May 31, 2022 Show with E. Calvin Beisner on “An Unlikely Source Throws Cold Water on Climate Change Catastrophism”

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this last day of May, May 31st, 2022, which is a

Tuesday. And I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest,

Dr. E. Calvin Beisner. He is founder and national spokesman for the

Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation. And we're going to be addressing

An Unlikely Source Throws Cold Water on Climate Change Catastrophism.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Cal Beisner. Well, thank you very, very much,

Chris. The privilege is mine. It is an honor to be with you. Really appreciate the work that you do, getting the gospel out and getting out biblical worldview and theology and ethics.

I've admired your work for a long time. It's great to be with you here. Yeah, and I find that a great honor.

And I have also mutually had high regards for you for many years, going all the way back to the 1980s as a young Christian watching the

John Ankerberg show. And I think that was my first exposure to you and have admired you ever since.

Well, yeah, that goes way back. I believe that that show was recorded in 1984 and became one of the most popular shows that John Ankerberg ever did.

It's been repeated many times. And I still, to this day, occasionally,

I'd say probably about once every month, month and a half or so, I'll hear from somebody who will write to me through Facebook or by email saying,

I just saw the debate that you and Dr. Walter Martin did with the two leaders of the

United Pentecostal Church on John Ankerberg's show. And I want you to know that the

Lord used that to deliver me out of the anti -Trinitarian cult of the

United Pentecostal Church. And that is just so, so exciting for me to hear from people like that.

I think the Lord has really used that show. And of course, it's not all me. Walter Martin was by far and away the senior partner there in doing that.

And he was a great, great guy. And by the way, just because my memory is not quite clear on that, but was

Robert Sabin one of the United Pentecostal debaters? Yes, because years after that,

I also orchestrated a debate with Robert Sabin and Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on the Trinity. Right, yeah. And it was interesting how

Mr. Sabin used the vast majority of his time not to defend the

Trinity biblically or theologically, but to memorialize Miguel Servito and to pull at the heartstrings of the listeners in the audience, the observers, that it was such a horrible, cruel thing that Calvinists did to this anti -Trinitarian.

So it was interesting. Yeah, well, if the fact that somebody's been martyred is proof that what he taught is true, well, there have been a whole lot more

Trinitarians martyred than anti -Trinitarians. So I guess that proves the

Trinity's true? That's just not the way to argue. You need to bring your case out of the scriptures themselves.

That's what I did in my book, God in Three Persons, that came out from Tyndale House back in 1984 and is still in print and reprint from Woodson's dock over in Oregon.

Well, tell our listeners who did not hear you on the previous interviews that you've had on this broadcast, tell them about the

Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation. Yeah, well, the really short way to put it is we're trying to save the planet from the people who are trying to save the planet.

What a great slogan! I think that's a new one because I don't recall hearing that the last time.

No, I don't think I used that the last time we talked. But actually, my wife came up with that, oh, probably eight or nine years ago, something like that, and we didn't really start using it much until the last few years.

But I think that communicates really pretty well. So much of the environmentalist movement is rooted in an anti -biblical worldview and uses really poor science and economics, and therefore its policies tend not to do much good at all in terms of protecting the natural environment, but do a lot of harm to our economies, and consequently to the poor, who, of course, need productive economies to provide them food, clothing, shelter, and all the other things that enable human beings to live well on this planet where, frankly, nature is not a very friendly place.

I mean, just imagine for a minute that you're dumped in the

Brazilian rainforest, or the Sahara Desert, or the Arctic area, or, frankly, anywhere else in the world, with no clothing, no shelter, no tools whatsoever, and no surrounding economy, no other people around with an advanced economy.

And imagine what it would be like to try to survive. That explains why from thousands of years ago until just about 200 years ago, average life expectancy at birth for human beings was about 27 or 28 years.

And it's because nature is not a very nurturing place, it's a very dangerous place, though it has tremendous potential if we human beings use our

God -given mandate to be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth and subdue it and have dominion over it, we can transform it.

It has great potential for transformation under human care. And so that's what we do.

Anyway, the Cornwall Alliance is a network of just under 70 different evangelical

Christian scholars. About a third of them are natural scientists, including, by the way, in terms of today's interview topic, climate change.

We have some of the world's top climate scientists among our scholars. About a third are economists and policy wonks, and then about a third are theologians, philosophers, ethicists, and ministry leaders.

And we work together to educate the public and policymakers on biblical Earth stewardship, economic development for the poor around the world, and the gospel of Jesus Christ, together with the biblical worldview, theology, and ethics that come with it.

And we do all of this to encourage people to be able to fulfill the two great commandments, to love

God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. So that's kind of the gist of it.

We have a website, CornwallAlliance .org, where people can read a whole lot of, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of articles and a number of major papers that we've published.

We also have a podcast called Created to Rain, and that's on Spotify and various other podcast platforms.

Any podcast management app that you use can lead you to that. Do distinguish it from an earlier program once called

Created to Rain. There were three episodes back in 2019, but that has not gone on.

Ours is clearly seen by our cover art, the Holy Spirit descending as a dove on Adam and Eve.

So Created to Rain is our podcast. In it, Dr. David LeGates, who is a retired climatologist, just retired from the

University of Delaware, and I talk about a variety of different things related to biblical earth stewardship and so on.

We also have a Facebook page, Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, and a

YouTube channel, Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, where people can see many videos that we've produced through the years and just learn a whole lot.

And that website, once again, is Cornwall Alliance. That's C -O -R -N -W -A -L -L -Alliance .org,

CornwallAlliance .org. And God willing, I will be repeating that later on in the program.

Basically, many who are involved in a left -wing approach to saving the planet really are worshipping nature, even though most of them, the vast majority, would never claim that or spell it out in that way.

But they are putting the needs of trees and animals and fish and birds far above the needs of their fellow humans.

And ironically, the left considers itself champions of caring for the poor and wanting the poor to be among our highest priorities, and yet they are really destroying the livelihoods of many of these poor folks throughout the world through their so -called efforts.

Am I not right? Yes, you are. You know, here's sort of a basic way to distinguish the two different frameworks or worldviews by which people approach this.

Most of the environmental movement approaches the issue with the fundamental picture of nature as a very fragile, delicate, but nurturing place, where if human beings would just stop messing it up, we'd have everything that we need and everybody would be happy and life would be healthy and long and wonderful.

And therefore, our chief end ought to be to minimize the impact we make on nature.

So the priority for that perspective is minimize our impact on nature, which means reduce the amount of resources that we use and try to restrict as much as possible anything that we do that changes the natural order.

In contrast to that, I think a biblical worldview rooted in Genesis 1 will tell us that nature, far from being a terribly delicate place, is actually pretty robust and resilient and self -correcting, but it's also not a very nurturing place.

One of my mentors, the late Dr. Julian Simon, who was a professor of economics and business, but also one of the world's leading scholars on demography, especially the statistics of demography, demography being the study of population and how it relates to the world around it and so on.

I think Julian Simon calculated that hunting and gathering, the way people did before even the rudiments of agriculture got going, hunting and gathering could sustain, at most, about one or two people per square mile in the very best of habitats and would do that in a manner that their health was so poor that typically they would die by the time they reached age, say, 25 to 30.

So nature is not a delicate, nurturing place. It's a very powerful, full of potential place, but dangerous place.

And so we are called by God in Genesis 128 to subdue and rule it so that we actually improve it.

Since we're made in his image, our ruling, our dominion over nature should reflect

God's own activity. And where we learn about that first is in the first 26 verses, 25 verses of Genesis 1, that God starts with nothing and he gets everything, right?

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He starts with nothing, he gets everything. He brings light out of darkness.

Light, of course, in Scripture, we quickly begin to see, represents truth and understanding and knowledge and so on.

And then he brings order out of chaos and greater order out of lesser order.

He brings life out of non -life and a great variety of life. And he tells each kind of life to multiply and fill its own niche in the world.

So this is kind of the pattern that we get from God himself. So our dominion should reflect his.

So we at the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation kind of summarize it this way.

A godly dominion looks like men and women made in God's image, working together in love to enhance the fruitfulness and the beauty and the safety of the earth for the glory of God and the benefit of our neighbors so that we're addressing those two great commandments to love

God and to love neighbor. And what this means is that instead of trying to minimize our impact on nature, it's not that we try to maximize it, it is instead that we try to optimize it.

We try to do it and we try to affect nature in ways that make it more and more conducive to human thriving because human thriving really is the priority of our approach to this.

Well, we are discussing today the unlikely source, or an unlikely source, throws cold water on climate change catastrophism.

Now, before we even get to revealing that unlikely source, if you could summarize a definition of what you would view as being climate change catastrophism.

Okay. Well, let's see. It's what you see in the mainstream media and from most politicians pretty much every day all over the place.

It is the notion that human activity, especially the use of fossil fuels for energy, is causing increase in global average temperature that will bring about catastrophic results.

Devastating heat waves, more and stronger severe weather events like hurricanes, droughts, floods, thunderstorms, tornadoes, wildfires, things of that sort.

And very rapid sea level rise that will inundate areas with vast populations, things of this sort.

You know, it's the notion that climate change is an existential threat, which is something that our president,

President Biden, called it not long ago. Of course, right behind white supremacy.

Yeah, right. You have, for instance, AOC, Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez, saying back a few years ago, we have just 12 years to save the planet, and if we don't, we all die.

That's climate change catastrophism. It doesn't always go that far, but the whole notion that our impact on global climate is overwhelmingly negative, that it's going to bring about far more harm than benefit, is what

I would call climate catastrophism. And that's very widespread in the media, it's widespread in politics, it dominates the environmentalist movement.

And in contrast with that, I embrace what I call climate realism. And that's the understanding that human activity, including burning fossil fuels and thus putting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, does indeed make the lower atmosphere warmer than it otherwise would be.

Excuse me. But this is not catastrophic. The amount of warming is relatively moderate, mild.

The benefits of it probably outweigh the risks of it. But meanwhile, the benefits of all the energy we get from using fossil fuels far outweigh any harms that come from the climate change.

And one way to understand this is actually to read, as very, very few people do, actually read the scientific reports that come out from the

United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

About every five or six years they send out a new assessment report. Now, the vast majority of people never read those scientific assessments.

The vast majority of policymakers never read them. They might read the summary for policymakers that comes out each time that the

UN does one of these things. But the summary for policymakers typically doesn't really very well represent what's in the scientific reports.

If you actually read the scientific reports, what they tell you is that, yeah, global average temperature has risen by probably about a degree, maybe 1 .2

degrees Celsius since about 1850. And by the time we finish doubling the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere from what it was around, say, 1750 before the

Industrial Revolution, late this century, we should expect about another degree to maybe a degree and a half

Celsius of increase in global average temperature. But here's a very important thing.

These reports also tell us that because of the physics of how greenhouse gas -driven warming happens, it happens primarily toward the poles, the north and south poles of the globe.

It happens primarily in the winter, and it happens primarily at night.

What that means is that the increase in global average temperature comes not from an increase in high temperatures in the summer, in the daytime, and in the lower latitudes around the equator and so on.

It happens because of an increase in cold temperatures toward the poles in the winter at night.

Now, heatwaves kill some people, but cold snaps kill 20 times as many people per day as do heatwaves.

So the result of this kind of warming is a wonderful reduction in cold snaps without a significant increase in heatwaves.

And frankly, poverty is a far greater risk than anything related to climate.

If you have income even equivalent to, say, the bottom 10 % of Americans, you can thrive in any climate from the

Arctic Circle to the Brazilian rainforest to the Sahara Desert. If you're living on the equivalent of, say, about $1 a day or $1 .50

a day, you can't thrive in the best tropical paradise. And the aim to try to reduce our contribution to global warming by reducing our use of fossil fuels in order to reduce our emissions of CO2 is a prescription for trapping billions of people in poverty because abundant, affordable, reliable energy is absolutely indispensable to lifting and keeping whole societies out of poverty.

And fossil fuels, along with nuclear, are the best sources we have for that abundant, affordable, reliable energy.

They provide roughly 85 % of all the energy used in the world right now. And by comparison, wind and solar, after 50 -some years of spending billions and billions of dollars subsidizing them, wind and solar provide under 3 % of all the energy that we use in the world, and yet we're being told that we need to substitute those for fossil fuels.

Well, we're going to... A bit of a realistic approach. Right. We're going to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Cal Beisner, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say publicly identifying yourself as to what your position is on this subject might cause a rift in your marriage or something because your spouse has a radically different view than you, or something like that.

Perhaps you're even in a liberal or leftist church that has strong positions on the left -leaning side related to climate change.

Whatever the case is that would compel you to remain anonymous, we will grant that request.

But please, if it's just a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Dr.

E. Calvin Beisner of the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation right after these messages.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is

Dr. E. Calvin Beisner, founder and national spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the

Stewardship of Creation. We are addressing an unlikely source throws cold water on climate change catastrophism and if you have a question, send it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Before we go in to the unlikely source that threw the cold water isn't it interesting,

Dr. Beisner, that the left gradually changes its rhetoric and phraseology to be innocuous sounding and therefore if you disagree with their battle cry or slogan you sound like a moron.

Like for instance, they will say Cal Beisner doesn't believe in climate change or if you're opposed to the murder of unborn children in the womb they will say

Cal Beisner doesn't believe in protecting women's health care rights.

You know, things like that. Isn't that interesting how they can never stand on what they actually believe they have to mask the agenda with a flowery and innocuous statement that everyone who has any decency within their heart would agree with just on the very basis of the sound of the phraseology.

Yeah, that's certainly true and what you're describing is basically the use of caricature or what logicians call the informal fallacy of straw man.

You erect a caricature of the position against which you're arguing and you argue against that caricature instead of against the real position and then having blasted your caricature to pieces you declare yourself the winner and you leave the debate stage before your opponent has an opportunity to represent himself accurately.

That's kind of the way it goes. But the reality is that I, frankly, I know personally the vast majority of scientists who have spoken out published against climate catastrophism and not a single one of them would be accurately described as somebody who denies climate change.

The truth is climate has changed throughout the entire history of the planet.

It's going to continue to change as long as the planet is around. But the question is how much is human activity influencing climate change?

What are the consequences of that in terms of comparing benefits and costs?

And what would be the benefits and costs of attempting to reduce our influence on climate?

That's where the real debate lies and frankly on those questions you have scientists all over the map.

The vast majority even of scientists who are contributors to the

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change for the UN would not fall in the category that I would describe as catastrophists who describe climate change as an existential threat to humanity.

You can go through all of the IPCC's reports and never find the words existential threat

When the IPCC released its latest report back in early

February I think it was UN Secretary General Guterres said that this was code red for humanity.

But in fact you don't find any language like that either in the actual scientific assessment report or in the summary for policy makers that was put together about it.

That's Guterres' opinion. It is certainly not the opinion of the scientists who put these things together.

So I describe myself as a climate realist. Climate changes, it's always changed, it always will change.

Human activity contributes to that change in a variety of different ways. Benefits probably outweigh the risks even of the climate change itself.

But certainly the benefits of energy that we get from fossil fuels that release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, those benefits far outweigh any risks related to climate.

In fact, our use of fossil fuels gives us the energy that we need to master climate problems.

You can look, for example, at the annual deaths, human deaths, from extreme weather events running back to the beginning of the 20th century and see what's happened with them over the last 120 years.

The answer is they've fallen by more than 98 % at the very same time that human population has roughly tripled.

So what that means is that we are better and better at protecting us from climate catastrophes, from severe weather events, and we are better at protecting ourselves from those things because of the abundant, affordable, reliable energy that we get from fossil fuels.

So the people who want us to quit using fossil fuels in order to stop climate change or to limit climate change or anything like that, they are the real catastrophists, and they are the deniers of human ability to protect ourselves from the troubles that come with a changing climate.

And their policies just spell doom for the poor around the world, trapping the roughly 3 billion people in the world right now who do not have adequate supplies of energy, especially in the form of electricity, trapping them in poverty long term, and pushing another billion or so people back into poverty, a couple of billion people back into poverty, who are just borderline above it.

If we care about our neighbors, we should not be thinking that way.

Amen. And now I want you all to imagine a drumroll in your minds.

I don't have the sound effect immediately at my fingertips, but who is the unlikely source that threw cold water on climate change catastrophism?

Well, it's the New York Times Magazine, which of course is published by the New York Times Company.

And if any of your listeners have been following the news about climate change over the last 20 years or so, they know that the

New York Times is one of the most alarmist sources on the topic.

And yet, just recently, back in April, April 22,

New York Times Magazine published an article called, This Eminent Scientist Says Climate Alarmists Need to Get Real.

And it's really delightful to read for climate realists.

It would be pretty painful for climate catastrophists. Because in it, the author of that article, reporter

David Marchese, squirms to escape the implications of everything that this eminent scientist he interviews says about climate change.

That eminent scientist is Dr. Vaclav Smil, S -M -I -L.

Dr. Vaclav Smil is the author of more than 40 books about energy.

He's probably the world's leading expert on energy, on where it comes from, how we access it, how we refine it, how we deliver it, what it costs, what are the engineering processes involved, all of those different things.

Smil is just simply one of the greatest thinkers in this field ever.

And David Marchese contacted him and got him to agree to be interviewed.

And what Marchese was trying desperately to do was to get Smil to agree that climate change is a looming catastrophe, and we simply absolutely have to do something now drastic to avert it by replacing fossil fuel energy with wind, solar, and other so -called renewable sources.

But Vaclav Smil knows what he's talking about, so he won't take the bait. He says, and I'm going to sort of summarize here, such emissions cuts are unrealistic.

They don't take into account the vast scale of the energy needed to serve even the most basic needs of the world's roughly 8 billion people.

Food, clothing, shelter, transportation, protection from cold and heat, and all the industry that makes those things.

They don't consider what's necessary to produce and distribute all that energy. And Smil later explains, people have to realize,

I'm quoting here Smil, people have to realize that this problem is unprecedented because of the numbers, billions of everything, and the pressure of acting rapidly as we never acted before.

This doesn't make it hopeless, he says, but it makes it excruciatingly more difficult.

That's kind of an introduction to the article, and it's really a fun thing to read, because the poor reporter tries over and over again to get

Smil to say something that will support his view, and he just won't. And is there anything about Smil's background where a leftist could charge he is using a presupposition for a right -leaning view that he may be secretly holding to?

Oh, definitely not. In fact, if anything, he might be considered to be sort of toward the left.

Smil is Distinguished Professor Emeritus in the Faculty of Environment at the

University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. His research interests go across energy, environment, food, population, economics, historical and public policy studies.

He's been applying these research interests to his work for the environmental affairs of China and in Canada as well.

He was born back during World War II in Husen at the time, in the

German protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, which is now in the Czech Republic.

He grew up in the East European, fairly socialist situation, and he simply has never been known as a conservative activist or anything of that sort.

He just simply knows the physics, the engineering, the economics of energy production and supply, and he knows that what the climate alarmists are demanding is simply physically impossible.

Wow. We have Robert in White Plains, New York, who says,

I find it fascinating that occasionally those on the left will become the allies of those on the right on certain areas, such as we see feminists on the same side as the right many times when the issue of transgenderism is coming to the forefront in the media, as we see male athletes defeating female athletes because the male athletes have been permitted into competition with the females just because they claim in their minds that they believe to be female.

Well, one of the areas where this has occurred, if my memory serves me right, is the founder of PETA.

Did not the founder of PETA resign over these very matters involving climate change fraud?

You know, Chris, I'm going to have to say I don't remember.

I do not remember that. I've probably seen it sometime or other, but I deal with so much stuff in this field that that one has slipped away from me.

I do remember that the founder of PETA, People for the

Ethical Treatment of Animals, once responded to those who were uptight about abortion and saying, you know, we shouldn't be aborting human beings like this.

And being alarmed by the fact that back at the time that about a million babies were being aborted every year in America, her response was, yeah, but every year we kill 10 billion broiler chickens.

Oh, man. That was Ingrid Newkirk, Ingrid Newkirk, the founder of PETA.

And that showed the extent to which she just reduced human beings to the same level as animals, particularly broiler chickens, and didn't put a priority on human well -being.

Well, the priority for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation is on human well -being.

And we recognize that abundant, affordable, reliable energy, especially in terms of vast scales, is indispensable to lifting and keeping whole societies out of poverty.

So, I mean, if you're aware of precisely where Newkirk, you know, criticized the climate alarmists, you can fill me in on that, but I don't happen to remember that one.

Yeah, I'll have to look that up after the show, or if any of our listeners might know of that. I have a fuzzy memory of seeing that individual interviewed on Fox News backing up the claim of our listener,

Robert, in the White Plains. Thanks for listening, Robert. We have to go to our midway break now.

The midway break is longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires a longer break in the middle of our show so they can air their public service announcements and other things that localize the show geographically to Lake City, Florida.

So, please, keep that in mind, be patient with us as we take this longer break, and also use this time to send in questions to our guest.

That's Chris Orensen at gmail .com. Chris Orensen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr.

Cal Beisner right after these messages. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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chrisorenson at gmail .com We have, let's see,

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island wants to know how exactly are those who are involved in promoting climate change catastrophism taking away employment from the poor people of the world, as was claimed earlier in this broadcast?

Well, I didn't say that we're taking away employment from the poor, but because energy is the capacity to do work, and the more energy you have, the more work can be done.

When you reduce the amount of energy to which people have access, you reduce the amount of work that they can get done, regardless of how many hours they're employed.

That is, consider for a moment what it would mean attempting to chop down a tree with an axe, in which all of the energy involved is your bodily energy, versus cutting down the same tree with a chainsaw.

You'll go through it in a matter of, well, say it's about a, say it's got a 10 -inch diameter trunk.

You'll go through that with a typical chainsaw in maybe a minute, or something like that.

But if you're using an axe, it's going to take you 15, 20 minutes more, depending on what kind of wood it is.

And so energy is what makes our labor, makes our efforts more productive.

What that means is that regardless whether the poor are employed or not employed, the more energy they can use in their employment, the more product they're going to get from their efforts.

So, just to put it simply again, abundant, affordable, reliable energy is absolutely indispensable to lifting and keeping whole societies out of poverty.

Now, right now, about 2 billion people around the world are what my friend

Alex Epstein, the author of the brand new book Fossil Future, why global human flourishing requires more oil, coal, and natural gas, not less.

Alex calls roughly 2 billion people around the world unempowered. That is because they have no access to energy in the form of either electricity or fuels for vehicles and so on.

Their energy comes basically from their muscle, whether it's their stock animals or their own bodies.

Those people live in extreme poverty. They have, they suffer a great deal of illness because of their undernourishment, their malnourishment.

They lack adequate clothing and shelter and medical care and all sorts of things like that precisely because they are unempowered.

2 billion people around the world are barely empowered. That is, they have only intermittent access to not very high efficiency electricity.

They don't have plenty of access to transport fuels. They don't have access to energy for major industrial processes.

And they too suffer poverty because of this. So this is my point.

Not that fighting climate change by reducing fossil fuel use would disemploy poor people.

In fact, if anything, more people might be employed if we weren't using energy, but we would be employed very, very unproductively.

So what's crucial to employing people productively so that they have the food, the clothing, the shelter, the medical care, the transportation, the communications, all the other things that make the difference between struggling to stay alive on the one hand and really prospering and having the freedom to choose what you're going to do with your life?

Well, that's what access to energy enables. I could put it this way.

Back before the industrial revolution, the average caloric intake for people in France, for peasants in France, and by the way, peasants made up about 95 percent of the population, the average calories taken in per day were so few that those people didn't have enough bodily energy to work more than a few hours a day and then only for about three or four months per year.

The rest of the time they had to rest so that they didn't consume their own bodies by over consuming the calories they were able to take in.

That's because agricultural yields were so low. The average amount of wheat or maize or any other crop per acre farmed was very, very low.

It was low not just in terms of yield per acre, but also yield per hour of human labor put into it.

Energy is what makes the difference. So if we want to see people rise out of poverty, if we want to see them healthy, if we want to see them living long lives, if we want to see them able to have all sorts of different options for how they use our time, we need to support having abundant, affordable, reliable energy.

And fossil fuels continue to be the world's most important source of that. And they will continue to be that for at least generations to come.

It took over 100 years, in fact, over close to 200 years, to develop the world's current energy infrastructure centered on fossil fuels.

It will probably take at least another 100 years to 200 years to largely replace them.

And it's not going to happen with wind and solar. It's going to happen with nuclear because wind and solar are diffuse, very, very low energy density sources, and they are intermittent, and that makes them unsuitable for providing the abundant, affordable, reliable, instant -on -demand energy at massive scale to provide energy for so far 8 billion people around the world.

Wind and solar just will not do it. Now, to push back a little bit, does not, and do not, very often, the mandates and laws, restrictive laws, that oppressive governments very often impose upon people that restrict things that might cause them to lose employment be occurring globally just as the listener who submitted the question thought that you were saying.

Like, for instance, in the lumber industry, if a certain forest in a certain region of the world is being prohibited from being pursued for the lumber industry, we even have, we even have people from my former home on Long Island, New York, who make their livelihoods as fishermen being restricted from fishing in certain areas and for certain fish, that these fishermen claim are still out there in abundance and they're being told that these are endangered, that there's very few of them left, and the fishermen who have decades and maybe even generations of experience are saying this is a lie, and therefore you have people losing their businesses and having to give up businesses that have been generations old.

Yeah. Okay. You know, what it sounds like is that I may have misunderstood the question.

I wonder, Chris, would you mind just sort of rereading the question for me, because I hope

I didn't misunderstand it and I do want to respond to it as it was actually asked. Yeah, the listener was asking how exactly are people across the world losing employment as a result of the leftist policies and mandates.

Okay. It sounded to me as if the question were how are people losing employment because of access to vast amounts of energy.

I think it's exactly the opposite way around. The fact is that, for instance, when

President Biden ended the or, you know, canceled out development of the ...

Fracking? Well, okay. That would be an example. Yes. When he ended federal leases for natural gas exploration and drilling on federal lands all over the country, that put a whole lot of people in the gas industry out of work.

Or when he canceled the XL2 pipeline extension, that was that put a lot of people out of work.

As you mentioned, if you determine that a whole lot of forest area is off -limits to logging, people in the logging industry will lose work.

And by the way, that will also mean that lumber prices will rise, which means that fewer homes will be built, which means that there will be less employment in home building.

And if there's less employment in home building, there will also be less demand for new furniture, so there will be less employment in furniture building, and so on.

All of these things have ripple effects across the economy. So yeah, I do believe

I must have misunderstood the question. Unless I did, because I had already deleted the question and was going by my memory when

I resubmitted it to you. But well, it's good to have the fact that we have both of those answers anyway.

Yeah, now I would point out, by the way, that, and I'm going to probably make myself persona non grata to a lot of folks by saying this, but unemployment is not necessarily a bad thing.

The, or let me try to put it this way, the claim that a particular policy will create a bunch of jobs is not really a claim in favor of that policy.

Because jobs are a cost, right? Jobs are a cost.

And, you know, if what we want is a whole bunch of jobs, well, we could always hand people teaspoons and tell them to go out and dig ditches and fill them back up.

You could employ a whole lot more people digging ditches with teaspoons than with steam shovels.

You know, jobs are not the point. Production is the point.

Production of the food, the clothing, the shelter, all the transportation, the education, the communication, the medical care, and all these different things.

The entertainment, all the different things that we enjoy. Production is the issue.

And what we want to be aiming for is to produce more and more with fewer and fewer inputs of human time and energy, so that we get to use more and more of our time for, for enjoyment activities, not just productive activities.

Prior to the 20th century, roughly 85, 90 % of Americans made their livings on farms, and they tended to work 12 to 15 hour days.

And yet what they produced was so little that over 90 % of it had to be spent just for food and shelter.

And that's all. Because of industrial advance and because of the provision of vast amounts of energy to run all those machines.

Now, only under 2 % of Americans live and work on farms.

And yet they produce food more than sufficient for all of the 100 % of Americans, but also vast exports overseas.

So creating jobs is not the aim. Producing things that people need and want, that's the thing.

We have an anonymous listener who says, many people that I know personally who are conservative in all other areas, and even professing evangelical

Christians, are swallowing the lies of the government when it comes to all of the mandates of vaccines and masks, and even climate change.

I am aware of even a group of prominent evangelicals that were placing themselves in the forefront on the fight against climate change in the world, and were aligning themselves with liberals on this.

What draws these otherwise conservative people to adopt such views?

I think it's because they, in their minds, think that we always have to side with the intelligentsia on science and matters outside of what is typically found in the pulpit of a church.

And they wind up siding with leftists who have false science.

Well, the answer is that we cannot just make a blanket statement that applies to everybody in that category.

People get involved in various different movements and ideas for a variety of different motives.

Some of them are not such great motives. Some of them are much better motives. Some people are very well informed.

Some people are very poorly informed. So I would say that the average evangelical who's just simply kind of gotten involved as a minor part of his or her time in championing environmental causes, probably does so out of very good motives, wanting to take good care of God's earth that he has placed in our stewardship.

And that's a fine thing. People want to be, you know, in tune with the surrounding culture.

They don't want to have to stand out against what seems like a dominant majority view.

Some people may actually be convinced by what they consider to be the most important evidence.

So our responses to people need to really take into account what really drives them, rather than sort of just putting them all in one bucket and saying we're going to dismiss them for some particular reason.

I can point out, though, that I've been interacting with leading lights on the alarmist side among evangelicals, like, for instance, the evangelicals on the right -wing side of the earth for more than 17 years.

By the way, Cal, you're really breaking up. I'm sorry, can you repeat what you said? Because you started to really break up there for some reason.

Am I back clear now? Yeah, now you are, right. Is that better? Yes, right the second you are.

Okay, yeah, I've been interacting with these people for nearly 20 years, and what

I see is a combination of scientific illiteracy with a motive of desiring to help poor people around the world, but not realizing what really does help them, and not just scientific illiteracy, but often economic illiteracy as well.

But there is another thing behind some of this. I published a paper a number of years ago called

Evangelical Environmentalism, often paid for by liberal dollars, and what

I did was I used the Form 990s from a number of different foundations and whatnot, and I discovered that the

Evangelical Environmental Network and a variety of other evangelical environmentalist organizations are funded primarily by very, very liberal left -wing organizations, such as the

Rockefeller Brothers Fund, the Open Society Institute, other

George Soros -related organizations, the Tides Foundation, the

Hewlett Foundation, quite a large number of different ones, the

Energy Foundation. These are all left -wing, and they have funded evangelical environmentalism to the tune of many, many millions of dollars, stretching back even into the early 1990s.

So there is that behind it as well. Now, I will hasten to point out that that by itself is not a reason to reject your message.

To use it as such is to commit what logicians call the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem circumstantial.

Jones stands to benefit if Smith is persuaded by his argument.

Therefore, Smith doesn't need to answer his argument because Jones is only out after personal gain.

Well, try that with your oncologist when he diagnoses you with cancer. Does he stand to gain by medical fees if he treats your cancer?

You bet, but you better not ignore him because you need to deal with the actual evidence.

So while I do think that some people on the opposite side of this stuff from me are driven by financial support, we really need to pay attention to the best evidence.

This is why the Cornwall Alliance brings together the work of outstanding scientists and economists, along with theologians, to create a variety of major papers that actually really put the best evidence in front of people.

Those are all available at CornwallAlliance .org. Many of them are under a tab called

Landmark Documents. So people who want to see the actual evidence brought forth can go there,

CornwallAlliance .org, and then click on Landmark Documents. You know,

I am a big lover of debates, public moderated debates.

I've organized many of them, probably in the neighborhood of 25 or more, predominantly with my friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. But why don't we see more public moderated debates on these issues with leaders, especially leaders in science, on both sides of the issue, on opposing sides of the issue.

I think that would be a phenomenal way of, especially during cross -examinations, if the debates are run properly, of proving publicly that many of these who are on the leftist side, even if they claim to be scientists, or even if they are scientists, and are really motivated more by financial gain and not losing their careers and reputation, are perpetuating this stuff.

Think about this. Why does a politician who is running for office and who is way ahead in the polls not want to debate his opponent?

Nothing to gain and everything to lose. That's right. He's got nothing to gain and everything to lose.

So if you're on the side that already has the majority of the media and the politicians and even the public endorsing what you say, what in the world do you have to gain from debating?

And that's part of what we see from the refusal of climate catastrophists or climate alarmists to debate climate realists.

Let me give you an example though. Dr. Katherine Hayhoe is a climate scientist and professor of political science at Texas Tech University.

And she's the author of a couple of different books on climate change. She's definitely an alarmist.

She claims to be an evangelical. She's married to the pastor of what claims to be an evangelical church.

And she approaches the whole thing waving her evangelical flag as energetically as she can.

We at the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation have been challenging her publicly to a debate for about a decade now.

She not only has never accepted the challenge, she's never even responded to the challenge.

So you know what we think is that if the folks on the other side are willing to debate, the outcome of that debate is almost invariably that the audience shifts from being more persuaded of the alarmist perspective to being far less persuaded of the alarmist perspective.

And part of that is just simply because they don't get to see the other perspective. And when they do, they realize oh well there's more to this story than I first thought.

As you quote in the intro to your show, Proverbs says, the first one to tell his story sounds good and then his neighbor comes and questions and then you realize well maybe it wasn't quite that simple.

And we have to get our final break right now. It's gonna be a lot more brief than the other ones. If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. I'll be right back with Cal Weissner after these messages. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington DC for the

G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

Thursday September 15th through Saturday September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries and Darrell Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org that's g3min .org

and click on events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington DC.

So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington DC to the

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that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

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You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, Thursday September 22nd 11 a .m.

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IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you

Thursday September 22nd 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

Welcome back and now I'd like to have my guest Dr. Cal Beisner summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air.

Before we take any more listener questions I'll give you several minutes of uninterrupted time to do so.

Well thank you very much. First just let me thank you again for having me on the program. It's been a pleasure.

You know what I would say is that what I want people to come away with is the commitment to obeying the

Apostle Paul's instruction in 1st Thessalonians 5 21. Test all things, hold fast what is good.

Don't just accept something because I say it. Don't say accept something because Chris Arnzen says it.

Accept something because it stands the test of the Word of God. Because as you compare it with Scripture you find that it's consistent with Scripture not contrary to it.

And then in addition you can add other tests from empirical evidence and so on.

And so as people encounter the claims about climate catastrophe I would ask them to look for the evidence.

A good place to do that is CornwallAlliance .org But let me just point out for example that whereas it's widely thought that global warming over the last 50 years or so has resulted in more frequent and more powerful extreme weather events such as hurricanes, floods, droughts, tornadoes, and the like.

There is in fact no increase in the numbers or the intensity of such extreme weather events.

And don't take my word for it. This is the finding of the UN International Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change published in its 2012 special report on extreme weather events but also frankly repeated in its 2021 first volume of the sixth assessment report that came out back in August of last year.

So whereas the claims go about all the time in the mainstream media and by politicians and by environmental activists, the actual scientific evidence points the other direction.

We should be lovers of truth. And Jesus said that we would know the truth and the truth would make us free.

Now the most important truth for us to know is Jesus himself who said I am the way the truth and the life.

That's the truth he's talking about directly there in John 8 32. But truth of other sorts also is important to us.

If we become deceived by faulty claims about climate change, we risk being led down a path that is going to impoverish many people, trap others who are already poor in longer term poverty.

And that's just not a loving thing to do. The Lord tells us that the second great commandment after the first one to love the

Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength is to love our neighbor as ourselves.

We would not want for others to embrace policies that would that would trap us in poverty and disease and short lifespans.

Well, why would we want to allow that to happen to other people as well? I might add, by the way,

Chris, I did a quick search online. You had had one one person that asked a question about the founder of EDA for the ethical treatment of animals, thinking that somehow or other, she had become sort of an ally on the climate change front to skeptics, realists like myself.

I did some quick searching. And no, that's not the case. On March 27 of this year, she published an article in euronews .green,

that's euronews .green, called We're all in danger if we allow the climate crisis to be eclipsed by other news.

And in this article, she argues that things like the war in Ukraine and inflation and rising gas prices and all these different things are diverting people's attention from climate change.

And if we stop paying attention, it will soon rule out of reach. Well, we actually have another list of people fight climate change by becoming vegans.

Well, I think we have one of our listeners may have resolved this confusion.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, I think that the listener who was originally bringing up the founder of PETA was really thinking of the founder of Greenpeace.

Ah, yes, indeed. Yes, right. The founder and former president of Greenpeace is

Dr. Patrick Moore. He was the only scientist among the founders of Greenpeace.

And yes, Patrick, in fact, is a friend of mine. Wow. I wish that I could say that he's a fellow believer in Christ.

He is not. But he is a very good scientist, and he has been one of the most outspoken critics of climate change catastrophism.

Great. Well, I'm glad we had that settled. And, but that kind of misremembering can happen to anybody.

I want to, once again, remind our listeners to go to CornwallAlliance .org

for more details on the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation. That's Cornwall, C -O -R -N -W -A -L -L,

Alliance .org, CornwallAlliance .org. It's been such a joy having you back on the program,

Brother Beisner, and I'm looking forward to your frequent return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Well, thank you very much,

Chris. God bless you, and God bless all your listeners. Thank you. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater