August 10, 2016 Show with George Grant on “Thomas Chalmers: A Voice of Biblically-Shaped Sanity from the Past in a World Gone Mad”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Sarnes and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th day of August 2016.

I'm so delighted to have back on the program. Dr. George Grant who is pastor of parish Presbyterian Church founder of New College Franklin and president of the King's Meadows Study Center and founder of Franklin Classical School in Tennessee today.

We're discussing Thomas Chalmers a voice of biblically shaped sanity from the past in a world gone mad. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to the program. Dr. George Grant. And I know that My former co-host who will be re who will be visiting Iron sharpens iron an occasion, but he was called back to work after medical leave the Reverend Buzz Taylor and I know that he is probably weeping somewhere uncontrollably because he could not be here today because dr Grant is one of his modern-day heroes, but a Shout-out to you Reverend Buzz Taylor wherever you are.

And I hope that you are blessed by at least the recording of the program and we look forward to you returning whenever you can During your busy work schedule, and I thank you for all the months that you served on this program every day.

As my co-host on iron sharpens iron and as I said, I hope that you can come back soon at least for an occasional visit. But before we go into the subject at hand of Thomas Chalmers and His being a voice of biblically shaped sanity from the past in a world gone mad I want to know something more about the parish Presbyterian Church.

You've already explained these things on your last visit, but there are new listeners to iron sharpens iron. I'm discovering almost every day it seems and Would like you to let our listeners know something about The church and the college that you founded and the King's Meadow Study Center.

Well, thanks. Yeah the church in Franklin on the east side of the beautiful old Civil War town of Franklin, Tennessee established in the beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee place for the work of the ministry and here for More than 20 years have been able to start schools be be involved in a lot of community efforts over the course of those years.

The church itself Church in America trying to do any faithful to What the scriptures call a prophetic or culture and that means that we've got to be involved in a lot of different things. So we're a different reach ministries.

Some of those that you mentioned King's Meadow Study Center are K through 12 classical. We worked with another local church of ours to establish a new college Franklin College and We've got a lot of it involved in.

We have something called the Franklin resolves to help businessmen of the day from a biblical perspective. We've got something called Clapham forum, which is an opportunity folks to to learn about What's what's driving the headlines of our day again from a bit just a great place and a great time To be involved in all of this.

We'll repeat our email address for those of you.

Who'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr. Grant? It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris they are nz n at gmail .com and please include your first name your city and state and Your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

But please only do so if for some reason you find the need to remain anonymous. Perhaps you're bringing up something that your church disagrees with or something that makes you feel uncomfortable identifying yourself but other than that, please let us know at least your first name and where you are from and.

Our subject today is Thomas Chalmers and how his Biblically shaped voice of sanity is much needed in our world today a world gone mad. I know that Thomas Chalmers was a great and is a great hero from the 19th century a hero of the Christian faith the first moderator of the Free Church of Scotland After the disruption and the man who was at the center of a recovery that brought the churches in Scotland from mediocrity indifference and unbelief to new conditions of spiritual vitality.

But if you could let us know something more about this man and why you wanted to discuss His legacy today and why we need to learn from much of what he believed today.

Well Thomas is one of my great heroes Chris. I have Been collecting all of his works and that they're hard to find despite the fact that they There are more than a hundred works that he wrote During his lifetime.

I've been collecting them over the last 20 years or so and I am Continually amazed at both his brilliance his geniuses wide-ranging Interest in the application of the But also his incredible relevance to the issues that we face today.

It's a it's almost unconscionable that he is Practically a forgotten figure. As as late as just before World War one The great historian William Beveridge was able to say Thomas Chalmers as all the world knows was born in the Fife Shire town of Anster in the year 1780.

That sentence is full of irony today. Because of course all the world's doesn't know any of that. Why it would be important to know any of that.

I.

Again a.

Great.

Biographer of our own time in Murray has said There is not any difficulty in explaining the indifference of the modern secular mind to Chalmers. And neither is it surprising that churchmen of a liberal persuasion Should lack enthusiasm for his memory.

But what is more Problematical is the question of why? Evangelical Christianity itself should not have made so little of him for these many years when I Share that that dismay of in Murray's that that Chalmers has really fallen out of evangelical Christians and.

Even.

Chalmers own tribe. The the reformed world. He's just a forgotten thing. I think it's really important for us to talk about him and as you say his biblically Shaped thinking is so important for a world gone mad.

Well it's.

No mystery why the broadly evangelical world of the 21st century Might not know who he is. But why on earth are people who love the reformed faith who typically are also very much in tune with history who are typically known as voracious readers and who are Among those who want desperately to learn from the past the great minds that have lived before us as opposed to today.

Where everybody's looking for some fresh new voice or thought which usually means that it's not in the pages of the scriptures. But why is it that we of all people? Largely do not know who Thomas Chalmers is or his legacy that he has left.

Well Thomas great friend and co-laborer William Wilberforce because he's reading Chalmers is not easy reading. Part of that is that Chalmers was a man in the Pre-victoria. Part of it is wide economy and dogmatics and history to the problems of the banking system and economics problem.

But I think part of it is is that his vision for the growth of the church and for the advance of the gospel in modern times counterintuitive to the modern mindset.

You know, that's amazing that he since he had basically an interest and a command of such a vast spectrum of subjects that he would be left behind and not Return to often as a source of information today when there are so many things so many areas in life Where the Christian faith is being challenged.

It's being mocked It's being rejected. It's being ignored Because of the fact that they think the society around us think That we do not have the true answers to nearly anything unless of course somebody is in desperate need of help and They're right.

Those Christians are very often the first people they turn to even if they despise what they believe but. And of course There is very good reason why a lot of the lost world laugh at Christianity because there are a lot of major figures in Christianity today who are among the most popular writers and televangelists and radio hosts who Unconsciously are making fools of themselves.

Right.

Chalmers was the problems of a crowding of a new kind of multigenerational. Very contrary to the kinds of answers that we moderns to the result in times. It was by those who are pushing forward the progressive agenda of late 19th and early 20th century.

Progress still very much a kind of unpopular model. Chalmers believed that there were biblical answers to the problems that faced modern world and that the way forward was to remember the pathways the old paths as J .C. Ryle called them.

He was an advocate of church planting. He was an advocate of churches equipping and training the poor economy. He believed in biblical fidelity and thus was that he foresaw the day of The intrusions of the messianic state in Wilberforce.

Wickedness in high places.

Would he have been. I don't know if they even used the term Libertarian back then but would he have if you were to describe him today if he were alive. Would he have leaned more in that direction a very small government and so on.

As a result of these views he had.

He did advocate a small representative government. He was like concentrating power much an advocate Williams what paralyzed hands rather than in London or in foreshadowed Counterintuitivism very Moral effort be like some of them not only in the economic and political realm, but also in the moral well.

I just recently interviewed a Christian libertarian.

Who.

Stated that those who Believe in a woman's so-called freedom to have an abortion is absurd because one of the libertarians Concepts of the role of the government the one of the very few roles that the government is supposed to have according to libertarians is the protection of life and Therefore they should not be Letting the most defenseless among us be easily murdered by anyone, right?

Advocate of the care of the needy and the poor. The despisedvised ways for the poor to be lifted out of poverty without government assistance. That was a part of help to start The modern missions movement and the sending of missionary he was.

It was quite extraordinary in that regard.

Was he influenced at all by William Carey then who is known as the father of modern-day missions?

Well, they were to some degree contemporaries and and That eventually sent carry to India Was very well connected to Chalmers and they were they were kind of on parallel paths and Wound up being allies became the greatest missions movement.

Now you brought up something very important about Chalmers compassion for the poor and his genius Involved in coming up with strategies to help The poor to not just be fed and clothed but to Provide them for themselves a living and so on there is a obviously as you know, a Division amongst those who profess to be Christian today.

You have a lot of people who? Lean towards voting for liberal political candidates, even if they are pro-life And vehemently opposed to abortion and other things like that, but they really think that the conservatives model for government is Not compassionate and not even concerned with the needs of the poor.

They view that as on Christ like and then you have on the other side of the divide the more conservative Views of those who vote more Republican or even Libertarian who say that is not the job of the government to be involved in rescuing the poor out of their poverty that is To be in the hands of benevolent Citizens and the church should be involved in that and then of course you have people will say yeah I like that idea too, but the church isn't doing it adequately And we need help etc.

I'm getting evicted from my house tomorrow. What am I going to do? Nobody's helping me. So that kind of thing. How was traumas a voice of sanity in that regard?

What Thomas would have? Recognized that dilemma immediately because it was the same sort of other wigs or progressives the reformers who wanted more and more government intrusion. For the second, you know to be sure the Origin of the wig movement grew up out of the work of people like Wilberforce and Shaftsbury and others.

There were the Tories who were really the voice of the land hold and there really wasn't much of a voice for ordinary people anywhere. Recognized that neither the Tories nor the wigs had a really biblical answer the point.

He also recognizes the church was not doing its job. Part of his reform was to demonstrate that the old parish model caring for one another's for one another in a mechanism by which accountability and responsibility Along with place in order to demonstrate could actually like Glasgow in a model utilizing the model of ritual men have a Marketable trend best not have to.

What we've got to do is we've got to these models wanted and and.

We have a listener CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island who wants to know was Thomas Chalmers affected by Darwinianism. Since I know there are both 19th century century figures, and I know that Individuals like BB Warfield who were very sound otherwise were somewhat influenced by that unbiblical ideology.

Well, I believe the origin of the species was written before. Or should I say after Chalmers died? So I don't write.

20 years. Yeah, Thomas was a part of that whole. But one of the things that is very clear from his writing is that he believed that modern science genuine humility what the Bible said what Moses wrote and taken and.

A lot of people don't know and I don't know why conservatives Especially the those in the pro-life movement Don't hammer this. Every time there is a public debate on the issue of Evolution or even when politicians are asked routinely. Do you believe in evolution or creation and there are usually mocked like Chris Matthews loves to mock and laughs hysterically whenever a Political candidate says that he does not believe in evolution.

Well, I don't know why they don't bring up the original title of that book by Darwin Which is the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life and that is a very easily Verifiable documented fact and that that whole that whole theory comes out of pure racism.

And it's amazing that Conservatives don't really hammer that Fact over and over again in public when they have media exposure. I'm just puzzled by it, but.

Yeah, Chalmers was Thomas Malthus and Malthus was focused largely on the pop were growing only Arithmetically and therefore he believed that within a very short period of time a generation or two at most.

The world was and therefore he advocated the elimination of large numbers the father of the modern eugenics and Population movements and a lot of the philosophical grounding like Planned Parenthood. Well Thomas Chalmers Was very well aware of Malthus's writings and actually Met Malthus at one point during a lecture Edinburgh.

Darwin, of course picked up on Malthus's ideas used them even though Chalmers we can already see the Chalmers's and and we have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And We will get to those who are already waiting to have their questions asked and answers answered as soon as we can when we come back from the break and So don't go away we're gonna be right back with dr. George Grant and our discussion on Thomas Chalmers.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Barnes and your host of iron sharpens iron and our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go Is dr. George Grant. We are discussed. We are discussing Thomas Chalmers a great 19th century voice that needs to be heard today in a world gone mad and Before I return to that topic and to the guest to the listeners who are waiting to have their questions asked I do want to remind you that the g3 conference is going to be held this January 19th through the 21st in Atlanta, Georgia and they are going to be celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation and By God's good grace.

I am going to be there. Of course God willing unless there is some other plan that God has that I'm unaware of but I will be there. I'm scheduled to be there. I'm planning to be there and I will have a table there to record some programs for iron sharpens iron.

And I hope that I meet many of you who listen to this program regularly at this conference January 19th through the 21st 2017 some of the speakers include Paul Washer Steven J. Lawson da Carson Vodi Balcom my dear friend of nearly 30 years.

Dr James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries. Tim Chalice one of the most powerful preachers I've ever heard in my entire life. My friend. Dr. Conrad M Bayway of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia Africa.

Phil Johnson of grace to you ministries and Quite a number of other Speakers and also Todd Friel who's going to be on the program God willing this Monday Todd Friel is going to be discussing his book on Stress and a biblical remedy for stress.

So we hope you join us for that, but there for more details on this conference go to g3 conference .com that's G and the number three conference .com and If you Register for the conference, please tell them that you heard about it from Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio.

So we would really appreciate that very much and now we are going to go to another one of our listeners this one in a place where I would really hope that our listener Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan gathers a group of Concerned citizens to change the name of that City's Clinton Township.

It just bothers me every time I see the name Clinton in the name of that city, but Jeff and Clinton Township Michigan. He asks and of course you already addressed some of what he asks. Dr. Grant, but he says being an enlightened church leader.

Did Chalmers impose the science of his day upon the Holy Scriptures? But then he also follows up with a question. Did he have any dealings with the English preacher Octavius Winslow?

Well.

Body, which we come from. Why all of us wind up in you know, our understanding of the world? It's just a day in time. It's one of the reasons why CS Lewis often Would recommend most famously in his introduction to Athanasius is on the incarnation That we read old books that we read books.

He makes the argument that even our opponents ideological and theological Opponents in our own day have certain assumptions that are just native to the times. So it would be foolish for anybody to say ours or anybody else was free from the assumptions of their day.

I will say this. I'm oftentimes surprised By how our owners would argue that the geologists say that he had exercised a level of oftentimes absent from modern society here attempting knowing That that science our understanding of the natural world is very fluid and what we think we know With an absolute certainty in one age.

So Thomas was very very Good about that. In terms of the second question about Octavius Winslow, I actually do not find in any of Tomer's correspondence Any I'm not even sure that dates of when they any correspondence.

Well, we thank you very much Jeff in Clinton Township and please keep spreading the word in Michigan and beyond about iron sharpens iron radio and It's always good to hear from you. One of the things that you just mentioned about people who unconsciously import Contemporary thoughts into their reading of Scripture.

Don't you think it's very important?

For.

Christians to always Remind themselves about their own Fallibility and that we all have our traditions. We very often view the Church of Rome and other more ceremonial religious organizations. That they are just heaped with the traditions of men, but we forget that we have our own traditions and even we unconsciously at times impose those traditions upon our hermeneutics and our exegesis of the Bible.

Yes.

And then there are these unquestioned sort of realities seems to be our grid. For thinking which is one of the reasons why? We really have to as Christians constantly go back evaluate them through the lens of Scripture.

Because we pick up by osmosis so much from our own culture. Unconsciously, and so it's our tradition. It's our background. It's the day and age in which we live. It's the malaise of the moment. Part of the edification is really bringing every thought.

By the way Octavius Winslow lived nearly 30 years beyond.

Thomas Chalmers just to let her know I was thinking that that Winslow was was born. I'm what around 1808 or a nine and I think he died in 18 78 or 79 so probably he was a very young man when Chalmers died.

Amen we have. We have a listener Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who says I keep hearing that the American political arena needs to Return to or adopt an atmosphere of politeness and Civility that we seem to have lost.

But my problem with that idea is how can you be polite and civil? when you are discussing.

The.

Brutal murder of unborn children.

Well, the answer to that is that you don't resort to name-calling. You don't resort to language boldly prophetic like a Jeremiah or an Amos and and name names and name sins but always Maintaining very important for us, but we should be unflinching in the declaration of what's in bold.

And identifying it. But that can be done with Christian virtue necessary kind of Tomfoolery that we see in the political arena today. We're buffoonish name-calling and mocking and sarcasm.

Become the rule of the day. You must be watching different television sets than I'm watching because I don't know what you're talking. Yeah, obviously an ad hominem. When you're when you're personally attacking somebody like a Junior high school student you are revealing that you don't really have facts to back up what you believe or you don't know those facts.

I mean that's.

Unfortunately, I'm homonym and glittering generality and a whole host of other logical in our day and that that's that's. Not something that has become. We've got to lead the way. So that does not mean that entity of life that exists in our day we can boldly prophesy.

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Who says forgive me if I missed something because I didn't hear the program from the beginning. But can you tell us something about the background and Upbringing of Thomas charmers that eventually shaped him to the man.

He became.

That's a great question and we have not actually talked much at all about his younger years. He was Born in Fife Shire, which is that part of Scotland? That is part of that peninsula of Edinburgh is father large six of 14 children he had eight brothers.

He was prodigious in his Knowledge and learning so much so that at the atrium of grammar logic and rhetoric in English Latin Greek and By the time he was 11 years old. He was able to sufficiently master language literary and felt that he was Recommended to advance his studies at the University of St. Andrews at the age of 11.

So he was obviously a prodigious mind right from the start. Seethingly gifted he was unregenerate. He did not come to know Christ until years after. Was obviously quite brilliant. But as he would later confess he was infected with The spirit of what was then called moderately a moralist Siblings with the truth of the gospel great mathematician you come to realize basic lesson of mathematics.

Which is the lesson of proportionity and too much of temporality? Thus worded and didn't sound like the average preacher you know a wide-ranging knowledge of science and politics and economics and that in a caused while he certainly bemoaned those lost years when He he thought that Christianity was a matter of mind those early years and yet God used those early years to to make his mind what it was.

Well that that's it sounds. I know that you were a founder of a classical Christian school. Of that that sounds very much like the model of classical education that well-rounded concept of educating people from The areas of life that Christians are exposed to and even require That are in the secular realm in addition to that which is from the scriptures.

Yes, and that you know that was the motion really up until say the end of the 19th century the beginning of the 20th and so, you know really and truly classical Christian education is what bridge in Oxford and st. Andrews and The University of Edinburgh and Harvard and Princeton that that's what they add into those Institutions were also mission that it goes all the way back to the time of Augustine.

Actually.

Yeah, it's it's fascinating to learn that he was already a minister when he. Became by God's mercy a born-again believer in Christ reminds me of Abraham Kuyper. Who I believe was led to Christ by an elderly woman in the church, wasn't he?

Yes, it's a very similar story. It's by the way, one of the reasons why Abraham Kuyper that Chalmers created for his own work there in the Netherlands.

We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says if Thomas Chalmers needs to be heard today and Discovered by many who are ignorant of him and your guest George Grant is such a prolific writer.

Why doesn't he write books about Thomas Chalmers?

That is a wonderful question and it's a number of folks who know me have been am Working on a number of Chalmers. Solid ground Christian books. Solid ground has published two books one of the New Testament one of the Old Testament.

By Chalmers solid ground books. I find some there and you'll be able to To read directly from Chalmers, but I am working on several books. I'm working on one called Keystones which was.

The.

Model that Chalmers used to disciple men. One of the things that's quite remarkable about him. And you can read this stuff a wonderful book entitled the st. Andrews seven published by banner of truth.

Seven one particular method that involves scripture memory. Particular time description memory that enabled students full grasp not only of the wide range of biblical theology. But the whole Bible is a really remarkable system.

Anyway, I've got a book about that Discipling method. I've got a short and that's got a quick survey of his life as well. But the the big thing is I've been working for quite some time on a big biography entitled a wider diameter of light and.

That big biography is probably still years away. But but I am is.

Christopher and Suffolk County, New York. On your payroll or something. Or is he a prophet?

But I'm glad he asked the question.

Yeah. And for those of you listening who want to know more about these solid ground Christian books Publications by Thomas Chalmers their website is solid dash ground dash books .com solid dash ground dash books .com and I happen to have an inside A person there that may be very interested in publishing some things by you.

Dr. Grant. So let me know.

I'm not looking for a traditional publishing deal. I've done that for years and years and One of the great frustrations I think of our day. Like politics and so many other things the publishing model is kind of broken.

I'm gonna make sure that this is done, right?

We have let's see here. We have BB and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who writes some of the things that divide even We who are reformed Christians today that seem to be causing a lot of strife and conflict amongst our fellow Calvinists are the issues of theonomy the federal vision and theistic evolution.

Was there any counterpart of those? Ideologies in Chalmers day, and how did he address them and What is your guest's view on all three of those issues?

It's a great question and I think it's a it's a very relevant question. St. Clair Ferguson is actually just Recently written a wonderful book entitled the whole Christ Which deals with something called the Mero?

Controversy. Controversy was a theological battle within the Church of Scotland that took place in the generation prior to Chalmers and.

And.

What the Mero controversy was about was that there was? Basically, there were basically two schools of thought within the Church of Scotland on the questions of redemption. One was and the other was very legalistic.

And.

What what the Mero men which included Thomas Boston and a few others? Including the Erskine brother gospel was neither Antinomian nor was it legalistic. Chalmers inherited when he was Unregenerate he would have fallen into you even though he was ideological.

When he came to Christ, he he actually saw the beauty of the gospel a free offer of grace and the transforming work of grace. To cause the believer to desire to walk in the ways of the Lord to walk in the ways of the Lord by the power of the Spirit or of grace not an Ideological jumping forward.

I think that the federal vision guys Many of whom are my friends Reformed circles we talk a lot about the covenants. So we talk much about what the covenant is or what it answer that question that they answer the question in a very Antithetical that the law of God.

Why is it that modern Christians do not know men would say a while God's law established clearly the character and nature of God's own attributes and his own cross of Jesus pivot point which changes everything and Therefore you can't think that law Ceremonial law, but but actually becomes the transforming element for all of us out of a merriment people like Thomas Steadying influences of the reformed world in our day.

I deeply respect guys from other views and other traditions. But but I think the merriment grasped that enabled them to steer between the twin traps of Legalism on the one hand and antinomianism on the other and.

I want to pick up on some of those thoughts when we return from our break. And if you'd like to join us on the air with questions of your own. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com ch r is a r n z e n at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Hoping to hear from some of our Scottish and Australian listeners today. We seem to have been getting a number of them lately.

So if you're listening Please shoot us an email. We already have a couple of people waiting so we will get to you God willing as as quickly as possible after the station break and don't go away. We're gonna be right back with dr George Grant and the importance of Thomas Chalmers and his biblical worldview in our day and age of madness.

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