Can I have an insecure attachment to God?

Biblically Speaking

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Hello, hello, everybody. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host today.

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I'm so excited to have Sam Landa on my podcast. If you follow me on Instagram, you would have known that he's been on my live a couple of times and we were discussing attachment theory because you're a psychologist, you're a licensed counselor, a licensed professional counselor, which

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I'll get into your bio in a second. But just the topic of attachment style, you typically think of that of like your ex and how are you attached to them or the attachment style you have to your parents and how that influences modern day relationships.

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But you blew my mind on the live when you were saying, you know, like, what is your attachment style to God?

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So I'm so excited that we've dedicated an hour now to explore all of that topic further.

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And just to give you a proper introduction, Sam, you are a licensed professional counselor. You're based in the

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East Coast. You teach undergraduate psychology courses at Liberty University. You've taught at every level of education, starting from middle school through graduate level.

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You have online teaching courses, residential psychology courses. And right now, you're working on your doctorate degree as a counselor, education and supervision.

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You have research. You're writing a dissertation on this topic. And you also host two different podcasts, one being

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Psych and Theo with Tim Yance and another as God Attachment Healing, which I had the privilege of being on yesterday.

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I'm so excited for that episode. We had a really great conversation. But welcome. Thank you.

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I'm excited. I mean, anytime we could talk about attachment, I'm down for it. I mean, this this has been on my mind since like I started graduate school.

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I think I shared a little bit with you on my podcast about just my mentor. I mean, that that was kind of how he what he did his dissertation on and basically just talking with him and having chats about attachment.

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So it just became like a lane for me to stay in and then just find different avenues to. So you would say while you were in your graduate level research, you found a counselor, a teacher that was really helpful for you to understand what your attachment style was just to yourself, to your partners, to your relationship, to your parents and even to God.

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And from there is when you started focusing on attachment style in a spiritual sense. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, once he introduced God attachment style to me, it just made a lot of sense of how I related to God, because it was very much based on my relations with my parents, my relationship with my authority figures.

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Like it was very it was very distant, respectful, oriented, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit.

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But I missed the relational piece part of it. So the anxious person that that's kind of who

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I was, you know, everything was out of my control. My parents got divorced when I was 17. So that shook me a little bit.

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So everything that I had a secure base was not a secure base anymore. So then

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I was trying to grab on to things that would give me some sense of security. And a lot of that was accomplishing stuff and, and just trying to do and be the best for everything or, or everyone else.

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So that's where it started. Yeah, that's a pretty big goal. So what were you studying prior to kind of focusing on attachment theory?

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Yeah, well, I didn't have anything that I was focusing on. I mean, I was just interested in learning about everything.

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But because I was so close to that professor, we just slowly started to he started to invest time in me.

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And I started to kind of pick up on what he was sharing. So it just makes sense to me. And it's just kind of stuck with me ever since.

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That's amazing. Yeah, I'm sure that this has really affected every avenue of your life when you now like look through the lens of you know, what is our attachment style?

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Yes, very much so everything that I do and look at any approach. Kind of the background, do you want to give like a quick synopsis on exactly what happened that got you to focusing so much on attachment theory?

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Yeah, so like the story of you and your counselor, right? Actually, so he was my professor when I first entered graduate school.

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And he was so I had three professors and two of them, they still know to this day, got very close with them.

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But he kind of took this mentorship, discipleship approach with me, where when I became his

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GSA TA, so graduate assistant, teaching assistant, he really just kind of poured his life into me.

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So he really he asked me one time, he said, Sam, what do you want to do in the future? Like what's what's your big goal with coming to graduate school and seeking this degree and so on?

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And I was like, you know, it seems that I've just always been the teaching realm. Like I taught middle school students, high school students,

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I like working with graduate students and undergrad students. And he said, So you want to teach? Like, I think so.

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Yeah, that's what I want to do. He's like, Okay, well, prepare a lesson. And in three weeks, you can teach a class like what? So that's kind of how he introduced me to just the classroom experience.

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Yeah, it was it was great. I was just so surprised that he wanted me to have that experience. So I took that.

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And and yeah, that I mean, my love for teaching for being in the classroom working with students, it really grew from there.

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So I've been teaching ever since I was in 2012 2013. And so yeah, so I've been there for many years.

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And the attachment piece was me trying to understand the way I related to others.

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Obviously, you mentioned kind of would be with romantic partners or friendship, parents or people in the church.

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And I was just always with this overwhelming machine and you're like never getting things right.

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I was an over performer. Like I wanted to do things. I didn't think about it like that when I was doing that. For me, it was just I was just terrible.

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That was my mentality. So I kind of operated that way.

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But I didn't see anything about it. But when it started to become an issue in actual relationship and friendship,

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I realized that something was off. And then I noticed the same thing in my relationship with God that I try to keep all the rules in order for me to be good enough, pleasing for God.

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So that just kind of led me into trying to understand it more and more. Okay, wow, that is quite a realization when you're kind of like I'm anxiously attached to God, you know, and I feel like I've experienced an anxious attachment, just some prior relationships where it is this, you know, eagerness for closeness for intimacy for honesty, and to feel like you're never really going to get enough of it or that you're not deserving of it.

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Am I understanding that correctly? Yeah, yeah, that's a perfect description of it. I mean, the person who is anxiously attached wants to be the best that they can.

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But even if they are the best, they still feel like it's not enough, they still feel like they're missing the mark, and therefore continue kind of people pleasing behaviors, right?

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And this case, it was God pleasing behaviors. What pleases God me going to church three times a week, me going to this church event over here, me having going to home group, me being serviceful, me going to every service opportunity, all of those things for me was like, if I do these things, then

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God will see me in a better light, right? And we do that with people too. If I do A, B, and C, then this person will fully accept me.

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If I don't mess up, then this person will really love me, right? So we kind of carry on those same patterns in both relationships.

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And just to kind of like compare it, having more secure attachment to God would be, you know, doing the things that you actually want to do, not the things that you're supposed to do, or I want to say, like, have boundaries with God.

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But if I was to have a secure relationship with someone to be like, well, I can't come to you at every beck and call, like I have boundaries,

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I need to go to bed early, or I have, you know, I have to work out. So with God, what would those boundaries in a secure attachment style to God, what would be some examples of those?

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Yeah. So, so one way I like to break it down is kind of having this quadrant or different views of people and different views of God.

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So think about it this way. The securely attached person has a high view of self and a high view of others, meaning that they overall have a positive view of themselves, good self -esteem, they understand themselves, they have are able to reflect well, can regulate their own emotions, so that's a securely attached person.

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And they also believe that about other people. But that stems from their childhood experiences, where if their parents were able to meet their needs, then it would make sense why they would trust that people are in general good, and that in general, people can meet their needs, right?

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So they have a positive view of people and a positive view of themselves. So that's a securely attached person.

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An anxiously attached person has a high view of others, negative view of self, right?

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So people are better than me, people, you know, they're so much smarter, they're so much cooler, they're better looking, they're all these things.

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But me, I still have so much work to do. Like, I need to work on this, I need to work on that. So that shows from an attachment perspective, that that person's needs were met inconsistently.

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They never knew if they really hit the mark, right? So maybe on some days, mom or dad was able to meet a need, but on other days, not so much.

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Maybe mom promised some things, or dad promised some things, and sometimes they got it, and other times they didn't, right?

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So they never really know, is it because of me that I do something wrong that I didn't receive that gift, or I didn't receive that love or care?

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So they start to view themselves negatively. But it can't be mom or dad that messed up, it can't be my authority figures that messed up, so it must be me.

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So positive view of others, negative view of self. The avoidant attachment style, they would see themselves in a positive light, and would see others in a negative light, right?

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So I had to depend on myself in order to meet these goals, in order for me to do well in school, like I just became super dedicated,

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I didn't need anyone, it was pretty much all up to me, and I made it work, right? So they've learned that they can't depend or trust other people.

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So avoidance, typically, they didn't have their needs met, so they couldn't trust their primary caregivers, right?

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They never trusted anyone who would be in their circle, because everyone was doing their own thing, or people were distracted, or everyone was working, right?

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So they kind of learned to fend for themselves. So in that sense, because they've had to do it for so long, why would

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I depend on anyone else when I've been doing these things on my own, right? So they develop a sense of avoidance, of close relationships, like they can communicate with people and attach to people in a way that works for them, but they're not going to be intimate, or vulnerable, or close with that person.

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For them, it's really kind of, again, positive view of self, negative view of others. Others are going to hurt me,

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I'd rather not go through that hurt, so I'll just kind of depend on myself, right? And then lastly, the disorganizer, the fearful avoidance.

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This person typically has experienced some significant trauma, so sometimes they feel anxious, other times they feel avoidance, other times they just don't know what to feel, they can't regulate, they can't, they don't have any self -awareness, right?

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So this is just someone who not only did they not have their needs met, but they were probably abused in some way, shape, or form, you know?

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Because the impact of trauma is not just when you are abused, but it's also when significant needs are withheld or not provided.

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So this person grows up learning, I can't trust anyone, but I want to trust someone, but I can't.

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What if they break my heart? What if they are not able to meet my needs? Is it my fault? Is it because of me? So they have this constant battle in their mind where it's a negative view of self and a negative view of others, right?

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So that's kind of the overall perspective of attachment styles in the way that they view themselves and the way that they view other people.

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And again, just take that same template and apply that to God. If their relationship with their parents was that they never met their needs and that they had to depend on themselves, an avoidant person, an avoidant attachment to God would look like someone who says, you know,

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I believe in God, but you know, I got to where I am because of the things that I've done. I mean, I'm really smart,

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I'm really this, I am very competent. So all of these things that I have, yeah, God's good and He's given me some, but I've also worked hard for it, right?

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So this is the person who doesn't really have anyone to depend on. So they only understand them doing the work to get the results that they want.

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So I know God and I believe in God, but I don't trust Him enough to be vulnerable and intimate and seek a relationship with Him.

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Okay, so that would be the avoidance. So it's more of like a lack of faith and vulnerability and intimacy. And then there was also anxious.

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So that was, anxious was, I'm sorry, I'm like, my mind is slipping. That would be the lower view of myself and the higher view of others.

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Exactly. Like, why would God love me? What do I have to give to God, right? Who am I in this world, right?

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So God is great. I love, you know, He's a great person. He says

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He loves me, but I'm not lovable, right? Because no one in their world has shown them that they're lovable and they have that negative view of themselves already.

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So they see God, they respect God, they understand that God is good, but they don't really experience that with Him because of their anxious attachment style.

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They don't have a level of consistency to believe that, right? This is a person who could read scripture that talks about God's goodness and about His presence and about His faithfulness and all of those things.

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And they could see it and read it and believe it, but they don't feel like they're worthy to experience that with God.

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So gosh, they become anxious. They feel like it's about them. This reminds me of the conversation we had yesterday.

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Yeah. I realize now how much I told you yesterday on the podcast. You're like, anxious attachment.

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Got it. Okay, keep going. So now secure attachment with God. What would that look like?

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Okay. So secure attachment with God would be, okay, I'm worthy of love. You know, my parents have shown me that they can meet my needs.

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My needs will eventually be met, even though right now it doesn't look like it. But because I know that God is faithful and because I know that He is good and because I know that He is just, at the right time,

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He will give me what I need, right? So this is a person who could be going through a time of suffering, but because they have such consistent behaviors of people meeting their needs, it's an easy leap to read scripture and see those verses that talk about God's goodness,

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His faithfulness, and His providence and believe it because that's all they've ever experienced.

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So they have a high view of God, positive view of God, and a positive view of themselves. They don't see themselves as unworthy.

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They understand the biblical aspect of being a sinner, but they don't see themselves as, oh, God would never love me.

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They say, no, God says in His Word that He loves me. I believe it. I've experienced it. And I know that He's used people in my life to show me how much

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He loves me. It could be my parents. It could be a best friend. It could be a pastor. It can be anyone in their life.

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But they see the world through the secure lens of God loves me and the way that He's demonstrated that to me is through these people in my life.

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That is absolutely mind -blowing, but you've just mapped that out so well. So thank you, Sam. Was this so mind -blowing for you when you realized this and you put this down in words?

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I mean, just in your field, was this kind of revolutionary or what was the response when you kind of put this together?

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Because I've never heard this before. Yeah, well, it was the first time I had heard it with my professor and I was just shocked.

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I was like, yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? As we're talking about it, it's like, yeah, that makes sense. If all

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I've ever experienced is fear and disappointment in my relationships, why would I believe that God is trustworthy?

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If I don't have any real -life examples of what trustworthiness is, how can I make that lead to just reading scripture and believing it?

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Now, there are the examples of people who have, through the Holy Spirit, have been convicted of sin and then they learn to depend on God because obviously now we have the

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Spirit of God living inside of us. So God awakens us to those things. But the majority of life is our experiences with people, right?

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We're made to be in community. When we're made in God's image, God in his being is a triune

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God. He's Father, Son, Holy Spirit, right? So he's a community within himself. So when we read that we're made in God's image, it makes sense why we so desperately seek relationships.

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We so desperately seek acceptance and completeness because that is God's nature.

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He is complete and fully understands himself as a trinity, as the one, right?

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His oneness. So all of those things, it makes sense why we relate and why we seek that community so much.

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Wow, I love the way you just put that, Sam, is that God is his own community of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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You know, he has this triune of like a fun group of three. And with that, we already have, you know, three people that we can be in community with.

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I mean, you know, just me and my three best friends, like that's a good time. And with those people, I want the most secure, trusting, loving relationships with.

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So when we approach God, we are technically, yeah, approaching our quote unquote best three friends and coming to them in what type of relationship style, what type of communication style, and how do we view them?

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You mentioned something about like the Father, you know, understanding God as a Father. This concept, you know, is tough,

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I think, because God is so many things. He's a protector, he's a provider, he's a father, he's a friend.

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And, you know, as an early Christian, it's kind of hard to imagine that in one person. There's not typically one person that plays all of those roles for us.

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But as a father, you pointed out that this is kind of a new concept when it came to the

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Israelite culture that prior to Christianity and Jesus, you know, seeing God as the Father was new.

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It wasn't something that they typically did. Could you kind of give some background on that topic? Yeah, yeah.

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And let me preface that, and I know we've talked about it before your audience as well, is that my background and specialization is in counseling and psychology and attachment theory and so on.

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So I'm not a biblical scholar, but I can read scripture and try to gain an understanding of what's happening in the text and so on.

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Actually, there's a really good book, and even I think it's how to make the most of reading your

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Bibles. I have it over here somewhere. But it's a really good demonstration of how to read through scripture and see it and make observations and so on.

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So with that being said, one of the observations made about this aspect of God as a

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Father is that the words themselves, we see it in a couple of verses, and I think

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I sent you some. So we see some in Isaiah, we see one in Jeremiah, some in Malachi, right? So I'll read some of these.

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Isaiah 63, verse 16. For you are our Father through Abraham, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us, you,

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O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer of old is your name. So we see a reference here from the

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Prophet Isaiah mentioning this aspect of God our Father, right? 64, 8. But now,

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O Lord, you are our Father, we are the way, you are our potter, and we are all the work of your hand.

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And Malachi 2, 10. Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithful to one another in the name of our

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Father? So we see these references to God as our Father, but probably what we see more often in the

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Old Testament is the children of God. The Old Testament kind of understood themselves or the

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Israelites that they were children of God, which would imply that God was their Father, right?

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But we don't see that language as much in the Old Testament of them referring to him as Father.

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And remember that they would use a high priest to connect or to repent of their sins with God, right?

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And that was, I think it was done once a year. So that was really their own connection with God. And, you know, just to make a quick leap, and with Jesus, he kind of breaks through all of that.

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He says, now you can have a personal relationship with God through me, his son, which is why I came to earth.

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So now they have direct access to God, which Hebrews, I think it's Hebrews 12. So they have direct access to God.

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Us modern day Christians have direct access to God. At that time, they didn't. So the culture played a huge role in how they even saw their relationship with God.

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You know, God was the creator. He was the Father. He was the one who provided for them, who made miracles, right?

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Who protected them. So you see that when they had to battle of the nations and so on. So they understood all of that, but I don't know.

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And again, this is where my colleagues and scholar friends of Old Testament can correct me, but they didn't, they didn't know, or they didn't have that personal relationship individually with God as a nation.

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They had it with God, but I don't know if they were able to experience or if they experienced it relationally. So we have

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Abraham with God and we have all the fathers and so on that they had that, but they were representatives of God to the people, right?

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So that's an area where I think my friends and colleagues can speak to about, yeah, I mean, did they experience

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God in the same way that we would today? Absolutely. And I think you're just bringing up a lot of points. I mean, this is a discussion.

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You have an areas area of expertise. Thanks for showing me your limits. I mean, there's no, I'm not trying to corner you into giving me a response, but like, if you think about it, there's the

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Israelites that are experiencing God through a priest or through a messenger like Abraham or Moses who are experiencing

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God in firsthand. And if you had a father that you only talked to through his secretary, like what kind of attachment style do you have with that father on earth?

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The same way, you know, like Moses or Abraham are experiencing completely different version of God because they're experiencing him in real time.

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They're speaking directly to him. And those are the lens of which, you know, the stories of the Bible are told. And then if you kind of put it in a modern sense, we've got the way that we experience

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God today, which does feel much more disconnected. We have way more distraction. It seems like all three, you know, an

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Israelite through a priest, Abraham, Moses, those characters that experienced him in front of him. And then us today with this bit of disconnect, if we're going to be honest, those are three different types of relationships.

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Those are three different attachment styles, just due to the level of closeness that's allowed. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely.

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That's a great point. But you know what? Another thing that we can add to this is think about when

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Moses or Abraham, they would talk to the people, right? Let's say pick Moses, for example. The people are seeing

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Moses' relationship with God. So they have a template in a sense of, oh, this is what it looks like, right?

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Yes, Moses is presenting us and he's speaking on God's behalf and on our behalf, but we're seeing what a relationship with God can look like.

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And similarly today, we can observe other people who have a relationship with God and say, you know what?

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I want that. You know, the benefit that we have is we have direct access to God when we become saved through his son,

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Jesus Christ, right? So we have that when we become believers. So we are able to learn how other people attach to God and we can pick up on that and we say, oh, you know what?

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I was missing. So personally, what I was missing was the relational piece. I had a cognitive understanding of who

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God was. I grew up in the church. I was taught scripture. I was taught doctrine, but I didn't have that personal relationship with Christ.

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And that's what I saw in other people. I'm like, how do I get that? And, you know, as we discussed a little bit is that sometimes suffering is what kind of pushes us to seek

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God in a much more personal way, right? And interestingly, one of the things that we learn about attachment is your attachment system is activated when you encounter a stressor within the relationship, right?

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Oftentimes I'll see people, they'll say something like, oh, I have a secure attachment style. And I say, well, how do you know?

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And I say, well, you know, we really get along great and, you know, everything's going well and this, this, and that, right? Things are positive.

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But what happened when you guys have a conflict? Oh, we haven't had a conflict. Okay. Well, you kind of have to wait till that happens because the conflict would be the stressor.

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So let's say they have a conflict and all of a sudden the person just kind of loses it. They feel anxious.

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They can't stop thinking about the problem that they're having. They want to fix it right away, but the other person doesn't want to, right?

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That's when you see the attachment system activated. There needs to be a stressor within the context of the relationship for you to see what a person's attachment style actually is.

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So similarly in our relationship with God, you understand how, how your attachment to God is based on the stressor that you encounter.

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So for example, let's say the loss of a child or the loss of a best friend, right?

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So you lose your best friend. So there's two responses, maybe more, right? But two typical response could be,

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God, why did you allow this to happen? This is the person that I love the most. This is the person I've known for years and now they're gone.

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You're not good anymore, right? So that would show and avoid an attachment style because they, they don't know the person that, you know, the person of God, who he is to them in their life.

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So they pull away. A secure attachment would say, Lord, I don't understand why this happened.

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I know that you have a purpose behind this, but right now I'm really hurting. Please comfort me. I don't know what to do with this situation, but I'm in a lot of pain and I need you to help me through this, right?

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That's a secure response because they know that even though something bad has happened in their life, God has been present and he has been faithful and he has been committed to their good through him.

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So that's how you see there needs to be a stressor that activates how one chooses to attach to their, to their

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God or to other people in their lives. Is there an anxious example for that version? Yeah. So an anxious attachment style could be, what did

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I do wrong to deserve this Lord? What did I do? Where did I mess up? You decided to take away my, my best friend or take away my child.

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What did I do? They had to be, it was three years ago when I did that bad thing, right? When I disrespected this person or when

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I gossiped about this other person or when I lied to, to my spouse or to this person or to that person, right?

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All of these things, they start blaming themselves and trying to find the problem that they did that made the

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Lord punish them in a specific way. So that is the anxious attachment. They'll look at,

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I did something wrong, right? Kind of going back to that negative view of self. I did something wrong. I deserve this because I did

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A, B and C, right? But sometimes life just happens, right? Life just happens sometimes and there may be no reason behind it, but it does allow us to see who we depend on and who we turn to during times of distress.

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And that's the attachment. Yeah. Yeah. This is really illuminating and just the ways that you may have, or I may have, you know, just like a flashlight pointing out, you know, like how am

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I reacting to God when I have that source of conflict or don't get what I want? Or, you know, he, he takes away something that I really wanted or puts me through something that I like really struggled with.

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This is amazing. Can you think of a person in scripture and see if we'd be able to figure out what their attachment style to God?

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Oh, I like that. That's a fun game. I was thinking about Jonah, actually, when you were talking because Jonah was so reluctant to, to go talk to those people and the message.

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Oh gosh, now I can't remember the name of the country, but he didn't want to do it. He, the Ninevites, yes.

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And Nineveh, he, he got on a ship and went the opposite direction. And even when he got there, he was like 40 days and the land will fall.

26:56

Like he just like said it really, really quickly. And he just like, did not want to obey God. So to me, that would tell me that he's avoidant.

27:05

Yeah. Yeah. Great illustration. Great illustration. Like the stressor was, I want you to send the message.

27:10

And what was his response? I'm going to avoid it. You know, I don't want to do it. Right. If there was a secure attachment, you trust the person that's telling you to go send the message.

27:19

If it's anxious, he would have done a Moses where Moses was like, Lord, I'm not capable.

27:24

I'm not worthy. I don't have the words. I'm not able to speak. Right. So he was putting it on himself. Moses was.

27:30

And Jonah, he could deliver the message. He just didn't want to do it. Right. So he was avoidant in that situation.

27:37

Moses would have shown kind of like an anxious attachment style because he's kind of looking at himself and saying, I'm the problem.

27:42

I'm not worthy enough to go do this. Pick someone else. I'm not the person. Right. So it's a me issue, negative view of self, positive view of God.

27:50

He didn't question God's character in that moment. It was just, it was about me. Like I'm not capable to do what you're calling me to do.

27:58

Right. So that would be an anxious attachment. Okay. Then would you say Job was secure?

28:03

Yeah. Yeah. Job, you could, you could know he has that. And here's the cool thing too, right?

28:08

Cause there's this argument happening between Job and God, right? In a secure attachment, you're able to have those tough discussions and trust that their relationship is still going to be okay.

28:21

Right. In a secure attachment, in a secure relationship, you can have tough conversations, right?

28:27

I mean, it's the typical piece of advice that we receive, right? Like it's not that couples don't have arguments.

28:33

It's how they have those arguments. Like how do they speak to each other? What's the tone? What's the posture? All those things.

28:39

So you can have a discussion or argument about something and be respectful and kind, right?

28:45

And not fear that you're going to lose the relationship. So people who are secure in their attachment can have those discussions and know that at the end of it, they still love each other and they still care for each other.

28:56

And they're still going to be there for each other. An anxious attachment is not going to think that. They're going to think, what did

29:01

I do wrong? Oh, they're going to leave me. I'm not good enough for them. Oh gosh, why did I say that?

29:07

I shouldn't have said that, right? And the avoidance guy is going to be like, I don't care. I'm done with this. I'm better on my own.

29:13

I don't need anyone. So they kind of take that approach. So again, similarly, we carry those same patterns in our relationship.

29:22

Yeah. That is really interesting. And Joe was almost a little tricky because he goes through so many emotions of like,

29:29

I'm faultless. Why is this happening to me? It almost is like, nope, you got it wrong, God. And then when

29:34

God humbles him in the last chapters, he really does like, you're right. How could I possibly fathom the reasoning behind what you've done?

29:41

But again, he never questions his worth or devalues himself. He really does stand up for himself and then is able to humble himself when he realizes he's in the wrong.

29:50

Exactly. And that's a great point. It's the realization, right? Because we're human. We make mistakes. We're not going to be perfect in how we respond.

29:57

But what you realize is that after the offense, they seek reconciliation. They seek understanding.

30:04

Yeah. And they want to reconnect. And that's part of being in a secure relationship. Yeah. Let's talk about the role of Jesus and kind of how he broke down and created closeness to God in the ways that maybe previous

30:17

Near Eastern civilizations weren't able to do because it was through a priest or through Moses or through Abraham.

30:23

But with Jesus, that changed because now it was much closer. It was the embodiment of God in a person that they could then experience in real time.

30:30

How does that impact the relationship you're still trying to have with God the Father? But now you have Jesus in front of you.

30:36

What kind of impact does that have on the attachment style you're trying to build with God when you've got the physical person in front of you?

30:42

It's so hard to describe this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because the biggest prompt the

30:48

Pharisees and the Sadducees had with, more so the Pharisee, I guess, had with Jesus was that he claimed to be

30:53

God. That was their big prompt. The person who had provided for us, who had protected us, who had been there with us through all of these dark seasons and centuries prior to this time, you're saying that you're him.

31:06

And that was hard for them to understand. They didn't want to understand. They didn't understand.

31:13

And so Jesus starts talking to him in parables and he starts modeling for them what the relationship with God the Father looks like.

31:18

He calls God his Father. So all of these things that he's doing, that's just for people that are listening to him, was confusing.

31:24

It's like, who says these things? Right? So when Jesus starts talking to them and they get into some research on the prayer, that there were prayers that they were already having towards God, right?

31:37

That everyone had their own prayer. But when Jesus was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane and he says,

31:44

Abba, Abba, Father, and there's a lot of conversation around this. Apparently, some people think of Abba as being like Dad or Daddy or having like a familial environment.

31:53

But when some other fathers were arguing was, well, it wouldn't make sense to think

31:58

Daddy, Father. Some of the people who were arguing for what does Abba actually mean, so some people were saying, you know, it's a more intimate way of communicating with God.

32:09

It's more personal, right? It kind of means Dad or Daddy, but it doesn't capture the full effect of what

32:15

Abba, Father means, is what other scholars would argue. And what they said was, is that Abba doesn't just mean

32:21

Daddy or doesn't just mean Dad. It means, Father, I will obey you. And he said, Abba is not merely about intimacy.

32:29

It's also about authority. And so I'm reading that. I'm like, wait, well, that makes a lot of sense because when

32:35

Jesus is having the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, he's saying, Abba, Father, and what does he have to do?

32:42

He has to follow, exactly, obey to what? To the point of death, to the cross.

32:48

So that makes a lot of sense, right? And so the implication is that it's not just this personal intimate relationship with God, but also because of that intimacy,

32:58

I'm going to obey you. And that's what every parent, you know, wants. They want the love plus the obedience, right?

33:05

And sometimes we sacrifice one over the other either. There's some parents who go full obedience and, you know, don't care about the relational aspect with their children and others just care about the love piece without applying discipline or demanding obedience in a sense.

33:19

But you've got to balance both out, right? Because when you love people, you do things that are pleasing to them.

33:25

And what would please the Father is that the son would be obedient to the point of death because that is what would restore the relationship of man back to God the

33:34

Father, back to God. So those are the implications. So again, just kind of representing for us what a secure relationship is, is that the things that you're doing for each other, it's a matter of the will.

33:47

Like you're choosing to do those things because you love the person that you're doing them for, right?

33:52

In a secure relationship, you don't just do things. You do things that you may not like, but you do things also because you love the person.

34:00

You're committed to the person. You want to see them happy, right? And I think in culture today, we just kind of miss the mark.

34:06

Like there's so much emphasis on you need to be happy and you need to do this. And if you're not happy, then just leave the relationship, like all these things.

34:13

Like, I don't know if I would say that Jesus was happy when he was crying and bleeding and suffering on the cross, but he understood that that was necessary for us to be restored to our relationship with him, right?

34:29

I don't know if Moses was happy about being sent to speak to Pharaoh when he didn't feel he was capable of doing so.

34:37

Jonah definitely wasn't happy. Abraham wasn't happy to go and sacrifice his son, but he did it, right?

34:43

So there's this love and there's this obedience, and that is part of a secure relationship, things that we do for each other because we love each other.

34:53

Oh my gosh. Beautifully said, Sam. Wow. You were mentioning the way that people prayed.

34:58

Yeah. Yeah. The way that people prayed, did that change with the coming of Jesus and how he said, this is how you pray, our father who art in heaven.

35:07

Was that a new concept that really showed people the closeness that they could get to God, or was that very common, do you think?

35:13

Yeah. No, I think the prayer itself was common. I think the biggest distinction was this aspect of Abba Father and what that meant.

35:20

It seems like that that wasn't used, that part wasn't used as much, I think because it was a word from a different language.

35:28

Again, my scholarly friends have to check me out on that. Of course. But it doesn't seem like it was too uncommon.

35:37

It was just that aspect of Father, I will obey you, right? Got it. And also, again, the biggest thing too was that the

35:44

Pharisees just, they didn't like Jesus in general because he communicated that he was

35:50

God. So they didn't like that, even though he was. And also, if you compare how the

35:56

Pharaohs and the Sadducees, how they saw God and how Jesus saw God, those are two very different relationships.

36:02

One knows of God, knows everything about God, but lacks that intimacy. Whereas Jesus has nothing but intimacy, but also knowledge.

36:11

And I think that's something that you've spoken about in the past is there's a difference in the attachment theory when you know somebody, but don't know them intimately in the sense of vulnerability and communication and closeness.

36:23

Could you speak a more on that? Yeah. Yeah. Let me see. So there's the question that what leads to a secure relationship with other people, like our knowledge of people?

36:33

Yeah. The question is more so the difference in attachment to those that you just know versus the difference in attachment to those that you're actually close to.

36:42

How do we see God versus how do we feel about God? There's a major difference there. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah.

36:47

So that touches on two terms that we see a lot in attachment theory, and one is called the

36:54

God image and the other is called the God concept. The God image has to do with our experience of God, right?

37:02

How do we feel when we talk about God? Do you feel anxious? Do you feel happy, excited, joyful, scared?

37:10

Like what do you feel about God when you talk about him or when someone talks about him, right?

37:16

So that would be the God image. The God concept is what we think about God and what we know about God.

37:22

So there's some people that have a really good God concept, but their God image struggles a little bit. Like they may know a lot of things about God, but they fear him because maybe they rely, what they know about God is just that he is a just and righteous

37:35

God and that he's going to execute punishment on those who deserve it. So they see themselves as that person.

37:42

So even though that is part of God's character, that's not all of God's character, right? They focus on that part and therefore they feel scared.

37:49

So their God image, their experience of God is fearful, but their God image is that he is just and righteous and willing to judge.

37:58

So there's other - So that would be, I want to say like a religion that's really based on the rituals of the religion versus like the actual relationship of the religion.

38:06

Yes, that's exactly what it is. So you'll see a lot of that in more, I'm going to say, religions that have a lot of practicing or doing of things, legalistic churches, they will have kind of that same concept.

38:20

Like good understanding of God, good knowledge of God, but their God image, it struggles. They're very fearful of God or they only see

38:27

God as judgment. They themselves can be very harsh, right? That's just kind of what they experience because that's the environment, that's their culture, right?

38:34

Cultural background plays a huge role. I come from a Latino background. So Latinos, they tend to be a little bit more harsh, more straightforward, more direct.

38:44

And so when you grow up in that type of environment and you have your fathers and uncles who are similar in that way, it makes sense for us to see

38:51

God as that way. Like God is tough and he's strong and he's, if you misbehave, he's going to punish you, right?

38:57

That makes sense, but that's not all of God's character. So as we study scripture more and more, we start to see, oh, but you know what?

39:04

God is also patient with me. Like I messed up a lot and he is so patient with me. Like if I was my own kid,

39:10

I would not be as patient with me, right? So we have this different concept of ourselves and we just start to appreciate

39:16

God's patience a lot more, his mercy, his grace. So then we start to have a more fuller understanding of who

39:23

God is. So my God image starts to change. My experience of God is not fearful anymore.

39:28

Now it's restful. Like I know that God loves me. I know that he cares for me. And I know that the reason why

39:34

I'm living my life the way that I do is because I want to please him. And it's not because I fear that if I don't do

39:40

A, B, and C, that God is going to punish me in some way, shape or form, right? If something bad happens to me,

39:46

I'm not immediately going to think, well, God is punishing me. And that's typically what an anxious, attached person would do.

39:53

God is punishing me because I did something wrong and that's why I'm going through this. So it shows me that having a relationship with God, like although routine and regiment and ritual, when it comes to a relationship with God in certain religions, it serves a purpose of kind of understanding the concepts of God from an educational standpoint.

40:12

But when it really gets into the meat of a relationship and having that secure attachment to God, it requires that deeper level of that relationship of having closeness and intimacy and vulnerability of not just going to communion, for example, every single

40:26

Sunday or going to confession every single Sunday, but also coming to God outside of those moments, outside of that regiment and routine.

40:34

I'm just going to keep using these R words, but going to him outside of that of like, this is who I am. It's not that I have to do

40:40

A, B, and C to connect with you and that's how it works, but I'm just going to pray to you right now. I'm just going to pray to you through a friend.

40:47

I'm just going to come to you humbly. I guess I'm just referring to like prayer, but I mean, am I missing something here?

40:52

Is it going to different churches that would create that intimacy with God and that image of God would be improved?

40:58

In my household, I feel like it was so clearly distinctive of like, my mom was non -denominational, all about the relationship, very charismatic, all about the prayer, all about the worship.

41:08

And maybe that's another example. And my dad was Russian Orthodox. So it was all routine. Every church service was the same, very regimented.

41:17

And again, that could just be their personality types. And that's why they both resonated with it alongside upbringing, obviously.

41:23

But if like somebody like my dad wanted to grow closer to God and improve the

41:28

God image of who God is, it would require going to church, going through everything in that service because he enjoys it, but also seeking

41:36

God personally outside of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's really comes to an understanding of one's emotion, right?

41:43

So background -wise, instead of Russian or Ukrainian, right?

41:49

And what is a common cultural understanding of what a man or a woman is within those cultures that plays a role in it, right?

41:58

So for example, to be stoic, right? Or to not pay attention to your emotions, that person is going to have a much different emotional experience, a

42:07

God image than someone who grew up in a house where emotions were valid and accepted and expressed and acceptable, right?

42:16

So for someone who's the unemotional, their relationship with God is going to look unemotional, right?

42:24

So - Interesting. So their focus on God image is not going to be necessarily important to them, or it's not going to be a significant factor for them.

42:33

They're going to think that because they just never learned that, right? You were supposed to be unemotional.

42:39

So they're going to focus on the aspects of God that are unemotional, right? So the only thing that that covers is justice, because that's supposed to be right down the middle, right?

42:50

You need to be fair. So that's justice. You need to execute justice. You need to express truth.

42:55

That makes sense to them because there's no emotion tied to it. But let's say you have someone else who grew up in a very emotional home where feelings were the main thing.

43:04

Like your feelings were the most important thing. You have to feel happy. I'm going to do everything that I can to make you feel happy.

43:10

And you come to church and you don't feel that way. And if you don't feel that way, what do you think? You think there's something wrong.

43:16

You think, this is not the God that I know, right? Because there's no emotion involved. So it could be good doctrine, good understanding of who

43:23

God is. But if you don't feel a certain way, you think that something's wrong. Why? Because you grew up in a home where your emotions were the most important thing.

43:32

This is insane. I just had a friend come visit me and stay with me. And she was like, can we go to Catholic mass?

43:38

I'm like, yeah, we can totally go to Catholic. I don't go to Catholic mass. But like, if that's what you want, we could, let's go ahead.

43:43

There's a really beautiful cathedral here. And so we go, we do the thing. It's awesome. It's beautiful.

43:49

But again, very different from my church. My church, we are singing, there's a band, there's a drummer, you know, like there's a sermon.

43:56

It's very emotional. My church, this church, Catholic mass, I've been to tons of masses, but this one again, like very routine, unemotional.

44:03

And I asked her afterwards, I was like, you're not really a spiritual person. You know, why did you, why are you

44:08

Catholic? I didn't realize that you were a Catholic at all. And she, her response was exactly that. She's like, I just like, love how clear and focused and like straightforward this is.

44:17

And I don't think it's saying like hers is better, mine is better. It just makes sense what you just said,

44:22

Sam, of like, if that's how you approach religion and like your relationship with Christ of being something that is straightforward and focused and Stoic, then yes, something like Catholic Catholicism or Russian Orthodox would make more sense for you to go to that service versus a charismatic or a

44:38

Southern Baptist or a non -denominational church. Exactly.

44:44

This is blowing my mind. And so it really is that like nurture and upbringing and kind of how you view your attachment style to religion as a whole is going to formulate your attachment style to God.

44:57

And are you going to have a more serious relationship with him or a more vulnerable relationship with him?

45:03

And that's just based on the emotions that you attach to a God figure. Exactly. Yep. That's exactly. And think of all the layers that we've covered that influence your

45:12

God attachment. We talked about your parents. We talked about authority figures. We talked about your background culture wise.

45:19

And then we talk about just modern culture in general. Then we talk about religiosity and that those are the behaviors that we do to connect with God.

45:27

And then we talk about spirituality, which is what we what we think about God. Right.

45:33

And then so we've covered right there like five, six layers of things that influence our attachment to God, not to mention romantic relationships.

45:42

Imagine if you go through a series of broken relationships, at some point you start to believe that there's something wrong with you or something wrong with other people.

45:50

Right. And what happens then if you have multiple ruptures in your relationship with God, you start to believe that either something's wrong with God or something's wrong with you.

46:00

Right. And you'll lean one way or the other. That's why the example of Joe was perfect, because he had so many things happen to him and had the argument with God.

46:10

And he realized, again, God. So, so many factors that influence how we how we view

46:17

God and how we view our relations with people. Oh, my gosh. And just to bring back in the father aspect, would you say the same logic applies to, you know, if I'm going to treat my religion with more stoicism and seriousness, then

46:29

I'm going to see father, you know, the father figure in that way and in that light as well, the same way, you know, with emotional vulnerability, the same type of father.

46:37

And it sounds like kind of before Jesus, that view of even of a father was very stoic, very detached, but very serious.

46:45

And then Jesus brought that emotion back into it of like a father you can connect to and speak to and, you know, relay your issues to.

46:53

He was not so disconnected. He's in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. And Cass, you bring up a point that we talked about.

46:59

I think this was a while back. I don't know if it was on our on your life, but we talked about the compensation model and the correspondence model.

47:06

Do you remember that? Or maybe maybe I briefly touched on it. But this was a concept that kind of speaks to what you were alluding to is that our relationship with our father.

47:15

So my dad was he wasn't stoic, but he you know, he was kind of like the tough guy, you know, work provider and protector.

47:23

Right. That was that was him. That was my dad. I almost never saw him cry. Maybe I seen him cry two or three times.

47:29

So the emotional piece I didn't really understand in regard to my relationship with God.

47:36

Right. So what the compensation model would suggest is that whatever I last seen in my upbringing or in my relationship with God as a as a child, my relationship with my dad,

47:47

I'm sorry, as a child, God would compensate with that for that by showing me something different when

47:52

I would get older, meaning that he would show me the other side, his grace, his love, his patience.

47:58

Right. So typically in the research, what you find is people who did not grew up in a

48:04

Christian home, they experienced the compensation model, because when they come to the Lord later on in life, everything that they feel that they lacked in their relationships with their parents,

48:13

God compensates for that by providing that in their adulthood security, getting their needs met, whether that be through people or when they come to know the

48:21

Lord personally through faith in Christ. So they feel that God compensates for all of the lack that they have throughout their lives.

48:29

Right. So that would be a compensation model. The correspondence model is more of whatever your parents modeled for you growing up, and is what we've been talking about for the most part on our show today, on the show today, is that whatever your parents modeled for you, that's going to be the same way that you're going to view

48:44

God when you get older. So if your parents were harsh, judgmental, critical, and all those things, you're going to see

48:53

God as harsh, judgmental, and critical. But if your parents were kind, patient, loving, and understanding, you're going to see

49:02

God, as you get older, as kind, patient, loving, and understanding. And that's typically for people who grew up in the church.

49:09

So they were growing to church, their parents go to church, so whatever their parents modeled for them throughout their childhood, leading into adulthood, that's what they're going to understand of God as they get older.

49:19

So the compensation model is more so for those that didn't get raised in the church.

49:27

Yes, yes. In the research, that's kind of how they observe it. They usually look at people who did not grow up in religion or very little of it.

49:34

So when they do come to know the Lord, they do encounter religion when they get older, they see it as a compensation, like, man, what was

49:40

I, I missed out on all of this, this community, prayer, all of these things that I needed as a child, and now

49:47

I'm receiving it as an adult. So they feel like they've been compensated in their relationship with the Lord for things that they didn't have in their childhood.

49:55

There've been so many topics covered in this one episode, I don't even know what to name it, to be honest, that I feel like my mind's been blown.

50:02

So thank you for shedding so much insight into the different levels of relationships that we can have with the Lord. Sam, I really, really appreciate the time here.

50:09

Also, I'm really excited for all of the episodes that are coming out soon with Psych and Theo. I'm very excited to see the episode come out with God Attachment Healing.

50:17

What kind of episodes and topics are you going to be covering for both of those podcasts coming out that anybody listening and they want to learn more that they can look forward to?

50:24

Yeah, well, thank you for the shout out. I really appreciate that. So Tim and I are currently working on a number of series for Psych and Theo, and we're currently on break.

50:33

So we finished season one. We're going to move into season two in a couple of weeks, and we're doing a series on manhood.

50:39

We're talking about some controversial topics. We're doing one on abortion. What else are we talking about?

50:45

Oh yeah, that's going to be - You guys are fearless on this podcast. Oh my gosh. You know, it's the conversations that people are having, but they don't have these two -

50:56

That's true. The whole purpose of our podcast was exactly that, to speak about it from what are the psychological effects of abortion, and what are the theological implications of this as well.

51:08

So there are those things that people don't like to talk about, but when we do talk about it, we gain so much insight and understanding.

51:15

What does the Bible actually say, and what does the research actually talk about the effects on us as people?

51:21

So we try to tackle these topics that are difficult, I think, for most people to have, but obviously with Tim and I, we've created the culture,

51:30

I guess, within our podcast of being able to discuss these issues. Obviously, some people don't like some of our topics.

51:37

We did one on gender identity, and that was popular, but it is what it is.

51:43

Those are the conversations that we need to have. So those are a couple of things that we'll be talking about on Psych and Theo, and in regard to God attachment healing,

51:50

I'm finishing up the attachment styles. This week, I'll do the disorganized or the fearful avoidance, and then next week,

51:57

I'll have the one I did with you, and we'll talk about God attachment and parental upbringing. Yep, yep.

52:02

That's so exciting, and I agree. I think that Psych and Theo is amazing. Just the fact that you guys can dive into these biblical aspects and say, well, listen, this is what the theology says about it, and this is what the psychology says about it, and at the end of the day, how often do you get a psychologist and a theologian talking about a topic in a very calm and well -informed and educated manner, so it actually is a productive discussion.

52:25

It's not who's right and who's wrong. You guys are simply saying, this is what the Bible says, and this is what the data shows, and if you're trying to grow closer to Christ, this is kind of what we suggest is the best direction, but there's no hierarchy of right and wrong coming out of either one of you guys when you're discussing these topics that are very hot, and I appreciate the space for it because I think it's what we exactly need.

52:48

Yeah. Yeah, and Cass, and the thing about this too, these two fields, they were not anywhere near each other.

52:55

They were always flashing with each other. I was like, what are you talking about? You shouldn't be talking about human development because you don't understand the psychology behind it, and they would say, well, you don't understand how

53:06

God created us, so there should be no psychology in the church. Why even talk about that, right? It's kind of mirroring these two things together and showing that these two things can exist within a

53:17

Christian context, and we could understand what the implications are, right? So it's all the topics that are happening in culture, and again, we're just trying to shed light on these two areas of our fields so that people can have a full understanding of it, and I think -

53:34

Absolutely, and Psych and Theo, oh no, go ahead. Yeah, and I think I shared this with you yesterday regarding God -attachment healing is that now because I'm going to use it more so as my research space,

53:44

I'm kind of transitioning into, I still have attachment attached to it, but I'm also going to add forgiveness, shame, and a couple of other and religious, our religious coping, so those are going to be some new themes and new topics that you're going to see in God -attachment as well.

53:59

That's amazing, and you guys aren't just on Spotify. You guys are on Instagram, but am I missing anything? Are you guys on Apple?

54:05

Instagram, Spotify, Apple. Are you guys on TikTok, YouTube? We're going to start doing YouTube, so yeah, so once we get that down, hopefully we get our social media manager soon, and hopefully we'll be able to put out more content in different places.

54:17

Yeah, good for you guys. Well, I'm going to need a moment to honestly digest everything that we've discussed,

54:22

Sam, so thank you for just shedding light on things that I would have never had this conversation, how we not spoken.

54:27

I really appreciate it. I feel like you've illuminated a lot of different aspects of the relationship and kind of relationship we can have with God, but do you have any final words on just like encouragement?

54:37

I mean, maybe people that are like, I'm totally anxious. Am I doing religion wrong? Or I have just a good concept of God, but not a good image.

54:45

If somebody's listening to this and maybe feeling a little disheartened that they're not doing it emotionally as close as they possibly can, what would be your final message to them?

54:54

Yeah, no, that's a great, great question. I think one of the things that I would encourage them is to find people who you deem as secure in their relationship with God, and who also have a secure relationship with other people, because the way you correct an anxious attachment style or an avoided attachment style is by being exposed to more secure relationships.

55:13

So, you know, remember in school, we had that one friend who was trying to make friends with maybe the ones who were excluded from the big groups and so on, like that person, all it took was that person to invite them over to a game or invite them over for a party or to get together.

55:29

And all of a sudden, that person who was excluded feels part of the group now, right? It took one secure person to help this person over here who was excluded to feel now as part of the group.

55:40

So the way that you kind of correct the anxious or avoided attachment style is more exposure to secure people.

55:47

But with that being said, you have to develop a sense of a willingness to engage because sometimes when you engage with secure people, you feel, so the anxious person feels a little bit more intimidated by it, like, wow, this person has a lot of friends, they get along well, they're real productive, so they might feel a little bit intimidated by that.

56:05

So if you're an anxiously attached person, I would say it's okay, that's part of your attachment style, continue to engage, you just kind of have to break out of that discomfort and be in that discomfort for a little bit.

56:16

And as you practice that more exposure more and more, you'll start to learn these secure attachment behaviors.

56:21

And again, then you'll be able to practice them. For the avoidant, it's really just kind of developing, overcoming the sense of trust, like they don't trust people easily.

56:30

So they might see a securely attached person and be like, I think something's off with that person. They can't have that many friends.

56:36

They shouldn't be that successful, right? And plus I'm successful, I don't need another friend, I don't need them, right?

56:41

So for that person, I would encourage kind of the same thing. It's like, you know, give them a chance, just try and see what can develop from that relationship.

56:49

And you'll start to see what actually security can look like that. People can be trusted, it takes time, and they will take some time.

56:56

And yeah, just expose yourself more and see if you can find people that you would want to be with, people that you like, people that show that secure attachment style.

57:05

And once you get that exposure, transfer that over to your relationship with God. Wow, that is a beautiful place to end.

57:12

Thank you so much, Sam. I can't wait to listen on Psych and Theo and God Attachment Healing. I can't wait to have you back.

57:17

Let's find another reason to do a live or an episode because this conversation shouldn't stop. Absolutely. I'm always open.