Justin Peters at a Kenneth Copeland Conference?

It's fascinating to me how easily someone in one religion can find the fallacies and biases in another religion.

I think that what's fascinating... You're razor sharp on your criticism of Islam here.

Yeah, but what I find fascinating, Jeff, is that you recognize that with other religions, but you don't do it with your own.

Because I... That may be the case. And there's that confirmation bias coming up again.

Welcome to Apologetics Live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapoport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro, and Pastor Justin Pierce.

That's right. We are live, Apologetics Live, here every Thursday night. Well, at least most

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Just a theory. We're not being boastful in that. We have just believed that, well, we can say,

I don't know, and that's a perfectly good answer. All right, Pastor Justin, welcome. We got you here.

You finally made it. Yeah. You've been out at seminary and things, so we're going to just do something real quick off the board there.

Let me play something from the Rap Report. Here, we'll play this clip.

Now it's time for Name That Fallacy. Name That Fallacy.

Name That Fallacy. You got a board over your shoulder there, so why don't we name that fallacy? Pick one at random and let's discuss that fallacy.

Confirmation bias. Oh, you cheated. Well, we already saw an example of that in our intro there.

Actually, you just did that one. Let's do a different one. Well, hold on. Actually, that's going to come in really good. Confirmation bias is a good one.

What we have with confirmation bias is where someone is going to look at something, and a good example of this would be, well, things like evolution.

That's a good example. What do you have? You have people that believe in evolution, and they will only accept information that supports their bias.

In other words, the starting point is evolution is true. Now when we look at information, we look at it, what does it that supports the conclusion?

You have a bias toward your conclusion. The only information you'll accept with confirmation bias is that which confirms the bias, hence the name confirmation bias.

Now, one of the ways I like to illustrate this, especially with those that profess to be atheists, is with a little scenario.

Justin, play along with me. We'll have some fun with this, since I didn't know you'd choose that one. I have a different one that we'll talk about in a few minutes.

I want you to give honest answers for this, and not try to play games, but I'm going to pretend like you're a professing atheist.

You want to believe that evolution is true, and so typically what you find with evolution is that people will make arguments, and no matter what kind of arguments you give, they're going to find a way to confirm their bias.

They're going to find a way to excuse whatever information you give. So now, Justin, not to give too much details about yourself, your name is?

Justin. Justin, okay, there we go. You were born in? America.

Okay, you want to go with that? That's fine. And the year, roughly? Roughly 1900.

1900s. Okay, be more specific. Okay, 70s. Huh? 1970s.

1970s, all right. Now, folks, I happen to know for a fact that the person that I'm sharing the show with right now, his name is

Steve. He was born in Italy in 1915. Now, Steve, do you want to try to prove that I'm wrong?

Go ahead, give me evidence. Birth certificate. We have manufactured, people have made fake birth certificates.

You can ask Barack Obama, he's got one. Go on. Okay. My mom was there.

She's been lying to you all your life, Steve? Do you think she's going to start telling you the truth now? Well, that's a possibility.

So let me see, driver's license? Yeah, I had a fake one of those when I was 15, you know.

You see, what am I doing? No matter what evidence he gives me, even if it's legitimate evidence, what do

I do? I excuse it away with something that I'm going to hold to. I'm going to start with my bias.

I'm only going to accept information that supports the bias. Anything that doesn't support the bias, I reject or find a way to excuse.

That is confirmation bias. There you go. I've actually done this example with many professing atheists.

It's kind of fun to do. They really try to convince you that they know their name and things like that, and yet you can very easily reveal that no, they're wrong.

Okay. What ends up happening with it is they start to go, wait a minute, I know all these details.

Yeah. But you see, if you allow that and now apply it to the same way that people argue for evolution, you see that they do the same thing.

They look at evidence. They can see the evidence. Let's look at some examples for the billions and millions of years the universe existed, supposedly.

Simple things like, well, we could look at blue stars, for example. Stars that are blue or hotter, they don't last very long, and therefore what you end up seeing is that if you have a blue star, it would cool down over millions of years, and yet we see blue stars.

We see comets. What's a comet? Well, a comet, you end up seeing the tail of the comet. What is that? That is just a ball of material that is breaking up as it goes through space, and that's the tail is the breaking up of material.

Well, they can't last millions of years. So someone goes, oh, we have an Oort cloud. Oort cloud.

What Professor Oort named it after himself. And so this mythical thing that's in the sky somewhere that creates new comets.

Have we seen an Oort cloud? Is there any evidence of an Oort cloud? No, but it must exist because we know the universe is billions of years old.

That's the bias. And now we see comets. We know they can't last that long.

So there must be something that produces them, along with blue stars and other things. That's how confirmation bias works.

Now, oh, go ahead. I was going to say, David Neff, he's our local critic that thinks he knows everything.

He actually says that he's doing a facepalm, and he says he's convinced that this is satire.

Go do some research on blue stars and comets. And you can actually see, go research what an

Oort cloud is. And you will see that the argument for an Oort cloud is that we know comets can't last millions of years.

And so hopefully I am trying to get Dr. Jason Lyle on so we can maybe talk about this in greater detail.

If he comes on, we're really having him on to talk about Flat Earth. That'll be a Flat Earth subject.

So some of the things I want to talk about before we get to the main topic, which we're going to talk about, Justin Peters and I, where we were last week.

But first, I am hoping next week we are hoping to get a gentleman on. He's got a great first name, but bad theology.

His name is Andrew. I won't give his last name yet, but he is hopefully going to come on. And he's in my

Christian Apologetics Facebook group. Now, I have a simple policy in Christian Apologetics. We don't allow trolls, but we don't just remove trolls.

We give them an opportunity to defend themselves. And so he has been making a case.

He asked the question, who wrote Q? Now, background on what

Q is and what we're hoping to have with him next week. Q is short for Quellum.

It is German for source. The idea is that there must be a source document where Mark got his information that was then added to by Luke and Matthew.

Do we have any historical evidence for Q? No. If you get my book, What Do We Believe? Chapter 2,

I go through that. I even give you from New York Times bestseller book, and he ends up saying that there's no evidence for Q, but we know what it said by looking at what

Mark says and looking at what Matthew and Luke add to it. And from there, we can imply what it says.

The reality is we don't have evidence. Evidence would be some reference to this source document.

There's no reference to this prior to the last couple hundred years. Well, and the reason they would say that you have to have

Q is simply because of the relationship between Matthew and Mark and Luke and the synoptics, how closely they are, and they work off of each other, or they appear to.

As you look at it, you say, man, these things are so closely related and the conversation is so closely related.

We must have all of these guys must be using a single author, and we're like, his name is

God. And they're going, no, his name is Q. But there's no evidence.

Well, the issue with it is that by saying there's a source document, that avoids eyewitness testimony, which is what the gospels are.

And so you don't have this. The way they argue for Q, the argument is there had to be the source document that Mark copied from.

And Mark started to embellish a little bit and say that Jesus was God, just a little. But then

Matthew and Luke supposedly did it more. They embellished a lot more stories, and then John was kind of just off on his own, and that's why

John talks about Jesus as God. And they talk about this as the evolution of how Jesus became God. Here's some of the dilemma with it.

First off, and you know I've been working on a book for years now, unfortunately, but I'm bad with it.

I love the research for books. I don't like the writing process. But I've done the research and I've counted through the gospels all the direct and indirect references for Jesus Christ being

God. And Luke actually has the fewest amount. Now, it is true that Mark is the shortest.

So the idea is that since Mark is so short, Matthew and Luke embellished off that.

However, my argument would be that Matthew is probably the first gospel because Matthew is written to a

Jewish audience, which would have required an earlier date because a later date, the

Jewish -Gentile issue is not so much of an issue, and therefore that doesn't make sense that Matthew would be writing to a mostly

Jewish audience when most of the church at that point was Gentile. Go ahead.

Sorry, thought you were done there. In my New Testament Studies class, we're actually reading through the four gospels.

I forget the author's name. He actually presents the same discussion. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Those are the authors' names of the gospels. Yeah, there you go. He actually starts with Matthew and he discusses the fact that this invisible queue that has no historical background, no evidence, no discussion.

It has, like I said, no history. Nobody, Josephus, no one ever referred to anything like this.

Until you come up into the 1930s to 70s, somewhere in there.

I can't remember exactly what it was, but I think it was the 70s, actually, before anybody even started trying to really lay this at the feet of one author that everybody stole from.

I really do like that because it's like, so it can't be God, but you've got to say an author that you can't find in any antiquity anywhere.

He's got to be the one. It's kind of like an Oort cloud. Yeah, it's kind of like the Oort cloud that David Neff really wants to have discussions about.

He's in the background just going crazy because he really wants to talk about your Oort cloud. Okay. Well, we'll see if we get to that because we do have to see if we get to that second hour.

But let's deal with this queue thing. One of the things is that what you have the argument for with this is that you had to have one source that another author got it from that source, got it from that source, got it from that source.

That is not how, well, say, newspapers work. I mean, just take a look. You have newspaper articles.

What do you have? You have lots of articles written about an event that happens. You have differences in those articles, but a lot of similarities.

Do the similarities mean, as they argue, that there had to be an original source? Well, there was an original source of those things.

What is it? Eyewitness testimony. People sit in the White House press conference in the pressing room.

They sit there. They hear who's ever going to be speaking. Say it's Joe Biden. Well, it's usually not him.

He's not there too much. But he gets up to speak.

What happens? You end up having people reporting what he says.

Now, are people going to have the wording exact, even when they're quoting him? No. Sometimes they're going to be a little bit off.

Sometimes people are going to focus on one detail versus another detail. That's what you have with eyewitness testimony, exactly as we have in the

Gospels. Some articles are going to be longer than others. But just because one person's article is longer doesn't mean he copied it from another.

So these are some of the things we're going to end up dealing with. But the one question I had for this guy, Andrew, in the Christian Apologetics group is, where's your evidence?

He's like, well, we can imply it. Well, what that is is a different fallacy that's probably up on your wall called begging the question.

Begging the question fallacy is when you have to first accept the very thing that you're trying to prove.

So he accepts that Q exists, and that's the thing he's trying to prove. He accepts that Q must exist because you imply it.

There's no evidence for it. Remove the acceptance of Q existing, and you find no support for it.

And you have to think about it. It's the same thing as the Oort cloud. It's all by faith. We don't have any evidence for it, but we have faith that it has to be there because we can't have faith in the biblical writers.

Let's be specific with this, okay? Because a lot of people use the word faith incorrectly.

There you go. Your faith is the idea of trust. I mean, I put trust in this chair, so what do

I do? I put my full weight on it. My feet are up in the air right now. My hands are up. I'm putting all my weight on that.

Now I can do that because I've recently lost about 35 pounds, and so I can trust it a little more. But the reality is if you put faith in a wrong thing, if this chair was half broken apart and I lean on the arm and it falls out,

I've put trust in the wrong thing. So faith is the idea of putting trust in something.

It's not a blind trust. When we refer to faith, a lot of people refer to it as what they refer to as a blind faith.

In other words, you're putting trust in something with absolutely no evidence supporting. I have reason to believe this chair can support my weight.

Why? Well, for one thing, it's done it many times before. I've sat in this hundreds, if not thousands of times before.

I know how chairs work, and so I can look at it and realize that once I put it together, it was going to support the weight.

There's reasons based on things that I've observed where I can trust that the chair can hold my weight.

But putting trust in an ORCloud or putting trust in Q, when we have no evidence for it, there's nothing that refers to this, nothing that we see that supports that the arguments are other than the conclusion you need to have, that's different.

That's what we call blind faith. And that's more what you're referring to. So there's a difference between faith and blind faith.

Absolutely. And the thing is, you have to think about it. When you come up with a rescue device such as the, you know, it's

ORCloud or Q, when you come up with a rescue device, you have to ask why.

Why are you in need of this rescue device? Now, admittedly, everybody has one somewhere.

We all have one somewhere. But when you're talking about a rescue device that is blind faith and you're going

ORCloud, why do we need an ORCloud? Because this comet can't last more than 100 ,000 years.

We see the cycle comes through, you know, and you go, okay, so why do we have all these comets?

Oh, there must be a comet generator. And so there's your ORCloud. Because you don't have to accept the millions of years.

Exactly. Yes, you have to have the millions of years. So in order to have it, you got to say we've got a comet generator.

And it's out so far that no one has ever identified it or seen any inkling of it.

Correct. It's beyond the reaches of the galaxies. It's, you know, it's past any known possible ability for us to even see it in the universe.

So where's the evidence for it? Well, it's a rescue device. And you're right. Jason does a great job talking about that, you know, when it comes to ORCloud as that is a rescuing device.

But the thing is, is a rescuing device is so persuasive to someone who doesn't want to look at the other argument with equal validity.

Yeah, so let's do this. I'm going to do this, even though we do want to talk about where Justin Peters and I were at last week.

We were at the Kenneth Copeland, as Justin says, the Southwest Unbelievers Conference.

It's the Believers Conference. But before we get to that, and Justin may be coming in second hour. Since David is here, why don't

I bring him in? He's asking the question, what evidence would you accept for an ORCloud? So let's bring him in. We've had him in before.

Some of you guys may remember him. David, welcome. Want to be able to kind of discuss this for a little bit.

This isn't the, you know, and you've said you'll come back on when we do. If we do have

Jason in, that would be a fun discussion, maybe. But welcome to the program. Well, thank you so much for having me on.

It's great to be back. I must say that I love talking with you guys. And I always have a good time.

And I hope you have a good time with me as well. So, yeah, I do want to challenge a little bit about the

ORCloud. Before you get to the challenge, a quick update. Where are you at? How are things going? Oh, things are going great.

So I confirmed my enrollment. I'm going to the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, starting the fall.

I am majoring in biochemistry and molecular biology. My passion is in evolutionary biology, viruses, stuff like that.

I love virology and immunology. So these things are great. And I'm also really interested in astrophysics and astrobiology as well.

And one of the professors at UMBC is doing work on astrophysics.

So I connected with her. And I might try and do a double dip in interdisciplinary science in biology and astrophysics.

Really fun stuff. That is. I got to pull this up. What do you got to pull up?

Facebook user. I tell you, I love Facebook users. He or she has got great stuff put on there.

When you say it, if people want to have their name show up in the comments, what you have to do is go to ProjectsLive .com.

There is instructions on how on Facebook you have to give permission. You have to get your name.

David, you're breathing way too heavy into your microphone. Sorry. Is this any better? I actually bought a new microphone recently.

It's coming in loud. My guess is if you see how I have my microphone and my voice is going across it, unlike the way that my camera has it.

My microphone, is this any better? My microphone is attached to my headset. So I'm trying to.

When you're breathing, if it's too close, it's good to have it close. But when it's close, if you don't have sound covering it, sometimes when you breathe it, you get the

Darth Vader. Oh, yeah. All right.

Is this any better? Yeah, that sounded good. We'll have to wait to hear how you breathe, though. Okay. So Facebook user,

I actually understand a little. I didn't get this at all. I got the Captain Picard reference.

I don't get the Q reference, but he said, I thought Q was an arrogant, omniscient guy who annoyed

Captain Picard all the time. So Q on the

Star Trek, one of them. I think Voyager, I think it was. I don't know. He would show up all the time, and he was like.

James White will correct me if I got that wrong. Trust me. He was like a, I don't know what you call it.

He's like a demigod type thing that can just do whatever he wants, and he just shows up and harasses people.

Okay. There you go. I call that Anthony Svestra. Okay. But he's not here, so we could, you know.

All right, David. So go for it. All right. Sure. So the question that I obviously have for you is, what evidence would you actually accept for an

Oort cloud? We have comments that are very long, very long periods, over 1 ,000.

I think one, I'm not sure. I think one might be actually 10 ,000 years or longer.

So the obvious question that we have to ask is, where are these very, very, very long period comments coming from?

Where are they originating from? They are obviously very, very, very far away from the sun in order to have 1 ,000 plus year orbits.

So it is logical to assume that they must be coming from either very, very far out in the

Kuiper belt or even further in the Oort cloud. So I guess for me, the biggest evidence for the

Oort cloud is these very, very, very, very long period comments that we obviously have to account for.

Okay. So the first question is, how do you know? Let me ask you all the questions.

You probably won't be able to answer them all, but these are the questions I'm thinking. One, how do you know that the orbits are 1 ,000 years?

Because we haven't lived that long enough to have someone observe that same climate.

We didn't have the technology to do that. The second thing I'd say is, how do you know that they're millions of years old?

We can measure, right? We have a comet that comes by, what is it, every 76 years?

Yeah, Halley's comet. Yeah, Halley's comet. We're able to measure its size every time it passes through.

So we can, from that, deduce how much smaller that comet is coming when it's coming around us each time, right?

Because we have the technology within the 100 years to be able to measure stuff like that. So we can actually, and every year it comes by, we can measure it better.

With that, we can see, we can do the calculations to see how long Halley's comet is going to be around, right?

But when we say that comets were thousands of years, okay, millions of years, all right, we have to have a way of measuring that.

It assumes the size, what would be one, right, because if it's decreasing in size, you either have to assume that it was much, much larger, it was going through space, which does present a problem because if it is larger, it's going to get pulled into a gravitational pull of something like the sun, or you would assume that the universe wasn't that old.

And so the first question I guess I'd have for you is, you know, how do you know that these are thousands of years old?

And the second one is, how do you know that the universe is really that old by the comets?

That's a great question. And so I'm going to kind of in typical Jewish fashion answer this with a question, and that is what...

You are Jewish, right? Yeah. Yeah. So what evidence would you accept?

So what evidence would you accept? Yeah, the evidence

I would accept is an actual Oort cloud. Okay, so... Why do we accept the black hole?

Because we've been able to demonstrate them, right? Right, of course. So let me ask you a question.

If a team of astronomers were able to definitively prove that an

Oort cloud exists via observation in that cloud, would that force you to accept millions of years?

No. Well, that would... Well, no, it's a fair question. I'm sorry. No, no, it is a good question, but let me jump in and answer that.

And I'm going to say emphatically no, because what you're saying is there's an Oort cloud, there's an if, that if this is proven, there's an

Oort cloud. And I'm going to say no, that's not going to change my understanding of God or anything else.

And here's why. Because God creates everything with age, in the appearance of age and time.

Okay, so when God made the first tree, he didn't make it from a seed or a germ and then have it become a tree, a seed, and then have it grow into a poplar tree or oak or whatever else.

He made it with its age and its time. You ask the question, where do these stars and everything else come from?

When God made the universe, he made it perfectly in time the way he wanted it. He didn't make it saying, oh, it's going to start like a winding clock that's brand new, that's never had a moment of unwinding.

He made it in time. So everything is working from God's point of view, from God's vantage, the way he wanted it, and it all is working perfectly.

Peter tells us in the scriptures that everything was made, and we don't take into account that God made it to look the way he wanted it to look.

He made Adam and Eve, for example, and he made them as, we don't know how old, let's say 14, let's say 16, whatever you want to call it.

Maybe they're 30, who knows? But they were adults. They could procreate.

They could have children. They were adults. They could live a life. And we see that according to the scripture.

All the animals, they weren't, you know, the question, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? It was definitely the egg.

We all know that. It was scrambled. I didn't know if anybody was listening or not.

I just had to throw it in. See, I'm just making sure you're listening.

But think about it. He makes everything with the appearance of time and age. So that wouldn't change my understanding of what

God is doing. So go ahead. Let me answer your question, David, but I'm going to counter a little bit of what

Pastor Justin said, because some people use this argument when it comes to starlight theory. And there's a problem.

Go ahead, Dave. Yeah. So, yeah, I think if I wanted to respond to Pastor Justin real quick.

So basically, Pastor Justin, I want to make sure I'm representing you fairly and accurately. Basically what you're going to be saying is that no evidence would be sufficient to convince you that ultimately the

Bible is the ultimate standard and any evidence of an old earth or an old universe would be the appearance of age.

Am I understanding you correctly? I just wanted to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

So you're asking me if the scripture is the ultimate standard without any other standard above it?

Basically, I just wanted to say, basically you're saying no evidence would ever convince you of millions of years, basically.

You would have to show me a standard above the standard of scripture. All right. And that is fair. I respect that.

Thank you for clarifying. Let me get to answering your question as well, if I could.

And I do want to just address what Justin said, because a lot of people will say that when it comes to stars, the star light that we can see from earth, that the idea is that the star light was created, that God created the universe with the appearance of age.

And therefore the star light is there. One of the problems with that argument that people have is when

God does create with the appearance of age, did God create trees, even though they might've been fully grown?

Did they have, you know, several rings in them or just one ring? Well, we want, we don't know, but the star light becomes an issue of if God created a light from a star that didn't actually exist, that I think would be a problem, you know, be, you know, we can see stars that die out and yet they're millions of light years away.

So that argument, at least for star light, I wouldn't. Yeah. Right. But you're talking about the expanse.

You're talking about the expanse. Yeah. I mean, there's different things with that. And if I can jump in real quick,

I think that's where it would put Dr. Lyle's convention into play because when we basically, from what

I understand, I want to make sure I'm understanding Dr. Lyle's convention is that when we see stars from 13 billion light years away, when we see them go supernova, it happened when we observed it and not 13 billion years ago, basically.

Well, not when we observed it. I just wanted to make sure I understand. We observed it, but it happened at some time in the past, but he would say less than six to 10 ,000 years ago.

It's not instant, although he might hold to. So Dr.

Lyle's view is that the only thing we can measure the speed of light is the round trip speed of light.

In other words, you have point A and point B. There's no way to measure that because the way we can measure light is you have one point with a mirror on it and you shoot a light from the mirror to the mirror and it comes back and we can only test or measure the time it takes for that light beam to get to the mirror and come back to us.

And so that's the round trip. And so his view is that the speed may not be constant.

In other words, when the light is going away from us, it may look like it is taking longer to travel, but when it comes toward us, it's faster.

Therefore, it might be almost instantaneous. Now, so he's with that.

What could be implied is David is saying is that the death of the star looks to be instantaneous.

You know, it's when it's happening. He would say it was sometime in the past, how far in the past. That's what we don't know.

It depends how fast the light does take time to travel to us when it's facing toward us. We just can't measure that.

So you put up this comment, Dr. Jason Laws. Yeah. Same thing you were talking about. That's why.

Okay. So I want to get to what you were asking, though, that Justin didn't answer.

What would I accept it? Would if we found an Oort cloud, would that prove millions of years?

I would say it wouldn't. Now, I mean, I am going to argue that we cannot do science without God first existing.

Okay. And when we talk about this realm of evidence, it presupposes there has to be

God, even if you don't believe in God. And David, you and I, we've talked about this in the past, but we have new listeners.

So if you can indulge me a little bit to explain this, even though I know you're familiar with it. Is that okay? I'll go right ahead, please.

I think it's important for you guys to explain it. Yeah. Because we always have new listeners, new audience coming in.

So we always want to make sure we explain things, not just take that for granted. So the thing is, is that when we use things like you and I right now, we're having a conversation.

We're using words. We can interpret those words. You and I both have an ability to reason.

When we're using the words, we're going to employ that reason. We're going to employ knowledge.

We're going to employ things that are immaterial to us.

So we have a material world. And if you're an evolutionist, depending on the type of evolutionist you might be, you would hold generally to that, this material world is all we have.

And therefore, everything's a product of the mind when we talk about truth and knowledge and ability to reason and laws of logic and morality, all these things,

I would say are immaterial and require an immaterial source. Now, if you say that they're material, one of the things, and David, you and I have never discussed this, but it'd be an interesting thing for you, see what your thought is.

Nowadays, people, the big thing is that people are discussing that you can have someone that is biologically born male, but they identify as female.

Out of curiosity, would you, not saying that this is you in any way, but do you accept or do you believe that people who are born biologically male or female, either one could be, can actually be a different gender by how they identify?

Do you hold to that belief? I'm curious. Sure. I would rather talk about that some other time because I think that is a very important discussion to have.

But in short, I would say this as a person studying the biology, is that biological sex and gender is not binary.

We know this because with the sex chromosomes, there is actually a poor difference.

In high school, you're typically taught, okay, males have an XY chromosome and females have an XX chromosome.

But we know that this isn't always the case. We know that sometimes a person with a female type could have an

XY chromosome and a male could have two X chromosomes. We also know

XXY, XXX, XYY, and others, chromosomal anomalies.

And we do know often, sometimes, the genitalia as well is ambiguous.

And in fact, it's often goes through several times. But... Yeah, I mean, those are the exceptions.

We don't want to define things by an exception, right? By anomalies. I felt like it was important to get this out of the way.

So, the point I'm making is the first point is that biological sex isn't as black and white as people want to make it out to be.

And I'm sure you would accept that intersex people do exist and that it does happen.

No. So, what's really interesting... Give me one minute while I pull up a study real quick.

Yeah, so here's the reason I bring this up. What you have people doing is when the biology...

We have male and female. When people say they identify opposite to their chromosomes.

Now, I know appealing to the exceptions, okay, there are anomalies, mutations that occur.

But those are mutations. They're not actually passed on through the genetics.

It's an anomaly that happens. So, you have someone that has an XX chromosome or an

XY chromosome. They would not be able to identify anything other than their biology.

And so, when you say that someone is identifying different than their biology, the only way they could do that is by something outside of...

It's a non -material thing. And that is that spirit, that soul, that immaterial thing that we have.

Now, that is in a way that we can end up seeing that people who deny that God exists end up appealing to it.

One of the things I do find interesting is everyone... And we don't want to go on to this tangent, but I'll just wrap this up and say that I do find it interesting that people who tend to say that well, they're born looking like a male.

They really are female. What do they end up doing when they say that there's no genders? There's no binary genders.

I do find it interesting that all the males end up getting sex changes and things to make themselves look female.

If there truly were no genders, they wouldn't really bother with that because there is no gender binary.

They would just say they're female. So it's just an interesting thing. But the point of that is that we have an immaterial world that requires an immaterial source and that source would be

God. Now, once we start appealing to things like our ability to reason, laws of logic, truth, knowledge, morality, these immaterial things, once we appeal to those things, once we start trying to do science and talk about the evidence, we already have to preassume this immaterial source giver,

God. And so that would be the argument I would have why I wouldn't be convinced by some of the evidence.

Now, could the evidence be if you say, well, the evidence shows millions of years? Well, the issue is the evidence says millions of years.

It's really the interpretation of evidence compared to what God who was actually there said. There's only one scientific record that we have for the creation of the universe.

It is the book of Genesis. God who was there, who created it and can recreate it, he recorded it, that is the scientific method.

It was observed, it was created, it was reported. And so Samuel Clay is saying the facts don't care about your feelings, quote from Ben Shapiro.

But now, to the question that you had asked, will, if we find an oort cloud, would that convince me of millions of years?

That would convince me that there is an, a, if there was an oort cloud, that would convince me that there is an explanation to how comets and blue stars could last more years, more than millions of years.

Right? Does that in its, in and of itself prove millions of years?

No. It, it gives it, it gives an explanation for how comets. So I guess the reason that your, your question, the issue

I have with the question is that the, you're, you're asking us a very special or, you know, specific thing with the oort clouds is dealing with comets and blue stars and it doesn't answer the universe, it only answers the blue stars and comets.

Right. So I guess I guess a more further question would be, I, I just wanted to make sure that I can actually meet, so I want to make sure that I can actually give evidence that you would accept and evidence that you would actually would be interested in talking about that way.

I can know what to actually show. So the question, obviously, goes back to the original question, what do

I have to show in order to prove millions of years, so to speak? Yeah, you'd have to show evidence that an oort cloud exists.

Okay, so that's number one. Okay, number two. This would be the difference of the confirmation bias scenario, right?

Because, like with the Q, we don't have, Q doesn't exist, we have no historical evidence

Q existed, there's no document, you know, even if it was called a different name, there's no references to it.

It's assumed to have existed because of what they're trying to prove, right? So you're, you, it's a begging the question of a certain fallacy.

The same would be in the case, I think, with an oort cloud, where what you're doing is, you, you, we have a dilemma, we're trying to answer the dilemma, so what do we do?

We have a, as, as Justin said, a rescuing device, he got that from Jason Lyle, those, yeah, it's what he refers to it as, to save the argument.

Now, the issue with it is, you, you have to assume in this several things, and so the question is, what are we assuming in it?

We're assuming that, you know, for one, comets can't last more than several millions of years.

We're assuming that the universe is billions of years old. Now, the only, if, if those two things are true, then there has to be something to generate more comets, thus an oort cloud.

Now, we don't have evidence of an oort cloud, we don't, we haven't had observable evidence of it.

So, it is something we imply from the accepted views, but that's the confirmation bias, right?

Because if we, if we reject the millions, the billions of years of the universe, then comets lasting millions of years is not very difficult, right?

It's, it's, it is the easiest solution, it's that the easiest solution is generally the right one.

So, right. So, so I guess that brings back the points and should be noted, of course, that observing objects that far away is deeply problematic.

It's extremely difficult. I mean, it took us a very long time to be able to discover stuff in, even in the hyper palettes for discovering objects.

How long, how long did it take us just to get a satellite, you know, out of our solar system?

Right, exactly. I mean, it's, you know, so yeah, it is difficult and I'm not excusing that, you know, and, and even with, and I know we're going to, we're going to try to wrap this up in a couple minutes because we do want to get to the topic we had.

I want to, I don't want people to accuse me of clickbait saying that we're going to talk about sun and never talk about it. We're all here to answer questions.

So that's what we do. But, but, you know, it is on where even Dr. Lyle admits that with his theory of starlight, the issue is it's, he even says that it's in a sense convenient in the sense that there's no way to prove that he's wrong, right?

So that's what we do in science is that we come up with a hypothesis and we can't prove it wrong. You can't prove it wrong because there's no way to measure the one -way speed of light.

Now, that makes it convenient and admittedly so. It's convenient because there's no way to disprove it.

But it's unfalsifiable. It's unfalsifiable. But the other thing is it also means it's unprovable.

Right. Exactly. And one of the things that I take issue with Dr. Lyle and Dr.

Lyle's theory here is that why should we believe that light behaves differently in different directions?

I suppose that's number one. And number two, Dr. Lyle's convention, so to speak, makes the math far more difficult than the standard convention.

So basically, if we want to take Occam's razor, well, his convention, so to speak, makes the math far more difficult.

And that's why in science, we measure things using the metric system rather than the imperial system because it's so much easier mathematically.

Yeah. So let me do... There were two things and one I already forgot. So... That makes it a whole lot easier mathematically.

The one thing you said you disagree with, Dr. Lyle, because this...

You know, I'm trying to think how you first worded it. The first thing you had said. So is there any reason to believe that light behaves radically different in two different directions?

Let me ask you a question on that. Does light behave different based on gravity?

That I'm not quite sure. I know it differs based upon... I know it differs based on the medium that you're going through.

It travels slower in liquids than it does in a perfect vacuum. Yeah. And yeah.

There are things that affect it, right? I mean, that's what I'm trying to point out. So when we look at that, we do know that there are things that can affect it.

Now, here's the other thing, just to consider. You're saying it goes against the calculations and principles that we have.

Okay. I can agree with that. It does. But, you know, when you had someone look into, you know, a telescope for the first time and say, hey, look at all the stars going around.

Guess what? The Earth is not the center of the universe. Our solar system has the sun at the center.

People disagreed with it. Why? Because the math didn't work yet. Right? And so it took people saying, wait a minute, let's change our preconceived ideas and then work the math.

And they were able to work out a system that was true. So just because the math works for it, in a sense, because we can force the math.

If we have a confirmation bias, we force the math to work. Just like, you know, I'm saying that this co -host over here is really

Steve from Italy in 1915. The reason I can allow something to work to make it true.

If he says he doesn't look that old, I'm just going to say, maybe he found the founder of youth or, you know,

I can't say that it's just, he's got good skin or something like that. He's really handsome. That's what it is. That's not going to be the case.

And I think even David will agree with me on that. David and I can come to agreement there. Anyway, I want to make sure that you guys get back to the original show.

Thank you for having me in. And I'm going to keep listening backstage. After the show, we should, because I know we wanted to talk about Noah's flood and a couple other subjects as well.

So I think, I know way back when we were talking about doing a discussion with the flood and all of that.

But anyway, thank you so much for having me back on. I really enjoyed the conversation. It's always a pleasure, David, having you in.

I'll put you backstage so you can keep listening. And yeah, I mean, I just came back from the

Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter. So maybe we should talk that right now. I was going to ask a question and Ron Hughes already, or make a comment and Ron Hughes already put it into the comments here.

Light is both a particle and a wave. So gravity per Einstein affects light.

That's actually one of the things I was referring to when I was asking the question. It's always kind of funny because, you know, does light have mass?

It's a trick question, right? When we're talking about matter and the material immaterial, right?

Light as a particle has mass to it, but as a wave, it does not. Light is a very, it's a really neat thing because it's just so complex.

It just shows you some of the stuff of God's creation. So we've had people complaining and whining and pouting and you know who it is that's leading the charge,

Captain Obvious. That's Captain America. Oh, that's right. So can we finally get to the

Unbelievers Conference stuff? I guess, you know, I had some, you know, originally

I had some stuff up here that I was going to do some stuff in the news, but let's get that.

So we were at, Justin Peters and I went to, now we went undercover.

Let me just share something here real quick so you guys can see us undercover because that's going to become necessary.

Here we are. There we are undercover so that no one can recognize us.

I don't know. I don't think anybody would ever recognize Justin and that. Yeah, that's us with Kenneth Copeland.

You know, so just so you know, we were actually there. That's us.

So we have, I have some other pictures I can share. Is that, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

The cardboard cut out. Pull that out. Okay, wait, wait. Is that, is that Copeland?

Oh, no. That is us. Oh, man. Look at those guys. And I was undercover and the glasses.

You can't tell who we are with the glasses on. There's, there's us walking in. There's Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. Justin does not stand out there with his, his, what

I nicely call his throne of pride. If you don't know why I call him that, it's because he sits on a scooter that's made by a company called pride.

So, but we got some pictures. There's, there's Copeland preaching.

Is that what he's doing? Yeah, that's what he's doing. Here's, here's Justin. There he is. Now Justin is sitting in it.

I couldn't get a picture of this, but Justin sat up. So because I'm a pastor, I was able to move up to where pastors are.

And the front seating is, is for pastors.

And then you have, well, I'm going to get to what's right behind the pastors. I think it's interesting. But Justin came up with me and wheeled himself all the way up in front of all the, where the pastors are.

So he is sitting perpendicular to all the, to all the attendees. So every time the speakers are walking back and forth, when they come back toward Justin, they're looking right at him.

I thought that was kind of classic. Now I hear, this was really interesting.

We went to lunch and here's a, I do like this. Someone, someone got paid for lunch and he, he had the waitress write this.

The waitress wrote this on the bill. Can you see that? Here, let me blow it up a little bit. Sorry, Justin, I win.

Oh man, it's not me. That was actually a guy, Paul, who bought both of us lunch just to, to win against Justin.

So I'm glad that others are blessing Justin. So this is just for fun. Okay. Justin, do you get this?

This is for people to take a photo. Yeah. This is the word victory without the eye.

So you can stand there and take a picture. They take a picture of you and you can be the eye in victory.

Wow. Yeah. Okay. So, so yes, what passage is that? There's the picture of what us with Kenneth Copeland dressed as a,

I don't know, Southern Southwest. So that's the one I'm asking about. That's what I was asking. Was that really him?

I think so. As a much younger man, as a much, much younger man.

Oh, I forgot. Someone did send us, someone did send us a picture of, of Copeland that they took.

This is really good. They got, they were able to get up close to Copeland. And so here's a picture of them.

The only thing worse than a, than a wolf in sheep's clothing is a wolf in shepherd's clothing.

Yeah, there you go. So that's, that was, Oh, Chris, Chris hit it right on the head.

He says, he says, so he's a phony pastor and a phony cowboy. Now the thing was, you know, we were, they were doing interviews, testimonies.

So you could be on Kenneth Copeland ministries. So you can be shown on TV. We're hoping

I, something tells me this won't air, but there it is. They actually interviewed Justin.

They had, they really was. And, and he being typical, Justin did not hold back in explaining the differences in the gospel message.

Classic, Justin Peters. But so, so here's the thing that I thought interesting. Before we get into some of the stuff right in, in that section where they have all the exhibits,

I got something and this was the most useful thing I got from the conference. Yeah, that's right.

Hand sanitizer. Oh really? Copeland ministries. No. Okay. Does anyone find the irony in this for those folks who don't know who

Kenneth Copeland is? Kenneth Copeland is a word of faith teacher. He's a, one of these guys that says that he can heal everybody or that everyone can be healed.

And as long as you have enough faith, he blames it on you if you're not healed. But he ended COVID, right?

He ended COVID. He blew it away. He cast judgment on it. COVID is over.

It's done. Why does he have hand sanitizer? That's giving away.

Like, I mean, I want to know who had the bright idea going, Hey, let's give out hand sanitizer as a, as a thing for people to come up to the booth.

Don't you realize if you have the faith to get rid of disease, what in the world do you need hand sanitizer for?

Especially since COVID is gone. According to, to Copeland, he got rid of it a year ago.

Okay. So now what also I thought interesting is right behind the pastors was a separate section.

The separate section was for the deaf. Now, I don't know if they paid the person to do the sign, sign, hand, the sign language, or if it's a volunteer, but they did have a specific section for the deaf with a person doing sign language.

Now, again, this is, this is just comical. You have a section for the deaf.

Why don't you just heal them and move on? Fix them and let's go on. You know, just be like, they're done.

Yeah. I mean, it's, this is some of the stuff you find very interesting. Now I will, I will. What is it?

Oprah Winfrey does. I got, I gotta do this. You get a healing and you get a healing and you get a healing.

Everybody gets a healing. Yeah. I mean, so, so Cindy here says that referring to Copeland, he blew, he blew

COVID or referring to Copeland. He blew COVID away straight to Bethel healing class.

Oh yes. They got COVID and shut down. That's kind of, I didn't know that, but I can't picture their healing class shut down for COVID.

Wow. All right. So this is the thing you end up seeing is this is what some of the things that show you it's a sham.

Okay. And we're going to, I want to get into what they taught and, and then

I'm going to tell you some, some cool experiences that we had there. But one of the things I see just going to an event like this, what you end up seeing is you see that the leaders do not believe what they actually teach.

Now, how do I know this? Well, for one, wear glasses. Well, I posted a picture of Dennett of Duplantis, Jesse, who was, he was carrying his glasses.

Let me see if I, you said, you said something like, I said, what's wrong with this picture?

He's got a pair of glasses like this the whole time he's talking and I'm just sitting there.

And, and these people around me are like, Oh, whooping and hollering. And I remember I turned to the guy next to me and I asked, isn't it funny?

He's got a pair of glasses when he was talking about healing. The thing with Duplantis is he came out and his voice was really hoarse.

And he, he said, that's because we've been whipping it to the devil. And he, you could go online and see the

YouTube channel. You could see the videos. He's his voice is hoarse. He actually says, he, I know I'm supposed to be doing a, a, you know, a book signing.

But at the end he says this, he says, but I'm going to let my voice rest. Why? Just like the post, just put up blind man and heal yourself.

I mean, physician heal thyself. If you have the faith, you claim you have, why in the world do you have glasses?

Never trust a faith healer that wears glasses. He not only has glasses, but he had a, a, a sore throat.

His voice. Why not just heal it? Why do you need to let it rest? And I asked the guy, like the guy, one guy was like, you know, when he goes, you know, we're going to whip it, we're whipping it up for the devil.

This is what happened to me three times in my life. And the guy goes, yeah, that's right. And I turn, I'm like, why doesn't he just heal it? Right. I mean, doesn't that make more sense?

Just heal it. And then, and then you don't have to make excuses for your voice. Now the, one of the other people we heard was

Creflo dollar, who explained that when he was going through his battle with cancer and he went to the

MRI and in the MRI, the doctor is showing the MRI and he stops it. And there was a face of a man with a beard.

And that was his confirmation that he was going to be healed from cancer. Um, how did he get cancer?

Right. Right. I mean, if he had the faith that he claims he has, why did he bother going to the doctor in the first place?

Just heal it. He claims that people, others can do that. And he asked people to give money to him to do that, but he can't do it for himself.

and so David in the background is saying, so confirmation bias, he also says, Kenneth Copeland is a fraud.

He is a fraud. And that is a sign of confirmation bias, right? They, they look at this and they, I mean, it's amazing that even when you know, you have them right in the face of realizing now, no,

I admit Creflo dollar didn't pick up on what he was saying when he's talking several times about his battle with cancer.

That took months. But at least Duplantis picked up on the fact that his sore throat, he goes, he goes,

I believe at one point he goes, I believe in a God that heals. Even if my throat sounds like this, he recognized that it was a contradiction, right?

Now, here's the other thing. The other one that I heard speak was, was Kenneth Copeland.

Now here was the thing. I don't think I ever would have noticed. Had I not been there and seen the big screen and been right up front there, but I believe

Kenneth Copeland wears hearing aids. So the way I saw that was if I saw the glimmer of light that hit, it looks like it's an inner hearing aid where the bulk of it goes in your ear.

And sometimes they have something just a little clear plastic comes around. I don't think, I think he has the one that goes completely in the ear.

The reason being is if you look in someone's ear, if I, if I could turn,

I see I'm not close enough to it, but if you turn on the side, you, you, you'll see in someone's ear, you see depth to it.

And he didn't have that. It was just straight. It was flat. That's not the way you'd have.

And I looked at each other speaker after him to see that each one of them had the depth. I believe Kenneth Copeland wears hearing aids.

If that's the case, well, physician, heal that stuff.

I don't believe a word of faith. Preacher that wears hearing aids. Now, here's the interesting thing.

Why bring this up? I, I said, after this event, this is why Justin Peters is Batman and I'm Robin.

Okay. He says, they like, we go to lunch. Here's, here's what happens at lunch. We go to lunch.

We're sitting there and we're trying to have conversations. We're trying to hand out gospel tracks.

And we were with another guy who just, he was, he was like, I'm in the wrong lead here. He was just sitting, watching the two of us.

And we're trying to give out as many gospel tracks as we can, but there was differences in them.

I will admit, I, I am not, I'm not Justin Peters. Okay. I, I'm just not that bold.

He is the spiritual. he's the man. Yeah. Sitting there and walking up to people.

I see a guy that has a shirt that says, uh, death couldn't hold him down. And so I said, who's he?

That guy goes, he goes, Jesus. I said, what?

So if, if death can hold him down, how did he rise? And the guy goes,

I don't know. And his girlfriend goes, well, how would you answer that? I said, God, he,

Jesus rose himself from the dead. There you go. I got into a conversation with him and I said, listen, tell me something.

Can you tell me how to get to heaven? And he goes, Jesus. And he's got this big smile on his face, Jesus. And I said, well,

I don't want to offend you, but I grew up Jewish. I grew up believing that Jesus Christ is

Hitler's God. Jesus Christ represents the Holocaust, the inquisitions and the crusades. I want nothing to do with that murder of my people.

How do I get to heaven again? And the guy just looked at me and goes, I don't know what to say other than Jesus.

As if that's the gospel, Jesus. There you go. Because that's what they say at Kenneth Copeland's thing.

Jesus is Lord. That's all they say. And so I said, well, here's how

I would explain it. And so what I did was I went through the gospel and I did this with several people. I would just explain the gospel to person after person saying, well, this is how

I would do it. I'd go through the law and the gospel and explain how we broke God's law. We're sinners in his, in his sight because he's infinitely

Holy. It has an infinite consequence. And because of that, we could never pay it, but we need an infinite

God being infinite. He can pay an infinite fine being a man.

He can pay a fine for men. That's what makes Christ unique because he's infinite God and man.

He can pay that fine. He's the only one that could do it. I get into explaining how there we can have a

God who's both just and merciful because now you have the justice paid at the cross. Now we can have the mercy offered.

So I get to explain the gospel that we have to turn from trusting ourself as a good person or our good works and turn and trust what

Christ did. Now Christ makes sense. Now we understand our need for Christ.

So I explained all that to him and he was like, wow, I'd never heard that before. And his girlfriend just kind of grabs him by the arm and pulls him away.

I did have a good conversation with a guy who was just doing a door dash while he was waiting for the food. And I gave him my email address and I'm hoping to be able to communicate with him.

He's, he's talking, he, you know, he was like, you know, I really want to talk more. And so there's some positive there now,

Justin, why do I say Justin's Batman? Because I'm doing the more coy thing. I'm like, Hey, let me tell you how

I share the gospel, right? Here's Justin's opening line. He goes, he says to me, he goes,

I want to go over and talk to that, that couple. I'm like, okay. So he goes over and he just walks up, he goes, or rolls up really.

Cause he doesn't walk and he goes, he's like, Oh, so have you come to the conference before?

Now, this is by the way, the guy that was sitting right next to this, you know, right next to me in the, in the sessions in one of the sessions, the one, the wife pulled away.

No, no, this is, this is, so when we were at the conference, I was sitting in the pastor section. So this pastor that I was sitting next to, we see at lunch.

So we know he was at the conference. Okay. He's not the same one that I was talking about with Jesse Duplantis, cause that was the next day.

But this pastor, Justin rolls up to him and his wife. And he says, so have you been to these conferences before the guys?

The wife goes, we're partners. Okay. So that means he, they're financially supporting him. Oh, and he goes,

Oh, okay. And so the, the husband says, so do you, uh, have you been to these before? He goes, Oh, I haven't been to them for a while.

And so here's Justin's opening line. Ready? He goes, so what do you say about me? The fact that I'm in this wheelchair, no, no beating around the bush.

Oh man. Right for it. Let's get right to the heart of the issue. And I'm like sitting there just my focus is the gospel, right?

Which is the problem. These people believe they know the gospel. No, he goes right for it. What do you explain me being in this, in this wheelchair?

And the guy says, and Justin said to me afterwards, he was glad the guy was honest. The guy says, you don't have enough faith.

Now he told Justin that Justin, that he said, you just don't have enough faith.

Now here's the thing. Justin is, is, you know, he's good in apologetics, right? So what does he do? He, he takes things like I teach people, get some information upfront, store it away, come back to it later.

Well, that's what he does. He gets, he gets right. Chris on holds goes, yeah, straight for the jugular.

That's right, Chris. That is exactly what he did. Um, so Kofi is saying

Justin has zero chill on his nice city. Yeah. It's, it's the advantage of being in the, in the scooter he is because people are just, they want to like you, you want to be kind of nice to him.

And yet he just goes for the jugular with that Southern kind of hospitality that he's got that Southern drawl where it just, he says it, but it sounds kind of nice.

So here's what ends up happening. Justin later in the conversation turns and he's, he's talking to the wife, uh, and at one point, and he says, you know,

I noticed that your husband has hearing aids and you're wearing glasses. Now, you know, don't you think that for God to heal like healing your eyesight just to improve it or, you know, your hearing, don't you think that'd be easier for God to heal than cerebral palsy?

Yeah. And it was just, it was hilarious. Like there's no response type of thing.

So what ends up happening? A woman who's sitting there, there were four women that I had hand handed gospel tracks to, uh, and they read them and kind of wanted to get away from me.

And so when I moved to where they, I ended up moving to where they were then standing to talk to this couple that I was talking to.

So they went and sat back down to where Justin was not realizing we were together. I think I, that's my theory.

I'm implying that, uh, Melissa saying Justin Peters is awesome. Uh, Chris on hold says, boom, that's great.

Um, so what you end up seeing is, you know, here's this woman, she buds into the conversation, mistake, mistake, because what she ends up saying is, well,

Kenneth Copeland is a prophet. Oh boy. Justin says, so, um, you know that he got like the prophecy wrong with the election.

He said that Trump would be real, you know, would win the election. And she goes, he did win the election. He goes, okay.

All the, the, the, you know, election fraud aside, Kenneth Copeland predicted that he would be in the white house for a second consecutive term.

And, and that didn't happen. She goes, but it could in the future, you know?

And he goes, but, but it didn't happen. He said it would happen this time. And she was a man can thwart God's plans.

And it was like, he goes, so you're saying that man is so is sovereign over God that man is stronger than God.

And she goes, no, God is, God is superior. He goes, well, you just said man can thwart God's plans.

And she goes, we can, but then if man can thwart God's plans, then man has to be stronger than God.

And she goes, no, God is like, he's trying to use logic and reason with her.

And it is just like her friends are trying to pull her away. And she's like, no, I want to like, she's going to set

Justin straight. Chris is saying confirmation bias, baby.

Exactly. And that's why this is kind of the theme throughout. Right. So there's, you, you picked a good, a good one there.

Ron Hughes says maybe she meant profit. That is the profits that the profiting they do at these things.

Right. It's like the confirmation bias. About the offering, but I don't want to forget the offering, but, but so Justin is going for it and he's like saying, but they prophesied these things and it didn't happen.

And they're not seeing, they want to say God is sovereign yet. They want to give an excuse on how

Kenneth Copeland could be a prophet and be wrong. Cause, cause Justin said that would make him a false prophet and they're like, they basically said, well, there's nothing wrong with that.

And he said, and so Justin reads Deuteronomy to them where it says, you don't, if you say anything wrong, anything that is, is not accurate, you're a false prophet and should be stoned, which they said, well, the new

Testament is different. Prophets are different in the new Testament. So Justin says, we've, you've read the book of Hebrews, right?

And they said, yes. When Hebrews, doesn't it say that everything in the new covenant is better than the old? And they were like, yes.

She says then why in the world would you have prophecy being better in the old covenant than the new covenant?

See, these are the sort of questions that they go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so they were just stuck.

Chris said a minute ago, it's like one of those things that make you go, Hmm. Cause you know, you think about it.

What did, what did Peter and Paul call, what did Jesus call the prophets who prophesied falsely?

It's, it's in the title false prophet. Yeah. The, the real prophets did it perfectly.

Yes. David in the background in the show notes in the, in the backstage is saying, wow, the mental gymnastics are strong with them.

I agree. I also think that the mental gymnastics is strong with some atheists that believe in evolution, David.

And he's going to argue that the mental gymnastics we would do are strong with us. So let's be fair.

Okay. At least he laughed at that. He said, ha ha. Okay. So, uh, and by the way, the, you know, here we got, uh,

Shane, Shane Teal saying, the profit in quotes, the profit you make when you make money got me, got me rolling.

Uh, so, so the thing that was amazing, so Justin is going through this and just from the couple to the four girls to where the three left in was just the one to this other person that came in, just all of them just could not answer, could not see what was right in front of their eyes.

It's, it's sad that, that they would say that the, they can't see that a new Testament profit would be held to the same standard, if not higher than the old

Testament profit. Okay. Oh, Hey, look at that. Chris Honhold says, Hey, Shane Teal goes to my church.

Howdy, Shane. There we go. Look at this apologetics lives, bringing church friends together, bringing people together.

That's our, that's what we do. I think, and Chris, you could correct me if I'm wrong. I think there was something where somehow it was signed on like either on the show we did here or, or my podcast.

I think that, um, somehow someone found Chris's podcast and they go to church with him.

Chris says, give, please give Shane a shout out. He just got baptized. So here's a shout out.

Oh wait, no, that wasn't loud enough. Shane.

Congratulations, Shane. Praise the Lord. I hope you got saved too, but praise the Lord. Back up, back up, back up.

I'm going to just say this for the record. I, I have, I have so much trust in Chris Honholds that he would go to, they would make sure that that is the case beforehand.

Um, all right. So we have, uh, let's see. So question that came up from Facebook user, again,

Facebook user, you know, uh, go to apologeticslive .com, figure out how do we could see your name.

Uh, the instructions are there. Question for Andrew, did the security at the unbelievers convention give you any trouble, uh, given both of your discernment history on word of faith?

Okay. So that was kind of interesting. We walked in timid, both of us kind of walked in and we went and we, we, so what we were supposed to do was make a right turn when we got in and go to the, to the other building where we actually get our name tags or, you know, like show that we registered.

Uh, we didn't do that. We went right in and walked right up front. In which case, there was someone from security that grabbed us and said,

Hey, uh, you know, are you guys pastors? And I said, yes. And they said, well, you need to get your, your badges.

Like I, like this, like, you know, I have, I said, Oh, where do we get that? So we went out and we registered, we got the registration.

Uh, I had to, it was interesting. I had to prove that I was a pastor. Uh, Paul proved that he was and then it was

Justin and I checked in Justin and I, and I said, well, he's in full -time ministry. Oh, can you, you know, can you prove it?

And I'm like, well, we didn't want to give his website. So I just said, that's okay.

We won't give him a badge. I had, I had registered them, but you know, Hey, that's okay. And so, so we, we went in and we were expecting it.

So we of course go in. And now we come in now that we know that the bulk of their security is in the, in that front door section, we came in a side door.

And so I purposely each time came in that side door. Uh, the problem with coming in that side door is they had the best smelling popcorn.

You know how the, the, the, the self -control, I had to resist that it was strong.

Anyway, we came in the side door and they didn't give us a trouble. And the thing that was interesting, they, they, they came up, we're looking for seats.

Seating was hard to find because we had to find two plus where Jessica's sitting and security came up and said, Hey, you know, there's no room for him in the scooter.

I said, well, he's brought it. She goes, there's no seats up here. I said, well, he has his own seat. What they didn't want was

Justin in the scooter up front. And so what happened was, is she's

I'm like, well, you know, she goes, this is for pastors. And I showed the badge and I said, well, we're pastors.

So now she's got this dilemma. So she goes, well, let me go check with the head usher. So there's a guy, she goes to over to check with.

So I turned to Paul and I said, let's go in and there's two seats here. Let's sit. So she goes back and looks for us.

And now we're seated. Justin rolled all the way up front and then parked himself as I showed.

So now we're already seated and he's up front. So they just let him be. And that's where he has when he, in the past that he's gone, when he's gone to this, that's where he has set it up.

And so here's a question we are getting off topic, but a question, what do you guys think of ducks, duck dynasty people?

I can honestly say, I have no idea. I've never watched the show. I don't know any of them personally. So I cannot say anything about it.

I have, you know, I, I can't say that they're saved or not saved cause I've never heard their testimony and don't know enough about them.

So sorry, Scott, I don't have much to say on that. So yeah. So let's talk about the offering.

They did not charge for this conference. So, okay, that's good.

I didn't have to spend my money cause I, that was a real, that was going to be a real challenge for me.

What ends up happening is the, when they do have a love offering, man, I mean, they are not ashamed of boasting.

In fact, they ended up deciding that they were going to show the boat loads of money that people were, that the different speakers were going to receive.

And you guys are going to fill these boats. And then they show these huge, like, you know, cargo holders with all these boxes on it with the name,

Jesse Duplantis on it. And you know, you know, Creflo dollar and all their speakers, you know, you guys, you can send them home with boatloads.

Okay. For just for them specifically. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Cause, cause this was a love offering that was going to them.

It, you know, Ken Colburn said he doesn't receive anything from it, but they all do. And so the thing that, you know, there's a couple of things that were very discouraging, very hard to deal with there.

One was the, the giving knowing that most of these people I'm looking at them and they're, they're, you know, they're, they're putting things in the, in the offering and they're there in shabby clothing.

And I'm looking at these guys all bragging about their suits and thousand dollar suits and whatnot. Just sad.

The other thing that gets me is, is the delusion in this teaching. Now, how do people get into this?

Well, one of the things I noticed now, I will admit, this is the first time that I've heard some of these guys give an entire message.

I can't say sermon. But I did notice some things. There is a definite cadence to their speaking.

All of them did it. And, you know, I noticed that what it is is they go to this high energy talking really fast, mentioning a lot of things and then come down and then high energy and then down high energy and then down.

And, and that does, I mean, we do know that there is things that with the way the mind works, that, that is effective in, in getting people in a subjective thought process.

And what you are seeing there is when, when Copeland first did it, there's a, yeah, Hey, yeah.

Okay. But each time that he's getting to that peak, they're getting to a higher and higher emotional state to where at the end they're jumping up and they're lowering their hands and hooping and hollering.

And I don't even know if they're hearing what he's saying. Adolf Hitler did that. He used to take that cadence up and down.

Correct. Correct. And Shane, Shane says crowd control. Yeah, that's what it is.

Yeah, that's what it is. What it is is they say things that I go, do they really realize what they say? I mean, you know,

Justin Peters was doing his clouds without water seminar. If you're not familiar, you know, let me encourage you to go to justinpeters .org

and, and check out his clouds without water, get that DVD series.

If you want, you can get it from us. If you just let us know what's driving fraternity, we'll, we'll ship it to you, but get it from Justin better because that way the money goes to him.

But if, if you haven't seen that, please go and see the clouds without water DVD, buy it.

And you know, a lot of people go, wow, I watched online. Okay, great. You watched online that saved you money and it supported

Justin in no way whatsoever. So please watch it. Can you go buy the DVD from him? It makes a living.

All right. Here we have someone saying clouds without water is awesome.

So thanks Darren. So what I, you know, he played this clip in clouds, in his clouds without water that he was doing in the, in the seminar of Steven Furtick where Steven Furtick is doing that same thing.

He's in that cadence. He's talking really fast and he's saying things and he says, I am almighty God. Yeah. And he stopped.

I think he actually surprised himself with what he just said. He was just talking really fast and just all of a sudden blurted some out.

I was like, and then what does he do? He doubles down. Like he stopped for a second. Like, Ooh, I just caught myself.

I wasn't supposed to say that. Yeah. The reality is is that do these guys believe this?

Well, Justin, here's here. I was, my plan for today was just to give you a bunch of quotes of the teaching and let you and Anthony respond to them.

But you know, people give Justin a hard time when he says, these guys believe that they are a little

God and they criticize. They don't believe this. Well, they teach little

God doctrine. No, sorry. They don't. They now teach God doctrine. They've dropped the little part.

Okay. Kenneth Copeland says, quote, Jesus. And his whole talk was about the name, the name of Jesus.

Okay. So he said that quote, Jesus inherited his name from almighty

God unquote. So now the way he's going to argue that as Jesus inherited his name from almighty

God, and you inherited your name from Jesus, you figure out what that means, right?

He's going to end up saying that. He says people who die, no

God, but never, but never let them die. So his focus was never let, never let

Jesus die. So I didn't know we had that control. He got into talking about that.

Good Friday was not really good. Friday was really good. Wednesday. Okay. So he backs that those dates up.

It tells us a little bit about that. You can go listen to an episode we did on, on good Friday, what date it was on a previous show here.

But then he said this, Jesus died three days and went to hell where he was born again.

Jesus was born again. He had to, he had to go to hell and be born again in hell.

That's how he got born again. So you could be born again. I'm trying to figure out what that means.

I'm not understanding that. Even David in the background is saying that's major heresy.

You know, an unbeliever like David can recognize this. How do these people not recognize it? It would only be heresy if there is a

God. Come on. Don't pick on him, but I'm picking on him.

I love him. Copeland actually claimed that we are

God. And he emphasized it. He emphasized it by saying that the statement that we, we would get him taken off the radio or that he, cause he said, if I, if I say this, he preps,

I say this, I'm going to be taken off the radio. If I say this, that, and that Jesus made enemies by mocking such a claim.

So in other words, the fact that people mock Kenneth Copeland is the same way people mock

Jesus when Kenneth Copeland claims, he is God, not a little God.

He said, he is God. Okay. So that right there now, it's interesting.

What is, what, how does he claim he's God? Well, he says, quote, whatever

God has is mine. Whatever God has claimed was his.

Now he ended up saying that, that speaking of this name that Jesus gives to us, he said, God elevates

Jesus name above all other things. That means you are going to be elevated above all other things.

Really? He confirmed that the name of Jesus upon us, so he, he gave it to us.

Kenneth Copeland gave us the name of God. Um, you know, so he, he ends up saying, there are words

God spoke when he, when he raised Jesus from the dead. Um, Jesus rose himself from the dead.

Maybe Kenneth Copeland doesn't know that. So you're posting up. Yeah, I'm pulling this up because we, we need to pull this up and refute

Copeland here. I'm sorry, but, uh, John, uh, Jesus said in John 5 43,

I have come in my father's name. You do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you'll receive him.

He is coming in his own name, claiming himself to be God. Yep. I'm sorry.

Jesus was talking about people like Kenneth Copeland. Yep. Now he claimed

David killed Goliath because he had a, he, he had a name.

What? Yeah. See the reason David was able to do that is because he had a name. He could kill

Goliath with his, because he had a name. You can kill whatever Goliath you have because you have the name that Jesus has.

Really? So bad. Oh, don't worry. It gets worse. Oh. He ends up saying he was going through all the names of God and he comes up for the, the, the name for in the old

Testament for God, the God of healing. And he says for, for healing to have part passed away,

God would have to change his name. Now, here's an interesting thing. Again, a logical fallacy, because we don't say that God changed that he, that healing passed away from God.

We say that the God no longer gives the gift of healing. Oops. So someone's asking where's

Justin Peters. We are still waiting for him to get in. Justin was on the show. He was on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you got to hear that episode today, he was on that. He had to leave right from there to head out to Bozeman.

And he was not sure if he can make it. He's been, he said he'd be in hopefully second hour. So we're still waiting for him to get in because we,

I do have a bunch of questions. I want to ask him about this with some of the stuff that came in. The plan was for us to have him on and go through this.

So we're still waiting. Well, you're giving me such a headache. I need a pillow. See you and Bud, you think that you could just, you can transition as well as I, you know, if you listen to the rap report, there was a time where Bud thought he missed it.

He, did you hear that one? The one where he, where Bud thought I missed it? Oh, I know you didn't miss it, but I was just saying, this is giving me a pillow break.

No, no, there's a right time for the pillow. Okay. Okay. Now Chris is going pillow ad time.

We have, there is a spot for that. Okay. It's going to get worse.

So, so the thing with the logical fallacy here, what you have is when we, when we say that God no longer gives the gift of healing, that is different than God still healing.

Even Justin Peters makes it clear in his clouds without water. He makes it clear that God still heals today, but he says that the gift of healing

God doesn't take today. There's a difference. Ron Hughes is saying my pillow is the best ever.

I agree with that statement, by the way, that is the best. Melissa says just a good job,

Justin. So I want to thank you so much. She was just because you share with a spiritual

Batman does not mean, Hey, look, he's my hero. You know that. Yeah. Well, why don't you read what you put up there from Chris?

I don't know what that word says worse because I said, it's going to be worse. Worsel W R S E L.

Oh, is that explanation? Okay. See, I need better glasses. You need a healing.

Okay. Look, look at your screen. I can't,

I can't roll my eyes hard enough with what you shared so far. That's pretty good.

That's pretty good. All right. So he said, it is Christian people.

That he, that, that he, that, I'm sorry. It is Christian people that ties

God to poverty. What? So, so in other words, and that is a lie from the, so he, what he was saying was he was saying that he, in this, the context here, he was saying that people like you and I who believe that we shouldn't be teaching health, wealth, prosperity, that that is what he said literally is a lie from hell.

He says, it is Christian people referring to you and I that tie God and poverty.

And he said, this is a lie from the pit of hell. Well, I, I I'm not sure.

I'm not sure, but I, I believe it's the Bible that said the poor you will have with you always.

Oh wait, it's not even just the Bible. Those are the very words from Christ. Yeah. Jesus said that. I think. What do you know?

I could be mistaken, but I think it's Christ who said, you have nowhere to lay your head.

I can get my eyeballs healed for $200. Hence, hence now.

There you go. This was the spot for a, my pillow head. He didn't have any place to lay his head, but Justin, you can lay your head on a nice, my pillow.

See, if you want to just wait it a few minutes, I had it. It was in the notes. There brother. You got it, man.

I didn't even know you had show notes tonight. I thought we were just, you know, fly by the seat of our pants. Look at that guys.

These are, these are all the notes that I took. I got, I got pages and pages of notes of culture.

I mean, Chris says it's hurting his eyeballs. Chris, I had to take the notes for you.

How are you going to get this great information if I didn't sit there? Actually, the reason I took the notes is because Justin Peter said, because I'm like,

I was not looking forward to this. I was like, this is going to drive me nuts because I can't stand listening.

These guys, I was afraid I was going to shout. I was afraid I was going to shout out. And, and he said, just take notes.

This is research brother. Take notes. All right. So, so let me get to my, my pillow because they support us and we want, we want to support, uh, get you guys supporting them with what it does.

When you support them, you're supporting us getting great products. And I will admit I got a new product,

Justin. I love the pillows. You've known that for years. I just was traveling with Justin. I was in Texas, Fort Worth, Texas, had my pillow with the week.

I just came back from the creation museum and arc encounter had my, my, my, my pillow for the week. I travel with my pillow.

I love it. I absolutely love the three inch mattress topper. I have, I have been super ecstatic with that, but I have tried something new now from them.

I got their new towels. I got their, their hand towels, their bath towels. We even got the bath mat and I got to taste on.

I'm pretty picky when it comes to towels. I, I usually have those really heavy towels cause

I want a towel that's absorbent. I hate these towels that you get and you're, you're washing, you're drying yourself off with it and you're still wet.

I hate that. And I've always, and I, but I hate the heavy towels.

Cause there's, you know, the towel where it's like you pick it up and it's like, you know, you shrink a couple inches when you put it on your shoulders.

So I've always been really picky and I thought I found the towel that I liked that it was made from bamboo is really absorbent.

It was somewhat lightweight. But then I tried the, my pillow towels and I found the ones

I love. I mean, these things are there. I was surprised how light they were. And when I felt them, I'm like, okay, these are so light.

They're not going to be absorbent. And I have to tell you, son, these are the most absorbent towels or any towel

I've ever used. I, I have, you know, we, we ended up getting just, you know, the bath towel on the hand towels and a, but you can get the full set.

They have lots of different colors. I have been, I've been happy with it. It really is absorbent, lightweight.

So if you want to get that or any of the other products, go to mypillow .com, use promo code

SFE that stands for striving for eternity, promo code SFE to get the discounts. Not only do you get a discount on the products, but that tells them that we sent you and they then know that the sport, the more you buy from them, the more that they support us so that we appreciate that.

Not only does it support an American made company but it also supports this show.

And so we appreciate that. Or you can call 1 -800 -873 -0176. That's 800 -873 -0176.

And again, use promo code SFE so that they know you heard about it here. And so that way you have some place to lay your head,

Justin. See, I was, I was ready for it. I was ready for it.

You hadn't, you and Bud have no faith in me. You think that I'm going to forget to do my job.

I can't believe it. All right. So one of the things I realized, a lot of these guys now, I'm going to say this, and I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I told this to Justin.

Kenneth Copeland did the best job out of all the speakers I heard. Okay. Let me point something out.

I'm going to tell you this and I'm going to say this to everybody. It's not that they can't preach.

It's not that they don't know. They know. They can preach, but they love the money more.

I'm going to tell you, the rich young ruler, he knew the truth when Jesus was done, but he loved his money more.

These guys, they love their money. If you listen to, oh, what's his name?

The other guy. If you listen to Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn, I'm sorry. If you listen to Benny Hinn and you listen to him preach the gospel, preach on repentance,

Justin Peters even said it, that that is a saving gospel, but he won't preach it.

He's more concerned about the money and that's what they want. And we could get that because Kenneth Copeland did.

He did explain the crux of the gospel, which is really 2

Corinthians 5 .21. He who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God. And he explained that properly, that Jesus Christ became sin that we can have his righteousness.

Now, then he applied it improperly because he then said that if we have Christ's righteousness, we have everything

Christ has. No, we don't have deity. We don't get that. But one of the things

I found with most of these guys, especially Jesse Duplantis, Jesse Duplantis basically gave the least amount of Bible.

It was more just stories about himself. Did he travel to heaven?

Not while I was there, but he was in the mob. So he gave lots of stories there.

But Kenneth Copeland was talking about his flights and he said, he ended up saying we have to be imitators of God.

He said, quote, to fly, I had to imitate my flight instructor. I wanted to be equal with my instructor, unquote.

And so that we have to want to be equal with God. And then we could be like him.

I wonder if he can fly the airplane without the flight instructor right there. Well, he did.

He talked a lot about his first solo flight. And he said what he had to learn to do is he, you know, he's talking all about this and he said, he's, you know, he had to, he had to just listen to this voice that was in his head that's coming through.

And he had the guys, he had to guide him in because he was, he, you know, he said, Hey, this is my first time flying a solo.

And they realized that and said, okay, we're going to put you on a different path and we're going to guide you in. And he, and he, so he said,

I had to, and this is where everyone started hooping and hollering because he's telling the story and he's at the low point.

Right. And he goes, so I had to listen to that voice that was speaking to me in my head.

And all of a sudden you're like, you're getting, the still small one. Yeah. Oh boy.

Oh boy. So it was funny. Uh, if you could do me a favor, uh, and, and, and just open to acts chapter three.

Okay. Cause I want you to do some reading here. Yeah. What I'd like you to do in, in, uh, acts three, um, five to eight, uh, if you could just, just read a five and six if you could just read that for us.

Okay. And he began to give them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.

But Peter said, I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have,

I give to you in the name of Jesus, the Nazarene walk and seizing of us.

You said five and six, right? So he, and he went on from there, but what his focus was that would, what we could receive when we receive the name of Jesus, we receive everything that Jesus has.

It's really funny. He kind of skipped one part of this silver and gold. I don't have, I have none. He goes, he literally goes, there's a lot

I could say about that, but just skipped right over that. But I'm not going to.

Cause he ended up saying that, um, that Jesus's name can do anything that, that he could do.

Having faith in his name gives you all that he can do. Wow.

Wow. I mean, so what we're hearing is that he became a pilot and he's become a

God. Yeah, basically. Okay, cool. He said the man, now listen to this, the man,

Jesus lives within you. Now here's some problems with that one.

Uh, no, the Holy spirit lives within you. Okay. A man can't live within a man.

His, his human nature that he still possesses, it cannot indwell a human nature. The person of the

Holy spirit is who indwells you. So he was wrong on that. This one's interesting. Justin, do you speak in tongues?

Uh, I speak English and I'm learning, I'm learning, uh, You don't speak the tongues that he would be referring to, right?

Where you speak the gibberish. Here's what he says to you, Justin.

He said, cause he goes, Brother Copeland, I don't speak in tongues.

That's your fault. And he pointed his finger. That's your fault if you don't speak in tongues. Um, yeah.

So Copeland states that, uh, what was lost in at Babel, we can recover that they could not do anything, that they could do anything they imagined and we can restore that and we can do anything we imagine if we speak in tongues.

Now, the interesting thing I put in my notes is Copeland doesn't get that. He admits that Babel was a judgment.

That's yeah. It's like he's, he's going back to, to Babel is, Hey, this is the proof. Like when we look at Babel, Babel gives us everything.

Babel gives us, you know, when, when, when they were, what they had was they could, they could accomplish anything God could accomplish.

And if you speak in tongues, you can accomplish anything God can accomplish. That was what he was teaching.

Um, let me, let me get to Carreflo Dollar and some of the stuff he taught. Uh, first time

I really heard Creflo dollar. Um, what, what's this that Kofi is putting out?

Kofi is saying, Oh, please. I actually, I should say with an English, you know,

UK accent, but he says, Oh, please. I, I still speak in tongues and have been a sensationist for almost 15 years.

Well, he does speak. He speaks in some tongue called British. Yeah. Um, and, and, but then he says, those tongues are a learned behavior.

Yeah. That's the whole thing. Um, you know, it's, it is a learned behavior.

I was taught how to do it. And, and actually, uh, I think it was Jesse Duplantis that, that was trying to teach people how to do it.

Um, but Creflo dollar ended up saying that, um, that, uh, the reason that, you know, he has all this money is because it's opportunity to feed more sheep.

That's why God gives him so much. That's why God blesses him so much so he can feed more sheep. Hey, Creflo, you want to feed the sheep?

Take your money, get some food and give it to the people who are starving at this thing. Well, see,

I was going to ask about that because didn't we just find out a little bit earlier that there's going to be, what is this?

Uh, RV or boat or something like that full of, of money going to their homes.

They got enough. Why don't you feed the poor? Yeah. You know, I don't see that.

I don't see them, you know, at least, you know, Rick Warren has a whole program where they feed the poor. Where's where, where are these guys feeding the poor?

Where's there, you know, them setting up a, you know, food pantries and things they got.

I mean, I wanted to read this for you. Remember something. Kenneth Copeland is a billionaire.

That's with a B billionaire. He can afford to feed some people. Well, I'll pull this up for you.

That covers us all up, doesn't it? There you go. However, this is more important. This is the word of God.

However, you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you, but if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because you're of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

But if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised

Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit, who what?

Dwells in you. It's the spirit that dwells in you. It's not the flesh. Yeah. So let me, let me give you some more from Creflo.

Cause I still want to try and get to Duplantis. No, we're not.

So, so here's the thing, his whole thing. Now, I want you to understand on Creflo Dollar, who, as Justin says, is probably the only guy that's aptly named the word of faith guys.

He's bragging about how much money he has. He's bragging about, you know, all this. He's talking about how he, he goes into, you know, you know, all this, the fancy suits, all this stuff, right?

He says, serving others is the very essence of ministry. Now with that, we agree.

He says, your anointing is not for you. It's for someone else. And I'm, and I'm saying, what about you?

What about you, Creflo? You're serving others. You're saying that the, you know, you're getting all this money.

It's just for you have opportunity to feed the sheep, but you're not serving the sheep you're out there taking from them.

You're fleecing the sheep. If they're really sheep, you're fleecing them, who you call sheep.

You're not feeding them. You're not giving them what they need. The basic needs. I think the

Bible says that, you know, the person who says, Hey, you know, be, be well my brother, but you don't feed them or, or give them clothing when he has none.

Yeah. You're not really loving him. He said, our spiritual gifts are not for us.

They're for others. That again, I agree with, but I, I go, but he doesn't get the irony of that because you're going to believe in tongues are for yourself.

What's that a spiritual gift, but yet you use it in your own private prayer language.

Then who are you serving yourself? Like this is where you just see they don't, they don't get it.

Like they don't apply what they teach to themselves. They're completely blind. He said, you serve the

Lord Jesus Christ. And someday you will name your salary at your job and you'll be working for the

Lord Christ. So in other words, if you serve Christ, you can, and he literally says, you're going to be able to walk in your boss's office and tell him how much to pay you.

Yeah. Okay. That may work for Creflo dollar in the, in, you know, getting all this money.

And he goes, I want this for a salary, but yeah, it doesn't work that way in real life. And there's going to be a lot of people that are going to try that at work because he said, so yeah, that's not going to go well.

And they're going to be like, God, I'm being persecuted. No, you're being foolish by being deceived and following a false teacher.

As you serve, he says, as you see, serve God, he will lift you up to receive glory.

Now here's the problem with this. What is the ultimate goal in Creflo dollars message to these people that you should receive glory, that you should be honored.

Not God should be receiving glory and God should be honored and you should be humbled. You see, this is completely backwards to what scripture says.

What is it John the Baptist said about Jesus? He should increase and I should decrease. That's the proper message.

But his message is you should be glorified. Not God should be glorified.

He said the pathway to success is servanthood, but how's he defining success?

You being able to name your salary. That's it. Creflo says that when he was dealing with cancer,

I actually told this story already, you know, he, he doesn't, he saw the, you know, the, he saw the, the picture in, in the, in the

MRI. Like, why didn't you hear yourself? Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's as, as Justin Peters would say, gobsmacking, right?

Um, David in the background is saying in the private chat is saying, I demand you give me $10 billion circular reasoning.

See, I mean, he gets it. This is the thing, but it shows you the blindness that these people have.

They're so blind because they want this to be true. Again, no different than evolution, I'd say, but okay.

Jesse Duplantis, let me get some of the things he said. And, and he really didn't, I have the least number of notes, just like, if you can see, not even a full page where I had pages for everybody else, because all he did was talk.

He told stories. That's all he does. That's, it's all stories about him going to heaven and wasn't him going to heaven, you know, him and the mob protecting them.

And, and, and, you know, there, there's even some with that, I said to Justin, I find it hard to believe his stories.

And, you know, I'm saying this, but I'm actually just looked in the notes in the, in the private chat and David saying storytelling,

AKA lying. And I'm going to agree with David. I think it was, because I don't know, but here's why

I think it is. He told a story about when he was a young boy, teenager, he was working for the mob running errands and he was, you know, the, the guy who ran it liked him.

And so he was, because of that, you know, he was, when he got saved, he got out of the mob and he had to have a meeting to get out and they had to discuss it.

And they, because he was, he was so well trusted, they were going to do that. Well, that's when he was a teenager.

Now, Jesse Duplantis is what? Seventies, 80. He, now, if he was a teenager, he's saying when he was a teenager, but then he tells the story of, you know, it's like 10 some years ago.

Okay. So from his teenage years, that's what, like 50, 60 years later.

So the mob boss supposedly, you know, he, he said that he was sitting there, they were doing this event and he was with I forget who he said he was with Jerry Savelle and they couldn't, they just couldn't get these union guys to work fast enough.

They, they were trying to get them to set everything up. They wanted their own guys to do it. And these guys just wouldn't work fast enough.

So, you know, man, what do I do? You know, the Lord just reminded him he's got this, this number in his phone and he called it and he just asked for a favor and said,

Hey, you guys kind of work with the union, don't you? Oh, we own the union. Oh, wow. Hey, we're having a problem.

We just want our own guys to do this. And then all of a sudden the, the union guy comes over all Paul Jack. Hey, you can do whatever you want.

We're sorry. We're really sorry. Here's the problem. If a guy's in his to be the mob boss, you gotta be older, right?

You 30 not going to be forties maybe. So you got a guy in his forties now it's 50 years later.

He's in his nineties and he's still the mob boss. Most mobsters don't live that long, at least in the, in the

Italian mob, Jewish mob is different. And there, there's some history though. The Jewish mob actually does live longer.

They, they didn't flaunt that, you know, Meyer Lansky and those guys lived a lot longer than, you know, okay.

Bugsy Siegel, that was different. Why? Well, he was in Hollywood and trying to flaunt it. Right. It was the same thing. It's not necessarily the

Jewish versus Italian thing. It has more to do with the fact that they were flaunting it. And so even

David is saying in the back, in the private chat, the math doesn't work. That's right. So here's the thing. If Chris Hunter holds is saying

Jewish mob. Yes. Chris, there is a Jewish mob. It's actually my dad's uncle who worked for Longy Zillman Longy Zillman is the guy that actually organized organized crime.

He worked with the three Italian families and the three Jewish families in the Northern New York and in, or sorry,

Northern New Jersey and New York area. And those six families organized. And that actually was what organized organized crime.

That was the first of the families getting together and organizing. And so they had worked together.

And so it was, it was the Jewish mob that actually organized organized crime, but they always took kind of a backseat and let the

Italians take all the, the front frontage and, you know, all the attention and they would usually end up in jail or, or dead.

So the reality is mobsters don't generally live till their nineties and stay in charge, especially so with, for his story to be true, it means that a second generation mobster had to still have that much respect for Jesse Duplantis that one phone call is jumping on the phone to call people to heed what

Jesse says. I'm just saying it's possible, highly unlikely.

Well, okay. So even if it is true, okay. And at which I'm going to agree with you, I really don't think that that would be a legit deal, but you know, what fellowship does

Christ have in Belial? You know, what accorded believer have unbeliever? Oh yeah. He actually, he actually kind of brought that out and saying that that Jerry Seville was like,

Hey, God works in mysterious ways. And he, and it wasn't until a few years ago that Jerry realized that it was him making a phone call to the mob.

You know, now it's interesting because the way that he justified the story was he said that there was there was someone who was that was there, this couple that was in the hotel and they stood up and he's like, the mob was there.

Right. And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It turns out as I'm handing out gospel tracks, that guy that's a friend with Jesse Duplantis, I handed him a gospel track.

Here's what he says to me. He goes, he looks at it. He looks at the shaft and he says, are you trying to get saved?

And I said, yes, I am. And he walked off. He's the only one that recognized what it was.

I handed him, we handed out hundreds of gospel tracks. Nobody knew what they were. Now, Justin was handing out lots of million dollar bills.

It was the funniest thing. He was handing a million dollar bills. One woman goes, I'm going to stand on this. He goes, just read it first.

Please read it before you stand on it. So, so Jesse Duplantis kept talking about, um, having more faith is the only way to get

God's attention. You can't get God's attention unless you have more faith.

Um, how do you increase your faith and, uh, and, and keep it increasing?

Well, you know, the answer to that, keep giving to him, of course. Yeah. It's, it's everything that they're teaching.

I mean, um, he taught, now ready for this one? He taught that the only, uh, the only one that can commit the unpardonable sin are

Christians. That's like, wait, what? Yeah.

Christians are the only ones according to him that can commit the unpardonable sin. And I'm going, wait a minute. Did you, did you actually read the text?

Read the text. It was unbelievers. It was unbelievers. It was unbelievers.

Yeah. That's crazy. Meanwhile, while the show's going, Chris Hanholds is saying boom, but I, I, I'm seeing that Chris Hanholds just sent me a

Marco Polo. I am, I am very close to tempted to playing this Marco Polo live, but I don't, who knows what he, he, he said, but I'm, I'm going to behave myself and not because you know, it could be bad.

He may not want it. And so I won't do that. But, but Chris just says, okay, I just rolled my eyes so hard.

I saw my brain. Oh, so I, I, you know, let me just say that the thing that these guys need, they have

Bibles. Someone asked me if they, if they, people, I've, I've actually will say this people in the, in sitting there, we're taking more notes in their

Bible and more and more notes than I see in most churches. Okay. So there's something wrong with folks that, you know, there were people, they were sitting there, the guy next to Paul just kept going, well, there's a verse that way

I got to get you. He wanted to look it up. And I kept saying, read the context, but, but the reality, their

Bibles are marked up. They got, they got tabs in them. I mean, it is, they look like they're studying.

And yet with all their study, like the Pharisees, they completely miss the point completely.

And that's a shame. It's like, it's right there in front of them. Yeah. And so, so here's the thing.

Okay. It's, it is you need to be praying for these people that are trapped in this.

You really do because they, they are so deceived in this. Yeah. They're being built, you know, they're getting, yeah.

It's, you know, they have all that, but you know, what they really need, what they really need is, is they, they need to, to go and, and get a, you know,

Logos Bible software and, and do it. If, if you want, there's a link right there on the show, on the screen, go to bit .ly,

B -I -T .L -Y slash S -F -E Logos. If you get a brand new copy of Logos, or if you upgrade it, we'll give you

Striving Fraternity. We'll give you five free books. It's an agreement we have. They sponsor us, they help support us. And the agreement we have is that you go to our page and which we've kind of they give a really long page.

We gave a shorter one. B -I -T .L -Y slash S -F -E Logos. It'll be in the show notes.

But if you go there, you at least can get some discounts and get free five, five free books from us.

These guys need Logos because they need to learn to do real study. Chris is saying, dying of thirst with the water of life surrounding them.

That'll preach. Wow. That's that is the reality folks.

These people are like the Pharisees who study the scriptures and completely miss

Christ. Yeah. Okay. And that's the thing I didn't, you know, what

I've half tempted Justin to do and I'm going to close with this. I picked this up from Gloria Copeland.

This was on, this was right next to the hand sanitizer, at least the hand sanitizer I can use. But this is from Gloria Copeland and it says you are healed.

And all it is is 10 ways to prove that God wants to heal you and that you are healed.

And then it's a whole lot of scripture versus just scripture citations.

I was, I actually was thinking one time, we should go through these and see how many of them are in context and how many of them have absolutely nothing to do with what they claim healing is that may be for a future show.

We'll we will see, but you know, this is just, I know for some

AK Chris Han holds, this was painful. I hope you were praying for Justin and I, while we were having to sit actually sit through this.

This was far more painful because I only gave you the notes. You didn't get the whole thing.

And so, but I did, we did want to bring inside. We were hoping Justin would be able to get in here. I guess he's still on the road.

He must hit traffic, but we just wanted to, to bring, see you just go to, you know, just a way of signing out, just go to striving fraternity.

If you can help support us, that would be great. And we'll be back next week.

And we just appreciate you guys. The more that you guys come in with questions and challenges, the better we have the better dialogue we have.

Hopefully next week we'll talk about Q and maybe David will come back. We'll hopefully have Justin, Justin back on.

Maybe we could finish this next week with him. So unfortunately he couldn't, he never made it in.