The Here I Stand Theology Podcast "Authors Insight" on RULES FOR REFORMERS w/ Doug Wilson

Here in just a moment. We're gonna have a very special guest on the podcast Y 'all might know his name

Starts with the D and sounds like Doug Wilson. Yes, Pastor Doug Wilson from Moscow, Idaho We are going to be talking about his book rules for reformers.

So hang tight for just a moment We'll be right back Here I stand

I Can do no other God help me

Will you recant or will you not since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple

Reply, I will answer unless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason

And not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves My conscience

Is captive to the word of God to go against conscience is neither right nor safe I Cannot and I will not

We can't hear us. Yes, sir. I Can do no

I can do no other God help me. God help me All right

Welcome to the hereby stand theology podcast where we are a podcast devoted to a pointed and Spirited debate of biblical doctrine as we mentioned in the teaser there.

We've got a very special guest in the studio Well in the studio live via the interwebs in any case he is here with us.

Let's not delay any longer Let's just go ahead and bring him in. Mr. Doug Wilson That was very that was very nice Well, we aim to please we aim to please

So glad that you're with us Doug today thankful This is your second time being on the here

I stand theology podcast. We appreciate your time in your effort in your energy

I do want to say this personally. I appreciate the work you do as a minister as a man of God appreciate your stance

And I just want you know, we love you in the Lord. So that being said We've got a a couple of things.

We'll jump right into here I know you've got a lot as we mentioned pre -show. I know you've got a lot on your plate So we'll just we'll get right into some of the the heavy stuff right here at the beginning

I don't know if you remember the first time you were on the podcast We asked you a very important question

We explained that this really sets the tone for the entire podcast our entire time here

My question to you. The first time was if you and Toby Sumter had to arm -wrestle who would win?

and your insightful answer was It doesn't matter who

I would arm -wrestle They would win and then you paused and you said because I would let them win

Yeah Yeah, and so just just for to be completely transparent

That didn't hit me till about an hour or two after we finished that episode and I'm like, hang on a minute

That was snarky So so the question for the current day is this in light of your and James Watts Debate tomorrow on payto communion.

If you and if you and James what had to arm -wrestle who would win? It'd be a stalemate

It'd be a stalemate. Oh Here we go again I Would win

Doug we are going just to be kind of going through a few to get some insights and really and truly this is just on the

Section one of your book. There's so much good stuff in this book and Just there's so much practical information practical truth that we can apply

And I know that you know on the On the page before the table of contents you give that you put the

Chesterton quote there But really the final part of that Chesterton quote was but reform is a metaphor for reasonable and determined men it means that we see a certain thing out of shape and we mean to put that into shape and Most importantly and we know

What that shape is, right So so tell us a little bit because I know

I know most of our audience knows you But there may be some folks that are just getting to know you becoming aware of who you are in your stances

You are a lover, of course of GK Chesterton Yeah, correct.

Correct. Tell us a little bit about how your How your love for his writing grew?

So it It began when I was a freshman in at the University. I Went into the

Navy first so I served my just under four years in the Navy in the submarine service and so I came back to college and majored majored in philosophy as an older freshman, so I was

I was 22 as a as a freshman and started taking philosophy courses and started to Encounter the fact that many of these learned 50 pound brains who run the world are are out of their minds, you know just like Good It's just good grief and somewhere in my freshman year.

I picked up Chesterton's orthodoxy which was sort of a lifeline of sanity while I was studying philosophy, he's just Nothing but horse sense and it's just really good sturdy common sense and And so I I fell in love with Chesterton then and have been reading him off and on pretty regularly since then

Awesome awesome. So in in this book This is if if folks have really done the study or even read the introduction to your book

They realize as the the title of it. The intro is a tip of the hat to Saul Alinsky.

Can you? Communicate to the audience just a little bit about who Saul Alinsky is although he was a leftist

Obviously, you're not as in as the book states, but how you came about Writing the book here, right?

So he was a community organizer. Shall we call him? in Chicago in the mid 20th century and He was a leftist a hard leftist and but a brilliant tactician he he was just really he was brilliant and he wrote a book a very influential book called rules for radicals and that that book was one that I was introduced to at the early end of Obama's tenure, so Alinsky had a big impact on Obama Saul Alinsky had a big impact on Hillary Clinton and somebody said hey, we conservatives need to check out where a bunch of this is coming from so I Picked up rules for radicals and read through it.

There were there were a lot of takeaways that conservative Christians can use Some things obviously we couldn't but something many things that we could

And so what I did was my father had written a book called principles of war back in the 60s and he what he did is he took the military principles of Physical warfare and applied them to what he called strategic evangelism and so what

I did is this book is sort of a Mash -up inspired by Saul Alinsky on the one hand and my father's book principles of war on the other

Trying to equip conservative Christians who are sort of it at at sea when it comes to how do we?

How do we engage in these culture wars? And to give sort of a handbook a handbook on how we should think about our conflicts

Good good good. So very first and we'll just move right through these so just a few insights

Several insights will take from section just section one of your book again is all we're really gonna be focusing on but the very first sentence page 15 the very first sentence you open the chapter up and it says principles that govern every form of conflict a constant in all possible scenarios, so Talk to us a little bit about that.

All right, so The distinction that everybody has to master at the front end is the distinction between principles and methods

Okay, principles are one thing and principles never change methods change according to the the age the warfare is occurring at so if to if to tribes attack one another with rocks and sticks

The rocks and sticks are the method The principles would be things like surprise mobility

Concentration so the tribe that is runs

They have the mobility The mobility is going to be a value in a

Stone Age conflict and a medieval conflict and in a modern conflict mobility matters

Surprise matters the general who is surprised. Is that a disadvantage you want to always want to be the general or the admiral who?

surprises Right, but you might but you might surprise them with a carrier fleet or you might surprise them with bows and arrows so so the

The surprise is the ingredient the principled ingredient that is constant in every form of conflict

Methods are weapons basically, but you use the particular things you so in a cultural conflict a weapon or a tactic might be taking a newspaper or dropping a video

There's nothing Principle about using video. That's just a tool

Right. What what should conservative Christians have done before there were videos?

Right, they should they should mark the principles so people who are trained in Thinking in terms of principles and not methods are going to be at a great advantage

Back to your regularly scheduled program changing something that's probably good enough right there.

Yeah, that's quite enough. Thank you So Doug Wilson responds to the to the spitting in the face by Michael Todd of his in a sermon illustration

What do you what do you how do you respond to that? My response would be twofold one would be crikey and the other would be jeepers

Crikey and jeepers I'll be honest my response the first time

I saw that was holy hell Batman Religiously prudent, but my goodness, but it's better than spitting.

Yeah. Oh My gosh. Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's the kind of stuff that goes on in the in the charismatic circles in a lot of the mega churches, so Unbelievable.

Yeah. Yeah. So let's uh, let's get back to the good stuff here now and Let's Let's get back.

Let's get back on point here. We can just completely get rid of that off my screen Okay, so ten principles of war moving on here in section one the ten principles of war as listed out by you here are objective offensive concentration mobility security surprise cooperation communication economy of force and Pursuit these are the ten principles of war and If we if we're just jumping ahead a little bit to page 18 and 19 in your book the decisive point

I wanted to read just a little bit from that section in this chapter you said this one of the first things a reformers got to get used to is is the experience of being despised and unpopular

Societies do awful things that which need to be reformed because they want to and The reformer is the one beckoning them to a state of affairs that they don't much want

The scripture says you shall not fall in with many to do evil nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit Siding with the many so as to pervert justice

Nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit Exodus 23 2 and 3

ESV Notice what this passage requires of us you state that these are There are times when the doing of evil is popular many want to do evil and they summon you to join them

There are other times when you are being pressured to bear false witness in a lawsuit Siding with the many in order to pervert justice, and if you didn't trip over the next verse you weren't paying attention

It prohibits every form of affirmative action along with all its ugly cousins The next paragraph you state a reformer has to be the kind of man who can stand up to the clamor of the mob

This is the vertebrae Mentality exhibited by Athanasius when he was informed that the world was against him

Well, then he replied let it be known that Athanasius is Contramundum against the world a true reformer gives the

PR department bits so We we live in a day in a time.

I think I and I don't know I don't want to over or over or under characterized

Reform us as reformed folks, right? I think many who who we know to be friends and Calvinistic reform so on and so forth

Many of them don't seem to seem to have a problem standing up and going kind of a get going against the flow

But so where were you coming from when you wrote this did you have any specifics in mind

Sure you It goes back to the first principle of war which is objective so the fundamental question that every pastor every theologian every

Evangelist needs to ask when they get up in the morning is what am I here for? What's What's the mission?

Because if if we don't have a clear -headed view of the mission, which would be the

Great Commission Right. The mission is birth and twofold Aspect to the

Great Commission birth and growth and don't stop until the world is converted

Amen. All right, that's that's the mission So if if you don't have a clear -eyed view of that mission

The mission is going to devolve down to something a lot less significant

Your your mission is going to become to to pay the bills We're gonna keep the lights on Or to keep the staff happy or to make payroll right, yeah, and And so basically the reason you you think your church should exist

Next year is because that it existed all last year Right, the reason the reason we should be here is that we're here our our existence justifies

Itself. Well, that's not that's not how a general a successful general or successful admiral thinks

What are we here for? so So the the

Thing I have in mind is people who have who are undergoing mission drift

Even though they can still sign the Westminster Confession of Faith Right They still but they think oh, there's no mission drift here because we still all of us still believe this stuff

Right, but wait, wait. Are are you trying to persuade the world to believe it?

Also? Right. We're not looking for small victories.

We're looking for total conquest, right? Exactly Right and kind of not having from an evangelical perspective.

I mean if if Honoring Christ honoring Christ's Word isn't our goal.

Then we are wandering stars, right? Yeah I mean what Hebrews 12

We're foreseeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses Let us lay aside every weight in the sin that does so easily beset us and let us run the race with patience

Looking unto Jesus the author and the finisher of our faith I mean not having that that first object that first principle of war objective

I think is is so very very important. It's not starting off with a Random go a random aim.

I mean when we go on vacation, we don't think to ourselves I don't look to my wife and say

April next week. We're gonna go on vacation Where are we going dear? I have no idea.

We're just gonna get in the car and drive that inevitably is going to lead to frustration and and disunity in the household because We're gonna we're not gonna be where we know where we're going.

Therefore. It's gonna cause more problems It just gives us a good point of perspective. I think let me give you two quick examples on this in the

Vietnam War When we lost our sense of objective What was the objective of the war in World War two?

It was to conquer Berlin and it was unconditional surrender on the part of Germany in Japan That was the objective in Vietnam.

We had no court no objective like that, but you need to have some sort of objective that you can point to day to day and so in so the the

The American forces started pointing to body counts Like how many people how many of the enemy were killed today?

How many Americans were killed today? How many of the South Vietnamese were killed today and I remember the newscasts with body counts, but body counts are militarily and strategically irrelevant

Right. It has nothing to do with it. It has nothing to do with anything that you went to war for So that that was a good example of a military mission drift

The same thing is happening to the Russians in Ukraine right now Right, they they don't have a clearly stated

Objective and a bunch of their own troops don't know why they're there. And so the whole thing is devolving into flattening civilian cities, right then so what's

So what's the goal? So people are God has made us Teleological beings meaning that we are focused on the end goal

And if it's if it's not the scriptural end goal, we're gonna come up. We're gonna cook up one of our own.

Yeah exactly so objectives important second point is

Offensive we should look for a way on page 37 in your book You wrote we should look for a way to stop responding to initiatives

To the initiatives of the adversary and start behaving in such a way that they have to figure out how to respond to us right, so Am I correct in understanding here?

We need to stop being so worried about how others or or I'm sorry That that we need to stop worrying about how we're going to respond to the enemy but give the enemy a

Reason to be had those same concerns within themselves Correct. Usually if you're coaching a football team, usually you score your touchdowns when you have the ball

You know occasionally deep the defense scores a touchdown but they do it by getting the ball and turning into the offense

We we need to stop Christians have a bunker mentality generally when it comes to the culture wars

We wake it wake up in the morning and we say to ourselves. What are the progressives gonna do today?

What are the secularists gonna do today? What what fresh hell are they going to unveil?

Today and That mentality although it's it's good that you're on the right side and you don't want the bad guys to win

The that mentality is why they're going to win Yeah, you need to get up in the morning and and ask yourself

What can we do that's gonna flabbergast them? Yeah So on that well that leads us really right into the next principle principle three the the idea of concentration so objective offensive and Concentration obviously, this is not talking about how hard you think but how well directed your thoughts are

Correct Exactly, right. So in in your book on page 38 on the second paragraph in this first section here you said

Concentration will be most effective when applied to a decisive point a place where it is likely that your concentration

Will work and where it will matter a great deal to the enemy if it does work The tip of the spear is the term that you use.

I think that's a That's a analogy that highly goes overlooking misunderstood by many today

Christian non -christian alike. So can you talk to us about the importance of concentration? Yeah concentration would go together like you said with the decisive point and in any given battle or in any given war or Metaphorical war or spiritual war there is a decisive point and the decisive point has two characteristics

The first characteristic is that it is it is of great strategic value So if you take that point it matters greatly to the battle or to the war or to this stage of the war

It matters if you take it. Okay, how strategic is it? The second characteristic is of a decisive point is that it has to be feasible.

Yeah, okay so this feasible means that if you attempt to take it you've got a reasonable expectation of success, right so You a target could be

I'm speaking evangelistically Culturally here a target could be strategic and not feasible like New York City Yeah.

All right, if we took if we took New York City for Jesus, it'd be all over right

The problem is that New York City is not feasible Okay, it's a that's a bigger target

So we could you I'll have to fill you in a little bit on this we could take

Bovell, Idaho for Jesus Bovell is a little town bend in the road a little bit east of us here

Nobody knows quite how many People live in Bovell because in the history in recent living memory

No one has ever returned a census form from Bovell They're kind of doing they're kind of doing their own thing out there

It's not much of a town and we could take Bovell for Jesus In the time it took us to unload our moving vans.

Yeah, okay We but then when all was said and done all we would have is Bovell So So it's feasible but not strategic.

It's and then on the other end, Los Angeles or New York is strategic but not feasible

So wherever you are if you live in New York or if you live in a big city or in a more populous

Play if you live in a place like New York You have to stop thinking in terms of New York City as a whole and ask yourself

What are the decisive points within New York City, right? Okay, so you scale it down till you get to the point where you've got a feasible target that matters

Yeah, okay, and then you want to concentrate your Efforts at that place.

Yes. Okay. Okay So the reason the reason we're here in Moscow Idaho is my dad as I mentioned wrote the book

Principles of War and he did he decided back in the 60s that the decisive points

Culturally in North America were major universities in small towns So the small town made it feasible the university made it important Yes, then he found out that Moscow, Idaho and Pullman Washington are

Two small towns eight miles apart in two different states and with a major university in each one so Washington State University is in Pullman eight miles west of us and University of Idaho is here in Moscow.

So he moved here. So the name of the game was to concentrate fire concentrate your forces concentrate your efforts in a place that actually matters and you get a lot bigger bang for your buck and one of the reasons why all the

Cascading material is coming out of Moscow now is because of that decision that he made back in the 70s to move here

It would he was concentrating his fire and the fire of the people that he would influence in one place

That would be a force multiplier Earlier earlier in the earlier in this section of the book you made that I think it was earlier that you made the the statement

Reforming is the long game. We always have to be playing the long game, right?

Correct, correct All right. So concentration there. We've got that so mobility as far as we're concerned you wrote here in the book mobility is

A state of mind and I want to read this because I love these I love these quips that you make here in speaking of David and Goliath and Saul You said of course the greatest faith here's concerning David's defeat of Goliath The greatest faith here was

David's but it is worth noting that it was an act of faith on Saul's part Also, this was a single combat that put all of Israel's armies at stake and Saul gave his blessing to it

At last it is not often recognized that the five smooth stones represent what later no came to be known as five points of Calvinism Again, I love that.

I love that. I love that that that was an example of a concentrated statement being

Interjected at a decisive point Look so I I refer to myself as the happy Calvinist I know there's some folks who say there's no such thing as happy Calvinist, but I I beg to differ

There are plenty of happy Calvinist Yes, and if you don't mind I'd throw in that saying identifying the five who's smooth stones with the five points of Calvinism is

Also a an appeal to the element of surprise. Yes that so It if you're writing for someone who's not a

Calvinist, for example, that sort of joke can be disarming Yeah Yep, you're up So mobility, it's a state of mind being ready always really to make that those adjustments that are necessary right now on An important point on mobility and we're what we're doing here is an example of it

Right. I don't even know. I don't even remember where you are We're on we're on mobility.

Actually, you know where you are in Knoxville, Tennessee You're in Tennessee.

Yeah alright, so The the fact that we live in a generation where someone could be having a video conference like this

With someone across the continent and then say oh, yeah, where are you by the way?

Are you in Brazil? Um, that's an example of mobility, yeah, right so that means that words and clips and content can travel much faster than it used to be able to now what you what you want to be you want to couple this with the previous thing we talked about concentration because The internet basically

Enables us to move our our inanity or our ignorance around the world at high rates of speed, right?

So it's possible for me to Instagram my lunch Take a picture of it

Instagram it and show the people in New Zealand what I had for lunch And that's that's quick and they may see it within seconds and it also doesn't matter

Right, right. I'm just I'm just I'm using up ones and zeros, but if preachers of the gospel if people who are committed to Filling Jerusalem with your doctrine as the complaint was against the early church these tools the tools that the internet has given us are massively potent and important as we can see from the attempts of Google and Facebook and Twitter to censor them they want this horse has gotten away from them and they want to get a bit and bridle on it and So they can control so they can control

Manipulate because they don't want renegade Calvinists talking online and and then

Depositing that content in New Zealand in Australia in Brazil so what we're doing here has

Extraordinary mobility. So what we want to do is then learn how to target it learn learn how to Apply these things in a concentrated way

Where the people who would most benefit by getting this content are informed of it.

That's right That's right. And that's the aim and the goal of the podcast itself the here.

I stand theology podcast we want to inform and educate our audience there

Alright, so next point Would be security, right?

Or yeah, yeah security. So on page 46 and the last two paragraphs you write and so we come to security security cannot be a standalone principle and you

Explained expound on this very clearly guarding oneself against the possibility of defeat is important But prudent security is not the same thing as a risk -free

Warfare a war in which there is no possibility of things going wrong is not really a war

It's like I'm like, you know, it's like playing Play in a three -year playing basketball with a three -year -old

There's not there's not a possibility really much of a possibility of you're losing so you can't really call it a sport the

Sun Tzu put it the good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat and then waited for an

Opportunity of defeating the enemy. So rather than reading that next paragraph, I think that's that's a good place to stop on that there.

So Talk to us a little bit about the importance of security and principled security really and practical

Yes security means that you work with people that you can trust That doesn't that doesn't mean that the trust is absolute

Judas betrayed the Lord and Demas deserted Paul. So you but but qualifications for leadership matter

You you might have someone in your leadership team. You might have someone in your group that flakes and and Ears off and does something but what you shouldn't have and that's that's just you're no better than the

Lord You're no better than the Apostle Paul, but what you shouldn't Have is someone in your entourage or your group who flakes and you were worried about them from the moment you hired them

So And then finally it happens that would be a violation of security

Right the You can't guard absolutely against this is a fallen world

You can't guard absolutely against someone flaking on you But you you should be able you you should not have security risks in your group

Simply because you lack the courage to ask pointed questions Yes, I'd agree a hundred and ten percent there 110 percent

Moving forward the element of surprise very important you touched on this as well

And I'm actually again another Chestertonian Quote in reference here on page 52 you wrote to the extent that they have a character caricature of a speaking

Calvinist We should do whatever we can to dismantle that caricature all at once Surprise for example

They want to write off all social conservatives as throwback Puritans with crabbed pinched faces worrying desperately

About somewhere somebody calling that number on the bathroom wall Having a good time

The answer is to cultivate a sunny Calvinism a Chestertonian Calvinism Chesterton himself would of course be annoyed at my appropriation of his great name to serve as an adjective to my soteriology

But as you said, we all have our crosses to bear and I would add what's he going to do about it?

He's dead So so that the the element of surprise how important is that when it comes to the principles of war

I Think it's very very important. So And I would say there's two strong elements of surprise that we should be looking to do one would be the the tactics the the, you know, let's say you have a concert or a conference or you you you want to think about things like having it in an odd place or Or having it in a way that makes everybody go.

Whoa. What what are they doing? Or what are they? You know, what are they up to what's that for? So it's just the things you do but I'd say the biggest element of surprise is

The way you are all right, so one of the things that is So I have a grandson who's in at Columbia in New York City and one of the things that he's interacting with a lot of liberals and One of the things that's striking to him is how many of the liberals and the progressives have bought in completely to the propaganda the incessant propaganda about white supremacists and the way the red states are and that sort of thing and he's been in conversations with people who are convinced that if they if they

Went to a small town in flyover country. They would be taking their life in their hands

Yeah, so they think that they actually think that the the rhetoric that has gotten everybody up up to this fever pitch is

Is it is a true threat to them? Now? Here's the thing if someone like that come visits your church or visits your town or Let's say a secular journalist who comes to interview you and You are pleasant

You you listen to them you don't stand on your chair and yell at them

That you you're gonna basically your interaction with them is going to break all the paradigms

Right all the stories that they've heard One time many years ago my wife used to sell fabric out of her house as a sort of a side gig and At the time

I was I was a newspaper columnist Did a weekly conservative column for our local paper and a lady that Nancy didn't know came to buy some fabric and they were chatting and as time went on it slowly began to dawn on this woman who

Nancy was and She finally said you're you're not married to Doug Wilson.

Are you and Nancy said? Nancy said well, yeah. Yes, I am and the lady said but you're so nice But You're so nice That kind of thing really is disarming.

Yeah, okay. It's surprise And then ultimately you want to surprise with the gospel as people think that conservative

Christians are Harbinger our messengers of hard condemnation

The that we want to build the handmaid's tale that we want to want to do horrific awful things we want reformed ayatollahs with weird beards chopping off hand chopping off people's hands and and When when they hear you preach and you're preaching a message of free grace and forgiveness for everyone

Purchased for you on the cross that doesn't fit in any of their compartments Yeah, right and it's a surprise you're right

Along those lines I think about I can't remember which I think it was it may have been

Whitfield That said it that we ought to preach the gospel promiscuously and that's exactly right freely to all

Right freely to all. All right. So the element of surprise there you you illustrated that one more.

I Again I love this John Montague the Earl of Sandwich was up against John Wilkes a reformist politician

Montague looked at Wilkes in exasperation and said upon my soul Wilkes I don't know whether you'll die upon the gallows or syphilis

The comeback of the age was that will depend my lord on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress

That that put him on his heels. No doubt So the the next principle moving right along here and we'll we'll we'll just go just a few more minutes here

Doug All right, the principle of cooperation How important that is obviously co -op that's kind of one of those

You know plain Plain principle set forth cooperation involves the doing involves the doing it is one of the most

Difficult principles to observe. It's it's highly clear and yet it is one of the most

Challenging to achieve Yeah, so I would say the thing

I would push for here is what I would call an evangelical ecumenism

So there are all kinds in the Baskins and Robbins of Evangelical Christianity there are all kinds of flavors and and it's not just a matter of Pick the flavor that suits you because it the

Bible does teach one thing and not another So I'm not a charismatic and I'm not an

Armenian and I'm not a dispensation list and I'm you know So there and I think that the people who embrace those theologies are in error, but My question is is

God in fellowship with them. Is that person? Is that person walking with God if that person is walking with God mistakes and all

Just as I walk with God mistakes and all I should be willing to cooperate as far as it's possible

With anyone that I believe the Lord is in fellowship with Okay, now that doesn't mean that I hide or pretend to agree where I don't

Right, I don't tell lies in order to cooperate But but I can have a cooperative disposition and say look

God bless you guys This is you know a number of years ago. I had a real good lesson in this a good example of this

I should say We had one of our periodic Controversies here locally

And I was accused of Racism and wanting to bring back back bring back slavery and a bunch of a bunch of false charges, right so and there were people who had known me for years and Who knew that I wasn't a racist who were and who were more who were closer to me?

theologically than Others who backed away Okay, okay, they backed away and then in the middle of this, you know friends sort of pulling their skirts away

In the middle of that. I got a phone call from a charismatic minister who? Invited me to a charismatic ministers luncheon, which this was an odd Yeah, this was an odd event right, and so I went and and they said basically, oh

Slavery shmavery, you know This is all about Jesus. You know, this is all about Jesus.

So they prayed for me You know, they they sort of they gathered in and I think it's because charismatics

Whatever errors they have are used to being Look down on They're used to being sort of the outliers and The Evangelicals who backed away from me wanted to be didn't want to be in that position and So I want to cooperate these people were clearly

People who loved the Lord and were prepared to love a Calvinist from another state And who made it made a point of doing that?

That is the kind of cooperation. I think the Lord blesses when you're at war. You don't want your army fighting with your

Navy That's right you want your army and Navy and Air Force all to be dealing with the

Larger issues. So the the things that the progressive left Well, the things that the progressive leftists have in store for us are the sort of things that make me want to set

Theological debates to the side for the present not that they're unimportant But the they're less important than the

Klingon Klingon invasion that we're dealing with I agree cooperation about there there's more for us as Christians to cooperate and to agree upon than there is to disagree to to a large

Remember what the Lord taught about what the Lord taught about Straining out mint mint

Straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel and tithing mint dill in common so if I meet a charismatic brother at a pro -life

March And I don't agree with him on tongues or prophecy at all, but we agree on let's not chop up the babies

Right. Okay We agree on that. Well, you know god bless you man.

Let's let's deal with that. Let's deal with that first Exactly exactly

So cooperation is important because without cooperation Those the previous principles really they they really begin to build and come to a head here

Next is communication the importance of communicating on page 62 you wrote when you're communicating with a large number of people

It's important not to say too much The point is to communicate what needs to be done and to moat everyone to do it

The point is not to explain everything in excruciating detail That being said let's move on to the next point because that was that was that was it that was clear the next the next

Principle would be number nine. That is economy of force. So how we use our force right economy of force combines in an artistic way objective offensive security surprise mobility concentration and Cooperation economy of force is the pursuit of efficiency in war

So what would be the converse to efficiency in war? being scattered disorganized

Flailing so Basically what the Russians are doing in Ukraine right now.

Yep Do this no wait do that Do the other thing that didn't work now what?

That so basically economy of force is the is probably the one of the more obvious principles that they are neglecting

Right. And so what we want to do is we you want to have a smooth decision making

Polity in your church. Let's say your church is your unit, right?

You don't want to have cultivated a democratic ethos this goes back to the communication point where you say okay, well what we're going to do folks is this we're going to the elders have decided that we're going to do this and then have 25 % of your people say why how come?

We didn't get Basically you have to have

Embedded trust in Between the leadership and the people. Yes, so that when a decision has to be made and you have to turn on a dime

The decision can be make made quickly and this goes back to mobility right, so we we recently had a

Situation that was I was just so pleased with our elders Where a small church building downtown,

Moscow came up for sale and we were able to make that decision Turning it around inside a week and it was a good

It was a good example of communication within the elder board Economy of force is sort of an elegant placement of what this this church is going to matter and and mobility we were able to do it quickly and Surprised when everyone when it's revealed to the town.

Hey, look who's there? It almost not even not even words you just wave as people drive by All right, and last of all the 10th principle of war is pursuit

Failure to pursue frequently reveals that the objective in the campaign was not victory

But rather some version which you talked about at the very beginning here today, but rather some version of the upper hand

We don't want the upper hand. We want conquest, right and the reason after the

Battle of Gettysburg this this Civil War went on for two more years because pursuit was not

Because the Union forces did not pursue We won the battle isn't that enough well, no

No, so and that's what that's what Gideon Does when when he when he wins his great victory they they pursue and they pursue ardently

It's it's a it's a very important principle principle of war and that means you you don't want to settle for Fighting off the bad guys

Successfully, so we we withstood their assault That's not enough

What you wanted what you want to do is counter -attack And again, we see this right in front of us with Ukraine It shouldn't be enough for the

Ukrainians to fight the Russians to a standstill What they need to do is fight them to a standstill then take the offensive which is another principle of war

And push them back, right, right. I agree with their tail

So lastly here sir, and we're gonna cut off here in a minute again I want to tell you

I appreciate your time But I would like to ask one more question and really this is for for me struggling

I guess to for articulate purposes of articulation in my life to to my

Circle of friends to to our church. I pastor here at Ramada Baptist Church in Knoxville, but that The for years

I have struggled with articulating the difference if you might help me here articulating the difference between It being postman.

We're post millennial is obviously but articulating the difference between postmillennialism and Kingdom now theology or dominion ism.

How what is the simplest most direct way to articulate that difference because I Think from from folks look standing on the outside looking in they kind of it can really kind of blur together

Yeah, and I'd like to make draw a clear distinction and how can we do that, right? So before I give this

Distinction I fully recognize that you might have something of a Venn diagram There might be some overlap.

So So there might be some people Who would call themselves in the

Dominion camp who agree with what I'm about to say? Yeah, right so I'll recognize the border might be somewhat porous, but here's the this is the distinction that I would make

I believe that Demand sort of Kingdom now Dominion stuff and and not having read a pile on this strikes me as sort of a global version of name it claim it a global version of health and wealth

So what we need to do is have a really exciting camp meeting Revival here and and sort of claim our city for Jesus Now I think we should be thinking that we want to win our city for Jesus Christ and We should believe that it's inevitable that it's going to happen but the living water that flows out of Ezekiel's temple is just a wet spot on the pavement right outside the door and Then it's half an inch deep and then it's ankle deep and then it's knee deep and then it finally it becomes a

River that you can't swim across Okay, so the Jesus teaches us that the kingdom is like a mustard seed it grows to a huge plant and Daniel it's a

It's the rock that's cut out from without hands and grows to become a mountain to fill the earth

It's like leaven that's dropped in the loaf that works gradually slowly through the loaf.

So My goal here in Moscow is to have this town be a Christian town

Yeah, I want Moscow to be as full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea

But I also believe that it might be 300 years before that happens Right.

So I want to behave in such a way where I can see progress and I can see that we're making headway

I can see that we're trusting the Lord for these things. This is the mission That's the objective

But I don't want to pretend that I attained the objective Simply because I had an exciting revival meeting.

I Don't want our our cultural evangelism to be like a charismatic healing service

Where you pretend to be healed because you know, you ought to be Right, and that would be stopping short.

That would be stopping short of Conquest right? Yeah, so so I just wanted to ask that I appreciate your insight on that as well

Again, Doug. Thank you. Pastor Douglas Wilson for being on the episode on the podcast here with us once again

Don't forget folks This episode won't be airing till tomorrow. So it'll be after your debate so pedo pedo communion debate

James White Doug Wilson tomorrow at 12 3 p .m

Pacific Standard Time and I'm assuming you all will be recording that correct and posting it up later.

Yeah, everybody. I love that That'll be awesome. All right. So again, thank you sir so much for your ministry for your work for your character

Just for who you are. You've been a great encouragement to me thus far and I'm sure you will continue to be

Folks if you haven't yet gone to find Doug where can folks find you on Twitter?

At Douglas wills is my handle but the best place to find every best clearing house is my blog

Doug wills .com Doug wills .com Go ahead blog and may blog and I'm going to be in Knoxville in a few months in October Yeah, right right the fight left feast thing, yeah, yes, and I'm I said

I've I've communicated with Gabe Tentatively, we've got a time. We're gonna get together with them.

So maybe you can drop by we can meet in person. That'd be awesome Thank you again, sir, if I can ever be of assistance to you you let me know hope you'll have a great day