Can I have an insecure attachment to God?

Hello, hello, everybody. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host today. I'm so excited to have Sam Landa on my podcast. If you follow me on Instagram, you would have known that he's been on my live a couple of times and we were discussing attachment theory because you're a psychologist, you're a licensed counselor, a licensed professional counselor, which I'll get into your bio in a second.

But just the topic of attachment style, you typically think of that of like your ex and how are you attached to them or the attachment style you have to your parents and how that influences modern day relationships.

But you blew my mind on the live when you were saying, you know, like, what is your attachment style to God? So I'm so excited that we've dedicated an hour now to explore all of that topic further. And just to give you a proper introduction, Sam, you are a licensed professional counselor.

You're based in the East Coast. You teach undergraduate psychology courses at Liberty University. You've taught at every level level of education, starting from middle school through the graduate level.

You have online teaching courses, residential psychology courses. And right now you're working on your doctorate degree as a counselor, education and supervision. You have research, you're writing a dissertation on this topic, and you also host two different podcasts, one being Psych and Theo with Tim Yance and another as God Attachment Healing, which I had the privilege of being on yesterday.

I'm so excited for that episode. We had a really great conversation. But welcome. Thank you. I'm excited. I mean, anytime we can talk about attachment,.

I'm down for it. I mean, this this has been on my mind since, like, I started graduate school. I think I shared a little bit with you on my podcast about just my mentor. I mean, that that was kind of how he what he did his dissertation on and basically just talking with him and having chats about attachment.

So it just became like a lane for me to stay in and then just find different.

Avenues to. So you would say while you were in your graduate level research, you found a counselor, a teacher that was really helpful for you to understand what your attachment style was just to yourself, to your partners, to your relationship, to your parents and even to God.

And from there is when you started focusing on attachment style in a spiritual sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, once he.

Introduced God attachment style to me, it just made a lot of sense of how I related to God, because it was very much based on my relations with my parents, my relationship with my authority figures. Like it was very it was very distant, respectful, oriented, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit.

But I missed the relational piece part of it. So the anxious person that that's kind of who I was, you know, everything was out of my control. My parents got divorced when I was 17. So that shook me a little bit.

So everything that I had as your base was not a secure base anymore. So then it was trying to grab on to things that would give me some sense of security. And a lot of that was accomplishing stuff and, and just trying to do and be the best for everything or,.

Or everyone else. So that's where it started. Yeah, that's a pretty big goal. So what were you studying prior to kind of focusing on attachment theory? Yeah, well, I didn't have.

Anything that I was focusing on. I mean, I was just interested in learning about everything. But because I was so close to that professor, we just slowly started to he started to invest time in me. And I started to kind of pick up on what he was sharing.

So it just makes sense to me. And.

It's just kind of stuck with me ever since. That's amazing. Yeah, I'm sure that this has really affected every avenue of your life when you now like look through the lens of you know,.

What is our attachment style? Yes, very much so everything that I do and look at any.

Approach. Well, kind of the background, do you want to give like a quick synopsis on exactly what happened that got you to focusing so much on attachment theory? Yeah, so like the story of you.

And your counselor, right? Actually, so he was my professor when I first entered graduate school. And he was so I had three professors and two of them, they still know to this day, got very close with them.

But he kind of took this mentorship, discipleship approach with me, where when I became his GSA and TA, so graduate assistant, teaching assistant, he really just kind of poured his life into me. So he really he asked me one time, he said, Sam, what do you want to do in the future?

Like, what's what's your big goal with coming to graduate school and seeking this degree and so on? And I was like, you know, it seems that I've just always been the teaching realm. Like I taught middle school students, high school students, I like working with graduate students and undergrad students.

And he said, So you want to teach? He's like, I think so. Yeah, that's what I want to do. He's like, Okay, well, prepare a lesson. And in three weeks, you can teach a class. I'm like, what? So that's kind of how he introduced me to just the classroom experience at the graduate level.

Yeah, it was it was crazy. I was just so surprised that he wanted me to have that experience. So I took that. Yeah. And and yeah, that I mean, my love for teaching for being in the classroom, working with students, it really grew from there.

So I've been teaching ever since I was in 2012, 2013. And so yeah, so I've been there for many years. And the attachment piece was me trying to understand the the way I related to others. Obviously, you mentioned kind of would be with romantic partners or friendship with parents or with people in the church.

And I was just always filled with this overwhelming tension and feel like never getting things right. I was an over performer. Like I wanted to do things. I didn't think about it like that when I was doing it.

For me, it was just I was just that was my mentality. So I kind of operated that way. I didn't see anything about it. But when it started to become an issue, an actual relationship, friendship, I realized that was off.

And then I noticed the same thing in my relationship with God that I try to keep all the rules in order for me to be good enough, pleasing for God. So that just kind of led me into trying to understand it more and more.

Okay, wow, that is quite a realization when you're kind of like, I'm anxiously attached to God, you know, and I feel like I've experienced an anxious attachment, just some prior relationships where it is this, you know, eagerness for closeness for intimacy for honesty, and to feel like you're never really going to get enough of it or that you're not deserving of it.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yeah, yeah, that's a perfect description of it. I mean, the person who is anxiously attached wants to be the best that they can. But even if they are the best, they still feel like it's not enough, they still feel like they're missing the mark, and therefore continue kind of people pleasing behaviors, right?

And this case, it was God pleasing behaviors. What pleases God, me going to church three times a week, me going to this church event over here, me having going to home group, me being serviceful, me going to every service opportunity, like all of those things for me was like, if I do these things, then God will see me in a better life, right?

And we do that with people too. If I do A, B, and C, then this person will fully accept me. If I don't mess up, then this person will really love me, right? So we kind of carry on those same patterns in both relationships.

And just to kind of like compare it, having more secure attachment to God would be, you know, doing the things that you actually want to do, not the things that you're supposed to do. Or I want to say like have boundaries with God.

But if I was to have a secure relationship with someone, it'd be like, well, I can't come to you at every beck and call. Like I have boundaries. I need to go to bed early or I have, you know, I have to work out.

So with God, what would those boundaries in a secure attachment style to God, what would be some examples of those?

Attachment Styles and Their View of Self, Others, and God

Yeah. So, so one way I like to break it down is kind of having this quadrants or different views of people and different views of God. So think about it this way. The securely attached person has a high view of self and a high view of others, meaning that they overall have a positive view of themselves.

Good self-esteem, you know, they understand themselves, they have, are able to reflect well, can regulate their own emotions. So that's a securely attached person. And they also believe that about other people, but that stems from their childhood experiences where if their parents were able to meet their needs, then it would make sense why they would trust that people are in general good and that in general people can meet their needs.

Right. So they have a positive view of people and a positive view of themselves. So that's a securely attached person. An anxiously attached person has a high view of others, negative view of self. Right.

So people are better than me. People, you know, they're, they're so much smarter. They're so much cooler that they're better looking. They're all these things. But me, I still have so much work to do.

Like, I need to work on this. I need to work on that. So that shows for, from an attachment perspective, that that person's needs were met inconsistently. They never knew if they really hit the mark. Right.

So maybe on some days mom or dad was able to meet a need, but on other days, not so much. Maybe mom promised some things or dad promised some things and sometimes they got it and other times they didn't.

Right. So they never really know, is it because of me that I do something wrong that I didn't receive that gift or I didn't receive that love or care. So they start to view themselves negatively, but it can't be mom or dad that messed up.

It can't be my authority figures that messed up. So it must be me. So positive view of others, negative view of self. The avoidant attachment style, they would see themselves in a positive light and would see others in a negative light.

Right. So I had to depend on myself in order to meet these goals in order for me to do well in school. Like I just became super dedicated. I didn't need anyone. It was pretty much all up to me and I made it work.

Right. So they've learned that they can't depend or trust other people. So avoidance, typically they didn't have their needs met, so they couldn't trust their primary caregivers. Right. They never trusted anyone that would be in their circle because everyone was doing their own thing or people were distracted or everyone was working.

Right. So they kind of learned to fend for themselves. So in that sense, because they've had to do it for so long, why would I depend on anyone else when I've been doing these things on my own? Right.

So they develop a sense of avoidance of close relationships. They can communicate with people and attach to people in a way that works for them, but they're not going to be intimate or vulnerable or close with that person.

For them, it's really kind of, again, positive view of self, negative view of others. Others are going to hurt me. I'd rather not go through that hurt. So I'll just kind of depend on myself. Right. And then lastly, the disorganizer or the fearful avoidance, this person typically has experienced some significant trauma.

So sometimes they feel anxious. Other times they feel avoidance. Other times they just don't know what to feel. They can't regulate. They can't, they don't have any self-awareness. Right. So this is just someone who not only did they not have their needs met, but they were probably abused in some way, shape or form, you know, because the impact of trauma is not just when you are abused, but it's also when significant needs are withheld or not provided.

So this person grows up learning, I can't trust anyone, but I want to trust someone, but I can't. What if they break my heart? What if they are not able to meet my needs? Is it my fault? Is it because of me?

So they have this constant battle in their mind where it's a negative view of self and a negative view of others. Right. So that's kind of the overall perspective of attachment styles in the way that they view themselves and the way that they view other people.

And again, just take that same template and apply that to God. If their relation with their parents was that they never met their needs and that they had to depend on themselves and avoid in person and avoid an attachment to God would look like someone who says, you know, I believe in God, but, you know, I got to where I am because of the things that I've done.

I mean, I'm really smart. I'm really this. I am very competent. So all of these things that I have, yeah, God's good and he's given me some, but I've also worked hard for it. Right. So this is the person who doesn't really have anyone to depend on.

So they only understand them doing the work to get the results that they want. So I know God and I believe in God, but I don't trust him enough to be vulnerable and intimate.

And seek a relationship with him. Okay. So that would be the avoidance. So it's more of like a lack of faith and vulnerability and intimacy. And then there was also anxious. So that was anxious was, I'm sorry.

I'm like, my mind is slipping. That would be the lower view of myself and the.

Higher view of others. Exactly. Like, why would God love me? What, what do I have to give to God? Right. Who am I in this, in this world? Right. So God is great. I love, you know, he's a great person.

He loves, he says he loves me, but I'm not lovable. Right. Because no one in their world has shown them that they're lovable and they have that negative view of themselves already. So they see God, they respect God.

They understand that God is good, but they don't really experience that with him because of their anxious attachment style. They don't have a level of consistency to believe that. Right. This is a person who could read scripture that talks about God's goodness and about his presence and about his faithfulness and all of those things.

And they could see it and read it and believe it, but they don't feel like they're worthy to experience that with God. So gosh, they become anxious. They, they feel like it's about them. This reminds me of the.

Conversation we had yesterday. Yeah. I realize now how much I told you yesterday on the podcast. You're like anxious attachment. Got it. Okay. Keep going. So now secure attachment with God.

What would that look like? Okay. So secure attachment with God would be okay. I'm worthy of love. You know, my parents have shown me that they can meet my needs. My needs will eventually be met, even though right now it doesn't look like it, but because I know that God is faithful and because I know that he is good.

And because I know that he is just at the right time, he will give me what I need. Right. So this is a person that could be going through a time of suffering, but because they have such consistent behaviors of people meeting their needs, it's an easy leap to read scripture and see those verses that talk about God's goodness, his faithfulness and his, uh, his providence and believe it because that's all they've ever experienced.

So they have a high view of God, positive view of God and a positive view of themselves. They don't see themselves as unworthy. They understand the biblical aspect of being a sinner, but they don't see themselves as, Oh, God would never love me.

He said, no, that says in his word that he loves me. I believe it. I've experienced it. And I know that he's used to people in my life to show me how much he loves me. It could be my parents. It could be a best friend.

It could be a pastor. It can be anyone in their life, but they see the world through this pure lens of God loves me. And the way that he's demonstrated that to me is through these people in my life.

That is absolutely mind blowing, but you've just mapped that out so well. So thank you, Sam. Um, was this like, so mind blowing for you when you realized this and you like put this down in words, I mean, it just in your field, was this kind of revolutionary or like, what was the response when you kind of put this together?

Cause I've never heard this before. Yeah. Well, it was the first.

Time I had heard it, uh, with, with, uh, my professor and, and I was just shocked. I was like, yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? Like, as we're talking about it, it's like, yeah, that makes sense.

Like if all I've ever experienced is fear and disappointment in my relationships, why would I believe that God is trustworthy? You know, if I don't have any real life examples of what trustworthiness is, how can I make that lead to just reading scripture and believing it?

Now there is, are the examples of people who have through the Holy Spirit, have been convicted of sin. And then they learn to depend on God because obviously now we have the spirit of God living inside of us.

So God awakens us to those things. But the majority of life is our experiences with people, right? We're made to be in community when we're, when we're made in God's image, God in his being is a triune God, his father, son, Holy Spirit, right?

So he's a community within himself. So when we read that we're made in God's image, it makes sense why we so desperately seek relationships. We so desperately see acceptance and completeness because that is God's nature.

He is complete and fully understands himself as a Trinity, as the one, right? His oneness. So all of those things, it makes sense why we relate.

And why we seek that community so much. Wow. I love the way you just put that, Sam, is that God is his own community of father, son, and Holy Spirit. You know, he has this triune of like a fun group of three.

And with that, we already have, you know, three people that we can be in community with. I mean, you know, just me and my three best friends, like that's a good time. And with those people, I want the most secure, trusting, loving relationships with.

So when we approach God, we are technically, yeah. Approaching our quote unquote, best three friends and coming to them in what type of relationship style, what type of communication style, and how do we view them?

You mentioned something about like the father, you know, understanding God as a father. This concept, you know, is tough, I think, because God is so many things. He's a protector, he's a provider, he's a father, he's a friend.

And, you know, as an early Christian, it's kind of hard to imagine that in one person. There's not typically one person that plays all of those roles for us. But as a father, you pointed out that this is kind of a new concept when it came to the Israelite culture, that prior to Christianity and Jesus, you know, seeing God as the father was new.

It wasn't something that they typically did. Could you kind of give us some background on that topic? Yeah, yeah. And let me preface that, and I know.

We've talked about it before your audience as well, is that my background and specialization is in counseling and psychology and attachment theory and so on. So I'm not a biblical scholar, but I can read Scripture and try to gain an understanding of what's happening in the text and so on.

Actually, there's a really good book, and even I think it's How to Make the Most of Reading Your Bibles. I have it over here somewhere. But it's a really good demonstration of how to read through Scripture and see it and make observations and so on.

So with that being said, one of the observations made about this aspect of God as a father is that the words themselves, we see it in a couple of verses, and I think I sent you some. So we see some in Isaiah, we see one in Jeremiah, some in Malachi, right?

So I'll read some of these. Isaiah 63, verse 16. For you are our father through Abraham, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our father. Our Redeemer of old is your name.

So we see a reference here from the prophet Isaiah mentioning this aspect of God our father, right? 64, verse 8. But now, O Lord, you are our father. We are the clay, you are our potter, and we are all the work of your hand.

And Malachi 2, verse 10. Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another? We see these references to God as our father, but probably what we see more often in the Old Testament is the children of God.

The Old Testament kind of understood themselves or the Israelites that they were children of God, which would imply that God was their father, right? But we don't see that language as much in the Old Testament of them referring to him as father.

And remember that they would use a high priest to connect or to repent of their sins with God, right? And that was, I think it was done once a year. So that was really their own connection with God. And, you know, just to make a quick leap, and with Jesus, he kind of breaks through all of that.

He says, now you can have a personal relationship with God through me, his son, which is why I came to earth. So now they have direct access to God, which Hebrews, I think it's Hebrews 12. So they have direct access to God.

Us modern day Christians have direct access to God. At that time, they didn't. So the culture played a huge role in how they even saw their relationship with God. You know, God was the creator. He was the father.

He was the one who provided for them, who made miracles, right? Who protected them. So you see that when they had to battle of the nations and so on. So they understood all of that, but I don't know. And again, this is where my colleagues and scholar friends of Old Testament can correct me, but they didn't, they didn't know, or they didn't have that personal relationship individually with God as a nation.

They had it with God, but I don't know if they were able to experience or if they experienced it relationally. So we have Abraham with God and we have all the fathers and so on that they had that, but they were representatives of God to the people.

Right. So that's an area where I think my friends and colleagues can speak to about, yeah, I mean, did they experience God in the same way that we would today?

Absolutely. And I think you're just bringing up a lot of points. I mean, this is a discussion, you have an areas area of expertise. Thanks for showing me your limits. I mean, there's no, I'm not trying to corner you into giving me a response, but like, if you think about it, there's the Israelites that are experiencing God through a priest or through a messenger like Abraham or Moses who are experiencing God in firsthand.

And if you had a father that you only talked to through his secretary, like what kind of attachment style do you have with that father on earth? The same way, you know, like Moses or Abraham are experiencing completely different version of God because they're experiencing him in real time.

They're speaking directly to him. And those are the lens of which, you know, the stories of the Bible are told. And then if you kind of put it in a modern sense, we've got the way that we experienced God today, which does feel much more disconnected.

We have way more distraction. It seems like all three, you know, an Israelite through a priest, Abraham, Moses, those characters that experienced him in front of him. And then us today with this bit of disconnect, if we're going to be honest, those are three different types of relationships.

Those are three different attachment styles just.

Due to the level of closeness that's allowed. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. That's a great point. But you know what? Another thing that we can add to this is think about when Moses or Abraham, when they would talk to the people.

Right. Let's take Moses, for example. The people are seeing Moses relationship with God. So they have a template in a sense of, oh, this is what it looks like. Right. Yes. Moses is presenting us and he's speaking on God's behalf and on our behalf.

But we're seeing what a relationship with God can look like. And similarly, today, we can observe other people who have a relationship with God and say, you know what? I want that. You know, the benefit that we have is we have direct access to God when we become saved through his son, Jesus Christ.

Right. So we have that when we become believers. So we are able to learn how other people attach to God and we can pick up on that and we say, oh, you know what? I was missing. So personally, what I was missing was the relational piece.

I had a cognitive understanding of who God was. I grew up in the church. I was taught scripture. I was taught doctrine. But I didn't have that personal relationship with Christ. Yeah. And that's what I saw in other people.

I'm like, how do I get that? And, you know, as we discussed a little bit, is that sometimes suffering is what kind of pushes us to seek God in a much more personal way. Right. And interestingly, one of the things that that we learn about attachment is your attachment system is activated when you encounter a stressor within the relationship.

Right. Oftentimes I'll see people, they'll say something like, oh, I have a secure attachment style. And I say, well, how do you know? I say, well, you know, we really get along great and, you know, everything's going well and this, this and that.

Right. Things are positive. But what happened when you guys have a conflict? Oh, we haven't had a conflict. OK, well, you kind of have to wait till that happens because the conflict would be the stressor.

So let's say they have a conflict and all of a sudden the person just kind of loses it. They feel anxious. They can't stop thinking about the problem that they're having. They want to fix it right away, but the other person doesn't want to.

Right. That's when you see the attachment system activated. There needs to be a stressor within the context of the relationship for you to see what a person's attachment style actually is. So similarly, in our relationship with God, you understand how how your attachment to God is based on the stressor that you encounter.

So, for example, let's say the loss of a child or the loss of a best friend. Right. So you lose your best friend. So there's two responses, maybe more. Right. But two typical responses could be, God, why did you allow this to happen?

This is the person that I love the most, is the person I've known for years, and now they're gone. You're not good anymore. Right. So that would show and avoid an attachment style because they don't know the person that, you know, the person of God, who he is to them in their life.

So they pull away. A secure attachment would say, Lord, I don't understand why this happened. I know that you have a purpose behind this, but right now I'm really hurting. Please comfort me. I don't know what to do with this situation, but I'm in a lot of pain and I need you to help me through this.

Right. That's a secure response because they know that even though something bad has happened in their life, God has been present and he has been faithful and committed to their good through him. So that's how you see there needs to be a stressor that activates how one chooses to attach to their,.

To their God or to other people in their lives. Is there an anxious example for that version?

Yeah. So an anxious attachment style could be, what did I do wrong to deserve this Lord? What did I do? Where did I mess up? You decided to take away my best friend or take away my child. What did I do?

It had to be, it was three years ago when I did that bad thing, right? When I disrespected this person or when I gossiped about this other person or when I lied to my spouse or to this person or to that person, right?

All of these things, they start blaming themselves and trying to find the problem that they did that made the Lord punish them in a specific way. So that is the anxious attachment. They'll look at, I did something wrong, right?

Kind of going back to that negative view of self. I did something wrong. I deserve this because I did A, B and C, right? But sometimes life just happens, right? Life just happens sometimes and there may be no reason behind it, but it does allow us to see who we depend on and who we turn to during times of.

The stress. And that's the attachment. Yeah. Yeah. This is really illuminating in just the ways that you may have, or I may have, you know, just like a flashlight pointing out, like how am I reacting to God when I have that source of conflict or don't get what I want, or, you know, he takes away something that I really wanted or puts me through something that I like.

Really struggled with. This is amazing. Can you think of a person in scripture and see if we'd be able to figure out what their attachment style to God?

Oh, I like that. That's a fun game. I was thinking about Jonah, actually, when you were talking because Jonah was so reluctant to go talk to those people and deliver the message. Oh gosh, now I can't remember the name of the country, but he didn't want to do it.

The Ninevites, yes, in Nineveh, he got on a ship and went the opposite direction. And even when he got there, he was like 40 days and the land will fall. Like he just like said it really, really quickly.

And he just like did not want to obey God. So to me, that would tell me that he's avoidant.

Yeah. Yeah. Great illustration. Great illustration. Like the stressor was, I want you to send the message. And what was his response? I'm going to avoid it. You know, I don't want to do it. Right. If there was a secure attachment, you trust the person that's telling you to go send the message.

If it's anxious, he would have done a Moses where Moses was like, Lord, I'm not capable. I'm not worthy. I don't have the words. I'm not able to speak. Right. So he was putting it on himself. Moses was.

And Jonah, he could deliver the message. He just didn't want to do it. Right. So he was avoidance in that situation. Moses would have shown kind of like an anxious attachment style because he's kind of looking at himself and saying, I'm the problem.

I'm not worthy enough to go do this. Pick someone else. I'm not the person. Right. So it's a me issue. Negative view of self, positive view of God. He didn't question God's character in that moment. It was just, it was about me.

Like I'm not capable to do what you're calling me to do. Right. So that would be an anxious attachment.

Style. Okay. Then would you say Job was secure? Yeah. Yeah. Job, you could, you could know he has.

That. And here's the cool thing too. Right. Cause there's this argument happening between Job and God. Right. In a secure attachment, you're able to have those tough discussions and trust that the relationship is still going to be okay.

Right. In a secure attachment, in a secure relationship, you can have tough conversations. Right. I mean, it's the typical piece of advice that we receive, right? Like it's not that couples don't have arguments.

It's how they have those arguments. Like how do they speak to each other? What's the tone, what's the posture, all of those things. So you can have a discussion or argument about something and be respectful and kind.

Right. And not fear that you're going to lose their relationship. So people who are secure in their attachment can have those discussions and know that at the end of it, they still love each other and they still care for each other and they're still going to be there for each other.

An anxious attachment is not going to thank them. They're going to think, what did I do wrong? Oh, no, they're going to leave me. Oh, I'm not good enough for them. Oh gosh. Why did I say that? I shouldn't have said that.

Right. And the avoidance guy is going to be like, I don't care. I'm done with this. I'm better on my own. I don't need anyone. So they can't take that approach. So again, similarly, we carry those same patterns in our relationship.

Yeah. That is really interesting.

And Job's almost a little tricky because he goes through so many emotions of like, I'm faultless. Why is this happening to me? It almost is like, nope, you got it wrong, God. And then when God humbles him in the last chapters, he really does like, you're right.

How could I possibly fathom the reasoning behind what you've done? But again, he never questions his worth or devalues himself. He really does stand up for himself and then is able to humble.

Himself when he realizes he's in the wrong. Exactly. And that's a great point. It's the realization, right? Because we're human. We make mistakes. We're not going to be perfect in how we respond. But what you realize is that after the offense, they seek reconciliation.

They seek understanding. Yeah. And they want to reconnect. And that's part of being in a secure relationship.

Yeah. Let's talk about the role of Jesus and kind of how he broke down and created closeness to God in the ways that maybe previous Near Eastern civilizations weren't able to do because it was through a priest or through Moses or through Abraham.

But with Jesus, that changed because now it was much closer. It was the embodiment of God in a person that they could then experience in real time. How does that impact the relationship you're still trying to have with God the Father?

But now you have Jesus in front of you. What kind of impact does that have on the attachment style you're trying to build with God when you've got the physical person in front of you? It's so hard to describe this.