Apologizing for the Bible, Textual Critical Issues and the TR

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:31

Welcome to the Dividing Line. We are back in the big studio, which means God was very, very kind to me for What did you say?

00:40

4 ,500 something around there about 4 ,500 miles I'm only home for three weeks approximately

00:48

And then we're headed up to Utah. It's a short, it's a relatively short trip, but an important trip with the debate I'm also going to be doing some stuff in Cedar City.

00:57

I'm sure we have like tens of fans in southern

01:02

Utah Actually, I spoke in Cedar City before and we had such a good time together, we're gonna do some more.

01:11

They're in a very, very, very, very Mormon area and We're not talking, we're not talking new style

01:18

Mormon. We're talking old style Mormon in Cedar City. For some reason my son -in -law

01:24

Loves Cedar City. I'm not a thousand percent sure why but anyway And so we're gonna be, that's only a little over three weeks away

01:34

Lord willing, Lord willing And you keep helping us and keep supporting us.

01:40

I'll be going up there with a New fifth wheel in the back that we won't have, there's no way

01:47

We will have the studio done by then because we're breaking new ground

01:53

Well, I don't even want to use that phrase We don't want to break anything. Okay, really?

01:59

No, not breaking. No, sir. No warranty. What? Shh, quiet. I just realized the

02:08

Calendar in here is still in January of 2023 or something. Anyway so Lord willing, we'll be in the new unit up there.

02:16

Won't have the studio put together. So I'll be doing the Kitchen table routine, which is fine.

02:22

We're good with that. We'll make it work It's not a long trip, but we've got the debate.

02:28

Jeff Durbin and I will be doing the debate up there and Then home again Really less than three weeks and then the big trip through Texas all the way out to Georgia and the

02:45

Runner Academy in North Northwest, Georgia and everything else goes along with that and Possibility, possibility folks of a debate because then we've got

02:58

July Which will probably go into August a little just a little bit probably the first couple days

03:05

Which will take me all the way up to Minnesota and through Colorado and stuff like that, but then

03:12

September with G3 Be praying about this. We've got a possibility of a major major debate brewing right now

03:23

That would again it would probably end up being a 5 ,500 miler this time easily

03:31

But this would be this would Yeah, should be this I need to get these debates done while I've the brain is still semi -functional and This would be this would be a good one

03:45

So I'll let you know more about it as we as we find out more about possibilities and things like that So excited about that Go to aomain .org

03:56

donate Drop down menu bottom one AOMobile studio. That's how we will be able to do all this stuff and I started jokingly say that the reason people have so well supported the

04:12

Travel fund and and this stuff is they just kept me out of town all the time I'm just sort of wondering if my wife's actually independently wealthy

04:20

She's just donating here donating there different name here different. Yeah. Okay.

04:26

Here you gotta go again. Bye It's possible. Yeah, never know. You never know anyway

04:34

One of the things that I was going to comment on On last program. It didn't get around to it was the clip from Andy Stanley on Apologizing to unbelievers about our

04:47

Are Saying the Bible says this the Bible says them now what's interesting is

04:55

I discovered that Andy Stanley actually follows me on Twitter and so when I asked for The original link because someone had posted just that segment.

05:04

It's only about two minutes long Someone else had answered first, but eventually all of a sudden

05:11

I See that Andy Stanley himself Had provided a link now initially it was to a different.

05:18

It was actually something different And so I started jokingly said well unless you're a quick -change artist that's a different color shirt that you're wearing and and I'd given the link to the specific sermon.

05:31

It was a three -parter. So maybe you just want me to go from the beginning and it's interesting because Andy, of course did the unbelievable radio broadcast with Jeff Durbin on Unhitching from the

05:43

Old Testament. We've talked about the influence of his views

05:49

Regarding It's the Minimalist facts apologetic approach in essence where You know, he's basically saying

06:04

You know, it's not the authority of Scripture It's the reality of the resurrection and of course my response from the beginning has been

06:11

You don't know what the resurrection means. You don't know why the cross took place All of the entire apostolic interpretation of what all that means

06:21

Cannot be unhitched from the Old Testament the book of the New Testament that goes the deepest into rooting that historical event of the crucifixion book of Hebrews is is the the you know,

06:38

I'm actually looking we actually Rich was just doing some stuff with our current

06:43

RV that we're trading in and we had to put some stuff back in it that we had taken out and things like that and So it's sitting out and I can see it on my screen over here

06:54

I've got it It's not the best neighborhood. We've said that many times and so we keep an eye on stuff so it's parked out in the parking lot on on doggie the truck and So I'm keeping a keeping a close eye on it and it's still hitched to the truck even though it's on its

07:11

We put I put the struts down so that the jacks are down So it's stable while we know we're inside so we could work on stuff.

07:18

It's still attached to the truck and the book of Hebrews is Like that hitch fifth wheel hitch.

07:26

We're seeing a fifth wheel hitch. It's not small. It is that small. It's a it's a big heavy chunk of metal it has to be to do what it does and That's what

07:35

Hebrews is connecting the old to the new It's it explains

07:42

It puts it all together. There is no book of the New Testament that does not that goes into the depth of The why and the how of atonement like Hebrews does

07:52

But you can't figure Hebrews out if you're unhitched from the Old Testament you can't do it You it's it's just it's just a mystery book until you understand what's going on there and so We've we've criticized these things and we've tried to give a response to these things and there seems to be a trajectory going on I've seen a lot of stuff

08:16

Since the stuff was posted about gay Christians about what's going on at Stanley's churches type of situation in that fellowship how many people there are clearly gay affirming and What seems to be like the inevitable direction of Where they're going and I hope not

08:43

I don't want to see any of that When I when

08:48

I responded last time, you know, I'm a PK he's a PK I'm older than he is but not by that much

08:58

Maybe a decade. I'm not sure exactly what his age is. I think he's in his 50s. So it'd be less than a decade And I have attempted in providing a response to do so in such a fashion as to be fair and Maybe to say something that he would hear.

09:22

I mean, I don't wouldn't expect him to be listening to me But he is following me on Twitter. So maybe

09:27

I know what I am gonna do is I'm gonna send him this link Time index to when

09:32

I began my comments And hope that maybe something that I say will be of assistance because I don't want to see

09:40

I I truly believe that affirmation of Destructive self -destructive sin is the least loving thing that Christians can do and that in fact if God's moral law is

09:58

The mechanism whereby we are Given the light to flourish as human beings

10:05

Especially in light of the the secular insanity that is destroying our

10:12

Society around us then most loving thing in the world is to not is to is to don't don't unhook anything that God hasn't unhooked and So I listened to this sermon and what came beforehand and It really seems to me like in this context

10:36

Briefly, it does seem that there's Guarantee you one thing Andy Stanley does not preach nearly as long as Jeff Durbin does in fact,

10:44

I would say there's Probably I'd say Jeff averages twice the length of of Andy's sermons

10:54

But it seemed to me like there was an attempt to communicate a gospel message

11:06

But because of certain theological shortcomings The key and powerful elements of that message which would exalt the holiness of God and Call for the repentance of rebel sinners is

11:29

Muted in the sense that It becomes much more of a

11:35

God's trying to get you to recognize how much you're loved message and my concern we concern we have expressed many many many times is that when

11:50

God's holiness and his wrath against sin is minimized in the proclamation of the church the message of God's love and the cross becomes sticky sentimentality rather than the astonishing reality of what

12:11

God has done in glorifying himself and the demonstration of his own love and his own mercy and his own grace

12:19

Toward his elect people and So with that I want to play some of this and and respond to it

12:30

By the way, this is called fair use for everyone who? Is concerned about these things

12:38

I hope Everyone will recognize that it's that it's we are we are doing this for educational and critique purposes

12:46

And so there is a law about that, but we will see So let's let's listen to it.

12:53

I began to persecute the Jesus followers. I was wrong. I was an error I was an enemy and while I was alive on this earth and God knew everything

13:03

I was about to do Okay, I'm glad to hear that no open theism God God has exhaustive

13:10

For knowledge at least that sounds like what he's saying His son died for my sin anyway

13:19

Well, I was still a sinner Christ died for me

13:26

For us Before we did anything before we knew there was anything that needed to be done.

13:33

He did something for us two verses later He writes this He says for if while we were God's Enemies talking about himself and talking about some of us and all of us to some extent, right?

13:44

All of us to a far greater extent than we want to admit We can't you cannot you cannot under under play the enmity that sin brings while we were still

13:56

God's enemies Before we did anything before we knew there was anything to do he went ahead and he reconciled us to him

14:04

And how did he do it? He tells us through through through what through rule keeping through doing our best through making more promises

14:10

He says no, he would say look. I was the Pharisee of Pharisees. I tried that route. There's no peace

14:15

You never know where you stand. You just become judgmental. You mistreat other people thinking you're right with God No, we're done with all that through and this is the jumping -off point for some of you

14:31

Because this is this is the fork in the road. How How do you find peace with God?

14:38

He says I'll tell you how I tried the other way through the death of his son

14:46

Amen and very true, but what do the scriptures say the reason for that death was it wasn't to produce a strong emotional feeling

14:59

It was first and foremost To deal with the penalty of sin the broken law

15:06

So as to provide the mechanism of justification and our righteous standing before God so the problem is you can talk about the death of his son, but the why of that death is intimately hooked permanently to the law of God to that broken law to the whole history of sin and When we focus upon what the triune

15:36

God is doing in Salvation and then see how we benefit from that rather than starting with us and then trying to reason backwards

15:43

It all becomes very very clear. I Think it's important The reason that the gospel the reason that the arrival of Jesus the reason the message of Jesus is good news

15:57

It's because we don't good our way in We don't behave our way in any more than my children behave their way into our family best news of all

16:08

I Just point out in passing That the only way to actually make sense of what was just said is if you affirm the doctrine of election

16:21

It's not just the idea of you know, we're human beings and therefore we're just all

16:26

God's chillins. No, we're not No, we're not. We're not all God's chillins and this all makes sense a consistent sense when we

16:37

Understand what the Bible says about election. We can't bad our way

16:44

Any more than my children can misbehave their way out of our family.

16:50

They are my children. I am their father Regardless look up here But see again, the only way to make that whole together is

16:59

If God is the one who has chosen his elect people and has

17:05

Changed their very natures taking out that heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh This only makes sense in the sovereignty of God and but what

17:17

Andy you well know is reformed theology The stuff that you've

17:23

I think been very fully exposed to in the past Non Lordship salvation

17:31

De -emphasis upon repentance things like that the emphasis upon holiness really

17:38

Doesn't allow this to make any sense and for some of you you need to hear that Because you think but you don't know what

17:45

I've done Paul would say hey, let's let's compare notes But you don't know that what

17:50

I Andy I may promise I grew up in church and then I and I listen listen Paul would say I get all that But understand while while we were still sinners while we were enemies of God He did something for us and he did not require something from us to make things even

18:05

He's offering a gift Take it That's why it's why

18:13

Jesus didn't say you must behave again John was there for this when

18:20

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and Nicodemus was a smart Smart -educated guy and it was a leader in the temple system and he's trying to figure this out

18:29

And Jesus didn't say come on Nicodemus. You got to behave again. He said no Nicodemus. You must be born again

18:38

Because the law was simply confirmation of God's love for a people But you're born into a family and the law was simply

18:48

God's confirmation of love for a people It didn't it didn't reveal

18:54

God's holiness It didn't You know, you need to understand the book of Leviticus is

19:01

God is now dwelling with his people and They need to know how to live with holiness in their midst

19:08

That's what it was about But what it told us about was him and it tells us about our sin but I just You you must be born again is something that requires external sovereign power

19:30

Active in our lives, that's that's election. That's irresistible grace. It's the Holy Spirit of God It's taking out of the heart of stone giving a heart of flesh.

19:37

It's that Power of regeneration. God is inviting you to be born again into his family

19:47

So If you're wondering where you're staying with God and you keep looking at how well you're doing according to Jesus who rose from the dead

19:56

You're looking in the wrong place Why all the rules? Well for Israel God was not attempting

20:05

To make bad people good. God was keeping free people free free people free what

20:18

I Have no idea where you get that God was revealing himself to his people and showing them what it

20:28

What living must be like when he who is holy lives amongst you? They he had just set them free

20:39

But they kept trying to go back into slavery So I'm I'm not I don't know what you're doing with this law, but it's this law that required the cross

20:54

It's it's that the brokenness of that law that requires the necessity of the cross

21:01

And the same is true for you and the same is true for me with God with God as with all good parents the relationship

21:07

I'll always precedes the rules that and And the rules are simply

21:12

God's way of saying because I love you. Here's how I want you to live how about because I designed you

21:19

I Made you This is how you live to glorify me the focus keeps going back to the person rather than the

21:33

God who is doing all these things and Remember Ephesians 1 6 tells us what's what's the the final end result goal of all this?

21:43

the final end result goal of all of this is the praise of his glorious grace not not our peace or That's that's that that comes for those who are in Christ Jesus by faith justification imputed righteousness all that stuff, but the overarching issue is always

22:08

God's glory and then we are his creatures because I love you.

22:13

Here's why I want you to forgive Because I love you. Here's why I want you to serve one another because I love you

22:20

Here's why I want you to treat your enemy because I love you This is why I want you to take the log out of your own eye before you this is

22:27

I'm giving this is why how I want you to live because I love you and I know what brings the most happiness and fulfillment and peace

22:36

To follow the queue to follow the life to follow what my son modeled on earth

22:44

We are reconciled to God are made to be able to fit with God by grace

22:51

We choose to follow we choose to obey out of gratitude

22:57

And Jesus summarized it. So he made it so simple. He said here's all I want you to do Here's what it looks like to follow and obey me.

23:02

Here's your one rule I just want you to treat other people the way that I have treated you

23:10

Do not forget that once upon a time you too Were a slave

23:18

To close I want to okay. So here's where he Transitions into The clip that everybody was looking at and so I think it is

23:30

Relevant to recognize that he does this at the end of this kind of a sermon that there is

23:40

There is some gospel light in it But it's missing the balance

23:46

That makes the gospel so powerful It's it's it's missing what makes the gospel a command

23:55

Repent and believe And Maybe Andy thinks that's a good thing

24:03

But I would simply say the only way anyone's going to accept this invitation is

24:11

If by the Spirit of God their entire heart is changed and Then they need to know what to do when that heart is changed and that's the command repent and believe

24:25

So here it is kind of turn another page and I wanted to say something for two minutes to those of you who are not

24:31

Christians or not Jesus followers Maybe you used to be and you got away and or maybe you're part of a different religion or a different faith system

24:37

And I really want to apologize If one of us Christians has attempted has attempted to impose one of our

24:47

Christian rules on you I'm sorry You know anyone who said but the

24:52

Bible says or Jesus said or God, you know And they just try to impose one of their Christian rules on you.

24:57

I just want you know I am so sorry how you choose to live your life is really none of our business

25:03

Okay, and this is what caught a lot of people completely off -guard Because I don't know what

25:11

Christian rules you're talking about here But if if Jesus says it is better for a millstone to be hung around a person's neck than you offend with these little ones

25:23

That's not a quote -unquote Christian rule that's That's Jesus who rises from the dead is enthroned at the right hand of the father and who will judge the living the dead

25:35

Saying that if you are a Doing drag queen story hours and Seeking to groom children for homosexuality

25:46

Sexuality it would be better if a millstone and a millstone if you ever seen one is a big huge multiple multiple hundred pound rock

25:57

Were wrapped around your neck tied around your neck and you were drowned the depths of the sea That's strong language, it's very strong language and Maybe Christian rules would include 1st

26:11

Corinthians 6 9 to 11 which speaks of of thieves and murderers and gluttons and homosexuals and says

26:25

Will not inherit the kingdom of God, but such were some of you

26:30

But you were washed you were cleansed you were justified spirit of our God So There needs to be a washing a cleansing justification a turning from these things, but you have to tell people

26:43

What God's law is you have to say? Yes. God's Word has said this

26:50

You can't tell them even of Jesus's invitation

26:57

Well, if you want to call an invitation to deny yourself and take up your cross and follow him without going to the

27:05

Bible and You may think that well, it's it's enough. It's enough to say

27:13

That This is an accurate historical record No, that's an accurate historical record is

27:21

Insufficient to communicate to you the authoritative words of Christ Wherein he says deny yourself take up your cross and follow me

27:31

That that has spiritual authority and it has to it has to have that authority in the revelation by which it's given

27:37

So, I don't know what Christian rules are and I don't know why you feel the need to apologize

27:46

It could be and I said this the last time maybe it could be when you do not and in many

27:54

Southern Baptist contexts you don't have a Consistently developed

28:02

Understanding of the nature of Scripture you don't have a consistency consistent consistently developed

28:12

Concept of the authority of Scripture for all human beings because this is

28:18

God speaking This is how we know our God and you know, there's there's there's general revelation we know that he exists we should be thankful to him and That type of thing but to know him and to know his will requires this special revelation called

28:38

Scripture and So what

28:45

It's it's one creature Who has found the light who has been found by the light

28:53

Saying to another creature that remains in darkness Here's the light. That's a loving thing to do.

29:00

I don't understand Apologizing Because you're gonna confuse things here.

29:06

You're gonna say well, it's just none of our business and the text you're gonna use is

29:13

You're making a bad application. Let's let's take a look at it In fact, you're if you aren't really a

29:18

Bible person You're gonna I'm gonna show you a verse that you've never seen before that you're gonna love this This is for sure one verse that you're gonna agree with in the

29:24

Bible and and I hate to admit this in front of a Lot of Christians, but a lot of us have never seen or read this verse either

29:32

The Apostle Paul who again wrote half the New Testament about half the New Testament in the for this This is some of the most ancient

29:38

Christian literature. In fact, this is the earliest of his books this was before the Gospels and He's writing to some

29:43

Christians and he's telling them how to behave in a culture where they are the minority and everybody else

29:48

You know, they just don't buy it. You know, they just reject it Maybe like you do and here's here's what he said to them.

29:55

And if we have been doing this all along chances are You would not have been offended by one of us so this is completely on us, but this is what he said

30:04

You're gonna love this. He said make it your ambition. That is you need to focus This is a big deal front and center every single day

30:11

Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and you should mind your own business You're like that's not in the

30:19

Bible. Uh -huh And he goes on to say you should mind your own business and work with your own hands and take care of your own family

30:25

Just you know, just do your thing Why so that your daily life may may win the respect of outsiders

30:36

Where did we get the idea? Stay with me. Where did you get that? We get the idea that somehow we are to impose our

30:44

Rules our family rules on people who don't even want to be in our family

30:50

Okay, this is Andy. This is where you're just You're completely missing it. You're just First of all,

30:59

Paul is right in the Thessalonians. He's correcting some imbalances that they are experiencing and He is giving them very practical discussion none of this has anything to do with Proclaiming to the world

31:16

God's message of Sin and salvation and reconciliation

31:24

Let alone the fact that you know It would almost seem like you believe that the earliest

31:33

Christian writings we have outside the New Testament that did decay the epistle of Diognetus, for example Both of them very plainly show us that the

31:44

Christians recognized the sinfulness of the culture around them and Though it cost them greatly they did

31:53

Seek to live in a way the glorified God and That very often led them into conflict

32:02

With the society around them when the Christians would you know, both those early sources for example high sexual moral standards view of the marriage bed the early

32:15

Christians would go around and when people would expose their babies and leave them out in the trash pile to be eaten by the dogs at night the

32:21

Christians to Come along and rescue them and raise them as their own even though There was great hunger and and it cost them greatly to do these things they that this

32:31

This was not a statement to early Christians That they are to hide the light of God's revelation under a bushel this was not if What when when

32:47

Paul? spoke with Festus And And he became convicted what were they talking about They're talking about judgment and And and and holiness, where do you think

33:02

Paul was going? Well, he certainly wasn't unhooked from the Old Testament I can guarantee you that and there wasn't a

33:08

New Testament to be reading so he was bringing God's law to bear upon that man's conscience

33:15

That's what he was doing So unless you're saying Paul was contradicting himself here

33:22

This is this doesn't have anything to do About mind your own business means keep

33:29

Christ's claims out of society. It's not what it means It's not what it's even close to meaning.

33:37

So I don't understand this This drive to be apologizing unless you yourself feel you have been offended

33:49

And maybe you've seen so many situations where down south

33:58

Somebody abused and misused Scripture for their own political gains their own personal gains

34:06

They just didn't like somebody and so they used religion to their in an inappropriate inappropriate way

34:14

Maybe that's what you're talking about. Maybe that's what's in the background if you're thinking I don't know But where it's gotten dangerous is because you've disconnected from the

34:23

Old Testament Once you let's say let's say someone decides to take you up on your offer and Then we have the important question in our day.

34:36

What is a Christian to do in light of? the

34:43

The fact that there is a school in San Diego heard about this morning where they had someone in who was a former homosexual and Spoke about God's redeeming love in their life and now people found out about it and They want to kick them out of being able to rent

35:03

The school space any longer now, it's unconstitutional, but it'll happen anyways because Constitution is piece of paper

35:10

And it's only how many people want to actually want to Obey it that will give it any power

35:18

But These are these are rebel sinners and they don't want to hear what

35:23

God has to say but they need to hear what God has to say and Here is a woman that heard what

35:30

God had to say and was delivered out of that. We don't love people by accepting Their sin and by being silent about the solution for their sin

35:41

There's a vast difference between saying To the regular Christian living their life

35:48

Don't be running around Being busybodies work with your own hands

35:58

Don't don't be the the people that are you know, we end up seeing in Corinth There are people running around doing this types up to gossiping things like that and that I'm having problems with this alone and Thessalonica which is why

36:08

I have the second pistol has to be read because there's confusion about Resurrection the order of things and eschatology and stuff like that So I really think you just missed the point there and I don't know what the what you would then have to offer to people who turn to Christ and say well

36:31

All right. I I'm a follower of Jesus now. Well, what does that mean? It means

36:37

Jesus Christ is Lord Lord of your life Well, then I didn't know

36:42

I need to know what he wants me to do, what are you gonna direct them to If you've unhitched yourself from the authority of Scripture What do you have left we got it all wrong we got it backwards the rules are for family so Christians let's mind our own business and For those of you who've been offended by us because we didn't

37:12

I'm sorry. We got it wrong um If you are Andy if you are looking at Homosexuals people who

37:27

Transgender people who I don't believe there's there's no such thing as transitioning. There's no saying it's transgender.

37:32

It's It's all fantasy But if they're if they're who you're talking to and you're saying

37:38

I'm sorry that Christians have offended you by saying the Bible says that's wrong That is probably the worst use of Paul's words

37:45

I've ever heard of in my life it really is Really really is That's not what he was talking about.

37:52

I Could take you elsewhere in Thessalonians for some real strong language from Paul. That would be a little bit more relevant.

38:01

It is not loving It is not loving to withhold from people the light that they need and they may be offended by that light

38:14

That's what John says people don't like the light because their deeds are darkness, okay But we all know that's what

38:21

God uses and when the Spirit moves he uses that testimony to bring people into himself so No apologies, but all this really does come back to this

38:38

Disengagement you have made from the authority of Scripture and It's unique Life -giving capacity in a world gone mad in its own wisdom

38:54

We need those ancient words And we need to recognize the authority of those ancient words.

39:00

We really really do. Let's bring that down excuse me and shift gears

39:11

Shift gears. I'm trying to look at the clock and go where world am I? Took a lot longer on that than I than I expected.

39:19

Um Let me talk a little bit. We're good Really shift gears to the subject of textual issues.

39:28

All you geeks are all excited about that. I'm sure I don't believe the the the video of the debate with Thomas Ross It's but it's about ready to be posted

39:46

As I mentioned I had 18 slides understandable usable slides for my opening presentation and Thomas Ross had 256

40:00

And as I said last time he wasn't really there for the audience or or for convincing anybody of anything

40:09

He was he was there for his own small group and As a result did the

40:19

Machine gun rat -a -tat -tat throw everything out there, but the kitchen sink type thing Which no one can really interact with in a meaningful fashion

40:27

When you're reading stuff so fast is his dear little wife did a great job keeping up She was she was the one that people were impressed by not

40:35

Ross It's mrs. Ross That she could find those Slides that fast given how many there were but When when no competent adult

40:49

Could even read the material on the slides Fast enough before the next slide was up and even listen to it all was being said

40:58

You're not there to you're just there for yourself. You're not there to do anything for anybody else.

41:03

And so There's nothing you knew about that type of stuff So Anyway in The midst of that It took me a while to figure out what he was even saying it look it took me a long time to figure out what he was saying and I know a little something about this field so I Really doubt that anybody else in That room.

41:35

I'm not sure he fully understood this to be honest with you Once I figured out what it was he was saying.

41:40

I like oh that argument, okay That was he was he all he had with him was this volume here, so here's here's my set of Ruben Swanson's New Testament Greek manuscripts, so he had this one with him and Here's Matthew Mark Luke John Acts Romans first Corinthians and Galatians and So I've had these for quite some time and they're they're very useful

42:14

And I was I apologize I was gonna take a camera shot so I could put up on the screen Sorry, I'm not gonna hold up from the camera and expect that doing

42:24

But he was holding this up while saying that Swanson documents,

42:32

I think he said over a hundred places in the Gospel of Matthew Where the

42:37

Nessie Island where there is no Manuscript that contains the text found in the

42:44

Nessie Island and when I first heard it, I'm like What I mean, you know the the other side loves to go after one

43:00

Incredibly minor text in first Peter or second Peter somewhere in Peter where The Nessie Island has gone with a conjectural amendation, which

43:10

I reject which there's no reason to accept it It's the same one that when I asked

43:15

Bart Ehrman in 2009 If there was a any place that he could think of where the original reading did not exist

43:24

I was the only one who could come up with Which says a lot But I was still trying to I was trying to figure it out and finally

43:33

I Figured out what was going on The argument is when it's

43:44

Expressed for the purpose of someone actually understanding what you're saying, which it wasn't being done in this case the argument is that When you have say a verse

44:01

Entire verse in Matthew That has let's say it has four variant units in the verse which means

44:13

I can pull up the CBGM database right now We could we could look at something in the in acts or mark or something like that You can look at a verse and you'll be able to see where there are variant units and vast vast majority of these involve articles or Or prepositions and things like this, um, which may not actually end up impacting the translation into English But The argument is that When you look at the text that the

44:51

Nessie Island presents as its main text now it gives the References and then you can look at the textual notes and stuff like that But in the main text line the argument is that there are times when you have the choices that they have made in What represents the the best original text reading

45:18

Doesn't appear in a singular Manuscript that we that we possess now, that's just a an argument from the majority text perspective

45:31

So the majority text perspective is saying You know going back to Pickering and stuff like that that mathematically

45:42

This would be the most likely text type of situation and all this represents the fact that after say 900

45:54

AD The vast majority of manuscripts that are produced which are the vast majority manuscripts that we possess are produced in one particular area and The text has been pretty much solidified by that point in that particular area

46:10

So it's a majority text argument saying well There's no there's no manuscript that has that exact line in it.

46:19

The problem was he was waving this around and If you know what this is

46:26

And I even he had this on his table I picked it up and I was looking at it going

46:33

I Don't know what he's talking about What's fascinating is this uses

46:39

Codex Vaticanus as its base text uses Vaticanus as its base text and so What you what you have?

46:53

is Variants the Line is put in in a form and and the variant along the along the right -hand side to show how it varies from Codex Vaticanus So every line in here has manuscript evidence, it's

47:16

Codex Vaticanus minimally For the vast majority of the text it's it's all manuscripts.

47:22

I mean the one thing that the CBGM has documented for us is the amazing consistency of the

47:32

New Testament manuscript tradition It's not this just just big jumbled mess that people would like to present it as at all

47:44

There are very very very very very high rates of Coherence for a vast majority of the text and when you have variants what

47:55

Swanson provides you there is What those variants look like in comparison to Codex Vaticanus and so It just seemed to me that either he didn't understand what he was saying or The whole point of the repetitive presentation of it was to try to implant in the minds of the hearers

48:15

Though the speed he was speaking. I don't know that anyone caught any of it at all to be honest with you

48:23

That The modern eclectic text Cannot have any possibility of Representing the apostolic text and Once you communicate that idea then it's just like well, we're just gonna throw

48:43

Throw all this out and we we need we need a certain text and so we're gonna glom onto the

48:48

TR and we're not gonna worry about the fact that the TR has its own history and it has its own unique readings and it has readings that just couldn't possibly

48:58

Go back to the Apostles, but we need something and so that's what we're gonna go glom on to And that's what a lot of people end up doing unfortunately, and it

49:10

Again, it's trading truth for certainty You trade the truth for certainty and you may just feel so warm and snugly

49:21

Having made that decision, but it doesn't mean you have truth any longer All you've got now is certainty and I know people who are absolutely certain that the

49:29

Quran is true and absolutely certain the Book of Mormon is true and Certainty is a wonderful thing if if it is based upon truth so Like I said,

49:43

I don't know when the the video is gonna drop but you'll you'll see what I mean And maybe somebody will go along.

49:48

I'm not gonna waste the time to do it, but somebody may go along and You're not gonna listen to that debate it at two times speed 1 .5.

49:57

You're not gonna be able to listen that debate at one speed The only way to even begin to check out what

50:04

Ross was saying would be to drop it down to about 0 .7 and stop and start

50:11

That would be about the only way to do it because it was just It was just that rapid -fire set fast

50:18

So I said last week while I was on the trip That I wanted to look at one of the chapters, it's a short chapter chapter 13, maybe

50:26

I don't think that's relevant there's our chapter in The why

50:34

I preached from the received textbook came out 2021 2022 somewhere in that area by Brett Mullen Who Is the one that makes the most reference to me and And so I wanted to Take a look at that.

50:56

And so we'll do that right here It says I still remember where I was in the late 1990s as do

51:04

I when I first heard dr James White on Hank Hanegraaff's the Bible Answer Man broadcast talking about White's recent book the

51:09

King James only controversy I was recently converted to Christ at the time and I was drinking as much Bible teaching and doctrine as I could find and Hanegraaff I've been satisfying my thirst on that day

51:18

I was fascinated by every word. These two men said well, they were talking about the KGV itself manuscripts history are taking calls

51:25

Desiderius Erasmus and other names seemed to roll off their tongues effortlessly, even though I had never heard them before I Knew on that day that I needed to learn what these men knew.

51:34

Okay, I Continued as a Hanegraaff listener for many years and I went on to read a few of White's books his articles and I benefited from his debates

51:42

Both men taught me much about truth and error. I did not automatically believe what they taught I checked out for myself as they taught me to do.

51:48

Well, that's Good as a young Christian. I was vehemently opposed to Calvinism in An effort to bolster my arguments.

51:55

I decided to buy Norman Geisler's book chosen but free by the way I'm gonna be joining the class there's a intensive class this week at GBTS own strands teaching it and one of the things they're doing is they're comparing chosen but free with Potter's freedom and So I I said hey if you'd like me to pop in via zoom

52:20

There's lots of background information that might be fascinating to Everybody to know about how that all came about and so Thursday I'm gonna be popping into the class and and doing that so be should be interesting.

52:35

I Read both books and in the end real I realized that I could be an Arminian no longer God used white to own my eyes to God's sovereignty.

52:42

I'm grateful for God's kindness to me in that. Well, that's wonderful in The spring of 2001. I wrote an email to James White and he wrote me back.

52:51

I Was amazed that he had written back to a nobody like me But I was also struck by how long and thorough his answer was

52:58

He clearly took my question seriously, even though I was a stranger and it was a private email. I Wish I remembered that but that's 22 some odd years ago, and I've I wrote a few emails since then

53:11

So it's I've slept since then as rich likes to say They start talking about some other reading that he did like a

53:20

Metzger and airmen, of course, I suggest people skip the airmen Edition of the

53:26

Metzger book talks about some of the translations he used He says

53:32

I began to dig deeper in the state of text criticism I began to read them the Metzger airmen book more slowly than I was able to do in seminary that book took on a

53:40

Devotional tone to me like that caught me. I don't understand that. I Mean, I've obviously read it

53:48

Uses textbook again tried to avoid the fourth edition But I don't understand devotional tone

53:55

That that never took on a devotional tone to me. That's for sure For years

54:01

I had listened to White's debates with KJV only it's like Gail Ripplinger never debated her we did a radio program and That was the last time she ever let herself

54:12

Be put in a position of having to answer questions from somebody was a critic But Gail Ripplinger is loony.

54:19

I mean You know, that's why Kent Hovind's loony. I see he thinks

54:25

Gail Ripplinger knows what she's talking about The Ripplinger line is a clear line Once you get get to the

54:32

Ripplinger line, you've got Ruckman and all the rest of that cultic insanity out there

54:38

Because it is it's just wackadoodle stuff past that particular line but most people on Our side don't take that kind of stuff very seriously

54:53

Well, don't take it seriously at all I mean, I take it seriously and that it splits churches and stuff like that. So I responded to it exposed it demonstrate it was crazy, but Anyway And white seemed to defeat them all usually rising above their personal attacks and sometimes the debates were downright hilarious

55:11

Especially the Ripplinger debate. Well again the radio program. Yeah and it was but I Think anybody can tell the difference between that and the televised discussion.

55:23

It wasn't again A real formal debate on Revelation TV from London in 2011

55:32

That would be a very different Jack Mormon Is wrong about all sorts of things, but he's not

55:38

Gail Ripplinger So I think most people can see that along the way

55:46

But then he starts saying as I continue to read the modern versions more doubt began to set in my mind

55:54

The translational differences, but especially the textual possibilities in the apparatus of the Greek New Testament Began to bother me more than ever.

56:03

I Just I just have to stop and ask So if you were reading the King James that had all the original translator notes in it

56:10

Which included the variants things like that would that bother you too? Would you want to go back to the

56:15

Geneva the bishops because this newfangled King James guy is is is strange

56:22

Previous previously I've been able to ignore the differences because I was just an average Bible reading layman in ministry

56:28

However, I had to preach the text before I could preach the text. I'd be sure what it was yet Sometimes I was unsure

56:33

I had internal struggles because of the unsettled text Well, don't you realize?

56:43

This discussion has been going on since the early church Have you have you've you said you read the

56:51

King James only controversy, how about the conflict between Jerome and Augustine on Translational issues canonical issues

57:02

What happened the rioting that took place when the Latin Vulgate was first read from people who were used to the

57:08

Greek septuagint? Does does that bother you because that's all long before TR They had to deal with these issues

57:19

So, why would you think that you don't have to deal with these issues, what why do you get off? Freely when people for centuries before you this was regular reality of what they had to deal with Then he says he was called out of his first pastorate into a prison ministry context

57:44

And he said most of the inmates were African American and used the King James version, but I used the ESV I was listening to white and handograph again, and I was being edified

57:52

Because he said he was having to apologetic work. Okay Then he mentions and this is interesting.

57:58

My heart was broken as I heard the news that on Easter Sunday 2017 Mr. Hanegraaff was chrismated in a

58:04

Greek Orthodox Church Although I never took Hank to be infallible. I often found his opinion to be well -informed

58:10

He usually encouraged people to research topics of themselves rather than simply to adopt his opinion I had a hard time respecting his conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy But I think

58:18

I might understand it better now Hank went from atheism to evangelicalism and Therefore did not have a church background which gave much emphasis to ecclesiastical history

58:27

Well, I was never a hundred percent certain exactly what

58:32

Hank's journey was But he himself claimed that he was at some point a part of a reformed church that would have had a confessional document

58:44

I don't know how long that was. I don't know how formational that was But he did seem to indicate that Like many people who leave an evangelicalism it may be that he believes evangelicalism is non -historical as Ed Setzer Ed Setzer or I think it's

59:00

Stetzer. Yeah, and others argue and He says

59:06

I also appreciated White's critique of Hanegraaff's conversion. So He had listened when we did

59:13

I don't know two or three programs or something like that around that time almost 20 years earlier, however

59:24

White had assured Hanegraaff on his show That the text of the

59:31

Bible was not a sure thing, okay, this is the first point where I'm like Okay, now we're seeing

59:39

Where we're gonna have to start Coming up with a different perspective was not a sure thing if you mean

59:48

That textual variance exists in the manuscripts again, that's not even a questionable issue

59:57

Ironically, I would think that Hanegraaff's conversion to orthodoxy

01:00:03

Would include a conversion in his view of the text to a form of Byzantine Textual commitment

01:00:15

But on what basis? Because the traditions of Eastern Orthodoxy.

01:00:23

So here's someone can who is Upset at Hanegraaff's conversion

01:00:31

But doesn't seem to realize that his own adoption of a received text position is a

01:00:39

Traditional thing. It's traditional just like Hanegraaff's acceptance of the authority of Eastern Orthodoxy tradition.

01:00:48

Isn't that weird? It seems strange to me The implication of White's teaching about the

01:00:53

Bible was that it had been corrupted by additions from the quote Orthodox Who allegedly added the ending to Mark the woman caught in adultery in John 8 and 16 other verses being either added or corrupted for example 1st

01:01:04

Timothy 3 16 again for someone who claims to have read my book sometimes

01:01:10

I'm like What? What do you mean? additions from the Orthodox I I I don't take a in fact,

01:01:22

I disagree with Ehrman and his Orthodox corruptions perspective so that's not where I'm coming from at all and As to the longer ending of Mark I have serious questions about the orthodoxy of the long granting to Mark.

01:01:40

Jesus didn't appear in different forms I don't I don't think we're to Handle snakes and drink poison and things like that So, I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean the woman caught in adultery,

01:01:56

I don't know the Orthodoxy or lack of orthodoxy of The origination of that oral story.

01:02:07

All I know is it appears multiple places in John and it appears in Luke And it doesn't appear in any written manuscript before the 5th century so those are just facts

01:02:22

You can you can dislike those facts you can you can say well If you accept these facts, then you might become

01:02:30

Eastern Orthodox or something doesn't make any sense You can you can close your mind to these things and just put them aside and go that bothers me too much

01:02:38

So I'm just gonna I'm gonna grab this thing over here and I'm just gonna stop thinking about the other stuff But that's how you trade truth for certainty, but it's not a truthful certainty and then first 2 in 316 well,

01:02:54

I've explained that one over and over and over again, and That's that is a error of sight the difference between Haas and Theos there is one

01:03:06

Maybe two depending how you read it Horizontal lines on a papyri that that's not

01:03:17

That's that's not some purposeful thing going on there. There's no way of proving that that's purposeful at all

01:03:23

So I'm not sure even where all of a sudden, you know Learned a lot from them, but I didn't really listen all that closely

01:03:35

And then all these uninspired additions were removed by the 19th century revision committee

01:03:42

You've been reading way too much Bergen. You're a hundred years behind You're And if you've listened to me much, you know that This isn't about 19th century revision committees, you know anything about CBGM or anything like that, you know

01:03:59

We're not talking about anything in the 1800s at all And I don't know where the term uninspired additions comes from Because we could look at we could look at the deletion if we want to use that terminology of And such we are at first John 3 1 in the

01:04:20

TR and the King James It's not an addition. It's a subtraction with no historic confession and No Bible that was on sure footing

01:04:34

It makes sense that Hank would leave evangelicalism in search of a church with stronger historical foundations

01:04:42

I don't I don't think that I Have not heard because with this one,

01:04:52

I have not heard Hanegraaff make any comments whatsoever. I don't listen to him anymore But a lot of people send me stuff when he does make specific claims and we have responded to Some of the stuff, you know, some of his attacks on Sola Scriptura.

01:05:06

We've responded to that But I don't think at all that his perspective is

01:05:15

That he's now Byzantine priority and That's given him a sure footing in the

01:05:20

Bible because if you deny Sola Scriptura, you're not looking for a sure footing in the

01:05:26

Bible you're looking for a sure footing in tradition in Liturgy of the church, especially in in Orthodoxy Maybe if white had assured

01:05:35

Hanegraaff that God's Word had been kept pure in all ages as Owen and turrets had had the 17th century

01:05:40

Rather than corrupted by the Orthodox a different result may have taken place Hanegraaff says he converted because of theosis, but these matters are always more complex than one issue

01:05:53

Okay, so Maybe if I had told Hank That we should ignore

01:06:02

Everything that's been discovered since 1633 all the papyri all the unseals

01:06:10

And we should just glom on to the work of a 16 early 16th century

01:06:18

Roman Catholic priest and Theologian and scholar by name of Desirius Erasmus that somehow would have kept this from happening really

01:06:27

You really think that? You really think that if Hank had been a TR only guy

01:06:34

See that would that would not be any barrier To going

01:06:40

Orthodox because they're Byzantine text anyways That's what I I mean Seriously, this was really bad argumentation really really bad really bad sorry about that brother, but So then he starts talking about some of the once he finally starts reading

01:06:59

Letus of course anybody can read my interactions with Letus William Burgon again hundred years out of date

01:07:05

Edward of Hills dealt with How did you only now run across these guys when

01:07:12

I wrote about in my book? Well, I did Hills anyways, I Hadn't I didn't have the interaction with Letus until the year after my book came out

01:07:22

But it was an extensive interaction But I I dealt with Hills In the

01:07:28

King James only controversy. It sounds like well, I found these guys But if you had read me you would have already found those guys.

01:07:36

I Was familiar with James White's criticisms of these men, but I had not read them for myself So I began to pour over these men's works and I was amazed they had not have the foolishness

01:07:45

I found so common in KJV only us and it became ever clear that these men were not so much Advocating for a particular

01:07:51

English version as they were standing for the Catholic faith and the Catholic Bible as it was handed down for the Apostles That's just not true.

01:07:59

They will not allow for any they did not allow they're gone they did not allow for any improvement to the

01:08:07

King James Version as long as you as long as you will Stand there.

01:08:13

You are a King James only just as much as Gail Riplinger is you may not be nearly as wacky But you're just as much of a one

01:08:24

It says it became clear to me that these men were not inventing something new but they were defending the Reformation view itself

01:08:29

Demonstrated especially by John Owen Francis Church and William Whitaker and the framers the Protestant Confessions. No, they were not.

01:08:35

This is historical Anachronism these men did not have a critical text. They did not have the papyri

01:08:41

They did not have the unseals in the form that we have it today They did not have the vast majority of the material to be able to know the differences in the text and therefore to bring them back and to Anachronistically drag them up here and make them actually taking a position on a subject that they didn't know anything about is

01:08:58

An abuse of church history that I am so tired of UTR only guys doing it is anachronism and it's abusive.

01:09:04

Stop it Stop it. They did not have the information. We have you cannot make them take a position on this subject.

01:09:12

It is wrong if you have any Integrity in church history.

01:09:17

Stop it It's wrong It's wrong to do Then there's a you know, the then the funny thing is then you have this

01:09:27

There's a section where all these King James translators. There is so far beyond Anybody we have today that sounds great except for one thing

01:09:36

You don't listen to the translators read the preface The King James translators

01:09:44

Did not believe in the infallibility of their own translation. They did not believe it would be the last

01:09:50

They would be absolutely mortified if they knew there was a King James only movement today They did not follow the idea that well, hey what we've gotten in the manuscript today is the final word there's gonna be nothing more

01:10:04

We were done. That's it didn't do any of that kind of stuff and in fact, they wanted the text to be in the everyday language of the people as It was when it was originally given

01:10:19

Which our writer here does not accept as he's going to say Yeah, these men in prison actually had dictionaries and use them

01:10:32

It has been a delight to preach and teach in the same version they have in their hands and they have appreciated as well so I'm gonna make the prisoners use a

01:10:39

Bible translation where they have to have a Dictionary to figure out what it's saying and every single King James translator would say wrong

01:10:47

So why elevate them at one point and another go? Well, I know they said that in the preface to the readers, but we're just gonna sort of ignore that part

01:10:55

Not a good thing to do Then he runs through a couple things like with lead us chapter 5 argues that modern

01:11:03

Bibles contain a heretical reading of John 1 18 I'm assuming that's monogamous. They asked I've never seen anyone even get close to anything but wildly circular and horrible arguments on that one

01:11:18

Even though they were divorced from history in that version meanwhile Reformation Protestants abandoned the KJV in the

01:11:23

TR I learned that there was more depth than first appeared when I used to listen to James White's dismissals of these men

01:11:32

Show me if you have any integrity brother, you will demonstrate Where my interaction with lead us or my interaction with Hills?

01:11:41

Was in any way deficient you didn't even try this is just pure cheap shot. That's a cheap shot

01:11:48

Show me where I heard in my Analysis of hills in the King James only country go read the pages and pages and pages and pages am

01:11:54

I going back and forth theater elitist or Some tear a bit tear advocates like to insult

01:12:06

James White, but I do not find that helpful. Yay. I Do believe dr. Riddle defeated dr. White in the two debates of October 2020 how

01:12:17

It's real simple real simple brother Help me out here I Demonstrate conclusively in those debates that Dr.

01:12:33

Riddle uses one set of standards Depending on what textual variant is looking at he used a completely different set of standards

01:12:44

With a long writing of mark that he did for Ephesians 3 9 completely If you apply the standards he did over here to here you have to change

01:12:53

Ephesians 3 9 and then you have to reverse him If you can't use the same standards all the way across your position is hopeless

01:13:04

It's truth traded for certainty. So You know, he says

01:13:13

I still benefit from White's books and his debates against Romanists cultists and Muslims I appreciate a stand against woke ism all men have feet of clay and I learned from a wide variety of men with whom

01:13:23

I may disagree on some issues. That's wonderful. That's why you're still my brother but in reading

01:13:31

Your entire Article which then ended right after you said that you said the 16th and 17th century

01:13:38

Protestants were correct that God has kept his word pure I Believe the same thing except I can actually deal with the facts and the manuscripts and the history

01:13:48

Including everything they didn't have you can't So why put yourself in that position

01:13:55

It's more comfortable What does that accomplish? Then accomplish anything at all

01:14:05

So Brett Malin or Malin least at this writing a

01:14:14

Covenant of Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Orland Park, Illinois well

01:14:20

Brett, um, I appreciate all the kind words. All I can say is your chapter is sort of indicative of Why the position you've adopted is indefensible

01:14:35

Hate to have to say that that way but it's true and believe me

01:14:41

That had nothing to do with Hank Hennig Rath conversion some of us know a whole lot more about that and Had nothing nothing to do with it at all.

01:14:51

So all right, there you go. We actually went what 15 minutes over something

01:14:58

Hey, we're back in the studio And unless All that tapping you were doing on your phone out there had anything to do with anything

01:15:10

Okay, and that's what I figured. Oh, well, all right So anyhow, all right, so, um,

01:15:20

I know on Thursday that's the day. I'm doing the little guest lecture

01:15:27

Hey, let's talk about the background of this book Thing it at grace, but I think that's

01:15:35

I'll have to look at the time I was looking at this morning and I've forgotten what it what it was.

01:15:40

I think It is at 1 p .m

01:15:47

So we'll see We'll see how Thursday looks we'll try to try to get our regularly scheduled program in One way or the other

01:15:58

Because let me see I'm looking here at the calendar and yeah whoo one two, three

01:16:07

Three and a half weeks or so Before we are on the road again

01:16:13

Right before I leave Skillet will be in town and we were hoping we were really hoping to drag those poor people out of their bus and Go do something fun with them and that's not gonna work, unfortunately, but they want us come over and hang out like we did last time before the concert and just do the things that we do because they're

01:16:42

John I continue to talk we we talked for quite a while on the phone as I was driving in yesterday about It's it's frequently cultural issues, you know biblical application stuff things like that, but You know when when

01:16:56

John Cooper has to stop rocking and You know age finally catches all those jumping off of stages finally catches up with his knees

01:17:06

It's gonna happen He's gonna have some very Beneficial things to be doing

01:17:14

I think in the future, he's a solid guy and Good mind good mind good mind.