Responding to Comments on "A Couple Thoughts" Part 3

Listening, Verification, and Discernment

So I sat down to edit the video that you're about to watch, and I was just struck by something. And I did notice it in the response video that I did. I did sort of a live response to some comments about a podcast appearance I did.

And I did notice it then, but I just wasn't really struck as much as I was when I went back and re-listened. This woman's comments are so interesting. She just repeats this drumbeat of, what you need to do is listen.

You need to listen. You're not listening. You don't want to listen. You know, this and that. And it's just so, it struck me so much. This woman's entire thought process in this issue has been so affected and controlled by cultural Marxism, by critical theory.

And she may not even know it. She may not have even read any books on critical theory or anything like that, but she's completely adopted the perspective. If you don't agree with her, she just assumes, well, you just haven't listened, and you're against listening, and you're saying we shouldn't listen.

You know, and I was just struck by how often she said these things. And I never said any such thing. In fact, in the podcast, I said you should listen. But what she means is that if you listen and you don't agree, well, then you should listen more.

And if you still don't agree, then you should listen more, and listen, and listen, and listen, and listen until you agree. And the answer to that is no. You know what I mean? I'm not just gonna listen and agree with you.

I'm not gonna listen and just accept what you say. I am gonna listen and listen with a discerning heart, listen with rational, you know, apply logic to it. And if it comports with reality, and if it's true, and if there's evidence for it, yeah, I'll agree with you, and I'll be a warrior with you, and I'd be glad to be on your side.

But if you're just telling me to listen and shut my brain off, and listen, and just follow my heart, and, you know, side with people that say that they're hurting and things like that, well, I will do that, but I'm not going to affirm them if it's not true.

If somebody's hurting because they think cops are out there beating Hispanics like hotcakes, and I know that they're not, I'm gonna listen to them. I'm gonna try to help them, but I'm not gonna believe them and start berating cops.

Just not gonna do it. Because that's not what God would have me do. God wants you to love, of course, the downtrodden, of course, the people that are sad, the people that are hurting, but he also wants you to love your cop neighbors.

You know what I mean? That would be unloving to do for your cop neighbors. And so you want me to listen? No. How do you like that? No. I'll listen the way I listen, the way that God says you should listen, with a discerning heart.

Listen with compassion, yes, but also with your wits about you and your rationality, and you make sure that things are true. You examine them, you check them out, things like that, before you go and start, you know, doing things to make restitution.

That's how I'm gonna listen, according to the scriptures. I'm not gonna listen just sort of, you know, shutting my brain off and just, you know, believing everything I hear. That's just not what I'm gonna do.

Responding to Claims About Listening and Racism

Anyway, hope this was helpful. Enjoy the video. One final batch of comments about my appearance on A Couple Thoughts podcast, and these are shorter, and so I'll just jump right into them. This person starts, it says, I think my main concerns in this particular conversation is the starting point.

We shouldn't or wouldn't want to be too gracious, extend too much consideration, become too apologetic. Is the furthest extension of this logic helping people we don't feel deserve it? Where does the gospel ever sound like that?

I disagree with the suggestion that listening to too many people is likely to cause us to miss the real problems. On the contrary, I'd suggest the better we get at listening, the less likely we are to miss the real problems in real time.

Care is not a depletable resource, especially not when fueled by the Holy Spirit.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

To be frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about. I just don't. I don't think I ever said that you shouldn't listen. In fact, I think I said the exact opposite. I actually agree with them. You should listen and you should take people seriously.

So if somebody tells you that they experienced racism and you're a white person, I don't think there's anything wrong with believing them. Yeah, I don't assume everyone that says something to me is lying.

In fact, I assume, at least I try to assume that they're telling the truth. Exactly. So yeah, there's everything good about that. And I wanna acknowledge that because I don't think there's that many people out there that just completely disregard black people when they say that there's racism out there, but maybe there might be some.

So if there are some listening, don't do that, you know? Yeah, yeah. But, and I never said that you could run out of grace or anything like that. In fact, I believe the exact opposite. And I didn't say that you should stop listening at some point, that there's a point where you don't listen to your brothers and sisters in Christ.

In fact, I said the exact opposite. I actually agree with them. Like, you should listen and you should take people seriously. So you should listen. You should listen. You should listen. So I'm not really sure where this is coming from.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what I'm saying. What I am saying is you listen, but you verify. You don't just listen and believe. That's a horrible way to decide what is true. You listen to your black and brown brothers and sisters in Christ.

You listen to people that are hurting. All of that listening is all good. It's all good. But then you don't just say, okay, I'm gonna take what you say and now action on it based on what you say alone.

No, you have to verify it. This is biblical. The Bible says you need two or more witnesses. The Bible says everyone sounds right until someone comes and examines him. These are biblical standards of evidence.

And so while I do listen to people and I will continue to do so, it doesn't necessarily mean that you action off everything that somebody says. It just doesn't. Anyway, she continues. I think to accuse people of being divisive for sharing experiences that have caused them pain and hardship opposes freedom.

I think there's room for all the real up in the house of the Lord. All the real up. I'm not sure what that means. Anyone hurt, caused to stumble, even by blind spots or sin unintended, bring it to the table.

Let's hash it out. Let's do it better. His grace is enough. Believers are called to sacrifice their own comfort and preference out of love for one another for the sake of unity, not to impose that on others.

What do we lose by listening with humility so that we might actually hear and see something new? Again, I have no idea what this person is talking about. I've never said that people were divisive for sharing their experiences.

What I did say was that people are divisive by acting divisively. So in other words, when Jamar Tisby said, I was scared to go to worship with my white brothers and sisters in Christ after Trump's election, he might've felt that, but that is a divisive comment.

It just, it's a prejudice comment. It's a racist comment is what it is. And so if he wanted to share his experiences where he's like, look guys, I just don't understand how you all voted for Trump. Please help me understand that.

That wouldn't be divisive. It wouldn't. That's a good comment. That's a conversation we can have. That's being very gracious. That would be Jamar setting aside his own comfort for the sake of unity. Have a conversation.

And the white brothers and sisters in Christ, hopefully would have that conversation with him. And that would be them setting aside their comfort for a good conversation and for unity in Christ. But that's very different than saying, I'm scared to worship with you.

I don't feel safe. It's not a safe space anymore because you voted for Donald Trump. That's divisive. Also the same thing with like Lecrae where he says, I'm divorcing white evangelicalism. That's divisive.

It's not about the experience. It's not about sharing. It's not about talking. It's because it's divisive. It's just that simple. And so sharing experiences isn't divisive inherently. No, I say I'm all for that.

I'm all for honest conversation, but it has to be a two-way street and it has to be something that we're all willing to do. I mean, it's just that simple. You can't be divisive and then say, well, why aren't you going along with it?

I'm not gonna go along with that. Anyway, we continue. I also dislike the suggestion that an entire people group is perpetuating a not real problem. As I've begun to listen, I have found quite the opposite to be true.

If listening or acknowledging trials or even an apology for circumstances I didn't dream up or intend, but they are there, I would make one more person able to worship God more freely. I think it would be worth it.

Okay, well, we just disagree on that. I don't think that it makes people more free to worship God, to apologize for things you didn't do. Okay, now, if you're saying you did do them, if you did something racially discriminatory and you didn't know it, and then you come to find out that it actually happened, yeah, you should apologize for that.

Absolutely. But apologizing for things you didn't do, that doesn't help anybody. In fact, that's dishonest and it lies to people and it actually causes people to stumble is what it does. But anyway, I'm not saying that people are perpetuating a not real problem.

What I am saying is that they're misunderstanding, they're misinterpreting. So in other words, if I were to walk down the street and get beat up by a cop, right, and it was unjust, and so I'm a Hispanic guy and I got beat up by a cop and it wasn't right.

And so that would be my experience, right? So for me to then go and say, in America, we have a problem with Hispanics getting beat up for no reason. This is a rampant problem and everyone's got to deal with it.

Well, that's not necessarily true. Just because I experienced something, that was a real problem, my personal experience. That doesn't mean that America has a real problem, okay? That's where the disconnect is.

So I'm not saying that these people are lying about their lived experiences. Some of them are and we can demonstrate that. But I'm not saying that most people are, especially in the house of God. I'm not gonna accuse people in the church of lying without knowing that they are.

So it's a real problem for them, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a real problem for everybody else. It's just that simple. That's what I'm saying! She continues, in this broader discussion, I've been most moved by brothers and sisters who have weathered a lifetime of inequalities in opportunity, comfort, and even injustice, but are still here in the body of Christ, loving and serving, walking in grace and truth.

I'm concerned by the defensive tone I find at the other end of the spectrum. As I alluded earlier, it seems to me that engaging this area within the church seems far less harmful than opposing the conversation in the name of unity.

I agree, we shouldn't oppose the conversation, but the defensive tone that you're hearing is probably because people are being put on the defensive. What? Bro, what are you talking about, man? Churches that are not racist are being accused of being racist.

Churches that are solid churches that have never practiced partiality are being accused of practicing partiality. That's probably where the defensive tone is coming from. I'm not defensive. I'm not white.

I'm not being accused of anything, so I'm not defensive, but I can understand why people do seem defensive, because they're constantly being called racist, constantly being called to task for things that they didn't do, asked to be repented.

People are asking white people to repent of sins they did not commit. Yeah, I'd be defensive, too. I get it. What you talking about? What you talking about? What you, what you, what you talking about, Willis?

And so, you know, those comments were okay, because I don't really disagree with any of them, but I just don't see how they apply to our conversation. Seems to me that there's a lot of assumptions being made.

You're not listening. I actually agree with them. Like, you should listen, and you should take people seriously, so. Isn't that a common, a common thing that we're hearing? Every time, every single piece of feedback so far has been you're just not listening.

How do you know? Well, they know because you don't agree, and in their mind, if you listen to them, enough, you would agree. And basically, you should just listen until you agree. This is critical theory.

This is the influence of critical theory. There's nothing biblical about that. Anyway, I hope this was helpful. God bless.

What color is the sky in your world?