Preterism DEBATE | Sam Frost vs Ward Fenley@ncmilive

Well, hello, everybody out there in YouTube and Facebook land. My name is

Jeremiah Nortier, and I'm our host this evening, early afternoon, depending on where you're at, on the

Apologetic Dog, where it's our heart's desire to guard the gospel of grace. And we do that by warring against pagan philosophy.

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So without any further ado, we have a special episode with some interlocutors.

What's up, fellas? Howdy. Hey, we got

Ward Finley and Sam Frost. How are y 'all doing? I'm good.

Busy day. Busy day. Excellent. Busy day. Well, thank y 'all for joining me today because we're about to debate.

We got, you know, I've been watching debates for years now. I've watched a lot of Dr.

James White's content. And so I've learned so much for seeing how two different worldviews clash together.

And you learn a lot. I feel like you can read a ton of books or, and Dr. Frost, I see all the books in the background.

I know books are important, but you learn so much so fast when you see two people going at it.

So thank y 'all. Thank y 'all for coming on. I'd like for y 'all to be able to introduce yourself a little bit.

And so, Mr. Ward, will you tell us a little bit about who you are and where people can find your content? Yeah, you bet.

Can you hear me okay? Yes, sir. All right. Good. Well, yeah.

My name's Ward Finley, and I am currently residing in Northern California, a little foothills town called

Meadow Vista. But I was born and raised in Sacramento, 31 years, but spent a good deal of time in Colorado up in the mountains.

And I consider my real home, though, in Page, Arizona, where Lake Powell is.

You know, I became a Christian when I was about 13, born into an

Armenian dispensational environment, got exposed to grace when

I was so, I don't know, my first attempt at seminary back in 89, and then got exposed to preterism, but rejected it in 93, summer of 93,

I believe. And then through the study of the kings and their contemporary prophets, just went through a huge paradigm shift.

Got to know Sam, actually, in, I think it was the early 2000s, maybe late 90s on,

I think it was Pal Talk. I don't remember his screen name, but got to know him there. And he invited me out for a conference in either

St. Petersburg or Tampa. He'll explain that. I can't remember where, but then we invited him out.

That was, I think, 04. And then we invited him out in 2006 to Page, Arizona, when we had our first conference.

My YouTube channel is NCMI Live, just all one word,

N -C -M -I -L -I -V -E. And then I have two websites. I own eschatology .com

and also newcreationministries .tv. And you'll notice that they are outdated, but the articles,

I think, are pretty decent. And you're more than welcome to subscribe to our YouTube channel.

Put out a lot of videos, probably have over 900. Love the kingdom of God, love God's grace, love

His mercy. Man, every day, they're new. His compassions never fail. And Jeremiah, I'm honored that you actually invited me to do this with Sam.

It's been a long time since I've seen Sam. Yeah. So y 'all used to do some work together, huh?

So this has been one in the making for the history books with y 'all coming together, right?

Because Sam, you've changed your views since the last time maybe you interacted with Ward. Tell us a little bit about who you are and where people can find your work.

Vigil .blog, V -I -G -I -L .blog, most of my articles and stuff.

That has all the books that I've written or been a part of.

And then Facebook, as Ward knows, I've been hanging out on Facebook almost since its inception.

I think Ward was on PalTalk. And there was PalTalk. And then, you know, this is 2000.

So AOL, we've been doing this for quite some time. When Facebook came out, I've been on there ever since.

And that's pretty much a homepage place for me. I enjoy what Facebook has allowed me to do in spite of the naysayers.

But that's where you'll find most of the stuff or information about me there.

But yeah, Ward and I go back. It was in St. Petersburg. We had a conference with Don Preston.

And he was debating, I believe he was debating Thomas Ice and Mark Hitchcock at the time, or it may have been

James Jordan, one or the other. So that's when I was operating as a full preterist in that time.

And then Ward invited me out to Arizona. And I spoke out there as well on progressive sanctification.

That was the theme of my talk there. So yeah, we go back.

And of course, being actively involved in ministry now, Presbyterian.

Very, very actively involved in that. Yeah, Presby, as well as a sheriff.

Henry County Sheriff's Chaplain here. I worked in the jail as well.

And then researching. Always a reader. It's a habit.

Now, you know, I've got a book in my hand or something. I'm always reading something. So residing now here in Newcastle, Indiana.

And a lot of exciting things are happening. Very, very content these days.

Now, Sam, you mentioned an important name. I want to mention this name, Don Preston.

So there's a few reasons why I reached out to Mr. Ward for trying to set up this debate.

Because it's been a handful of weeks ago, but this debate proposition that y 'all will be affirming and denying,

Don Preston debated Chris Date a few weeks ago on, does scripture teach the resurrection of the dead was at 70

AD? Now, you know, I watched some of these debates from afar, and I noticed a lot of disappointment in that debate.

But that happens with every debate, I suppose. And I thought, well, I listened to Ward interview

Doug Wilson. I thought, hey, this guy sounds like he knows a thing or two. And maybe he'd be willing to interact with you on this topic.

And y 'all told me, oh, yeah, I know. I know him. And I was like, oh, man, we just we got to have a debate. So I thank y 'all so much for coming on.

I want to go through, once again, I'll read the debate proposition and kind of go through the format and just some housekeeping rules.

The proposition is written in a way that can be affirmed or denied. The proposition is scripture teaches the resurrection of the dead was at 70

AD. And so Ward Finley is going to take the affirmative, and Sam Frost is going to deny and negate and say that ain't right.

And so y 'all will have opening statements that will be 15 minutes long. Then you both will have 10 minute rebuttals, and we're going to have a brief time of intermission for about maybe five minutes.

And definitely take that time to get something to drink, stretch your legs, whatever you need to do. And when y 'all come back, we're going to have a 25 minute cross examination where Ward is going to lead in the cross examination.

And I want to say Ward is more within his he's within his rights. If he wants to interrupt you,

Sam, if he asks you a question and you're not answering it to his satisfaction, he can jump in there and say, hey, let's back up and let's try this again.

And I just want to encourage our audience, that's not rude. That is it's up to whoever's controlling the time to ask certain questions and utilize that time as they see fit.

And so after the first 25 minutes expires, then we'll kick it over to you, Sam. And then you get to tell

Ward, hey, you're wrong. And you get 25 minutes to do that. And so then we'll both have closing statements of five minutes and we may take another brief break after that.

And so if you're tuning in, this is where you can actually participate all throughout is we're going to have a 20 to 30 minute audience

Q &A at the end. And so if you have questions, please preface it with a Q and then your question so I can easily find those.

And my YouTube channel is monetized. And so I do accept super chats.

And so those will have priority. If you're like, hey, I've always wanted to ask Sam Frost this question that he can't answer.

Now's your time. But like I said, I honor the super chats for those that appreciate the apologetics ministry and want to be able to support in that way.

And so with that being said, do you all have any questions about anything? Y 'all are good to go.

Well, when you have a minute left in your opening statements, your rebuttal time, whatever it is,

I will give you a warning sound that will be this. Could y 'all hear that okay?

And if somebody is being a little long winded and needs a little help stopping, you will hear this sound.

I'm not afraid to use the horn. But this is all in good fun. If you like me and you were talking about Ward, you have a presentation.

If you need another minute or so to wrap up a thought, we are super charitable with that. But with that being said, we're going to get right into this.

And so Ward, I'm going to pull up your opening scene. And go ahead and let's see here.

Let's make sure. Have you shared your presentation with me?

Go ahead and share that. Here we go. Boom. Can you see it?

Perfect. Perfect. All right. Mr. Ward, whenever you start speaking,

I will start your time. All right.

I'm going to move through this relatively quickly. This is called Resurrection, the Hope of Israel First, and then the

Nations that the Bible teaches that there was only one messianic life, glory, resurrection, salvation, one eternal kingdom.

And let's see what we got here. There we go. The hope of Israel is inseparably associated from the hope of the resurrection.

In Paul's theology, Acts 23, when Paul perceived that the one part was Sadducees, the other

Pharisees, he cried out in the council, men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a

Pharisee of the hope and resurrection of the dead. I am called into question.

24, 15, we have hope toward God that they themselves also allow that there is about to be, that's the

Greek word there, a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

So resurrection, again, is inseparable from the judgment of the just and the unjust.

Young's literal, there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.

This corresponds perfectly with 2nd Timothy 4 .1. I solemnly implore you, Paul tells him in the presence of God and of Jesus Christ, who is about to judge the living and the dead by his appearing in his kingship.

1st Peter, they will have to give an accounting to him who stands ready to judge.

Just like James, the judge is at the door, the living and the dead, for this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that though they had been judged in the flesh, as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Just like the word of God teaches about Jesus. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

Or 1st Corinthians 15, the first man, Adam, was made a living soul. The second, the

Lord from heaven was made a life -giving spirit. And Peter says, the end of all things is near.

So he associated it with the judgment of the living and the dead. The end is at hand, the end of all things.

Therefore, be serious, discipline yourselves. In other words, it's a statement of urgency, so we encourage them to pray.

Acts 26, continuing this association of the hope of Israel and the resurrection of the dead.

The promise made of God unto our fathers. This is pertaining to Israel, unto which promise our 12 tribes, right?

That's the same 12 tribes of Revelation 1. Instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.

For which, hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you that God should raise the dead?

There it is, the hope of Israel, resurrection. Acts 28, verse 20. For this cause, therefore,

I have called for you to see you and to speak with you, because that for the hope of Israel, I am bound with this chain.

Now, Romans 8, 18, new revised standard. They were looking forward to something. I consider that the sufferings of this present time, that was the suffering under the

Jewish people, the Pharisees, and, of course, the Romans, are not worth comparing to the glory about to be revealed.

So that's the new revised standard version, which is accepted in any accredited institution or seminary.

Young's literal translation. I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us.

Futurists always associate glorification with resurrection. The prophets, were they mistaken when they associated resurrection life with salvation, glory, and God dwelling with his people?

We have to ask the question, is God with us? Is God present with us? Emmanuel with us is the

Lord. Are we saved? Are we glorified? Jesus said in John 17, the glory which you have given me,

I have given them so that they may be one by the time we get to Galatians chapter three, it says you are all one in Christ Jesus that can't take place without glory.

Ephesians chapter three, showing how this involves the Gentiles, how the mystery was made known to me,

Paul, by revelation, as I wrote above in a few words, a reading of which will enable you to perceive my understanding of the mystery of Christ.

Now, listen, in former generations, this mystery was not made known to humankind hidden in the

Old Testament, first Corinthians one and two, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit.

Now, here it is. That is that the Gentiles have become fellow heirs. They're inheriting something.

What is it? Members of the same body. That's the body of Christ, the risen body of Jesus Christ and sharers in the promise.

That's the same promise that Israel was hoping for in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Now, look down there a little font.

Second Corinthians one, 19 through 20 for the son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you,

Savannas and Timothy and I was not yes and no. In other words, was not already, but not yet.

It was not yes and no, but in him, it is always yes for in him, in Christ, new creation.

If anyone's in Christ, every one of God's promises is a yes. That includes resurrection life of Isaiah, 26 of Ezekiel, 37, as we will get to this.

For this reason, it is through him that we say amen to the glory of God. In Ezekiel, we find a passage that irrefutably supports the inseparability of resurrection and being planted in their land.

You cannot disassociate those two chapter 37, one through 14. The hand of the Lord came upon me.

He brought me out by the spirit of the Lord, set me down in the middle of a valley. It was full of bones.

He led me all around them. There were very many lying in the valley. There were very dry. He said to me, mortal, can these bones live?

I answered, oh God, you know. Then he said, prophesy to these bones, say to them, oh, dry bones.

Hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones. I will cause breath to enter you.

You shall live. There it is. We're talking about life here. This is resurrection. I will lay sinews on you.

We'll cause flesh to come upon you and cover you with skin, put breath in you. You shall live. You shall know that I am the

Lord. So I prophesied as I had been commanded. And as I prophesied, suddenly there was a noise, a rattling, a bones came together, bone to its bone.

I looked and there were sinews on them. Flesh had come upon them. Skin had covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath. Says the

Lord God come from the four winds. Oh, breath, breathe on these slain that they may live.

I prophesied as he commanded me and the breath came into them and they lived, stood on their feet, a vast multitude.

He said to me, mortal, these bones are the whole house of Israel, the hope of Israel resurrection.

We are. They say our bones are dried up. Our hope. There it is. Hope of Israel is lost. We are cut off completely.

Therefore, prophesy, say to them, here it is. This is the powerful part. Thus says the

Lord, I'm going to open your graves. Jesus talked about the same thing. The time is coming when those that are in their graves will hear the voice of the son of God.

They shall live all that are in their graves. And it says here, I will bring you, I will bring you up from your graves.

Oh, my people, I will bring you back to the land of Israel. It's associated with being planted in their inheritance.

Keep that in mind. You shall know that I am the Lord when I open your graves. Marvel not at this.

Jesus said, all that are in their graves shall hear his voice and they shall come forth. Some to everlasting life, others to everlasting destruction, which goes right along with Daniel 12, which does not disassociate resurrection life.

Some of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Some do everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

And he said it was at the time of Jacob's trouble. The tribulation, AD 70,

AD 66 through 73 or thereabouts. He says, I'll open up your graves, bring you up from your graves.

Oh, my people, I will put my spirit within you and you shall live life.

Resurrection life is inseparable from the spirit dwelling in them. I will place you on your own soil.

One resurrection, land promise, the inheritance. Then you shall know that I, the

Lord, have spoken and will act, says the Lord. There it is over to the right.

Well, one chapter earlier, same context. I will sprinkle clean water on you. Now, reformers and I'm sovereign grace here.

Reformers say that this is regeneration and they're correct. It's new covenant. This is speaking about a new covenant.

It says you should be clean from all your uncleanness. That's the cross of Jesus. You don't get clean any other way. And from all your idols,

I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you.

I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

So that's what Paul meant in Philippians 3. He shall change our vile, our plural vile body, singular

Old Testament body and fashion it like unto his glorious or glorified body.

I will put my spirit within you. Same spirit, same time frame, Pentecost.

You check it out with John chapter 7. The spirit was not yet given for he had not yet been glorified, right?

And make you follow my statutes. Be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave your ancestors.

And you shall be my people. I will be your God. What did Paul say in 2 Corinthians 6, 16? You are the temple of the living

God as it is written. I will be their God. I will dwell among them. They shall be my people.

Same with Revelation 21. Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men. He will be their

God and they shall be his people. It's all associated over there to the right. Dwelling in the land.

Bible calls us the heavenly Jerusalem. Mount Zion, Hebrews 12, 22. Romans 8.

Back to that passage. This has to do with the spirit being placed within them. You did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you've received a spirit of adoption when we cry,

Daddy, Father, implying we're children. It is that very spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

Keep that phrase in mind. And if children then heirs, it's inseparable from resurrection life and the inheritance being children of God.

Joint heirs with Christ. If in fact we suffer with him, that we may be what? Glorified. Resurrection, glorification, heirs.

It's all synonymous. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us for the creation.

That's that Old Testament creation. This is not talking about physical rocks, inanimate objects. This is talking about believers under the

Old Testament who were still dead. Waits with eager longing for the revealing of the what?

Children of God. Not rocks, not physical rocks, not physical trees, not flowers. Children of God.

The creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage.

They were still enslaved to decay and obtain what? The freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Glorification, children of God, resurrection. It's all synonymous. Luke 20.

I get challenged on this all the time. Jesus said to them, those who belong to this age, that is the

Old Covenant age, marry and are given in marriage. You say, well, aren't we still married and given in marriage?

Paul said, in Christ, there's neither male nor female. Well, we acknowledge that. And yet we agree we're still in physical bodies.

It's a totally different realm. It is the realm of the kingdom of God, the unseen realm.

We are no longer male nor female. Galatians 3, 28, 29. It's very, very clear. But those who are considered worthy of a place in that age, the

New Covenant age, the Bible says they were in the end of the age. Jesus appeared once in the end of the age to put away sin, cancel sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Paul, 1 Corinthians 10, said that the end of the age had come upon them. Now watch.

In the resurrection from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. Indeed, they cannot die anymore. What did

Jesus say to physically living people? He who lives and believes in me shall never die. One resurrection.

Indeed, they cannot die because they're like the angels and are, are you ready? The children of God.

Do you agree that you're a child of God? If so, then you are a child of the resurrection. You are in the resurrection.

You are living in the resurrection. And the fact that the dead are raised, Moses himself showed in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the

Lord as the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob. It surrounds Israel. Now he is

God, not of the dead, but of the living for all, for to him, all of them are alive. Better in the book of Hebrews, the contrast of the covenants.

The whole book is about that. It's nothing else. It's just about the contrast of the covenants. Two ages in the very beginning, the

Lord made the ages. 7, 19, the law couldn't make anything complete or perfect, but a better hope did.

8, 6, he is the mediator of a better covenant, a new covenant based upon better promises.

9, 23, it was necessary that the sketches of the heavenly things. That's what we are.

We're the heavenly things. Those things in the earthly tabernacle made with hands, they represented us. They would sprinkle those earthly things with blood.

Well, now those heavenly things are us and it's sprinkled and cleansed with better sacrifices than these.

10, 34, you had compassion for those who were in prison. And look what it says. They were looking for something better and more lasting.

Contrast between the covenants. As it is, they desire a better country, not the physical piece of real estate that people are fighting over all the time.

It is a heavenly one. That's what they were looking for. And then women received. Covenant contrast, new versus old.

That's all it is. It's not about cosmological contrast. And it's certainly not about physical contrast.

It says women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release in order to obtain a better resurrection.

So better country, better covenant, better sacrifices, better resurrection. Chapter 11, verse 40, they were waiting for it since God had provided something better so that they would not apart from us be made perfect.

They were expecting it. They were going to be gathered together that in the dispensation of the fullness of times,

God might gather together all in one. Or as Matthew 24 said, he gathers together his elect from the four winds.

Hebrews 9, for this cause, he's the mediator of the new testament that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive, here it is, the promise of eternal inheritance.

That was the deposit of the spirit. We see that in second Corinthians and also Ephesians 1 until their inheritance.

He is the guarantee. The deposit of the spirit was the guarantee of their inheritance. And I'm going to show beyond a doubt that inheritance, that land is

Jesus. Hebrews 10, for you have need of patience. He's talking to them, not us. This was 2000 years ago.

After you've done the will of God, you might receive the promise. That's the eternal inheritance, better resurrection for yet a very, very little while.

That's the literal Greek there. And he who shall come will come and will not delay. And yet, futurists have

Jesus delaying 2000 years, making Jesus a liar, God forbid. Psalm 16, the

Lord, here it is, the great resurrection chapter. Acts 2, Acts 13, compare it with this.

The Lord. We gotta wind it down. All right, the Lord is the portion of my inheritance. How much time do

I have? I gave you your overtime. You might not have heard the notification, but you can wrap up your last thought there if you want to.

I'll wrap it up. The Lord is our portion. You will show me down there in verse 11, the path of life.

Jesus says, I am the way in your presence is fullness of joy at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

And then finally, 1 Corinthians 15, I'll end it here. The sting of death is sin. It's a whole covenantal contrast, 1

Corinthians 15. The sting of death is sin. The power of sin is the law. If the resurrection has not happened, we're still under the power of sin and the law.

Thanks be to God who gives us the victory. And he's quoting from Isaiah 25, which associates salvation with resurrection.

Right in the nick of time. Hi, thank you so much, Ward, for that opening statement.

Sam, if you need another minute or so like him, definitely utilize the time as you see fit.

And like I said, I'll give you a warning kind of with a minute left. But when you begin speaking, the floor is yours and your time will start.

All right. Well, I'll wait for the rebuttal to go through the material that Ward presented.

So I'll just go through. My plan was to go through 1 Corinthians 15, which is

Paul's longest sustained argument on what is called resurrection of the dead.

And there it's plain in 15. He says, now, brothers, I want to remind you of the good news

I preached to you, which you did receive and which you have taken your stand.

And by this gospel, you're being saved. And if you hold firmly to the word, which

I preached to you, otherwise you've believed in vain. Which the conditional sentence there is that Paul does not believe that they have believed in vain.

He believes that he is writing to believers who have received his message and have demonstrated the fruit of the spirit, the first fruits of the spirit among them, obviously dealing with the gifts of the spirit and everything else, that their affirmation in Jesus Christ is affirmed by the

Holy Spirit. So he's affirming that there. And then he just tells him, he received what I passed on to you, the first of first importance.

Now I want you to get this. This is a first importance about 70 AD. It's not that the temple is going to fall.

It's this is the first importance. This is the most important thing of Paul. And he doesn't mention anything about 70

AD at all in this passage, not at all. Now, and I don't want to get on the rebuttal here, but if you listen to full preterist, it's all that they talk about is 70

AD. Because it's the end all be all of everything in their thinking.

And I used to be ardently one of them. And it was all that I thought of was how to relate everything in or through the lens of 70

AD. Everything is seen through the lens of 70 AD. So let's see if Paul talks about 70

AD here. And he's just writing to ordinary people, audience relevance in the first century, just ordinary, everyday average,

Joe's Christians, Jews and Gentiles mixed, but the majority of them probably being Gentile. But he says here, the first importance, according to the scriptures, that would be the

Tanakh most likely. That he was, that he died.

It's not spiritual death here. He died and everybody knows what, you don't have to be a rocket science.

You don't have to have a THM or THD or PhD or any other D or PH or whatever.

To understand what he died meant. He died. That's what death means. That's the death that we all try to avoid.

That's why we have insurance. Why do we go to the doctor and have surgeries and colonoscopies?

Wear your seatbelt, put your helmet on. Don't drive too fast. Don't break the speed limit. Don't stand in the water too long.

Don't be in the sun. Don't go to the tanning salon. Why? You get radiation poisoning.

Oh, you might die. You might get cancer. You don't want to get cancer. Why? Oh, you might die.

We all know what death is and we don't like it. I'm not a big fan of it myself.

But Jesus died and he was buried. Now we all know what that is because I've presided at least over 25 funerals, conducted them myself, some of them with friends and many of them with very close personal family.

And I don't like doing those either. Funerals are sad. And even though we have the hope, nonetheless, we have to be as ministers very sensitive to the loss.

It is also a loss. Death, it brings about grieving.

Some people, it brings about very severe grieving. They have to go undergo counseling and all the rest of it to get through the death of a child or the death of their children or murder or rape and murder and all of that kind of stuff.

These are things that affect every bit of us and as pastors that we have to deal with on a quite a common basis.

And if you read the prayer books, particularly the Book of Common Prayer, this passage right here is quoted in our funerals.

It's quoted, whether you're Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, it doesn't make a difference.

I've read all, I've got a collection of all the funeral books. They all say basically the same thing, but they quote here 1

Corinthians 15. Because everybody knows what he's talking about. So Jesus died,

Jesus was buried. And then it says he was raised on the third day, according to the scriptures.

Now here, he's raised, it's using a perfect tense. Greek is that he's raised and still is raised.

So for example, here the NIV translates it, and that's a good translation. You can also see the King James Version or the

Revised Standard Version or the ESV is raised. And so the present is there, is raised.

In other words, the Jesus that walked out of the tomb is the same Jesus that now is at the time of Paul's writing, raised.

He is the risen one. He's the one that is now, he's a human being that died and was buried and is now raised.

He's that guy. We know him as Jesus of Nazareth, this same

Jesus, the one that the disciples hung out with for three and a half years and minister.

That guy, the same Jesus, he's in heaven. I've never met him. I've never seen him.

But Peter actually says that you love him, even though you have never seen him. I'm one of those guys that's never, never seen.

Now he says here, so that's pretty. And then it says here, he appeared to Peter.

And then lastly, and this would have been 18 months after the resurrection of Jesus, so about 18 months.

It says, lastly, he appeared to me using the same expression as the appearance to Peter and James and John and the rest of them.

You know, for 40 days, Jesus appeared. And then lastly, he appeared to Paul in the same manner.

This wasn't a spirit, wasn't phantasm, wasn't gross, wasn't super Jesus, wasn't a different Jesus. It was the same

Jesus that died, was buried, raised, ascended to the right hand of the father.

That Jesus, 18 months after he was dead and buried, appeared and talked to and had a conversation with Paul.

Now, Paul, previous to this, was running around the countryside there thinking that these

Jews that are following this Jesus of Nazareth, this Nazarene sect, these heretical

Nazarene Jews that are following, they're actually saying that this Jesus fellow was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God in heaven.

And that he's still alive. When very obviously, the Romans put him to death and he's dead.

They hid the body, they did something to him, but these Jews have to be persecuted.

So Paul, upon hearing about these guys, he's going around the countryside persecuting and as he says in Galatians, destroying the church because they're preaching, as Acts chapter four says, the resurrection of Jesus.

This is what they're, and actually they're in Acts 4 too, they're forbidden by the council not to preach the resurrection in Jesus.

Do not preach that Jesus who we just sentenced to death and was crucified and died, buried on the cross.

Do not go around preaching that this man, this human being is still alive.

You get it? Because that's a shocking message. I don't know about you.

I work in hospitals and all that kind of stuff, the funerals, and I've not yet to this day seen a dead guy for three or four days, get up, walk around, and then ascend into heaven.

I don't know about you, but if somebody was claiming that that happened over here at Memorial Hospital, I'd be saying, you know, are you off your meds?

So, you know, something's wrong with you here. But that's the import of the message. And Paul, naturally so, because the message is such a, you know, it's like, well, he's dead.

He was crucified. Everybody saw him hanging on a cross. The guy's dead. They beat him to a pulp.

He's dead. He didn't, after three days, that's what Paul says. This is the first and foremost thing that I preached to you, that this

Jesus has been raised from the dead, raised from the dead. And then he says, now if it's preached that Christ is now currently, as we speak, raised from the dead, this

Jesus of Nazareth, born of a woman. If that's, if that's, if I preached that to you, first and foremost, which you received and which you believed and not in vain, but you believed and you also stand in this.

Then how can some, and I have the idea of among you, because when Paul talks to the believers, he refers to them specifically as you.

But when he refers to strangers, he uses a common structure syntax there in Greek words, some among you or some in you.

These are outsiders. It's all, it's also the same where he says, come to your senses. Some among you are ignorant of God.

What that means is they're not believers. They have no knowledge of God. Some among you have no knowledge of God.

That's the same ones. And then he says, bad company corrupts good character. In other words, he's not talking about the some among you are

Christians. These are not Christians. These are people who have come in among them, probably like their feasts or whatever else that they were doing, you know, love, peace and joy and everything.

Great group of people to be around. And then they started hearing about the message of Jesus who died, was buried and was raised again from the dead.

And now he's at the right hand of God and in their minds thinking, well, that's, you know, we don't, that's just,

I mean, you know, there's no resurrection. There is no resurrection of the dead. That's we hear this today.

We hear this. We've heard this in the second century. We hear it.

I hear this today of the impossibility of resurrection from the dead. It's impossible.

And again, I'd like to see someone offer me some proof of somebody after three solid days,

I mean, dead, buried in an arid tomb out in the desert, you know, outside of Jerusalem.

Get up and walk around again because it doesn't happen. I'll go to any morgue.

I'll give you and I got the money. I'll give you a thousand dollars right now. Proclaim this right now.

But so we know what Paul means by resurrection because anybody reading this, whether in the first century or in the 21st century, understands what

Paul was saying here. It requires faith. To believe that Jesus is raised again from the dead, because in the natural realm of things seen, that just does not happen.

So already it requires faith in order to believe what Jesus has accomplished. And if Jesus has not been raised from the dead, if there is no resurrection of the dead, if Jesus has not been raised from the dead, then not even

Christ has been raised. Now notice what Paul does here. He does not say if Jesus hasn't been read, then the dead are not raised.

What he's saying is if you deny the resurrection of the dead, then

Jesus has not been raised. That's what you affirm when you deny the future resurrection of the dead.

When you deny that, then you are also denying whether you affirm it or not.

You're also denying the resurrection of Jesus because the reason why Jesus was raised again from the dead was so that he would raise the dead and deliver them from death as he had been delivered from death to deliver them from sin.

To deliver them from what Paul or Peter says in Acts chapter four, the clutches, the pangs of death held

Jesus, but they could not hold him. God raised him from the dead.

That's the power of death. It holds. Well, what did it look like when it held

Jesus? Well, he was buried. That's what it looks like. Well, what's resurrection look like?

What does release from death look like? Well, what does it look like for Jesus? There's the answer to your question.

See, the answer to your question about what resurrection is, his name is Jesus. Jesus is the answer to what resurrection is.

Jesus, my personal savior, the savior of the whole world has demonstrated

Paul says in first Timothy chapter or second Timothy chapter one, that Jesus has brought to light immortality.

What he means by that is, is that Jesus has shed light on.

He's made obvious. He has demonstrated what it is, what immortality is.

What does it look like? It looks like a guy that walks out of a tomb and cannot die. Romans six cannot die ever again.

You can blow him up. You can shoot him with guns. You could throw an anchor on him. You could drop a building on him.

And Jesus is indestructible. In fact, that's the word that's used in Hebrew. He has an indestructible life.

He's indestructible. Death cannot, he cannot die again. He holds the keys of death in his hands.

He has the authority of death. He hasn't yet thrown it into the lake of fire. They're in his hands though, which means he has the keys.

He's overcome death. He has the keys. He's ready to raise the dead if he so wanted.

And let me go one more, one more minute here. But he's ready to raise the dead. Peter affirms that.

Why? Because he has all power. He was given all power and all authority and all rule and all might and all strength.

When he ascended to the right hand of the father fulfilling Psalm 110, blessed be his holy name forever.

May he live forever. This is the vision that John sees in Revelation chapter five, when the lamb ascends and he comes, it says, and he, and he came to the throne of God and he received from the right hand.

And when he took from the right hand all of heaven breaks forth and says, glory, power, honor, and might.

And they fell down and worshiped the lamb because that's when he received it. This is ascension. In other words, the lamb who appeared as if he were slain, see that?

He's not slain because he opens up in the beginning of Revelation. The first thing that he tells John, when John turns around and sees who he's looking at, he says,

I am the living one. I was bad and now I'm alive. I live. That's not talking about God.

God did not die. God was not buried in a tomb for three days. And then God raised again from the dead.

That's talking about Jesus of Nazareth, the human being who has came to come to save us human beings through his death and through his resurrection.

And I'll stop there. Ooh, hey, the people in the audience, they love that horn.

I've been seeing people say, hey, we wanna hear that sound effect. So I try to work it in there. Hey, great opening statement.

Both of y 'all just remind the watching audience, if you have any questions, please send that in the live chat and preface it with the letter

Q. So I can kind of do a search. And at the end, I want us to have a really good interactive audience

Q &A. And please address it to either Sam or Ward for your questions.

And hopefully we'll get into that. And so, like I said, we utilize the Super Chats. They will get priority at the end to help the ministry.

And so thank y 'all so much. All right, Ward. So now it's gonna be your turn to say, hey, Sam, you're wrong.

And you didn't address my arguments and get into all the stuff and tell them how you begged the question. So this is the rebuttal time.

And so we will have a little bit less time than we did in the opening statement.

You will have 10 minutes, Ward. When you begin to speak, I will start your time. All right, you bet.

So I saw one of the questions. Yes, I absolutely believe Jesus rose from the dead physically.

We'll get to that in just a moment. I have 10 minutes. Sam made the statement, all we talk about is

AD 70. Sam is right. There are a lot of preterists. That's all they talk about. If you go to my

YouTube page, you will see that that is not all I talk about. In fact, I'm one of those weird preterists that actually focuses on the nature of the kingdom of God today and what it means to display the character of that kingdom and explaining what all those

Old Testament prophets were anticipating as they use these beautiful metaphors to describe the beauty of God's kingdom.

The kingdom, as Jesus said, dwells within us. Thy kingdom come. Well, his kingdom has come.

It dwells within us. So some preterists, you're right, Sam. Some preterists, and I, quite frankly,

I can't stand it. They're just very mechanical. You see that all over.

You see it coming from churches, from pulpits, and I just reject it 100%.

And that's what leads to things like IO, Israelite only. Sam implies that there's no such thing as spiritual death.

Well, the word of God teaches the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. I would ask

Sam the question, which, by the way, Sam did not actually say the resurrection didn't happen in AD 70.

He didn't say that. He didn't prove that it is still future. So let's say everything

Sam said, let's pretend it was true, which it was not, but let's pretend it was true. He didn't defend that it was 2000 years far removed from Jesus's cross.

The Bible says I will do a short work in righteousness, not a long 2000 year work. So the

Bible teaches that there is such a thing as spiritual death. And the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.

What is that death? Guilt before God, shame. That's what it is, a conscience that is guilty before God.

And Jesus, the Bible says, how much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living

God? Okay, Sam says he has never seen Christ. John chapter six, you better be careful.

Sam says this, and this is the father's will, which has sent me that of all he has given me,

I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me. Now, listen, that everyone who sees the son and believes on him may have everlasting life.

In other words, you have to see the son to believe on him.

Physical? No, it's not talking about that. It's talking about the eternal kingdom seeing of which

Paul wrote, while we look not at the things which are seen, old covenant things, but we look on the things which are unseen for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal.

Christ, does he have a physical body? No, he does not have a physical body. Was he raised in a physical body?

Absolutely, as a sign. I'm going to prove that to you right now. In the book of Luke, it says that Jesus was raised just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the heart of the great fish.

So also, as a sign, so also shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This is what he says. This generation is an evil generation. It asks for a sign.

No sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. For just as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so the son of man will be to this generation.

So when he rose from the dead and showed himself to those 500 in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, that was a sign to prove to them that he conquered old covenant death, separation from the holy place.

You couldn't get through the veil. When Jesus died, the veil was rent in two, symbolizing that we now are in the holiest of all in heaven itself.

Yes, in the presence, in the face of Jesus Christ. All right, John chapter six says, no one can come to me except the father which has sent me drag him and I will raise him up at the last day and then listen to this.

It is written in the prophets and they shall be all taught of God. Hebrews associates being taught of God in Hebrews chapter eight and chapter 10 with the new covenant.

Here, Jesus is associating it with resurrection. So what Sam is doing is he's splitting the resurrection from the new covenant.

Again, like he's interpreting 1 Corinthians chapter 15, he is disassociating the resurrection.

Thousands of years, for him, it could be 10 ,000 years. In other words, there's still a curse.

We're waiting for Christ to redeem us. There are some churches, there are even some preterists who believe that there's still a curse on the earth.

And someone asked, well, is he saying that everybody's a child of God? No, the Bible says you are a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The just shall live by faith. One life, one resurrection. Now, we go to 1

Timothy chapter one. Is Jesus, Sam says, I've never seen

Jesus, right? Well, if Sam dies, he still will not see Jesus. And here's why.

The Bible says now unto the king, eternal, immortal, invisible. The only wise

God. Is Jesus immortal? Yes. Is he king? Yes. Is he invisible?

Yes. We don't see the way Sam wants to see. Seeing is revelation.

We see God. We see him face to face. That's why it says the Lord smile.

Let the Lord cause his face to shine upon you. That is a spiritual. God is a spirit.

Those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Sam believes Jesus is still in the flesh.

But what did Jesus say in John 17? He said, Father, give me the glory that I had with you before the foundation of the world.

Was he incarnate before the foundation of the world? Absolutely not. That was a humiliating thing.

The Bible says who, though he was in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God or thought not equality with God is the thing to be grasped, but took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men.

He's no longer in that physical likeness. The Bible says that he came down in the likeness of sinful flesh.

He was born of a woman born under the law. But no, he's not. He's returned to that glory that the father gave him as per Christ's prayer request in John chapter 17.

All these things are signs. All the miracles were signs. Jesus said, which is easier to say your sins are forgiven or arise, take up your bed and walk.

But so that you may know that the son of man has power on earth to forgive sin.

Arise, take up your bed and walk. In other words, all the miracles were simply physical signs to prove the greater spiritual reality.

Jesus rose physically from the dead to show a greater spiritual reality that Christ dwells in our hearts.

Does he dwell in our hearts as a physical being? That's absurd. No, we talk about it all the time. We say people have accepted

Christ into their heart or as Ephesians says, that Christ may dwell. They were longing for it.

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. Or as 2

Peter says, you know, Jesus is called the bright morning star in Revelation. Peter says, until the day star, that's

Jesus, arise in your hearts. He is the dawning star, the son of righteousness,

S -U -N, who's come with healing in his wings. I am the light of the world. Physical light,

Sam. This is physical body. Is that the physical light? He says, I'm the bread of life. Is that physical? I don't know.

Do you believe in transubstantiation? Maybe you believe you have to physically eat Christ. I don't know what you believe.

Living waters. Is it physical living waters? Is he a physical river? No, the Bible says out of our belly shall flow rivers of living water.

That's the gospel. Christ is the power of God. He is the eternal, invisible, immortal

Logos, God almighty. That's very important.

So if Christ be not raised, it says your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins. What is

Paul saying? Christ's resurrection affects their status of sinfulness.

If he's not raised, they're not forgiven. In other words, if he doesn't dwell in us, if he hasn't cleansed us, if he hasn't conquered death, we're not forgiven.

Again, it's old covenant versus new covenant. And Sam didn't deal anything. He says 1

Corinthians has nothing to do with AD 70. Look at it. Paul said, you know, I called Gary DeMar out on this years ago when he was making an emphasis of the second person plural you.

When you see all these things, Peter, James, John, and Andrew, and he's like, yes, that's AD 70. I called him out on it.

1 Corinthians chapter 15. I said, well, Gary did a good job on the second person plural showing it was them audience relevant.

What about 1 Thessalonians 4? We which are alive and remain shall be caught up.

1 Corinthians 15. We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed.

Paul knew it. It was a guarantee. Even Paul said, I trust that the next time I come to see you, it will be in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel.

Sam did not refute anything. It was kind of a weird rebuttal. I'm trying to figure out what he was getting at there in his presentation.

I wish he had tried to show us that it was future, but he didn't. Hi, I hear a little bit of Gary DeMar in there towards the end.

Well, Sam, what I caught from that rebuttal was, hey, you're wrong. You didn't deal with the arguments.

What are you doing over there, man? Well, it was my impression that I was supposed to start with an opening.

And not my rebuttal is right now. Sam, I can feel the heat.

We got to save all the energy. Ward, thank you so much for your rebuttal. Sam, it is now your time.

And tell us, did you really deal with the arguments? Were you giving a presentation? What were you doing?

All right, when you begin to speak, I'll start your time. Well, I don't want to use the time to begin to speak.

I was under the impression that we started with our opening, and then now I'm doing my rebuttal.

Yeah, yeah, I'll start your time. That's why I didn't rebuttal. I've got a whole list of notes that I'm getting ready to launch upon Ward in my rebuttal.

This is my rebuttal. Sam, you're good. You're good, man. All right, I understand that.

So don't accuse me that I didn't answer anything I said. I just started with an opening, simply. Now, Ward's rebuttal didn't deal with the fact that Paul uses the

Jesus that died and was buried is...

All right, Sam, I love the energy coming off. I'm going to start your time with your rebuttal as soon as you begin to speak.

All right, so this is my rebuttal. So Jesus died and was buried and is, not was, and then shed his body, is raised.

This same Jesus, the angel says in Acts chapter one, this same

Jesus. In Acts 3, he's called Jesus of Nazareth. In fact, when he converts, talks with Paul, Paul recounts what

Jesus was saying to him and Jesus introduces himself as, I am

Jesus of Nazareth, whom you persecute. Did God come from Nazareth?

I don't know. Maybe Ward believes that God came from Nazareth or something.

But I affirm that the scriptures teach that we have the eternal logarithm, eternal son of God, who is in two natures, human nature, divine nature.

And we've affirmed this in the church for 2000 years. The fact that Ward denies this, he has to deny it.

Now, keep in mind, folks, I used to preach everything that Ward just said in his opening and rebuttal.

I used to say that for well over 10 years when I presented Ward's message.

I said it word for word, believed it, sold my business, moved my family, started a church, made great sacrifices.

Everything Ward said, I believed. I don't believe it now. I think it's nonsense. For example, he goes off on not seeing

Jesus. OK, 1 Peter chapter 1 says, though you have not seen him, you love him.

And even though you do not now see him, you believe in him and are filled with inexpressible and glorious joy.

Huh. I wonder maybe Peter is maybe he's a bit confused or something.

What does he mean by though you do not see him? I don't know. I think it means that they they've not seen him now.

I've not seen him. In that sense that Peter's talking about, obviously, here, or we have a massive contradiction on our hands.

Now, Paul also says that he saw him. In fact, in 2 Corinthians, he says one of the marks of an apostle.

Have I not seen the Lord? Have I not seen the Lord? Paul says. Did he see a phantom that he see now?

Now, did he see God? That's the nature of the son who is also God, the son who is invisible, who is immortal.

But Paul says that he saw Jesus of Nazareth. Have you ever seen

Jesus of Nazareth, Lord? Ate fish with him, dine with him.

You ever eaten with him, eat, sleep, drink, whatever with him. I never have. Maybe you have. I don't know. I never.

Now we know this because Jesus says, I'm going away and you will no longer see me.

Because I am going to the father. But I will send a comforter. So something's going on here in terms of the nature's is he can he be seen?

Can he not be seen? Well, it's both. So he's going away. He ascends to the father.

That's the human nature, the human son of man. And I saw the son of man as a phrase that means human being in Aramaic.

Ask any Jew. And I saw the son of man ascending to the throne of God. That's Daniel chapter seven, son of man.

Now, 70 AD, which word believes that was the coming on the clouds of the son of who? What? What?

Son of man. The man, Christ Jesus. For there is but one mediator, the man, the human being,

Christ Jesus. The one who died, was buried and is now raised and is at the right hand of the father of this same

Jesus. Ward denies this. He flat out denies it. He flat out says to you that he denies that Jesus no longer has his human nature.

Body that he died and through that body by his stripes. It's through that body.

That's the mediatorial body through which we're safe. He no longer has it. I don't know, but that means there was no salvation.

Then if Jesus ditched his body. You know what?

Also, James 2, 27 says the spirit separate from the body is dead.

So the human Jesus of Nazareth. Who had his own rational soul in mind, it was a man like unto us in every way.

He was a human being, had his own human mind, a human brain, human eyeballs, whole nine yards, everything we have, right?

This one that died on the cross suffered. That this same

Jesus, the very same one was raised again from the dead and that he is now the mediator and high priest for us in heaven through his blood.

Is that spiritual blood? Now, I know that Steve Bison and Holder Neubauer, they've got a wacky doctrine about Jesus's spiritual blood, not his actual blood.

His spiritual blood, his human blood didn't accomplish anything, but his spiritual blood that did. Well, you have to go through this nonsense because precisely because you cannot have

Jesus in. I want you to hear this because this is the road I ran up against when

I was a full preterist like Ward was and I wrote an article about it and it was called I got to get rid of the body.

We have to get rid of the body of Jesus. And I was, you know, Sopranos was popular at the time. And so, you know, you know, in a mafia movie, you got to get rid of the body.

We got to get rid of the body. So we had to get rid of the body of Jesus. Why? Because if the body of Jesus of Nazareth, that body of that guy, that guy that was born of the woman, if that ascended into heaven and was glorified, then that defines the nature of resurrection.

Because if that's his resurrection and glorification in the presence of God, his father as a human being in his human nature capacity before the father at his right hand, son of David, lion of the tribe of Judah.

If that's his. Appearance before the father as a human being in the body that died was buried and is now raised and in heaven glorified that same body.

Well, then that defines the nature of the resurrection of the dead for the rest of us. Logically, so Don Preston agreed with me.

We had this debate and I remember it because I said, Don, if we had and Don agreed. So I wrote the article and said, we got to get rid of the body.

And we did. When Jesus ascended to an axe, when

Jesus ascends, his body, but it, uh, and disappeared.

And what that means is, is that the human Jesus died two times.

He died on the cross. Body was separated from the spirit and he died again physically when he ascended, when his body again was separated from his spirit.

His spirit ascended and was absorbed into the Godhead, but his body didn't go with it, which means his spirit was separated again from his body, which means he died twice.

Now, of course, I couldn't get Don Preston to admit that, but that's logically exactly what it meant and forced me out of rhetorism because I looked at that and thought, well, that's just nonsense.

That just doesn't work because Paul affirms the man, Christ Jesus is the mediator and causing the man,

Christ Jesus, the human being. So I asked a question, you know, you believe 70

AD is the coming of the clouds of heaven. Who is it that comes on the clouds of heaven in 70 AD? The son of what sort of man human being is

Jesus God. Yes. In his divine nature is logos eternal sons. I affirm the Holy Trinity and I affirm the

Holy one person, two natures of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior blessed be his name forever.

Along with all of the rest of the church in all four quarters of the world, in all languages of the world, in all walks of life that have affirmed this.

When we read the scriptures, that's what it says. That's why we teach what it is that we teach in unity on this subject.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth died and was buried and was raised again and is now at the right hand, the man,

Christ Jesus, through whom, which he is our mediator by his intercessory prayer, because he can identify with us human beings.

And it gives us the hope that if this man has been raised from the dead, if God has given this man eternal, immortal life and has glorified him bodily, then praise

God, there is hope for us because he is one of us. And if he has been raised from the dead, then we shall also be raised from the dead.

Therefore your labors in this life, in this world, in this age are not in vain.

The dead shall be raised. So keep working, keep laboring, keep loving, keep serving, keep doing what it is that you're doing because your labor is not in vain because Jesus has been raised.

Therefore, the dead will be raised. Oh man, those are some good rebuttals from both of y 'all.

I think we're all getting a little bit of taste of the cross -examination that is to come. So thank you both.

You're both very passionate, respectful, and we're starting to see a little bit of that clash, and that's what makes a good debate.

So y 'all have about five minutes. This will be a brief intermission time. Stretch your legs, get some water, and I will see y 'all here in about five minutes.

Let me mute them. And I just want to tell you all thank you so much for tuning in to the

Apologetic Dog. All right, so I gotta address some things in the side chat here.

Let's see here. I want y 'all to know that my particular

YouTube channel, I love doing debates, and I love moderating debates. And so I had someone in the side chat tell me that I was being a little biased, and so I just wanted to maybe touch on this for a moment.

Let me see if I can find it. Oh man,

I don't know if y 'all can see it. Let me see if I can change this. If I'm able to figure this out,

I just want to tell y 'all that during the time of me moderating,

I definitely want to be absolutely fair, but I'm not mocking anybody. Orange Oki is,

I think he's a fan on the inside. Orange Oki is both a full preterist and a church of Christ.

So if you know anything about my channel, he checks both of the boxes of the things that I contend against.

And so Orange, just know that as I'm moderating the debate, I'm not meaning anything negative towards Ward. I'm going to be absolutely friendly and cordial.

So me bringing up Don Preston and Gary DeMar is not me being mean. I'm just telling everybody, hey, we hear you out there.

So and Orange, I really do mean that. There's no disrespect. I want to keep things a little bit lighthearted.

Two of my favorite debate platforms, Standing for Truth with Donnie and The Gospel Truth with Marlon Wilson.

I love how they have a particular style, how they host debates. And so guess what? At the

Apologetic Dog, it's going to be a little bit different. So people don't like that. They don't have to watch, but I want to give it a little bit of my own flair.

So y 'all tell me, how is the debate going? Tell me in the side chat. Let's see here.

I would look, oh, hey, John, I appreciate this comment.

Because I'm very disappointed with Gary DeMar. And if you've seen some of my recent episodes,

I've expressed that. I've actually invited Gary DeMar on my channel to talk with him, talk with him and Dr.

Sam Frost. And he just said no. And I was like, okay, I tried. Me debate

Gary DeMar. Hmm. I think it would be fun, but he is a little bit out of my league.

But the Apologetic Dog is not scared. I just like to know if I could step into an equal match.

So who knows? Maybe one of these days I can debate Gary DeMar. I'd actually like to have that happen sometime.

All right. What else are y 'all crazy people saying in the side chat? I love y 'all. I'm crazier than anybody else.

I realize that. So it's all in good fun. Let's see here. Anybody else want to say something to the

Apologetic Dog? Appreciate Steve out there telling me basically thank you for the debate.

Honored to be able to host this on my show. And get into some of the topics of the effects of full preterism.

And what do we think the Bible teaches in light of that. And so I really appreciate

Ward and Sam getting to state their positions. Let's see here.

Anybody else? Hey, Gary DeMar. Well, hold on.

Wayne is just saying Gary's asking questions. That's fine. He is asking questions.

And he's not answering questions that are being thrown towards him. He doesn't have to answer. That is totally up to him.

So I just with about 45 seconds or so. If you've not already liked, subscribed to the channel of the

Apologetic Dog, please do. If you've ever benefited from this channel at all, I just want to let you know.

Thank you for your support. Thank you for your prayers. Thank you so much for your engagement. Just know my heart is to represent the biblical

Jesus and the gospel that saves to the best of my ability to be able to express that. And so this is such a privilege to be able to do.

Let's see here. I'm being asked by an unapologetic cat. How do you like the debate?

I love it. Thank you for asking. We are on the same farm together. Okay, let's see.

I got to hit the horn for myself here. Okay, let's see.

Let's bring our interlocutors back in. I believe y 'all are muted because I hear y 'all taking notes out there.

I love that. Ward, have you been taking some good notes, man? I got the thumbs up.

Sam, how are you feeling? Great. Good to go. Okay, well, let's go ahead and start transitioning to the part that everybody loves in a debate.

To me, it's not really a debate, fellas, if you don't have a cross -examination. There are those that exist, but I'm like, come on now.

We got to see that clash. And so during this time, Ward, you're going to be going first with leading the cross -examination because you are the affirmative.

And so I will begin the time, Ward, when you begin to speak. All right,

Sam, you brought up a good point about Christ's blood, and you believe that it was not spiritual, but it was physical.

The Bible teaches that we have been sprinkled with the blood of Christ. We have been washed with the blood of Christ.

Have we been physically washed with and physically sprinkled with the physical blood of Jesus?

Well, Ward, there you're confusing the uses of the terms and metaphors, and you're mixing all these things.

So I could do this all day long and prove that the Bible is just complete nonsense. So obviously, there's a category in which the blood has literally, it's his literal blood, his actual blood.

I don't know what other blood it would be referring to. Do we have?

So you've been physically. Well, I'm asking you, yes or no.

Have you been physically, when the Bible says you've been washed in the blood of the lamb, are you saying that you have been physically washed in his physical blood?

Yes or no? I believe what that statement is saying, like the sacrifices of the

Old Testament pertains to the entire definition of what a human being is. Body, soul, spirit.

Paul ends his statement, I pray, this is typically Jewish. I pray that God preserve you body, soul, spirit.

He didn't leave the body out. The body is sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ. Yes. It will be raised again from the dead because by his stripes,

I will be healed. I'm saying, did he physically sprinkle you with his blood as the

Bible says? I have never physically seen Jesus. No, but through his physical blood.

Yes. That is being applied to me by the Holy Spirit. Have you been physically washed with his physical blood?

Yes or no? Does God have eyeballs? No, that's the question you're asking.

All I'm asking is for a yes or no, Sam. I'll say yes. I've been physically washed in the physical blood of Jesus.

And I've also seen the eyeballs of God rolling around on the dust. As he says, the eyeballs of the

Lord roll around through the dust. Okay. Do you believe Jesus currently has a physical body of flesh and blood?

Absolutely. Okay. Do you believe when we are raised from the dead in your idea of a future physical resurrection that we will have physical flesh and blood in the resurrection?

Okay. So when 1 Corinthians says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in the resurrection chapter, but yet you're saying your flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God.

What happens to flesh and blood, Lord? No, I'm asking you. Why does this have to be transformed and changed?

Because in the state that I'm now in right now, it cannot inherit the kingdom of God. In other words,

I have to die. In the resurrection, do you believe, see the Westminster confession of faith, which

I assume you agree with, it says that in the resurrection, it shall be raised in the self same body.

So will you have the very body that you have now? I will have the body as God gives to me, as Paul says in 1

Corinthians. It says the Westminster confession of faith, which I disagree with. You said at the beginning of this debate that you are not to bring up the church fathers.

Did you not say that was one of the stipulations? But you brought up all these funeral books earlier.

I did not bring up the Westminster confession. I've not brought up any church fathers. All right, then I'll ask you the question. Do you believe in the resurrection that you will have a physical flesh and blood body that you have now, the same one?

Do you believe that? It'll be flesh and body glorified and transformed. These are the words that Paul uses.

In fact, he says this explicitly in Philippians 3 .10 or 3 .21. Do you believe when the

Bible says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but you're saying it can?

Lord, this is simple to understand. As I now am in this flesh and blood body right now, as I now am,

I cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I have to die and be transformed and changed and raised again from the dead in order to inherit the kingdom of God.

So what you're saying is you will not have the self, you will not have the self same body of flesh and blood.

You will have a different body of flesh and blood. I will have this body that God will give to it.

The body that dies is the body that will be raised. Okay.

So when the Bible says it is when the Bible says it is sown a natural, it is being sown a natural body.

It is being raised a spiritual body. What is a natural body? Is it physical? Yeah, well, that's what

Paul uses the term just as natural. So he uses the term natural. We would anachronistically translate that as physical to bad translation.

What Paul means holistically, though, because he quotes Genesis 2 .7 in which that body is what he's referring to as the

Genesis 2 .7 body that God made Adam before he fell. He's quoting

Adam before he fell. It's that body that he's referring to and that body before he fell.

Paul is referring to that as the natural body. It's this body right here. Do you believe you will be raised a flesh and blood body or a spiritual body?

Spiritual is a term and you can go to any lexicon and any spiritual means of the spirit.

It is spirit induced. It is something that the spirit does. Spiritual.

That's what the adjective means. So when the word of God teaches the first man, Adam, was made a living soul, psuche, psuchikos, but the second man was the

Lord from heaven was made a life giving spirit. What's the contrast there?

Spirit versus flesh, physical body. I pushed back a little bit on that.

You just called him the second what? He's the second Adam. Right.

Oh, the second man. Paul says second man. Right. The second man.

Second man. Not second. So not second. So you agree not second chronologically, right?

No, he's Jesus is the second man. He is a man. Paul's affirming second. Wait, second chronologically.

Well, if he's the life giving spirit as a man, he has to be a man through which comes the life.

No, you don't understand what I'm saying. If Adam was the if Adam was the first man, so you say, and Jesus is the second man.

Are you saying he was made after Adam, like literally chronologically the second man? What do you mean by what is your interpretation of second man?

Well, Jesus of Nazareth was born in 480 or wherever you want to date that. Jesus of Nazareth does not exist on Earth.

So we agree. We both agree. We both agree. Paul is not saying he was chronologically the second man.

So what does second mean? What Paul is affirming there is that the first man,

Adam, was meant to live forever in immortality. That's explicit in Genesis chapter two and Genesis chapter three.

However, he sinned and through sin, death came to all men. We all know what death is.

And so God brings about a second man so that through a human being, because this has to happen through human beings.

God could raise anybody he wants to from the dead. However, we're the ones that are the recipients of the resurrection of the dead, because we're the ones that incurred death.

And death is a penalty of sin. So it has to be through a human being to bring about resurrection of the dead as it was through a human being that brought about our sin and that brought about our death.

So that's what Paul is saying. So when Adam is the first representation, Jesus is the second representation.

When Paul says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heavenly places, is he saying he's seated there physically?

Jesus is physically Jesus of Nazareth, the same Jesus, the man Christ Jesus is in heaven.

Yes. Body, soul, and spirit. Okay. So in Ephesians chapter two, it says he has raised us up together with him and seated us with him in heavenly places.

Are we physically with him at the right hand in heavenly places? Absolutely not. I'm in New Castle, Indiana.

I'm not in heavenly places. Okay. So Paul was lying. So you're saying that Jesus is physically there at the right hand.

But Paul says we're seated with him in heavenly places. Do you believe that? When did

Paul write that? Do you believe, Adam? Or sorry, I called you

Adam. Sam, do you believe that we are seated together with Christ in heavenly places?

No, I do not. But when did Paul write that? He wrote that before 70

A .D. Yes, he did. So I'm asking you a question, Sam. Were Ephesians in 54 A .D. seated in heavenly places with Christ?

No, you answer me first. Is it true? Do you believe that we are seated together with Christ in heavenly places now?

No, I'm in New Castle, Indiana. Okay. Paul says in Ephesians chapter two, and you who were dead in trespasses and sins, has he made alive together with him and seated us together with him in heavenly places.

But you're denying that. No, I'm not denying it at all. Paul's using an heiress tense there.

So read the commentaries. That's right. So, but I just asked you, are we seated together with him in heavenly places?

And you said no, even though Paul says we are. Okay. Then why does Paul being absent from the body, present with the

Lord? Because I'm not absent from the body. He's not present with the Lord. So am I present with the Lord? You need to answer the questions.

You need to answer the question, Sam. You just denied something that Paul straight up said.

We are seated together with him. Let me ask you this. Have you already been translated?

Nope. Okay. So when Paul said this, he has delivered us from the power of darkness,

Colossians 1, 12 and 13, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear son.

Do you believe you're translated into the kingdom of his dear son? Nope. Okay.

Well, good. So you're directly contradicting scripture. I just wanted to make sure everybody could see that.

I'm not contradicting scripture at all. I just asked you. That's what he said. Paul said it's better to be absent from the body and present with the

Lord. Was he present with the Lord when he wrote that? What body?

Yeah. See, the thing is, Sam, because he actually uses the word flesh. Do you believe, let me ask you this.

Do you believe this is my time to cross examine? Do you believe that you will ever die?

Oh, absolutely. I'll die. All in Adam died. I'm dying right now. So when Jesus said daily, when

Jesus says the one who lives and believes in me will never die. And he says that we have everlasting life.

Do you have everlasting life now? Actually, I use the harmony of the gospels in another place. He says, even though you die.

So he's acknowledging the fact. Do you believe you have everlasting life now? By faith,

I believe in the hope of everlasting life. Yes. Do you have everlasting life right now?

Are you alive? I believe by faith and I hope that I do and act accordingly.

Are you alive from the dead right now? No. Okay. Paul says, reckon yourself in Romans.

Romans, Paul says, reckon yourselves to be as those alive from the dead.

Are you alive from the dead? Yes or no? Oh, I can reckon myself by faith, but reckoning is not the actuality of death.

Anybody knows that. So when Paul says you who were dead in trespasses and sins, has he made alive together with him and seated us?

Were you dead in sins? I still will die because of sin.

The wages of sin is death, but I will die in the Lord. Are you dead in sins now?

No. Are you raised together with him alive in Christ?

No. Oh boy. Well, at least this is all being recorded.

This is very good. I'm glad that it is. Okay. I have a couple of other questions for you,

Sam. Do you believe Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? Absolutely.

That was the purpose and plan of God. He was slain for the purpose and plan of the foundation of the world. Was he physically slain before the foundation?

No. Oh, so you're saying, was he physical before the foundation of the world? No. So how was he slain?

That's not what that verse is saying. I agree. So how was he slain before the foundation of the world?

That was the eternal plan of God in the compact of the Trinity between Father, Son, and Spirit. But I asked you, was

Jesus slain before the foundation of the world? That's the economy of God between the

Trinity and the persons of the Godhead. If you want to get into that kind of stuff, Ward. No, Jesus was not killed before God created the world.

No. That's not what that verse means. Again, reading any commentary. So is

Jesus' glory physical? His glory.

In fact, he physically showed them his glory on the Mount of Transfiguration. He gave them a peek of it. So is his physical body glorified physically?

Is it physical glory? Also, in Revelation 21. Okay, so when

Jesus says in John 17, Father, give me the glory I had with you before the foundation of the world.

Was he physical before the foundation of the world? The glory that he had, he's speaking of the divinity.

Ward, do you understand? Ward, do you understand the language of the one person of Christ and two natures and how they go back?

But was he glorified on the cross? He gave up his life.

He gave up his glory. Which glory did he give up?

The glory that he has. He says all glory is mine. In fact, he shows them his glory. You just said, Sam, it was his divinity.

You just said that his glory was his divinity. Are you saying he gave up his divinity?

Ward, you are obviously confusing the terms between humanity and divinity. No, I just asked you.

When Jesus said, give me the glory that I had before the foundation of the world, you said that glory was divinity.

Are you saying that he lost that glory? The glory of the son that he obtained and that he had prior to his death while he was on earth, right?

Are you following? So did he lose his divinity? He lost his glory. So they saw his glory.

Peter says this. You said that the glory he had before the foundation of the world was his divinity.

Did he lose his divinity? No, Ward. He's not required to lose his divinity.

The glory is the glory. But the glory that he's speaking of is his glory of the divinity and the humanity because he was killed in Hebrews chapter two, quote,

Psalm eight, which states and having suffered by death was raised and crowned with what?

Glory and honor. Glory. What glory did he lose? Well, if he was crowned with glory and honor in Psalm eight, which is about human beings and he had that glory prior to his death, then he lost the glory as a human being crowned with glory and honor and he got it back through resurrection.

That's what the text is saying. So was Christ a physical body before his incarnation?

Yes or no. That's a nonsensical question. How can you be a physical body before the physical body?

OK, so then when Jesus prays, give me the glory that I had with you before the foundation of the world, was he speaking about physical glory or his divinity?

Ward, let me try to be as clear as possible here. And first,

I got to I got to know what framework you're asking these questions. Do you affirm the one person and two natures of Jesus Christ?

Absolutely. OK, one of those natures is what? Divinity.

And the other nature is what? Humanity. Was he eternally a human being?

No, that's not representative. OK, thank you. So when did this human nature have glory?

The Bible said, remember, you made a big deal about Jesus being a man, right?

He absolutely is a man. OK, in the Old Testament, the word of God says the

Lord is a man of war. It also says that I am not a man,

Ward. OK, so what I'm asking. So when we have

Jesus Christ coming and incarnating himself, the

Bible says it was in humility and as a servant. Is he still humbled as a physical being?

He's glorified and exalted. If you read the rest of Philippians chapter two, because of his humility, he became exalted above the name above every name.

He's now in glory. All right, I'm going to ask you some. I'm going to ask you some seemingly irreverent questions.

Does Jesus still have a colon? Or again, these types of questions that you ask.

So I'll say yes, he's a human being. OK, I don't know. Does he still could his body have lived forever had he not died on the cross?

Would it have lived forever? Absolutely. Was he growing old? Did he grow old?

There would have been a point in which he would have lived forever. He is the life. I am the life.

OK, did he sweat? So he did. Was he glorified while he was sweating?

Why not? Did he defecate?

I'm not going to answer that. No. Did he defecate? Does he still defecate?

I'm not answering that stupid question. It's not a stupid question because. I would not say that kind of real reference to Jesus Christ.

I would not say that. No, it's a stupid question. Well, it's not a stupid question because you affirm you place so much emphasis on a physical body and that you want this physical body.

Are you going to have male genitalia when you are resurrected? Yes or no? We will not be like men or women, as Jesus absolutely affirms, but we will be like angels.

Oh, OK. So you won't have you won't have the self same body. Oh, man.

Who make us as angels spirits. I don't know. Or maybe we'll look like ants. Maybe actually in our glorified body, when we get our new body in heaven, we'll look like slugs.

Listen, you can try and you can try and minimize what I'm asking you. But if I ask you, the whole purpose of your physical resurrection is function.

We have to ask, what is our function? What is our purpose as a physically resurrected being?

And if you are raised as a physically resurrected being, what's that? I'll pause the time. I just wanted to give you all a second to take a deep breath.

Y 'all are doing great, by the way. Ward, this is your time to manage your time, how you see fit.

You're doing a great job. But I also just wanted to chime in to say you got four minutes left.

You can continue down this line of questioning if you want. Now, this is

Ward's time to ask questions, which you've been doing a good job. And Sam, we want you to answer the questions which you have.

And it's kind of up to you how you want to do that. But I just want to tell y 'all, y 'all are doing a good job. But if you wanted to ask me anything, just remember, you can always appeal to me.

If you don't think your questions are being answered properly. However, I think y 'all have been doing a great job.

And we've been having a lively chat on the side. So I just want to let you know you got four minutes left.

Hey, keep doing what you're doing. Are y 'all still good? I'm fine.

Okay. Well, Ward, when you start talking again, you got four minutes left. Okay.

So the reason I'm asking Sam these questions is because I believe in function.

What is the function? What is the purpose of the resurrected body? Does it have genitals?

Sam says, no, they're like the angels of God in heaven. Well, the Bible says in Hebrews who makes his angels spirits and his ministers of flame of fire.

Angels are spirits. And so Sam just said he won't have genitals. And therefore, he will not have the self same body.

So what's the purpose of flesh and blood? Where will he have teeth? Will he have a neck and esophagus, lungs?

So he's saying that, oh, the only part that gets removed is the genitals. Well, will he have hair under his arms, pubic hair?

Will he have eardrums? Will he have eyes? What age will he be? You see, and this is absolute, futurists are notorious for dismissing these questions, just like Sam did, minimizing it by saying,

I'm not going to answer these questions. No, no, no. Just be civil, Sam. Answer the questions. Now, here's another question, since you won't answer those.

It says the sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law. Are you still under the law?

The law that Paul is talking about there. Absolutely. Okay. So in the garden, in the garden, it says in the day you eat thereof, of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die.

Did he die that day physically? No, he did not. Did he die that day?

Did he die that day? No. Even though God said in the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely say, die.

You're saying he did not die? No, he didn't. An animal died in his place.

So did God lie? God substituted an animal in his place. It's very clear that God substituted an animal in his place.

Did God lie when he said in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die? Did God lie when he told

Moses that adulterers should be put to death? Answer the question, please. And just answer the question. No, God did not lie.

Answer the question. Okay, so did Adam die in the day that he ate?

No, he did not die the day he ate. Death entered in through him the day he ate.

God said in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.

Okay, well, Paul says death entered into him the day he ate. Just deal with the statement.

In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die. God said that. And Paul said death entered into him the day he ate.

He didn't die, but death entered into him and began its work. Wow, this might even be a little wilder than our 2010 podcast.

Going back, I want, you know, okay, I got one minute left.

So the sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. Thanks be to God who is giving us the victory.

Very similar to Romans chapter 7. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Right? Definite articles there. I thank God through Jesus Christ. There is therefore now no condemnation.

So are you condemned, Sam? The judgment that brings condemnation that Paul begins with in Romans chapter 2 has not yet occurred.

And so by faith, the life I live in this flesh, I live through faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2 .21. Okay, so just to remind everybody, Paul says we were dead in sins, but he's made us alive together with Christ.

Sam denies that. Okay. Sam, do you want a quick thought to that last?

Okay. I don't deny it, but, you know, it requires a bit of Greek, so. Hey, fellas, y 'all doing a good job.

We love the energy. Some people in the side chat were saying, Jeremiah, was it necessary that you chimed in there?

I'm like, necessary? No, but I just wanted to check on y 'all. And I didn't take any time away from Ward.

Hey, Sam, some people said I was throwing you a lifeline. Hey, I just want to make sure y 'all are okay.

Y 'all are doing a great job. So that was 25 minutes of Ward Ucross examining.

Sam, now, y 'all keep that same energy because, Sam, the floor is yours.

And when you start speaking, I'll start your time. I just want to remind y 'all, Sam, this is your time to ask

Ward questions. And so we try to do that. You can answer a question with a question, but we like to be as concise as humanly possible.

Y 'all are doing a great job. So, Sam, I'll kick it over to you. All right. Ward, do you sin?

Not in the eyes of God, no. So you are perfect. That's right.

The Bible says I am holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight, as per Colossians 1, verse 18 through 22.

So you make no mistakes whatsoever. Not in the eyes of God. I'm as perfect as his son.

And you were taught directly by the Holy Spirit himself. Also be taught of the Lord. That's right.

Okay. And so what you say then is the word of the Lord. That teaching, if you look at it in Hebrews chapter 8,

John 6, Hebrews chapter 10, being taught of the Lord is the revealing of Christ as the fulfillment of the

Old Testament prophets. So that, yes, I've been taught of God by the gospel. So, but you could teach error.

Absolutely. You just said you were perfect. I am perfect in God's eyes.

That has to do with sin. It's sinning against God's holy commandment. I don't do that.

Christ fulfilled it. He imputed his right. Do you believe in imputed righteousness? He imputed his righteousness to me.

I cannot sin. The Bible says their sins and their iniquities, I will remember no more. God is not a liar.

I don't sin in his eyes. I disobey, but he doesn't count it against me. Not imputing their sins or trespasses against.

You just said that. Okay. So you were perfect, but you disobey. So what is it that you disobey?

God's commands. Oh, we're not under the commandment or the law of God anymore. Give me a command.

Which one do you ask me? Which one I'm under? It's been fulfilled. I have no command to give to you.

It's been fulfilled, right? Absolutely. Any New Testament commands?

Like, for instance, he says, let him who steals seal no more, love one another. But you just said you disobeyed the command, but we're no longer under the command.

How is that possible? Does that even make sense? Old covenant, Sam. All right. That's the problem with reformed theology.

They don't make a distinction between the covenants. But you said you disobey God. That's right.

I asked you, what do you disobey? And you said his commandments. And I asked you what commandments?

Would that be given in the New Testament? Anything that's given in the New Testament. Anything that's given in the

New Testament would be sin. Give me an example. So basically, then the new covenant.

So the law had its sin and condemnation. And then the New Testament comes up in the new covenant with its sin and condemnation too.

It basically just directs law 2 .0. No, it's if we sin, we have an advocate with the father,

Jesus Christ, the righteous. So we can't sin because he is our defense attorney who has stepped in our place as a substitutionary atonement.

Is this from the same passage that says, if we say that we have no sin. Right. He's talking to Christian Jews and Jews who are unbelievers in first John.

It's very clear in the first chapter. So that doesn't apply to us then. So that doesn't apply to us. That's correct. So that's right.

Because when we whole passage, then does not apply to us. That's right.

Because Colossians says he has given us all trespasses. All right. When Jesus said, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day.

Have you been drawn to the father? Yes. When will you be raised up?

I already have been the moment I believed in Christ. I entered the gates of the city and was given everlasting life, the life of Christ.

I was joined to his body, the church. But that's not what it says. It says no one can come to me unless the father who sends me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day.

So when, when, when was your last day? That was the last day of the old covenant.

Hebrews chapter 10, verse 25. So much more as you see the day approaching, the day is at hand.

The day of the Lord draws near. If the last day was 70 AD. Or we'll say

May of 70 AD when Titus knocked the temple over, we'll make that the time at that point in time right there.

That was the last day. So whoever was being drawn, that's when they were raised.

Now we're living in the 21st century, 1900 years after that last day.

So I ask you again, when will you be raised? I've already been raised.

The Bible says in Revelation 21 and 22, that through faith, we enter in, we come, come everyone that thirsts, drink freely of the water of life.

We enter into the gates of the city. And the moment that we enter in, I'm answering your question. I'm answering your question.

Allow me to answer your question. We enter into the gates of the city. And at that point, we become alive, raised up.

Were you raised in 70 AD? Was that when you were raised in 70 AD, which was the last day?

You just said that was the last day of the old covenant. And Jesus says, all who come to me,

I will raise in the last day. If the last day is 70 AD, was Ward Finley raised in 70

AD? No. But you just said you were raised in Jesus.

And Jesus says, I will raise in the last time. All of those people who were believers at that time were raised, gathered together in the dispensation of the fullness of times as one.

And since then, the gates of the city, the gates of the city are always open. And whoever enters into those gates through faith in Jesus Christ gets that everlasting life, and they are raised up.

All right. Well, that's not what he says here. But he goes on. He says, it's written in the prophets. They will all be taught by God.

There he's quoting Isaiah. And we all understand that there in that passage, he's Deuteron Isaiah. So there he's speaking of the spirit, this time of Messiah.

That's generally agreed upon also among Jewish literature. He's talking about the messianic, the messianic time that we taught by God.

Everyone who listens to the father and learns from him comes to me. No one who has seen the father except the one who comes from God.

Only he has seen the father. He who believes in me, I will raise him up in the last day.

And then again, he says, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains me. And I will raise him up in the last day.

And then he says it again. All who come and I will raise them up in the last day, which you just said was 70

AD. So how can you have a resurrection after the last day in the 21st century?

As I mentioned in Isaiah chapter 60, the word of God teaches that the gates are always open so that people may continually be entering in through faith in Jesus Christ.

So the last day is not 70 AD. That was the last day of the old covenant eon.

Okay, so when was your last day in which you will be raised? There is no last day after that.

There's no last day after the last day. You don't have a last day then. Correct.

So you're drawn to the father by Jesus, but you will not be raised in the last day.

That's right. They're just like snakes can bite my hand.

We've gotten rid of first John, that doesn't apply to us. So now John six doesn't apply to us.

So we will just keep moving on down the line and see what does. We'll see what does apply to us because all of this does not apply to us.

We don't sin anymore. We're not under the law anymore. So none of that applies to us. We can't go through that. Romans chapter eight refers to perfection and glorification, which you claim that you already have, but yet you still disobey

God, right? Jesus said the glory that you have given me, I have given them.

Did he lie? Do you have the glory right now that that Jesus was talking about?

You have that now? Yeah, I have 100%. Can you show me it? You know, like Jesus did on the

Mount of Glorification, you know, when he did his. Can you do that? Yeah.

Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your father. Which is the word that's used there is that Jesus actually transfigured in his face, shown as light.

So that was an actual thing that Peter later in his letter recounts and says, we saw the glory, we beheld it with our own eye.

So do you have that ability now? Yes, because here's the thing in Isaiah.

Can I answer the question? Yeah, sure. In Isaiah chapter 40, it says, the glory of the

Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together, the glory.

Luke translates it this way, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Salvation, glory, light, righteousness, they're all synonymous.

Yes, I have the righteousness of Christ. I have the glory of Christ. I have the light of Christ.

I have the salvation of Christ. They're all synonymous. They're synonymous. OK, since you have all that now and you're in heavenly places now and you're glorified, you're perfect, you still disobey the commandments of God, but whatever, which is the absolutely the opposite definition of perfection, but whatever.

When you die, what happens? I continue.

The Bible says whether we live. What happens to Ward -Finley? When you ask me a question, allow me to answer it.

Oh, yeah. What happens to Ward -Finley when you die? Romans says, whether we live or die, we are the

Lord. The Bible says we have everlasting life. We continue living everlasting life in the holiest of all in the presence of God, just without our physical body.

OK, so are you still going to be Ward? Of course.

What will you look like? There's no look to a spirit. I don't my spirit doesn't have a look,

Sam. Spirits are invisible. God is invisible. Those who worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth.

What was he seeing? When Daniel saw angels or when Moses saw, what were they seeing?

Nothing. They were having visions. God gave visions all the time. They're not really there.

They're visions. They're manifestations, visions. But are they there?

Paul said, we look upon the things which are unseen for the things which are temporal.

I'm asking you a pretty basic question here. Are angels real? I'm answering it. Are angels real?

Paul's. Yeah, of course. Paul said this. They have being them. Paul said this.

We look upon the things which are unseen for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal.

Unseen is eternal. Seen is temporal. So basically, when you die, whenever that is and whatever that is,

I guess what you can't say. I'm going to die and then go to heaven because you're already in heaven.

Correct. OK, so I guess it's just a. A shedding off of a meat sack.

That's correct. Not really you and what you really are. I don't have the slightest idea.

Because what did Paul say? Yet not I, yet not I, yet not I, but Christ who lives within me.

OK, then you are absorbed and cease to be in Christ. No, that's illogical.

That's a that's a logical fallacy. So then you continue to be. And I ever.

That's what everlasting life is. Christ is everlasting, eternal and mortal. And if we are going to look, the

Bible says anyone is in Christ. The Bible says if anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation.

So when you you believe that you're in all of this right now, it's just that the material physicality of God's creation prevents you from actually manifesting this.

Power that you have now. So somehow you're limited because you still disobey power.

What power are you talking about? The heavenly glorified spiritual power and every spiritual blessings and heavenly places power that you now have.

Right. The Bible speaks of power in these two areas. I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God.

And then it says God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and the sound mind.

It all has to do with loving one another and the gospel of Christ. That's the power. But I'm talking about after after you die or lose.

That's still the power. It's the same power. The same power that raised Christ from the dead has raised us from the dead.

Will you disobey God after you die? I don't know. That's a tough one.

It shouldn't be. If you are logical, you have to say, yes,

I still will have my own obeying God. I think it's after I die. I you know, when the

Bible says his mercies are new every morning. And his compassions never fail.

I believe that's eternal. And I don't know how I will think when

I drop this flesh. I don't know. I don't know to what ability. I will be able to withstand the things that I now don't withstand.

I don't know. So is that OK? Is it OK for me to not know? I don't think you know what's going to happen after this life.

Do you? Oh, I do. Paul's pretty explicit. When you die, when you die, where are you going to die?

And we will have no more evil or no more pain or no more sin or no more sorrow or no more sickness.

And that we will be physically healed through his stripes. And that we will be as Adam was on creation, inheriting, as Paul says in Romans 4, 13, the promises of Abraham is that he would be heir of the world.

In Hebrews chapter two, five, it is the inheritance of the Oikoumene, the inhabitable earth to which we look forward to.

That's just that's typically Jewish, too. The meek will inherit the land forever. The Sadducees questions that Jesus is being asked there, he goes back and he recites

Exodus chapter three, verse six. The reason why he does that is because that's covenant language.

Abraham was promised land that he set his foot on forever.

Did God lie to Abraham? The whole Bible is about covenant language, including first Corinthians 15.

Let me ask this question. Did God lie to Abraham? No. OK, so Abraham is going to inherit the land that he put his foot on.

He already has inherited Christ. He sought a better country, as Hebrews says, a heavenly country.

All right, that's great. That's wonderful spiritualizing there. But I'm going to look at that text and it says that's what the writer of Hebrews says.

Wherever your foot steps, and he was not stepping on Jesus. He was stepping on dirt. Wherever your foot trod, there shall be yours forever.

That's it's a Hebrew spiritual. I have to say. I have to defer to the apostles interpretation, not

Sam's, because Sam is fallible, the apostles are not. The apostles state this.

No, I didn't say that. So in Hebrews, it says, Abraham, these all died in faith, having not received the promises

God having provided some better thing for us. And it says they looked for a heavenly country, a heavenly city whose builder and maker is

God. That heavenly city is us, the church, the new Jerusalem. A heavenly what?

A heavenly city. A heavenly country. So when

God showed him the country that he was going to inherit, Abraham was looking for an eternal country. He was looking for a place where righteousness dwells.

And there is no more sin or sorrow or sickness or death or pain or misery.

To which you're saying, even after you die, you still may experience. Since you experience now, and you have the fullness of all things now, and yet you still experience sin, death, disobedience.

Then even after you die, you still will experience sin, death, and disobedience because you have the fullness of it now.

The logic is clear.

And if you have to die in order to attain perfection, which you do not have now.

And I can attest, Lord, that you are not perfect. And if you think that you are, you're selling people something.

I can say Sam Frost is not perfect. But by any stretch of the imagination, ask my wife, please.

I am not perfect. But the Bible says, and you, the Bible says, and you are in Colossians, it says, and you are complete in him who is the head of all principality and power.

And it says you are holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his eyes.

That brings up another question. And I have time to ask this because I've got this is another one that I wanted to ask you. So you believe that 70

AD was the last day. And that that was the day that God removed the old covenant imperfections.

And he brought about the perfections of the new covenant in the body of Christ. And so there's transference from the old body of Adam old covenant into the new covenant.

Now, everybody's brand new and perfect at 530 p .m. 70 A .D. in the month of Av.

Right on the ninth of the month of Av. Somewhere around there, God did something just was, you know, no one had ever seen it before.

So everybody was changed at 530, somewhere around 70 A .D. in May, the month of Av. Now, if that's the case.

Then how do you account for what we call suffering and death and misery and evil?

Is it is it real? Does it exist? Will you let me answer it?

Sure, go ahead. OK, the word of God teaches us in Isaiah chapter 33.

It's describing the blessings of the messianic kingdom. And it says the inhabitant of the land shall not say

I am sick, for they shall be forgiven their iniquity. Christ is our land, our portion, our inheritance, as Psalm 16 says.

Isaiah 53 says, surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. He has swallowed up death in tears.

There are no more tears. It's the tears of sin, tears of separation from the holy place.

That's that you can tell the people in Gaza and you can tell the people in Ukraine that that's fantastic.

Good luck with that message. Meanwhile, living in reality, I have to deal with this stuff almost on a daily basis as a minister.

And, you know, and with compassion and comfort and all the other types of things that I struggle with and draw upon the

Lord and other people in my life who are dealing with extremely severe things that are going on in their life, which

I just can't brush aside and say, it's not really happening. Get over it. But anyway, when

Paul wrote that the Ephesians were seated in heavenly places, what date did he write that?

Pre -70 AD. So it was already fulfilled before 70

AD. I'm going to teach you a hermeneutic, if that's OK, in answer to your question.

In Hebrews, it says we do not yet see all enemies placed under his feet.

In Ephesians, it says he has placed all enemies under his feet.

So Paul, many times he does this, explains the new covenant as it is a fulfilled event.

It was a short work in righteousness. That's how he explains it. But in other places, he explains the curious and peculiar.

In other words, he's doing what you just accused me of doing. Don't interrupt me, please. You asked a question and I'm answering it. The word of God teaches they were in a transformation period from old covenant glory to new covenant glory, 2

Corinthians 3, 6 through 18. You agree with that, right? Transition generation for 40 years.

Right. I get all that. I used to preach all that stuff. So Paul then did what you just told me

I could not do. Paul uses an aorist tense for something that was not yet completed, which is what you just said.

Which congratulations, the aorist tense can function like that because it looks at the completion, not in time.

I dare you to say, look at any Greek grammar. And this one's one of the best ones by Glass, DeBrunner and Funk.

This one's the actual this is like one of the top five. And you can go in there and read about the aorist tense, which captures the completion of the action, says nothing about time, nothing about time, just captures the completion of the action.

So and you're saying that's exactly what Paul was doing to the Ephesians when he wrote in the 50s for something that wouldn't be complete until 70

AD. But you're saying I can't do that. I can't do that because I have yet a confirmation that is not yet.

But you just did that. Would you deny that?

I answered your question. OK, so so then I'm giving that point because that's how the aorist tense function.

And so you have you got one point before the fulfillment of the actual 70

AD. So the other issues that are being raised here is you want audience and audience type relevance.

So why didn't anybody, Greek speakers who

Greek is their native tongue in the first century, second century, did not come up with the elaborate message that you gave in your opening today?

Are we just are we just. But yet we're perfect. We're saved, right?

We're filled with the Holy Spirit. We're taught by God. We're in the new covenant. We're in the fullness of God's presence.

But for 2000 years, God lollygagged around and somehow we just couldn't get it.

What happened? Where'd the Holy Spirit drop the ball at? That's my final question. All right, word you can you can answer that if you would like to.

God did not drop the ball. He fulfilled all his promises in the time frame that he specified. And he has brought the kingdom of God to earth.

And we are living in the fullness of his grace and risen life and presence in the holiest of all.

Hey, fellas, we survived. Barely. There there's guys you have to understand for where I'm at.

I'm like, should I jump in there? No, they got it. They're grown men. Hey, thank you all so much for sharing y 'all's point of view and doing it with passion.

It's so funny watching the side chat because people it's like they feel like they're in the debate with y 'all given their input.

And so it's it's definitely entertaining to say the least. Would y 'all like a few minutes to stretch your legs and get something drink like that?

I'm all right. I'm all right. All right, we'll continue to transition into closing statements.

Ward, the floor is yours and I will begin your time when you begin to speak. All right.

Well, I think it was it was pretty obvious that I asked some very probing questions to Sam, to which he gave some odd, odd answers, repeatedly, straightforwardly denying

Scripture, like actually denying Scripture. For instance, when I said when

God said in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die. And I asked him, did

Adam die in the day that he ate thereof? And he said, no. Did God lie? No.

OK, well, are you raised up together and seated with Christ in heavenly places?

As Ephesians speaks of all believers, Sam said, no, he denied it. Ephesians chapter two, verses one through six, and explicitly clear.

More important, however, is back to my original point. The word of God is about going from innocence, shame to innocence.

Tree of life in the garden. That's Christ. Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is the law.

Don't trust in the law. And so through the six day creation of the

Old Testament period on the seventh, God rested. We are his Sabbath. Psalm 132.

He is now resting in us. The Lord your God in the midst of you is mighty. He will save. He will rejoice.

He will joy of you with singing. He will rest in his love. So we are his Sabbath. He is our

Sabbath. We are his Shabbat. He is our Shabbat. We dwell in Christ.

He is our temple. We are his temple. Same thing. So that's what the whole

Old Testament was about. That was the six day period. And now God has rested. I will not rest, he says in Isaiah, until I make

Jerusalem a praise in all the earth. And that was Jesus, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross, despised the shame.

He did not rest. He brought us. The veil was torn in two. He brought us into the holy place.

In the Old Testament, only the high priest could go once a year into the holiest of all. No one else could go.

They were eagerly awaiting. Leviticus 16, 17 for the high priest to come out.

What Sam does is he doesn't realize the office of the high priest.

There was a first appearing at the altar, bringing the sacrifice before God. And the second appearing was coming out of the temple.

Well, that was the second appearing. The first appearing, he appeared once in the end of the age to offer up himself as a sacrifice to cancel sin for those who look for him.

They were looking for him. He shall appear the second time. That is the high priestly function. But this time it was different.

What the high priest in the Old Testament could not do because they died, Hebrews, Christ, after the power of an endless life.

He's cleansed us. He sprinkled us. And he brought all of us into the holiest of all. That's what the tearing of the temple from top to bottom symbolizes.

The sovereign work of God, not from bottom to top, which would symbolize the works of man. This is all the sovereign work of God to effectually pay the penalty, cleanse his people and all those who will believe on him and enter into the gates of the city.

There is no more shame. Whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed like Adam was in the garden.

You see, we have the tree of life in Revelation. And that symbolizes life and righteousness. And its leaves are for the healing of nations.

And there's this river of water. It's all beautiful metaphorical language describing the kingdom of God.

He that believes on me out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. When you come to Christ, you are holy and blameless.

The Bible says, and you who were enemies and alienated in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death to present you holy, unblameable and unreprovable in his eyes.

The Bible says, how much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living

God? Hebrews 10 verse 14 says, for by one offering, he is perfected forever.

Those who are sanctified. There's your tense, Sam, perfected forever.

There's your Aris tense. Yet Sam will not say he's perfect. He denies the finished work of Jesus.

I affirm it. I think I may be more reformed than Sam. Sam denies the finished work of Jesus.

It was a short work in righteousness. He denies the time statement. We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed.

Who is about to judge the living and the dead. Behold, I come quickly. But Sam says, no,

I come in 2000 years. Yet a very, very little while. And he that is coming will come and will not delay.

Yet Sam has a failed parousia fertrog, delay of the parousia. God is a liar in Sam's eyes.

All righty. Thanks so much for that closing statement. Sam, the floor is all yours.

And I'll begin your clock when you begin to speak. All right. Well, as to the first point where Ward said,

I denied the scriptures, the Ephesians who were reading the Ephesian letter when Paul wrote it in the early 50s.

What if Paul would have asked them, are you seated in heavenly places right now in 54 AD? They would have said, no, not until 70

AD. So Ward actually acceded that point and said, Sam, you got a point on that one.

So we can dismiss that now as to because I'm in Newcastle, Indiana.

I don't know about you, but that's where I'm at. So the other thing is the

Gnosticism, the radical, radical Gnosticism of Ward Finley, who completely and entirely divorces salvation from anything that God created.

Anything, nothing that God created short of your spirit gets saved.

The rest of it gets chunked. The rest of it gets junked. The rest of it is,

I don't even know what purpose that it has. Does it go on forever? Does it go on for infinity?

Does God just keep just, you know, going on and on and on? None of it will be saved.

And this radical separation, Ward could not even affirm the answer that when he does finally get rid of this monkey suit that he's in, which is about all that it is because God has no intention of saving it, resurrecting it, glorifying it at all.

I mean, at all. So if you got cancer, yeah, too bad. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't mean anything to anybody anyway. So, you know, who cares? Because you don't have spiritual cancer.

And that's really the kind of cancer that we care about, right? That's the one that we, you know. This radical separation is not scripture and it did not come from the

Bible. The Bible teaches through incarnation of our Lord and Savior, blessed be his holy name forever, the line of the tribe of Judah.

That the spirit and the flesh become one, which is what our mediator, the man, the human being,

Jesus is praying for us that we become one. But Ward doesn't have this.

Ward separates creation. He separates the creation of God, the sun, the moon, the stars, the trees, the animals and everything.

Genesis one, biology, just, you know, just, you know, the sun, the moon.

That's the same sun that they saw 5 ,000 years ago is the same exact sun that we see today.

And God does not care about that sun at all. He doesn't care about the earth, the trees.

He doesn't even care about your physical body, because all that's going to do is just rot into the ground. It's never going to be raised.

God has no intention of ever at all. So when you ask God for healing, like God, please heal me of cancer.

You need to actually just stop praying that because you're already healed spiritually.

So I don't even know why you'd even go to church at that point or the Lord's table or baptism.

You know, baptism is a physical application of physical water to a physical body. And there's a physical reason for that spiritual point.

But if baptism is just purely spiritual, why in the heck would you even have water? Water is created as material.

It's H2O. Why even involve it? Why even have it? Why would God even use it as a symbol? But God has no intention whatsoever of restoring all things, even though the billions and billions and billions of people in the last 1900 years have understood it.

When they read the simple, clear, plain text of the scriptures, we all have universally basically come to the same conclusions.

That God, and this was even the liberal critics who don't believe any of this, but nonetheless, they say, oh, yeah, that's what the

Bible teaches, is that God is going to make all things new in a new heavens and new earth.

It's Jewish. It's found in the literature throughout. Dead Sea Scrolls is found all over the place. And yet we don't have a clue as to what we're saying.

Nobody does until the full preterists showed up about 20 years ago to begin to spiritualize everything and reduce all the language of the

Bible to 70 AD. And so now, Ward is perfect.

Ward is without sin. Ward does not err. Ward is purely taught by the

Holy Spirit of God. I need to sit at the feet of Ward so that I can hear the words of God come out of Ward's mouth because he speaks them without error.

But if he admits that he does have error, when is that going to end? Well, not when Ward dies, because when

Ward dies, he's still going to be in error. You can have it. I don't want it.

Thanks so much for those closing thoughts. Y 'all ready to hop into the audience Q &A?

Yeah. Okay. I had to double check on y 'all. Y 'all been bringing some excellent energy.

Appreciate y 'all's closing statements. So as we begin to transition to the audience Q &A,

I want to kind of tell everybody the format here. So I'm going to try to alternate questions, beginning with Ward, throwing it over to Sam.

And so if the question is addressed to you, then you will have a minute to respond. And then our other opponent, other interlocutor, they will have 30 seconds to kind of share their thoughts as well.

So first question comes from Phelan, which

I know Sam knows Phelan. Ward, do you know Phelan McPhelan, by chance?

Well, you're about to get acquainted because this question is for you. So thank you so much,

Phelan, for the super chat. That definitely helps the ministry. And so the question is, question for Ward, if there is no more male and female in Christ, are same -sex unions allowable?

If not, why not? Oh, Ward, you are muted, and that is my bad.

Can you hear us? I can hear you. I'm sorry if you said something just groundbreaking a second ago.

I had you on mute. Did you hear the question okay? Yeah, I heard the question, and I don't believe that same -sex relations are sacred in the

Scripture or ordained by God or anything like that. I believe they're wrong, they're sinful, but they're not worse than any other sin certainly not worse than gossip or anything like that.

The Bible says there's neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So there's neither male nor female, but we still have physical bodies. And while we are in these physical bodies, we operate according to what

Christ has revealed to us in the Scripture. And in the Scripture, he says all kinds of things that we should and should not do.

Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. Let him that steals, steal no more.

Love one another with a pure heart fervently. There are all sorts of wonderful commands in the

New Testament. And so, yeah, if it says there's no more male nor female, that is not an argument that gives us license to do what we want to with our body.

It's just that that would be a bad conclusion to come to based upon the fact that there's neither male nor female.

All right, Sam, what are your thoughts there? Well, I don't know how you could say that because the only clear reference to a man not lying with a man as a man lies with a woman is found in the

Torah of Moses, which has been fulfilled and done away with, according to Ward.

So I don't see why not. The only appeal that you could make on the whole what we do with our body stuff,

Ward has to be very careful here, because in First Corinthians, Chapter six, Paul states food for the stomach and stomach for the food, but God will destroy them both.

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, for the Lord, for the body and by his power,

God. Oh, here we go. By his power, God raised the

Lord from the dead and he will raise us also. Oh, the body becomes important.

It becomes important what you do with the body. Why? Because it belongs to God and he's going to raise it from the dead.

And therefore, the commandments of God apply while you have the body, which is who you are.

It's identified with who you are. That's the problem that we have today. Appreciate that.

So once again, y 'all are doing a great job. If the question is addressed to one of you, you'll get about a minute.

We're a little lenient here at the Apologetic Dog. And then the other person gets 30 seconds to follow that up.

Next question is for you, Sam. Sam, why is there a third coming for the partial preterist?

What do you say to that? Uh, well, the partial preterists are almost as screwed up as the full preterists.

And that's how I became a full preterist is because the partial preterists, which we used to make fun of these people.

I think, Ward, I think we were running in the circles that came up with partial preterism as a pejorative, like you're partially pregnant.

And then we would all laugh and everything because we thought partial preterists were just idiots that just couldn't go the whole route, which they should because everything that they say, you know, 98 % fulfilled in the scriptures.

So for them that, yeah, they have to invent. Ward is correct. There's one end. There's one resurrection. There was one end of the age.

There's one eschaton that's being spoke of in the Bible. There's one resurrection of the body. The partial preterist who wants to stick to his creeds and yet have 70

AD icing on his cake too, has to invent another end at the end of some history that they've made up.

Because the Bible doesn't refer to that end at all in any way, shape, or form. Thank you so much.

Ward, what say you? So the question, why is there a third coming for the partial preterist?

Yes, sir. I don't know. It's ridiculous because the partial preterist says that Christ came in judgment in AD 70, and they imagine a third coming.

I was just reading in the pulpit commentary that one of the comments in 1

Corinthians, he believes that the destruction of the temple was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

And so there are a number of people who believe that the second coming was the coming in judgment against Jerusalem.

And when Jesus says, I will come again and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

That is what we call the parousia, or presence, or coming of Jesus. Thank you for that.

Now Ward, got a question for you from Adam Carmichael. That's my boy out there. He says, for Ward, he quotes

Colossians 2 .9, for in him, in Christ, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.

Dwells is in the present tense, right now. Reconcile this, please. Yeah, absolutely.

And I'll be straight up with you. I think it's a very difficult passage, but I would like to suggest something.

I would like to suggest something to you. The word of God teaches this, and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

So in the beginning, there's the logos. The beginning was word. The word was with God, and the word was

God. And the word was made flesh, past tense, right?

Was made flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld the glory, his glory as of the only begotten of the father.

Now listen, full of grace and truth. And then it says this, you think, oh, is that divinity?

Well, let's be careful. John, bear witness, cried, this is he of whom I spoke. He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me.

Now watch, of his fullness have we all received, and grace for grace.

So I think it's very possible that's what is being referred to. All of his fullness, the fullness of God dwells in us.

Not that we're deity, not that we are God, but his fullness dwells in the church as his body.

We are the body of Christ. The Bible says we're members of his flesh and members of his bones,

Ephesians chapter five. Sam, I imagine you disagree with that.

Tell us why. Well, the last part I agree with, we are members of his,

Jesus's flesh and bones. Yeah, which he still has, by the way.

Anybody reading, again, go to any commentary. Anyone reading Greek, and I've been reading it for about 30 years.

So anyone reading Greek here in this passage of Colossians, it's not a difficult passage.

It's a passage that states he's reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death, through death.

There's the death again. It's actual death. He died. So that's the body he's talking about.

To present you wholly in his sight without blemish and free from the accusation. If you continue, that's right now in the present.

So what's the goal? To present you blameless. That's the goal. That's the end, the eschaton. What do we do in the meantime?

If you continue, that's if you abide, if you continue. I like how my timers are just suggestions down there.

We got to have something on it. Hey, y 'all doing great. So keeping the same energy, Sam, we got a question for you coming from Steve.

He says, Sam, if our resurrection is exactly to be like Christ, will our bodies be kept unrotted like that of Christ or shall we need to be reconstituted in a way

Christ was not? Help us out there. Well, number one, it doesn't say that Jesus's body was unrotted.

I don't know about you, but when you're bruised and bleeding and stabbed and you have blood coagulation, which is a rotting of blood cells that form bruises and all of the different types of things, you're also punctured in the head.

And then you've been beaten several times. So that's all of all of the formations that they would have seen in terms of a nail puncturing into your hand, blood corroborate, blood begins to become corrupt at that point in time when you see it as being red.

Actually, blood's not red, it's blue. But when you see it being red, it's coming out and being exposed. It's being corrupted at that point in time.

Again, go to any medical dictionary and they'll tell you that. So when it says that Jesus, I don't know where you get this idea that Jesus's body for three days was without rot.

Where does the Bible say that? Don't let it go at that. Thanks so much.

Ward, what do you think about that? Oh, that's what

I was trying to talk to Sam about is Sam can't tell us what age he's going to be.

He believes we're going to be in the self -same body. He says that we're going to have flesh and blood, even though Hebrew or I'm sorry,

First Corinthians 15 says flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. Will Sam say that Jesus still has scars in his hand, a hole in his side?

Is Jesus in the self -same body? Again, does he have genitalia, a colon? Does he defecate? Does he urinate?

Does he still sweat? After all, he was sinless in the physical body. So was he glorified while in his physical body pre -cross, pre -resurrection?

Thanks for that. Now we'll start over with you, Ward. So question from Lumpy. What a name.

Where did Jesus' body go? Please tell us, Ward. Sure. He absolutely put off his body.

The Word of God teaches us. In Hebrews chapter five, verses seven and eight, it says in the days of his flesh, strongly implying that there was a time when he was in the days of his flesh,

Jesus offered up prayers and supplication with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death.

And he was heard because of his reverent submission, although he was a son, yet learned he obedience.

So there was a time when he was in the flesh. The Bible says that he ascended, acts, he ascended up into glory.

People always, how's he going to return in like manner if there are no clouds? Well, that's not what it's talking about.

The Bible says without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, believed on in the world and what received up into glory.

And that's the same way he will come in the clouds with power and glory. So that was the manner he left in glory.

And he returned in glory, powerful clouds coming on the clouds.

Judgment, Isaiah 19. The Lord comes swiftly into Egypt riding upon a cloud. It's just basic apocalyptic literature.

All right, Sam, what do you think about that? In other words, Jesus died twice, and I'd like to know which death his spiritual from the body, his separation of spirit from the body twice, which is the meaning of what death is, which death?

Was it the ascension death or the cross death that saved us? And since his body got burned up or obliterated or dematerialized or got banished or zapped or something, where does the

Bible actually say this? Word has to invent this, which is all that it is, a heretical invention.

All right, Sam, starting with you. Question for you, Sam. The Lord is a man of war.

The Lord is his name. Exodus 15, 3. Does this mean that Yahweh in Exodus was a physical man?

Does this show the intelligence of the person asking the question? The Bible talks about the eyeballs of God rolling through the dust of the earth.

Do you think God's eyeballs roll? So I would just say. So it's still my time here.

Moderator, moderator. Oh, my time. So, yeah. Let me pause,

Sam. Questioning one of the people's intelligence is ad hominem. So I don't think that's fair. Yeah, let's let's just try to answer the question as directly as possible.

Sam, you got about 35 seconds left on answering this question. If I answered that question, then

I'm going to infer that God is a lion. Because he says he's a lion. So he's a lion.

All right. You got 20 more seconds, Sam. I mean, God, when he says that he is a man of war, he's obviously making a comparison in Hebrew.

Again, go to the Jewish commentaries on this. He's making a comparison in Hebrew to men of war. And then he's saying he's a man of war.

Hebrew doesn't have to use the word like to make a simile or to make a point like that. God is saying he's a man of war.

But every Jew understands that God is not referring to himself as a human being. It's very simple. All right,

Ward. It's very interesting that Sam should say that. God is not a lion.

Except back 14 years ago in our podcast, I asked Sam, Hey, Sam, the

Bible calls the devil that serpent of old. Well, there's a serpent, a talking serpent in Genesis.

And I said, Sam, is there still a talking serpent today? And he said, I don't see why not somewhere. I said,

Sam, is there a tree of life today somewhere? Because he doesn't believe that tree of life in Genesis was Christ. He says, yeah, well, probably.

There's no reason why there shouldn't be. I said, Sam, is there a tree of knowledge of good and evil still today?

And he goes, well, yeah, I don't see. That's what the text says. I don't see why not. I said, well, Sam, the sun rises and the sun sets.

Do you believe in a flat earth? Now, to my friends who are flatter, many of them highly intelligent.

I don't agree. Okay. But Sam is this, he literalizes when it suits him.

But unfortunately, Sam, where is this talking serpent? He says it's still around today. He says that there's still a tree of life and a tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Can I address something when you bring up something that I said 14 years ago? Ward, can

I bring up what you brought up 14 years ago? Sure. Thank you. Next question.

Appreciate the energy. Hey, y 'all have been awesome so far. We've had almost 100 active viewers in the audience.

So I've been seeing a lot of good comments in the side chat. So here's an interesting question.

I believe this is for you, Ward. What do full preterists believe will happen after all life ceases in the distant future when the sun burns itself out according to the laws of thermodynamics?

Okay. I believe that the word of God teaches, okay. And I'm not dogmatic on this, but I believe it teaches.

I think that sometimes the language can be a little murky. Ecclesiastes, we were talking about it the other day.

I think Jeremiah and I were talking about it. But where it says, you know, one generation comes and passes, but the earth remains forever.

Whereas in Jeremiah, as long as the sun and moon, you know, if the sun and moon stop, existing, then

I will break my covenant with you and so forth. I believe that the gates of the city are always open and they will be eternally open.

And that God knows how to make this universe continue going on forever and ever.

He has countered scientists left and right. God is wiser than man.

His foolishness is wiser than the wisdom of man. And so, yes, I believe the gates of the city are always open.

It's eternal. I don't believe we're going to wear out. That's me. All right,

Sam. Well, basically what Ward has asserted there is that life as we now know it will go on for infinity.

It will never end. Suffering, pain, misery, rape, child molestation, immigration, all the problems, wars, abortion.

All of it will go on forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. This is what

Ward, Don Preston, and Max, you know, they all believe in this because they can't have an end to history.

Because if they have an end to history, then that means the reign of Christ ends. But somehow God's going to have the miracle of making planet

Earth last for infinity as we now know it. However, he can't raise the dead. I really like this question.

It's for both, and I'll give you each a minute to answer this the way that you like. But for Ward and Sam, each tell us what you think the gospel is.

And so, Sam, why don't you go first this time around? The gospel of God is a righteousness of God that is given to you through faith by the grace of God that is offered to you in the calling of God.

And the Spirit of the Lord is given to you, and it is freely given. It is freely received, and received by the

Spirit through grace, through faith. It is the work of God in the beginning. It's the work of God in the middle.

It's the work of God in the end. It is of God, through God, for God, and by God. Thanks, sir.

All right, Ward, please tell us your understanding of what the gospel is. You have a minute. I agree with everything he said.

Unfortunately, he left out the gospel. The gospel is that we could not save ourselves.

We could not come to Jesus. Jesus stepped in, paid the penalty on behalf of all those who will believe.

He suffered effectually in their place, wiping away all of the ordinances that were counted against us, all of those laws that were contrary to us.

He took them out of the way, having nailed it to his cross, triumphing over them openly, made a public spectacle of them.

He conquered death, separation from God, and has brought us into his smiling face and presence, having removed all of our transgressions from us.

And he will never remember them again. He's forgotten them. Micah 7, he's cast our sins into the depths of the sea.

He's removed them as far as the east is from the west. And the word of God says we're holy and blameless in his presence in the face of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for that. Throwing it back over to you, Ward. So, the scripture talks about when the

Lord returns and his holy angels with him, and that every eye shall see, do you believe that already happened?

Yes, I do. And rarely, if ever, does the word every refer to all people without restriction.

And if you look in Revelation chapter 1, it says, this is the revelation which God sent through his angel to his servant,

John, to show him the things which must shortly come to pass. And then he says, blessed is the one who reads and understands the word of this prophecy for the time is at hand.

And he said, all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. Those were the 12 tribes. And every eye shall see him.

He was talking about those people at that time when the Lord came in judgment. That's what the Bible teaches. The Bible says the

Lord is known by the judgments which he executes, just like in the time of Exodus and the

Pharaoh. God said he will make his wrath and power known. And he says, then they will know that I am the

Lord. They saw him come in judgment and they said, hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb.

So, yes, every eye saw him back then of those tribes. All right,

Sam, what do you think about that? Well, for Ward to answer the question, all of the language of Scripture has to be reduced to mere symbol and apocalyptic, you know, it's all symbolic.

So, yeah, I mean, you can do this all day long with language. But actually what Ward believes is that God raised the dead in 70

AD on the ninth of the month of Av. He changed the living. He judged the unjust.

He changed the world, transformed all things. Changed the living and brought in the whole new heavens and earth where there's no more crying, sin, sickness or death currently now as we speak.

All right, Sam, we have another. I'm hearing airplanes or something.

Which one of y 'all is that? It's me. Okay, I may.

It's an air blower outside. I'm sorry, the gardeners here at the church.

That's okay. That's okay, Sam. All right. Jesus died in order to demonstrate our death.

Does that mean when Jesus died, we also died physically? Well, Jesus, I am going to die physically.

When Jesus died in order to demonstrate our death. Does that mean when

Jesus died, we also died? No, I didn't die physically when Jesus died. He died 1900 years ago.

I'm still alive. Now, when I do die, which I am on my way,

I die daily. I'm dying daily. I'm heading towards the grave and nobody can do anything about it.

Not even Ward in his perfect state can stop me from going to six feet under.

That's where I'm going, heading towards the casket, heading towards death. So no, I didn't physically die, but my death will be counted as a death in Christ.

Dead in Christ. Paul refers to this phrase, dead in Christ, not dead in sins, but my death will be a death in Christ so that my death will be conformed to his death, likeness of his death, so that my resurrection will also be in the likeness of his resurrection, which

I'm not yet raised from the dead yet. I think that's quite obviously true because you just look in a mirror.

All right, Ward, what do you think? Yeah, I think it's a perfect example of where the word of God says that we were baptized into his death and we are raised in his resurrection.

And so when we died with Christ, for you have died with Christ, it's not a physical death, dying with Christ.

It is spiritually dying to sin and dying to self -righteousness.

So that's what it means. Sam totally misunderstands the scripture when it speaks about dying.

It's dying to that idea of self -righteousness. The Pharisees were, that was what, when we see that the baptism of repentance, it was an identification of solidarity, come out from among them and be separate.

That is what it meant to die. That is what it meant to carry your cross, to say,

I am aligned with Christ. I trust in his salvation, not my works. I am dying to my dung, my self -righteousness.

I have died with Christ and I am raised with Christ. It's all spiritual.

Absolutely. From beginning to end. Thank you for that. I got to do it one last time.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for coming on to the channel. It was a lively one. I felt like Donnie in the debate dojo, and I know that Marlon Wilson has had to moderate some doozies of debates, but y 'all's was very enjoyable.

Y 'all conducted yourselves like gentlemen, very respectfully and passionately, and we liked that.

And so as we begin to close it out, I want y 'all to be able to give some parting words. This isn't a closing statement again, but if you want to leave the audience with something and tell them where they can find you,

I definitely want to give you one last opportunity to do that. And so Ward, you go first, man. Sure.

Yeah. Subscribe to my YouTube channel, NCMI Live. If you would like to email me, it's wardfinley at yahoo .com.

You can also check out my two websites, eschatology .com and newcreationministries .tv.

And I am trying very hard to engage in these discussions with charity.

And I would just like to ask Sam and Jason Bradfield, if you would stop calling people names and stop demeaning them and stop disparaging them.

Don't question like you did, Sam. Don't question someone's intelligence. That's called an ad hominem fallacy.

You're attacking the character to the man, ad hominem. Stick to the argument. So please pursue love, speak the truth in love.

And please encourage Jason to do that because he's been very, very mean to me and a lot of people.

And I've been mean to him too. And I apologize for those past statements. I want us all to go through a cleansing of that spirit, that mean spirit and speak the truth in love and be more charitable.

I'm going to strive and I hope that the two of you would strive too. Thank you for that,

Mr. Ward. Sam, give us some final parting thoughts. Well, again, everything that Ward talked about tonight,

I used to believe fervently and devoted my whole life to it completely and entirely.

In fact, Don Preston still publishes one of my books, which I've asked him not to do. But he still publishes one of my books and it still sells and I still get people telling me about it.

So I understand Ward's message, which I used to preach. I don't preach it anymore because I think it's nonsense.

And I'm sorry that upsets Ward and that might be mean of me to say that. But where do you draw the line?

I think Mormonism is nonsense too. I think Scientology is nonsense and that's what I'm going to call it.

It's nonsense. Who would believe in something like this? So love to me is an action.

If Ward was hurt on the side of the street and his physical body was physically hurting, then

I would do something about that. I wouldn't just walk on the other side because I believe that Norm is involved with Harrison.

I would love and do the action of love and get him to a place of a hospital or whatever

I've got to do. That to me is what love is. But as far as agreeing and all this mushy -gushy we all got to love with, well, throw the

Mormons in there. I would throw LBGTQ in. Ward has no objection whatsoever against same -sex marriage or any of that kind of stuff by appealing to the ethics or norms of Scripture while we're in a physical body, which basically doesn't mean anything.

So my only thing in life is that charity. Yeah, I'll tell you charity,

Ward. I'll come on here and I'll talk. But that doesn't mean embracing your view as some sort of legitimate view, which it is not.

All righty. Well, hey, thank you both. You just said that I support

LGBTQ. That's false. That's a lie. I don't see why you don't. All right, fellas, we got to cut it off somewhere.

I do thank y 'all both so much for coming on here. And who knows? Maybe we'll have some more juicy debates relating to 70

AD and the topic of preterism. And maybe we can do it in love, right?

In a charitable, respectful way, even though we disagree with one another. I think everyone's heart here is to speak the truth in love.

I think y 'all did a good job of that. And so, gentlemen, thank you both so much for coming on The Apologetic Dog.

Thank you for having me. All righty. Y 'all have a good rest of y 'all's evening.

God bless. Thank you all for tuning in to The Apologetic Dog.

That was awesome. I just want y 'all to know, it's really hard to be the moderator.

And I'm glad I've watched a ton of debates to kind of get a feel of if the energy's right.

There's going to be over -talking, but it's okay. I want people to know that there is one person that's controlling their time.

And I've participated in, I believe, 11 debates now. And so I know that, you know, people watching might be like, hey, quit cutting him off.

And other people are saying, hey, he's not answering the question. That's a little bit of what the cross -examination is supposed to be.

It's just letting us see that organic clash take place. And so, as we begin to part ways,

I just want to ask you, if you've enjoyed the content from The Apologetic Dog, please like this episode in particular.

Please subscribe if you haven't already do that. Some people tune in a lot to The Apologetic Dog and haven't hit the subscribe button.

And that's okay. But if you do like it, I just do ask that you can support the channel in that way by subscribing, maybe hitting the notification bell, and sharing the content as you see fit.

And so, also, if you're in the Northeast Arkansas area, I'm one of the pastors of a plurality of pastors and elders at 12

Five Church. And I'd love to meet you one day, because this is one of the many ways that I would love to evangelize is through apologetics, standing on the gospel of grace.

And so that's it. Thank you so much for tuning in. And I pray that you all have a good rest of the evening. Thanks so much.