhouse And not within my gifting set

01:05:06

So I kind of focus on kind of the Seeker driven charismatic and charismatic NAR kind of stuff

01:05:12

Because other aspects of Aberrant theology I just don't have the training or the research

01:05:18

To be able to make an opinion on it So when somebody has done the research I can point to their receipts

01:05:25

And say they've done a good job So what Michael Brown and Sam Storms Should have done is recognize

01:05:30

That Justin Peters Is an expert on these things And that the research that he's done is impeccable

01:05:36

And as a result of his Conclusions should be Considered to be good ones

01:05:42

Unless they can find evidence to the contrary And you know He produced evidence

01:05:48

Okay, during the round table Justin Peters Showed the video

01:05:55

Of Todd White manipulating That kid's feet In order to make it look like his feet

01:06:00

Were growing and you know what Sam Storms said I don't care I saw it

01:06:06

And you don't know this about me I'm a former magician I worked as a professional magician for years

01:06:12

And that was just something I did before Becoming a pastor And I know

01:06:18

How magic works I was actually You know Houdini His real name was

01:06:24

Eric Weiss Houdini's desire was to find Someone who did real medium work

01:06:29

Because when his mother died He desired to see someone who could contact His mother from beyond the grave

01:06:35

And he went from medium to medium to medium And what he found was all of these supposed mediums Were using the same tricks he used

01:06:41

As a magician In the tents that he would go into And they were ringing bells with their feet

01:06:47

And they were calling Oh that's the I'm going to bring that up As a magician

01:06:53

I know what Todd White is doing I don't need the guy's video because I can do it too I know how to make that Manipulation happen

01:07:00

And again I mean this Seems like a departure I know what sleight of hand is and I know how it works

01:07:06

And that is exactly what he's doing It's a sleight of hand trick And for Sam to say

01:07:13

Well I don't know if that's really a trick And then to say I don't care That was a hard thing for me And again

01:07:19

I don't mean to get Too impassioned But again as a former magician Know exactly what's going on Can see it for myself

01:07:27

Don't need somebody to tell me what's going on I don't need the other guy's video I know and I just get worked up over that So when they're given the receipts

01:07:35

They still don't care And the thing is They absolutely should care about this

01:07:42

When you're given irrefutable evidence That this isn't a miracle That this is manipulation It's a parlor trick

01:07:48

Then that means that Todd White is intentionally deceiving In the name of Christ But here's the thing

01:07:54

Jesus makes it clear that Satan is the father of lies And that when he lies

01:08:00

He's speaking his native language And so Christ says When you abide in his word

01:08:06

You will know the truth And the truth will set you free Christianity is antithetical to lies

01:08:11

And nobody Who is in Christianity Can use lies for the purpose

01:08:17

Of proclaiming Christ's truth Because that's to mix Satanism With Christianity and the two don't go together

01:08:22

And so when somebody's intentionally deceiving Like that All in order to say We're going to give glory to Jesus When in fact who does the glory really go to?

01:08:32

It goes to Todd White Because oh man look at how he's able to operate in God's power And he's super special and he's anointed

01:08:38

And he can do all this kind of stuff We're not talking about Jesus anymore now We're talking about Todd White Which shows the exact reason why these people are so dangerous

01:08:46

Because they don't lead us to Christ They lead us away from him Absolutely And again

01:08:53

When you hear I don't care It's a stab to the heart

01:08:58

And when you see The Brown said this

01:09:04

He says well how do you know that guy's back Wasn't really healed And in my mind I was like Because it was a trick

01:09:11

That's how I know Because I have eyeballs They work Well Chris I want to react to what you just said

01:09:23

Because I want to point something out here Michael Brown says How do you know that that guy wasn't healed That's also a logical fallacy

01:09:30

Let me explain why Because we know You can't prove a negative You can only prove a positive

01:09:37

And by him saying to Justin Peters and Jim Osmond How do you know

01:09:43

He wasn't healed No we don't have to prove that he wasn't You have to prove that he was

01:09:49

That's right And so What he's doing is again a logical fallacy

01:09:55

Trying to make it our responsibility To prove a negative When in fact it's his responsibility

01:10:00

To prove a positive My immediate question would be to him Is what evidence do you have to support

01:10:06

The fact that he was really healed Through this parlor trick It's obvious it was a parlor trick Because you can see the hand manipulation going on there

01:10:13

So a lot of people lose track of this idea That he didn't actually give an argument

01:10:18

Because he was trying to make Jim and Justin Peters prove a negative It's his responsibility If he disagrees to actually prove

01:10:25

That the miracle took place Yeah Well I have one final question for you

01:10:31

Chris And this is just Something that I was interested To hear them say

01:10:36

At least Sam I heard Sam say throughout the course No one has the gift of healing

01:10:43

It's just healings And he made that distinction of the plural That it's only healings

01:10:48

And it comes upon certain individuals at certain times But it's no one that has the gift of healing Remember that when he said that?

01:10:54

Oh yeah In your ministry Have you experienced

01:11:02

Personally Seeing someone Be prayed for And God working miraculously in their life

01:11:09

I'm not talking about somebody being slapped And fall over But even as a person who would probably identify as a cessationist

01:11:15

You would still say That God is working miraculously And you've probably seen things that you could say

01:11:20

Can only be attributed to the power of God I have legitimately seen a miraculous answer to prayer I'll tell you the story

01:11:26

So this was early into my pastor There was a gal at our church Who came down with sepsis

01:11:33

She had Like a problem in her intestines And she didn't even know she had it

01:11:38

And by the time they figured it out She was like this close to death And so I got the call

01:11:45

That you need to go and see her in the hospital And so I went to visit her Pray with her, bring her the

01:11:51

Lord's Supper And At that point when I visited her

01:11:56

The doctors were saying She might have 24 to 36 hours to live That's how bad her condition was

01:12:03

And so What do we do? We prayed for her We prayed with her Preparing her to meet

01:12:10

Jesus Because the chances of her meeting Jesus were pretty high And I kid you not

01:12:15

God answered our prayers And healed her And 24 hours later she was released from the hospital

01:12:23

Amen And I think Go ahead

01:12:29

I've seen God heal So don't tell me God doesn't heal Now do I have the gift of healing? No And that's where I think

01:12:40

And that's where I think As people who might be identified as cessationists Or with the more cessationist bent

01:12:47

I do think there's a spectrum sometimes Of you know Some people are more cessationist than others

01:12:52

Some people are more charismatic than others Then you have the hyper view probably on both sides But I think as God is still miraculous

01:13:03

We're still supernaturalists We still believe in the supernatural I think that's accused of the cessationist side

01:13:10

Is that we've given up the supernatural And I know I haven't I know that God is still working And He's working in the supernatural

01:13:17

Amen, that's absolutely true God's still absolutely doing miraculous and supernatural things

01:13:22

For sure Absolutely Well brother I want to thank you for coming on the show today And sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us

01:13:29

And just being a great guest I appreciate it I wanted to thank you

01:13:34

And also if you could take just a moment And remind everyone how they can follow you Get in touch with you Or be a part of what you're doing at Pirate Christian Radio So the easiest way is to actually

01:13:44

Find my YouTube channel and subscribe And then our contact information is there So if you go on to YouTube just type in Chris Roseborough Fighting for the

01:13:51

Faith And you should find my channel And subscribe And put the notification on And then if you need to email me

01:13:58

All of our contact information is always in the description for every video So Great Well brother

01:14:05

I want to thank you again For being a part of the show And again hopefully you'll come see me again

01:14:10

Sometime in the future I would welcome the invite back That would be fun Great thank you

01:14:16

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